Colin Sheehan - Part 1

in the near future. Today, I'm really excited for the first part of a two part podcast with Colin Shean. Most of you probably won't recognize his name. He is the Yale golf coach and a former prolific golf writer. He played at Yale, also for a golf magazine in the late nineties and early two thousands, and also published a book about the US Amateur in the mid two thousands. So Colin is a great golf course architecture mind, college golf coach and also a founder of the Outpost Club.

So we had a great discussion. It's going to be a two part podcast, and part one focuses in on the Yale golf team his coaching there the Yale Golf course and then amateur golf and the USM. So I hope you guys enjoy. Part two will be up either later this week or for Monday of next week without further ado. Here is Colin I miss the.

It does help sort of, you know, help grease the skid for the for the applicants. But the kids in at least in terms of golf. The beautiful thing is they take it so seriously and it's not any it's not getting covered on Sports Center, and it's there's very little attention. If it wasn't for the occasional parent or girlfriend, that wouldn't be any spectators. And yet the kids play their hearts out. They put it all on the line. Very lucky. It's one hundred and twenty two year old program.

We had twenty one nation old championships, calling the Hickory Crafted era, but uh, it's it's truly amateur athletic in the best sense of it. And you know, academics are the top priority, but their sport is a close second, and they're dedicated to their craft. We face we face some sort of headwinds of academic rigor and or an academic threshold and the recruiting pop protests, and we are in the Northeast.

three to six. We're very lucky. The Yale golf course is only twelve minutes from campus, and in that time you go from sort of a downtown area of New Haven out into the sort of forest where you don't see a single house from anywhere on the course. It really is a on its own. Just leaving campus at two forty five, getting to the course on some beautiful day in September, did balls for half an hour and then play like a twilight nine with your teammates or

some of your best friends. Like it's a pretty good three hours on just some weekday. Afternoon, you come, they come back to campus around six fifteen, go to the dining halls, feeling refreshed, feeling wonderful. Yeah, seriously, but we don't you know, we don't have that. I don't have that conflict of interest about the about the sort of performance of the team, about having that sort of be It's never a job for the kids. You know, they

don't need to be motivated. And I don't suspect I don't begrudge any kid who goes to a major conference and maybe even accepts a little scholarship money. I don't. I mean, I'm always impressed with the kids that do that. They have a sort of vision, and but you wind up working for the program, you know, they sort of own you. And a lot of coaches like they want their kids eligible, but they need them maximizing their practice,

and and you know, the kids don't. I don't find it hard for them to have a quality undergraduate experience trying to balance a series serious athletic commitment in addition to being a student, in addition to having an addition to sort of taking advantage of it was four years, should be four wonderful years of your life.

I sort of have a degree. I have a serious degree of sympathy for the kids and as they navigate being an undergraduate, being in college, being eighteen to twenty two, trying to play golf. I do my best in the recruiting process, try to get try to get some really good players. The team's success helps helps that, and you know, I try to have them just be in in just a sort of positive mindset, try to have it, try to have his little stress and drama. On the team

side of things, we never focus on winning. We go to tournaments with with with a team that's always pretty good, but we you know, we just focus on being the being the smartest team out there, the fewest unforced airs, like hedging and playing the odds, knowing when to attack and when to be smart, and when to lay back, and and things you might do on your own when

you're playing tournaments in the summer. Don't aren't really sort of maybe always appropriate for for the you know, for a situation when you're when you're playing on behalf of others, there's we kind of we kind of look down on stupid choices.

Sometimes just hating driver being aggressive and I'm not going to stop that. I you know, I sometimes I and sometimes enjoy watching that. But you're right, you can't. You know, there's just there's just an entirely different element played on behalf of others. That's the most beautiful thing about it. Like you you sacrifice on behalf of your teammates to sort of be prepared for that tournament. You sort of you get work done earlier in the week. You don't

necessarily go out a certain night. You you know, you spend an extra half hour being you know, a dress

seen sort of aspects of your game that needed. And then for to have five guys go out over a fifty four whole tournament to sort of compete under pressure down the stretch, to have those scores sort of add up to a team went after the fact is just it's fabulous and for the and for the for a player to be the one that sort of drags the team across the finish line is just There's there's nothing more gratifying than that.

the light. But the facility is incredible. Like I said, twelve minutes from campus in and it feels like you're in a nature preserve. You could be in western Massachusetts. It's like you're up in the Berkshires. When you're playing, it's it's like, yeah, it's it's It gives you that sort of just feeling of being away. It really was.

It's just so secluded and it's a it's an incredible golf course. I found myself midway through my first round telling the guy I was playing with, fellow podcast guest Riley Johns. I was saying, God, I need to move to New Haven. I want to play this place every day. And yeah, yeah, so smart guy.

Golf is rated, Yale better be ranked higher. Whatever you know, it's it's it's in the twenties it's in the low twenties, it's in the high teens. That's a restored Yale. I think the date it opened it was in the top ten in America and now it's one hundred and ninety nine. That's an interesting story. But it's you just you can tell that it's it's ceiling is at some point this course is that conversation are just so good. It's just

you know, you're splitting hairs. You're splitting hairs among the sort of grade eating whole courses of America and Yales in that conversation.

it's challenging. And I think like in that era of McDonald's golf, like they didn't every client had a different request, and Yale came along, brought McDonald out of retirement essentially to build his design, his last course. And on the committee that Yale put together included an undergraduate who was Jess Sweetzer, who had just won the US Amateur that fall at the country Club, beating Bobby Jones, and you know,

among others. And I think that was the course that McDonald and Rayner built that was intended for the highest caliber of golfer in the country. It was the closest thing to essentially a building someone trying to build a US Open venue from that era. I mean, that's really what it was. It had to be essentially a standard scratch score of like seventy eight when it opened in the Hickory era, with wound balls and wearing tweed jackets. Even the drive on one alone, I mean, it wasn't.

It was not a course for everybody. Even though there were three sets of teas and they did promote three courses, there were just certain bunkers that I can't imagine your average person would have could have, could have could have recovered from.

keep the ball on a green. And it's like if the ball, if that was a water hazard, you know, nobody would ever complain about it, you know, and the guy would be dropping and hitting his third shot or his fourth shot instead of having a chance to make a bunker shot and you know, make a birdie. It's like, it's crazy to me because like a really deep bunker at Yale, say, like the second, you know, if you hit it in there, it's essentially like going into the water, right and.

You know, it's just that those shots, those targets used to ask you to sort of approach them with the loft of a four or five or a present day six iron, and it's just it fundamentally alters the sort of the difficulty when it's a nine iron or eight iron or sandwich. That's that's unfortunately, you know. I think the hole it plays the most differently today from from in the nineties is eight. I tell this to people, it's become a birdie hole for the for the good

college golfer. They rip driver up on the ridge, they've got an attacking wedge, they see the pin, they see the green, they've got the bank on the right to help, and they're generally disappointed if they're not ten feet with like a good luck at Bertie and the old days hit a spinny driver with like the original great big birth. We're a big Bertha and have one sixty seven and a crosswind in early April, with the approach was blind hitting, hitting like a six iron and praying not to miss

an either bunker. I mean, that was how you played the eighth hole at Yeo. You tried not to make a nine. And now it's like a birdie hole, you know. Unfortunately, that's the reality of where we've let the ball and the game go. I'm so disappointed that a game of tradition let itself let itself get sort of run rough shot over by the equipment by a sort of a sort of a compliant regularly you know, governing body and and uh technology companies run amook.

Just do you the The NCAA said they love to bring a national chance being shipped. Yeah, we've offered it would be a wonderful place in late May, early June. We'd have we'd be able to have these amazing events for the field on campus. And yet we need to add we need to add four They've told us we need to add four hundred yards to our golf course.

water hazard by three yards. I would have had like two twenty blind shot into the first green, and instead I had one hundred and thirty yards with a and hit. It gives a little pitching wedge into the green, and I mean, it's madness to me.

twenty six. Yeah on want yell alone, and now yeah, now they just now the guys sply driver and they get a sort of kicking a forward into the right sort of kick to the middle of the fairway and down below and it's it's a nine iron or wedge or whatever. It's Yeah.

a is the sort of is the speed bump. But if I could change, I wish that clubs would also make themselves more available. It's a shame. The majority of the college golf schedule is uh is Monday Tuesday events with a Sunday afternoon practice round. It's understandable why it's when the facilities are made available. So, but that's a lot of class being missed. I know, maybe you know, even the sort of major programs that's that has to add up trying to race home from a tournament flying

on a Tuesday night. Nothing can go wrong in the in that process trying to you know, or else the kids might miss another day of school. I would love to see a culture of of of architecturally significant courses, private clubs voluntarily contributing their facility to a venue and may and and and and maybe even doing it sort of on a Friday, Saturday Sunday event with a Friday practice round. And so maybe that's wishful thinking, but that's one thing I would change.

Like that doesn't matter. But I think, really, when I think about it holistically, what it matters for is the fifteen year old kid that qualifies for the State am you know, and it's his first real championship golf experience.

And it's like if that kid's playing at Olympia Fields or you know, Chicago Golf or Shore Acres or in those championship conditions as opposed to playing, you know, a a course that never was a championship golf course, when he get when he qualifies for his first USGA event, he's going to be so much more ready for it. And that's where it matters. And it's the same thing with the college program, Like playing great golf courses helps

your kids. I imagine when they are trying to get to the next level or when they're playing those USAM events and all of a sudden you step it up a step up into a USGA event. It's a whole different beast than playing you know, your local you know, County Open at Joe Blow Public Golf Course.

And then you know, and that's turning them on to sort of architecture and and seeing just sort of right measuring themselves against you know, adults, and absolutely you know, Ran Morset recently had some list about the custodians of the game and and I understand his his list sort of focused on architecture, and but I I remember very clearly thinking immediately like it should be custodians of the game are that that term is for the clubs that answer the question like what did you do for the

junior golf this season? Did you make yourself available for an event or a qualifier or a women's, a girls junior, an amateur event? Like what who do you let play your course? Do your how often do the caddies get out? Is it limited to mondays to do the sort of female members have equal sort of representation at the club. What did what did your course do to grow the game?

And you know, we're very lucky here at Yale that you know, they've got clinics and they're trying there and they've got they're constantly introducing grad students to the game and undergrads and the New Haven sort of first t projects like that's a custodian of the game, and host the Junior PGA two day thirty six hol you know, section event winner that goes on to the Junior PGA. Like we need courses to have to in clubs to feel that obligation that it's you know, and they did

a lot, do you know a lot? Don't you know? Nothing? Nothing annoys me more than a club, you know, sort of this concept that no one plays there, there's no one ever on it. You know, it's like, who's what good is that? What? You know? Of course that's their prerogative, but are they are they what are they doing to

serve the game. And that's to me when I think a lot of courses, and I have a lot of respect for the courses that go out of their way to do that, I really do, and and that make themselves available for those section events and and host charity

events or whatever. It is like, you know, have that have where the pro has a thriving junior participation, where they've where they've you know, really dedicated themselves towards towards having the sort of the juniors at the club sort of engaged and playing and competing in inner clubs and things like that.

on a Thursday, Like what did you want that? If you're if you're a club, like when you want to go watch that?

like the Philly School of Architecture. Those guys did that so they stopped getting their ass kicked by New York and Boston and the Leslie Cup.

and the most gratifying thing I've ever done. Mike Beckridge, the publisher, he offered me nine thousand dollars to do it, and I thought I was I told him he needed to throw in a complete set of the classics of golf, and when he said yes, I thought that I somehow pulled a fast one on him, like I was getting a deal. But it was a labor of It was a labor of love. I wrote it from West seventy second Street. I interviewed forty seven past champions. I didn't

have a car at the time. I would take I'd get up at six thirty in the morning and I would I would take the Red Line from West seventy second Street to Grand Central or No To to Penn Station, and then I would take the sort of New Jersey railroad out to Far Hills and then I would hitchhike from the Far Hills train station to the USGA Library

together at nine o'clock, and I would I was. I spent a few weeks just pouring through the archives and photocopying everything I could, and you know, and they would make me have to take twelve to one off when the when the sort of archives were closed, and I would, I guess I'd go outside and have a sandwich and read what I had already sort of worked on. But it was a it was a really great experience, Let's see, it was it was beautiful to track the history of

the game. Of course, there was for the for the first twenty five thirty years, the US Amateur was sort of the more prestigious tournament. The amateur Amateur amateur golfers through the twenties were every bit that equal of the professional slightly better obviously with Bobby Jones, but there was a state, There was a slew of great players. It was. It was fascinating to watch how it evolved, how it grew,

how it moved back and forth. In those days when it was basically there was a stretch when it was it was Garden City and Chicago golf, and there was a genuine rivalry between the East and the West, and real partisan nature of it with with the players. I found the h you know, and then I'd say, I you're probably you probably you probably too young to remember him. Maybe two of the most compelling stories in the US Amateur was Mitch Voges, who was forty one when he

won in nineteen ninety one at the Honors Course. He was there with his family and his kids. As soon as he was knocked out of the tournament, they were going to go on a family vacation and go see the Black Bears. And the guy had been a great

player briefly was at BYU. He was playing basically club events in southern California, and it was a totally amazing story and in how he made it to the tournament through match play blisters the size of half dollars on his feet and he beat Manny Zerman in the finals, you know, one of those sort of all American college golfers,

really remarkable. And how he went on to play in the Walker Cup that year at Port Marnick, and two years earlier was an equally fascinating story of Chris Patten was three hundred pounds, an All American at Clemson, and he won the US Amateur at Marion. And I think his parents he grew up on a soybean farm in

rural South Carolina. Real sort of great ass. Fleet was a sort of slugger and in in Little League and and with it got played once before Christmas one year when he was twelve, his parents got him a set of clubs and he went out and shot a one to twenty seven. And then by the following summer he was like a he was like a scratch golfer.

to edit more than others. And Chris Patten actually like spoke in these perfect paragraphs is and he gave the best answers, and I felt like either one of those guys could be, could could have, could are sort of ore have the material for a for a movie or a story or a book on their wins, fleshing those out like really great, really great struggle, and I think what the my one of my favorite takeaways from the book was that inevitably, in order to win the US Amateur,

especially in the current format, especially, every single player has an inevitable moment where they're on the ropes where they in some cases it's surviving a playoff to get to get through the sectional qualifying, or to be in the sort of the match, the sort of group sudden death playoff, to be the last those on the number trying to get into match play, or being you know, two down with three to go in the second round, or one

down with one to go. And I love those moments where essentially they were they were on the they were on the verge of elimination long before the finals, because you cannot win the Amateur without multiple scares. You know, look at Tiger Woods. He went to the finals of every final hole of every of every match he was in.

So anyway, I always I always enjoyed those moments where someone felt like they they're sort of their their luck had run out and and somehow they sort of, you know, because of the vicissitudes of the game, they were able to chip in from the edge of the green and their opponent like three putts from twelve feet like things like that. I always love.

Like but in the NCAA Men's basketball tournament, I mean, that would be revered if you know, if the if a twelve seed faced off against an eleven seed people would be going nuts in the final four. And it's it's so interesting because the US am nobody knows the players yet, so there isn't this problem that like, oh no, like if if Dustin Johnson gets knocked out, as bad for TV.

ever wonted three times in a row. And he makes match play in Oklahoma, I think at at at oak Tree and he loses to Rocko Media giant killer, this nineteen year old kid from like Western Pa, no one had ever heard of, and he sort of it was like one of the great upsets in amateur golf. It was interesting that he merely did it to Tiger at Torrey Pines. You know kind of yeah, you know, you know Rocko, think about that nineteen year old kid. He

didn't know any better. But then again, you're right, that's the beauty of eighteen holes. Bobby Jones said it. There's nothing, nothing more perilous for the for this sort of favorite than an eighteen home match. Anything can happen. I really, by the way, I really a golfer who but all of the med compelling stories. But Vinnie Giles sort of Marvin Vinnie Giles kind of lost on the on the sort of on the sort of golf history scene at the moment he spent it. He had famously had a

long career as an agent. He could have played pro, and he opted even in the mid sixties, the prop the sort of the there there was still sort of his reluctance to turn pro was like, you don't make any money. You stay at the holiday inn, you know, with the sort of with the sort of coarse towels and the and the little bar of soap like. He went to law school instead, he followed an amateur career. He didn't he even as late as the late sixties, he didn't see the sort of upside of of PGA tour.

Living back then, it's kind of interesting.

strokes to Hogan at Seminal. He was like the stylish Wall Street banker, like lived on Park Avenue and played at the at Sands Point and Seminal was like a plus two won. The British amateur went to Oxford flew for England before he and his brother helped fund like a squadron for England when it was still the Battle Battle of Britain, before like the United States even got involved in World War Two. It's like there's like types of characters out there used to be more common Willie

Trenisa and his family. You're right, I would love nothing would make me happier than seeing somebody come along, you know, like you know, just like a better like Nathan Smith to like win the amateur and like and you know, sweet someone to sweep the US and British amateurs in the same year. And and I would love to see an amateur. I would like to see another amateur win on the PGA Tour. That would be good.

But you know, I remember he texted me once and he said, you know, like if Maverick stays stays am, I'm so screwed, Like you know, he's gonna win every single MIDAM. By the time when he's twenty five, he's gonna win every year for decades. What do you think about that at reinstated AM.

for a certain number of years, maybe it's five. They can be amateurs, but they maybe I don't know. I don't have a I don't have I don't have a strong hot take on reinstated ams. But I do like seeing I do like seeing though the story of the guy I'm forgetting his name, a guy who won the mid AM last year and he the firefighter from Brockton, Massachusetts.