Gil Hanse - Part 2

I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a egg.

it for a reason. So I think that there's there's a lot of thought that goes into every little bump and bounce on a golf course, most every contour that goes into it, and you know, myself included, most average golfers are just trying to get the ball airborne and just you know, not thinking about strategy or the different you know, the way things are impacting the game and sort of very quiet ways. And so I think that that's something that people look at our golf courses and

think that sometimes there's just comes about by happenstance. But for the most part, everything is really well thought out and well planned and is hopefully having an impact on the way the game is played, or at least an impact on the thought process of how people approach it.

of what I thought. And that can be an influence from surrounding slopes, or you know, you just don't judge the grade. You're trying to build a green that's going back towards the player, and the ground is all falling away and your eye is just deceived by the way the ground sits. So I think that there's more redoing or struggling or sort of more frequent edits based on the fact that you're I'm not seeing what I think is actually happening, and when that happens, it's kind of funny.

Actually we get a good chuckle out of that. So it's that's more frequently the way it works. And because a lot of you know, we've been very fortunate recently to work on a lot of sandy sites and so we can refine the contours and greens all the way down into the very last second. Like if you're building a USGA green, once you build the cavity, you're pretty well stuck. I mean, you can play around with an

inch or two here or there. But you can't just make six inch cuts or make a lot of big edits to the because then you're screwing up the profile of the green with the gravel blanket and the whole thing. So on sandy sites, we can shape something in with a dozer or an excavator and then put the sand in place. And but then we've got a lot more fine edits that can be made with the sand pro or that can be made with rakes and shovels. So I think that allows us to continually refined, hopefully improve.

And sometimes that process goes in different directions than you ever thought it might go. And again that's hopefully the results that come from that are better than what you intended when you started out building it.

is at least equal to what already exists there. So as it relates to stream Song, it was interesting because both golf courses are by, you know, the modern guys that we respect the most. So you have Bill and Ben doing the Red course and Tom Doak doing the Blue course. So we were putting our work alongside, you know, the modern architects who we think do the best work. So there was a standard that was held up at that point in time that we wanted to respond to.

There was a style that you know, we all sort of generally live in, that rugged, rough, rustic style, so that we knew that was going to be compatible. And then we looked at all, right, how do we differentiate it? And it was at stream Song, it was all about the site. Our site was bigger, broader, not nearly as dramatic as far as the landforms are concerned, and red and Blue are purposely co mingled and co designed to

flow together, so they're a little bit more compact. So the reaction there was, okay, let's look at us from a scale perspective. Let's try and do something bigger and maybe a little bit bolder than those two golf courses. Here at Pinehurst, the reaction is to a completely different

I mean, it's a historic golf course. It has been a standard for greatness in this country for decades, designed by one of the greatest architects of all time, and then restored by you know, the greatest architects of the modern era, Bill and Ben. So we're looking next door

and we're literally a butt course number two. And you know a lot of people said, well, you're going to build greens like course number two, and we thought, no, that'd be the stupidest thing we could ever do, because the finest example of those greens already exists right next door. So what are we trying to do outdo course number two? So no, we you know, there are some elements of the greens on Course number two that might find their way into too our greens, But for the most part,

we're trying to build a golf course that's compatible. And you know, I'd be lying if I didn't say that there's sort of competition. I mean, we all try to do our best work, and so we don't want to build the golf course that's that's considered to be the

worst at any of the places we work. And you had a great fortune of being at a dinner last night where Bill Coor was speaking, and he said, you know, these resorts and these destination places, they really succeed only when the quality of golf is spread across the entire spectrum. You know, if Bannon had five golf courses and there were two of them that nobody wanted to play and three that everyone wanted to play, well, then that doesn't work.

You want to have the five golf courses spread equally, and same thing as stream song. If you know, it's easy, and I think it's great that you know there are people who love each every you know, there's people who are big advocates for blue, there are people with big advocates for red, and similarly for black, and to be able to have those conversations, and you know as well as I do, when you have conversations about golf architecture,

there's no literally, there's no rights or wrongs. There's no black and whites, but there's there's just all these shades of gray, and so people like them for all those different reasons. And so you know, I don't think it is ever our expectation that, of course we're going to

build something that's going to outshine course number two. But we wanted to build a golf course that would make people who come to Pineurse Resorts say, hey, you got to play number two obviously, but now you really have to play number four also, And so it's been an interesting,

interesting project. Bill and I joke an awful lot about how we just follow in their footsteps, and he's the trailblazer and pioneer, and he gets to live in the rough and rugged, you know, establishments, and by the time we show up, the hotels are done and everything's perfect, and we get to live in Donald Ross's house and we have a little bit of a back and forth

banter on that. But anytime you get to work alongside those guys, and anytime you get to work at a place as historic as Pinehurst, I mean, how lucky are we?

from the landscape. I mean, there was a lot of different shaping, there was a lot of different earth moving on the site, and Ross considered it and wrote about that it was probably the most dramatic of all the sites you had to work with here at the core of the resort, and it's got great topography and great interest. So our goal was to try to reconnect that landscape.

Was to start put the ridges back where the ridges were, put the valleys back where they were, not just looking at tree line to tree line and reconnecting the landscape. So it was an interesting exercise. Normally, when when you're building a new golf course, you're trying to find the golf holes and you're trying to find the places in the landscape where they exist. With Course number four, with just a few exceptions, we were working in the same

corridors of the golf course. Of the routing didn't change dramatically, but within those corridors, our goal was to reconnect the landscape, almost as if we just found it in its natural state, and then once we put the landscape back, then we all started talking about, Okay, where did the bunkers go, what's the strategy, where are you supposed to hit it? How does this whole thing fall into place? So it was kind of a backwards exercise of restoring the landscape

before you even then start designing the golf holes. And it's been fun and challenging, and I think that I mean a lot of credit to Brent Vest and Brett Brennan and the guys that are sort of doing a lot of the heavy lifting on our projects and and a lot of the shoving and pushing around, and they I think they've really nailed it. They've done a great

job with with restoring that landscape. And now we're all sort of the rest of the team is following behind, and I think we're making some some very interesting design decisions, some of them based on what Ross had done. We have his old the old aerial photographs from course number four, so we've taken some of the bunker patterns and some of the sort of grassing lines from that golf course.

But at the end of the day, it'll it'll be one of our original designs and I mean we're we're really excited about how we think it's going to fit into the overall landscape parent Pinehurst.

this particular property back in two thousand and seven. We had looked at it with Davis Love and looking about building a golf course there, so we knew of the character and the quality of it. And now this is a completely different approach to how we tackled that landscape. But we introduced Michael to the land and he fell in love with it immediately, and so we one of those projects that's kind of come back to us, which

we're delighted about. But when we were approached also about doing the match play component, Jim and I were excited about the thought of, hey, we can build holes, we can take a few more chances, we can build more heroic type setups where there's a lot of risk reward that if you take on the big challenge, you're going to get the big reward and if you play away from that, you're going to have to, you know, work to score. But the thought was, you know, nobody's writing

nine or ten on their scorecard. It's just you've lost the hole. So why not you know, gamble with some pretty big stuff, because all right, you know, you just one down. And I think that that mentality was refreshing. It was liberating for us, because so often you're focused on, all, right, how what's the playability and what's ultimately the the score that somebody's going to put or how you're going to how do you design based on the notion of par And I know we all sort of in this circle

of golf architecture of ficionados. You know, part is irrelevant to us, but it's not to ninety nine percent of the golfers out there. That's really what they measure themselves up against. And the carton pencil mentality is, unfortunately the reality.

And so to be asked to design a golf course where the cardon pencil mentality is thrown out the window and as you said, frowned upon is I mean liberating is really the only word I can use, because I think it just allowed us a fresh perspective on that landscape.

Now that landscape allowed us to build some dramatic golf holes and to have some really dramatic sandy features, utilizing some of the beautiful live oaks and the property, and then the variety of golf holes from along the lake at the start, which one of the nice things about working with Michael was, you know, the quintessential sort of an American golf course in southeastern American golf course would

finish on the lake. You know, you'd have your par threes or in your par fours, and you know that's stuff. And with the beauty of that landscape, we really felt like that was the worst part of it. Now, it was a place we decided that would be the best place for the clubhouse because the beauty of it is fantastic. But we wanted to finish on the really cool, choppy rolling ground in the sand as opposed to finishing on the water. So we went to Michael with the routing

the final decision. We said, hey, we understand it's a really nice visual resource, but we don't really value it that highly from a golf standpoint, So can we have whole number one where you're overlooking the water and then whole number two where you're actually playing it and then see you later. And he was like, yeah, that's a cool idea. I'm fine with that. So it was. It was good looking at from a routing standpoint. We had

all these diverse landscapes. We had the you know, along the lake to start, and then we had kind of rolling down into the woods lower ground where we had to you know, actually as whole number four, as Jim refers to as sort of an architects hall. We had to make that hole to connect the dots, and then you emerge out of there on five and six, and then by time you hit seven you start to get into those great rolling ground and the live oaks, and then you know, by the time you get out on ten,

you're out in the meadow. Then you're back into the live oaks and rolling around and finishing in that regard. So it was a wonderful landscape to be able to try to execute that thought process of building a match play course. And then because it's remote and because you know people are going to be staying on property with all right, well, if you're you know, maybe somewhere down

the road, Michael might build another golf course. But for right now, you know, there's this eighteen hole golf course. What can we do within the property that might allow you to have a different option to play. You know,

I'm fifty four years old. I'd love to walk and carry or have a caddy, but thirty six full holes by the end of the day, I'm done and I'd like to be able to enjoy having a libation and having some sitting around with the guys and having a good time without just feeling like I'm about to fall

over a sleep in my soup. So we thought, well, what if we create another loop of golf holes that would be We've started referring to it as the Afternoon Round, and thought, well, the afternoon Round could be a much shorter golf course, much really a little bit more compact as far as walking is concerned. And so the concept became, well, what if we tack four holes on short holes into the routing and then do this combination of where you play the first hole, then you skip over to six,

and then do you knock out? So a couple of big long part fives and some of the longer walks between holes, and then you play seven, eight, nine, ten, and then you jump into ABCD and then that loops you back in across and then you jump into whole eleven, but not playing it as a part five, playing as a short four anyway. The creativity involved in that the route, the final routing of the afternoon holes was Jim Wagner.

I mean he came up with even the idea of crossing over one of the other holes that you've already played. And so now you've got a around six thousand yard golf course. It plays under seventy and you're just it's a fun alternative to get another eighteen holes in, but now feel like you're getting beat up. And then the four afternoon holes, there's a really short part five, a really short part four, and then two part three. So again it's a small it's a much smaller, tighter loop.

And within all of that context is Mike Walrath has just you know, gave us the freedom and the ability to think outside the box, and he encouraged and welcomed that thinking, which matched his thinking about I'm going to build a you know, a club where we're going to embrace the spirit of match play and we're going to

just enjoy that that component of the game. So it's one of the most special and interesting projects that we've ever been involved with, and I am excited for people to get a look at it.

call them. I think that that unfortunately, there's a stigma around that here in the United States, which you know, you go to the best clubs in Britain or in Australia and everybody's pulling their clubs around. I think anything you can do to get people to walk is that it's the essence of the game. And you know, golf courses have always been meant to be enjoyed at a walking pace. You know, Jim and I refer to it as golf at fifty five miles an hour. When you're

in a cart, you're just blowing through the landscape. You're not in touch with it, You're not in contact with the ground, you're not feeling the undulations, you're not visiting with everybody in your group. You know, if you and I are playing in a cart, we're basically spending four hours, well hopefully it's only four hours, you know, together, you know, whereas the other two guys, we're just going to see them up on the green and then that's it, and that's the only time we're going to get to be

with him. Whereas when you're walking, you're you're constantly changed depending on which direction your ball went, You're walking with a different person, and you're getting sort of to enjoy that experience much more so. It's in our minds. Walking gets you the feeling of being in nature. Being on the ground sets the right pace for the game of golf. So anything we can do within our designs to help keep that in the forefront. So we do. We put

teas and greens in close proximity. We look at the opportunities that exist where not a lot of people are going to be playing the back tea, So maybe we'll sneak the back teas a little bit closer and then so you're just kind of that then makes the forward t s, you know, sort of walking in progression. You know, you're just sort of moving in those directions in that direction. So I think it's one of those things where we're

we're cognizant of it. We're big believers that we want to push the envelope as much as we can to enable walking to be comfortable. And you know, I think one of the things we love so much about these great old classic golf courses. We love the features, we love the variety, we love the way that they sit in the landscape, but we also love that compact nature of just sort of green next tea, and there's just

something that's right about that. And you know, unfortunately, a lot of what went wrong with golf architecture in the nineties and two thousands is just, you know, the golf courses weren't being built where golf was the primary focus. A lot of them were real estate driven, and that just lent to the cart mentality and not just couldn't physically walk the golf courses. There's so much separation between holes, and so I think what we're focused on, what Bill

and Ben do, what Tom Doak does. I mean, we really are trying. We've been really fortunate to have these types of landscapes where we can build walking golf courses and owners that embrace that feel. But within within that, we feel very strongly that we want to push the envelope as close as we can to make the golf courses as compact as possible.

is fine. So we built that golf course with a ton of half par holes, really just thinking that the flexibility that's afforded in that would would be fun to watch and fun to play. So I think if that golf course really just par was irrelevant and it was just go out there and play golf. And I really really wish that golf in the Olympics would have had a matchplay component to it would have been so much.

I think from our standpoint, it would have been much more compelling and interesting, and that could have been a team competition, and you know, it was great. We were fortunate that we got to see Justin Rose and Hendrick Stintson battle down the final golf hole and make decisions on how they played that golf hole to win a gold medal, and so I think from that standpoint it was exciting and thrilling. But it would have been so cool to see people see them play match play on that golf course.

it's not because it was given to them. So if the Americans can feel two teams of two and you know Sweden can only field one team of two, well that's just because the way the ranking system is set up. So there were a lot of reasons for why they did what they did, and at the end of the day, it was very successful. So there's you know, you really it's hard to complain, but I think us purists would have liked to have seen things a little bit more creative.

it was Simpson and Simpson and Weather. It's book about a sense of humor and golf architecture, and I think that, you know, a lot of the earlier architects felt like that was important. Part of the personality of a golf course was that you wanted to have some humor in there. And so when we were tasked to try and figure out how to lay out a short course on the ground that they gave us, Jim and I looked at and just thought about fun. Let's just build fun holes.

Let's try and build a variety of ways to play these golf holes, a variety of ways to approach them and attack them. Let's try and make them feel like they sit in the landscape quite nicely. There was no edict to build nine holes. It was just whatever fit. Jim and I both thought that if we could retain

the two greens that were there. So the originally where the cradle sits was originally holes one on courses three and five, and so we kept the two greens just as sort of an homage to the work to the holes that were there. So that was always going to be part of the routing. So then it was just how do we tackle this side hill site and try and get a variety of lengths and angles et cetera,

et cetera an uphill downhill. And so once that all fell into place, it became a focus on just fun, you know, and we we looked at how do you play the you know, punch bowl green. We we purposely put a flat spot above that green so people could sit and you know, ad arondick chairs and watch shots come into it and cheer and yell or whatever. So it was one of these things where again a little bit like a whoopie, where you just you weren't worried

about the quote unquote shot values. You know, oh, is this green going to be receptive to a to a four hybrid or what's the potential range of shots people are going to hit into this green? And what angle. It was just like, Okay, people are going to drop a ball on this tea and they're going to hit They're going to figure out the best way to get onto the green. And for the most part the shots are under one hundred yards, so everybody should be able

to tackle that. And I think one of the nicest compliments we got was from Rand Moore as set who you know, golf club atleast he played out there and he just loved He said, you know, there's you can see that every class of player can find, you know, a challenge level that's acceptable to their game. There's a lot you know, you can put you can literally put on every single hole if you wanted to, or there are whole locations there where a guy like yourself who's

an accomplished players. You got to hit some shots. I mean you really, you can't just fake it. But if you're not worried about posting a score and you're just out there, I mean, Tracy and I have played at a number of times. We play in forty five minutes, we have a ball. I mean, it's just it's all about fun and that's that's I think something that's been

missing from the game. A little bit. And I think if we can inject that into into the game and get people attracted to the game, or you know, just sort of say, hey, this is a there's a much more vibe that goes with this setting here as opposed to a lot of the sort of high stress levels that people associate with golf, especially when they're first coming to the game, then I think The Cradle will be be successful in that regard. And I mean it's and

they gave us the front yard of the resort. I mean you walk right out of the clubhouse and it's just there, right there in your face. And for Pinehurst to recognize that, you know, this prime real estate should be dedicated to fun and just people out there having a good time, I think really sends a great message to the rest of the golf industry of where some of our priorities should be.

like he wanted to do it. And it's so interesting because it brings I think that these types of courses have the you know, ability to get people to use their imagination more on the golf course as opposed to the traditional aerial American golf.

I mean, that's one of the nice things about the Cradle is when you walk past it or when you drive past it and you just see the smiles on the people's faces and you see grandparents out there with their grandkids. In a way, it's almost the most successful thing we've ever done. Because it has captured the imagination and it's it's really done. Is everything we had hoped it would do. It seems to be doing, and that's that's really gratifying or rewarding in itself.

think angles would still be relevant. You know. It's it's not something that we go into each project and we say, hey, this is this is X. I mean we obviously the client is going to dictate some of that. I mean they're going to say this is you know what we've hired you. Let's and we have the conversation this is what we need to accomplish, this is what we want to do. So a municipality would have its requirements and

we'd have to accommodate those types of things. But from a design standpoint, we would really I think focus on trying to still build a compelling and interesting test because I think people like it. I mean, it's not a class thing, like good design doesn't belong in a certain class. It's only it's not only for wealthy private clubs. It's for everybody. And you can see, you know, goat Hill

in California, you know, Winter Park in Orlando. I mean, these are fun and interesting courses that are very playable, yet they're sound architecturally. They're not just sort of you know, okay, just beat it around and known attention. So I think we would always still try to focus on building interesting golf courses, no matter what the what the setting.

again just for the beauty. And the thing about Fishers is that you know, everybody talks about the views, but they're such great architecture there. I mean rain or the angles and the things, the landforms he used and the setup I mean.

Just again, I think you know, our experience is there, how much we've learned, and just how enjoyable, how playable it is Pine Valley again, just for the sheer perfection of eighteen holes routed through an amazing landscape and having the variety and the drama. I mean talking about eighteen unforgettable holes on a golf course, that's that would be another one. You know, fun fun, fun golf would be like Myopia Hunt Club. I mean, that's just a blast

to be out in that setting. And now I'm like totally on the snob appeal here, right because I've got like all these top private clubs, and you know that the one golf course that we've built, I think that's nine so hopefully ten that every time I play it, I go, man, I wish I played here more as Boston Golf Club. There's just something about it. It's it's you know, I think it was early on in our career. We had the luxury of a lot of time. You know, the owner there was the owners were sort of, hey,

let's take two years to build this. This is Boston. You know, the weather's not going to cooperate. Gave us a great piece of ground, and there's just, again, I think, an emphasis on what we believe in architecture, a lot

of fun. There's a lot of with there's trouble. I mean, you can you can get yourself in places that you don't want to be, So there's a little bit of Pine Valley in it in that regard, But I think, yeah, if we had to pick, and I'm going to piss off all the other clubs we've ever built or designed, but you know, I think probably one round of Boston Golf Club would be fun.

at Fishers is so cool. I mean, it's just, you know, the combination of the alps in the punch bowl is really special and unique and different, and just the the t shot, you know, with the ocean lurking down the right hand side, but the further you know, it's one of those things you talk about. Everybody's overwhelmed by the beauty of that golf hole, but it really is a strategic hole. You play close to that edge and you

actually get a look around the corner to the bowl. Now, granted, with the way people hit it now, it might be a little bit short for better players, but it's just put a hickory driver out exactly, Yeah, and just knock it around with that. But every time I walk over that hill and look down into that bowl, and the anticipation of where's my shot? Where is where did it find? I love that. I never ever get tired of that

type of shot. I know some people really dislike blind shots, but in my mind that that's one of the greatest walks we talk about walking golf courses. I feel like people get robbed when they play that golf hole in a cart because they drive around the side and they never get that experience of coming up and over and walking down into that bowl, Because that, in my mind

is just it's a glorious setting. But there's a combination of the beauty of the setting and with that anticipation of the result, And I just think that.

most golfers are not comfortable answering, because we are. It's been so ingrained in us that the the technically perfect golf shot is down the middle of a hole, and when all of a sudden the architecture requires the technically perfect golf shot not to be struck or not, you know that it's going to get into trouble. People lose their minds on that, and I just think that that from an architects perspective, is a very interesting thing to

try and insert. Now, you don't want eighteen holes of it, but you definitely want to put it in once or twice in a round and make people decide left or right. And you know, it's interesting. I've talked to some professional golfers and the hate that bunker in the middle of the fairway and it's like, well, why, well, that's right where I want to hit it. Well, like on this hole, you don't you either want to hit it short or

left or go right of it or over it. Isn't that more interesting now because that's right where I want to hit it, And they just can't get it out of their head that that's not where you want to be on a hole. And so I guess from that standpoint, I really liked them.

studying the course. And then I saw a comment he made about Trinity Forrest where he thought it was silly and he could he was having trouble, And it's so funny because it's like, well, it's not formulaic there forces you to make decisions, decisions change on the daily basis. It's like, now, like how can you not say, like, who cares about score when something requires decision and execution versus just execution.

highest that's the highest point of golf course architecture. And when that happens a lot of times in professional events, it's poo pooed or say, well that's not right because it's like you said, it's not formulaic, it doesn't fit the mold. And so I think that it's going to require I would almost guarantee that the champion there is

going to be a thoughtful player. Is going to be a player obviously who can control their ball in the wind, but is somebody who can actually think their way around a golf course and that that, in my mind, should be applauded at a higher level than the players who are just going to say I don't get this. You know that. Unfortunately, the way the media is not just golf media, all media, they want the negative. They want that big impact splash. Instead of a guy who says, hey,

this is great, it's really thoughtful, et cetera. They want the guys as well, this sucks. And so that's unfortunately probably what we're going to hear more of. But I'll be excited to watch that torm, more excited than probably almost any tournament this year.

think that that's easy, you know. So I think that an understanding of scale is probably the most important thing I learned in landscape architecture. You know, a lot of what we studied there really had no relevancy to golf course design. But scale was one of the most important elements of sort of the arrangement of a landscape in

scale and harmony with nature. I think every golf course, if you can accomplish those goals and make it feel like it's in harmony with its site and it's setting, and that the scale of it is appropriate from a presentation standpoint, those are the best golf courses.

courses in it. I think if good architects build golf courses in those settings, like you know, Bill and Ben have done a few golf courses down there. I think Tom Weiskoff and the TPC Scottsdale is really thoughtful architecture and well laid out. So I mean, those I think are great golf are fantastic golf courses in a desert setting, but as the whole, the whole setting of what I've seen of desert golf is probably overrated.

So I guess the answer to that question would would come if I could see any band sort of back together and play and you know, in their prime, yeah, or even just even now, to go back and just get back together. I loved the Talking Heads growing up. I just and I still love the talking Heads. I mean anytime Burning Down the House comes on, like the speaker's just going up. It's just one of those things I just I've always and to see them again would

be really cool. And they're actually, I think all four of them still alive, so it would be a possibility. So yeah, I think from a sort of that genre, you know, that new wave time frame where things were sort of changing and going over. They they did a really cool job of straddling that punk new wave rock line. And David Byrne, I think is really an amazing performer. So yeah, I probably would go Talking Heads.

we definitely I give that some thought. And you know, when you're in the bulldozer and you're pushing dirt for a long period of time, there's all kinds of things that cross your mind, and that might be one of them that you know, and as we've talked about my appreciation for music and the involvement it has actually in our working My working environment is pretty pretty cool, all.