I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my.
Ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and today I'm joined by the illustrious golf writer, part time golf course architect Jeff Shackleford. Jeff, thanks for coming.
On, Thanks for having me, and it good to be here.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, how are you recovering from such an entertaining packed weekend of golf. You know, all these events played at the same time on different networks.
What were you watching?
I was going back and forth and uh and and bemoaning the fact that they were all ending at the same time and muttering things about how we need more West Coast venues and tournament golf because I do that in general, but also because it helps spread out finishes. So I you know, they weren't the greatest golf tournaments in the history of the world, but I when you see a Danielle King and that kind of a great
story and emotional story. You kind of would like to be sitting there just shavoring that one and and and enjoying it. And then uh, you know the Senior Open. It's it's a you never know what's going to happen in a USGA event like that. I'd kind of like to savor the finish that there. And then you know, anything at TPC uh whatever, it's called Avenel Potomac something or other. They've changed it there is it is it Potomac Potomac at Avonel Farms I think is the full name.
But anyway, it's weird things happened there, and it was kind of a wacky, wacky uh finish down the stretch with some some oddball characters which I like. And so yeah, one of them should have been finished today. And this is just a problem golf has with uh, with scheduling. There's a lot of stuff out there and and the the groups don't always see eyed I on on when to finish these things, and then we end up with something like that.
Yeah, I mean, it would have been nice if they had had term in action over Saturday Sunday Monday Tuesday essentially gotten four days of weekend action. But you know, it is what it is. So you know, a question I've always wondered, UH, is how did you kind of get into golf course architecture? Obviously, you know it's something you wrote a ton about early in your career and just was curious about that.
Well, from a pretty young age, I was interested in drawing golf holes for some unknown reason, like a lot of people. And then I was very lucky in that my dad was a took me on a lot of trips when he was announcing college basketball, and even back when he was with the Lakers. I even went on a couple of trips then. But when he went to work for American Golf Corporation and Acquisitions, we traveled to a lot of places and saw a lot of rundown
munis that they were looking to try and acquire. And then we also played some good golf courses in those areas, so that got my interest going. And then obviously he joined Rivier when I was sixteen, and and then had George Thomas's book, So that combination of getting to see that and study George Thomas's right, it was really important as well. And then and then things kind of went
to another level when they did the restoration project. And I was kind of near the end of my time in college and losing interest in playing and fascinated by what that course had been, and I started kind of doing research on my own, and I started showing some of that to Ben and Bill and did Jim mcfillamy, the superintendent at the time there, who was running the job. And unfortunately I was finding things that they didn't know about, or they had suspected existed but had no documentation of.
And so their project in nineteen ninety three was more of a it was a restoration of the evolved course, if that makes sense, And so that was kind of that was fun. And then I got to know them and learn from them, and Dave Exellent and Dan Procter of the Shapers, and so it was just a common of things that happened. And but it's always been something I've been just just naturally drawn to.
It's interesting. I wanted to talk a little bit about Riviera later, you know, curious since you've done a lot of research on it, and I know, you know, everybody that watches Golf Channel knows you love the way the water moves off the golf course. But if you were going to do one kind of thing, like if they they hired you to do a restoration tomorrow and a kind of long range plan, what would be the first thing that you do to that golf course?
Probably reclaim the look of the Baranka and try and get that what you see in the old photos of a sandy sandy wash through the course and then up up the thirteenth pole on the left side, and down the middle of the eighth and down the right of the seventh. I mean, that was the thing at La
Country Club. That that that I bent Gilsier about and over again, and he was, of course, he was in agreement, and we had to get the Baranka back because there's just nothing like that that element of a golf course.
You can do great bunkers, you can have great strategy and beautiful green complexes and this and that and restore whole locations, but if you don't have that kind of the color, the texture, the all the elements the coolness that sandy Baranka brinks because there's really nothing quite like them in the terms of hazards and in golf, and it's kind of a something that's unique to southern California to have these sandy washes that you can go and
hit a recovery shot from and they function, they're part of the way the golf course plays in the winter time, et cetera, et cetera. And mostly just the look. And so that's where Riviera's has become kind of a it's a two color golf course. It's green, and it's got white bunker sand and trees, and it's it's it's lost a certain visual.
Identity.
Intrigued.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I I you know, you think about Riviera and it you know, being there, you know, it's definitely a site that wasn't blessed with a lot I mean, as a canyon as small. Yeah, Like you know, when you talk about the great golf courses in the world, it's got to be one of the best with one of the worst sites. You know, and in your opinion, you know, is it, you know, one of the three or four most architecturally sound golf courses.
Not as much now it still is, but they've they've just taken so many, so many great subtleties and and cool elements of it. Out either either just through ignorance or just not really understanding it. And so I just feel like when you see where so many other golf courses have gone in the restoration movement we've seen and Riviera's gone backwards, that it's it's really fallen far behind. And I never would have said that, I mean, growing
up there. If I match played it, I think you and I may have discussed this, But if I match played it against La North, it always won two and one, three and two handily. And that was me being charitable, thinking I had a home course homeri Ism thing going. And now it's the other way around. La La breathes to an easy two and one, three and two victory depending on my mood, and it's just there's just too
many weak elements. I think the thing that stands out for me there is when the University of Texas guys were going there for the NCAA's, their coaches asked my dad and I about local knowledge and things they should be on the lookout for, and it was sad. I went through it and there was really only one great sucker pin left. They had kind of taken some of the angles out with the green enlargements where of course used to have several great whole locations that you would
just think, oh, I can go with that. And the way the bunkers were angled it was idiotic. And they they they've they've eliminated those and it's it's a little it's a little stuff like that when you take that out of a strategic course, and of course that had evolved in a certain way that I think is uh is unfortunate.
Yeah, I mean, it's it is interesting how you know they you know, everybody's doing this restoration thing and you know it seeming seemingly everybody's coming out winners from it. But you know, they have you know, more money and you know, ability to do you know, a restoration, more so than almost any club in the in the country. And they yet they they haven't really done a true restoration.
No, No, it's unfortunate. And they they had every opportunity to and many people trying to guide them there, but they they don't want to do that. And I've heard there now now again looking at trying to put water in the branca again, so be kind of the polar opposite of what I would I would do there. So it's it's a it's a helpless Uh, it's a helpless cause sadly, So you know.
Maybe we'll go to a little bit uh, you know, brighter subject will stay in the LA area. And I you know, you and Gil completed your work at LACC South Course earlier this this year, and you know, I'm just kind of curious about, you know, the project, you know what the goal was, and you know, now that you've had a few months, how how the how's the member feedback? Then?
Well, it was the second course there in architecturally as long as I've been alive and for a long long time, and it was it was but the course that got more play, and it was probably sixty percent there and forty percent of the North. Well, after the North was redone, the combination of the better grass and conditioning for most people and then obviously the better architecture for certain players there made the North just much more popular, and it shifted the other way to sixty of the play there
and maybe even seventy percent. And so the goal was to get the South back to where people wanted to play it. And then there were some issues with a neighboring building that has yet to be built but will be built eventually between the Beverly Hilton and the South Course that was going to, in our insane world, put the club in a bad spot where where even though it's been there one hundred and twenty years, that t shots that would would go into that new building would
would be would be the problem of the club. So they needed us to re route some holes on that end of the course, and it turned into an open canvas really once we showed them that rerouting, and the decision was made, well, if we're going to do this, let's do it right. That's kind of how they are
there and it's just a great club that way. And so we, uh, you know, I got to spend a lot of time trying to come up with different routing scenarios, and Gilt would would chime in, and we we and Russ Meyers, the superintendent would And it was the most difficult thing I've ever worked on because we had to keep the holes basically on the perimeter playing the same way in terms of tea shots, so that if we started sending balls onto streets or into houses that that
had not gotten those before, we would have been in trouble. And and nobody wanted that, so it was great fun. But it was I mean, it was incredible how many phone calls there'd be. Either Gil would would have an idea or and I'd have to go check it out, or Russ would have an idea and we'd start talking them through, and then we really lives. We had back to back par threes, or we had part sixty nine, or we had nineteen holes or we had seventeen holes.
It was insane. It was. It was fun. And then one day it finally kind of clicked in one respect, I found a hole that I was excited about. And then but we still had one little problem. And I remember the day very vividly, and Gil, Gil, I think, on a Friday night, was looking at something and figured something out, said would you go check this out? And so I went out and on a Saturday, and it was it was kind of fun. I had just well,
it was weird. I did the morning drive that morning and was defending Ted Bishop who had been in a little scandal. And I went over there and I took pictures of where and called Gil and said, I think it works. It's a little uphill par three and and we finally had our eighteen holes kind of pieced together, and so that whole I am very I really like that's the one hole that in the member feedback is still there's still on the fence about it's a little
short uphill Part three with a pretty severe green. But the feedback's been very positive. A couple of part threes are are are tough for them because the greens are new and firm, and but other than that, the feedbacksmen sensational. It's done what we'd hoped. It's gotten the playback over there and good players love it. And uh, it's really
a beautiful property. And it's a very different property than the North You're you're right, it's like golf in Central Park, and so the contrast between the two is just incredible.
Yeah. I always like when clubs, you know, like as opposed to like Baltis Ral where you have like just two you know, courses that are going to beat you up day and day out, where you have a little bit of a contrast where you have you know, your US Open Walker Cup course on the North course, and then you've got something that's a little bit you know, more playable and and you know, member friendly on the
South course. So you know, you you see, you know, the ability to you know, really have two different golfing experiences in.
One Yeah, and that was something that you know, so when I hear some of the feedback that this hole is too hard and that's too hard, you know that that we cringe at because we did want this to remain fun and a totally different vibe that that a good player could could go out with with with not as good players and they could still have a fun game. And for the most part, I think that's been the case. And when you have a new course in New Greens that's just one of the things that that you have
to ask for patients on. But it was really really a fun project to be a part of and to to to to work in the middle of the city like that and to to try to do something that was different than the North, but also didn't you know that was the other thing we had to deal with was do we want do we want to just create a because a smaller version of the North, because you know, Captain Thomas had started developing plans for the South and redid the first green and it was a pretty zany
green with a bunker cut into it, and you're thinking well he was gonna go pretty nuts with this golf course with short holes, and and then he he passed away. So we we tried to do some things on the course that were in the vein of what would George Thomas do on a shorter version of a course like this? And what would Billy Bell how would he construct it?
But we also did some things that were that went against that, and we we've toned down the bunkers a little bit and things like that to make it make it different, but not make it. I mean we even toyed with like it do we do a Rainer style look, and so they're totally different looking, and we just felt like that was never gonna never gonna look quite right. So I feel like we found the right the right blend.
Yeah. So something I think is interesting about kind of your career. So you start, you know, you're you're a golf writer, and you know, you write a lot about architecture, and now you've you know, kind of you know, morphed into a architect you know yourself, you know, And I think a lot of people that are into architecture always think, hey, you know, it would be so cool to get to
design your own own course. What have you seen that is the toughest aspect of architecture that you didn't expect it now that you've been out in the field, you know, you know, building golf courses.
Probably the politics of it, the convincing whoever is in charge of the money and of what you want to do and what they need to have done and what they have is in terms of a site or or an existing course. It's it's it's fairly relentless, and it's it's uh in terms of the campaigning and the effort you have to make to convince people that something would be good. And I mean that was the fun part
at l A. It was not. Initially it was a tough set well and uh, you know, a lot of opposition, and then it was the opposite on the on the south we we had very little opposition and it was almost it was almost uh, you know, Gil and I would look at Uh, I guess nobody, nobody really is too worried about what we're going to do, so let's do it. And that was fun as well. But it's uh,
that's a tough part of the job. I think that part of the job's gotten slightly easier with the change in the last probably five to seven years of people going into projects just being more aware of what what's
good good design and what sensible design, what's sustainable? Uh uh And and I think the biggest shift is the the finally we've seem to be over for the most part, not always, but for the most part, the obsession with difficulty, and people are asking architects more and more they want they want fun and and and uh that's to me
really really encouraging for the game. And maybe too late, but you never know, but I think it's I think it's been a great shift that you see that now with you hear that with so many projects.
Yeah, you know curious. You know, when you got your start and started writing, and you know you're kind of in the dark ages of architecture, you know, did you did you just feel like a black sheep at all times?
No? No, no, because there were other people with the same mindset. Yeah, I mean I got the black sheep treatment when I started venturing into writing about distance and uh, I mean literally to the point where there were there were certain companies that were encouraging people not to use me for writing work, and and there were uh, you know essentially they were they were threatened by that discussion, and and I understood that that's that's uh, it's a
it's a sensitive subject. But even that subject starting to change now. Uh finally it took a while, but uh, but in terms of architecture, no, I think it was there were enough quality people who were like minded that that made me think, Okay, yeah, this is worth looking into and pursuing. And and the people that I I uh I think are smart and uh I really like and who love the game are into this too, And so that that never that part of it never felt
that that that odd. It was more of trying to convince people, Okay, look at these photos we found, wouldn't this be better? And I think that that was the hard part. And I think the part that's changed now with Photoshop, with Google Earth and all these different visual tricks, it is a lot easier to convince people of what some used to look like and how it would look, how that would be the better look now for a course, Yeah.
I think that's I mean, the biggest thing I see, you know, the place I play golf here in Chicago is just like draft is so overgrown and then you look at the old photos and there's no trees anywhere, you know, and they you know, they've planted thousands of trees, and you know, I talk to members and and they're like, you know, hey, those trees have been here forever. I
point to a picture in the clubhouse. Yeah, there's not there, And you know, it just it limits the amount of strategy when you don't have any with obviously, you know, you see it even on tour. You know, I'd be interested to hear what your thoughts were on Aaron Hills and you know, kind of the course and you know how it played out. You know, I think it's a very polarizing topic in.
Golf, polarizing in this you mean the post Aaron Hills reaction is polarizing.
Yeah, I think. You know, obviously people just get I think people just get so hung up on par But you know, in my eyes, I looked at at that course and I thought it delivered a really good championship and we saw a variety that on the leaderboard that we'd never seen before with with different styles of play in the US Open, and I you know, I look at it and I attributed it to the with.
Yeah, I'm with you. On that. You know, I didn't have I wouldn't say high hopes for that one for Aaron Hills, and and and in part you know, I look at not just the design but also just the how is it going to function as a venue, Is it going to have energy? And h is it gonna be somewhat reasonable to get to? And so getting there
actually worked really well. The energy on site was great because the fans there were so passionate and and it was a beautiful It was very much like an Open Championship, especially Sunday when it cooled off a little and the wind was blowing. It was eerie how much it felt like an Open in the UK, but on television it was. It was interesting that the reaction was, well, where were
the people, where was the energy? And it really, I think was a learning experience for a lot of people to then go to Connecticut the next week where you had people right on top of the action, and how that totally change the energy for the person launching at home. But then, of course, as you know, so many people seized on that winning score and it was part seventy two.
The greens were absolutely immaculate. The width was sensational and I think necessary based on what everybody tells me there on what happened on Saturday before the Open, with the wind that they have days there where if you don't have that width there, they're just going to have a freak show out there. So it was unfortunate arranged and that made the width play even more substantial than some
people would like. But you know, other than them not spotting the overspray and the high rough right off the edges and dealing with that sooner, uh the place was immaculately presented. The architecture was way better than when I first went there, and way more interesting and and uh so I view it as a positive open and and and then we'll remember it as one and and I think I think history will be kind to it as well. And I don't think anybody's gonna sit there and go, well,
that was a that was a disaster. And and you know the other thing and is, you know, from a plane, people just forget how awful the feeling is when an open, is a US Open, or any major or any golf tournaments tainted by course set up where you feel like it went too far and it costs somebody the championship for for reasons that can't really be explained other than it went too far. So if you air a little bit on the other side, I'm sorry, but that's just infinitely better.
Yeah, yeah, I I completely agree. I think it allowed everybody to play their style game. I mean, like, yeah, I think, you know, like the short grass around the greens even to extent, allowed people that were great are great at short you know, at chipping and pitching the ball, you know, a place to showcase their skills because you know, in a traditional US Open, you know, you get in seven inch rough around the greens and no matter how great you are, you're probably not going to get up
and down. But you saw Patrick Reid on on Saturday put on a clinic and the whole day he was short sighted.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And they manage those areas very carefully. And I don't know how much that came through two people watching from Afar, but they had different mowing heights. For some they were nervous. They were nervous about a lot of things going into this Open, and rightfully so,
they did not want to have a bad week. They didn't want to have a week with balls rolling up and down greens and so I think they did the right thing airing the way they did and got a very very deserving champion.
So do you think Aaron Hills you voting yes for another open?
I think it would. I think it will probably get one, but I think it'll be a long time, partially because they're so already locked in to so many venues. But yeah,
I think it will get another one. I don't know if it would be my top choice, to be honest, there's just so many places that I mean when I look when you look at where they're going the next eight venues and likely actually the next ten if they go to some of the places we suspect, And there's just something about the places with history and architecture and stories that you you kind of love to hear and and great ways to remind people of the past and
other tournaments that's just different than going to the new venues. And I think that's my only issue going to Chambers and Aaron Hills the way they did that, they only had one amateur and in Aaron Hills case of public links and amateur public links, and I think you just have to go places where you have to have more events on them before you go there. In fact, I you know LA Country Club, Well, somebody will say, well, wait a second, they're going to get US Open and
all they're going to have is a locker cup. And I think it's after seeing what I saw at Aaron Hills, I would like to see LA Country Club host a couple of one or two things like a US Open sectional qualifying, just get a few more things in there to just see how good players play on a course, because there's just it's very difficult, as you know, to envision what a course is going to play like with really good players on it until you get it kind of ramped up and an in tournament condition and get
those players out there. And I think that that was something that hurt both Chambers and and Aaron Hills, especially because they're they're they're more complicated golf courses and scale and turf and location and all that then and people of course, like like La and people, you.
Know, like getting people around the course. You know, the LCC had packed twelves a couple of years ago, right, and I did, as I remember. The feedback was really positive for that also.
Oh it was amazing. It was so fun, you know, the first day, uh, scoring was incredible, and because they had it set up a little easier and then it just got tougher and tougher in a good way. And it was it was so much fun to watch and
it was so fascinating me. My favorite memory of that was on the in the final round, Casey Martin was was going out on the fifteenth green when his player would get up on the tee and directing them where to hit their shot the landed so that it would then spin down properly to the whole because the hole was playing ninety five yards the short part three the pin was up. They were playing the basically the red tea box and although the reds are now gone, but
it's another color now. I think it's green. But then it was just fun to watch that the golf course get firm to the point where where a coach was was watching what other guys were doing, was able to tell the players that. And it was intense, I mean it was really by the last the last round, it was an intense test of golf and and and just great fun to watch.
Yeah, it's it's interesting with college golf, how how involved the coaches are with like you know, like that I went to the NTAs this year and and you know, for the it was kind of my first in person exposure. But I mean, like they are like almost more involved than a caddy would be, and and you know, instructing
these kids where to hit their shots, reading putts. I mean it, it's interesting how like they're able to you know it, they're almost better than at caddy because they could go watch you know, another team play a hole five holes before you get there.
Yeah, And that was that was the interesting thing for me at the PAC twelve because there are coaches who don't do that. They have a very simple style and they they sit back. And then I noticed it though in the NCAA's I'm a telecast more than ever, how many more coaches are getting out there and and essentially caddying.
And I think for the most part, that's a good thing for a player, but I there were a few times where you were like, coach, get off the green, Okay, you don't need to tend the flag, and you don't need to shake your guy's hand before he shakes his opponent's hand at the end of the match. That kind of thing that was that was bothersome to me. So
and I noticed that it was interesting. Some some people at the Golf Channel also noticed it, and I think they must have gotten some feedback on it because there is a there is a fine line there but between being a coach and being upfront and also just letting your players play and play their match.
Yeah, it's it's interesting. It's uh, you know, eventually, I don't know. I the way I play a game. I think I just I just have to go be myself, you know, like if I have somebody telling me exactly what to do, I'll probably just screw up.
But no, there are a lot of people like that. That's that's why they're drawn to golf.
So what what course would you like to see host major championships, whether it's the PGA or the the US Open that you don't that currently isn't hosting major championship golf?
Hmm, oh boy, that's uh, that's an interesting one. I mean, it's tough to say because of the way the ball goes. There's there are a lot of places that would be great fun to see these guys play, but they just can't. It's just it would just be dumb to watch them try and play it and and and be tested in a way that was interesting. You just would you know, a Cypress point or something like that our Fisher's Island
would be fascinating. But we just won't get that, I don't think until they do something about the distance and and that. You know, so those places still might not want them. But I guess if I had to vote, the one that would be the most interesting to me to watch the great players play if they were playing a ball that was suited for the course would be the National Golf Links of America. Yeah, I think that would be That would be the one.
Mm hmm. It's uh, that's that's one that I gotta go see here eventually. In terms of you know, I know you're you're you're pretty passionate about the ball and rolling back the ball, and I think, I mean, I don't know how I hit the ball further every year, you know, if it's not the ball when I'm you know, in not as good of shape and play a lifeless and less but seemingly I add five yards of distance every year, but you know, the ball is not going
any further. What would you like to see? You know, like, what do you think is the solution? Is it a pro ball and an amateur ball or you know, and how does that work.
I really love I've always loved the idea of a classic course ball and branding it that way and calling it that and I think it's very similar to what Mike Davis floated, this variable distance ball. What he floated, I think was a little more intricate in terms of potential ways the ball could go. And it may just be a political reason they put that out there that you would you could have a ball that actually goes longer for say women to play Aaron Hills or whatever
it is. It's bring certain courses within reason for lesser talented golfers. But I think that the main focus would be something that allows you to play, that allows an elite offer to go to Pine Valley and have Pine
Valley play like it did twenty years ago. And you know, that's why I've always kind of liked the classic course concept, because saft spikes really started at Riviera and a few other great old courses and spread because they had that sort of endorsement of the classic course element and that it was for the good of the maintenance of those courses.
And now look where we are where spikeless is all over the game, and I think that having some of those courses a Marion, a Cypress Point, a pine Valley be able to be played and also turn in a score for handicapping purposes with a ball that is accounted for would be the way started and see where it goes. But I think the architecture element is more interesting, and then you know the pros it has to happen. There's
just no way. I don't know how they're going to play some of these venues coming up on the US Open circuit after what we saw at Aaron Hills without a ball suited those weeks, and we'll have to listen to all the whining about, oh, it's so hard to
adjust and how dare you do that? And it's it's hogwash, of course, because they just went down to the Mexico city where there's altitude and they all without their track man and they make some adjustments, and I mean, you talk about what a non story that ended up being, because it's just so it's never been easier to adjust your equipment and and you're thinking on distance with track man and with the knowledge you know, the caddies are so good now and they know so much and so
so that element of say we had ali a Master's ball at Augusta, and every company made it, and they made their they made the specs and they tested them. Yeah, it's a little bit of a pain. And yeah, there's going to be a situation where somebody's gonna wonder if somebody's playing a juiced ball. But I don't think that's going to happen too much. And I think it has to happen. I think it will happen, I really do.
I think that the climate has changed and people are kind of realizing that it's not growing the game as we've been told it would.
Yeah, I mean I think I played Chicago golf last week and something I noticed is just like, you know, like the principal's nose bunker on double plateaus is completely useless now. I mean, where it used to be something that people would have to work. Like, you hit a bad drive and all of a sudden you have this bunker to contend with. Now it's almost more of a bunker off the tee than it was than it is
for a second shot. And you see this and it's like, wow, this is this great golf course where you have this beautiful architecture with like Barritz holes, and it's so rare to play a radan actually the way a radan should be played, because the ball goes so high and you're hitting such short shots into this two hundred yard hole, you know, and the same with a Burrits it's almost impossible to run the ball up to it well.
And that's the biggest change since I've been bitching and moaning about distance that when I started, a good players would always go, well, just put a tea back, just do this, just grow the rough, narrow it, and you know, I'd get pretty frustrated with that, and then it's just gradually changed where people no longer and this is the exciting thing to me, is that you no longer have to convince somebody that that those things are bad ideas. It's people have come to realize, wait a second, this
we have this architectural treasure. Why would you why would you do these things to it? Just because because the ball and the equipment is so good now, and so I think that that the the climate is out there that good players now no longer feel like it's the job of the course to to to really adjust to the equipment and so that's a huge, huge change and you hear it in players. I hear it in people who go to Pine Valley like, oh, well that wasn't
very hard. You know, you want to say, well, one, the sand used to be all footprints and death if you hit it in there. And two yeah, but you know it's short. You don't even have any drivers there anymore unless you play a few of those silly new bacties and those are kind of kind of absurd. But so that to me is an exciting change that good players are now kind of on board like, oh yeah, I'm not really getting tested the way I want to be tested, and it's not as fun.
So outside the ball, like, what do you think has been kind of like the biggest tech technological advance that's kind of diminished skill in the game.
Oh the size of the driver head for sure. And and and that's one that that you know, Adam Scott feels very strongly about just reducing the size of the head a little bit and you'd see a big change in distance and also a reward for for the truly great drivers of the ball. And I would love to
see that. I think I would love to see an event that that that does that just just just limits the size of the head and let's look at the numbers and let's see how it plays, and let's see if the the if if it remains in line with who the best drivers are driving the best that week. I think it would be fascinating. And you know, things like that, we don't We just don't do. You know
NASCAR has restrictor plates on cars for certain tracks. Why why don't we do that in golf where where we we have our version of restrict plates so that the architecture can shine and the course doesn't have to make silly changes.
Yeah, I love that idea, I think. I mean, you see that the change in the way people even swing, and you know, this new era of the young twenty somethings have grown up with these massive driver heads, and their swings reflect it. I mean they're swinging up on the ball and they really swing pretty much as hard as they can, knowing that, hey, my miss isn't really
that big of a deal. You know. I remember playing like small one hundred and ninety cc heads that if you mishit it, I mean it was going nowhere and really far right or left.
Well, oh yeah, Yeah, it was cool, and I don't want to go back to those days for all of us. And I don't even think that we're talking about a reduction in the driver head size that would be even close to that. But just just even a slight reduction, which is what I Adam Scott's mentioned, would would make a huge difference three thirty or somewhere in there and that, but we won't know until we try it, so we need that to happen first.
So curious, you know, say, say I gave you just like this great piece of land, unlimited budget, and you could you could resurrect any architect dead or living, you know, and and you wanted to, you know, do a whole you know. Of course, who who would you have design your course?
Probably well, obviously I have a strong bias towards George Thomas and Billy Bell, so it would it would it would be them, or it would be uh McKenzie with Robert Hunter. Probably. I just I feel like in terms of the whole package of design and artistry and construction, function and and just beauty, and that those were the teams that that kind of took it to another level.
And uh I uh yes, I'm I think Thomas was was the master more than anybody at at creating something that looked great the first time you saw it, but then had had enough intricacies within that wouldn't make you want to play it over and over again. And his view was that that era of golf architecture, what they did was just the beginning, and then we'd have more courses with the intricacies of the old course, the day to day variety and and that and and Mackenzie wrote
that too, and that didn't happen. Obviously, we went we went backwards instead of courses that were actually more uh complicated and in their design in a way that was fascinating and and and in line with what drew people to the old course to begin with, which I think is fascinating thing. They viewed it that way.
It's uh yeah, it's.
Also I mean, it makes sense you would think they were they because remember their view was, well, we were just trying to get people away from a certain kind of bad penal design and unattractive looking courses and courses that didn't drain and and look good. And so they logic would tell you, okay, we've got it back to this point. But now the next generation's going to go this way. Well, it turned out that it went the opposite.
It's interesting too, because, like the the architecture behind really great strategic holes is really kind of simple, and it just seems like what happened was it got overdone and the subtlety is what makes really intricate and great design is subtle little things, not sixty five bunkers down the left side of a fair way.
Well, what's funny too is that with better construction and machinery and more knowledge and more technology to do things, we actually went backwards in terms of the the attention to detail and creating those little intricacies that that would make it better and long term a golf course would have more permanence. And you know, I think their view was that the more you got that kind of technology to build a course faster, it would allow you to spend more time working out the details and the little
stuff that we love. But it's gone the opposite way. It's just people build it faster and crank it out and move on to the next thing. Or they did, And obviously we're shifting backwards now in that and Core
and Crenshaw are really the ones who I mean. Pete Die kind of kind of started it with with opening our eyes to links golf, but then Coren Crenshaw kind of taken it to the next level on the on the construction and subtlety side and getting that that great mix of something that looks visually enticing but then also has a real charm when you when you play it.
Mm hmmm. It's you know, so, I know you've written You've written a great book on Cyprus, and something I've been curious to ask you is, you know, obviously Rayner did the routing there and you know, passed away, so you know, then Mackenzie took over. What do you what do you think the course and how do you think it would be compared to the course that's there now it had Rainer done that job.
I yeah, I always struggle with the idea of his his aesthetic working on that land.
Uh.
It just really just is hard to picture. As much as I love his golf courses, I just don't know if that that's what would have worked there compared to what was built with the sort of fringy bunkers that mimicked the shapes of the cypress trees, and you know, the routing changed quite a bit after he passed away.
It changed, it changed from Mackenzie's first routing, and that's all stuff that they were bickering with Samuel Morse about the fourteenth coal they wanted along the cliffs, and they had the seventeen mile drive that ended up going there, and that was kind of a late and the game change, and there were other changes. So that's kind of my sense.
I'm glad that. I'm not glad that Seth Rayner died, but he died, but for the sake of Cypress Point, I think for that site, it was the what they ended up with was was the right style of architecture for that kind of ground.
Yeah, I mean, I think one of my favorite, you know, pictures in all of golf is like the was it the fourteenth hole that goes down into the right and you see, you know, you see the water, but then the bunkers how they just kind of creep up into the dunes. I mean, it's adn't natural. Look, that's almost unparalleled on any other course in America at least, so you know, in terms of you know, so say say you can have any any course in America to restore you know, it could be a public, it could be
a private. You know, like what course you know sticks out in your head is one that you would love to do a restoration or you know, slash renovation of.
Well on the public side, obviously, I'm I'm hopeful that something happens at Sharp Park. I'm I'm hopeful that, you know, someday that something like Cobbs Creek will happen. That's that's another amazing site potentially, It's it's just just an incredible
opportun tunity. But I think if I I mean, if there was one golf course I would love to see restored and when and would love to try to figure out how to do it, would it would be Pebble Beach and getting it back to the nineteen twenty nine Chandler Egan post Chandler Egan Redo look, and that's the one that the more people who see the photos of that and ask questions, the more I think it just gets so intriguing to realize what it wants, what it had, what it became when Egan redid it, and how it
changed from that. I think it would just blow people away. It would. It would be incredible.
So, you know, I think, you know, obviously one of the issues there is kind of the commercialization of Pebble Beach and you know, yeah, yeah, but you know, I think with what Mike Kaiser and Core and Crenshaw are doing is they're promoting a rougher look is a good look, So you know, I think, you know, I would say, and personally, I think, you know, five ten years it might not be that crazy to you know, to foresee that being a viable option, would you agree.
I agree, Yeah, I think that that the trend is such that they will. I think, you know, rankings for don't have a lot of positive uses these days, but but one thing that they are useful for is is highlighting a course kind of getting left behind in a way in the and the restoration world that we're seeing now that as you said earlier, that there aren't I can't name any of these where people did a pure restoration where people were really unhappy. In fact, they can't name one at all.
Yeah, I'm sure there's something that you know, I've heard, like somebody some people at Colonial don't like what Teeth Foster did, although they liked it initially, So I you know, I don't know that one looks like he.
Did a very nice job to me, but maybe more people parkening back to wanting the Cogan era look to it. And there were some things changing, floods, whatever. But I mean that that's really I think, getting desperate trying to
find an example. So I think that when you look at that and the rankings and panelists rewarding places that do this and rewarding them not because just because they did it, because they go there and they play and they they go, wow, this is this is so much fun, especially if they played it before and and that's something
that yeah, where Pebble Beach could could succumb. It's just as you know that it's such a to close that course down and do that, and the economic impact on the course, the lodge and the seventeen mile drive area would be pretty incredible. It's a it's a I think we were bored one day at the US opened last time it was there, and did the masks. A few people.
We were sitting around and coming up with some possible numbers and I can't remember what they were, but they were they were hefty on the impact to the region if they were to shut the course down for nine months.
You know, just get a cypress point to open up to the public. Right, Yeah, happened.
That's not gonna happen. Not going to happen. Although you know it really Samuel Morris developed it. It was part of the uh, it's part of the family. You know, maybe it could it could do that for a little while. They could charge two thousand dollars green fees and they'd probably be booked immediately.
You know, My grandpa used to go out to there, and I guess they used to sell like these week passes to Cyprus if you knew a member or something, so he'd get it for like a week. And one time one of his buddies, one of his buddies came out and his buddy hadn't ever seen pebble, so he insisted that they go play. And like, you know, till his deathbed, it was one of my grandfather's like greatest regrets was was having to leave Cyprus to go play pebble for a day.
Yeah, I can and I can understand that. Of course, that's a nice problem to have, is uh. Tele tebble even and and and don't get me wrong, in this state, it's still a great experience. It's still breaks fun to play. There's still nothing quite like it.
So, uh, you know, one of the courses i'd love to see like a restoration of And I'm sure you're pretty familiar of it with it being from l A. And I just love to hear your two cents is is Rancho Park? Mmmm?
Yeah, Rancho is more of a meaning uh just needing some some care. Not that the people who work there don't care, it's just that the city of la has kind of neglected it's it's all of its courses and doesn't know really what what the what is what people want in terms of of turf. You know, they think people want green grass, but then we've had our drafts, so they've cut the water back. And I mean, I hear Rancho is so baked out at times that it's just not not it's it's and it's not good firm,
it's not link firm. It's this baked out, rock hard thing that that hurts when you hit a ball. And so it's a sensational golf course in terms of being a cast of every shot, every stance and lie and and and you have to move the ball and it's it's it's really fun that way, and the players who always played there. I caddied in the Senior Tour event when it was there. And the old guys who would play there are the Trevino's and they used to get
great fields at that event. Jack Nicholas never played, but of course Arnold Palmer had a great relationship with Rancho Park and always played, and and Trevino and player would play. And it was so much fun watch those guys hit
shots around there. Billy Casper slinging these big big that was it the point where he was sitting a huge hook and watching him play that golf course and shape shots, and then watch somebody like al Geiberger kind of go around with his smooth tempo or Dave Stockton grinding it out. And it really is an amazing place that you wish would be would be just better, just a little better presented. And I think they've taken a hit interestingly there. It's not as crowded as it used to be. Of course,
it used to be ridiculous, you couldn't. People would spend the night to get out there, and now you can go out on in any afternoon and get out pretty easily. And part of that's the state of golf. Part of it's the state of the way they they run it and present it. They don't have a pro shop. I mean, the vendors of all the pro shops in the city of la have other than I believe the barbers still at Griveth Park have walked away from their their shops. Just the city can't even make those work and make
it work for them. So it's it's one of the reasons why I think people aren't very excited about the Olympic golf when it comes here. It's like, oh, great, We're gonna go to Riviera. And meanwhile, we have this public course system that's kind of in shambles, and wouldn't it be nice if we we could have this be nicer and or even maybe use something like Griverth Park for the for the games, but we we are not there.
Have they picked? Have they picked Riviera as the site? Officially?
They did? They did. They were originally going to consider
a public course renovation, uh. And they when the IOC went in on the whole use existing venues thing, they gravitated towards Riviera and and it's it's gonna be very interesting because I don't send a lot of good vibes from people that that's gonna be something that gets people excited, especially if the format doesn't get more interesting fairly quickly, because of course we see every year and so we're just gonna go play another stroke play event at Riviera.
That's great, That's that's not very exciting.
I mean you think about the money they put into like the Rio course. If you could put that into a course like Rancho Park, I mean, how good would that place be.
Yeah, And there's just such a different vibe when you play a tournament in the middle of the city at of course that the public can play. It is I mean those those Champions Store events, well it was a senior tour then at Rancho used to get huge crowds. I mean amazing for La you know, twenty twenty five thousand people on the weekend, and granted, you know you had Trevino and some others not long past their their prime playing and Arnold Palmer. That's going to get people there.
But the energy is just so different and there's just nothing like it in tournament golf. But it's it's it's needs work, Yeah.
It's I used to live when I lived I lived in La for six months and one of my uh one of my places was like right next to Rancho Park. I could walk there oh much, and you know, I'd go out there at like five six o'clock like any I mean it, it's got the bones of such a good court. I think about it all the time. It's like, you know, in terms of a city owned course, like bones, and you know it it could be a really great
golf course. So something I'll just keep hoping for. But it doesn't sound like it's a it's got much of a chance. So so I'm kinda we'll get you out of here. You know, it's I got the holiday weekend. Uh we do. Our tradition is overrated, underrated. So we're gonna we're gonna fire some topics at you, and you just say overrated, underrated. The short part four.
I actually have come to the conclusion that's it's underrated. And for a couple of reasons. One, we're just starting to see people design more and more of them that are better and doing different things strategically. And by the way, am I supposed to give long answers and.
These you can do whatever you want.
But I think the other thing that besides the fact that we're just now starting to see all these cool iterations of holes and offshoots is that in the era of technology, the short part five has kind of died as the great risk reward hole, and the short part four has kind of picked up the slack and it's made I think people more than anything that's gone on, the interest in short Part four is in tournament golf in the last fifteen twenty years has raised awareness of
what architecture means to tournament golf, what architecture means to every day golf, and how fun well designed holes can be. And I think it's all the short part four. Maybe a few great risk reward part fives, but short part fours.
Everybody can enjoy the dynamics. You know, the average golfer can be playing a match with a better player and beat them on those holes because they play it nice and safe and the good player gets greedy that kind of thing, And so I can't get enough of them, and I hope, I hope it just keeps going and people keep demanding more of them on every course.
Yeah, I really like it. I think I think part of the issue like it. And it's obviously like a huge you know, viewing standpoint, Like there's like a you know, a viewing appeal to it. Something that drives me nuts, though, is how people like don't appreciate long par fives, Like how it it like it has this stigma of like it when they were out at Baltisral and everybody was like all over the seventeenth hole for like, oh, it's
so boring. It's like that's like one of the greatest long par fives in golf, you know, And I think that short part four is kind of I've led to that and it's like, well, like you know, they're the great architecture, isn't just you know, I don't know. I think they're almost overrated because they've become so popular. But that's just me think contrar.
Yeah, one of the interesting things that's happened on the long par five. And would I would agree with you in the sense that they have lost their luster because in the technology era, you felt so much pressure on the t shot and the second shot to hit two good shots to give you yourself that good third. And
now you hear this all the time. The guys, well good players will tell you, well, it's just one hundred yard part three, we couldn't go for it, and so they forced us to basically play one hundred yard part three. And I don't disagree with that assessment when but it also you know, helps when you can hit a three hundred and twenty yards and then you can hit a hybrid, you know, two seventy. Yeah, it's kind of it took
seven hundred yards. And by the way, we just had almost seven hundred yards of Aaron Hills with not much role and we still had guys get home into Yeah, so to actually build a long par five that does what you're you're getting at, which is put that uh importance on on every shot. Uh, you really have to, I think for good players have about eight hundred yards.
It is kind of crazy. Yeah, I mean, well, and he hit three shots that's uh, or it needs to be like seven.
And there wasn't that much roll. That's what's scary. It was and there wasn't that much wind. It was just slightly down wind and a little bit of roll, but nothing abnormal.
Maybe they need to go up.
That was that was nuts. Yeah's and oh yeah, by the way, oh yeah, by the way, it basically is slat or the last part of that a tenth pall of Aaron. It's just is a little slightly up. I mean, yeah, yeah, the tea, the tee t shot is elevated.
Correct, yeah, most of me.
Not like you're driving off a cliff. It was. It was incredible what they did there. And I heard nobody in the press tentk going wow, that's amazing. It was like, Okay, this is ridiculous, this is absurd, and that that's a big change a few years ago. If I had said, and I was the one just sitting there going just nodding, and I didn't have a strong view either way because I'm used to this, the ridiculousness of this now. But it was fascinating. That was the takeaway was not all
these guys are amazing athletes. That is so awesome. They did that on a six hundred and eighty seven yard hold. It was consistently okay, enough enough enough, we have to do something.
Yeah, it's uh, it's out of control. I played. I played golf last year with a fourteen year old who hit it like fifteen yards pass me. I hit it like three hundred yards. And I was like when I was fourteen, Utterly, when I was fourteen, I hit a two hundred yards.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it's insane and they have no The only thing I don't, you know, and I hate, I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but what it where it does bother me is the game is no longer humbling these kids, uh and and I think there is some positive element in the game. I don't want to go back to Hickory's and being humbled by hitting a snap book and and and or in the persimmon and steel. That's we don't need to do that. But it would be nice if they they had to
swing just slightly more cautiously at the ball. But with track Man and the equipment of the combination, uh, you're just you're just going to keep seeing more, uh more more guys like Champ from from Texas A and m and who just are are freakishly long.
And I think it diminishes like the impact of like, you know, great long iron players, you know, because.
Oh absolutely, they're just there.
Aren't any long irons anymore. You know, long irons are you know, an occasional par three and and pretty much you know par fives.
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, no, it's it's definitely a lost part of the game. So and then, by the way, a lot of venues, it's all the driver also gets taken out of their hands because of this. So and to me that's a shame too. I want to see the driver used.
What do you think about hosting a tournament at like a sixty eight hundred yard classic course. That's like obviously if it rained at all, you know, we'd have to put a dome over it. But that's like, you know, nice and crispy, you know, firm and fast where you know guys could go for the green. But all of a sudden, you know, if you hit into the wrong spot, you've got you know, impossible angles and and so on. So far, what do you think about a golf turn being played at something like that?
It would be nice, but you know, if if you're okay with them hitting iron off most of the t's which is where we're headed, and I'm not okay with that. I like to see the driver used and used to to to gain a reward. And that's the problem. That's where you need the ball that that is better suited for those courses.
Yeah, that's true. So next next topic, we'll do modern green design overrated underrated.
Uh, well, they're overrated and that most of them aren't very good, so they're they're underrated and how bad they are. And that's not all the architects fault, but I h it's it's two things. It's it's the one that the u s g A green or the or the modified us G greens. It's very hard to construct and very high, hard to tie into the surrounds and the kind of
had the fairway just meld into the green. I mean the best courses, you feel like the green is almost just an extension of the contours of the ground and the fairway. And I think that's why people respond to links golf so much, because those that's exactly what they are.
So when you're playing this kind of nice, gentle ground and then you come upon this thing that's sort of propped up artificially and overcontoured, it's it's it's it's offensive to me and most people's senses, and a lot of it's the The construction of the USGA green is just very hard to do. That That's why Corn Crenshaw don't build USGA greens. They dump a big area of sand where the green complexes and then and then melded into the the fairway and the surrounding landscape.
Yeah. I think. I think one of the things that's happened with like the modern era of architecture, where you know, we've got this playability and we get all this with is that architects focus like, oh, I'm going to make this tough for the good player by making this green crazy undulated, you know, and then it's like but like to me, I think, you know, when you have that big undulation is almost easier because you just you can see the break. You know, it's very clear which way
this putt breaks. And you know, you see these classic courses, a lot of them. You get on the green and and there will be these small little subtleties with the flatter greens where you can't even see the break and you're like, oh, this is right edge, and then you miss it a ball right because it moves a little and you and that's what drives you know, players nut versus you know that average players, it's going to try and ram it in the back of the hole and probably makes it.
Yeah. Yeah, No, subtlety and green design is definitely something that I think that's why people love what Ben and Bill do they they they have kind of that character that you're you just described. M.
Yeah, it's it's interesting. It'll be interesting to see how how it continues to progress. But I think that that less is almost more and and green. So Jordan Spieth overrated, underrated?
Uh? Well, I don't. I don't think he's overrated as a as a talent. I think he gets a lot out of his uh, his ability. I H So, I think he's uh, uh, he's a he's a complicated individual,
I think, more more so than people realize. And uh, I'm I I don't know if he should be if he should be trying to be calmer and quieter on the course, or if it'd be like Lee Tremino trying to shut him up and and and make him less funny and more serious, if if if it would backfire in that sense, as it would with Jordan, I think that he's uh. I I think he's an incredible talent. And uh, it's amazing what he's doing right now with his putting really not being even close to what it
was and looking so bad sometimes over the ball. I mean, I don't think people are giving him enough credit. How good his ball striking has gotten and you know, you know how the game is. Of course, soon as you work on that, you know, another part gets neglected. And I think that's what's happened with him a little bit. So if the putting just comes back to being solid, doesn't even have to be what it was in twenty fifteen, I think he's he's really really gonna win a lot.
So I don't know, maybe i'd say underrated in the sense that I think he's underrated and now how many things he's doing well. I just also but I do wonder about the attitude if all that, I mean this Fox picked up so much dialogue at Aaron Hills. My gosh, he talks a lot. On the course. He puts so much energy into all this, this immediate reactions to the shots and then in the play by play, and I part of me thinks that's great, that's his nervous energy,
that's how he functions. But part of me wonders, sees five and a half hours, Yeah, that's got to get exhausting.
It's it's interesting, It's I think it was either was it Phil that said you either have to be like incredibly intelligent or like extremely dumb. To be really great at golf.
Yeah, yeah, and I think he's.
Yeah, he's on the spectrum of incredibly intelligent and has you know, is thinking about so many different levels of things that I would me and you would never even you know, come across our mind versus you know, a Boo weekly I mean talk about all time right, contrasts and final pairings like you know, I think I think he's I think he's underrated, you know, I hear you hear people say like, oh, he got lucky to win that tournament, like well, like you know, as certain to
a certain degree, like you can't get lucky and win like what was he won ten times? Now?
Yeah that's not luck. Yeah, that's still I think the thing that's fascinating about him, that's that fascinates us with a lot of these players, like a Nicholas or Bobby Jones, is that you're right there. They are very thoughtful, introspective. They're noticing every little detail. And when you see somebody like that and you know golf, it's and Ben Crenchaw is the same way. He notices every little thing about
a golf course. But they are able to set aside whatever feelings they have about a course or the setup or the weather or this or that, and ultimately just just try to get the job done. And yeah, he's had times where he's i think lost a little of that just because he's he's pressing. But I think ultimately we're fascinated by those players way more than the one who's And nothing against Dustin Johnson, but it just kind of quietly just goes and doesn't really think too much.
I mean, we admire the way he handled Oakmont, but in terms of watching the sport, it's always been more interesting to study somebody who is thinking so much in a sport where you have so much time to think, but then is able to set things aside most of the time and play the shots no matter how they how they feel about them, for the circumstances.
He's I think if you were going to say one player to move the needle in this post Tiger generation, he's the only one that really could, you.
Know, yeah right now, He's the one that has a certain it factor that that would be obviously no one's gonna I don't think ever reached the level of Tiger in terms of being intriguing to general sports fans. He's just one of a kind. Somebody might come along, But I do sense that speak has something that makes people out the numbers show it that makes people want to tune in and and and watch him down the stretch. That's that's different than take your pick any of the other top players.
Yeah, so we'll do one more here. Omar your rusty as a PGA pro.
I don't know if he's underrated or overran. You probably noticed I did not take on this vital topic. This is a to me, a first world issue. I'm far more offended by people who played the tour for several years regaining their amateur status than a guy who played the tour who has become a sweater folder and made his way into the PGA Championship where they still where they give twenty spots twenty Okay, it wasn't like he
took the lone spots. So this controversy, to me, spoke to a certain kind of really delusional almost sense of what the Club Pro Championship means to the p Look. Nineteen other guys got in calm down, and that was kind of it for me. I'm again, I'm much more bothered by somebody who made a lot of money on the tour and then is going competing as an amateur again. That doesn't sit as well. Yeah, you know, I don't know if it sits well with anybody.
Well, I was in the midam last year and I'm looking down the field and I'm like, Mike Muir didn't he plan I look it up. He made like he almost made a million dollars play on tour and he's now he's a midam. I'm like, how am I in him at all? In the same you know field here? And you know I got guys like Jess Daley who you know, you know, played for you know, fifteen twenty years on many tours. I mean it to me, and you know he got his tour card for a year
or two. To me, that is like the biggest I don't understand how the USGA deems them an amateur because they haven't played, you know, for professionally for two years. You know.
Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of issues with amateur status right now. And not to go down a rat hole, but I really think we're at a point that's very dangerous for amter golf. The combination of the gobs of free equipment, the you know when I when I played, I had to actually cover my Pepperdine logo in a in a USGA qualifier a couple of times, and that was going too far, obviously. But this idea, now you have kids growing up with wearing all the corporate stuff
and getting free equipment. I don't you know the concept of the amateur And I got why it was done. It was to help people who who didn't have access versus those who did to great stuff and great equipment, and it is vital in the way the equipment impacts the game now, but I feel like it's undermining amateur golf in a way that's really really dangerous. You know, we have this Walker Cup in the US Amateur coming up here in southern California. I don't sense any enthusiasm
for either one. I don't think people even know what amateur golf means anymore. So it's like, oh, okay, it's like some you know, college kids or what is it. You know, you try to explain it to people, and this is a US freaking amateur here. Come on, this is this used to be a big, big deal, and
I just don't know. I think they went a little too far in allowing the rules to bend, and then you throw in things like that reinstate and amateurs, which they're not having the impact that they did early on, but it doesn't make you feel like the amateur game is as pure as it once was or should be.
You know, it's something that's really interesting as like how the USGA over the last year has it to me, it looks like they've prioritized. Hey, you know, we're we're kind of more backing professional golf than amateur golf. You know, they eliminated the state team, which was a big mid am event. Then they they cut one of the mid am spots and and from what I've heard, they're going to cut a second mid am the second mid am spot, and then they added another professional turnament.
I'm sorry on the on the walker cut the meme. Yeah yeah, yeah, no that that and I think that was a mistake though too, and that all David Fay said it best when it happened, So it should have just been an unwritten rule. You're going to take two midamters because there's gonna be a year and this year could even be the year, or you actually want to
take three. Uh, you don't know what's either way college golfers are turning crow, there're gonna be years where you don't want to take any or you only take one. And they have made it. The set number was it almost was the meaning to the minameter game. To me, that that like they needed this charitable but anyway go on.
But then but then so they eliminate the state team and then you know, they and then and then they're eliminating these spots. So it's like you're killing the am I mature, you know, like because you know, you're saying, hey, we're going to feel the team of all future pros. And then they add, you know, they eliminate state team and add the US Women's Senior Open, you know, another professional term. And and to me it's just like, you know,
it leaves me scratching my head. It's like, you know, like you know, what's the difference between the state team and which one actually moves the needle more the Senior Women's Open. Is there an audience for that?
I don't think so. And especially with the age when it being fifty, you know, I just I don't think I think that's too old. I think that that really women mature faster and they their their careers speak accordingly, and that it should have been forty five years old. But that's another story. It'll be the great golf Course, So there's that. But yeah, I'm I think that the USCA in general is has a I mean, look, they made their first tea starter at the US Open is
a longtime golf pro. And not pick on him, but if you told Frank Hanigan or some of the PJ Bowwright that they'd made the first t announcers job lifetime appointment to a longtime PGA pro and not a somebody who serves the game as in the amateur game or has served the USGA, they just would they would just lose their minds, like what are you trying to do?
Here?
Are you trying to be? And Frank always warned against this trying to be loved, and that's kind of what's happened. I'd also throw in I'm not sure how the four balls have really gone over very well yet so far. I don't I'm not sensing the time of year is working and for the people that they wanted to be playing in those events. That does that seem like a fair observation?
Is it is a bad time of the year, like you know, like for example, like I played my qualifier in like October, you know, and then the event is in end of May. You know, it's like, yeah, I don't know the date.
The date seems to have been chosen to try to prevent college players from being able to play in it. But instead of yeah, what's the best date for for the majority? And I don't I don't see how as somebody who you know, that that they were hoping to get the person who's that plays a club club invitationals with a partner, that that that date works for them. I don't see it.
Well, the other issue is that you just have these kids that will go qualify their college players. If their team doesn't make it to the nationals there, then they play the floorball, you know, right right, So you haven't even protected that aspect of it. But you know, that's a you know, that's a whole bag of worms that about two thousand people in the in the world care about.
So yeah, yeah, we don't need to go down there at all. But I think it is worth exploring because overall, what it speaks to is, you know, the USGA is is I'm not going to say they're in crisis, But they definitely have an identity issue that they're they're they're obsessed with their brand and branding them and that's why you see their logo everywhere and and this is this
is the problem. They want to be loved. And so if we get to get back to the ball issue, they they know that that won't go over well as does the RNA if they do try and introduce something. So that's that is a big issue going forward on whether we ever get something done, because they will will they act in or not acting out of fear of
being vilified and hated for doing something. And that's why I but that's why I'm encouraged by the variable distance ball concept that they floated, because I think they found something which was kind of an argument a lot of us made all all along, was if you tailored balls to certain architecture and course is nobody can can argue with that. You know, go go play your your current
ball at Aaron Hills. But if you want to play Pine Valley the way it was supposed to be designed, or you want to play Rancho Park UH at sixty five hundred yards the way Lee Treno played it. UH and in the Uh, in the seventies in the LA Open and really really get to to have a great, great fun test of golf. That's it's and hit some long irons and shape some shots, play the variable the twenty percent or the ten percent reduced ball here and
you'll you'll, uh, you'll get your money's worth kind of thing. So, uh, it'll be very interesting to see if they're able to sell it. Uh, that's that's going to.
Be the key. Why doesn't a company just start making them? Like I don't know how big the market would be, but like I would.
You have I'm I'm with you. I don't I back to soft spikes. I've never understood why somebody doesn't want to be the first. And again it's all the packaging. You know, it's it's not gonna it's not gonna taint again. You know, maybe they look at things like coke and classic coke and and think, you know, there's there must be corporate business school stuff that's taught that that they've
they've picked up. Because I just can't grasp why you wouldn't want to be the court the ball that that caters to somebody like you, or to Buddy Marucci's or of the world or other people who play great golf courses and who are good players. Why you wouldn't It just seems like not a complicated thing to do to appeal to that group, because they're tastemakers. Let's face it, these all these old classic golf clubs can can change things.
And the saft spikes example is the perfect example of that that people are like, what are these stupid things that nobody's ever going to go away from? Spikes? Uh? And these places mandated it. They changed them out. Soft spikes became a became a verb or a noun. I'm not sure what what would that be? What it would be a uh, well, it's like Xerox, you know, instead of making photocopies, you you make a Xerox And and so I'm not sure why a company doesn't want to
be that one. I mean, Bridgestone, I believe is the one that's made balls for the U.
S c.
A that they've tested, but they have yet to uh, they've yet to come to market with this ball. And I think it's and it's hard to get a hold of them even like they're like they're asteroids, you know, and if you look at them too long you'll lose your eyesight or something. Give me a break.
I'm looking at eBay right now. You know, I'm thinking about buying some tour of biladas and taking them out for a spin next time I play someone.
Yeah, you know, yeah, I've got some. I was cleaning a closet here and I got some professionals that I kept. You know, now, that was the ball where it kind of made a big first, big leap. So they're not the tour Biloada would be the one. But I don't miss the days of those where you just breathe on them and you could, you could, you know, cut.
Them blade a ledge and they're done right. Oh is the market?
Yeah?
Signed the market forums? Rough, it's like fifty five bucks for a dozen. Unbelievable. You know what actually you know is so might have to go to some garage sales.
Yeah, yeah, that's you may have to stumble on them.
Now, now that we're talking about going to garage sales, I think we've we've hit our time here. So hey, I appreciate the time, And you got anything exciting coming up?
I'm heading to the UK for a few days at the Scottish Open and then the Open championship and uh, I'm gonna go see the the new golf course at Turnbury and I'll probably play a late evening nine or eighteen Prestwick. So things are things are good here. I'm looking forward. I've never been to Brookdale. I just started reading about it. I know very little. All I know is people love it.
Uh.
They don't really know why, but people just really respond to that course. So I'm very excited to see that as a as a venue. I think it's uh, it's it should be a lot of fun and uh it's a wide open open championship. So yeah, if you have any suggestions on other other courses around that area, uh, I'm all yours.
I haven't ever been, but you know, I read a lot. Yeah, I mean it's uh, it seems like there's it's like the best area in England for for golf, you know, is that brooked areas.
That's the view. But right from so far from what I've seen, that area is great, but it's still really hard to beat.
Scotland.
Just uh, you.
Should try and get out to the Swineley forests and uh.
And Lley don't call it finally that you'll upset the members there you can invite it out.
Walking.
Yeah, it's one area that I have I have not been able to do in depth, the Heathlands area, so it's definitely a priority. It's just that London this this this year is just not a city that I want to get too close to so day anyway. But I'm looking forward to.
Find a find a find a farmhouse or something, get out there and yeah, get out of the hustle and bustle, you know, absolutely all right, Well, Jeff, thanks, thanks so much, and uh well we'll talk soon, all right.
Thanks