Curtis Tyrrell

I miss the green. For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

And when I find my ball in a fried egg, Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday Frida Egg, Frida Egg, bride Egg Lie.

I'm about ready to run off of thelf course.

Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the Friday Egg Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Madina Superintendent, head of Head of Grounds.

Director of golf Course Operations.

Specific Director of golf Course Operations, Curtis Tyrrelle Curtis, Welcome.

On, Thank you, Andy, appreciate the opportunity.

Hey, it's a it's a I been meaning to do this. You know, I think you've got a very interesting story. You've got a first background between you know, multiple renovations out here, multiple major events. You know, one of the biggest golf you manage, one of the biggest golf facilities of you know, that's in the United States. And I think a great way to start would be like, how'd you get here?

Oh? Yeah, it's been a wild ride.

I'm originally from Maryland and I graduated from Elon University, North Carolina. With a degree in history, and I had worked on the golf courses, you know, through high school

Is that the place Obama was that Woodmont?

That was Woodmont? Yeah, that's Woodmont not too far away. But yeah. So a couple of years later, I went back.

To Penn State and enrolled in their a two year turf grass management program, and then you know, the just took off. I felt obviously, I said, already I fell in love with it. I mean it was just a Penn State was a great environment, really competitive. In the early nineties when I was there. You know, there was twenty four kids in our class, and Michigan State had a big class and it was really you know, a hot career path and things, so you had to, you know,

With the industry.

And that was something I really liked about it at the time. I mean, golf was getting built all over the world, and I saw it as a way to see the world and do something I love. And so when I graduated, I went out to work for my mentor, Mike Evans.

His mentor guy by name of Virgil.

Robinson at PGA West in Lakana, California, and at the time they had just finished the fifth course there, and I think there's an eighth there now, which was the Wes's Cough Course. So I went out there as an assistant superintendent and worked on the Weiss Colf Private, the Nicholas Private, the Palmer Private, did a little bit of time on the Stadium Resort course, and kind of worked

And at the time we were Ford and went and went to.

Five courses, so multiple course facility, golf course construction, tournament experience, desert agronomy, you know, cool season grasses, warm season grasses. I mean it was it was awesome, and you know, it's just a wonderful experience. And after three years, I got a job in Vegas and I went up to Anthem Country Club.

All over Yeah, no, it was. It was a wild.

Desert, yeah, I was, I know.

I mean when I was out there, I was like, I couldn't wait to get out of there because it's so hot every summer, and I just kept saying, I'm never going to do another summer in the day. They just kept coming, you know, I just like I couldn't get out of there. But they were all great experiences. And Anthem was Keith Foster designed eighteen hole private club which was owned by a developer, and when they sold out the community, they sold the club to another developer

And I'm like, of course, like when do we go?

You know?

And they're like, well, actually, you know, can you be there Friday and meet the owners? And I'm like okay. So I flew out to huh Lake of Isles, which is a new property was about to be built in southeastern Connecticut right next to Long Island Sound, and it was associated with the Fox With Casino, and so it was owned by the Native American tribe that ran that casino, and they're about to build a sturdy six hole facility around a ninety acre lake on an old boy scout camp.

So ultimately the owday.

Oh it was yeah, yeah, it was. It was.

It was he was turning in Vernon.

He was turning in Vernon, and.

You know, so I got that job and went over there, and I mean I was there when we cut the first tree out of there and carved these two golf courses over over two years, I mean two years with no golfers, building two golf courses. I mean it was like Superintendent's dream, you know. I mean we were just having a ball and it was a big project. A lot of infrastructure, a ton of ledge. We I've never been around ever since before then or since then, so

You can't see one hole from.

The next, you know, this classic uh you know that that era's classic. Uh you know, golf course that winds through the woods and and you really you're really out there on your own. And Reese just did a fantastic job two championship designs up there, and uh, you know, loved it, stayed on, we opened it up, was managed

And I'm like, you know, let's go.

You know, you know, I was super excited, and so I interviewed for the position and got it, and you know, it was a you know, big moment in my life.

Man. I was super pumped, you know, to come to a place like this.

Yeah, I mean it's it's a heck of a facility. Not many bigger than this one. I mean the rounds per year just huge, and I mean it's three drastically different golf courses now too, which we'll get to. You aut curious with your experience at Lake the Lake the isles, how like seeing it grow in for three years? I

You know what? Hell man?

It's it really depends on on the site and any specific conditions that are going on there, and then the business model.

You know.

I mean, if if you're gonna if this place is going to give played aggressively, it's gonna mature differently.

Than one that isn't.

And you know, in some in some cases, it could force the maturation to come forward sooner, right because you got to you got to make certain adjustments and perform certain practices to be able to handle all that traffic. But you know, I think in general, you've you know, at least people always said it's about three years, and I think that that is definitely a good benchmark in time. I mean, the day that you open the golf course. I mean, let's just say that you were given enough

We opened them.

Roughly a little less in some holes than others, but you're given enough time to grow it in. I mean, it's really it's really sharp when you open it up. But there's a real specific time frame that is the construction maintenance activities to the maintenance activities of operating it where you learn a ton. I mean, you see your mowerware, you see your cart and player, where you see irrigation challenges and adjustments, You see drainage issues which last forever.

I mean, the turf is really.

High quality all the time, and like I said, you got to learn how to maintain it. But it's that periphery stuff, the tie in things that need time to mature and really bring the whole course together.

I mean those the small little details are like the things that seem I mean, I might look at courses a little bit different than your average show, but like you know, the walks from teas to greens, the transitions, the rough lines and the cut lines, like those little small details like the bunker lines, the you know, the

But oh it's tough.

It's there's a lot of pressure, and you know, for us here at Madina, we we learned the hard way. So, you know, the Course three project, while we while I was new and I outlined what I felt like we needed, you know, there was pressure and we we caved a little bit and we got out there too soon, and it made the grow in a little longer than it needed to be because we were running a ton of rounds through it, and uh, it was it was more challenging.

We were all on the same page and it's worked out real well.

So with the you know, three separate projects. As you've you know, grown here and you've become more familiar with the membership and they've become more familiar with you, how

No, I mean, you.

Know what's interesting about that question is that my role has really been the same from the beginning, but their confidence level and me has grown. And you know, so when I got here, you know, the leaders of the club at that time, you know, we're very specifical and wanting to take on these projects and needing an expert with the experience to both run a multi course facility prep for a big tournament, but also develop and manage and execute these projects. And so they empowered me right

That was the hard part.

Was was was was explaining to that to them and and making that clear and and and uh because it wasn't necessarily what they expected. But you know, uh, what's been great is they've continued to put their confidence me in me and allow me to lead really on those projects end and and they've just gotten easier, you know, I mean, like going back to the you know, Reese was already uh, you know here and and and working

Course one, you know, that was that was my role.

To assemble different people to reach out to the various architects out there that they wanted to talk to, set up the meetings, bring the engineers in, make sure that those two parties could collaborate get the permitting process going. And you know, it's it's a unique process. And I've been very fortunate to work for for the members of Madonna and a very blessed to have their confidence to be able to do it.

It's been a really great experience.

So, you know, I think anybody that knows a little bit about architects would say that recent Tom or on a little bit on the other ends of the spectrum. So what's it like to you know, work with each of them? You know, and what are the you know, the differences? And then is there anything that they do similar? And you know kind of what have you learned from each of them?

You know, It's funny, Andy is I've been waiting for somebody to ask me that question. I've I've had a lot of different interviews or you know, conversations, and and nobody who's and I've been waiting for that question, and trying to prepare for it for many years.

It's a great question. You know.

What's what's interesting is that they are they are very different people personality wise, but they they are both. When when you when you understand that they're both world class, top tier golf course architects, you start to understand the similarities. And what I mean is the way they approach a project like I mean Tom's approach to a project and his finished project product is completely different necessarily than than than Reese's finished product.

But you know, they both have to.

Work through the same pathway of logistics, practicality, engineering, floodplain, you know, drainage, all these things they're all in the same play for each of these guys, right, so they both have to kind of they both have their way of working through those to get to the end result. And it's interesting to see, you know, how they do it. You know Reese, I've known Reese for for many years now and I consider him a friend and a mentor.

And then when I met Tom.

It really just opened my eyes to uh, you know, you know, just somebody that was completely different personality wise, but and stylistically artistically what he would create, you know, and watching what he did it out there, you know, really blew my mind and opened it to a whole new level of architecture.

And I think it really helped.

Uh, those experiences really helped me be play my role when it came to the two project. But you know, they both really respect each other. Reese coming from a completely different era and a different kind of way up the line than Tom. But like I said, you know, managing them as partners and and as knowing them as people, you know, they're they're both world class and and it's really been great for Madonna to have both of those guys have such great products out here.

It's i mean, like completely different philosophies of design and

The sure sure? You know?

And I think I think just to go back before I dive into that one too. You know, I don't think Reece gets enough credit in today's uh critiques of architects for his his management.

And use of the land.

You know, I think I think he gets classified into a group of architects that came up through that ear of mass building, you know, when when they were in business and they just had so many projects and it had to be contract and there was dis engineering and land plan or routings and all these things. And I think, you know, he's kind of put in that bucket. But yet, you know, I mean he's looking at it from the most practical standpoint and the most minimalistic standpoint that he

But if that makes sense, I don't know if I'm.

Rambling, But you know, when we did Course one with Tom, it was a hybrid of the contract design build, so Brian Schneider was on site and Brian shaped all of the key features, so the greens bunkers, but we also had Wadsworth Golf on site and they did a lot of the mass earth moving. And what I mean is one third of that project with Storm Draine and floodplay improvements, so we had a lot of cuts, we had a lot of pipe going in to get water off that place.

You know.

With Reese, you know at the Lake of Isles, I he had these plans, and Steve Wiser and Bryce Swanson they would they'd come up and they'd come up as often as they could, and considering where they lived and close to that project, they were up a lot.

And so that was great. I got to learn a lot, but.

They'd leave and they kind of after we got comfortable with each other, they'd leave it to me to make sure that when they got.

Back it was done a certain way. So it was my job to kind of work with.

Those shapers and say, closer to the green with this bunker, flash this higher, This.

Needs to roll more, you know.

So I was over there massaging what they were doing based on their direction.

And you know, that was interesting because we had.

Freelance contractors working through a major golf course contractor out of Montreal, and they all spoke crunch and I mean it was just a wild deal. Move it over here to Wadsworth. You know, I've gotten to know their their team, and they've done all our work here, and they've got some fantastic shapers in their own right, and they are, uh,

And they get a lot of reps.

They get a lot of reps, and so they've got they've got a lot in their repertoire. But they need if if if somebody's not there to direct them to be different, they're going to kind of build that standard template, you know.

And that's that's what we did, was we.

Got them to break out of that mold on course too and shape completely different than they normally did. And so re Reese's involvement and Steve's involvement, you know, was was just the same where they we talk about what it would look like and then I would make sure that, you know, it was getting built that way. Whereas with Tom, you know Tom and Brian. Tom would come up, Brian would build it, you know, they'd talk about it and and Brian would.

Make all all the subtle things.

And then as Wadsworth came in to kind of prep it for finishing and my crew would come in to seed it, you know, Brian would be there looking over our shoulder, to make sure we didn't take anything out essentially, you know what I mean, he had it the way he wanted so in the finishing process, don't lose that ridge, don't don't don't soften that role, you know. So it

And help me.

Yeah, start your own firm.

Yeah, because they're they're really good.

It's it's it seems to me when I look at it, all parties are more aligned that way because there's no competing interest. It also seems like for the club, you've got one direct path. There's never has it have you? That's you know something I've always wondered, like, have you ever had a situation in your experience where like whether even be back at Desert Mountain, like where the contractor the designer and the club, like you know, there was

Yeah, you know what it deesner't Moount. It was Jack Nicholson. He built all those courses and so he would come out and whatever he said went. You know what I mean, it was never a struggle there and and.

That was that was you.

Know, interesting and fun to get in the back of a pickup truck with Jack Nicholson ride to site.

You know, I didn't say a word. I just listen, you know, but you know what he said went there in the.

Lake of Isles was was was really from the ground up. So you know, Reese had full artistic control. I mean, he did have a budget and a project managers and things that he was accountable to. And we did run into issues, like I said, with rock and dynamite things that were big dollar things. But Reese's you know, very you know, creative and good at that kind of stuff,

And he held that line, yeah, exactly, and he held that line in it. And I'm happy to say that that remained consistent as others followed him through the through the board, and through the Green Committee, and and you know, we we've had really I mean, both the architects have always wanted to hear from the membership, and the membership's had their chance to provide their input or give their opinions.

He was in the end that they let him do whatever he wanted. And I remember when we were trying to get the design out of him, you know, the final one for review, you know, he was he and Reese both were kind of you know, like, are you sure, And I'm like, look, if you want to blow it up, blow it up.

They want to.

See that they want to see what you think, not what you think they want. They want to see what you think. That's what they're looking to get. And and Tom was like, you got to be kidding me, you know, in his own way, you know, like you got to be kidding me. He took him a while to I think, trust me that I was telling the truth as I liaison this information and encourage him to do it. But he did it and and it and it held true all the way through.

And so that that credit goes to the members of a diynat.

You know, they went out and they found that the people they wanted the best people that they could get, and they empower them to build it. And now they've got they've got those products out there, which you know is a testament to them and their commitments.

So it's it's interesting. I think that's like really good advice for any membership or any Greens committee is is letting like you know, when when you get to a planning stage in an architect putting together plans, like you know, let them put everything they want to do out there. Yeah, because like they might have something that's spectacular that they hold back on because they're afraid. But like letting them

Sure, and and you have to do that too from an infrastructure structural standpoint, because the art won't manifest completely if it doesn't function properly. And you know, that's what people run into is they have to set budget before they even start, right, And we face that at the beginning, like, hey, we're only going to spend this much on the project.

Well okay, but our philosophy was we're going to tell the membership what it costs to do it right right.

And it happened to be more than double on that project, and everybody was concerned and we talked about it, but we all agreed that hey, let's let's give them the full project and let them say no. And we gave them the project, we gave them the backup and they said, yes, we built it and it worked. So you know, I mean, if you're fortunate enough to be able to take the time to do it that way, that's that's the way

How's maintenance and golf course, like just the overall philosophy and trends. Yeah, changed in the last fifteen years for the industry.

You know, that's a good question. They've definitely continue to progress, and I would say most of it has been around the development a lot of the new grasses that guys are using, whether it's warm season or cool season grasses. Everybody's using modern you know, varieties and species that happen to be high organic matter producers. Right, so we're all trying to get the firmest, fastest product that we can get.

Yeah.

Right, that's a little different, Right, That's that's definitely different. And and uh, but we're trying to do that with these grasses that are inclined to get there. But what people don't see is what what happens under the under the canopy, under the surface, and and uh, inadvertently it requires a lot of maintenance that people haven't really counted on. So that's that's been a change, you know, coming up

And really what it.

Comes down to is it's funny, is that it's really about the fundamental principles of cultivation and soil modification and or drainage. Right, You've got to have a draining profile. You can have heavy soils that hold water. You got to remove the organic matter. If you do all that, you can use the least amount of water. You can keep it firm. You can do all these things. And you know, as painful as that is to take a golf course out of play and execute that, it's critical in my opinion.

With the new courses, you get the new greens and they don't have any like Thatch in them. Right, what's like, what's the best year to play like, because I know, like no Thatch, people will be like it's way too firm, right, is it like year or two when they're just perfect?

You know what with these newer grasses, like we have double O seven creeping bancrafts on our greens here Madonna, And yeah, it's it's literally end of the second year beginning in the third year when we need to.

Now start removing it.

So somewhere in that second year start of the third you've got the right amount. And if you don't get on it, then in terms of the management of that profile, it'll get away from you quick. So it comes on a lot faster than it may have in the past, but you also have to stay from a management perspective equally as on.

Top of it as quick as it comes on you.

Yes, I played a couple courses last year, the Loop and then Sand Valley first year, and you know, the heats are really firm, and like, yeah, I love the firm I mean I kind of like it. I kind of like playing new courses because it brings a whole

That's right.

Yeah, it's a it's cool. How do how do you go about managing three courses? You? I mean, not many superintendents have as big of an operation as you. You know, what's the difference between being you know, superintendent at you know, Billy Bob Country Club and uh, you know, having a team and having to manage three Like how much time do you spend across them?

Yeah, so you said it starts with the team.

Really, you know, you've got to have a team of individuals, both both at the top level of your management in terms of your course superintendents and your assistance and then

I mean, we place a real big premium.

On communication here and you know, if you look through our shop, I have, you know, things all over the wall that talk about, like, you know, fundamental communication and talking as frequently as possible. And it's a major part of our day just just to have that radio blaring back and forth, even if you're just sending information back

And then you know, obviously, I mean you've got to have.

The resources and the support of the club, and you've got to have real specific goals for what you're trying to accomplish, and that has everything to do with the customer, right, So I mean, you know, you and I might like really firm, fast conditions, but the media members may like to them that might be something different, and you've got to have a clear picture of that to set those goals right. But you know, here at Medina, we are fortunate to have I'm fortunate to be the leader of

Me out of it. Of the seven of the seven, five of them.

Were interns in our program that have come back to work their way up. I mean, I'm really proud that they get that kind of experience as a student. They see a place where they can grow and and and learn a lot of stuff and obviously work at a great place. They come back, they work hard, and then we've had guys graduate on out of our program and various parts of the country now at top facilities. So

I mean, it's cool because they get you give them advice to grow and you know eventually you hope they grow out. That's right, I mean is what every manager should want. And it's kind of you know, DONK has a similar internship program with Renaissance, where you know they have the internship program. You can look and you see all these new young architects are you know, come from their corn Crenshaw And it's really it's it's internships. It's

Yeah, it's funny you say that because we have a lot of Coach K things on the wall. You know, my mentor Sean Emerson a Desert Mountain, He's a he's a fiery guy and I love working for him because of that. But he would call himself the Bobby Knight golf of course superintendents, and I always used to tell him, one day, I'm going to be the.

Coach K because Coach.

K worked for Bobby Knight and both army guys.

Yeah and and and uh.

Coach K I think has a few more national championships than Bobby Knight, So I like to rub that into Sean, but I don't think I have more than him. But it was always fun to to just kind of smack talk like that.

Yeah, curious, So National Championships, good segue. Yeah, you've hosted pg A. You aren't here for that Ryder Cup and then you'll have the BMW and two years right, so Ryder Cup. I mean that had to be.

Once in a lifetime experience. It was unbelievable.

I was out here, yeah, walking in here on on the course, Yeah, just parking lot.

Yeah, I tell you what I mean, from the day I was hired until the day after the Ryder Cup, how long.

Before the Ryder Cup?

For five years?

Five years, five years, and every day for five years, Andy, all I thought about was that week. I mean, there wasn't a single day that I didn't come out on this property and think about that week, you know. I mean it was one hundred. I mean, that was the main draw. That's what I wanted to do with a goal of mine, to do something like that, and and uh, I tell you it was.

It was.

It was quite a humbling.

Experience driving up the eighteenth Fairway on Sunday when we prepped our last hole and then driving the course the next morning was.

Like, you know, I did, you know, it was in just a weird place.

You know that five years of time lived lived to try to successfully lead the team through that, and we had accomplished it with something else.

But you were you were one of the few Americans that had a good feeling after that Rider Cup.

That's true. That's true.

And I had so many guys from Europe and other volunteers here, you know, wanting to console me that afternoon, and I was like trying to act sad, but at the same time, I mean, I was just so happy that that Madonna was successful.

I mean, that was that was what my goal was, and that was what I was.

Here to do, was to ensure that that golf course in this club showed well and that our members were proud and and that was first and foremost, and we accomplished that.

The US opens kind of the only thing that comes close to the spectacle of a Ryder Cup in terms of like years of preparation was there. There had to be, you know, so every Ryder Cup because it was like because of the alternating schedule, I mean for four years, right, You're essentially like the PGA is sole focused. Yeah, I mean, there's it's a big deal for them. So how often would you communicate?

And you know, you know I started talking with Carrie Egg of PGA when the Royder couples at Aalhola and did you go down to that?

I did? I did.

I went down there, you know a number of times to see the buildout and down during the event.

But Carrie, Carrie and his.

Team was on site literally the winter after that, walking the site, started to lay out the design of of the of the of the production, if you will, and so you know, there was a lot of talk and then and then it really heated up when the captain was selected. So that was two years, you know, just under two years prior to the event, and that's when the talks got a little bit more specific. The plans were all laid out in terms of of uh portorate, hospitality.

Like what's the goal?

Yeah, so what what was the goal for that ryer?

Like what was like kind of how do they want the course, like what you know, did they talk about like what would you know be Bennett?

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's so so Pauli's inger at Valhalla. He was like the first American in a long time, American captain in a long time to.

Have some influence and do some things.

So you know, they they mowed some rough short in some landing zones and you know, cut down a tree limb that was in the way of jab Holmes, and you know, they did a few things where he was, you know, as as opposed to previous guys that hadn't really done anything so show off to play and coach.

So Davis, you know, kind of coming off that, I mean, and he was in tune to hey, I'm going to have some influence.

So, you know, Carrie and Davis and I sat down and they both were in agreement that they wanted short rough or they thought they wanted short rouff, and they wanted fast green.

So that's where it all started.

So that following summer, in the summer of eleven, I said okay, and I went out and we developed a plan. The team and I and the superintendent of course Stree at the time was a guy by the name of Ross Lobster who we have a long history and had worked together, and I had brought him here to be a part of that because you know, we had you know, I had a ton of confidence in him, and he was on that on that project, and he's now at

We we did.

Davis came out that summer and I showed him over up to it and he's like, yeah, you know, I think this is kind of it's different, but let's go with it. And then as we were getting closer to twenty twelve. He said, you know, I don't know, I'm kind of not sure about it. And I said, well, from our perspective, it's better to be short and have you say, you know, two three weeks out, let's grow it up then the other way around.

Yeah, And the club was on board, and so that members loved it. Probably the easiest of course three's I ever met.

Yeah, right, it was. I mean it was you know, you can miss a fair way and you had a you know for a higher handicaper. It was a great lie.

Yeah, you know, so we worked hard at that and got that all cut in and we started just the Greens had just been built in twentyd and nine to ten, and so they were maturing, like we were talking about, and we were running a lot of playthroughom we had a lot of rain and heat and and you know, so it was it was struggle. We struggled to get

We just Davis wanted too easy, too hard and you know, one in the middle kind of thing. So he had like a right and we ended those over to Carrie Hag who in the end is you know, the final decision maker on all that, and he edited a few of them right off the bat, like, you guys are nuts, way too hard not doing this, and it was his call, and he ultimately.

So way too hard in the sense of like they wanted you know, excitement, Yeah, they.

Want excitement, and they were a little too close to slopes.

And you know, just you know, you know, he made a comment like you guys are trying to get me fired, but these are what you know, and we just laughed. But you know, in the end, those decisions were carries, and you know, he, like I said, he used the ones that he wanted to use. And people talk about Sunday seventeen on Sunday, and you know, being on the road, it was on the rights right, yeah, back right, and and you know, like why Davis put the pin there?

And first of all, I don't know if Davis and Carrie had a conversation said do that or not.

You know, maybe they did that wasn't you know, I was executing the management of the of the grounds by that point.

I wasn't involved in whole location.

It's amazing how everybody looks at that pin when you could there's a bunch of others, Like no one would ever pick out the fourth whole pen, like it could have been the worst one of all of them for like the team. But no one ever would zoom in on the fourthol because it's the fourth all. Everybody might have lost the fourth all I know. But because they have said that end, somebody zooms in on the seventeen.

Well, I'm with you, you know, I mean, historically the United States had been weakest in the first two days of the event, the fourth Wall and the foursomes, and Davis created a strategy and we had a golf course set up that he handed the team a four point lead going into their strongest event. Yeah, and then they just got beat. So whole locations are not you know, they got out played that day.

Yeah, and you were just you were about to pop up in the champagne. Yeah, I was, yeah, Yeah, what'd you do like the night after you're done?

Tet like, oh oh that, you know what, I'll never forget that, because you know what a family goes through, you know, if you're married. My young daughters at the time, I mean, what they went through to support Meetia. To be able to do that was a lot and they gave up a ton of time and a lot of things in life for me to be so dedicated, and uh, you know, I was fortunate to spend that night with them and and uh we you know, after we had a little pizza party down here and volunteers and people

Deal over there. But we spent our evening just kind of around town.

I mean, they were they were partied up that you're a party up there till one or two in the morning, and we were up there just kind.

Of walking around being a part of it all.

And the next morning, I mean literally the next morning is seven m Ryan Schneider was here, Wadsworth was here, We had equipment stage. The next morning we took about seventy trees out and Brian and Eric Iverson had bulldozed two greens and already rough shaped him out by the end of the day on Monday, So I mean we really we had no time to.

Think too much. Yeah, we were onto the next thing, you know, and fortunate to be able to do that.

Were there any players that were like particularly interested, like ask you more questions than other one?

Yeah, Jason Dufter, he was, he was, he was great. Well, a number of them came out early with Davis and played a practice round and that was really cool for me. Davis asked me to come along and just ride with them, and so I would.

I would go out into the landing zone and see how far they were hitting, you know, just making sure everything was good out there, you know, get up to the green watch him hit in and I I went all eighteen holes with him. We talked green speeds, different things, and that was a lot of fun. But Jason Duffner

Was he really Uh you wouldn't You wouldn't expect Duffner to be that calculating and that I feel like it would be like a go with the flow guy.

He had all kinds of questions and it was interesting, and uh, I wonder.

If he asked that for everybody every event.

I don't know, I don't know he you know, he didn't say much. He just asked a question, we told the answer, he asked another one.

But you know, it was uh, yeah, it was it was really interesting, and I mean all all the guys on both teams were were just fantastic to our team and and really gave us, you know, real big nods and support and recognition through that event, which you know they certainly didn't to do by any means, and we feel real fortunate blessed that they did. So, you know, it was just kind of a solidification of a job well done to have the players say good things.

What do you what do you think they would want to do different with the course set up if they could do it all over again.

Man, it's a good question, you know, I'd have to ask them because they.

Were loving it obviously, and then all of a sudden it just like flipped on.

I think that was just a golf thing you could set to stack everything in your favor and the other team can win, you know sports.

Yeah, you know, they liked the fact that they could hit it, They could hit it, use their length and hit it a long way and not get themselves in too much trouble.

So, I mean they saw the same thing at Hazel team with like you know that that place had like no rough middle pins.

It was great.

When Justin Rose was complaining about right, like too easy, Yeah, exactly, but I can understand that. How's so you got PGA here like or not pg BMW Yeah yeah, kind of got to be starting to get ready for that now.

We are were you know, it really kicked in when we went and spent some time with Connor Healy and the team up at.

Conway Farms and.

There Connor is a great guy. He ran up fantastic got place. It's just immaculate. His tournament uh execution was was superb, and so I was really fortunate he's and he went out of his way to to He and Paul Paul Vermulan from the PGA Tour went out of their way to make the place successful to me and make you know, give me insight into whatever it is that that I needed to see and that I was interested in seeing.

So but but to your point, it just.

Got got the juices flowing a little bit, you know, tournament mode back. And it's nice to really nice to be there with the grand stands up and feel that atmosphere and I look forward to it. And for the guys that are on our team now that weren't here to run the Ryder Cup, I really look forward to going through an event with them, because that's you know, the whole journey, the lead up to it is really you know, working together to get there is really what

They go by like this. Yeah, it's like a wedding.

Yeah, I was just going to compare that.

I feel like, so, you know, your your.

Head spinning, you after, you like, hey I talked that guy, did do this? You know, you can't remember, But that's that's kind of what it's like. But in the end, if you're prepared, it all works out.

Yeah, it's I don't know if I was prepared for my wedding that worked out, right, That's right. That's it's it's interesting. It's a it'll be it'll be a little bit different of a of a setup. It'll be a little a little tougher. But the great thing about number three, there's so much space for infrastructure, right that was there's no you can put at randstand and it's not a bad right And I mean, like eighteen at a count kept banked it off the back.

Yeah, no kidding.

But the one nice thing is it's up how close do they do you try and push those grand stands up, you know, because you want the fans as close as you can, but right, you don't want to affect the integrity of the tournament.

Yeah.

You know what was interesting is is uh Kerry said something to me when we were doing the Ryder couples that you know, he wanted wide ropes and wide porters because the further he could spread it out, the more people could see. Yeah, as opposed to pulling it tight, you know with those sized crowds.

Yeah, well that and so few golfers.

So few golfers exactly. And so you know, I have yet to see the layout from the Western Golf Association and the folks at the PGA Tour with regards to what we're going to do.

So I don't know. Looking at what they did at Conway, they had it. They had it. Really.

Our number eighteen doesn't lend itself because of the elevated green to get too close like they did there. We got we gotta be a little further back. Seventeen has a natural amphitheater. Anyway, I think that, you know, for the Ryder Cup, we use that.

Hope, I hope they do that. Again, but you know, we'll see what they come up with.

I know that for the Ryder Cup, we built forty three acres of stuff, so back in the house, front of the house, forty three acres.

Was all part of that infrastructure.

And I think the estimate for the BMW is going to be somewhere in the neighborhood of fifteen. So it's about really one third the size of what the Ryder Cup was.

Any like weird little thing go wrong during the Ryder Cup, we like, like, did you have any like many disasters that no one would know about, you know, like like like some machine broker.

So every superintendent's worst nightmare was about ten days before the event, we had a hydraulic league right up the center of three fair on a fairway.

Unit, and we were like, we all just kind of standing there, I mean, because we had taken every precaution to not have that happen, and it happened, and.

There was and so I'm thinking, you know, what are we going to do about this?

So we've got you know, basically poe event fairways out there, you know, predominantly bent, but there's enough poe in them that they're not pure bent. So siding it with bent would have been a sore thumb.

You know, you would have seen it. So we thought about it.

And the guy that worked for us, his name sal Garcia, and he's just a master craftsman, and we've been working together for twenty some years. He's gone with me from site to site. But we went to the forward te on number four that had a very similar turf stand, stripped it completely, patched that hydraulically.

Right up the gut, and then sided that tea over with bent.

They weren't going to use it for the event, and nobody looks at the four D T and so he put it in there and he threaded it in there like like as good as you could possibly do it. No, And I mean, you know, we could see it, but I didn't know if anybody else was going to see it.

Man, the golf course is fantastic, It's immaculate. Congratulations blah blah blah. And I'm thinking they're never going to see it. They're never going to know. Nobody's gonna know, and nobody did, you know? So that was that was you know, yeah, that was enough last minute to get your heart in your throat.

But my wedding day, I cut my next shaving. You did, and uh, just a tiny one. I never cut myself shaving ever in my life before that moment, and uh yeah, I didn't have that whatever that kit thing is because I've never cut myself shaving. And I had a white shirt and it like some of it got on the collar because it like started bleeding again. I mean I freaked out, but like I was in there with like a toothbrush, like you know, but eventually it came out.

Good.

Yeah, it's like the same kind of same thing, sure, just things that go wrong. So if you were going to make one changed, I mean, you got two relatively new golf courses and three what would you make one if you could make one change? Out here. You know, you're putting on your You're the bizarre of Medina. All the members answer to you. I see, what would you do from a golf course perspective?

You know there there I would, I would make some adjustments to some of the bunkering on course three and and we're gonna we're gonna replace the sand and we're gonna do with some slight regrading just from sand build up prior to the BMW. But there were some bunkers that that were built when the course was heavily treated. And we've taken fourteen hundred trees off that golf course, and since we've been here and and now you have some bunker complexes that they still work. You know, for

Be respectful, uh, you know, just to shift them out.

I I'd blend. I'd blend the tie ins out. You know, you've got some real steep toads of toads of slope on the backsides. I'd fade those, and I'd push the bunkers in play a little bit more, you know, bring the fairway a little bit more into them. Just from the experience that that I've been fortunate to have watching Tom and Brian Eric do that stuff and then and then get to really direct a lot of it on two and so forth. You know, I have the confidence

Probably what I would do.

Confidence at half the battle.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

It's just like golf. It's right, you're not confident, you're not a good shot.

True, very true.

You're not confident you're probably bad bad bunker.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

There's a couple of them out there that I would love to get the green light on them.

Yeah, it's it seems like everybody loves the mowing lines right into bunkers.

Yeah.

Is there any thought of ever trying to get some of that on three man?

You know, I would love to see that. I think that, Uh, if you if you embarked on that, however, you have to change it. You got to do it everywhere. The problem is is if you did that.

And what I mean, I don't mean every single hole, but what I mean is every every hole would have to be evaluated and every bunker would have to be shifted to make it work. Because right now they're they're they're they're they're shaped and built into the fairway in ways that wouldn't lend itself to make it look natural.

Yeah, and so we'd have to shift a big project.

It'd be a big project.

It'd be there'd be bulldozers, Mini x's and you know, some some grading would definitely need to happen, but it'd be good. I think that course would would would tough enough that way. You know, it's an interest. It's just a it's an interesting golf course. It's so long, it's so penal. If you get offline, you.

Don't drive it well, you toast.

Yeah, it's like going fifteen rounds with a heavy way, you know, for you know, thirteen fourteen handicapper like myself.

It's like man breaking ninety is like I'm buying the beers, you know what I mean. Because it's just a long day, and you.

Know, I hadn't played it in a while, and I played it after my honeymoon so I hadn't touched the club. It was the first round out after my honey, I think I hadn't touched a club in like sixteen days. And like I started out okay, I hit pretty good, but that like kind of lost my tempo and like it was like for like five holes like I just got I got like was getting bludgeoned over the.

Head, right exactly.

It's like I mean it it is like you can't you can't fake it out there, and that's why it's a championship of course. Like nobody can slap it around and shoot a good score on that golf course, but it could. I mean, the land is unbelievable over there, and the oaks are so beautiful because they got so many big oaks, right, you can see them more now, Yeah.

I mean, you know, the topography gets really really good on holes like twelve. I mean you know what I mean is that the power four that goes, Yeah, that's sweeping side fairway.

I mean you know that's you hear about Augusta people have never been, and then you go and you're like, wow, they're right. You can't appreciate the topography unless you're there. Twelve has that kind of size.

What was that green before the changes like.

It was pretty much well, it was about two thirds of size. It was pretty much back to front. It was a little this way with a.

Little bit towards towards the lake. But the approach, the whole right side of the green was all rough. So we and it was and it had a little hump in it. So we cut that hump out, smoothed it out, brought that fairway around the side, and then put some some movement into it.

And it's got this really right now.

It's got this really nice sweale that runs off the back that visually looks like, you know, disaster, but knowing, knowing how it plays the mist, there is actually that pins back there.

It's long because it'll stay up. It will run through that and stay.

Disaster on the front part of the green. That putt is brutal going up, Yeah it is. I had it the last time I played it. I thought I hit a really good shot and it grabbed and came back down that ridge and it's not a good spot to be yeah at all. That's a it's a beautiful golf a yeah.

And and from there it continues to get interesting with fourteen's you know, got this rolling, rolling shoot through those trees, and then sixteen, which is such a fantastic golfl.

Now it's got the length back, it's it's for the top level players. It's really fantastic.

How do you know? I imagine and I saw the members just end up in that bottom part so much like that's got to be just a huge traffic area for you. If it is, how do you and you guys get so many rounds to three? I mean it's booked, right, How do you manage areas like that? Like? Do you have a strategy towards them? Yeah?

So from a from a purely maintenance standpoint, what we do is, rather than painting ground under repair with white paint, we tack rope down on the ground and circle it as if it were paint in a white rope, put a sign on their ground under repair, and we put drop areas off of the intermediate cut and we and we do that for outings on Mondays, and do it for like most heavy active guest play days Monday through Thursday.

Lie to hit that that pitch back up that hill, and it saves on dibbots. So that's how we do it.

From a maintenance standpoint, we've looked and we've tried to put a little bit of movement in there to move balls away.

And the water probably sits down there a little bit more too, which is when.

We did the Greens project.

What we did to firm that bottom up was we excavated that that entire bottom area out six inches, capped it with sand, and put some surface drainage in it so it.

Stays a little firmer.

But we looked at closing the fairway off and making it rough, and this was all, yeah, these are all ideas pitched at Reese, you know, putting a bunker right in there, and and Reese just held firm like, hey, Curtis, you got to come up with a way to build these divots and get them to grow, because I don't want to change it. And I'm glad that was his position because I think that the holes better that way.

And watch the balls roll back down to your feet that way. That's right, So golf, Yeah, I can't get rid of that.

Yeah, that's right.

It's all right. We do this overrated underrated segment.

Okay, So you got pick.

So we're gonna go from the way MEDYNA members perceive the course, okay, and we're going to go through each of the courses overrated under eight and you have to pick. So course number one the.

Way from the perspective of the MEDYNA members the greater.

Yeah, the average mind of MEDYNA member underrated. Yeah, I heard it. People don't understand those greens.

Right, Yeah, you hear some of that. These days.

You know, it's still busy, they're still playing it. We got plenty of guest rounds. But you know, there's there's a few greens out there that I think we're we're I think are personally, I think are great, but they challenge people and they're not.

That design is unique.

It fits the lay of the land, it fits the sight, but it's different, and I think that's what is the hardest thing for them to ax up.

Is that. Yeah, it's amazing how yeah, changes in just any sure aspect of society is like frightening for people.

And you know, this is a tough This is a tough segment for me because you know, having built all these three, they're like my you know, you know what I mean, Like you know, I feel like I a part of me is you know, they're like my kids in a lot of ways, you know. So I mean it's picking one kid over the other.

I had time out. I think he said, you might have said overrated to everything I said, just because that's his personality.

Well, I definitely think that that.

In the last twelve months, let's just say, uh, of course one has gotten some unaccurate criticism, and I think that it's underrated.

I bet if you explain some of those screens, I bet there's some bumps that people could play off of.

That's right.

It's hard for its. Yeah, once you do it once though, that you see that happens, Like I think there needs to be like a guide or something sometimes, you.

Know, and we've got there's a lot of short grass, so you know, you've got to learn to kind of bump and run and play a tight pitch.

And that's not typical either, you know. And so I think that you know, when Tom, when I played with Tom on opening day.

He chipped all over that golf course with the seven irons all day long, hits, yeah, and very effectively, you know.

And I was wondering, is he making a point with this?

Is that what he's trying to like get this across to those of us playing with him, This is how you should do it.

But hey, you know, the more the more I hear some of the things people don't like, the more I think they all approach that approach it with that strategy a little more.

So I was I played with him, and I was hitting a. I had a shot and I was short and he and he looked and he goes, you hit a loblunch here, and I go yeah, he goes, you don't even think. I'm like, yeah, this is this is what I would say ninety percent of like good amateur player, like tournament amateur players would hit this shot. He goes, you would never hit like an eight iron. So like I hit that, and I hit an eight iron and I was like, wow, that's really easy. And like I've

Yeah, you know, No, he's got it down there, that's for sure.

Yeah. It's people just need to experiment more.

Yeah, definitely, So of course too, you know, that's a hard one to you know, it might be too soon. It might be too soon.

I think you feel like there's a buzz.

There's definitely a buzz, you know, the the the t sheet is filling up as the summer is going on every month to a higher level. We haven't had anybody not in saying they don't like.

Something about it. I played it a couple of times myself. I love playing it's.

I don't know, we'll have to see, you know, I mean it's it's It's really been a great compliment to the other two and that's what it was intended to be. And that's that makes the Dina members portfolio just I think stand apart.

But in terms of a golf course at Court golf Course, we need a little more time.

But what about that, of course, like are you most proud of since it's the most recent you know, rebuild, renovate, restoration.

Really well, you know I I I'm most proud of how we were able to.

To brighten the original shaping that came out in a way that looked like looked looked natural, that that we were able to to to modernize things we're applicable, brighten and restore things we're applicable, and make it look like it's been there for a while and not not. It doesn't look like we moved dirt to do anything and that was the goal. And and you know, I'm really proud of that.

Yeah, it's it's cool. I love that place than you. It's uh, it's like more more, need more of that, especially at Like I mean, I feel like more Chicago courses should be like that because like I always say this to clubs and like you're actually one of the clubs that can do the like the hard golf because I always say to like, you know people at clubs. Is like all right, so like you're in Chicago, Like why are you trying to be the hardest golf course

Yeah, for sure that was what we were shooting for. That's good to hear you say that. Yeah, it's cool.

I recommend anybody that gets the chance to fight too. It's it's fun. Yeah, I heard a lot of buzz. I was I was really skeptical. I'm not the biggest Reese fan, Yeah, and I was. I was skeptical. But then I played, I saw it, I was like, wow, that was really good.

Yeah, you know, Reese.

What Reese needs to be credited for on that project, for sure, among other things, is is is.

The fact that you know, he he let us, he let it happen.

He you know, he showed up, and and when when we started doing stuff and and and working that stuff, the more the more different it got, the weirder it got, the the further away from what he had done before it got, the more excited he got, the more he encouraged it to keep going.

Yeah, and I mean it was fantastic. You know. I was I wasn't sure how he was going to embrace this, this approach that was going to happen, and when we really we had talked about it, but when we started doing it, I wasn't sure how much he was going to do that. And he absolutely did. I mean he was.

He got so excited that he kept I mean, we had a plan in terms of his number of visits and stuff like that, and like he blew that budget because he just kept wanting to come back, you know, and he liked it so much. So I give him a ton of credit for his you know, his just his.

Ability to see to see it differently and to put it on the ground.

That's what people need to do with number one.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, embrace the change, embrace the difference.

That's right. That's exactly right.

All right, last one, number three?

All right, So we talked about it being long and challenging, got to drive the ball straight. So I but I'm going to say underrated, and I and I'm gonna say it from a perspective of a DYNA member, because it's well from a DINA members perspective, it's probably it's it might be a bit overrated, just switched. I just my perspective, what's one thing I forgot the so so from my perspective,

Yeah, I bet a lot of people play the wrong tees right.

And and I and from a DIYNA members perspective, you know, they put you know, and it and and and in their defense, it's always been the one that that was the flagship.

It's got to be the hard course, Yeah, it was. It was the flagship for them. It it holds all the tournaments to history.

So it's you know, from there, from their standpoint, you know, it's they I think they overrated a bit because that was the one that was always the one that was kind of carrying the torch pull.

Pulling the rest of the of the club along. And and now the club's much different.

Than it was ten years ago, and you know, maybe that perspective from there will change for them.

Yeah. I think I think it's okay though, Like I wrote about Olympia Fields last year and like you know, going there and playing like you're playing hard golf course. Yeah, and the hard is okay. Like if I was a member, I play three here probably like two times out of ten, maybe once out of ten. I you know, I don't need to go get my ass kicked for like five hours that often. But it's good to go do it every once in a while, right, right, right, But that's

Yeah, you know, right.

But but like the complain of it's long and hard, it's like, well, it's a PGA Championship golf course.

Yeah, yeah, I like the answer to that is yeah, you're right.

You know what it is supposed to be exactly, it's yeah. So but thanks for coming on this fun.

Yeah, it was a blast.

I really appreciate it, and uh, love of work you're doing and and really appreciate your you know, bringing the different sides of the industry out.

To the to the to the world of golf and and keep it up. Man, really appreciate it.

It's interesting. I get interested that I want to know as much as I know I can know.

You know, that's awesome, man, I appreciate it. Thank you.