I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my.
Ball in a brid egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Friday, Frida Egg, Brian Egg, fridagg Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your co host, Andy Johnson. I am joined by our other co host, Garrett Morrison. Garrett, welcome on.
You've demoted yourself to co host.
Well, if I'm hosting by myself, I say I'm the host.
I see.
But if I'm hosting with you, I would say I'm a co host because.
You're it's situational. Yeah, I also do host some Friday podcasts, but you did found this podcast, so I feel like you should be giving yourself the host title without the co.
Well today, I'm the co Okay. This is a joint, you know, and you're a humble man. It begs the question, if there's two hosts, do you have one?
If there's three hosts, do you have one. Joseph is also a host. He talked to Dodo that was hosting.
He is he's a new host has entered the ring. That was an interesting podcast. I like that really good. Yeah, people should listen to that one. In addition to listening to this one. Dodo explain the virtues of the old course.
Yeah. Who who would have thought that the old course would be would be one of the few strategic courses left, and that Augusta National would in fact be a good driving course. I mean we've we've heard all along that these are just hipster courses that only golf architecture nuts like. But it turns out that was that was not correct.
You know, this is completely off topic. We're going to do a golf architecture mail bag, but it was it was interesting just to hear how like you know, he's obviously data heavy pro golfer, just like the through line of all the things he likes about a golf course are fair. Like he likes the if the more you miss it offline, the more the penalty should be. Right, And the one thing that he doesn't like about about Augusta National is how how tight the line is?
You know, like how I'm thirteen and fifteen, Yeah.
Yeah, how if you can hit a great approach shot or a good approach shot in it, and it's penalized.
Right, I think, to Dodo's credit or in his defense, I guess the reason that he likes the graded penalties off the tee, Like, if you miss the fairway by a little bit, it's a little bit of a penalty. If you missed the fairway by a lot, it's a lot of a penalty. I think he likes that, not necessarily because it's fair, but because it makes play think in interesting ways on the tee. If the penalties are all kind of the same off the fairway, then there's
not much thinking to be done off the tee. If there are these different areas that are more penal than others, however, then some thought enters into club selection and target and all that for the pro golfer. That's something to keep in mind here is that he thinks of these things in terms of pro golf, and he acknowledges that as well.
But it brings to mind what I think is a great role for a modern golf architect who designs to or courses, and that is to retain a little bit of randomness and a little bit of unfairness, and an impulse to introduce some whimsy and some things that bother pros into their designs, because if they just do what pros like, then courses will become pretty predictable and manuscactured
the same. Right, So it's the architect's job to retain a little bit of that spirit of randomness and eccentricity in their designs, as well as learning what they can learn from modern pros and from analytics.
I mean, whimsy and things. All I can think about is the social reel. I just watched you do that about Saint George Golf and how dozens of people might be watching j tour event there is that?
Is that a whimsical moment for me? Yeah?
It was a whimsy call. It was. It was filled with whimsy and character. We can't allow we can't allow all of our golf course social reels just to become AI generated scripts. You know.
Yeah, we've We've been exchanged. It's a scourge on Instagram. I didn't even realize the proportions of it. Our colleagues Matt Rusius and Cameron Hurtis have been sending me Slack messages of all the different reels out there about Saint George Golf. Just these accounts that I've never heard of that have one hundred thousand followers and have completely AI generated or just soullessly chat bought written content. I can't believe what's going on on Instagram. What's happening here?
It's it's people could play it about acts, but but the the the Instagram accounts that are recommending golf courses without ever stepping foot on them is uh is amazing and.
Using not their footage, footage that they shot.
Yeah, well this they can take anything. That's the That's the world of the internet.
It's on.
Dot e A. Let's get into it, Donnie, do the mail bag.
Just to be clear, yea, extra clear to people. You mentioned this already, Andy. What we're doing here is a golf architecture mail bag. We put out a call for questions in Club tf E, which is Fridagg's membership, the Friday dot Com slash membership check it out. We put out a call for questions in there as well as on Twitter. So we're going to be doing a grab bag of questions from people about calf architecture.
This is why your co host, right rre some.
Some clarity, some scaffolding let's it's you.
Know, if I was the host and you were my guest, that's right that you wouldn't be That would be crossing a line you.
I wouldn't feel licensed.
So for stepping your bounds.
Have been totally rude. Yeah, absolutely, dot e A.
What did Garrett think of Highland Links on Cape Cod? This is from one of your recent trips.
Doni A. I really enjoyed Highland Links. For those who haven't heard of it, it's way out on Cape Cod.
Like so far yea, so far out, the.
Farthest golf course out by a lot on Cape Cod. It's pretty damn near Provincetown. So it's in a place where you just don't see many golf courses and where you wouldn't build a golf course now because it's National parkland for one thing, and a lot of that area is protected. But it's in a beautiful location, kind of on high cliffs above the ocean. You know. The word on Highland Links. The thing that people always say about it is that it's one of the few truly authentic
links golf courses in America. I'm not sure I would go that far that this isn't exactly sand dunes out here, but it is sandy soil, which is fun to see in the Greater Boston area because most of the courses there are built on rock and heavy clay. This is definitely lighter sandy or soil that this very old golf course is built on. So it's built long ago by
who knows which architect, basically an amateur architect. There is a name out there, I'm sorry, I don't know it, but it's just a humble nine hole course, public affordable to play, not super affordable to play, but you can go out there and pay a green fee and not feel like you've gotten fleeced. And it's just nine holes of very straightforward natural golf. The site is surprisingly hilly. That's one thing that kind of took me by surprise
when we were going around that golf course. There's a lot of up and down, but it's really all about location there and just the general vibe of playing golf on these beautiful, you know, sort of environmentally sensitive looking, very well preserved cliffs above the ocean next to a very old lighthouse. So just being out there was a
delight In terms of park, right, it's a national park. Yeah, and so we went out there and I went up to the pro shop person as I usually do at public courses that we want to shoot and haven't contacted people before, and I said, hey, do you think it would be okay if we flew our drone out here? And right at that moment my colleague Cameron realized at the same time that the pro shop person was telling me you can't fly a drone here because it's a
national park. Don't do that. It's against the law. You get in big trouble if you've done it. So if you see any Highland Links footage out there, chance somewhere on the internet. If you go, if somebody has drone footage of Highland Links, just keep in mind that they're not supposed to have that. But it's a very cool course. People should go and check it out for sure. In terms of golf course design, pure golf course design, a lot of nine whole courses in New England are more
sophisticated than this one. I would point to Old Salem Greens, which I saw on this same trip and kind of blew my mind how good it was. But just for an absolute throwback to golf as it was in an earlier time, Highland Links pretty cool place to go.
It seems like just the journey out there is the part of the allure of it too.
That's what I was excited about. We kind of we stopped in a town that's like just across the street basically from Highland Links, and went to a little market there to get some sandwiches, and they were super friendly, and it was just a whole well experience. You know, it's almost like island living out there because you're so far out on the cape.
Awesome, awesome.
All right, Andy, I have a question for you. Let's talk about walkability. Got an interesting question from Jake R. Schambeau in Club TF and his question is, basically, is it even fair to judge a walkable routing versus an unwalkable one. One of the most difficult things about routing a course is stitching eighteen holes closely enough together so it's walkable. So if a course doesn't accomplish that, it's not even playing by the same set of rules. So
I'll reframe the question slightly. If a course is unwalkable but otherwise really great, how do you go about assessing it? Is there a ceiling to how good a golf course can be if you can't walk it.
Yeah, I think if the I think this is an interesting question to me, if if you could have come up with a walkable routing, I think it's probably a slight to merit, but I think there are certain places, like on a mountain golf course, where he just might not be able to do it. A great Yeah, Capellou would be a great example. This is an architecture team that's made like you know, that's turned so many places that a lot of people thought were unwalkable into walkable
golf courses. And you know, from that standpoint, I do think it is so I think it's like kind of like like anything. I think there's an economy vale like the value of economy, and that's part of great golf architecture is being able to pack things in and provide a you know, a great eighteen hole experience over a you know, finite piece of property. You know you could you know, think about you could if you had sand hills.
Think about how spectacular the golf course could have been if you had five hole by hole with if you had had five minute cart rides between each hole right now.
And if you just go looking for like the best golf holes. Yeah, like there would have done that. Yeah, you would have taken that approach to the site for sure.
And you have like a five minute cart ride. But like the when you have them close together, that adds the experience of that kind of like flow to the round, which I think is super important. And that's like a subliminal thing that a lot of people might not realize, but like you know when you are when you're close together.
One thing I noticed recently. I played golf in a cart recently and it was a foursome and what we you like, you don't talk to each other very much, like I knew that, like you talk to the person in your cart, you don't talk as a group. But what I noticed we just spent more time on tea boxes and greens talking as a group because of it, like versus when you're walking right, you're like going from
area to area. But I think like the best thing is like when it's like a tight green to tea, you know when part of the beauty of that is like how you're you're all on the green together and you just like easily walk over to the tee and
you all together. The longer you walk if you're in a walking group, the more likely you you part likewise in a cart round, the closer the tee is to the green the next tee, the more likely you're going to park the cart close to the tee and you don't have to get back in the cart and move it to the te So there is like walkable courses are also better cartball courses because.
It's interesting point.
They keep you as as group together more with the proximity, right, it's more like.
Time spent in proximity and less just like driving by yourself.
Yeah, and you're able to carry conversations easier from green to tea. Like. Part of the reason you play golf is for that, like the conversation and the camaraderie with your group. And the better design the golf course is, the better routed it is as a whole, the more conducive of it is to that camaraderie.
Yes, there's a whole silent element to golf course design and routing that is social in nature. Having greens and teas close to each other, yes, between holes, but also between one part of the round and the other. That that whole social experience of a golf course that's designed that way is to me a lot more fulfilling than a golf course that prioritizes isolating holes from each other and making each hole feel like a world unto itself.
So there are many ways that golf course design and routing can enhance the social experience of being on a golf course, which I think most people would agree is the greatest thing about golf is getting to know other golfers and spending that long amount of time with them. I mean, when else do we get to spend that amount of time with people. Basically four hours straight or if it's slow out there, five hours straight. That's a
good amount of time to get to know somebody. It's a great social experience if you enjoy the people, and a golf course design that can certainly enhance that. But to get back to the question walkable courses versus unwalkable courses, do we give like a little bump to the walkable ones? I met out where you do where I look at the piece of land and consider what this course is trying to be. If it's a big time mountain course and it's hard to walk, then there's a reason for that.
The piece of land just wouldn't allow for a super walkable course to be built, and that is understandable. You look at a course like Wolf Creek and Mesquite which is so unwalkable that it's almost undrivable. There are parts where your cart is like skidding downhill at that course, it's like, it's pretty wild. I don't look at that course and say it's unwalkable, because it's almost redundant to say that. From the beginning, it was going to be
this kind of amusement park ride golf course. And it's cool that they got to build a course on this piece of land because you wouldn't be able to do it if we didn't have golf court golf carts. So there's that. But I find that when I'm thinking about how much I like a course, I give a subconscious bump to the ones that are a pleasant walk that are more walkable than others. I start giving a bump to courses that are flatter because I just more fondly
remember the experience of playing them. It took less out of me to walk them. It allowed me energy for other things, for looking at the architecture, for talking to my playing partners, for appreciating my surroundings. Because I wasn't putting f into the walk, I was able to enjoy so many other things. More I think of, of course, like caper Rundle, great golf course, I might overrat it a little bit.
I think I overrated it too.
I think there are aspects of that course that are maybe not great, Like the routing is kind of back and forth. Sometimes it's pretty flat out there. But one of the reasons I overrat it. Obviously, the greens are world class, and that's the whole thing about the course. But I think the reason I overrat it is that it's so easily walkable, and I fondly remember my experience there partly for that reason. So that would be my answer to that. I have a bias toward super walkable courses.
And I'm not sure whether I feel good about that or bad about that. It's just something I do.
All right, Let's take a quick break to talk about one of our partners, Stripe. This is a partner. We're a customer of Stripe. We love Stripe at Frida Egg. What Stripe does for us is it helps us run our business. It is effectively like our payment processing, so it allows our pro shop It allows our membership club TFE to function. It takes away a lot of our headaches. It helps us do this, It helps millions of other businesses of all sizes do these types of things. They
have a few products. They have the Optimized Checkout Suite. This is something that we use that has Stripe billing, so it lets you kind of invoice and bill like it. It can go get super complex. They help over three hundred thousand businesses more than anybody else do this. It's got advanced billing software to handle the most complex business models. A few enterprises, big companies you know, we use it. We're not really and I don't think they consider us
an enterprise customer. We got to see if we can get them to add us on here. But these are a few of the big companies. AMC might have heard of them. AMC Streaming uses them, Alask Airlines, BMW, Door Dash, Hurtz, Instacart, Lift, among many others. Zoom WordPress. We're a WordPress customer too, we have our website on WordPress. But anyways, these products
just help you go. If you want to learn more about this, if you're a business owner, you want to see how Stripe works, how Stripe can make your life easier visit stripe dot com. That's str ipe dot com thanks to Stripe. And let's get back to our podcast with Garrett Morrison. All right, Garrett, here is your next Your next question here from Jacob Spurgeon. I guess this is for both of us. What are some of the projects that will finish in twenty twenty five that you
two are most interested in? Also, yeah, we'll just start with that.
Oh yeah, he has an additional question there. Yeah, why don't we just quickly mention some ongoing projects that are interesting? All pick out two or three? You pick out two or three really high potential golf course being built in Minnesota by Ogilvy Cocking and Mead Tepatanka looks pretty awesome. I'm not sure exactly when they're planning to open, but I assume, since we're talking about Minnesota here, it's going to be when it warms up next year.
Honest, it could be.
It could be a little longer some of these courses that we're talking about as twenty twenty five courses. Timelines with golf course builds, especially right now that a lot of the contractors are are really busy and not necessarily available at the times that you predict that they'll be available at irrigation and drainage and all that stuff that you need to build a golf course. As a result of that, timelines are getting a bit messy, But that
course I have my eye on. I also am really looking forward to seeing what they do at wild Spring Dunes, which is the new Kaiser family project out in Texas. I think that looks like a fantastic piece of land. I'm curious to see what the architects that they're working with there will do with that land. It is the you know, the usual architects that the Kaiser family works with, initially Corn Crenshaw and Tom Doak, and so I think
those courses will be will be quite good. And then you know a project that might not be wrapping up in twenty twenty five. I'm not sure exactly what the timeline is. Cabot Pacific out in the wilds of British Columbia, I'm not sure when I'm going to get to this golf course, which you could say about a lot of a lot of Cabot owned resorts. It's pretty remote. But this is a whitman excellent and cutting golf course in
the mountains. I'm sure that there's going to be some inspiration from Stanley Thompson because of the the location and the environment and the architects involved. So that should be a fun project to follow as well. Possibly twenty twenty five. I know they're working on the course, but not sure exactly when when they're planning to open. What are you looking forward to.
One off the bat seven mile beach down in Tasmania. Absolutely, the photos, the land look out of this world.
Yeah, that not only location which is amazing, but also terrain. This is a course that's not only in a very cool seaside location kind of a spit of land right outside Hobart, but the terrain.
That's that's the thing that draws me. It just looks like great scaled golf. And I think you know, I was with Mike Devree a couple of weeks ago and he said it's like the best piece of piece of land for golf he's ever seen. And obviously, you know, if we went down, if we trust, if we said use that with every architect that's ever said there's something along those.
Courses.
Yeah, about two hundred of those. But I do I do trust Mike and what what do you say there? So that's one that is at the top of of kind of my list. Another one that I think just from you know, is Punta Brava, the Tom Doak Course uh In in Mexico. I don't know if it will be done. Sounds like that's just been a if.
You look at the land, you can see why it might not be done anytime soon.
Like a he calls it like part in our part archaeology project where they're doing like all this archaeology throughout it. That one is uh I mean, just like a spectacular little pocket of land. So those are the two that kind of stand out to me. Another one that I'm I'm excited to see that's probably like that, you know, just like a renovation project is Chevy Chase in Washington, d C.
With Sup Britain.
Yeah, and there's it's a renovation I you know, it was of course with like kind of a muddled history. A lot of different architects work there, and I think what I appreciate about it is like the idea of like, hey, we're not going to glorify that we were like at one point a six out of ten, you know, our best self we were, we were a six out of ten. We're just gonna and we're not going to go back to that. We're going to just go for it. We're going and we're going to build something cool, you know,
and different and unique. And I think this is like something that a lot of golf courses should do. Like even if Don Ross is on your on your name, say, is your name's sake? Like what what always? Like, you know, especially recently, has like confused me sometimes is like these golf courses, I'm not going to name names or anything here. Some of them have decided to, some are deciding to or in the process of deciding to. It's like we're gonna shut down for a year, spend fifteen million to
twenty million dollars. We're gonna come out just like fractionally better because of it, because we never were great.
Usually brighter green, brighter white, and the bunkers. Yeah, And that's pretty much it.
So like and I you know, I think part of the blame, most of the blame goes to the club. It's like keeping up with the Jones is type situation. Right now. It's like, well, somebody else is down the street and we're flushed with cash, so we need to do something. You know, we got to keep pace. But then also like the architects that are just you know, are just doing these renovations, and it's like, well like if I squint, I can I can see how it
gets a little better. But like, you know, I do believe like if you've got a good property and the golf course is just kind of meh, maybe let's look at like the property and say, what if we just go plan our foot and go in a different direction. Because this never has been one of the best courses in the area. And if we're gonna spend fifteen to twenty million dollars and we don't get one of the best golf course in the area, what are we doing?
And that's something I really appreciate about, Like what Madonna has done. The way Hazeltine is thinking about their project is like nothing's off the table. We know, like this is isn't great, but we know we can have something great. And I think, like, if you're gonna what like the trend of this golf of the recent movement is like full shut down. It's not just like you know, I I find I think you're in the same boat. I really like kind of like the the go go with
the flow. We're going to do a couple of things a year, and I understand like the pitfalls of that. If you want to do like a new bunker style like how it could be Hodgepodge and you know, you technically save money over time, you know, on the total
project cost if you shut down. But like on the flip side of it, I do think there's a lot of high profile, high high expense projects that are being done where you know, in some cases there is just a very very marginal improvement, and that improvement could be actually like viewed by some as a not improvement because the golf course just lost its like old character.
Well, I would say that the argument that you might save money or be more efficient by doing it all at once presumes that you will never again need to make changes to the golf course or that it will be perfect when it comes out of that initial process.
Part of the beauty of the more long term approach, which I agree is not appropriate in every single case, but part of the virtue of that is that you can test ideas over the long term, see what works on that site and with that golf course and learn from it, and eventually you end up with a course
that's kind of finished that doesn't need to be monkeyed with. Further, if you do things all at once, you're risking that it won't come out all that well and you'll need to kind of go back and fix it and spend more money and just keep doing these projects. And we've seen that happen at a lot of high profile courses. The courses that have the most money's are the ones that are most likely to be caught in this kind
of vicious circle. All right. Anyway, going back to Chevy Chase real quick, I think that people who look at Andrew Green's recent work and are like, I wish you would change it up a little bit, keep an eye on what he's doing at Chevy Chase. I think it might be it might be different there. And part of the part of what's going on there, I believe from what I've heard, is that you have a strong superintendent whom you and I know, Stephen Britain, and that is
a key collaborator in this process. And at any of these courses doing renovation work restoration work, the superintendent is a key voice and if they you know, are just kind of like they just want the usual stuff. Then the usual stuff is what they're going to get. But if they pushed for something new, something specific, then that's what they're going to get out of out of these architects.
Can I go into a question that's kind of related to this and just frame it a little you know, the question reframes what we're talking about a little bit. This is from Michael Chadwick in Club TFE and it's a long question. My apologies Michael paraphrase what you're saying here, but he senses, as you do, Andy, that the next phase of golf course project work at old golf courses is probably going to involve more redesign work than has been done in the past twenty five years at most
high profile Golden Age golf courses. And Michael's concern is that in allowing ourselves to redesign courses, we could repeat the sins of the fifties and sixties, when every club brought in Robert tran Jones or Dick Wilson or whoever and said, redo our courses, make him modern. Don't worry about what was there before, let's redesign. And it turned out that that wasn't a good path, and a lot of courses are now undoing that work, And so how do we avoid falling into the same trap if we
start redesigning golf courses? How do we know what we're doing is not just the same thing that was done in the fifties and sixties, and that we'll have to, you know, get rid of it all again in a couple of decades.
I think the what you have to kind of look at as the barrier of like if we put back like this is hard to do, it's hard to envision. But if we put back what was originally here rather than redesign, like are we great? You know? And if it's like to me, like if you're not one of the best, you know, it depends on what market you're in, you know, But if you're in a sparse golf market, if we're not one of the best three or four
courses in the area. If we do this and in some some cases the best, the why are we doing it? And I think, like, you know, that's the the hard thing to come to grips too, is like it. And then also there's like a feasibility like can we actually put back what used to be there here because like in a lot of cases, like there's been a lot of work all along the way. So like to me,
I was thinking about this the other day. I think there's like most of the talk about golf courses right now is like we're in this bubble and when is it gonna collapse? Like is the talk. But like that that's actually like kind of like pooh poohing, Like there's so many great golf courses being built right now, like that are like fun, engaging, Like we are in an unbelievable moment of golf course design and everybody's waiting for to just like drop and fall.
And I've noticed this as well. It's like we're looking for to be anxious about.
I played like a new course the other day, and I was just like floored about, like how fought it was. I just wanted to play. I want I like couldn't wait to go back and play more. And I think like I played, I've played such Valley a couple times this year, and all all I want to do when
I finish just go play more, you know. And I think about like we just left a time where we were getting like one or two new courses a year, and now we have like this amazing, Like we're young architects who hadn't gotten opportunities are getting real opportunities to build great golf courses. We're seeing clubs that are renovating, like full scale renovations and have new products like Madina three or what's what's going to eventually happen at Hazel Team.
You know you have a place like uh Interlock in which you know reopened and and has some new stuff, but mostly is just a restoration. Like we're in this like era like where there's so much new stuff coming rolling out that it's impossible to keep up. I just think that like there are a lot of like super talent, Like I don't know if we've ever had more talented and more educated golf architects.
No, it's certainly not more educated, like I think. I think that's that's for sure.
Part part of like I think like when these guys get busy, they lose the ability to go see golf courses. I would venture to say that because of like the recession and the golf really like if we'll call it like a golf course or SESSI from two thousand and eight to twenty twenty because of that golf course recession.
Through the twenty tens, people, Yeah, don't forget.
That all the people that have been working for people forever and not doing their own jobs have had like an inordinate amount of time to go see new golf courses and to read and study golf architecture. As well as the advent of the Internet, between Twitter and Instagram, there's never been more discussion, photos and discovery of great golf courses. To see that this era of architect like is on a different level than we've ever had before.
They're certainly more professionalized. I think that we do need to give credit to how literate Golden Age architects were, right, Yeah, those people spend a lot of time reading about golf course design, and they traveled a good bit as well. But the amount that that Cohort read and wrote about golf architecture is truly impressive and beyond anything that we can accomplish in the modern age because we have so
many different ways to communicate with each other. So I think certainly some credit needs to be given to that. But the on the ground experience that architects like Kyle Franz, Brian Schneider and Blake Conant have that King Collins has. The length of the apprenticeship that these architects served is pretty incredible, and.
So we may never see it again.
Yeah, they have the experience to come right out of the gates and build really functional golf courses. Maybe you don't like what they've done with them. There are varying opinions that could be had about the work that each of these architects is doing. Right now we can have that debate and discussion. I like a lot of the work that I've seen out of the architects I've just mentioned, but some of it's pretty provocative in general, though it's
really well executed. The quality of the work is there because these architects know how to build golf courses. They have that experience. They've been ready to do this for a long time, and so I think that that is what is exciting about this period. We're just starting to see Kai Golby start to build some original designs. He's going to knock it out of the park. That guy has been ready to build his own original designs for twenty years, and now we get to see what he does.
So I agree that this is a really exciting time in golf course architecture, and that we should step back occasionally, Yes, be critical about what's going on. We're not saying that we have to be happy about every single golf course that comes out. That's certainly not the business that you when I are in. I think people know this, but it is useful to step back every once in a while and say we've come a long way since twenty seventeen.
Yeah. Absolutely, I think like it's crazy to see where it's at, like even and I think like this goes down to agronomically, where where courses are at versus like in what what's really like. I remember in twenty seventeen there's still so many just courses that kept things soft and spongy, and they're so so fewer, Like it's it's amazing how the trends kind of shift, shift opinions and everything. All right, let's take a quick break and talk about one of our sponsors, True Golf. So True Golf has
this really neat product called launch Box. It is the all new portable launch monitor and golf simulator from two True Golf. It's super simple, it's got instant shot registration and an easy WI Fi connection and it has accurate data. I think that's what you're looking for from a portable launch monitor. And it can be used inside or on the range, on range mats outdoors. So this is really good. We're heading into the winter and this is a great
product to have unless you play great golf courses. I think like they aren't legally allowed to use course names for marketing, but they have some really great golf courses on there, and this is an awesome way to kind of stay sharp during the winter. I am going to get this set up at my house. I have a spot. It's just a matter of getting my net up and getting my mat down and then setting this all up. But it's still nice enough outside right now. I haven't
been in practice mood. But this is a way for you to get better over the over the winter. So if you want to learn more, go to True golf dot com. That's t r U g o LF dot com, slash egg. This is the launch box product. It is a really cool product, so check them out. Uh, this is a super great way to play golf when the weather gets poor. Let's get back to our mail bag
with Garrett. Here's a question for Keith Roebel. What modern courses will climb in notoriety in the coming years, seeing most new courses fall off in rankings after the shine wears off.
This is such a hard question to answer because it requires that you know where tastes are going to go next. What golf courses from the eighties and nineties have climbed in notoriety, Well, it would have to be the courses that were built by Tom Doak and Corn Crenshaw in that period, right, Yeah, those courses have climbed in fame and also in regard since they were built relative to all the courses that were being built at the same time. Right.
If you lived in nineteen ninety five nineteen ninety six, you were aware that sand Hills was an important course. It was being covered by Golf Digest, It was on the covers of magazines, and people were excited about it
and recognized it as something different. But there were a whole lot of other golf courses built by other architects that came out around that period that people were equally excited about to an extent, and it would surprise people to go back maybe more Yeah, to go back to that period and recognize that sand Hills was not, you know, massively more more famous than the other supposed best golf courses that came out in that two year period. So this is kind of a deflection by me. I really
don't know. I do think Old Barnwell has gotten a lot of hype, and so maybe there's not a lot more notoriety that it can gain. But I do think that'll be end up being considered an important golf course because of because of how original it is and how potentially trend setting it could be. I see that that golf course is inspiring other architects and pushing other architects
to take it up to the next level. And so I think that that could be the case where where we look back on this period and that course stands out even more than it does right now. But in general, courses that stand the test of time, I think that pretty much everything that Bill Kore and Ben Crenshaw build is built to stand the test of time. I think those courses will look just as good in twenty sixty as they do today. Yeah.
I think Tom Doak I'd thrown there too. Yeah, some of Gill's work as well. I Uh, when I think the answer to this question and you touched on it briefly, is like the scope like I have like a lot of clubs that will reach out and just ask like advice of like what to do you know, who who who they should be looking at? And generally, like my my general advice is like I would you know in your position, Like especially now, it's like Tom's not doing
consulting work, Corn Crunshaw is not doing consulting work. Gil does consulting work for a very select few clubs. Like you have to have some sort of in road or you have to be like a certain tier and that tier is not calling me. Yeah, And I think like in general, like what I like to say is like you need to figure out you need to interview, you know a handful of architects, and you need to bet on who you think the next big name will be, because like that's how you you gain, like you're going
to get. You know, there are a lot of competent architects, but if you bet on the right on the right architect and they become the next Gill Hands or like your restoration work is going to be thought of completely different twenty years from now, like ant.
Si Club or something you know Gill Hanson nineteen ninety six and now look at where they are, Yeah, and and like that.
The other aspect of that with like especially in the club industry is if you if you like you know, a great example would be like I know this club that could a hire, that almost hired. You know, they had an interesting interview process, but you know, I would say the the architect they hired is probably you know, kind of what they are, and you know, they had a few people in the room that are on like a very different trajectory, and you just wonder, like how
they're what what would be done? I don't I don't know if it would be drastically different, but like the way fifteen years from now that that work has thought of is drastic because you you know, you all of a sudden have an architect, Like people go to Tom Doak's website. Tom Doak has a Wikipedia page, Gil Hants
has a Wikipedia page. Like you go to their Wikipedia page and you see courses that they worked at, like and you all of a sudden, so like to me, I think and I think this is like new for this like the last ten years, fifteen years, Like the golf architect has become like kind of like a celebrity in the golf space. And the if you're able to bet on the right person, you get a working relationship at like a huge discount, and then it's like twenty
years from now your call up, you know whoever. It is like, you know, great examples Essex County Club in New Jersey, who just had a Gil Han's rest orate or renovation done.
They just this is the this is Essex County Country Club in New Jersey, not Essex County Club in Massachusetts.
Just for class. You know. They were one of the first gill consulting clients. And you know, this is probably a club that I don't know if gil would have like if they called them cold, he probably would have been uninterested. But this is somebody that he's worked with for thirty years, you know, or twenty years, and he remembers back to like, oh, that was one of the
first people that gave me a chance, you know. And I think that's the other aspect, especially in case like with right so but like with the rising and falling, it is so like you can just see it with the rankings, if that's what you're talking about specifically, rankings
is like the architects like the come and go. It's like whether you're in like you can look and see like the number of FASIO courses or RTJ courses in the top you know, especially if you go RTJ in the nineties in the top one hundred versus RTJ now in the top one order.
Yeah, like a shot of FASIO courses on there. He's still he's still pretty dominant in the in the rankings or just in some rankings. But yes, that if you look at like a golf die just ranking from the seventies versus today, Robert Trent Jones, Dick Wilson, It's it's a different world for for those two names.
And I think like I think, like I read a magazine article a couple of years ago, and I'll never forget like it said that in the early line, it said, like we're visiting this course and it was built by so and so, so we knew it would be good, which like, so that's what happens when an architect, like people just assume it's good.
Yeah, and they mistrust their own reaction if they don't like it.
Yes, I think this led to a good next question. Jim Hunton, great guy, former now professor former podcast. What is a course that you that have that you have changed your opinion on after closer study.
I thought about this for a bit. I would say old Barn not old Barnwell. Gosh, I was just talking about Old Barnwell. But it's another old course. Now you can guess what it is. I don't know, can you. First word is old. I guess there are a lot of olds out there. I'm talking about old McDonald. Oh yeah, my opinion did evolve on this course when I played it for the second, third, and fourth times. Now, one reason my opinion evolved is that this is one of
those courses, one of the few great courses. I guess you could say that I've even played four times. Most courses like this abandoned Dune's course or a high level private club. I'm not going to play that course four times. I just don't have the opportunity to do that. Nor is that really the way that our jobs are structured, Andy, Like we need to go see new places and keep adding to the arsenal. We can't go back and play courses a bunch of times. So it's a little bit rare.
It's just kind of happenstance. That's why we're fraud We are fronts. We're just passing judgment on courses that we've only seen once, barely seen them at all. Yeah, Old McDonald is a course that reveals some nuances and complexities over time. The first time I played it, I liked it. It's not like my opinion evolved from negative to positive. It's more like I played it and I recognized its virtues intellectually, but didn't feel them emotionally. I didn't feel
connected to this course. I was like, what an interesting exercise that renaissance golf design to Tom Doak and Jim or Bina have done here. Those are some really smart guys, you know. That was my initial response. But then just randomly I got to play it again a couple of times, and each time I played it, I got more joy out of it, just seeing what the ball did when it hit the turf, all the interesting ways that you
could play holes out there. Now I really feel positive about the course, as opposed to just thinking positively about it. So that's one where I think my opinion has has shifted over time. Another course I've seen a lot in the past couple of years, just because I tend to go to this event that we hold is Essex County Club. And each time I see that course, I admire it more again. Liked it the first time I saw it, I think more highly of it every time I see it.
For me, this is a dope course.
Tommy Dee getting some love.
It's the loop. Yeah, I think like I think about this course like way too much. I really really love it. The first time I played it, though, I didn't really like it so at the time it was I think it was twenty sixteen that I played it for the first time or twenty seventeen, right at the very beginning of the Egg. Yeah, it was, and it was brand new. It was one of the first golf trips I made. I went with somebodies that I played like amateur golf with. I was like very much at that point like a
tournament golfer. And I'm not gonna lie like it kind of like tossed me like it kind of like I got some bounces. I didn't feel like I played that bad. I played the I played Forest Dudents the day before and played really well, you know, and I thought, but like, I think, this is like actually like why some it's polarizing is because people do this, like people call it unfair. You know. Since then, I played it probably like three more times, and like every time, I like, just love
it more. I was bummed. I kind of wanted to go see it. I was in northern Michigan. I wanted to go see it. I just didn't. The trip was
too short both times around. But like, I love that golf course and it presents like if you think you just are gonna like land it on them, it's like a back pin I'm hitting in the back of the green or the middle of the green, like you're just you're not gonna like it if you play that way, like you have to bounce it in there's It's brilliant in the in the reversible sense of it, but it's brilliant in just the sense of the way it's maintained.
It is so fast and so firm, and it puts such an emphasis on striking the ball well like with the appropriate shape trajectory. If you the more you play it, the more you understand the contours that lead into the green. And to me, like kind of the shame of the loop is that like a very small amount of people will ever see it, like multiple times, like my biggest like plea. Uh. I have like two things that I
would like Tom Doak to do in his career. I'd like to see a major championship course, from which I asked him about and he didn't seem to have much interest in it.
Oh really, now I would. I would have thought that he would go for that, just because it's like something that people don't expect him to do, and so the Dok reaction to that would normally be, well, I'm going to do it, so.
I think I think that was in the last YOK with Doke and and then the other thing that I'd like is I want like the Loop, but like in a place where people play it every day. Yeah, either either like a local private club or a just a daily fee municipal golf course, because like it's honestly to me, I think I'm like irrationally, I think like I'm irrationally in love with a few places. Wildhorse would be one
of them. Cape Rundle you hit on, Yeah, and the Loop is one that I am like irrationally in love with. Like if you were like, I would say something like it's one of my ten favorite public golf courses, and I'd be fine, Like I would people would be like, you're an idiot, like you have all the bandoned courses, like they they list off some rational and I'd say, I don't care. I'd rather play there.
And other people have, by the way, said that to us about wild Horse, where we've been saying for a few years it's one of the top ten public courses bar none in America. And there were people at the beginning who are like, you're that's such an exaggeration. You're just high in your own supply. And I think we're getting to a point now where that's actually a pretty popular opinion.
Well, you know, the other thing is like people people just want you to regurgitate what they've come to know.
Yeah, you know, interruption, you're you're you're a wax.
I think with with the loop though, what you said earlier about like, you know, what I find interesting about all three of those is it's they're all on like a pretty old piece of ground. Yeah, like they all
like they aren't the most dramatic courses. And I think, like here's the thing is like you know, like I think like I think it was a hoopie famously, not famously, but like you know, this is like a part of a chapter of its like existence is a hoopie is that Michael Kaiser looked at it and didn't think it was dramatic enough for dream golf, like dream dream golf, like that resort golf thrives on dramatics that one time wow factor. Like the golf that I like the most
is usually a little bit more understated. I think it's why I love Scotland golf, the Scotland Scottish golf that I've played so much, Like, there's so much understated, small movement, so I think that lends itself more to like repeat, daily play and repeat and daily play is generally the golf courses that reveal themselves the most over time, in the ones that you kind of like could change your opinion on.
Yeah, scale is such a big part of what makes a golf course pop immediately versus later, and the loop to an extent Old McDonald as well, though there are some big movements that Old McDonald that make it a dream golf and dream golf golf course, but there's also a middle section of that course that is relatively subtle, at least in comparison to hitting over a huge dune ridge, you know, And so that's you know, it's part of what how we process a golf course initially versus how
we come to know a golf course over time. Old McDonald and the Loop are similar in that respect, and it's notable that both courses. If you were to choose two courses in America that are most inspired by the old course, you kind of have to go with those two, right, those.
Two the lead. Oh yeah, trying to think of some others. I know, I'm like forgetting one that.
Yeah, And I feel like all these courses are kind of brothers or sisters, and they're all built by Tom Doaks, so that's one thing, but they all have a kind of kinship in terms of the way that people come to know them over time. I think a lot of people are saying what you're saying about the Loop about the Lido as well.
Yeah, I would agree with that. It's you know, when it goes to what Dodo Mulinari said about how few golf courses have he talked about how like the old courses where he would start to consider angles as a tour pro. And I think like the one thing there was no caveat in that pod about tour pro. You know, like that's a different discussion than your fifteen handicap. But anyways, one of the things that he talked about was, you know, one of the things was the old course is the
angle thing there has to be the commiserate with. And all three of those courses Lido, the Loop, and and Old McDonald have the width. They also all have extraordinarily
firm conditions. They're all sand and fescue combinations, and then they also all have boldly contoured greens, the loops being much smaller, but like that's your combination for for angles, and I think like the I think the loops are are kind of fascinating because they're smaller scale than the others and how they how they like that width gets almost amplified because of the smaller target space.
I've got a kind of golf architecture one oh one y question for you.
You want to go there, Let's see if I can answer it.
This was asked in a couple of different ways by a couple of different people, including a Adrian Mazarolo in Club TF and Will Hardy on Twitter. The way that Adrian put it was how would you suggest assessing a golf course's architecture while playing a round of golf with friends?
Essentially a few different people asked us, how do you appreciate golf architecture while you're playing a round of golf, talking with people, doing all the different things that you normally do during golf that are not just gazing contemplatively at the architecture. How do you work that into your process or how would you suggest that somebody else do so?
Honestly, it's just watching golf shots. I think like it's the best way to start to understand architecture is to see where players are. Like the basis for appreciating architecture is starting to understand the strategy, you know, or the planned strategy of a whole. So watching where shots go and the obstacles that they have to then overcome to hit a good shot will lead you to understand the architecture of the golf hole.
You know.
If you want to get a little bit more nitty gritty, then it's observing how the holes sit in the natural space, how they kind of sit in their environment. But really, like the best way to understand it is just to watch, like where the people you're playing with balls, go and then look in and understand what they have to then deal with whether or or the great spots they get in where they are in like a great spot, like something that's in my head. Now, this is like the
worst thing that could possibly happen. I now like I know when I hit it into like the perfect spot, like a lot of you know, I like think about like I don't really play for score very much, but I actively like think about trying to push the ball into places that I want to get to for the architecture to be ruled and what I get to when
I get to said place. Now, like if I if I execute the shot, I now think about like you're in such a good spot, Like I almost it puts more pressure on the shot, like I get nervous because I'm in such a good place or know how good a play, Yeah that I need this to work out, like I have to catch this in because I have skirted the edge and really put myself in a good position.
It's like actually an obstacle. So anyways, like observing that is like the first foremost thing and it's like the great way to do it is just watch where people get it's like because you'll see the spectrum of people in great spots where the architecture of the contours might help him and is like, oh my god, like because
he got there or she got there. They're hitting into a bowl versus somebody's on the other side of the fairway and they have to come over a bunker and the backside of the bunker sloped away and they have nowhere to hit it the best they could do, like a great shots twenty feet away, you know, Like that's the stuff that you could start to think about.
Yeah, related to that, one thing I would suggest for people trying to appreciate golf architecture while they're playing is just take some perverse joy in the fucked up things that happened to you when you hit bad shots, and just think, how did I get here? What about the course?
And also my own mistakes made me get here? And that can get you thinking about the strategy of the whole the places that you don't miss, what the design is trying to do to you, how it's baiting you to do certain things, and low and behold, you did that thing and now you're in this situation. Instead of just being mad at that which is understandable. We all get mad on the golf course from time to time
when we're screwed over. But if you can take a step back and just laugh at it and look at where you are and consider how you got there, that gets you some way to appreciating the way that the strategic design of a whole is working. So I think that's one thing and then the other thing. And this is just not a suggestion that most people are probably going to take up. But I find when I'm playing a course and i'm there to consider its architecture, that I just put a lot less focus on my play,
that I devote a lot less bandwidth. I only have so much bandwidth to devote. And maybe this is just a me thing, but I find that if I borrow a little bit of mental capacity to look at the architecture and borrow that away from my focus on my golf game, that I'll just have a better time. Overall. I might shoot a little bit worse, And that's kind
of okay with me. Maybe that won't be okay with most people, but that that's just how I've sort of come to think of it, because I know that you know, I'm not gonna I'm not going to go out there and shoot the course record. That's not going to happen. By focusing a little bit less on my play, I might shoot a couple of shots worse, but it's probably not going to be disastrous, and so that's just the
compromise I make with myself. Final suggestion would just be if you're kind of there at the golf course, if you're around and you aren't immediately going somewhere else, see if the people at the golf course are happy to let you walk it in addition to playing it, Like if you really love this golf course, or if you're really excited to see this place and want to understand it, and you have the time to go out for a couple of hours and just walk the course and the
people at the course are okay with letting you do that, that's a wonderful way to absorb more of what's going on with the design, and something that I have done all the time, not in my capacity as an amateur player, but more because I'll go to golf courses and photograph them and often walk them in the morning before playing them.
But one of the greatest things for my golf course knowledge that that has happened in the past few years since I've been working in this in this line of work, is that I've gotten to walk golf courses without playing them, and that helps me learn them so much better. So those will be my three suggestions for appreciating golf architecture just in the flow of your you know, normal time spent at a golf course.
Those are great answers. All right, last break, I'll make this one quick. Today's Thursday. This podcast is out. This is We've got a really cool video releasing on our YouTube page, Friday Golf on YouTube. Just search it on there. You're gonna see Tom Doak and I talking about Sedge Valley in depth conversation. Brought to you by Johnny Oh. This was a really It's a part of our really cool new series we're doing with them called Digging into Design. We're going to do a few of these videos over
the course of the winner. Next week I am heading out. We're gonna be filming a couple of these. We're doing Mid Pines as well as Sweeten's Cove and the Park as part of this. We have one other one that we will announce later. But these videos are super neat. This is Tom Doak talking about Sedge Valley, so check it out on our YouTube page. Big thanks to Johnny Oh for making this happen. All right, let's get back
to the end of this Garrett Morrison podcast. All right, let's wrap this up here with one last question from Morgan Clausen. What a of the most interesting holes that you saw for the first time this year? Maybe just pick one hole. I'll pick one hole.
Oh my goodness. So this is going to require a little bit of description of the hole, and I hope it comes across well on the podcast. But the first hole that really comes to mind for me is the second hole at Old Salem Greens, a public inviscible golf course COFF. As you can tell, this course is in
my head right now. I'm sure there are courses that I've seen, Yeah, I saw in a February or March or or whatever that have some holes that would be fun to talk about as well, But Old Salem Grains has been the one that I've kind of been obsessing about lately. And there are so many cool holes on this nine hole golf courses nine holes, and each one is memorable kind of in its own way. The second hole is a pretty sharply downhill blind two hundred and
fifty yard par three. There's a big ridge that the hole kind of tips over like a roller coaster and then goes down severely to the green, so you can't see the green from the tee, and it's a par three where you don't see the green. You don't see he might be able to see a piece of the pin maybe, I think you can kind of vaguely in the distance. It's as long as it is, and it's just incredible. It goes over amazing land. But this is just the type of hole that nobody would build anymore
because everybody would be so mad about it. And I think people are probably mad about it now when they play it, but they're just like, oh, it's an old course or whatever. It adds some weird stuff on it. But this whole is so fun because you just you know, for me, I'm taking out a since it's so downhill, it's going to be a fairway wood and I'm just like ripping it downhill and hoping that it kind of trundles onto the green and it's a fun shot. It's
a really interesting use of that piece of land. I think if any other modern architect who maybe would see this piece of land wouldn't think of using it in this way, and so it sticks out immediately in the memory and just just a lot of fun and kind of a unique hole in the world of golf.
That's a that's a good one. I have to go to Northern Ireland for mine. Yeah, of course, I mean I'd seen this on TV, but I just think in person it's unbelievable. The fifteenth hole at uh Port Rush, it's called Scaries. It's just an epic hole.
I love.
I kind of I love like up and over holes where you you kind of tea from a low and then you go up on a ridge and then it kind of like you so you're teeing up from low and you don't really know what's above, and then once you crest like a certain point, you're just like, oh,
it's like just so epic. I mean, Port Rush is from like one to eighteen, I think, like one of the best golf courses in the world I've played, I don't you know, Frankly, like I think it's like actually, like you know, it's like whatever top twenty golf course in the world. I think it's probably underrated. It is astounding,
astounding golf course. Like I could pick like four holes from port Rush that I just were was like completely you know, you know, I like the fourth hole port Rush is unbelievable, the fifth hole port Rush is unbelievable. The fifteenth when you get up to the top of the hill and you get that approach shot to that great green side, it's just just epic place. I think about it a lot. It's like, yeah, I.
Love an up and over hole too. The one I actually cited was kind of an up and overhole though the mostly downhill. But the up and over is a characteristic that you don't see as much in modern golf architecture. It's probably coming back a little bit, but putting a tee on a low and the start of the fair way on a kind of sharply elevated ridge was a way that architects would often manage difficult pieces of land. Yeah, because what else, what other kind of hole can you
put on that piece of land? Well, okay, seventies, eighties, nineties, maybe you just blow up that ridge and cut a little goalie through it. Use your machinery to make the hole make more sense to a player standing on the tee for the first time. But often what they would do when they couldn't move that amount of land was just put the tea down below, put the fairway up above, and just be glad that the approach shot is not going to be blind right, and those I think those shots,
those kinds of drives have a lot of charm. They look cool to me. And once you get to know the course, at least you know your aiming point. You know when you're on the fairway and when you're not.
It's only blind once. As they say, Garrett, thank you for joining me on this podcast. Today's episode was produced and edited by PJ Clark. Thank you for PJ. PJ might have skipped the Mets game. I thought that was a questionable decision.
We were an abusive employer.
I don't know why you felt that.
Roy.
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