¶ Intro / Opening
I miss a green for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a frid Egg Friday.
Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, Frida Egg Egg, Frida Egg bride Egg.
Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
¶ Explanation of Fried Egg events and next year's events in particular
Hello and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name is Garrett Morrison and I'm here today with Andy Johnson.
How you doing, Andy, Garrett, I'm doing wonderful. I'm ready.
Uh, by the time everybody will be listening to this will be past Christmas, but you know, just the holiday season. Ready for a laid back week next week. And yeah, excited to talk about events. That's a big thing for twenty twenty two, it was a big part of our twenty twenty one. And also excited to talk about a couple of courses today.
Yeah, we are devoting this episode to events. If you have no interest whatsoever in Frida Egg events, maybe this isn't the episode for you.
But we are talking about lossonia, so we are learning course to talk about los Sonia.
You know, we are doing that so that you know, may just fast forward.
There's some extra content. I'll put some timestamps in this description, but I think a lot of people would be interested in Frida Egg events. I mean they're they're really fun.
But just telling you that that is the subject of our discussion for the next I don't know, twenty minutes or so, and then we're going to have some clips from past episodes about courses and you and I are also going to discuss loss Sonia, which actually we haven't done on the podcast before, even though it's a very important course to you and to the Friday Egg and.
The og Frida Egg event course.
Yeah, absolutely, the Steam Shovel. But first of all, the reason we're doing this episode now is that sign ups are opening for the first batch of Friday events on Monday, January third. The events that are going to be available to sign up for are the King Tide at Charleston
Muni in Charleston, South Carolina. That's on April second. There's sign ups for the Boomerang at Seoul Park in Ohi, California, that's going to be on April twenty third, The Steam Shovel at Lasonia Links in Wisconsin that is going to be May fourteenth, The Coup de Gras at the Dunes Club in Michigan. That'll be May twenty sixth.
We also have an add on for that the day before for anybody that's playing in it at lost In You know, if you can play Tom Doaks Course the day before and then also play Dunes Club the next day.
This is great, that's news to me. And then we will also have a sign up for the Banker at Dornick Hills in Ardmore, Oklahoma.
I'm not sure that one's going on.
Is that one not going on?
I don't think that one's going up. I thought I thought you were going to. I think that one's in the next batch.
So but I excited about.
That that one is going to be coming up at some point. We'll we'll figure it. We'll figure it out everybody. In any case, there's going to be around of sign ups for Frida Egg events. And where can people sign up for an event or check out information for an event if they're interested in it, Andy.
It's on our website, which you know, I think is something that we're we're looking at overhauling in the next year.
But you have to go.
If you go to the fridagg dot com, there's a little sidebar that says browse topics, click there, and there's an event tab, so it's all under the Frida Egg events. I'm sure if you google the Frida Egg event it would just pull up that seems to be like how.
People do things now, which is easy enough.
So there you'll see the full calendar that's been announced to date. We have a few extras that are going to come in. I think we will be in Philadelphia in late August, and then you know, we have a couple other events that should pop up in the back half of the year, so expect to see some more events on there. And yeah, it's we're really excited about these. We were really thrilled with how they've gone over time.
Obviously COVID was a challenging situation, but you know, we last year they went swimmingly and we've had extremely good luck with weather, so it's been it's been really fun.
It's been great to get out and meet people.
And you know, one of the things that when we started these back in twenty nineteen, it would have been you know, we didn't really know what to expect. It had been something I'd been you know, ruminating on and you know for a couple of years and had been a part of Zach Blair's events that he was the
ringer that he had done. And you know, I think from our standpoint, we really love our community of people and you the listeners, readers, and this this is a what we kind of view this as as an excellent opportunity for people with that share real common interest in in our complete golf nuts like golf tragics, love seeing new and different and interesting golf courses a way for them to get together, you know, full disclosure, we could be doing things that would be better for our bottom
line than these. They take a lot of time and energy, and what we want to do is provide them at the lowest possible costs we can so that they are achievable and accessible for all types of golfers. So you can look at it and say, hey, I can go see a really neat course that I wouldn't be able to otherwise with the frieda Egg or you know.
And then also on the public side, you.
Know, uh, in the first three events of the year at public courses, we we want to celebrate and really give these public courses that provide unbelievable architecture at you know, affordable rates a lot of publicity and host these events and you know, host them. In the case of Lastonia, we're gonna have that one every year and and likely we'll have the sole park event every year. And we're
really excited about the Charleston event. I mean early April, and Charleston's about the best time of year to be there, and and you know, these these facilities that have that do such a are such wonderful stewards of both architecture and affordable golf. We want to celebrate those with with our events out there. So that's kind of like why we started doing Frida Egg events, and you know, it's something that we will continue to do. I think, you know,
our aim is to be around twelve events. Obviously, we have a lot of other editorial things between the Shotguns start three times a week, the Friday podcast, written articles in major championship weeks, with daily newsletters and such like that that we you know, it's going to prohibit us from ever doing fifty events or whatever.
We are not an events company. Yeah really this is this is one of the things we do.
But you know what we what we want to do, and one of the neatest things that I've seen and experience with the events is you see these like complete strangers and you know, they meet at the beginning of the day and you come back in from eighteen holes and it's lunch and you see these people. You walk in the room and it's like everybody's best been best
friends for years. And that's I think kind of the when we did the first steam shovel, I walked away like I saw people, you know, exchanging numbers, and all of a sudden, these new friends were made new golf friends. And you know, these are people that I've seen some that play together in events the next year. And that's been one of the most rewarding things that these events have really brought out, is that you know, people are becoming good golf buddies from the events, and I think
it's cool. You can come obviously with friends, but you can also come solo.
And that's the thing.
You're going to get paired up with somebody that loves golf, probably as much, if not more than you.
All Right, so you've given a good sense of why we hold the events, how they started all that kind of stuff, just to give people an idea of where we're going with this episode one, we wanted to let you know about some of the events that we're holding and the courses that we're holding them at. And so later in the episode we'll talk about law Sonia and we'll play some clips from episodes that we've done on Charleston Muni, on Soul Park, maybe on Dorni Hills, and
so that's where we're ultimately going with the episode. But first we wanted to talk about frequently ask questions about the events, because we get a lot of the same questions over and over again, understandable questions about Frida Egg events, and so one fundamental question is what's the basic format of a Friday event? What does the day look like?
Absolutely so all of our events to date are thirty six holes. The idea behind that is that we I always like playing a course and then I like seeing it again because you play it and you sometimes figure something out and you say, God, I wish I'd got a chance to play it again. But thirty six holes of your own ball is pretty taxing. So what we do is it's it's like a Mirfield day, So it is eighteen holes of best ball with your partner. In the morning, we have a gross and a handicapped division.
You're automatically entered into both. So it starts at around eight o'clock, depending on daylight, maintenance crews, how you know what time we want to get going, But it starts
around eight o'clock eighteen holes the best ball. In the morning, we have breakfast set up, you know, just grab and go breakfast sandwiches and you get your t gift then and then we come back in after eighteen holes the best ball with a it's a shotgun start, and everybody has lunch, and then we go back out in the afternoon for eighteen holes of alternate shot.
This is really fun.
One of the things that we do that I think is unique is that everybody plays in eight sums and ten sums, so there's four or five balls, and it's just a great way to meet a lot of people. And I think alternate shot is a daunting format if you've never played it, but the more you play it, you realize it is probably the most fun and the most team format of golf.
You know, it really makes you work with your partner.
And I think, like I always say this before events, like the best thing that you know, the best moment in your alternate shot life is when you start to realize, like I should I like you. Your mentality shifts away from being sorry for your partner and it shifts to like, oh, thank god, I just don't have to hit that next one, you know, like you just like.
Saying to your partner at the beginning of it, let's not apologize to each other, yeah, about the positions that we're going to put each other in, because it's going to come back around at some point. This is just golf. It's what happens. Don't feel sorry.
I think like that's like one of the funny things is like people always apologize for golf shots, Like like why are you apologizing if you try? Like the only time that anybody could ever be mad if you like
just got up and just don't try. But everybody always is trying, so so anyways, then it's that after the alternate shot, we have or dervs, you know, typically we buy a round or two of drinks for the group and then everything else is kind of on your own, and then we have a shootout and who gets into the shootout are net winners of the alternate shot and the and the best ball, and then low gross winners of the alternate shot and the best ball, and then
some wildcard teams which are basically the you know, total based off of totals, so low gross, low net totals the next three group, and it's usually about eight to ten teams, and we go out and do a four hole shootout. Typically, depending on light, it might be a you know, a single elimination, so it's kind of a flexible thing based off of a you know, the light
and the constraints of the day. So the shootout's really fun. Usually, you know, most people stick around and come out and watch, and that's an alternate shot format.
And then the winners get you know, we do prizes.
Typically, we've done golf Bay and custom betan Ardi putters, which are kind of one of two putters. They're really deap they have the event logos on them, and we have heavier derves and and people stick around so for a little while. Monday's Monday events that at Private club's a little bit shorter of a hang than the Saturday events.
Yeah, but there's usually a really fun little scene afterwards where people get to talk and circulate and make some new friends. And that's always been my favorite part of the day, you know, after the golf is done and people are just relaxing and having a few drinks. So all right, so when somebody goes to a Friday event, they get the golf, they get thirty six holes of golf, they get this shootout.
They get a tea gift, they get a t gift, and that ranges from you know, be dready polos to pullovers.
Some events we do, you know ZR stuff. It's something different every time.
Yeah, it's it's all events specific. But you know, we name all the events. I think that's one thing that you know in all the names are based off of like something that either happened to the course, something like local. So for example, like the King Tide was a you know, king tides used to wreck Charleston Beauni. It would cause the place to flood, and it's a it's a you know, aspect of the low country, and every time there was
a King tide, the course would flood. So we're you know, that doesn't happen anymore, so that we're calling the event the King Tide. The steam shovel, for example at at at Lassnia, is based on the tool the equipment that was used to build the course in nineteen thirty.
This this course is just you.
Know, out of this world bold, huge hazards and green complexes that were built with this steam shovel. That is pretty remarkable given the year that it was built. And for the boomerang, for example, that's the there's a boomerang green at at.
Soul Park.
And then the banker is called the banker because Perry Maxwell, when he built that golf course, was a banker in Ardmore, Oklahoma.
Obvious enough. Yeah, all right, so you addressed this briefly earlier, but I want to reinforce it because it is a really common question that we get. Can I come as a single? And also sometimes what's behind that question is would it be weird if I come as a single? Will I feel out of place? And will it just be kind of an odd day socially if I come as a single? And I think the obvious answer to that question having been to these events is no. But
maybe you can talk about that a little bit. What's it like to come as a solo person to these events?
Yeah?
I think this is I highly encourage it. I think this is a great way to do it. I obviously you know, playing with your friends is great too, but I always think that the singles get the most out of it because they meet the most people, right, you know, and and you know, you meet all these people that you might not know that lived in your golf city or near abouts, that that share this common interest. So
I highly encourage singles. Also, a big question that I get is about skill level, Like I'm a fifteen, I'm a twenty two. Is that going to ruin the day?
No?
Absolutely not, Like this is like we're very you know, I think the competition's been described the best as like you know, everybody cares just about just enough and nobody cares too much. And that's like the balance we go for and I think we've achieved is where you have these people where you know, people are trying, they're trying their hardest, but nobody's like throwing clubs over shots.
You shouldn't be really grinding. Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's not that serious. I mean, yeah, people, as you say, people try their best. You're trying to hit good golf shots, but you're not beating yourself up if you're not well. I mean, listen, like in our company, Andy is a really good player, Will is a really good player. These are low handicap scratch or better players. I am more like a ten handicap. I've gone to several of these events.
I've never felt like I'm uncomfortable with being there. I've played with people who are more like twenty to twenty five handicaps at these events. Again, we use a handicap system, so it kind of evens out. This is the magic of golf and its handicap system that you can play on an even playing field with people of different skill levels. But in terms of just the competitive atmosphere, if you're
not a competitive golfer, this is not an uncomfortable environment. Yes, absolutely, Okay, I think that's pretty much all of the questions that we wanted to address. I mean, are there any other faqsh?
That's it?
You know, at some of these, you know, depending on our time constrictions and what's going on beforehand, a lot of them will do, you know, get together the night before, and some of these will, well, this year we'll have some golf before or after and we'll kind of do that as a depending on how many spots we have at different places in the area, it will be kind of a lottery system based off of people that are attending the event.
Yeah, and one thing that we haven't really mentioned specifically so far is the criteria that we use to choose courses.
That's good call.
Yeah, So why do we choose the courses that we choose for these events?
These are places that I go see. They are not based off of a list. They are not based off of where we think we'll get the most people to sign up. These are places that we go to that I find to be extraordinarily fun golf courses to play. They are the courses you know that aren't the high They don't have to be. Some are very high in rankings, but there are places that we feel like our very unique golf courses that expose you to some sort of architecture that you need to see and provide a different
experience than your status quo golf club. So, you know, if you look down our list of courses, you know, Charleston Muni gives you a great example of template hole golf. You know, for people that haven't played a Rainer or McDonald, this is a golf course you can go and see how some of these templates work. You know, the boomerang at Soul Park is a great you know, Gilhans golf course that's in a idealic setting. It's just a wonderful
place that you want to spend time at. Like I just can't think of many courses that I just when I'm out there in the afternoon, I just I just look in basket and like you're sitting in this little mountain canyon playing just this this beauty in this beautiful setting on a really fun golf course. You know the steam shovel, that's that architecture you have to see to believe,
Like you know, photos don't do justice. Like until you see that first grain and the cliff off the left of it that's like twenty five feet that was man made, You're just like, wow, unbelievable. Obviously, the Dunes Club that's where the Kaiser, you know, the whole idea of Bandon Dune started. And with the law students add on, you have a Tom Doak design that's that's really neat Dordic Hills,
where Perry Maxwell's career started. A really important golf course in golf course history and like golf course architecture history, and a very very good and very unique piece of ground like something that you wouldn't expect in.
Oklahoma, freshly restored fresh yeah.
And and freshly restored like one of the biggest I think like one of the most important restorations you know that has happened in recent years is that golf course getting it back from you know where it was a far far cry from what its original design was. Obviously Yale. We have those two days set out. I don't think
we need to talk that much about it. This is a seth rain or Cebe McDonald design was one of the great golf courses, is one of the great golf courses of the world, and it's a great chance to see it before the restoration goes. It happens, and then you'll have a frame of reference of where it was and what it became with the gil Hans working there. Meadow Brook, that is one of the most fun golf course. This is a repeat from last year. We're going back
there just because the golf course is so fun. Andy Staples renovated this what was a Willie Park and had a lot of like a long history of design changes, but renovated it in Willie Park's kind of style. And this golf course, I mean there's so many fun shots out there, so many bowls and neat greens, and that is that's one of the most fun places.
To play golf in America.
Totally delightful. Yeah. I mean, as you're saying, even if you haven't heard of a course that we're holding an event at, check it out a little bit, look into its architectural history and you'll find something special about it. We're not just holding these events at places where we think we're gonna make a lot of money. We're not just going for name recognition. These are special places with designs that are worthy of attention and worthy of some study.
Yeah.
And like the final two that we have on the calendar right now, Essex County Club is the first of the sixth member of the USGA, the first outside of the five founding members. Huge tons of history. Also a place that Donald Ross lived. Really incredible golf course.
This is one of those courses that Ross really worked on a lot. You know, Pinehurst Number two gets a lot of attention for how much Ross was there and made changes and made that course kind of his baby. Essex County is the other course that's like that.
And I think like the most well known ross courses are the championship courses in seminole right. This is I would say probably the most fun Donald Ross course that I've played.
Wow, the and that Prairie Dunes.
Which I think you know is a place that I've gone back to every single year that I've been running this business since I went to it, which was I think the first year I was there was twenty seventeen or twenty eighteen.
Okay, why don't we talk about Lassnia now?
Well, one other thing we you know, we do have another event that's gonna come up. It will be announced, may be announced by the time this podcast comes out shortly after. We are doing a collaborative event with no laying up and that will be in at a golf course that was recently on their Tourist Sauce, which is their YouTube travel series in Michigan. So that it will be a Saturday event and I'm really excited about that. That should be a really fun one also and that that will be in early June.
And speaking of collaborations, we I don't think we mentioned the Ladies teaming up with for the Ladies at Charleston, Muni. This was a recent development that we decided to partner with for the ladies. Abby Libenthal's organization that's doing great work getting women involved in golf.
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a they have a great organization and I think we were we really respect and you know, just I think what they do and with with getting women into golf, and also I think they have also have a you know, a lot of women that are super into golf, that play and uh, and we're excited to partner up with them.
¶ Discussion of Lawsonia Links
There, all right, las Sonia. Maybe we should start by talking about Langford and Moreau, the designers, the original designers of Lasnia Links. Not everybody knows about Langford and Moreau. Certainly they've become more visible among Golden Age architects over the past few years because of the work that you've done in large part, I think.
A lot of other people too, of course.
Yeah, but you've been researching Langford and Morew and thinking about Langford and Morew for a few years now. Give people the rundown of who these architects are and what their style was.
Yeah, they worked mostly in the Midwest.
They kind of came to the height of their powers and you'd really wonder what would have happened if the Great Depression didn't happen, because when they were hitting their stride was really the late Golden Age, and they're an evolution of like, you know, the gold This is one of the things that was the saddest thing with you know, what happened to golf architecture is you had the Great Depression in the World War Two, which kind of halted the evolution of architecture in America and for golf and
probably building architecture as well. But these architects are I think if you put them on a tree, they kind of evolved from Rainer and McDonald's. You know. If I've seen some Langford stuff before he worked with Moreau and it's pretty subdued, and then the pair when they got together, I think, I I you know, and I'm not a historian, so I'm not always the best with little details. But Moreau was the guy that built the really wild stuff, and lows Sonia is I would say probably the best kept.
That and Culver are the two best kept length for Moreaus in terms of like if you want to go see what their architecture was about, that's where you go see. So you're gonna see really big, bold features they they worked on a lot of great land. Lawsonia is a terrific piece of ground. But what they did was they built, which is different than say a Perry Maxwell. And they might have had beef. I kind of think that Perry Maxwell and Length for Moreau.
Perry Maxwell might have sub tweeted them a couple of times.
Oh totally did.
It's actually on is like the statue that leads up to his gravesite at Dornic Hills is like the quote that he's subtweeting Lank for Moreau. And this is not this is not your Alistair Mackenzie Maxwell, like find it
in the ground. This was Golden Age maximalism. And I think Golden Age maximalism is kind of what the architecture we have today, where they let the natural land provide most of the theatrics, but then they built features at the green and at bunkers, and these are big, big features, like these are features that like you just are like wow, I can't believe they built that in nineteen thirty. For example, the seventh hole is this famous part three at Lawsonia.
It's called the box car hole. It is a you know, hit it or else type par three it's about a one hundred and sixty yard shot and the green is built allegedly on top of a box car that you would see like a freight train car. And it's just like a vertical wall in front of the green that's about twenty feet up, you know, just to give you an idea, and it's kind of banked into this slope. So it's just lows Sonia is an amazing place. It
is a It's an important place for me. It's one of the you know, if you said in the Midwest, like best value in terms of what you get architecturally and for the cost, lows Sonia is at the top of any place in probably the entire country. I think it is a you could make a very good argument that it's the best golf course in all of Wisconsin.
And before somebody says, oh, well, what about Milwaukee Country Club, Sand Valley or Whistling Straits, Like I think that, you know, it's very clearly on the same tier.
I would put it above Whistling Streets.
It's not on the ocean, but in terms of just golf, it is spectacular in a place that you need to see. So Lasnia, you know, one of the things. That's a shame with lang for Moreau is a lot of their designs haven't been well kept. You know, a lot of them were destroyed. A lot of them, you know, they're really they aren't the easiest to maintain.
So in the there's a lot of local courses that Langford Moureau did too, right. They were you know, there's a lot of similarities with what Perry Maxwell did in his region. Langford and Moreau did some similar stuff in the Midwest where they were kind of going around in the thirties in the depression building these small courses for towns, and a lot of those maybe haven't been super well maintained.
Yeah, But like one of the cool things is like you can go see some of these courses that and they're just like sitting there. They haven't been messed with because they're a small town in Indiana or a small town in Wisconsin, and the you know, the golf course has never had money to mess it up, so you know they' there's small greens and you know, the bunkers aren't you know, filled in. But like you can go
see these places. We talked about Kanka Key Elks on the Restoration podcast, like I think, like the thing anybody that goes and sees Los Sonia, you you realize, God, these guys were extraordinarily great, you know, at at what
they did. And you know, I think the thing that I take away is like you play, you see Las Sonia, which you know, I think we need to say is like it's one of the best cup but it's still got probably about thirty percent of the way to go to where it would be fully maxed out in terms
of what it is. That's how how good it is for you know, being kind of not fully restored, but it's a you play it for less than one hundred bucks and it's uh really busy, so it's hard to do restoration work in Craig Haultam and his team has been doing some small stuff every year and it keeps getting better. So you know, that's that's that's the thing. Like you can there's a length from a road trail and what I've I've got all the footage.
We've wanted to do a video about it.
We've been talking about this for three years.
And so you know, you could play five or six length from a rose from Indiana up through Illinois up through Wisconsin. You know, for about two hundred and twenty five bucks. Now, like law Sonia is gonna be the crown jewel of that. So laws Sonia, you know, one of the things. The ground's really great. The back nine is what kind of makes everybody's jaw drop. You turn
the corner on the tenth hole. The tenth hole is this long part three and you when you turn the corner, you just it opens up to this kind of like golf land. It's just a wide open scape. It's got a big roll through it, but there's just golf holes everywhere. It's one of the neatest kind of low key reveals that doesn't include an ocean in the world of golf. The back nine spectacular, but as good as it is,
the front nine might be better. It kind of weaves around a different side of the property and it has just incredible holes too. So I it is a in terms of public golf. I think it's it's one of the ten to fifteen best public golf courses in America.
So the word that everybody uses when they go to Las Sonia is bold boldness. It's become kind of a catchphrase. And so I wonder if there's anything else that you could say about loss Sonia that you think makes it special beyond just the boldness of the shaping. You know, that's something that anybody would notice. So what else about the course is great?
I think the thing when you really look at lang from a Rose, greens like they're the bold, the big like. So when people are saying bold, it's the big features. So you just see these greens that are pushed up.
It's like the external shaping on the greens offense. Yeah, like.
These bunkers, Yeah, they're huge.
But what makes Lang from a roaw greens are the internal contours, the elegance of these beautiful greens that they build that have these little waves and different slopes inside. One of the things we do that I didn't mention at the start is we cut different cups for morning and afternoon. And it's really fun at Lawsonia to set cups,
so we do that. It's very intentional. We put pins in places that we want to so you really understand the green because you see at one spot in the morning, you see it in a different spot in the afternoon. It's gonna be wildly different and you're gonna play different teas too. So the golf course is really going to play completely different. But at Lastonia, like you know, there are perfect examples, like the leveth hole, which is a
great part five. You know, if that pins over on the right, you have this really bold, huge contour that you have to You don't want to go right of it. You know, it's a huge slope and you're dead if you're right of it. But if the pin's over on the left, you think, oh, this is so much easier. But anything right like, it's so hard to keep it on.
And there's just like little knobs and on the left side of the green that kind of like make these putts a little bit more challenging just than just your standard downhiller.
So how did you come upon Lawsonia Because for a while it was like a pretty well kept secret that this was a great course. I mean, I think it was twenty fourteen when Ron Force and Jim Nagel came in and did some work on the course and maybe you know, pushed it forward quite a bit from what it was. But did you see the course before that?
Yeah, it was a course I had played as a kid, you know, being in the Midwest, Like I had gone up there with a buddy one time, like it was on just like a Wisconsin you know, we just went up there and played I'd seen That's how I had seen Eagle Springs that way too, which is another really neat course that's like an hour and a half away. This a nine holeer And it.
Was about that one on our website and also done a podcast episode about it.
And when we when we started, you know, when I started the fried Egg, it was just a place that I knew I needed to get to and do something. And you know, it was something somewhere that hadn't nobody ever shot it with a drone, which I think like shows some of the magnificence of it. And that's I think where like the the widespread, like you show pictures of the place and it's just you people look at it.
It's like I had need to go see that place. So that's you know, it was just a place.
That I had seen as a kid and knew I needed to get back and do something on it. And uh, and the same goes for like Eagle Springs too.
Do you remember being stunned by it when you saw it? You know through your you know, adult eyes, you've seen it as a kid.
Do you ever go That was.
Before the they had taken down all the trees on the back nine, and you know the front nine Spectacus. I think the more I play it, the more I like the front nine. But the back nine it's just it's just such an unbelievable It's really one of my favorite parts of the event is when I make the turn back there and you see all the people out there, because it's just you see, it's like a very we talk about like expansive properties that are very intimate, and
that's what that is. Like You're always close to people, you see people, you can talk to them and everything, and there's just greens gathered close to it, like you know, you have the tenth Green, the thirteenth Green, and the fourteenth Green also really close proximity on this ridge, but then also you have the eleventh and fifteenth tee there as well.
It's just it's a really special place.
And I think on the you know, we had done a trip to Sam Valley and we've hit it on the way back from Sand Valley and it was a immediately I do I need to host people? That was like that's always the place that I take people do if they if they're come if they're in Chicago and have a day and they say, I've got a day to go play golf, Like that's the place I take too, And it's a three hour drive, but it's so worth it.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a reliable one where people play it for the first time and they're like, wow, you know that.
Yeah, it's you got to see Lasonia like whether like whether you're a public golfer or private golfer, Like Lasnia if it was in Chicago would be right there with Chicago golf shoretakers and Old Elm as the best course in Chicago.
Yeah, you know, I always dream about like this is the thing.
It's like, this is where affordable public golf like is a It's just a really interesting question is like would it be better if it was fully restored and two hundred and fifty dollars a person or is it better seventy percent of what it could be and one hundred dollars per person?
Yeah, I mean, I guess the idealist in me says that you don't have to necessarily have that trade off, right you could, Yeah, you could have the fully restored thing.
Hard, it's hard because like you have to kind of shut down and yeah, it's like you don't have dues, you don't have the dues paying.
It's just it's hard.
It's a harder proposition, and then you could do it the way they've been doing it is just small little things every year.
Yeah, well, I think that that's the thing to highlight though, is that they have done work on the course to make it better and have made it substantially better and have still maintained in a pretty affordable rate. I mean for a getaway place where you can where you can kind of get away from the city go play a day of golf, this is an affordable option for that area, and they've made the course better in the past ten years. You know, we run into these discussions all the time.
That recently we had a discussion with some folks from Cleveland about Sleepy Hollow and Manikiki there. These are really really good municipal courses that could be a lot better if they just did a little bit. And the concern that we heard, well, first of all, a lot of Clevelanders were saying, yeah, these courses could use some work. There were though, who were saying, we can't do this you know, we've got to maintain affordability at these facilities.
They're really good, right now, let's just leave them alone. No, you can do little things each year that make the golf course better. You don't have to shut down necessarily, you don't have to spend millions and millions of dollars. But there are some simple things that just make all the difference in the world. And I think that Lawsnia is an example of that.
Yeah, I mean it's wonderful. Every year they do a little extra, a little something new, and it's, you know, one of my favorite places to go every year.
All right, So let's get to some discussions of the other courses where sign ups are opening. So I've actually checked in with Will Knights. We should give a shout out to Will Knights because he is a major force behind making these events run smoothly. He does a ton of work behind the scenes, and so thank you Will. I just asked him on like, when are we opening sign ups for Dornic Hills and he says February seventh, so that one is not among the sign ups that
are opening on January third. So coming up here for the rest of the episode, we have a clip of Troy Miller talking about Charleston Muni and Troy Miller is the Charleston based architect who did the recent work on Charleston Muni kind of Rayner inspired shaping and whole concepts, and he tells the story of that, and then we have a clip of me and you Andy talking about Soul Park. These were both episodes that we released earlier
this year. You might might have caught them at the time, and so that's what's coming up for the rest of this episode.
¶ Interview with Troy Miller about Charleston Muni
And so really the idea Charleston Municipal was being a nineteen twenty nine golf course being built at the same time as Jamen's Hall and the country club, and being able to see if you squint it a little bit, you could see some of those classic features of a rain Or design. And so it really kind of fell to the bottom line of saying, let's really enhance this and give an experience that the general public just doesn't have otherwise when it comes to this style of architecture.
And so it was something that I felt like if we did and we did it right, and we really enhance the features that you would see on a rain Or McDonald golf course, it would bring people that were visiting the city to experience golf in the city. And we're talking five minutes from downtown Charleston, and so this
does really open up that opportunity. And what that does even more so is it allows the general public of the locals to continue to have a municipal golf course that they can be very proud of that they can play for a very low rate and be subsidized by guest play at a slightly higher rate, which is still
below market for a public daily fee in Charleston. And that substance, he should allow the golf course to stay in the kind of shape it needs to stay in and should allow for it to continue to really get enhanced.
Yeah, with your project, I think obviously so many people go to their local muni whether you know, there's so many in urban areas, and they dream about the ability to be able to reimagine the golf course and update it and give it, put a little you know, TLC into it. Talk about the process of going through that and getting it through the city. Where did it start, how did it come about, and how did it get to where it is today with the finished product?
Sure, Yeah, so one of the things that it definitely takes is is a lot of passion from the people involved, from the people in leadership, And dating back to really twenty fifteen, was the first conversation that I had with the mayor who basically said, hey, I want to do something about Charleston Muni. And I said, okay, well, let
me take a look at this. And I went at that point and started drawing conceptual plans and came back not only with a conceptual plan but also a pro forma as to why it made sense for the city and how it was going to create a return for the city. And so at that point we came back and decided to go ahead and put together a five ZHO one C three of the friends of the Muni that would be part of that charitable arm that would
gain us some of that fundraising arm. So the way that the project was originally intended was to basically have two thirds of the money come from the city and a third of the money come privately raised, and we've pretty much achieved that throughout the course of the last few years. The funding mechanism took several years because it had to go through a bond referendum, that was part
of another recreation bond. And then the process itself is heavily scrutinized because it's a city project that has to go through city capital projects, and so the process is not that of a typical private development, and so it does take some effort and it takes some time. But I think if you get the right people involved, and really it's about the passion. And there were so many people in Charleston that just loved that place. And my
family history dates back to the thirties there. My grandfather caddied there, My father's first jobbing golf was there in the late sixties, his first job as a professional, and so there were so many people along the way that just said, we care deeply about it, how can we help, how can we make this happen. Then it wasn't just monetarily, but it was also some political pressure that really got the project going.
With regards to the pro forma creating, you know, showing the value, because I think this is where so many people like, how did you go about presenting the case that hey, if we do this, you know, this is going to go from something that loses money for the city to something that's going to be something that brings in revenue for the city.
Yeah, And the biggest thing there is really looking at what is the market rate for a non resident to come play golf, and at the top top end of that, when it comes to municipal golf courses, you've got place like Tory Pines and Bethpage Black And while we're never trying to achieve those levels, what it showed us was, hey, we've got market rate to come play golf as a visitor to Charleston. We've got a lot of room for
growth there. And so that was really the biggest change in the revenue line of being able to say, hey, we can go achieve ten thousand rounds. We do sixty thousand rounds a year on MUNI and so if ten thousand of those were out of town play at a slightly higher rate, all of a sudden, that's going to subsidize this thing, allow us to spend the money we need to from a maintenance perspective to keep it up and not create any kind of problems in terms of accessibility for all of the local residents.
And I think this is where this project's a little bit different than a lot of product you see munis go down this road where they put money into their golf course, but oftentimes it's money where they're putting a lot of money in, but they aren't getting a drastically different product from what they had. How did you play the architecture into this? And I imagine, you know, just thinking common sensely that had a lot to do to say,
this is how we attract money. Yes, you know, how we attract out of town money is with this right.
Yes, absolutely, I think that the whole idea, and we've taught a lot. Charleston is a very historic town and we've got a role to play in the history of the history of America and the history of golf and the history of the Golden Age and Rayner McDonald's style architecture. What Rainer did in this town, you know, is such a great, great example of his work and exactly how and it's why it fits so well in the low country, the ability to really enhance the features of the golf
course on relatively flat property. And so the idea when it was pitched was really about listen, we're a historic town, We're a sophisticated town. We deserve a historic, sophisticated golf
course to call our own. And so when we really dug down into it and started talking about the history of Rayner and the experience in the low Country, it was an easy pitch to get people behind the idea of bringing these template holes to the table and really trying to create that experiences for the public daily fee player.
Yeah, and I think obviously they're getting a drastically different experience than what they had. Talk about how much of the how much new stuff is out there, what are the biggest, let's say, defining characteristics of beauty today versus what was Yeah.
Sure, So the Greens themselves were all completely rebuilt and are roughly about fifty percent bigger, fifty to sixty percent bigger than they were before, much bolder contouring and essentially, and like I said, because that golf course was built in the twenties and we had that, you know, we had that influence. It wasn't a rainer, as many people
might have said over the course of the years. But in nineteen twenty nine, a lot of the same laborers that built the country Club and built Yaman's Hall were going there. And these were the only two examples of golf in Charleston. So you know, they'd go across town, take a look and say, okay, let's go build that. And it was a bad game of telephone is what it became. But you still got a lot of the
same features. And so there was a lot of those big rectangular pads that were there that we were able to take these you know, satellite dish greens that had just atrophied over the years and expand them back out into those corners and then accelerate just by sharpening the edges a little bit, elevating really no more than six inches to a foot in most green complexes, but creating
some bolder contours. And one of the great things about working on a municipal golf course where you know that the limits are never going to be pushed from terms of green speed, was the freedom of being able to create some bold contouring in the greens. I can tell you, you know, opening day, those greens were running nine and a half and I was listening to people walk off that golf course saying, they can't keep these greens at twelve like this, it's just going to be too much.
And so it's really good to create some perceived green speed rather than actual green speed. Because it takes a lot of pressure off of your maintenance, you know, in terms of the architecture. And I lost my train of thought. Andy, tell me what was your question?
Can't remember either.
You know, I don't even remember, but you know what you know.
So let's you talked about the defining features.
They're defining features. So let me say first, so there's there's twelve template holes out there. There's eleven at the Country Club of Charleston, and then there's thirteen at Yamon's Hall. And of those templates, I think the ones that will stand out the most of people, and where the biggest physical change to the property came was the corner of
the golf course. That's eleven, twelve, thirteen and fourteen. At that point you kind of leave kind of the parkland style of the golf course, crossed the road and head down towards the river into something that feels much more lynxy, and all of a sudden, now you've got your playing
redan cape, road and short in that order. And so I think having that corner of the golf course with those very recognizable template holes and the views that were created simply by we we eliminated about two and a half acres of new growth forests that was kind of blocking the view of the river, and in its place we dug a rether large lake that's in between golf holes, primarily for storm water and also to create generate the material to elevate some of these holes that were sitting
in the floodplain. So there was a lot of functionality to what we did, and then the architecture just became the fun part.
Yeah, and obviously talk about the functionality. I think I visited it was probably a perfect day to visit because I saw, you know, all of all of the existing courses and original courses issues, and I think that's beyond you know, the increase in design. Talk about just the functional design things that you did to make it a better golf course day and day.
Sure, so drainage obviously being in a low country and being at a very low elevation as Immuni is, you know, the biggest thing that we did was create better drainage and elevated some of those holes that were along the flood in the floodplain along the river. Some holes were elevated as much as five to seven feet from where they were before, others just six to twelve inches is
all it really took. But you mentioned, you know, you came on a day when we had a king tide, which is basically a seven and a half or eight foot tide, And I can remember being out there days and watching the tide come in across the fifteenth fairway and literally reach the far end of the fairway and just thinking, my god, how are we going to do this?
And the way we were able to do it was actually by creating digging out a pond, creating a better dyke system that had been there, and just elevating that to kind of combat what is these rising tide levels that we're seeing in the low country and all of a sudden, now what we have as a firm and fast golf course that should stay that way, that's got the appropriate drainage. And a big thing in Charleston too, is we talk about living with water because you ain't
gonna get rid of it. We're we're at sea level and it's not going anywhere. And so the biggest part of it was moving the water out of the areas of play, getting it off to the edges, into ditches, into new ponds, things that didn't come into play and didn't become more penal in terms of the design and the way the golf course plays, but functionality wise, provide a place for the water to get off to so that you can keep those fairways in those center lines firm.
Yeah. I think anybody that's worked or has intimate knowledge about, you know, working in a municipal project or just any project in general, worst of the biggest challenges of the project over the course of the of the year and a half.
You know.
I think that certainly working in a municipal setting, in a government setting, there there's always there's always a maybe not the sense of urgency that you know that you need to have as a golf course builder and as a golf course architect, knowing, hey that the clock's ticking, we got to grow in to hit. I can't wait for your seventh person to sign off on this so that I can get pipe in the ground, so that
I can plant grass. Trying to educate people on that perspective and kind of with that that mentality is a tough thing, and so I think that's part of the reason why a lot of these municipal projects don't get done in this kind of unique manner where true was a city led project. I think the vast majority of what we've seen with these municipal projects around the country recently have been the takeovers where you get a foundation that comes in and says, hey, we're going to take it.
We're just gonna lease it from you. You guys are completely hands off. And honestly, I'm kind of proud of the fact that that's not one of these. I think that the fact that the city is going to still run it, that it is still the city is wholly in, one hundred percent, and it's something for them to be proud of. We have got a great park system in the city of Charleston, and this should be the crowning
jewel of that. And so, you know, I'm actually quite pleased that we didn't have to go to the level of privatizing to get action.
Do you think also with that there's an enhanced sense of pride, not just with you know, the city as a whole, all the way down through the maintenance steam that worked on the project, Like, do you think that is going to lead to where we maybe see less atrophy you know on the golf course in the future. You know what that sad tale that so many municipalities
see is where green shrink fairway shrink. Do you think because you know the city went through it with you and your team, that you'll see a longer lasting product than typically.
I sure hope. So I think that there's so many people who care deeply about it, and a lot of those people are the people who are working there and that have been there for decades in some cases, And so I really do think that'll be the case in the community involvement on this project as well. I mean, we had volunteer days, We had volunteers planting the landscaping on that on a beautiful November day, And to hear guys now going out there and playing and say, hey,
I planted that dogwood. You know, I think that there is a sense of pride that comes with it that I hope will translate into better course care, that will translate into long term conditioning and a sense of pride that I hope everybody in Charleston can happen.
And I guess you know, the way we should start
¶ Discussion of Soule Park
is is just at the beginning with the boomerang with soul Park golf course. We haven't talked about soul Park on the podcast yet I don't.
Think right, it's such a wonderful place. I yeah, I had like all this anxiety. You know, you see a place one time and you've been there so many times, you grew up playing there, but you see a place and I had the same feeling about Losnia, you know, before we hosted the steam shovel its like you get this anxiety. It's like, well, I really love the place, but like, is everybody else really going to love the place?
You know when you're when you hosted an event and you get I got back there immediately, I was like, oh, yeah, this place is so good. It is such a fun place. It's just unbelievable setting there in Ojai, California and the mountains. I don't want to tell too many people about Hi because you know, I want to be a future resident of Ohi, so I don't need everybody driving up real estate prices there.
But I'm pretty sure the real estate prices have already gotten out of control there.
But Soul Park is so cool.
You have much more experience with it the v you grew up in the general area. You've played the golf course before Gilhan's renovated it in the early two thousands. Tell us a little bit about the transformation.
Yeah, sure, So Soul Park was built in nineteen sixty two by William F.
Bell.
Right, so you know Southern California golf course architecture one oh one is distinguishing between the two Bells.
Yeah what F stand for? Do you know what the F stand?
I don't actually even know. Maybe Francis, probably Francis. I really have no idea. Maybe Frederick. But William F. Bell is the son of William P.
Bell.
William P. Bell is often referred to as Billy Bell Senior and Billy Bell Senior worked with George Thomas on a number of really well known Southern California golf courses. In fact, the George Thomas Southern California golf courses that you've heard of, Riviera, lacc North, Billy Bell William P. Bell worked on those as well and was kind of the master bunker shaper.
I also believe that Billy Bell William P. Bell was an integral in aw tilling House design of San Francisco Golf Club. So another place with that is lauded for their bunkers.
And if you have experience at Billy Bell designs in southern California. You go to San Francisco and you're like, hey, man, these don't look like tilling House bunkers. These look like, you know, sort of classic California Billy Bell bunkers. In any case, you know, Billy Bell's a really well regarded regional architect. William F. Bell is his son. And you know, to be honest, you know, I've played a lot of William F. Bell courses. They're all over southern California. Not
all of them are super remarked. I think he was a good router of golf courses, but I'm not going to make any great claims about his abilities as a strategic architect. But in any case, he designed Soul Park Golf Course as a municipal course for Vintura County in Ohi, California in nineteen sixty two, and that was the first version of the course that I played. I played it for the first time in the nineties. My dad and
I played it a bunch. Even then, I thought this was a pretty special place just because of its location, a beautiful valley in Ohi, and in the mornings and evenings there's just really an indescribable kind of peaceful loveliness to being in that valley. Well. In any case, soul Park got ravaged by a flood in two thousand and five. Like much of the Central Coast, it really got nailed by this flood. Significant parts of the golf course were destroyed. It was in limbo for a little bit. There was
some doubt as to whether the course would serve. But the right kind of manager of a renovation came along and Craig Price, who had.
Been also Rustic Canyon.
Yeah, yeah, you know, he decided to sort of take over the lease for a time and he headed up the renovation. And who did he call but Gil Hanson Jim Wagner who had designed Rustic Canyon alongside Jeff Shackelford a few years before. And Gil Hanson Jim Wagner were well known as good architects at the time, but they didn't have nearly the stature that they have now. Right this is pre Olympic Course, pre a.
Lot of the big name restoration work that you know now they're known for as much, if not more than their original designs, which they have a number of outstanding riginal designs.
Yeah, So they came in and they did a renovation of Seul Park really more or less kept the same routing, but in every other sense transformed the course. And they did their work for about three point two million dollars.
So that's an important number to keep in mind for discussion later in this podcast about.
We're going to quote some higher numbers for Tory Pines. But you know, even after that renovation, it struggled for a while. You know, it had a series of managers
who maybe didn't prioritize the golf course. But in twenty seventeen, Keith Brown came in took over the lease of the golf course, and really ever since then, Saul Park has been ascending and visiting the course now during our event and seeing the club, the members of the club, many of whom were at our event, how much they love the place, how good of a time they have there. The culture of that course is so lively now and it's just wonderful to see.
I think it starts with the staff too, and I think that's one of the things, is like it's such a welcoming, open place where you know, they have all types of golfers. You can bring your dog out there. Their dog friendly and really it's such a diversion from what I guess you could kind of put this in the municipal golf buckets, but it's a lease. Keith Brown manages it on a lease from the city, from the county, from the county, so it's you know, quasi municipal golf.
But like it's such a diversion from what you see at so many other municipal facilities that are very unwelcoming, like you try and bring your dog out there, or you try, and you know, they just look for ways to turn golfers away almost and you know that's really most of the municipal golf around me is that way. It's just unbelievable how hard some places make it for you to go out and enjoy the day and enjoy
the golf course. And I think that's the thing that they've done so well, is they make it so easy for people to enjoy their time there, right.
Yeah, And that's something that's been very intentional on the part of Keith Brown. When he came in there, the vibe of the course was more like, here are a set of rules. Make sure you follow these rules. There are signs up everywhere that said, you know, youve got address a certain way. Don't go here, don't go there. And Keith was really you know, he knew what he was doing in stripping a lot of that away, and he says like, I don't care if you come out and play in flip flops. I don't care.
Well, the biggest, the biggest evidence is how the people that play the golf course has changed and how Yeah, they have a large contingent of people that drive an hour and a half from Los Angeles up there to play golf.
Like it's a younger crowd too, yeah, right that for decades that course has been dominated by the Senior Men's Club and you know, no shade on the Senior Men's Club, but that has been shaken up recently and there is a younger crowd out there right now.
And I think this is it's just a beyond just the golf course, like, and we haven't even talked about the design of the course and what that's done. This is just strictly a culture thing in a attitude towards providing a welcoming atmosphere that's done so much of the legwork on this and that's where you know, so many facilities need to look at themselves in the mirror and say,
is golf the issue or are we the issue? And I think this is a facility that proves like there's plenty of golfers in you know, they're drawing from an hour and a half away. You know, there's plenty of golfers within your most cases metro area that you can make this work if you provide a great place to
hang out. That's really what it is. Is like, if I'm going to spend five hours somewhere, there aren't many places public or private that I'd rather spend five hours at than Seoul Park with those mountains and just the general attitude at the golf course of being so laid back and welcoming.
And the food and the drink and the way the manner in which it's provided. You know, you mentioned the staff earlier. Keith has really hired some great people and they contribute to the culture of the place as well. But there is a reason that people are driving an hour and a half to come up to this golf course. And it's not just because there's a cool social vibe there.
It is because this is a fantastic golf course. What were the things that kind of struck you on the second visit to the course that maybe you didn't notice the first time through the thing.
The greens are just so fantastic the property in general, Like what's amazing about is the setting around the mountains. I don't think there's too much you know, movement. There's no wild movement like you might see it, say, Lawsonia's got some great movement and great greens, but this place just has some really creative greens. And just how how dynamic the holes are in the in the case of when you change the pin, how much the ideal place
is to be shift. You know, you're able to put it over a bunker with a with a hard slope away and you know, I myself hit it into a place where you know I'm looking at It was the second hole we had the pin kind of up front left. It's over a bunker with a very severe slope on the back side of the bunker and everything in the green running way. Of course, I hit it just into the left rough off the tee, and I remembered I was sitting there with a wedge thinking to myself, God,
I don't know if I can get this close. I hit a great great shot, and I ended up like eighteen feet away, yeah, and I was like that that's about as probably close as I could get. But if I had taken on the bunkers gone up the right, I would have had a chance to hit it really close because everything would have been working for me. And I think that's the probably the most memorable aspect of Seoul Park is just how the greens allow it to be so dynamic day to day.
You almost can't believe how wild some of these greens are. Oh yeah, you just almost can't believe that these existed a municipal course, and just the fact that they've survived since two thousand and five, when there have been members of that course who have objected to certain elements of Hansen Wagner's renovation. You know, I'm just really grateful that those greens are still there.
You can set that golf course up so tough because of the greens, and then you can also because of the greens, you can set it up so easy. There's great repelling pins and gathering pins on almost every green exactly.
So yeah, that's that's Soule Park. I would say that, like, the Soul Park story is not over yet. You know, I would like to see not too many changes to that golf course. I'd like to see some of the elements that were there in two thousand and five when Hanson Wagner redid the course to be brought back. And you know, there are just a few subtleties that have been lost since then, nothing major, And I'd really like
to see not too many more trees add it. Yeah, we did see some new tree plantings out there, and I have to just say that my opinion is that it's fine in terms of trees as it is. There are some beautiful specimen trees out there, some beautiful, you know, distinctive Southern California species. The holes don't need to be framed anymore than they currently are. There doesn't need to be much tree removal. But by the same token, I don't think there needs to be any more tree addition.
You know, there's much better views across the golf course now than there were in the nineteen nineties, and that's one of the great things about the current version of the courses that you can really see across several holes at a time, and that's part of what makes being in that valley so inspiring. More trees would limit that visibility across the whole corridors, and I really hope that we don't see too many more trees.
At it there.
The mountains are the start. You want to do everything to showcase the tupe of mountains. It's such an unbelievable setting for a golf course.
Yeah. Yeah, So we had a great event there. It was really fun.
Talking about next year already there'll be a second boomerang. So yes, it was awesome, thanks to everybody that came out, and uh it was.
It was such a fun time.