I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a fried egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Friday Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast. I'm your host, Andy Johnson, and today we're joined by sports psychologist doctor Greg Carton.
Greg. Thanks for coming on.
Yeah, Andy, thanks for having me. Looking forward to speaking and uh podcast was looking forward to being it.
Yeah, for sure, I so Greg. I met out at the Players Championship. Greg works with a handful of guys on the PGA Tour, Web Tour, Latin America and Canadian Tour. Greg, I'd love to hear how you got into kind of sports psychology and golf specifically.
Sure. Yeah, no, it started at a relatively young age. I played soccer and lacrosse through college. Also played competitive golf, but not not in school, you know, in the summers and amateur events, and was always fascinated by the difference mindset between what was like to compete in the team environment as opposed to when you're out there all by yourself. So I read a lot of stuff about Bob Rotella and some other sports psychologies at the time, get really interested.
Went back after I graduated undergrad took a few years off, and then went back to get my master's in sports I like, and kept going, got my doctorate and started my own practice, and that's that's how it sort of began. I worked with a young professional golfer right when I opened my private practice, and he had some success and some you know, word of mouth, got a few more clients, and now I'm here and I work. I'd say ninety
five percent of my clients are now all golfers. And selfishly, I enjoyed that too, because I really enjoyed the sport, and I think the stuff I believe in really helps us when it comes to golf as opposed to maybe some other sports.
Yeah, I mean, I think every golfer who's ever tried to play in tournament golf, you realize like you're just a head case, you know, and yeah, pretty much you look around, and you know, I always look around and I look at like the you know, players that are a little bit better than me, I'm like, what are what are they thinking about that I'm not thinking about because I'm thinking about just all kinds of bad stuff.
But I'm kind of I'm curious, like, how do you how's your schedule work?
Do you do you spend a lot of time on the road or are you primarily.
Just you know, do you have phone calls?
How?
How does it work when you're working with players?
Yeah? No, I mean the beauty of technology, know is you don't need to to meet with people face to face necessarily, whether skypeer faith time is always good. So I have clients from you know, all over the country. I do. I do make it obviously priority though, to spend as much time as I can with people persons, so to get out in the road. I'll spend time
at events, usually Sunday through Wednesday or Thursday. But I also have quite a few clients you know back here at home who you know, juniors, and some high school kids and college kids, and some you know, amateur players around the area that I meet with in person in my office as well. So it's it's a very sort of group. I have some clients who are beginning, you know, twenty five handicappers and all the way to professionals who have won major events. So, and you just mentioned something
pretty interesting before this. You're always wondered what other people are thinking, like guys that play at the highest level. And I always start my three hawks with the point that you know, if you took thirty of the top players in the world and thirty beginners and then thirty maybe decent amateurs and had them all right one question or one thing they were concerned with on a piece of one on a note card and handed men and you read, you wouldn't know who they were coming from.
Everyone in that respect as the same issues as far as what they're thinking about and what they're worried about and their concerns and how they don't get in their own way. So we're all similar when it comes to that, which I thought is always pretty interesting.
M So, so I'm curious, like, you know, what is the most common, you know, kind of thing that you work with with golfers, Like, what's the first thing that usually jumps out when you get a new patient.
We'll say, since we're all sick, yeah, right, right.
Right, there's I guess the bottom line is a lot of our struggles on the course come from one thing, and that's fear, right, fear of you know, what we're going to shoot, or fear of what our parents are going to say to us after, or a fear of how I'm going to feel if I blow the lead or if I you know, everyone knows I'm supposed to play well and they don't what I'm gonna have to say. So I think, when you boil it all down, a lot of our struggles on the course come from the
avoidance of fear. That's number one, and number two is and as a golf I'm sure you're familiar with the stew we all And like you said before, I wonder people are always wondering people, you know, be more like that guy? Why can't I think more like them? Or
swing like them? Always comparing ourselves to others. So being a little bit unfair to ourselves and a little bit mean to ourselves as far as how we speak to ourselves is probably the other major thing that I end up talking with people about, because it's just not part of competitive athletic culture to treat ourselves nicely. We always think that to motivate ourselves, we need to be mean to ourselves or bearate ourselves, and we're finding more and
more now. Rooster shows that if you can support yourself, you're gonna operate from a much safer place and usually results will will be better.
You know, it's interesting.
I made a New Year's resolution this year that I was never going to tell myself on the golf course that I sucked.
Right that go.
I So it's only happened one time, and I immediately was like, why did I just do that? But like, amazingly, like I've gotten off to some terrible starts and tournaments, and like by not telling myself I sucked, Like I've ended up shooting like really good scores for being in positions that I've been, Whereas, like you know, in years past, I think I would have just kept playing worse and worse.
Yeah, that's that's a fantastic insight. And sometimes, first of all, it's a skill that we can develop, this idea of self compassion, because it's, like I said before, something we naturally do. When I work with juniors, we'll get a chance to get out on the course from the putting green, I'll stand next to them and have them roll a few pots short pots, and if they miss one, out sort of get their face little and say, whoa, you're a pretty bad hutter. Huh, I can't believe you missed
that one. And they'll sort of look at me funny, and they'll go again, and we'll go through the same drill, and then I'll ask them, hey, does sound familiar, like I don't really mean that, but I bet you've heard that before, and they say, oh, yeah, that's how I talk to myself, right, So it seems odd when you can play it out that way, that that's how we
would speak to ourselves. So the drill almost or the skill that you can develop is this idea of, hey, can you substitute maybe the way or yourself for say your best friend, someone's struggling with the same stuff, and now how would you support that, what language would you use? And can you start to incorporate that for yourself? And that's how you begin that process of developing some self compassion.
It's interesting.
It's kind of like I'm a big basketball fan and I think you know, Bill Simmons always talks about guys that are like irrational confidence guys that will come down.
The floor and just just fire or three.
From anywhere, and they expected to go in even though they aren't great shooters. And I feel like if you want to be a really great golfer, you almost have to have an irrational self sense of self confidence.
That's a great way to put it right, or no fear of what's going to happen if you miss. And I think you can sort of lump that into those guys as well, Right, they're not concerned with a result as much or the fear of missing, because they know that they have such high level of confidence that they're going to be able to support themselves regardless of if
they make it or miss it. And if you can put that right, if you can incorporate that to golf, think about how much better or how much freer you could swing knowing that you had no fear where the ball was going to end up. Mm hmm.
It's I mean, I think that has to do a lot with confidence and and everything, because like you have to have confidence in your short game because like you know, if if.
You miss shots in the wrong spots, you.
And that's where you know, getting a ball to a flag that might have a bunker by it is is tough. I mean, so what do you see kind of you know, you've got players across the spectrum. You know, what's the difference between the Web guy to the to the PGA tour guy to the Latin America or Canadian tour guy.
Yeah, I think there is such a fine line, right, I mean, as far as physical skill is concerned, I think you could substitute the fields of all those events each week and you'd probably be seeing the same type of scoring. But what separates the guys I think that reached the next level or win events regardless of where it is, are the guys and that they accept the fact that they're going to have all these crazy thoughts
that you and I have. They're going to be nervous, they're going to be anxious, and instead of fighting themselves, they've come to this understanding that I can still play
at a high level regardless of what I'm thinking. And that's what I've found the most uh with guys that I've worked with and studying golfers, this idea that the guys that play the best when they matter as the most are the guys that understand that they're thinking is not going to get in the way because whatever it is they think it's going to be normal and not,
they're not going to feel a control. But once they can observe the thoughts they have that they're not real, they can move on to whatever it is they're doing without fighting themselves. And in the end, that's how you develop the most freedom.
Yeah, it's so it's interesting and I'm curious how you think about, like how much of the role does like kind of your status as a player play and how you think. So, you know, a multi time PGA tour winner, you know, who's got like this sense of security versus a guy that maybe is trying to get you know, status on the web.
Like does does that situation.
And like kind of the role of where they are in life a play like a huge factor in where they the way they think, not.
As much as you would think. And it goes sort of both ways. So I've seen guys who have, you know, one tour events and locked on us for a couple of years, and they'll wake up the next morning and they'll have something new that's bothering them or something new that they're concerned with. Well, I better win again, because I don't want to be one of these guys that only wins one or and then you have the guys, on the other hand, who win their backs against the wall.
I have a guy who plays on the web. He literally had to make the cut to sort of keep going for the year, and not only did you make the cut, he end up winning. So I think there's guys that respond to that type of pressure differently. But the underlying sort of theme is this idea that regardless of where you are, there's always going to be another challenge. So accepting the fact that where you are is what's most important can help you to proceed without that feeling
of pressure. Sometimes not knowing what's coming next can be our greatest ally because then we can totally immerse ourselves on what we're doing in the moment. So helping guys understand that you just don't know what's going to happen. You may wake up next week and not want to play golf anymore. You just don't know, and that knowing
sometimes can be really powerful. And I think that's an idea I try to help guys understand a little bit better because everyone thinks, off I just lock up my card, or if I just win a tournament, I'll be happy and I'll have everything figured out, And then they do it, and then they're onto something else the next week, so it's constantly changing. So being in that moment is really what's most important.
Yeah, you hear that.
The being in the moment and staying in the moment so much, and you know, and focusing on you know, the shot at.
Hand rather than the overall, you know.
Kind of situation. What are you know, kind of your strategies for keeping golfers in the moment. I think every golfer out there, whether you're you know, on the verge of breaking ninety or you know, on the verge of qualifying for your club championship or the US Amateur or you know, the PGA Tour is.
Thinking these same things.
So, like, what are the kind of key strategies you have to keep keep them players in the moment?
Yeah, I mean, try to keep it very simple when it comes to this idea of being present or immersing yourself in the moment. You can't not think about something.
Think about that for a second. If I told you not to think about white elfin, that's immediately what you think about it, and then you'd spend the next thirty seconds or so sort of fighting with yourself trying not to so this idea that the first piece is understanding that, hey, I may be standing on the eighteenth T with this chance to break eighty for the first time and start to think about what it's going to feel like, and that's okay, because what most people think is, oh wait,
not supposed to think that, right, I'm having all these crazy thoughts about what it's going to feel like after. But I'm not supposed to think that because guys that do break eighty don't think about these things. So understanding that you can't control that piece is the first step. The second piece to being sort of in the moment is not necessarily willing yourself to just be in this moment.
It's simply recognizing when you're not so recognizing when you're standing on that eighteenth T my mind is wandering a bit too, you know, thinking about what it's going to feel like after. Okay, I understand these are normal. I'm going to use this as a sign or a signal to just bring myself back to this my shot right here, direct experience, so our think what our thinking. It's away from our direct experience. Always it shoots us up into the future and it takes us back from the past.
Things that already those again, it's not real, it's not It takes us away from this direct experience. So recognizing when you're not present is the way you remain present interesting. It's not this secret formula of saying I'm just the I'm gonna will myself to be in the present moment and I'm going to block out all the stuff that I have about the future of the past. It doesn't work that way. It's simply recognizing when you're not interesting.
So in terms of you know, how do you feel about you know, like the whole idea of like relation to par and score. I mean like I've I've started to think less and less about it because I've realized it matters so little because you could be playing great on a day and be too over, you know, and you know it's just.
A tough day.
But because there's this idea of score, you know, the yeah, you get all stressed out about it even though you could be everybody else is playing bad, you know, everybody else is shooting above par because it's really.
Tough out there.
Yeah, golf. Golf lends itself to that type of thinking because everything has a label attached to it, whether it's a certain shot, or it's an up and down, or it's a birdie putt, or it's how we stand to par. There's so many labels in golf that you know, you hear this all the time. Well, once you just go out there and not think about your score, that's the best thing to do. People talk about that all the time.
I don't know anybody who's been able to actually know how they how they don't stand, meaning they're just not thinking about score. They're so immersed in the moment they don't know until they add up. I don't know many people that can do that. I haven't heard many stories about people who are successful and they feel like that sometimes,
which is great. So recognizing when you start attaching labels and what those labels mean and how they make you feel is the first step in sort of removing the power from them, and when you can become aware of the fact that when you step on the green. I had this guy client of mine who I still work with, who every time he'd step on a green, regardless of the length of the pott, his first thought was, oh,
don't three putt. But there's a label right there, right, and that has something to do with relation to park. So now he understands that he still thinks that, but now he understands what it means. It doesn't mean anything, it's just the thought that he had, and he steps out on the green. He doesn't fight himself. He sort of greefs that thought and says, oh, here it is, and now I'm going to go out about and do
my business. So trying to get away from that idea of not thinking about how we stand can be really difficult, but understanding the sort of powerlessness of that thought in the moment it can be really beneficial. And I don't know if that sort of answers your question or gets it what you talking about, but that's that's sort of my feeling that you can never stop yourself from doing that,
so people do it more than others. But understanding that there's no power behind those thoughts really, because we've hit plenty of good shots and had crazy thoughts. And I think you could probably say that correct.
Yeah, yeah, I think you know like what I So, I had this moment last year where I was playing a qualifier and it was at it was at a really tough course. They've they've hosted a major championship and it was like a state qualifier and I'm on the eighteenth team and I'm playing with two guys that are good players, and you know, that qualify for pretty much everything, and I qualify for pretty much everything. And you know, I'm I'm four over par, and I didn't feel like I was playing.
Poorly, you know.
And yeah, and these guys are just numbers crazed golfers and they're they on this eighteenth t they convinced me that four over par is the score that is going to get out and sure, yeah, before we teed off on the eighteenth hole, so like, you know, they're they're they're so, they're like, oh, four over, four over has got to be the number.
There's no way it's going to be five over.
And I'm like, so, I hit a t shot and I'm in the right rough and I you know, I've got this kind of this It's like a green with water on both sides, and I like go at it from like a spot where I shouldn't have really played so aggressively, and I hit in the water. I make a triple bogie and I'm just like fuming it and I go in. I end up making it in on the number and then the scores come in and the
lowest score on the day was seventy five. And I yea, since that moment, I've you know, like I always know where I what I'm scored apar wise, but like, you know, like from that moment on, I'm like, I'm no longer going to associate a number to qualifying or a number to being good, because like I knew I was playing pretty well, Like I wasn't playing great. I had left shots out there, but like I knew I wasn't playing poorly.
And you know, like that if I'm struggling to score well, probably everybody else's.
That's a really yeah, that makes a ton of sense to me. And it happens time and time again, this idea that we think we need to shoot a certain number, or we play these games with ourselves thinking we need to get to a certain point and that you know, we'll get in, or we'll win the tournament, or we'll make the cut or whatever it may be. But in reality, like you said, you never know what score it's going
to take. And then I'll ask the question of guys saying things say, hey, how many times have you exactly what you needed to shoot and it was real and you went out and shot it or better, And that doesn't happen very often. Otherwise we'd have no worries at all if we do what we had to shoot and we went out and shoot it, shot it right. That's
not how you shoot good scores. You shoot good scores by this understanding that the thoughts you have about what you need to shoot don't mean anything, and you do your best right to sort of be where you say, where your feet are in the moment, trying to hit the shot that you have right now. Not And this is what we'll get back. This thing we talked about before this it's called in Eastern philosophy, the wisdom of uncertainty. If you didn't know what you had to shoot, wouldn't
it be a little bit easier? Or if you don't know Sometimes, if you're playing a course for the first time and you have some blind t shots, it's much Sometimes it's much easier to have us to swing free when you don't know what's out there. Yeah, some guys prepare so much and then they can't they're not flexible enough to adjust. The golf is so much variability in golf that they find it very difficult to be flexible when they need to be because they've prepared so much
that it robs of our freedom. And that's the same idea. When you know you have to shoot a certain score, it robs us of our freedom. So not knowing embracing that on certainty is so powerful, I believe. Yet we're always trying to control everything in golf.
Yeah, I imagine it only gets tougher for the guys that are playing on tour where they have the live scoreboards and leader boards because like, you don't have as much uncertainty, but you see numbers and you put place expectation time right, Yeah, that it is.
It does it is more difficult some guys and people ask me that all the time. Hey, should I look at the scoreboards? Should not? Well I'm not the one to jump. I can't make that decision for you. Do you look at scoreboards and does it? Do you find some piece or do you find some freedom from that? Great if you don't, don't look. But that's everyone's a
little bit different when it comes to that. But if I were to give one sort of piece of advice, in my experience, we play our best or we play most free when we don't know, and sometimes that can be a huge leap for guys who play, especially the highest level, who are so geared and you have to prepare, don't get me wrong, but you also have to remain flexible.
And that's something I think that's missing a lot in competitive golf, This this flexibility to be able to adjust when things are always going to be different.
Mm hmm, it's a it's interesting you say that.
So, like, you know, like last year, some of my best events, like where I played my best were Mondays after like I had a wedding that weekend, so I like did absolutely nothing and I showed up to the course a little bit of hazy still on Monday morning, and like I went out and shot you know, great scores and sure enough, like they were some of my best events versus the ones where you know, I, I'm really played well this week in this in this bigger tournament, and I was super prepared for it.
Right that. That's that's another thing that I talk about a lot, this idea of novel distinction. Uh. There's a great psychologist named Alan Langor who writes about this a lot. She talks about the way we can really sort of embrace the moment or keep ourselves where we need to be. Is adding some novel distinction to what we're doing. So the perfect example is if you were to brush your teeth with your opposite hand, how focused would you be on that moment? Or if you were signing your name, Yeah,
you'd be right there where you needed to be. So golf is the same, can be, can be? Sometimes the same is that can you be? So can you add some sort of novel distinction? Now, again, you're not going to want to show up to every term it, you know, or having that plate or not feeling a little but every time when we're not feeling a little bit, you know, not feeling great, or the weather is a little bit off, right, can you use that to really ground you in what
you're doing? And that's right, guy. I hear that a lot guys who play great when they're sick or they have a little injury, because there's sort of they're focused so much on what they're doing in the moment, not worried about what's coming next because they have other things that they're preoccupying their mind. So adding a little novel distinction sometimes can be really helpful and that's and that's what that is. That's that's exactly what you're sort of speaking to mm hm.
So you know, just what are some ways you can add novel distinction when you don't have it?
Yeah, I mean there's there's things you can do in your routine. There's things you can sort of you know, ask your you can I have guys sometimes ask themselves the question, hey, you know, how am I feeling right now? Checking in with yourself right in the moment, can you be right there? Or finding something on each hole that maybe you've never seen before. Can you pick out something on each hole each time you play? That's a little bit different. I mean, there's a there's a there's a
bunch of different ways, right. It's kind of hard to sort of develop enough that daily. But it's more the idea. And so people, you know, we talk about pre shot routines all the time, right, So you get into these routines that we do over and over and over and over again, and they're good for a lot of reasons,
but something they're lacking is this idea. Againting sometimes can rob us of the freedom that we need in that moment because we can sometimes a pre shot routine can have us so much on autopilot that we miss a lot of the information that we need in that moment.
Mm hmm, it's uh, I guess that's it. Yeah, it's something I had never even thought of. Yeah, I mean the pre shot routine discuss hammered down your throat all the time, and I think there's so much good to it. But like there is some thing about being kind of thinking about you know, where you are.
That's right, And you know, My thinking is that the more where we are of what we're experiencing in the moment, the better chance we have to sort of remove ourselves from not thinking. And if we're on autopilots so much, we miss that so again. So people find that to be troublesome. But I asked them the question, have you ever experienced that? How's it going? Have you ever showed up to a tournament without playing a practice run? How
have you done? How's it felt? In a lot of times they'll say, well, it actually felt pretty good to just sort of be only concerned with what I was doing in that moment, not worried about the t shot in seventeen or the green on fourteen that had all the undulation just being right there.
Yeah, it's it's interesting and it's super interesting. I think a lot of times playing like an event at your home course is a lot tougher than playing an event at a course that you know nothing about.
That's a great example. And I you know, you've played enough the events and you know, played in tons of stuff where guys sometimes struggle right at their home course because things aren't they thought they were going to be and they can't adjust.
Interesting, So, like, you know, like I think that's a good example for you know, a lot of the listeners where they played their club championship, you know, a year and year out.
What are some strategies for you.
Know, playing your home course in an event that you've got like a little bit more pressure and succeeding and playing like you would on a normal Saturday.
Yeah, And I think a lot of that pressure comes from right like, oh, I've played this course one hundred times, it's so easy. But understanding embracing this idea that every time you tee it up, regardless of where it is or how you feel, it's a brand new experience. So being in that brand new moment allows us to operate much more freely, and just the understanding alone that hey, it's just because it's on my home course, it's not
going to be any easier sometimes is enough. Because we go into these tournaments, a lot of people just don't think about it that way. Just think, oh, it's going to be j oh, I have the state and qualify at my home course this year. Finally it's going to be easy, and then things don't go as planned, or hey, I usually birdy these first three holes and now I'm
too over, Like what's going on? I can't adjust. So knowing that you need to be flexible, even more so when we're used to doing something over and over again, like playing our home course, can be very valuable.
So I think there's two kind of areas where most golfers struggle. Is either A starting rounds or B finishing rounds.
Yeah, and I'm curious kind.
Of what your your thoughts are and kind of tips you have for you know, the guy that A gets off to a slow start generally, or the player B who has really you know, who is two under par or whatever it is, but really has trouble bringing into the house without making a couple of few mistakes that they wouldn't normally.
Make Yeah, I think, I think for sure. The second the player be the guy who has trouble getting it in the house who's playing well, is at least from what I see, is much more popular sort of frame of mind, because there's so many things that lead to that that idea that, hey, how's it good? I got well, I'm about to shoot the course record. How am we
going to feel after if I don't? Right, Like, this is not like go out any day and shoot eighty, But now I've put myself in a position to shoot a really good score, and if I don't, it's going to be one hundred times worse. So now this fear starts to develop this idea, and now all of a sudden, we've lived out this entire scenario that hasn't even happened yet, simply because we started sort of paying attention to our thoughts and we were unable to remove ourselves from our thinking.
So they get back to this idea, can you get back to this point where you catch yourself almost or you can create enough space between having these thoughts and then acting in a way that's more skillful, Meaning I can use this as a signal to return to what I'm doing, and all that. All the reasons why people struggle coming down the stretch is it's for fear, right, there's no other reason. They're just afraid that, or they're in a place where they've never been. It's a little
bit uncomfortable. It's a little bit uncomfortable to be a few under power with a few holes left knowing you're about to shoot your best score forever because you've never been there. So that discomfort causes us to seek comfort. And in a situation like that, that doesn't exist. So our attempts to seek comfort take our focus away from what we're doing. So that that, to me is why you know, and again you said that happens a lot, and anyone who's played the game, is that an experience
like that. As far as starting poorly, you know, most of that I think from same idea, the nerves of oh, oh my god, what if I shoot a huge number today?
Or you know, again, we start creating these scenarios they haven't even happened yet, and we start believing them, and then we start reacting to that, and then on the first t you're so tense you can't even pull it back and it could take a little wile, and then you get to a point where this always happens, where you're a few over after a few holes, and then you have to statitude like, oh, I don't care anymore, right, and then things start to get a little bit easier,
and then it just can happen within around and then you can get to a point where, oh my god, I'm all the way back to even par I better not screw this one up, and then you're back to that second scenario. Right. So it's constantly going on, regardless of where we stand. You could always think of something crazy that could happen, and we usually do as golfers, and then we start to believe it, and then we start to respond to it, and then we get tense
and then you can't play. And that's how that's sort of the progressions that we all fall on to.
Almost like golf, it's just the tension. It's getting rid of tension.
It's all it is. Right, So it's helped guys try to create some freedom, and that's all it comes down to. Yeah, I can't help guys play better, but understanding how you can be a little bit more free on the golf courses really all you're trying to accomplish.
It's interesting, it's and I think that obviously is the toughest thing is out. I mean, no matter what, you get these thoughts in your head, and it's just removing the tension and saying it doesn't really matter if you hit it here or hit it there, because it doesn't you know, in the end.
It really does. It may matter in the moment, and that's fine too, But like you said, you're going to have all those thoughts no matter what. Nobody's above having those thoughts. I've never talked to a guy who's wanted tournament who said they weren't thinking crazy things coming down the stretch. I've never heard it. I've never heard say something someone says, oh my god, my mind was completely clear. It was so easy. It was like, I don't even know what happened, doesn't happen?
What A what a your thoughts on?
You know?
I heard earlier this year, you know, like just the idea of matching kind of your personality and general demeanor to your golf game and and general demeanor on the golf course.
Do you think that's important.
For only one reason in that when we're happy in our own skin and understand that what we have is enough. We're not trying to beat somebody else. That's when we can be our most free. Right. So to tell a guy who's sort of a fiery guy, just hey, you got to really be calm on the golf course doesn't work. How does it feel when someone tells you to calm down when you're fired up?
Yeah?
Doesn't It feels worse? Calm down? What's he talking about? So trying to get someone to be somebody different is one challenging and two not necessary. Because again, any time we have this idea that something would be better, or we don't have what we want in that moment, that's when we start to feel that tension again. So yeah, I completely agree with that idea of hey, you know that's simple, right, be yourself regardless of what that is.
I mean again, golf has rules. You can't be a total you're kind of golf course, but to an extent, you know, you just got to be real. John Rahm's a great example, right, He guys doesn't hold back m he's so he is, and I think there's plenty of guys would want to have his success, you know. But he tried to bottle that up, his head's gonna explode.
Yeah, that's it.
It's interesting, you know, like you know, versus holding it up or getting it out, because like you know, people are get so you know, turned off by people that you know let out their anger.
But like in the same.
Time, like you you know, you you have to get it out or else it's just gonna steam and it's going.
To carry over into the next shot and the next hole.
There's an old saying what we resist or sists and for anger and frustration you can it couldn't be more true. M h right, So but again there I think also though, the anger doesn't serve us very well in the long term, so sometimes we have to learn that lesson the hard way. So sometimes God will get the point where I just can't. I don't want to be angry anymore because the game I don't feel good. So you can learn that on your own, but having someone tell you to not be angry never works.
So so what would you say to a player that you know like and not you know, like that run similar to John Ron where he gets hot, Like what would you be your strategies and like, you know, the ways to get your anger out with that. Aren't like publicly you know, you know, you know, you give you a bad perception.
Yeah, I mean I think right, and I think as golfers, especially at that highest level, we we do know that, right, Like he knows deep down that this behavior one is probably serving him very well and two at some point could get him in trouble, right, whether it's financially or something right, So, I mean, you just can't do that. So letting guys know that there are other ways to respond is number one. There are other ways to respond to situations other than get angry or upset and explain
to them what those reactions mean. And again it's a process, but again sometimes guys just take some time. They need to learn that on their own. But to let them know that there are other ways to respond that will provide you an opportunity to sort of operate from a much you know, more free feeling because anger sort of binds us up also a little bit, and especially at
the highest level, they're concerned with playing good golf. Well there's other there's you could play better responding in different ways, but it's not something you just snap your finger and like I said, tell a guy to stop being it doesn't work that way.
Yeah, it's a it's a process like anything. They changing the way.
Yeah, and it's it's not that it's not just it's not changing the way you think as much as changing the way you think about how you think, if that makes sense. It's relating to your thoughts in a different way because we can't really change how we think, but we can change our understanding of what our thoughts mean. And that's really that's what that's where the sort of shift comes from.
So, you know, I think like where the biggest fear, you know, we've talked a lot about like the fear of failing, and you know, the fear of missing. And you know where I think it comes out the most is on the putting green, you know. And and these truly great putters they seem to pour everything in. And people that are you know, good putters or average putters or below average putters. I always wonder like, how does this guy make so many putts? And what is he
thinking when he's putting? Do you do you have something that you like to you know, kind of preach of like getting you know, thoughts out of your head and just thinking about you know, making the putt while you putt, or like, how what's your kind of philosophy on putting?
Yeah, No, I definitely steer away from the idea that you need to change what you think because again that that'll we'll get back to that idea of sort of creating tension, but changing your understanding about what those thoughts mean. It can be a game changer for a lot of guys to know that you can stand over a pot and not feel one hundred percent about making it and still make it, because that happens all the time. And
the problem with putting is it's black or white. It either goes in or it doesn't, and there's an immediate sort of judgment. If you're on the tee and you hit one in the rough, you can still make an eagle or burden, but on the green you get the immediate result right away. So there's such an emphasis on making or missing it's very difficult to remove that right no matter who you are, you just can't. You can't get away from it. So it either goes in or
it doesn't. So I think expectation on the green is really you know, the first place to start with that if you look at the top tour pros and how many putts they make inside ten feet. I think a lot of people are surprised how many they actually missed. So expectation is the first piece. But the greatest example there is you know, if someone has the Y so they struggle with the short ones, right, those guys don't struggle with thirty footers or forty footers. Their strokes pretty smooth.
It's only because this idea that WHOA, if I miss the short putt, how am I going to look? Or how is it going to feel? So it's starting to get to that like how does this make me feel when I miss it? And then starting to work back course from that you can start once you start unraveling that fear. Now it's a little bit easier to make that stroke. Now again, it doesn't guarantee you're gonna make a putt, but all you can do is make a good stroke. It's all you can do.
Yeah, that's it's true. So it's just it's trying to get away from the it's just understanding you're gonna miss putts and you know it happens, but like the I mean, and that's like part of like you know, they always say that Tommy Roy and like I forgot the other producer for CBS is like the most powerful man in golf because they determine what the public perception is.
Yeah, that's a great that's a great point. I say these guys all the time. When you're watching golf on TV, what do you see?
You see the leaders, you see people making poses great? Yeah, and you see him making I have a joke with my dad.
My dad, he's a big golf fan, and we always talk on He'll talk on Monday and he always says, man, that guy who won, he played great. Yeah, no ship he won. So but that's all we see. So people, the average fan doesn't know, doesn't walk practice rounds with these guys, doesn't see the guys that are struggling to make the cup, doesn't see the guys missing three or four floors. So we just assumed that, hey, this is
what golf is. It's making everybody's hitting every fairway, and it's winning tournaments.
I mean, that's why I always tell people, like the best way to watch a golf tournament is to find like a group of good players, But don't go watch the stars. Find like the guys that are you know you're you're good, you know, maybe above average, middle of the road player on the PGA tour and walk with them for eighteen holes, because then you see the ebbs and.
Flows of the round, you know, where you.
Know, I'm curious what you think about this, but like I think that there's always no matter what like three or a four hole stretch where you lose.
You know, it's very rare for.
You to hit the ball great for eighteen straight holes, and so much of is dictated on like when you hit that patch where you struggle, is how you get out of that patch.
You couldn't be more right about that, And that's the best you're that's the best way to watch see when a guy faces some adversity or when he's a little uncomfortable, what he does right, Because these guys make their money not when they're playing great, but when they're playing poorly, and how they adjust in those situations because the game, like you said, it's too hard to play great breaking holes or for a freaks in a row, it's just
too hard. So you really earn your money right when things aren't going so well, because you sort of find ways to put up a decent number when you're not playing well because it's too hard to play well all the time. So yeah, and I agree with that. Watching the group, if you have that opportunity, can be really beneficial regardless of who it is, because you really see everything as far as you're going to struggle at some point during them out or some holes and everything's just
gonna look easier. Putts are going to drop or sometimes they're going to miss a few putts and what are they going to do next, And that can be a really interesting perspective.
M Yeah, I think that's it's like, you know, people get caught up and standing, you know, and it does require a lot more work.
I mean, you're gonna walk eighteen holes, you're gonna.
Sure, you know, no, for sure, not everyone has that opportunity.
But at the same time, you you lose you know, you.
When you're just sitting on a hole or you're trying to watch the you know, the star players that that featured pairing, Like, you lose so much perspective because you're fighting the crowds and you're not going.
To see every shot.
You know.
It's it's it's a you know, I think it's a really unique because all these guys are so good and they all have all the skills and the margins are so razor thin that you know, it's interesting at the players where you know, I watched Blaine Barber play a lot of golf and Blaine finished like, you know, like I think you finished top twenty that event. And in the first two rounds he had he had like two moments where he made like, you know, a double or a triple and and it wasn't like he hit a
bad shot. But then you know, I watched Sea Woo Kim his pretty much his entire back nine of his of the final round, and you see him in similar situations, and that's where he won because he got up and down and was stress free, you know, putting it, you know, like he was hitting tips to two feet, where Blaine Barber you know, makes a double and and that, yeah, that those micro moments was the difference between Blaine Barber winning and finishing you know, t twentieth and see Wu
winning and finishing you know tenth.
You couldn't be more right that the the difference is so small. And again that's what it comes down. It's it's you know, when you have face some adversity what are you going to do with it? Because you're going to and if you run from it and you try to seek comfort in those situations, you're going to struggle.
So so with it, you know, is it just you know, is it really commitment?
Is it? Is it saying I'm just going to hit this shot?
The idea of committing seach. Are you hear that a lot? Right? Like this idea like you've got to commit one hundred percent each shot? Well, what does that mean? You know? That's why I ask guys don't know? What does it mean to you to commit? Because a lot of guys don't know what it means to be committed. Does that mean I tell myself I'm committed. Does that mean I'm not thinking about anything else? Does that mean?
You know?
There's a lot and everyone's got a little sort of different idea. But once you come up with your own definition of commitment, now you've reached sort of this new level of commitment because I think it means something different to everyone. So so defining that first is really important, and I think you know, you'd be surprised. I'm surprised always when I ask guys what that means? That a lot of people don't know. Yeah, I don't know, Like
I just want to hit a good shot. Well, of course, you want to hit a good shot every hole or every shot. So defining that for people is really important. That's the first step, and that that's a tool that people you know who are listening can take with them. Take a minute and define what commitment means to you and write it down and bring it with you, and I think you'd be surprised how different it is than what you think it is. So but then you have the example of guys who you know you can still
hit good shots and not be committed. I mean it's ideal, right, but there's going to be shots where you're standing over to me, you're just not going to feel good. So understanding that you can still hit good shots in those moments can also be really powerful, because if we're trying to get committed in a situation where we're just not, it's not going to happen. Then that tension comes right that we talked about. So for me, I guess the idea.
I'm sort of obsessed with this idea of creating freedom, and I believe it comes from this happiness with where we are in the moment this content and it's not being a lazy sort of just settling. It's a it's a complete excesence of what we have in that moment and knowing that that's enough and that's going to give me the best shot chance to be committed to hitting a shot.
It's that you being content.
How how much do you think playing partners and like and uh caddies player like, you know, like especially at a at a higher level on tour, Like, is that because of that comfort you just talked about?
Is it? You know?
Is there some Is there a lot of effect that having a good pairing and you know, obviously you have to have a good caddy relationship.
Yeah, I think, I think, And I've been fortunate enough to get to know a lot of the caddies quite well and such good guys, and people forget that. You know, if you know your guy doesn't make the cut makes the money, you're not going to be making as much money either. So there's this added sort of built in
pressure sometimes on players. Hey, I want to pay well because I want my guy to feel good about me, like we're gonna make some money too, Like, I mean, you know it sounds silly, but there's there's added sort of layer to that relationship. So the best caddies are the guys that sort of instill this sort of comfort really right, regardless of the situation, everything's you know, this is gonna be good. And those those are the best,
the guys that have that figure. And again, the guys that get to know their players well, know what you know makes some tick almost You know when to say something and when not to because everyone's different as far as players are concerned in terms of what they need. Some guys need a little extra handholding. Some don't want to hear work when they're playing. So those relationships can
be huge. And again, like I said, I've been fortunate enough to sort of see some of those relationships develop and how powerful they can be.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's you see it. You have guys.
You see it in in am golf, even like where you have buddies caddy. I like, my favorite caddy for myself is like I have a cousin who's a high school based ball coach and he used to be a really he was a minor league pitcher and he just understands like what to say and like he's good at motivating and you know, especially like when I you know, I have a tendency to get down on my luck and down in the dumps, and and you know, he has a good.
Way of like getting me out of being a.
Moper, you know, right, right, But I think you know, he has that built in, like that's what he does, you know, nine months of the year with high school kids.
You know, right, So I think.
That helps a ton, And it's not necessarily you know, the best caddy isn't necessarily the best player, you know, or the guy that you play the most golf with, because he's probably the guy that knows how to how to raz you and get under your skin a little bit.
Yeah, exactly, that's right, That's that's exactly right. So but so you know, right, you know how important those relationships can be.
Mm hmm. It's interesting.
So we do, like this a little overrated underrated segment and I want to get into that here. And the first one I'm I'm curious about. And you know, usually these are like you know, answers that are like you know, overrated, underrated, but you know, feel free to expound because I think that it beneficial, you know, preparing differently for different.
Events like, you know, this is a big event, so I'm going to prepare differently.
What's what are your thoughts on preparing for like major championships overrated?
Because it is great it would be to win those events. Everyone that tees it up in a normal event wants to win, just as dead, So why would you prepare any different for you know, I think preparing for what the event you know, may feel like is a little bit different, like it's a different animal. As a majors, it's there, there's a lot more going on and preparing yourself for that maybe you know a little bit different.
But as far as your attempt to play your best and put yourself in the best position, you're trying to do that every time.
M Yeah, I think that I do.
I'm you know, I try and prepare more for different events. But you know, it's it's probably not smart to do.
It's like, you know, well it's.
But sometimes for folks like us, we just you know, we only have a few big events and that's it, and or we have time constraints as far as what we can do. But you want to do like it's just saying, guys all the time, the objective of golf is the same regardless of if you're playing in a mixed nine hole member guest or if you're playing in the US Open. It's always to make the lowest score
possible in every hole. It doesn't change, So why would you change your preparation Try to achieve that goal regardless of the outside.
Right.
The labels that we attached to tournaments are what they mean when the objective is always the same.
Yeah, it's it makes sense.
It's it's just making it simpler really.
In a way. Yeah, I mean it's because it is simple. We complicate things by attaching all these labels to it. But the objective is always the same. And I sometimes a lot of my work with people is just reminding them of that in so many, you know, in different ways,
but that idea that it's always the same. Yeah, you know, there's very few moments in your career where making a boge is going to be okay, right, I mean you could probably count them on one hand, where like you have a ten shot lead or something and making a bogue you would be okay. It's usually ninety nine percent of time it's putting yourself in a position to make the lowest possible score. And it doesn't change from that ever.
So swing thoughts overrated, underrated.
I don't know if I can give you an answer, because again this comes back to this idea that you can tell yourself not to have swing thoughts and you still might have them, or you may tell yourself to have swing thoughts and forget them. You can still play at a high level regardless of what it is you're thinking. So I guess in that respect I would say overrated. I mean, either have them or you don't. It's not a whole lot you can do about it. You can
write something down and read it before every shot. If that helps you find some comfort, great, But you can also hit the ball just as well with us. But I think people fall into this trap a lot of times and say, oh, man, I've heard I'm only supposed to have two or three swing thoughts. Well, try and limit yourself to have two or three thoughts before each shot and see how that goes. Our minds are constantly run, constantly working, so there's some tension right there limiting yourself
to thoughts. Does that make sense?
Yeah?
Yeah, I think I think it does. I think well, it probably has to do a lot with your personality too.
Yeah.
Yeah, some guys, you know, find out I like this to use the term, and I work with a lot of coaches and we try to develop swing feels instead of thoughts. So like coach will be work with a player and they're working on a certain sort of move or position and it will say, okay, put a word to that. Whatever. It could be. Anything, be pizza, it
could be screwdriver, could be anything. And that's your that's your feel, that's your swing feel, right, So when you say that to yourself that you know, you know what that feels like, and that's what and that's where you're trying to get. That's what. That can be a little bit more tangible and a little bit more easy to sort of work with. Mm hmm.
I think that's uh, it's that it makes a lot of sense. It's uh So next one is equipment.
That's it.
Yeah, like equipment, like the idea equipment.
Yeah, all right, so let's yeah, equipment, we're going We're going very broad here.
I may be a little hypocritical because in addition to what I do and helping folks try to simplifize things, I'm a huge equipment sort of geek. And I'm a big fan of golf w r X, and I'm on there all the time. I buy buy stuff on eBay all the time, and I'm always own stuff, and so I try to separate it too. I know I would probably be a better golfer if I didn't change my putter every two weeks, but I enjoy that piece of
the game. Like to me that that's part of the enjoyment I get from golf is the equipment, and I love reading about it and I love learning about it when it comes to working with my players. I think it's when it comes to the putter at least, that sometimes a brand new look can can shake things up a little bit. But in the end, I think getting too far away from what got you to a certain point, trying to find the quick fix with equipment can be you start yourself down a little slippery slope there. I
think the putter more than anything. I think irons and drivers, they're all so good now, and we're talking about guy at the highest level. They equipment companies can basically make them anything they want. Yeah, So I don't necessarily think that that's that's an issue as much, but I do believe that there's something for the putter, and I think that's that's more of a personal sort of connection.
Yeah, I kind of meant the putter. I should have
have narrowed that down. That's what I was thinking of. Curious, he said something that made me think of a question I would curious your perspective of is, like, you know, these guys that get to tour and then you know, you know, there's a lot of cases of like they get to tour based off their game, and then they try and add a wrinkle to their game that they feel they're looking in, like whether it be distance or the ability to hit the ball certain a certain you know, certain shape.
What are your thoughts on that?
My thoughts are pretty clear cut on that. And there's an example and that every time you hear a guy who sort of maybe disappeared for a couple of years and gets back to where they were or it starts finding success again, they usually say the same thing. I just try to simplify things, or I try to get back to what I used to do. Right. Does that resonate a little bit like he heard out stories before? Correct?
I think we grew up all of us, A lot of us in the Tiger era, where he was winning tournaments and constantly tinkering with a swing to get better. And I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to get better. But I do believe when we play our best again, it comes back to this idea that we're happy with what we have and we sort of wear it out, I meaning we know exactly what we're doing.
It's comfortable to us. It's not a big change. So I do believe that for that reason alone, that this idea of really trying to simplify things physically or at least using them as a guide, is what's most important. It was always important and always guys are always wanting to get better, and I get that that's fine. Motivates people, but getting too far away from what got you to where you are can be it can be tough.
Yeah, it's I think that's you know, you got to play your game and uh own your.
Yeah, but you know, there's such, there's such We're pulled in so many different ways. I mean, you see it even on tour. Guys walk down the range and they're seeing guys do different drills and you know, hitting different clubs, and they're they're they're asking about it and constantly, you know, tinkering with things to try and improve, and it's there's such an allure, there's such a you know, it's hard
to get away from. And it's always basic equipment. Companies are coming out with new stuff every couple of months and it's new and it's shiny, hit ten yards farther. You know, why not? Maybe maybe that's the secret. So so fighting that can be really difficult for guys, but I do believe that, like you said, yeah, owning what you do is really important.
So you got to talk to all these world class golfers and and you know, you you.
You probably learn a lot yourself.
But like, who's the one guy, whether he's you know, playing actively now or whether he's you know, he's kind of past his playing days, who's the guy that you'd like to have like a weekly or monthly conversation about golf with that you don't get to.
Yeah, I mean, tiger Woods would be the unanimous or would be the easy answer for a guy who found so much success under such a microscope, That would, to me, would be the ultimate to to get a peek into that sort of world. But current now, guys that are playing with Like, I really am a fan of how DJ plays. People say he doesn't he looks like he doesn't care and so, but he absolutely does. But he's
been able to overcome such adversity. I mean, all the things that have happened to him in majors where he's played poorly for it also was you know, social issues, everything that's sort of you know, gone against him. He's found a way to succeed. And that, to me is really impressive. And that's another guy that now that I think what he's done is quite admirable and a lot of people should look to that guy as a model in terms of how you face adversity and how you overcome it.
Yeah, I feel like everybody like the easy storyline is like, oh, DJ doesn't really work that hard. It's like, you know, like you don't get to world number one if you don't work hard, you.
Know, right, And hard work is sort of this is there's a big misconception. Hard work doesn't necessarily mean going in the range for eight hours and beaten balls. Hard work is finding what works for you, right, whether that's hitting balls for ten minutes or its hitting whatever. But he's he's found that and he does care, I guarantee you, I know, for fat right, and he works at it whatever that means to him.
Yeah, he's found his his piece.
And I think like that his his mentality on the golf course, Like I mean I always look at that and be like, god like, it just doesn't look.
Like he like he feels so in peace with what he's doing.
You know, he does, and it's almost more fun it selfishly not for him to see him when's struggling, not much changes and he's really good. It's just the meanor is fantastic and obviously don't know what's going on inside his head, but he just projects this sense of freedom that that's to me is like that's gold.
Yeah, it's it's he's a he's in very interesting study and watching him hit a golf ball is pretty unbelievable.
Also, Yeah, he's also a physical freak. I mean, he's unbelievable. He can do and I mean freaking the nicest sense of the word. And it's it's fat it's but like you said, it's fascinating to watch.
So hey, we we appreciate uh you coming on, it was uh it was fun.
Talk. We'll have to we'll have to do it again.
Everybody can find uh, Greg, you're on Twitter, It's at GC three Greg, and then any any other way people can can get get reached out to you.
Yeah, I'm I have a website with my contact information at least not a whole lot of information just now mindful mindset dot com. H And I'm also on Instagram and trying to get some more content up there. I'm sort of behind the times when it comes to social media, but same address on on Instagram GC three Greg.
Yeah you got. I don't know what your Instagram strategy should be.
I'll think about a lot of stuff on there is pictures of my kids and a couple of golf stuff. But so I gotta, uh, I gotta, I gotta get that ramped up a little bit.
Maybe quotes, you know, quotes could be cool.
Yeah, that's actually not a bad idea.
Yeah, they look into.
That interesting little thoughts that people could take, you know.
So yeah, no, I liked it.
But yeah, we.
Appreciate you coming on and uh look forward to keeping in touch.
Yeah for sure, I really enjoyed it. I enjoyed you and uh that'sk of luck with the podcast and we would love to come back