Welcome back to another edition of the Fridagg Podcast. Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over at b Draddy. B Dratty makes some of the finest golf clothing on the market, and they have a great special running right now. If you spend one hundred dollars in there on their website, bdratty dot com, you'll get a free bonus mystery polo from the Draty Vault. So this is a neat little promotion. You don't know what you're gonna get. I think we're all stuck in our own
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Tour events during his Hall of Fame career. We talk about his career Brighton's new style of play, what he loved most about working in the US Open broadcast with Fox, and much more.
I missed a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Friday Frida egg Frida egg brid egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
I wanted to ask you you had a lot of huge moments in your career, obviously your two US Open wins, But I'm curious where the closing eagle to win the NCAA title as a freshman ranks in your kind of golf memories.
You know, it's it's it's it's a good question, and it's one that I always answer when you talk about fortunate enough to have some highlights. I put that in there because highlights just aren't professional highlights. Highlights are at each stage in your career, and that highlight propelled you or gave you confidence to go forward. And certainly that was huge for me personally as a freshman for Wake Forest as their first NCAA golf championship. For my teammates
for my coach. You know, it was just huge and then the shot itself hit a one iron to eight or ten feet and making the putt. I was just trying to two putt. They went in. But you know it's just yeah, it was it's it's in my top, you know, three or four Be honest with you, because it was a one that you know what, what pops up in your memory back that that's one of them that does.
Yeah, I imagined you can probably vividly remember all the details of that, that one iron. And you know, for younger listeners, this isn't your driving one iron, this is a butter knife.
This is this is one you could cook a file, you could cut a flay with. Yes, go to your next time you go away. I don't know if you could even fond a one iron anymore. I don't know if a youngster went to see what a one iron McGregor, Spaulding Wilson one iron used to look like, gosh, where would you go to look for something like that other than your your granddaddy's garage? You know, I don't know, but uh, you know, we the blades were smaller, they
were all forged. They were you had to hit them, you know, the closer to the housal, the more solid. But we did it. I mean it was something you didn't you didn't know any better. And you know, quite frankly, the middle and short irons were when you hit it solid there was with the softer old ballotta ball. It was like butter. It was so solid and so had such a sound, soft sound, and it flew so nicely. But things have changed in all aspects of that sound and feel and look than yesterday.
Yeah, speaking of change, how being a young player in tour on tour in the late seventies and eighties, how is it? How was that different than the young players today?
Oh? You know what I I'm first going to say in the course of this conversation. I never I never ever look at the youngsters today and say, gosh, it was better in my day, or I never want to be the the old jealous you know, crudgeon, that was better in my day. I think that it's all pretty much the same. You're out there to you know, as a youngster, you get on tour and first of all, you happy to be there. It was a dream. And now let's go forward from here and you keep your
nose to the grindstone. You work, you hit out balls and balls and balls every single day. You progress slowly. Sometimes you don't think you progress, but you do, and then you then you might you know back in the day it was the top sixty. But anyway, you just you competitively, keep grinding and and trying to compete against the best there is and and so from that standpoint, it's all the same. You're trying to be the best you can be. You all have similar backgrounds in that
you know, it came up in the game. You progressed, You enjoyed winning, but you knew there's a lot of work and more likely and not you you loved it more than the next guy. You competed harder, You worked harder than the next guy, and it showed. And so now you know, if you work hard on tour that I should improve. Some do, some don't. I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of variables here that to be successful on tour that you have to have. You know, you have to be an athletic type of individual.
Now we've had our exceptions, but most in the most cases, you're a pretty good damn good athlete. Uh, you have to be stubborn. You know, you have to have a work ethic, you know, all these things that you have to love to compete, and you have to be able to You have to be able to accept the the failure on the stage and be able to get up the next day and look forward to going to the golf course again and all those things. So my answer to your simple questions, I think it's all pretty much
the same as all competition at a young age. Yeah.
I've talked to Jeff Ogilvie a couple of times, and he's obviously played an era a little bit later than yours, but one with huge change with obviously track Man, and he talks. One thing he talked about was the idea of everybody used to be searching for something and you'd get to the range on a weekly basis and somebody would say, oh, I think I figured it out. And with the advent or track Man, it's it's not really a secret anymore. Everybody's got to figure it out every day.
Well, you know, I track Man gives you more knowledge, more detail of what's really happening. But you figured it out as a player. You knew what worked in a feel or what you thought was a movement on the backswing or down swing. You knew that feel. When I felt that, say on the start of my down I hit the ball better. So you tried to emulate that and repeat that. Now that you can do that in a daily in a particular day, and then when you go to bed, it never seems to be there the
next morning. Yes, so you have to try to find that the next morning, and it might be a little bit different feel, it might be, but you get it. You get what I'm saying is that we had our own track man, within our own feel. And you have to go back to the clubs and balls were different. So I think you could feel the impact a little bit better because a mishit just off center. You could feel it because the blades were such a smaller had
such a smaller sweet spot. They were so much smaller, and the balls were softer, so you could feel where they were on the face. And so you had your own track man, and you kind of knew your own strength and weaknesses. Hopefully you did in your swing, and you knew how to adjust. And it was all about adjusting. And those who could do that more better than others were more successful.
Did you through your career have like a certain feel that you were always trying to trying to get in when you were swinging and playing your best, you you were getting that specific feel and if so, what was it?
Yes? I did. Again, we were We were mostly all field players. There were a few mechanical type players, but again this was before it got so mechanical and teachers changed and became way too mechanical with young kids, and that's another story for another day. But yeah, I had feels, but they changed throughout a career because your body changes throughout a career and your swing changes, so that in itself is an adjustment, not every daily adjustment, but it
just you know, from from time to time. Early on, I was a big swinger, very upright, stronger griped, launched it for for in the day, so the feel was more movement from the body from the ground up to create the speed that I wanted. I was. I was reasonably accurate in those days doing that, and I didn't know it at tom but I had a good swing. I mean, my swing was online so and I didn't know anything about that stuff when I was in college.
I just launched it and it went straight but and and but as you get on tour, I tried to change my swing to be more consistent. I wanted to be able to compete every day, even those days you didn't feel very well or someone was out of sorts, I still wanted to be able to get it around the golf course. So I throttled back just a little bit. I tried to tighten up a little bit. And so
you so your feels changed. So my my my feel in those days when I went through this change, starting back in the early eighties, was you know, my grip got a little weaker. You know, I kind of held on almost like a block, and uh, I guess it was somewhat of a block uh through impact, But with the weak grip, it never went left. And my key looking back on it now, was that I never ever worried about the ball going left. So I basically had
eliminated one side of the golf course. And you know, when I missed, it went to the right, and so I knew that and therefore I could drive it straight. I'd ironed it pretty well. But more than anything else, I eliminated one side of the golf course.
Yes, one of my favorite sayings faders eat fil a and hookers eat hamburger.
Well, you know it's uh when you do hook and I don't know, I don't know the last guy that hit sweeping hooks or hooks. First of all, the clubs don't allow it. The balls really don't allow it. The spinning sideways. But you know when you when you in the day, if you hit a if you hit a big draw. You know, the last guy I remember was uh sheesus what was his name? Back in Arnolds? Anyway, they used to hit draws because they released it and they wanted to get maximum distance. But if you hit it,
if you released it perfectly, it drew okay. But what's the If you release it too much, it drew too much and the ball runs out. So you didn't want to do that. So the next thing you hold on a little bit and goes the right. So now you've got both sides of the golf courses going. And there was a guy that didn't neat filet Okay, when he's when he's going both ways, he's searching for that feel
and when it's on, it's good. Now think about that little that little soft hang on cut that first of all, it doesn't cut as much because of the angle of attack. As a hook, it comes down softer and more than likely because you're hanging on you never miss left. I mean you might miss left once in a while. And a guy I think of in modern times as a Jordan speed, he has it kind of blocked through the ball,
but he misses left once in a while. And I don't know why that are used to anyway, and I'm not picking on him, but just most of those guys have a little weaker grift that hold on don't miss left, and so therefore, you know it, it's kind of easy to control. You know, it listens a little better than that hook.
They say, yeah, yeah, I think I grew up playing a draw, and you're exactly right. And then one of the best things I did was I got my game to where I just never think about hitting the ball left and I hit a little fade. And my favorite thing is when you miss, when you miss right, and with a fade, it just sits immediately. You know, you hit that high right poofball. And then if you hit the hard hook, as soon as it hits the ground, you got fifteen. It misses fifteen two yards more or left.
Oh my gosh. You know, first of all, say you're hitting a five r and into a green and you hit a kind of a hard draw, it's going to run through the back left of the green every time. More than likely, if you hit it in the left center of the fairway, she's gonna run right on out of that fairway every time. So that cut doesn't And you know, when I was playing my best golf in the eighties, my I kind of hit a little straight ball,
a little tiny cut. But the shot I hated with a passion was that kind of little heey cut fade. But you know the difference it it may it stayed in the faraway every time I and I won some tournaments with that horrible shot that I hated, But I could find it every time in the fairway. Yeah.
Yeah, even though it's not your favorite shot, you find it. It might be twenty yards short, but you're playing from the fairway. I mean, you don't make a lot of bogies from the fairway.
Well, and there's a good comment which you meant it might be a little shorter, yes, but it is in the fairway. And remember in our day, we didn't have anybody that because of the equipment. You couldn't. You just didn't. You didn't hit it farther than anybody else. I never felt like I couldn't compete against anybody because they hit it a little bit farther than I did. Because nobody
launched it thirty or forty yards by you. The first guy that did that that ever came on the scene was John Daly, and those who when I was coming up, those who were maybe big six six launchers of the golf ball. You know, they weren't considered great players because they hit it so far. The balls spun so much, they didn't hit many fairways. And so that's how the game has changed.
A guy that would remind me of from your era, like Dan Pole? Would that be a guy that would fit that description.
You know, Dan Pole was a better strike of the ball than his career ever showed because of what we were talking about. He kind of hit a little drop fade every time he had a short swim baseball swing. He was a baseball player, very very fast hands, but kind of almost a little blocker if I remember correctly now, and so he drove the ball pretty well. I don't know if Dan was a great put or not. I don't remember, but Dan did a lot of TV when
he stopped playing. But Dan Poll, here's a stat where he won the driving distance and I think it was nineteen eighty eight. Don't hold me to these facts. Nineteen eighty eight he won the driving distance on tour and his distance was like two eighty seven or too eighty eight, and that was it. I but that changed for a distance, yeah a little bit.
I mean, if you're to eighty eight, your your bottom of the tour.
Now bottom of the tour. And with bryceon averages three p fifty last week, seventy sixty five yards difference. That's all because.
The shorter hitters in the eighties were two forty two fifty compared to to eighty.
Yeah. Well I was pretty much the middle of the field, very average, maybe maybe a smission below average. And I was like two fifty five or two fifty six. And you know I made my living with with four, five and six irons. I mean, seriously, you know a four forty four fifty park par four was a four or
five iron, maybe a six iron. All day long golf courses like Firestone, h Augusta was long in cases when it when it when it got cool in the spring, Pebble Beach, well, Pebble Beach went long, but there was some courses out there. I mean just there were certain golf courses. Mirefield Village in the spring when it was cool was a long golf course and it was four or five or six irons all day long, every day.
Uh to Bryson, you hit on obviously, he unbelievable performance. You know, goes mist and beyond the three fifty drives was the incredible putting.
You know what. I He's been the talk of every golf for the last really kind of a couple of two or three weeks, and especially after this week. You know, there's there's First of all, I think he's showing the world. Now I'm a titlest guy. Okay, I'm a titless ball guy. And I've always been very careful on, you know, saying talking about the ball because they don't they used to pay me, so you can't criticize the hand that feature.
But the point of the fact is he's showing the world of golf that it's just not all about the golf ball and the driver. Now it's a big part of it, trust me, a huge part of it, the majority part of it. But the part of the equation that has never gotten enough attention in this ball that goes so far is the ability of these kids and the speed that they create, okay, and the accuracy in which they hit it with the speed. I walked for Fox the last four years on the in the US Open.
I've seen it firsthand. I saw Dustin Johnson carry the three wood at arian Aaron Hill's three forty three point thirty something up the hill on the last hall of the Freewood one day. I mean, it's incredible stuff. But when you see what Bryson has done, He's gone from you know, a nice hitter, you know, a nice plenty of length to putting on muscle, gaining speed. But more so than anything else, Now I'm not a physicist, but it's the mass that he's moving. It's the forty pounds
that he's put on that I never knew about. But when you add masks and speed, the ball will go farther. It's not about flexibility more. It's not all about strength. It's about the mass and moving that mass and having the strength to support it. Now, some of you might have proved me wrong in what I just said, but it looks like that's what it is to me. And plus he's trying to hit it bloody hard every time,
but he's driving it. I saw it this morning. He's hitting sixty three percent of the fairways or something that's good on a on a normal for a normal person, seventy percent was very accurate on tour. And so he's proven all these people wrong that said it was just about the golf ball driver. It's about the athleticism of these players and the speed in which they create and he kind of marveling I do. Okay, he's a little different. Well,
we're all a little different. Okay, we're all type a different ego maniacs and very we're ego maniacs on tour, and we're also the most insecure individuals on the planet with our golf poings. So that if that isn't a contradition, but it's he he's kind of figured something out here. And don't think you might not have somebody else try the same thing in the next year or two or three, because it seems to work. My question, I have two questions with this. I'm rambling now, but I have two
questions with Bryce. One when you try to hit it so hard every time? How long would that last? Okay, now all it has to last is eight years, and then he'll blee be you know, maybe a twenty five time winner, thirty time winner and five majors, who knows what's going to be, what the future holds for him. But the other thing is, well, it is Will's body. Hold up, Oh, I know the short game. When you put on this mass and you change your body structure, do you change your feel? I don't know. I think
your feel is born within you. It's bred within you, so it might change a smidgeon. But some people will question that will it change is for you? I don't. I don't know the answer to that because my body never changed. But if it does, you'll have to contend with that. But you know, he's a smart enough guy. He'll he'll take care of every every stone will go will be unturned with Bryce, And trust me.
Yeah, I think you hit the accuracy is unbelievable. And I think you know, one of the things that gets lost a little bit with the distance debate is that.
Well, with accuracy, and with accuracy I always thought, now within control. But the harder you hit it the straighter, you should hit it with a driver because everything is straightened out. Okay, if you're in control. I you know, whenever you start to get manipulative and hit it's eighty percent or seventy five percent, that's when you your body doesn't react,
you're putting it in positions. But when you swing ninety ninety five percent, everything straightens out an impact, And if you have a good swing, a good grip, a swing that's on plane, it should go just the straightest it's ever going to go. And so yeah, as long as he's in control of the swing, he should drive it as straight as he used to. The only difference is the farther the ball goes. You know, with physics, the more it can go offline just with just the cheer
numbers of it. But he's really driving it pretty straight for as hard as he's hitting it.
Yeah, and to create that speed you have to be pretty fundamentally sound.
Oh yes, yes, yes. You can't do it with just upper body. You can't do it with just arms and hands. Everything's moving, you know. It starts in the ground up the weight shift to the left, the lower body, the upper middle tor so you know, it's just and he seems to be doing even that with himself. Remember he's a golf machine guy. He's a very very mechanical guy
in his swing. And I personally didn't know a guy that I shouldn't speak for him because it could be wrong, But a golf machine theorist is very mechanical, so therefore you're thinking about positions so much so I always wondered if you could swing as hard as you wanted to think about positions. But he seems to be free wheeling it and not encumbered with with positions right now, which is what he used to be.
Did you play a bunch with Bobby Klampett, who's obviously a golf machine guy.
Yeah, I did. Yeah, I played with him. You know, I was. I didn't play with him a lot, but you know, I was already established on tour when this this can't miss kid was winning all these amateur tournaments and he was long. He wasn't big, but we knew he was long. And he played in a couple of tournaments as an amateur, being from the West Coast, and you know he was. That was my introduction to the kind of the golf machine theory theory. I don't even know if it's a theory or not, I don't know
what it is. But and so he comes out and everybody's kind of intrigued. What is this guy? You know, he's got this tremendous lag and impact. I also did some clinics and played with him a little bit when he started going bad. And what he did was I think he overdid the golf machine. But I don't know for a fact, but yeah, I was, I knew and saw Bobby come up and then fall off the face of the earth.
It seemed like that open where he was leading by, you know, I can't remember how much, but through two rounds was and then he kind of blew it coming down the street. Maybe it might have been Sandy Lyles when I can't remember who won that year, But that really had a lasting impact on him.
Well, you know what, it really shouldn't have, because every we all lose big tournaments throughout our career, especially when we're inexperienced. The pressure in a major championship is so amplified over a regular tour event, and a regular tour event is plenty. I mean, you couldn't spit if you had a gun to your head in a regular tour event when you're coming down the stretch and early on in your career and then you throw yourself in a major. It's so I might disagree with that that it had
a huge effect. If anything else, if nothing else, you should have learned from it. Okay, you know, what did I do wrong? How can I improve? What did I learn from? The pressure? Uh? Affecting my body, my swing, speed, my thought process, all that stuff. You you you take an account many cases subconsciously, and so the next time you get in position, you learn from your mistakes before prior.
And so I disagree that it had a huge impact. Yeah, later on, Uh, you know, we all get disappointed, but you have to get back up the next day and go work.
I agree with that. I think on every single level of golf that that helps, even like your you know, eight handicap out of the club on weekends and loses a you know, a net club championship, because the next year he's in that position, he's going to do better.
Speaking of that, you know, the eighty five Masters is obviously one that in your career that kind of may might have gotten away a little bit, but it's also one of the craziest stories shooting eighty in the first round and then having a two shot lead on Sunday on the back nine at Augusta. Is that the tournament that you kind of think back to most and kind
of long for a do over? And also how did that you know, speaking about what you just talked about, how did that tournament have a positive impact on you on your career?
Well, that's when we just talked about Bobby Clamping and the Open Championship with the laws, that's you know, I can speak from experience. Yeah, you know, you you're disappointed. I mean you you know you you feel terrible for a while. And I knew the best thing I could do, and people told me that is get your ass up, get back on the golf course as soon as you can, and get in contention. That we all want to get in contention, but in contention as soon as you can,
and you know, and and learn from it. Just kind of get up and go. And I did. I mean, that's that's the way I am. But yeah, eighty five, I we had just had our second baby, and Sarah wasn't there, and so I was there with a couple of friends and so shot eighty the first round, had, you know, was disappointed because I was playing well. I already won once or twice that year, and and but I'd made playing reservations to get home Friday late and you know, be with our second son, who would just arrived.
But I shot sixty five the next day and jump back in contention. The scores weren't real low that year, so I jumped right back, kind of not in to make the cut or anything, but kind of got back in contention. And then the shot sixty eighth Saturday. And I know all these details, but anyway, I'm still behind Raymond Floyd. But I'm in the last group, and next thing I know, I'm on the tenth t with a four shot lead. And so uh, but the pressure, I've never felt anything like that. I you know, I knew
how to play off. You'd play golf. You've been successful throughout you know, the different stages of your career, and and so I knew what to do. You breathe number one? People say, what do you mean you breathe? Number one? You make sure you breathe in deeply and out deeply, and just kind of take your time. And you know, I didn't play terribly on the backside, but I lost, and uh, and give a lot of credit to Bernhard
Langer who won. But it was hard. It was hard, and it is the one I think about that got away. I was very fortunate that many didn't get away from me. And I don't say that I didn't. I didn't get all that many chances to win, but I felt like I took advantage when I when I had a chance to win. And but that is the one that I think about, and it's it was. As much as we all dearly love the Masters in Augusta National, it would have been great to to go back there forever and
put on a green jacket. But hey, it all works out in the end, and I can't dwell on it too much because we all lose a whole lot more than we went on tour. And that's why you have to be somewhat tough mentally, because the golf beat you up, the competition beats you up. You're playing against the best of the world every day, and you have to prove
yourself every single day. You're only you know this is harsh, but I feel like I'm only as good as my last shot or my last round, And so I did beat myself up a lot, but the Masters was one that was the one that I wish I had maybe a do over it too.
We talked just before about how much the games changed from a distance standpoint. I read an old SI article about that round and you were hitting a forward on thirteen from a hanging live to ten and you think about, you know, or thirteen today, like what Bryson might do this year is obviously everybody's talk about it. You might be hitting the lob wedgeon.
Well. And I had a good drib too, you know. I got up there and you talked about earlier not worrying about the ball going left. You know, I had to hit it at three in the day, those three pine trees out there on the other side of the fairway, and I couldn't drive it through the fairway. Okay, on my line, I couldn't drive it through the fairway. Now you're up in the pines draw a lot, but and
I hit a really good drib. I hit it at that middle pine is she hits the fairway and jumps a little bit to the left, and I think I had what two to eight or two eighteen something like that. It was a perfect fourwood off the hanging lie and it would carry plenty over the creek, and I just hung it a little bit. And people that never been there don't understand the slope in that fairway. These guys make it look easy, but it really isn't, and is
how you get out there and practice. But I hung it to the right, and so the one shot I wish now, I wish I had the second shot there back, and the second shot at fifteen, of course, but the third shot out of the water at thirteen is one that was such a simple shot. Just hit it like a semi buried, semi buried bunker shot. And I didn't hit it hard enough and it didn't get out and
I end up making bogie. But that's one I would like to have back because that was just a simple shot that we all have hit over the years, and not a lot, but you know how to hit it. So's that's one of three or four or five or six that i'd want back with the back. But you know, you learn, you know what, I have won two US Opens.
If i'd won there, who the hell knows, But I go back there, you know, still work for ESPN there every year, and I don't think about it often, But when you go back to Augusta every year, it seems to come up, and it seems to come up, and uh in a good way, in a good way. But it would have been it would have been a wonderful story to shoot eighty and win. I don't give a I don't give a rats asset if I shoot eighty and win or not. I just want to win. Yeah, but it was it was one of those times.
Yep, it's it would have been an incredible I uh for that hanging lie. It's funny. I was playing last week with a buddy who's who plays on tour, and I had a hanging lie. It's very similar to that one you might see at thirteen and apart five and I had to I was trying to hit a three iron. It came out low, it didn't carry over this bunker that I had to carry over. And I turned to him, I go, how how do you hit that thing high?
And he goes, you know, Andy, you got to play a lot more off than you play to hit that high.
Well, you know, yeah, and you know strength and be able to do it and and and trust me, sometimes it just won't come out high. It will come in hot. It's will come in hot and low, and you gotta you know, you gotta account for that. But you know that's that's the beauty of Augusta. I don't think you get a level lie on the entire golf course. And that's the part of it that the camera angles and the camera which flattens the two D camera flattens everything.
And it's just hard to describe, uh, the little nuances around Augusta National that make it tough.
Do you think that those uneven lies, especially today with power, do you feel that uneven lies throwing kind of scored a par out the window? Because I don't think that really matters anymore. It's completely different game than when all these pars were established. Do you feel like level lies is probably the best way to test the best players in the game now?
Uh, it certainly throws up you know, kink and and your every day just kind of flat Florida course. Yeah, excuse me. It's just one of the things that as a professional you learn to adjust every shot and and and deal with it. Uh. Wind, not so much rain, but wind, hard conditions. Uh, unlevel lies, a lot of rough. All these things are elements that make the game tough.
That's why the US Open and maybe sometimes the Open Championship are the toughest test because there is a lot of rock, a lot of a lot of rough and accuracy is as a priority and if you don't, if you make mistakes, your your mistakes are magnified. Uh, you know, it's just it's it's a game played outdoors. And sometimes if it's like it looked like this past week with Bryson and mean, it looked like it was a game
played in a dome. It looked like there was no wind, the weather was perfect, it was hot, the ball goes. All the above makes it easy, but hitting it three fifty off the team makes it so much easier. And so now you go compare Bryan Bryson, if you could average three thirty three forty three fifty Augusta, Augusta being a second shot golf course, okay, very very little off wider corridors than any other golf course. So it's a second shot golf course with the undulating greens that they have,
and they're so hard and fast. So now he's coming in with such a shorter club than the average guy. It just makes the game easier at Augusta National. You know, if he's coming in with a non iron and I'm back there hitting a five iron, guess who's gonna win?
Bryce every time? And the putting is so different, I tweeted out yesterday, if I was Bryson when I got to Augusta this year, I would, knowing what I know now at sixty five years old, I would hit a few balls, not play eighteen or play nine holes, whatever they do. But I would spend twice as much time, half my time, twice as much time as I normally do on the putting green to get used to the speed, to feel to feel really comfortable Thursday morning, ready to play.
I never felt really comfortable at Augusta until maybe Friday afternoon or Saturday, because now, you know, you get four or five days under your belt and you're getting used to the speed. But that's how fast they were in the day compared to other greens. Now there's a lot of greens fast, but they're still the fastest. Augusts are
still the fastest with the most undulation. So therefore there's putts out there that are so much faster than you've seen all year long, and they're actually frightening at times. You wonder sometime you look at a putt and say, how the hell, when is this ball going to stop? And it does. But I would get out there at boxing Bryce and spend a lot of time on that putting,
green putting, swooping putts, downhill putts. So he's comfortable because if he makes a few putts and he drives it well, it can be tough to beat.
Yeah, I think you just hit on that. One of the things that makes it's so tough is that fear factor. It's just like the golf swing you alluded to earlier, where when you go eighty percent instead of ninety five, all of a sudden, your body doesn't react it. And I feel like getting defensive on the greens is one of the worst things that can happen to your putting in a tournament setting.
Especially well, boy, great point there you do. And that brought up another thought. I putted a lot of putts in Augustus so defensively just because of speed, and therefore you stroke even changes, you take it back slower, you go through slower, and now you're manipulating the putter and you don't you don't put by feel and therefore you don't put as well. It was some of them were I'm telling you some of them. You looked at it and say wow, and then you don't. You don't show that,
you don't. Nobody can sense that, but you just go, my wow, where is this ball gonna stop? Yeah? One of the great stories. One of the great stories. Sabby four putts from about four feet at sixteen one year and he goes the press room, Hey, sebb, how did your four putts? Sixteen? Am? I? Me? I? Me? I make In other words, enough of these silly questions, you know.
Speaking of Seve. So you had some you had some Ryder Cup matches with Seve, and I read that there's a little bit of gamesmanship from Seve. Talk about Seve in the Ryder Cup. He kind of was a foil to Americans, and I'd love to hear a little bit about the gamesmanship and some of the things he would do to get under people's skin.
Well, you're exactly right, and that was just Sevy. Uh. You couldn't take it personally, but I did. He You know what would always pissed me off about Sebby And it's nothing personal. I like the guy who was such a competitor, and he was. He was the backbone of the entire Rotti Cup, not research Surgeon's up in Europe. Uh, he was their leader. But you know, he he thrived on some of the gamesmanship that you you might think
that happens in mash play, and it does. What pissed me off so much is that I knew that he had gotten to me, and I knew it was coming, and I still let it affect me. And so that's a that's a problem with me. Uh it's not a problem with him, but it's a problem with me. And that's the way he but he throbbed on it, and he knew when he'd gotten to you, and I got I got a flaud him for doing that. That's you knew he was coming with it and he got to you.
And so uh, I say that with a big grin on my face because uh, you know, gosh, we miss him and what a what a charismatic guy he was, and what a great player. Unfortunately he lost his game. I never could understand why he didn't drive it or hit it any straight because he had a good swing, great grip swing. It looked like it was online the whole way, but in the later years he didn't hit it very straight. But anyway, he was such a force in the Rotterer Cup. And you know, I'm asked all
the time, when did europe become a force? Why did they become a force. And I'll tell you why they became a force. Sevy, Nick, Faldo, Ian, Rusnam, Bernhard Langer, Sandy Nick, Sevy, Ian and Bernhardt five of the top fifth, twelve, ten, twelve, fifteen in the world. It's a pretty good nucleus to have when you're a roder Clip team.
Yeah, when you were playing your best golf most of the top end players, you were kind of the only American that was challenging those that European crop for a couple of years.
Yeah, I don't know what that was. I mean, we had we had you know, Greg and Sevy and then that crop of European players, and then you know, Tom Watson was still playing, you know, really really well and winning tournaments, and and heyo Irwin and uh a lot of younger players. I mean, I guess the US opens thrust me in front, but I didn't never feel that way.
I always felt I was just one of many. I never put myself thought of myself as better than those guys who were you know, look at Tom Watson and his you know, tremendous career, UH and and I just I never I never did that. I just that wasn't the way I believe. I, Like I said, you're trying to prove yourself every day, and and that's what I tried to do.
Was with Stevey in Ryder Cups? Was was that style that where he was never seemingly in the fairway? And was that part of the frustration of playing against him?
No, I never sense that at all. You know, I played with him numerous other times and in major tournaments and not you know, you didn't. I didn't pay any attention to anybody else playing with UH, Nor did I play against anybody. I'm out there doing the best I can. UH. You learn that early on is that you're playing against some people you feel like you should beat. You're playing against some of the guys that you admire and greatly greatly admire for their long career. But I didn't. I
didn't care who I was playing with. Certainly the better competition, the bigger name, inspired you to do well. But I didn't never look at anybody's swing. I was into myself. I was into my game and just doing what I thought I knew how to do.
I wanted to ask you about the eighteen hole playoff at your one of your US Open wins with Faldo and how that compared, like pressure wise, that Monday eighteen hole playoff versus a Sunday final round.
U magnified. And you're right, I mean a Sunday final round head to head against a world class player is it's not like a playoff because there's other players that could come from behind and win. So in that respect, it was a little different. But you know, you don't sleep the night before. You're anxious, you're on point. You know every shot you hit the next day is going to be magnified. But you don't dwell on that. You know, you try to do the best you can and you
prepare the next morning. The longest time for any professional golfer is that from the time he gets up to the time he tees off, and it's the most boring. It lasts forever. Say you get up at eight o'clock on Monday morning for the playoff in the US Opening, you don't tee off till two a two thirty. It's an eternity. But once I get to the golf course and got to the practice tee, it was game on. That's now you're now you're in your comfort zone. So
you try to do the whole thing. You're anxious, you're you know, I never got comfortable all day long. I really didn't because you know that each shot, this next shot could could win or lose your dream tournament. So, uh, you get to the first tee and I was nervous, but you now, you do what you know how to do. You go play golf, and uh, I played. I really
chipped and putted well, so winning. We got up that day and it was breezier in Boston that ordinarily it would be in a hot summer day June day, so I knew it was gonna be harder. You know, it's a US opened set up courses, fast and firm, so there's gonna be there's gonna be some miss greens and I missed some greens, but I really chipped and putted well, and uh, and you know, we had a we had
a great day. And you know how many wards were said, zero between the two of us, And that's exactly the way I wanted it and the way it should have been. Two guys going head to head and what I think is the greatest championship in the world. Nick thinks it is the second greatest championship in the world. And trying to trying to win, trying to win, and uh, it was. It was good competition.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, and then so you win the next year also and uh and then but dinah, you had you were in the hunt there for a three peat? Was it? I read somewhere that the it was really soft comparatively to you know, your traditional US Open setup.
Yeah, we got to o Kill that Monday, and it was hard and fast, and it was a tremendous amount of rough. It was the old style US Open setup. Greens were hard and fast. A lot of sloping greens, not a lot of not a lot of like Augustin National bumps and mounds and bruises, but just a lot of slope from back to front of a lot of the greens. So we're going, Wow, this is really hard. This is really hard. Fair drives are running out of fairways into the rough. And then we got like three
inches of rain on It was Tuesday night. I think earlier in the week, Tuesday night we got an enormous amount of rain and the whole setup changed, and from a player's standpoint, you felt like now you could play, You could play more golf versus play so defensive and know you're gonna get screwed a couple of times out there because of the firmness, and the whole thing changed. In my mind, it changed that now we'll be able to drive it in all the fairways and keep these
longer irons on these greens easier than before. And it's exactly what happened. I didn't I didn't miss many fairways all week long. I really drove it well. Uh, the second round won me the golf term. I shot sixty four and that's the and so now I'm just hanging on. But yeah, it turned out well. But it did change overnight.
Yeah, in your mind, I guess you know there in that era there are a lot of US Open players where you know, like a Scott Simpson seemingly was always in the hunt. You were obviously a great US Open player. Fell was there a certain style that really thrived in US Opens? And do you feel like in covering the US Open the last few years that it's it's changed a little bit.
Yeah, the style was you better put it in the fairway off the tee because remember we nobody dominated in length, and the roof was such back in the day that if we drove it in the rough, it was tough to get it anywhere near the green because we weren't strong. The ball didn't go. You couldn't overpower rough like that, so you mostly most of the time couldn't get it to the green. So then you had to get it up and down. Now with the US Open setups, it's
so much different that that I don't agree with. But a little bit wider fairways and a first cut that's six eight ten steps wider that you can play out of. And plus these players are bigger and stronger than we were, so the whole, the whole thing is easier. But that's another conversation for another day. But it was so you had to put it in a fairway, and then there was always a lot of rough around the greens and
you had to put it on the green. It was tough to get it up and down from three or four inches of rough, you know, and you into a hard, fast green. So the whole thing was so different. And I'm not saying, you know, we have a lot of runoff areas now around US open golf courses, which if the golf course doesn't set up to that, why do that and why to me have a runoff area when the rest of the golf course has rough around it. It's kind of manipulating the golf course where the architect
I didn't think had that in mind. But that's again another story. But anyway, so priority was to put it in the fairway and put it on the green, and that's what you that's what you try to do.
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think the runoff areas are they have to obviously fit. It's it's an interesting debate whether obviously there's if your short game around the green and rough requires a certain type of skill, and then short grass around the green it requires a different type you know, different shots. It opens up way more shots and recovery options for players. But you could say that if the more skilled player might separate themselves even more from short short grass.
You know, I I a will debate that with you. There's a lot of people that don't know how to hit it out of the rough. But it is a skill. I mean, is there luck involved with is luck involved in everything? But you're trying to penalize a poor second shot. And what I don't like is that, first of all, if it's if it's just a if it's not a poor shot, if it's just shot, it's not exactly accurate.
I don't like balls running away from the green twenty and that's not you know, if the whole golf course is set up like that, like a Pinehurst, that's perfectly okay. But when you go around a golf course and all of a sudden, the fourteenth hole is a perched up green and now you have runoff everywhere, whereas the other thirteen fourteen holes you have rough, and now you manipulate. You're changing the whole concept of the setup. And it's just my mic theorya of setting up a golf course.
But it's become in vogue. It's been around for a long time. The Players Championship has a lot of runoff area, but that's the way the golf course was originally set up. And they've gone back and forth a little bit on rough or runoff, but there's still a lot of runoff. When we go to Pebble Beach and this past year they didn't have one or two runoffs and that's okay. The prior US Open they had a lot of runoff
and that's not the way anyway. Let's just be consistent with what I'm trying to say and whatever's in vogue. I know it changes, but you know, US Open to me, is supposed to be the hardest championship in our country because it's our national championship. It should test every bit of your skill and ability and you should be exhausted on Monday morning after playing the US Open. And that's the way I believe it should be.
Yeah, I agree with the consistency thing because it looks stupid too when you have one runoff on eighteen holes or two runoffs and you don't have them everywhere else.
And I was remissed by not mentioning Aaron Hills was all run off as well. That was good, that was fun. You know, Aaron Hills was not a bad golf course. It was just we had perfect weather all week long and that's why we shot those scores. But anyway, it's not a historical, traditional golf course, but it was it was a nice challenge for the guys.
Hey, I wanted to talk about eighty four. You finished third at Wingfoot and you know, as just behind Norman and Zeller. I'm curious, are you know? Obviously it's a bummer that you're not going to be on the ground covering it for Fox this year, But what uh tell us a little bit about Wingfoot as a US Open venue.
Wing Put's a hard golf course, uh in the day, and it still is long, straight forward, traditional, no no secret, hard golf course, a lot of slope from back to front on a lot of greens, deep bunker deep deep bunkers, hard to get it up and down. Just you have to be it's you have to be accurate. You have to be accurate. Greens aren't that big. It's just it's just it's just one of the great golf courses you ever play. And I must say the greatest grill room
bar room in America. But anyway, you know, it's just when I played wins finished third there in eighty four, that's some of the best golf I ever played my life because it was so long and if you drove in the rock, you didn't have a chance to get it near the green. And I really really played well. I went to the last not wholes thinking I could get part of a playoff if I shot a couple under, and I just didn't put very well. But anyway, you know,
I just I wonder it's a hard golf course. When I see five six seven over par one in a US Open, I think, why, why is it so so hard? What have they done to it? In course, you can always make put whole locations where it's impossible to punt, and make me punts. But I always think par is a good score. That means if Parr is shot in the US Open, that means it's plenty hard. It would it would. It's going to be and will be a
great test this year, a great, great test. They've actually put a new p in on the tenth hole, which is a great was one hundred and ninety yards before a great great par three and now it's like two thirty. So that'll be interesting to watch. But I am ims usually disappointed and not be able to go back to the US Open. The first time in many, many years I was. I was at a TV for three years from fifty to fifty three, and an ESPN called me and said, would you host the US Open with Mike
Trico not call golf at hosts. I said, are you kidding me? Yes, to get back involved in golf TV. And that led to, you know, sixty five years old doing the US Open, and I thought we were going to do it for seven more years. And you know, the transition from Fox to NBC disappointed. We're all disappointed, but me especially because I will miss going to the US Open. It's a part of my life. It's a
huge part of my family's life. And Bill colgolf in the US Open and be around the players, and be around the officials, and you know, just be in that atmosphere.
There's nothing like it. And you know, some of my greatest moments were playing, Yes, but I must say being able to watch being the last round of brisk cupa two years ago to win back to back was was a great thrill for me to be there and see the next guy do it back to back and to watch some of the incredible shots that Gary Woodland hit last year, incredible shots the three would on the fourteenth hole of the pitch off the green at seventeen and
I mean just incredible shots. Was really a thrill from me.
The start of that round was just incredible, how how Woodland and Kopka were just going blow for blow those first six holes, birdie after birdie.
Yeah, you know, and don't think that for all the listeners and out there that, don't think that I don't get fired up when I see that I'm in the last group waiting in the first fairly for Gary Woodland to tee off, and I'm here and on my headset that Kepka's just birdied what two of the first three or three of the first four, and so now he's tied or something, and now he's really challenging Gary Woodland,
who's never done this before. And Gary Woodland, they're both great guys, are both you know, they're both you know, strong, fit, competitive individuals. And and don't think that I don't get fired up. And I'm one point and I want to do the best I can possibly do, and anything that comes out of my mouth, I wanted to be concise and right on and exactly what the player is thinking. That's all my position out there that day was to bring the viewer closer to what this guy is thinking
and feeling and what's presented in front of him. And so I'm on point, and then the whole day was like that, and it was it was a thrill. I can't understate this, it was or overstate this. It was such a thrill for me to be out there be a part of something like that. And I'm gonna miss it.
If you were talking to, say, a player and giving advice, what what's some stuff that you picked up? Obviously you were a great major championship player. What were what was some stuff that you picked up that you hadn't thought of while you were a player, when you were when you were doing you were announcing and part of the telecast watching golf. That would you think would have helped you as a player?
You know what? It's it's it's I thought about that a lot. And there's one thing. But before I tell you, I want to say that I've heard a lot of announcers say that, you know, they they learned from announcing more about playing and improve their game from announcing and that kind of stuff. That's a crock of shit. What you do. The only way you the only way you improve your games to go out there and practice and hit golf balls and play competitive golf. That's the only
way you get better. But the one thing I did learn, the one thing I did learn that I didn't know when I was playing, is that you don't have to be perfect to win. And I always felt like I had to be perfect to win. And therefore I think I beat myself up a little bit too much. Maybe on the weekend or on Sunday when I didn't hit the perfect shot, I might have gotten down a little bit too much. And I never got really a defeatist attitude.
But you know, things change, and when I have been in the booth for twenty three years now and around the game and TV that there's a lot of guys that mishit shots and miss putts, but they take advantage of the opportunity when it presents itself and they're not perfect. And I always felt like I had to be perfect to win, and I would have I would take a different, little different attitude to the backside on Sunday or maybe Sunday's round, if I had to do it all over again.
I'll tell you one other thing I would I learned over the years in a little bit different vein than your question, was that I hit a lot of golf balls and I enjoyed practicing, but I felt like I had to beat balls to keep up with the Joneses. Okay, if I had to do it all over again, I would hit half as many balls because you never nobody's ever won a tournament in history golf by striking the golf ball. You have to make putts and you have to chip well. So I would hit half as many
balls because you're never going to get so good. That's a boring trait is to be able to hit the golf ball. You can improve a little bit from here to there, but where you can really improve is chipping and putting. Become the best chipper and putter you possibly can, and therefore that will take advantage of your ball striking. Win You win tournaments by short game. You don't win them by driving in the fairway and striking the golf ball.
Yeah, I feel like what gets lost with statistics and everybody always, you know, talks about how important driving and approach play is, but you know, those things get you into contention, and it's it's very rare, and you look at players over the histories of their careers, it's very rare. You know, almost all the people that you would tab
in underachiever in terms of their win totals. Are great ball strikers who struck around and on the greens, you know, and those that's where you win tournaments.
Is like you said, Bryce and d Chambeau was number one in strokes game last week driving, Okay, that didn't win in the golf tournament. He was number one in putting that won in the golf tournament. Certainly, the driving helps, but the end game is getting into the hole. And whenever I ever won a golf tournament, and I didn't win many, because so I remember a lot of them.
I mean, I think you're selling yourself a little short there.
Well, but when I when I won a tournament, yes I played well, but I putted really really well. Every single time I really putted well. And something else. I always made a key putt coming down the stretch. You always have to hit a shot or make a putt coming down the stretch to win. Nobody ever lets it be easy for you. So you have to perform. But anyway, you know, you got to make putt. Yeah, it's very simple.
What's that most you know you talked about hitting a shot down the stretch. Which shot, in your mind is the most memorable one of all the shots.
The which qualifies what we were just talking about. The most important shot that ever hit in my life was the bucker shot on the seventy second hole in the US Open in nineteen eighty eight to get in the playoff with Nick Faldough. If I don't hit that bunker shot and get it up and down, then I never have a chance to win. So that's the most important shot. The best shot might have been the one iron in
the NC DOUBLEA in seventy four. It might have been the foreron on the last hole over water to get in the playoff with Greg Norman in the Houston Open. It might have been mean There's there's three or four that you think about, uh, and I qualify not only were the good shots, they were late Sunday afternoon and they met something when the pressure was on. So I
think about those type of shots. It's and and it makes you feel good when you do it, especially because this is what you strive to do, to do it on the stage. And this doesn't starting professional golf. This starts back there. When you're nine and ten years old, you dream about the US Open, you dream about the Masters, and so you dream about being on the last hole against Hogan, Snead, you know, Palmer, Nicholas, whoever your heroes might be, and you compete against them in your own imagination.
You're hitting three or four balls out there, and so when you finally get there. I've always felt like, you know, you you better have the guts to fail, because you're going to fail a whole lot more than you than you're than you succeed. But you got to when you fail, you got to get back up up. You can't go back in your hole and bury your head for the next three weeks. You know, you've got to be able to get back up there and do it again. And some can do it and some can't. And I enjoyed
the competition. I love being in the last group or the late Sunday afternoon because that's when you find out did all this work pay off? Have us succeeded in this game? Can I do this on this grandest stage? And if I can hit those shots, you know, on the last shust under the US Open or wherever it might be, then you know what I've done my work. This is all I can do.
Yeah, it's I mean golf. You hit on so many things there, but I think one of the I played. I qualified for a mid Am, a US Midam a few years ago, and one of my buddies who I played tournament golf with, we were talking after and he said, you know, you really got to you got to savor this moment because this is the one percent. You know, ninety nine percent of the time golf just kicks you in the nuts and says it says, you know, go
go try harder, play better next time. But that one percent when you when you pull off the shot or when you when you get it done down the stretch, is like the best feeling in the world.
Oh absolutely absolutely to hit that to hit that five or six iron or whatever club it is right flush, you finish in balance, the ball's going where you're looking. It means a lot, you know, It's just there's nothing like it, and you don't have to hit many of them to keep it coming back. But let's not forget this isn't about professional golf. This is about you qualifying for the Midam or or my son qualifile for the
mid Aim some three years ago. And it could be the USM, it could be a college tournament, it could be you could be a you know, an older guy playing amateur golf, senior amate golf, and you're you know, maybe a senior amateur in the senior Open championship. Yeah, club championship. Absolutely. And so it's it's all these stages of golf that that keeps bringing you back when you hit the good shot or you perform when it matters the most.
So I got I got a couple of quick questions on the on the way out. Thank you so much for the time. But what's the what's the scariest what's the scariest screen? At wing Foot?
Uh, let me think here for a minute. Nine is has got a lot of undulation to it, meaning not so much back to front, but a lot of movement. One has a lot of slope from back to front. Three has a tremendous amount of slope from back to front. You know, keep them below the hole is gonna be key there. Putting it in the fair and keep it below the hole. It's pretty simple wing Foot. And again at Wingfoot be an old traditional golf course, everything's right
in front of you. There's there's no hidden gems out there. It's right in front of you. It's just it's just a tough test.
Yeah, it'll be it'll be interesting to see how if the powers nullified a little bit by the rough and the greens there, because those greens, if you're in the rough, can be so tough to get to really control the golf ball.
Oh that's and that's the key of the rough, Uh is that? Yeah, you can get it as strong as these players are now, they can get it to the green, but you can't control where it's going to stop so much. And so therefore, with being a really tough course to get it up and end, now you'll be left with some very very difficult up and ends. And that's that's the equalizer at wing foot.
And then I stumbled across the story about an old bullseye putter that you had that you so you kind of trashed after a buddy of yours.
Uh, you know, this is college golf at its finest. So I got this old bullseye. My my favorite putter still of all time is the bullseye Plans putter. Okay, you talk about butter feeling soft, feeling U. And so we played a college tournament. I didn't cut well. I was rent and raving on the six hour drive home or whatever. In Jayhawk, who was always on my ass, you know, NonStop, and he's telling me, you know, that putter is not very good for you. You don't your style,
your way, that's not very good for you. You should change Pudder's blah blah blah. And finally I had enough and I opened the window of the car running eighty miles an hour down the interstate and dragged this son of a bitch on the asphalt for about three miles and destroyed this this, this, this wonderful putter. But I just destroyed it and then let it go and threw it away. Then all of a sudden I look back at Jay and he's laughing his ass off, thinking I
was just kidding you. So that was that was one of the stories of some of the stuff that happens in college golf, which is some of the greatest three years of my life.
I wonder how many how many majors you would have gotten with if that, with that old putter.
You know, I got a couple I still have in my house that were exact copies of that. Of course, they all they all were a little bit different because they're all so hand ground. Back in the day. But those putters, I putted with him my whole life until I finally went to the Zing two back in about middle to late eighties, middle eighties. But you know, when you when you look at these modern day putters, they're big and their spaith balance and they're solid, but they
had big sweet spots. You talk about the old cash inns, the old bull's eyes, the old this or that. You talk about small sweet spots, but when you put it well, there was no feeling like it.
Yeah, I think that's Everybody talks about the driver and how forgiving it is, and the ball, and I think one of the other big things is the putter. Just hitting even in nineteen ninety five, putter versus today is so much harder to putt well with it because if you miss it just a little, you're going to end up ten feet short.
Oh absolutely, But I think the putters in the clubs being bigger, bigger sweet spots have even professionals, we've gotten a little careless in our striking, in our putting. If you went back to the old equipment, you would adjust quickly, but you would adjust by being more exact, because you know you have to be exactly I went back to Blade Irons three or four years ago, titles Blade Irons for that simple reason, I said, I came out of
the room playing blades. I'm going back the gray playing blades. And because you have to be more exact, and and I think it makes you play better and and and and and just I don't know. I like the look in the field. And maybe I'm a little stubborn.
Yeah, I have a I have an old person and driver that sometimes when I'm struggling with the driver, I'll bring that out and I have to focus so much on just hitting it solid that it just gets everything kind of back into place exactly.
And that's all. I mean, everything back in the place. You concentrate on what you're doing, and and and and you hit it really well, you really do. H Yeah.
Yeah, So Curtis, thanks so much for for the time. We'll have to have you on again maybe around uh maybe around a major and UH really going to miss you not being on TV with Fox this year, and uh and thanks again, well.
I appreciate it, Thanks for those comments, and always enjoy talking about the game of golf. It's it's been a great it's been a great uh life for me and a career, and I still think about it every day. Even though I don't play much, I still think about it every day. So thanks for having me on