I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.
In a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida Egg egggg, Frida Egg bride.
Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the gulf. Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today's episode is with Zach Blair. Zach is a return visitor. It's been a while. I think the last time we talked to him moves before he started construction at the Tree Farm. So it's as the tree Farm finishes it is I think about ninety percent done, it will begin
to start preview play in in the spring. I was excited to talk to Zach about the project building a golf course, but also his return to the PGA Tour. He's back on tour after a long break due to a shoulder injury. So, without further ado, here is Zach player zb You're back back on the pod. It's been a minute. Golf course got built in the time that you've been off the pod. Yeah, I got it, got it. Got to ask first right out of the gate. I've
always wondered. I always wanted to ask somebody, what's major medical life like.
Yeah, it was pretty crazy, you know, for you know, right after surgery and the end of twenty twenty, kind of couldn't do anything for basically like eight months. So just got to hang out at home and you know, make make some trips to the tree farm every once in a while, I go see what's going on out there. But yeah, it was just basically just hanging out.
Was that the longest break from golf that you can remember in your life?
Yeah, for sure. I mean it went you know, COVID not playing any competitive golf for however long. That was then kind of back, you know for a couple of months straight into you know, getting hurt and not being able to golf for a couple of years. It was pretty wild.
What's what's it been like being back on tour after such a long break.
I mean it was great, you know, right out of the gates, played good at Stafeway. That was I guess it's the fortnite now, you know. It was just cool to be playing professional golf again. You know, you kind of waiting to kind of see if you can still actually compete and play and do it for a week or two at a time, and you know, I think it was cool for me to actually be like, okay, still, I'm still okay.
Yeah, that's uh.
I mean, was there anything that you felt like now that you've been kind of back in the swing, you've been playing a lot.
You know, you played last week, you're playing this week.
Is there anything that you feel like you kind of took for granted and now that you're back, you're kind of like, oh, yeah, like I forgot about that.
You know, there are things, there's a lot of things out here that have changed a little bit. You know, I did my I did my handful of rehab starts, and you know, you're kind of you have to rent a car and you have to do all these things that aren't like a big deal at all, you know, like total like first world problems. But then you know out here it's like they got the bmw X stix for you at the Amex, you know, and you know
you're eating like really good food in the clubhouse. So it's it's little things like that that you're just kind of like, Okay, this is definitely where you want to be.
What you know, what what were some of the What are some of the things that have changed that you alluded to, like would have been the biggest changes since you've been gone.
You know, they definitely have kind of upped how they treat caddies. I would say, you know, you're you're actually allowed, you know, in the clubhouse and in the locker room, where before it was like, you know, you could maybe sneak in and drop a player's bag off, but sometimes they wouldn't let you. Now it's like the caddies can can be in the locker room and you know, in the clubhouse and stuff like that. So you know, having
the rushing out. I keep telling him, I'm like, man, you're lucky you started doing this this year because you know, you're you're actually like a person. They're treating you like you know they should be. So that's one.
And maybe they changed it because they knew he was coming out. They wanted to impress him, you know.
That's what I yeah, I mean, that was the first thing I thought for sure. You know, another one, another thing kind of on the opposite side of the spectrum. There's a lot of events that have They might be getting back into it a little bit, but there are a handful events like this week at the Farmers like no courtesy cars, which is kind of like crazy, you
know what I mean. And I think they during the right right on the comeback out of COVID, they started doing that a little bit more, and you know, I think they're starting to kind of get some events where they do the courtesy cars and stuff. But that is one that's like, holy cow, it is crazy. You know.
That's that shut out.
That shuttle ride to the San Diego rental car is no joke. That's like a fifteen minute ride.
Luckily, I had my I had my truck out, you know, parked it in Palm Springs before we went to Hawaii, and you know, have it for the whole West Coast. But I think I was lucky this week because I didn't I didn't even know. But you know, again like total first world problems. But I did remember one thing that you asked that was like, uh, the first question when you're like, you know, coming back, like, what were some things that were you know, nice to have nice
to make some money. Actually, you know, I went two years you know, without making any having no income. Basically that's it's a long time not to not to make any money, so you know, golfing for money is cool.
How does that work? Does like the I've always what do you make? Would you say tournament ends? Does like the does the check hit? You're like, I assume everything's direct to positive? Does it direct positive? Like Monday?
Is it like Tuesday? Does it?
I think it's usually like Monday. I think it's a Tuesday.
I think, yeah, it's got to be amazing.
It's pretty nice. Yeah. Yeah, again for you know, not not having that happen for two years, and you know, I was on a major medical so you like, they have some insurance policy that kicks in after you know, I don't know, it's like six months you have to be out before you start getting like I don't know what it is, like ten or fifteen, twenty thousand dollars.
I don't know what exactly it is. But then I had to basically get off of that at the start of this year or the start of last year, excuse me, like way before I even started golfing again. But that's when, like, you know, basically the doctor was kind of like, yeah, his shoulders like recovered, you know, he's recovered and he
can start practicing again. There wasn't. I guess there wasn't like great communication between like whoever does the insurance policy and like the surgeon and the doctors and my physical therapists and everything, because I wasn't starting, you know, to play until August basically, so I went, like I legit went basically like from January to August without you know,
like any income, no money. And I was like, Oh, that sucks because you hear about some of these guys that are on these medicals for you know, ten years, and you know they're just cashing in this fifteen or twenty thousand dollars check. I was like, gosh, damn, that would be would have been sick. I would have just stayed on that thing forever.
Well, I think some of them have. That's maybe the problem.
They're getting two whys to the guys that have been muchen that have you know, the degenerat of tow or something that is for hiving them from playing. What's What's been the toughest thing about coming back the travel.
You know, traveling sucks. Like being able to just be at home with my family for two years was kind of like wow, this is like pretty awesome, Like get to see my kids grow up, get to just hang out with you know, my wife and the dogs and the kids every single day and just go out and you know, take the dogs out for a walk and go take Charlie to the golf course. Like that's pretty good.
Then when you have to get on a plane and not see them for four weeks, you're kind of like, yeah, this gets pretty old pretty quick.
I do you feel like travel your your mentality to travel really change with uh?
With having kids?
And because I feel like, you know, when I for people that follow you on Instagram or you know, over the years, it's like, you know, your travel was you go play some of the best courses of the world. And obviously, you know, I think I share some of the sentiment with travel, but has it. Do you feel like your mentality towards it really changed with kids?
Yeah, for sure, because you know, before kids, it was just me and my wife, you know, and she could go anywhere and not have to worry about anything and you know, take do whatever she wanted. Right now now it's like, do you really want to take the show on the road. It's like it's already hard enough with It's already hard enough at home. You know, and then
you're like, well do you want to do that? Like dude, when we when we packed, when we went to Hawaii, we had to have like multiple cars go to the airport just for like me, my wife, you know, the two kids, and you know my wife's mom. It was like seven eight bags, the golf clubs, the you know, the pack and play all the kids stuff, Like it's it's ridiculous. So, I mean, it's totally different.
It's funny.
I saw when I was when I was covering the open, we the Russics was like right next door to the dorm that I was saying, talk about like a you know, different class citizen. Right totally, I'm stayed at college dorm and across the across the street from the Russicks.
But I'll never forget Monday morning.
I can't remember who the player was, but it was like a flair that had a kid and they were packed up this this suv and they you know, they've spent a couple of weeks abroad with the kid, and anybody that's traveled with a young kid, it's just it's
it's like going to war. When you travel, like you know, like the day you're going to the airport and feel and I don't I don't mean the mischaracterized going of war, but like mentally you have to like prepare yourself for like a lot of different outcomes, and you're just it's like you're on it, like you have like that. It's almost like term of golf, like you have like a nervous energy about you all day that like really at the end of the day, you like are drained.
Yeah, I'm so bad. I'm so bad at it too. Thankfully, my wife is like unbelievable and you know, can kind of tolerate a much higher level than me with all of this stuff. But I'm like, one thing happens and I'm like I'm gone, Like I'm just like, you know, hands on my head, Like how am I going to get through this day? Like I don't think I'm cut out to be a dad?
So are you you know, with how are you planning your schedule with? Obviously, like does that factor into how you plan now? And obviously you know, the tour, the setup and the events have changed a lot since you've been out, but it does, like home time and prioritizing some time at home now factor into how you plan.
Yeah, this year, So I have like eighteen starts left or something like that, and the schedule just kind of works out that there's you know, like seventeen or eighteen more events that are you know, full point events, you know that I'll kind of get in, you know, So I just kind of based my schedule off of kind of what I would get in, and you know, it kind of worked out pretty good where there's a couple of weeks on, a couple weeks off, and it just
kind of goes goes about that basically till the end of the year. So it wasn't too hard.
Being away from golf, from competitive golf, like change at all the way you thought about golf when you came back.
Yeah, right when I came back, I started, like I said, kind of these handful of rehab starts on the corn Ferry Tour, and I mean it was really just about like a lot of patients, you know, playing really really smart kind of bogey avoidance, and it was all about like can I make for less bogies like for the entire week? And I did a really good job with that on the web, and I did a really good job of that that first week back at at the fortinet and then it's kind of like gone out the
window from then on basically, you know. But I mean it really kind of allowed me to kind of step back those couple of years and just be like, you know, I just need to like make less mistakes. Everyone just seem like they make less mistakes than me, whether it's being too aggressive or what. But that was the kind of biggest takeaway that I saw. So it's kind of getting back to, you know, can I do that? Can I do a better job of, you know, avoiding mistakes basically every week?
Did you did you watch a lot of golf?
There were I mean a handful of you know, you're kind of watching the majors. You know, there's a handful of people. I don't know if Tiger really ever played, I don't. I think he was kind of hurt around you know, most of that stuff. But it was kind of just the majors. And you know, if you're sitting on the couch or something on a Sunday and there's some big names, you know, in contention, you might might flip it on between you know, football or something like that, but not a time.
M hm, did you I guess you obviously built a golf course and we'll get into that during this time also, which was I think probably pretty nice that it coincided. But like, what would you have done with the injury time if you didn't have building. Do you think it would have been harder to be injured and away from golf if you weren't building a golf course?
I think so for sure. You know, those first handful of months, it was kind of a cool break, right, You're kind of like rehabbing, doing physical therapy and stuff like that, and you're like, Wow, this is gonna be awesome, like, you know, getting a nice break, and then you know, five or six months into it, you're like, have the itch pretty bad? To be like wow, Like I went from playing golf like multiple rounds a day every day for thirty years, you know, like thirty years of my
life basically to not even being able to swing. I think it was Yeah, definitely would have been like basically impossible for me to, you know, to do anything. It was a cool like way to take my mind off it.
Yeah, I you know, it's funny. I cut my figure.
I've got to compare to cutting my finger, but I cut my finger really bad.
A couple of like it was like a month and a half ago, and I couldn't swing.
I couldn't grip a club for a while, I hit like three balls with it. Shortly after I was like, oh, no way, and then I kept like trying and it was like and like I was ended up being away for a couple like for like I basically didn't play for two months because of it, and like it at first it and this is the way I kind of
always felt with winter in Chicago. It's like you get like that, like golf season ends and you're like, okay, like I can do some other stuff on weekends, like for a casual golfer like me, like I could do some other stuff. It's not like at the top of my mind on like what am I gonna do this weekend? And then like you get like two months and it's just like I really need to go play golf. Like you know, it's funny how how it works.
Yeah, Yeah, that's basically exactly how it was. It was kind of my surgery was you know at the end, you know, towards the end of the year, like November if or something like that. So it was the season was kind of winding down and it was kind of you know, routine, right We're kind of shutting it down for a few months, going to hang out, you know, spend spend the holidays with the family and stuff like that.
But you know, when the Masters started rolling around and you're like, holy cow, like I'm not doing this right now, it was pretty It was pretty.
Tough for me the fan.
It feels like, I don't know, I always look back on the year and I think the best time on the PGA Tour is like right now, Like we're in the middle of like the best period of PGA Tour golf. Does it feel like that for a player or is it just like you're just focused with like, you know, I'm just curious. Do you have favorite stretches? Is there like things that like you really amped up about.
I've always enjoyed the West Coast just you know, being from Utah, it's pretty easy. You know, the families always out, We're kind of driving up and down the the coast during this stretch. So I've always enjoyed it. You know, Hawaii is obviously really cool to go over there for a little bit, but so yeah, I've always I've always
liked this kind of period of golf as well. After this stretch kind of when you start heading back to Florida, you know, it seems like the schedules all over the place in terms of it's kind of like a couple of weeks off and then like a few weeks off if you're not in the major, So you're kind of going on if you're not in the Major, a couple of weeks off and then back on and then you know, so it's all chopped up basically like the next three
months once you kind of hit the Florida swing. So but honestly, it's kind of like every week it's just a job, right, You're trying to trying to do the best you can that week and get after it.
So that Nicholas Cole starts quote or something like, I got tired of of the Saved Caesar set it every week, you know.
And that's why I went back to the European Tour.
The let's talk about the tree Farm.
I went out there.
I was, uh, it was nice to see it and it's almost full full glory and it was really I haven't really talked much about it, but I was really, uh, really blown away with what you guys accomplished out there, and you know, i'd be interested from from your standpoint, what what were the differences As you're like nearing, i'd say, what, you're ninety percent done with the with the course. Yeah, differences between your original vision and the result at the Tree Farm.
I mean better, you know, I think it's a lot better than I ever thought it could ever be or wouldever be, which is obviously a bonus.
And you know, Kai and Tom and everybody, Matt Small and everyone that worked out there, you know, has just kind of crushed it and brought a lot of really cool ideas and you know stuff to the table and they're kind of out there right now.
It's crazy to see how much it's even changed since you were out there, now that they've kind of started to kind of tie in all the edges on the front nine and stuff like that. So I think it turned out like as good or better than I could have ever thought it would have, which was always the goal. Right. It's like, if you could make a really cool golf course that people, you know, enjoy playing and like coming out to you kind of that's the start of it.
So yeah, one of the things that I was taken back by was like, you know, from going there early on, going there in the middle of the project, like I knew the land was really good, but then playing the golf course as a whole, I was like, this was
this is really a great piece of land. And I think that was something that stuck with me, is like, you know, I knew that, knew it was a really nice piece of ground, but then you know, when when everything is set out and laid out, it was like, this is this is a really great piece of land.
Yeah, yeah, I you know, when when we bought it, I had obviously never built a golf course before, but I had spent a little time out there kind of you know, walking through the trees, and it felt like it should be cool, right, It felt like it should be good, but you never really know. And then obviously Tom and Kai and you know, everybody that kind of worked on the routing did a really good job of making sure that that part of it was you know, set in place, and you know, we've had a bunch
of chats about it. It's kind of like that's the starter, right, you got to make sure you get that one right, and I think we did, and you know, I think it shows off like the property in a really really great way where you uh, you know, get the visuals and you get the look of the terrain and the topography and everything like that, but you're not really kind of battling it every whole kind of up and down it.
In most cases, it's like we hired X architect and he built it. You have a unique situation where obviously you were heavily involved with the golf course uh design and project and in just the vision, but you also had Kai Golby, who for those that don't know, he's a long time shaper, also had done some significant solo work before this this this project. And then you had Tom Doak, who made a couple visits to the property
and really lent himself from like a routing standpoint. You know, what what aspects do you think, like, what are the things having worked with a couple with both of them, what were the things that they really excelled at.
Well, Tom obviously you know, like understands everything with golf you know, our architecture in general, but but like the focus was bringing him in to help with the routing. You know, early on a lot of people, including Kai, you know, had mentioned that he would be a perfect person to maybe kind of lend a hand and help out with that, and it's something he really enjoys doing and you know, he's probably the best in the whole
world at doing that. So it was really cool to just see, you know, his whole process and be involved in a in a little way and and kind of see it from start to finish, and then obviously see how the golf was built on top of his routing
was really cool. And then with Kai, I mean, he's obviously so talented in the dozer and you know, like it's just like beautiful to watch him work, you know what I mean, And he has like such an attention to detail, and you know, he would just be out there like just like shaping the like craziest little things that you're just like, what are you doing And then all of a sudden, you know, a day later, you know, it would like totally like change the golf hole or
the green or you know, the t shot like whatever he was doing. It was just like he has such a like such a passion for doing that, and it was just really cool to kind of see that whole side of it, and he was I mean, I definitely, you know, like worked more with Kai. Tom was obviously involved in the routing, and then you know, he let me and Kai kind of do the rest of it. So it was like Kai and me talked like every day for multiple years about every little thing, every single hole,
every single green, every single everything, you know. So it was it was just cool to just see that whole process,
see why he did certain things. I would have ideas that, you know, hey, could we do this here, and you know, he did a really good job of you know, I don't want to say like mentoring, but you know, kind of trying to explain to me like, yeah, that's a cool idea, but like this is why we can't do that, you know, because we need to move the water you know here and take it this way, and if you
put that there, it's not going to work. So it was just the whole thing was really cool and you know, very thankful for both of them and you know everybody else that that's kind of been involved.
Do you have a moment with with the you know, daily conversations with Kai, uh where like, is there one conversation that ever like stands out in terms of like something that that really got better because of that that, you know, basically collaboration.
I mean the one that really really stands out is thirteen. So thirteen's this big dog lay right par five, and you know when we routed it, it was it was like a big change when we you know, Tom had his original routing. Then we kind of worked on it and he came out and we made like some significant
changes to it. And so thirteen was this big dog lay right par five and there was this really really like beautiful green site that was just like really cool kind of out on this little point, and it just wasn't working from you know, a second shot like going for a par five and two, Like it just wasn't
working for whatever reason. So like midway through building that hole, you know, I had kind of like convinced Kai, like, hey, I think we should like maybe change this to instead of like staying up top the whole way, like this big dog leg right that kind of stays on the top of this uh you know valley. Basically I was
like we should kind of go down the hill. And so we basically had to blow up the green site to make it work for you know, this approach shot that I wanted to change it you know, from from down in the valley, and I think like midway through that, Kai was like, hey man, like no, like this is this isn't this isn't going to be cool, Like it's not going to be as cool as that was. And you know, I had to really kind of put my trust in him obviously, like he's done this before, he
knows a lot more than me. And it was it was just a really cool part of the process because it ended up being better than it was originally because we had to rework the green and kind of build it any way we wanted to, but kind of put it back and you know, they did a really cool job putting it back to work for going for it intwo from up top. So it was like it was definitely like this you know, aha moment where it was
kind of like all right, like Kay's got this. And it was early in the build, right, I was like one of the first two or three holes we were working on, and it was really kind of like giving him the keys like totally at that point and being like all right, like if you need my help or my opinion on something, you can ask me, but like you've got a good idea of like what we're doing here, and you know, I kind of gave him my full trust at that point, like I'll chime in here and there,
but I think you're a lot smarter than me, so I don't want to screw anything up.
It's I feel like architects probably would all say they wish they had more clients or committees that realize that they've been doing this for a really long time, you.
Know, totally totally, And I tried to be It was a fine line for me because I definitely did want to be involved, but I definitely understand did that I didn't like understand as much as these people, you know, but again, like I did want to be involved in it, so I tried to give my opinion, but at the same time, like if Kai didn't like my opinion or had a differing opinion, I would definitely like be okay with kind of what he was thinking in the whole process.
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And now back to Zach Blair, how would you characterize the differences between your early routings, because you know, you had a lot of iterations of the routings and then what Tom put together, what was really different about him?
And what were the things that he did differently with this plot of land that like, I think this is like a rare instance where you had your routings and then you know, you had somebody else come in and route you know, over the top of yours, right, So, like, what were the things that were different that the way Tom used the ground than than what you were planning to do?
I mean a lot, yeah, I mean it was a lot better. Number One, the biggest difference I would say is when I could always find cool holes, you know
what I mean? Like I could I could find cool spots, cool pieces of the property, cool land to take holes, and but my stuff was going to be a lot more like, Hey, we're going to build this hole here and then we're gonna, you know, build the tenth green at Riviera or something like that, right, like like we're going to try and do something here, where his was always like the opposite, right like, Hey, I've got this cool green site, Like how are we going to get
to this green site from here? So, you know, I think I always tried to work from like finding cool land. He always tried to work from like picking out cool green sites, which is probably the appropriate way to do it.
That's interesting, Like it's almost like he like, probably I don't know subday we'll do this. We'll have to have this conversation with Tom, but like almost zeroing in on all the A plus green sites and then working your way back from there.
Yeah. And Kai was kind of like that too. I remember when we were right when I had brought Kai in, you know, he had been to my routing and walked it and looked at it, and then he kind of like sent me back some stuff and like would just circle like you know, we need to get like to this green, and we need to get to this green, and we need to get to this green so you know, I think it's a little easier now seeing how they actually build golf courses, like you know, working that way,
and then you know, my routing, I would say, like definitely took on the land a lot more like head on where Tom like traversed it. And it wasn't a lot of like straight up and down like mine. Mine would have been really really cool and crazy and wild.
But you know again it would have been really crazy and wild like and I think it would have got a little repetitive on mine, kind of playing over these big landforms and you know, up and over, up and over, where his is like a good mix of you know, playing down through the valleys and then up and then being up on top of the ridges, and you know, just you know, the elevation change like the lowest point where golf is to the highest point, I bet it's
like seventy or you know, seventy feet different. But you never besides the walk up to four Green, you never really feel like you're going like way up up and weigh down. You know, it's just kind of like gently
going up and around and over stuff. So that was a I think that was another kind of like big difference and then the main The main one was just like I said, like I could always find cool holes, but then it would always get to a point in the routing where it was like, oh crap, like where do we go from here, you know, and how do we get back to cool golf? So let's just piece
together a few holes to get over there. And you know, Tom pieced together like eighteen really good golf holes without really you know, sacrificing like an average hole here or there to get back to good golf.
Well, the way I've always thought about it, and this comes from somebody that hasn't ever routed, of course, and I just to me, the holes that you kind of have to hang on to are when you find the really good long holes, right, like the good like great par fours and five. Knowing like because you can almost find par threes a lot of places with a really nice piece of land like you had, right.
Yeah, and par three's you know when you see like seventeen at the tree farm. It was kind of like Tom and Kai always just basically said like we're just going to have to like create something cool here, and it's the easiest place to create something, right. They're the shortest holes. It's really just like kind of do whatever you want. So, yeah, the long holes, I would assume
we're probably tougher, you know. I just kind of chimed in here and there with Tom's stuff and kind of let him, you know, take care of it, and he did a good job.
Did you guys make any changes from Tom's routing outside of like thirteen.
Well, yeah, so he you know, he kind of did all the work off the topo map like initially and kind of sent me snippets you know, where he was going, and you know, eventually, you know, like a week into it or whatever, he kind of had his thoughts on like this is this is our starting point, and then I'm gonna come down and you know, next month or whatever, and we'll go walk it and figure it out from there. And so I was pretty familiar with the property because I had just been out a lot and seen it.
So when I saw Tom's I was so excited to go kind of explore and I knew where most of it kind of went and everything like that. And then when he came down, we all walked it and we definitely like that that you know, a day later or whatever, we made you know, some pretty significant edits with with where some holes were going basically like what is now ten eleven twelve thirteen was was like a big kind
of redo just you know, and that's totally different. And then from and Tom was obviously involved in all of that, that part of it, and then when we were kind of like, okay, this is it and started actually building golf, and then it was kind of like me and Kai, I think we kind of like we shortened twelve a little bit because twelve thirteen was going to be back to back par fives, and we so we shortened twelve a little bit to make it along part four just
because we thought thirteen worked better from where we have it just from a walking standpoint, everything like that. And then the only other real change was moving seven seven green. It used to be kind of like way right up in the dune and now it's like way left over, you know, on the on the hill.
What were what was something that was a lot easier than you expected about the whole process.
Man, finding like cool people that wanted to be involved, like you know, I think I think that was that was a you know, obviously not building golf, but it was it was just fun to see like how many people kind of believed in it and wanted to be a part of it. So that's been really cool just you know, just seeing the membership you know, happen and
just getting a bunch of really cool people. But on the on the golf side of it, man, I mean I don't think I don't think a lot of the golf was a lot harder or easier than I kind of thought. I knew it would be like challenging and and that whole sort of thing. So I don't think there was a ton maybe, like, man, I don't know, honestly, that's a that's a good one. I'd have to think about that.
What about harder? What was it was?
Was there an aspect that was like way more difficult than you expected?
I think from building a golf standpoint, you know, I think we went in kind of thinking that the place was just you know, pure sand for like hundreds of feet, and uh, you know, it was kind of definitely different than that in certain areas, and it was kind of like a hodgepodge of stuff. So there's you know, some areas like up on up on the tops of the ridges that are that are pretty sandy and you know, I think was a lot easier to build golf over
there for you know, Kai and everybody else. And then there are some areas kind of like down in the lows, you know, that get more into like sandy clay. You know, it's still still kind of sandy material, but it's not like you know, beach sand or something that you know you find out at like sand Hills where it's just like USGA spec like ready to roll. So I think I think that that part was just I mean just
everything was like pretty eye opening, honestly. Just the whole construction standpoint was like I mean I thought you just like hopped in a dozer and like made a push and you're like, all right, that's like that's you know, that's the uh like fair way, you know, and it's just like you see him like going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and you're like, what the hell are these guys doing? And then you come back a day later and you know they have something really cool.
That's I have expect a decent amount of time on some projects now. Like something that always sticks with me is how if you come back every day it feels like nothing changed. But then if you're gone for like even like two or three days, you come back and you're like, whoa so much. But if you're watching it in real time, you're like, there's nothing going on. Nothing's
happening here. This guy's just keeps going back and forth on this little twenty yard plot of area, and you're like, no, you know this is this is like watch a paid try a little bit.
Yeah. So going into the process, like I was legit like gonna move out. We had a house right on the property and I was going to like move out there for like, you know, I don't know, like three months basically, and was telling my wife like, hey, I'm going to be gone for like three months. I'll come home like every once in a while, but I'm gonna I got to be there for the whole thing because I got to you know, see them, you know, build all the greens and do all this stuff. And that's
what happened. Like it was like a week into construction, and I was, you know, I thought I was going to be like okaying like a bunch of stuff, and you know, it was like three four days in and I was like, you know what, I'm going to call it audible here I'll probably just like come back like once or twice a month and we'll look at a bunch of stuff and kind of you know, go from there. But that was definitely kind of eye opening.
I'm laughing. I don't know if you've seen any of the like the videos they've been doing for the that JT. Jack Nicholas project where they're like in the cart they're making them really dramatic. It's like that like Instagram versus reality kind of thing. It was like that would be like Instagram version of like you're constantly going around like pointing at things, talking through and then reality would be like you're looking at like one thing for like an hour.
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is crazy, Like I mean, it's all just so wild. Like I see those videos too, and it's just like, yeah.
It's funny.
Were there any holes that going into it you just weren't quite sure how they turned out? And and you just you know, then we're like, oh, that actually turned out really good, like where you weren't maybe we're weren't sure there was enough enough things going on that actually pleasantly surprised you.
You know, we're kind of in that whole process that right now, you know, and Kai probably wants to kill me with you know, all all of me and my friends kind of like chiming in on certain holes. But I think the the biggest, you know, the biggest ones were like initially ten and five just you know, do they have kind of enough going on? Right? And I think they've turned out cool and they're they're subtle holes and they have their kind of highlights you know, around
and on the green. But honestly, it was kind of like the other way. I think there were a lot more holes that were like, oh, yeah, this is going to be cool, and then when they're actually done and grassed and built, you're like, holy shit, this is this is like wild, Like this is awesome.
With the subtle holes, is it? Is it hard keep from over featuring a hole?
I think on these two examples on five and ten, it was kind of like just overall, the course is like a very generous driving course as is, like, you know, there's a lot of fairway, big fairways, you know, a lot of room to kind of play off the tee and both of these holes are kind of short holes, and it's like is there enough interest off of the tee?
You know, because people are like, you know, just in general, they inherently like kind of like the eye candy, like like something going on, right, And both of these are kind of like you have a lot of room and there there are areas that it's kind of beneficial to be but they're not really that obvious. And that's kind of how they were designed though, right, Like that's why Kai and me, you know, kind of liked them initially.
But you know, when other people play, especially good players, right, you're kind of like you can't always just try and make them like more challenging because the good players think they're too easy. So it's kind of that balance of you know, not wanting to do too much, you know, but at the same time, you don't want it to
just be like you always can just pull driver. And that was kind of the that's kind of the debate on five was you know, didn't want it to just be like aimlessly always pull driver can hit it anywhere in the grass and you know, you're okay, So.
Did you leave it without a bunker's or are you adding stuff to that hole?
What we did was kind of like we removed basically where the on the right side. It kind of you know, wrapped around the tree line and kind of connected to six Fairway, and it just made it like such a massive space that like you could just pull driver and hit a horrible shot and miss way right. And I think we always figured that that grain was going to kind of like slope more away and be like a much harder shot if you've blocked it way right. And it really didn't turn out quite as hard as we
thought from over there. So we just basically kind of like extended the uh, you know, the woods out a little further that. We brought it out a little further left and then a little you know, into six fair Way. So it's just kind of like you know, native woods, you know, just off grap like what you would see off of the grass there, you know, just just for a little you know, not like oh my god, I can hit it anywhere here.
See, you got preview plays starting in a couple months, Like what are what's are you most excited about?
From a feedback perspective.
I mean mostly just you know, when people come out, it's been interesting, like from a membership standpoint, you know, some people have you know, been out a lot, you know, shout out to Big Country and you know, some people have literally the best and some people have been out, you know, maybe like never, you know, like I know, like a couple of the Utah guys have never been out. So I'm just excited for people to see it because
you know, you see the pictures online. I've been like really active on like showing people the process, and I would say the main takeaway usually when people come out is like, holy cow, it's like so much better than the pictures. You know, It's so much bigger than the pictures. This scale is huge, and you can't really capture the topography or the scale or anything like that in the pictures.
So I'm just pretty pumped for people to, you know, actually just like get out and play it and like see what kai and you know, everyone built.
Changing subjects a little now that you've kind of gone through a process of building a golf course, how would you design a course for PGA Tour pros if you're starting from scratch, I mean.
A lot of water hazards, and I mean if I was, if you're building a course for like the best people in the world. The thing that scares professional golfers is like hazards, you know what I mean. It's the one thing that kind of like will deter you from playing
at a hole. So you would like you need to get on a site that's like ridiculously sandy, or you need to spend like a billion dollars like just sand capping it so much that it can actually play firm and you know, drain and you can you know, you don't have to rely on like perfect weather for it to play how it's supposed to play. And then just like you know, unfortunately, you just got to like hazard the shit out of it and make it really hard.
I feel like I feel like sometimes tour events tour courses are like ridiculously firm, but the the level of play is so high and the ability to hit the ball high, like it doesn't it sometimes like it looks soft on TV when it's actually firm.
Yeah, they do, you know for the most part, Like you know, it's usually like fairly firm, nothing like crazy outside of a handful of events a year, and I mean it all totally depends on the weather, you know what I mean, Like if you if you have no rain, you know, and it's not super windy and you know, the conditions are right. Some events like Bayhill or you know some of them can get the can get the greens like rocks and make it ridiculous. And you know the.
Aals getting they al's getting in trouble for their I know.
It's I mean I played it a few years ago and it was like it was just kind of like it didn't really matter right, It didn't matter in a fair way or the rough or whatever. It was kind of like you just had to land it short and run it up anyway. So it's always a fine line. It's always tough, but I mean it's so hard, like players are like so good. Like I played today with
Brendan Steele and Sam Ryder and they played good. Yeah, they shot like nine and eight under, like eight and seven under, and it's like geez, like it's not that easy, you know what I mean. It's like the course is long, the roughest, the roughest, so thick, the greens are you know, fast and bumpy, and you know they shoot like nothing and you're like, holy cow, people are just good at golf.
Yeah, yeah, I feel I don't know, I don't know if you ever think about this. I I you know it, but like from when you got on tour to now, do you feel like the level of play has has risen?
I don't think so. I mean, like it's just people say ever, you know, there's just now there's you know, one hundred and forty people that hit it three hundred plus. You know when I started, there was ten. You know. It was just like when people hit it that far, like the percentages are like x amount of people are going to like pot good that week, you know what I mean. It's like everyone just hits it so far. It's crazy. It's like literally ridiculous. Yeah.
Joseph Labonia had an interesting article. I doubt you read it,
so I'll like basically summarize it quickly here. But it was a It was about how at Tory distance is just such a huge advantage because there's such low penalty if you hit it far of like when you hit it really far, if you hit it offline, it's not a huge penalty versus like any compared to Augusta National, where Augusta is generous off the tee, but when you get off the generous spots it's very difficult to recover from versus like at Tory you can miss wide and recover.
Yeah. Yeah, tories, like especially like with they've taken out so many trees, you know, in the last since I started. You know, like and I played a practice around the other day and it was just like people hitting it like three thirty five, and it like didn't really matter
if you were in the fairway or not. Obviously it's better if you're in the fairway, but it's like you're still hitting like nine iron or pitching wedge or sand wedge, and I'm like, you know, hitting it two seventy five and having like five iron in It's like I better hit the fairway and you know, still it's harder.
You gotta get out of the heavy, heavy ocean air, you know, then you can start beating it out there three hundred.
It's funny like when I go and play Sony. You know, Sony was fairly firm in the fairways this year. The greens weren't crazy firm, but the fairways were, and it was like, you know, I'm hitting shots out there and just big bounces and like hitting it close to people, you know what I mean.
The knuckle the knuckle knuckleballer.
Yeah, you know, and then then you go to like freaking last week at the American Express or here and guys like legit. I played a practice round with someone the other day and then even like Brendan Steel, I mean he was hitting at like fifty sixty by me like a couple of times, and you're just like, he just hits this smoky, like high perfect draw and You're like, oh my gosh, like that would be so nice to hit it three ten.
I've been playing.
I've been playing retro for like a year, and I got I was playing. I played Oak Hill on like a cold day after rained.
It was like a song.
It was like raining in and out of rain, but it had rained so much the last few days, and I got I got so tired, like on the back eye. I just like took one of the guys from our team. I was like, just give me your driver, give me the modern driver.
I need it.
Just disheart when the ball stops and it's just you know, it just it kills you. Well, we're getting out of here. I got two questions to finish up here with. You know, you're finishing your first project that you're you know, heavily involved with. What do you see the future of your involvement with golf course development, construction and design being have you thought of it about it and uh, just curious where where your head's at with that.
Yeah, it was obviously really cool, you know, seeing the whole thing, and you know, definitely made me, uh, you know, want to do more of it. Obviously. The big thing for me is wanting to build TBC in Utah still and you know that's kind of hopefully, you know, the next little project. Hopefully in the next year or two,
we can find somewhere some to do it. You know, it's kind of I think people will see the tree Farm and I think it's a really cool spot and you know, hopefully something an opportunity kind of pops up, you know, in the near future in Utah.
One project at a time is a nice way to think about it, right, could never get out too far ahead of yourself if you do it that way.
Yeah, Yeah, and it was it was cool, Like I mean, I really kind of went into the project thinking, like, you know, this is really like the only the only thing I want to do in terms of like if this was the only one, that would be okay. But I've always really focused on like still wanting to do TBC.
And then during the project after the project. It was really it was really kind of eye opening, being like, yeah, man, like that would be a cool little you know, that'd be a cool little gig when you're you know, forty five or fifty kind of going around and you know, building cool golf courses like that wouldn't suck.
Yeah, yeah, and in different capacities too, right, Like you know there, that's something I think I found really interesting. I talked to James Duncan, who has a longtime Coren Crenshaw associate, and he just he talked to a lot of detail about Ben's involvement and how.
Like they you know, Ben's not like.
Uber uber day on site involved, but it's like about getting Ben out at the exact right times and how interesting like people think of like different there are so many different roles of a project, and I think that's something I've learned over the last few years. It's like just how much goes into it and how little role, seemingly little roles, make such a huge impact on the greater project.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I mean it's just kind of like, you know, his involvement is like it makes it better, right, It's like his little inst here and there and even if it's changing like the sixth green or something like that. You know, it could make a it could make like a drastic difference in that golf hole, and that golf hole makes a big difference in the golf course itself.
So well, I mean, like that's like an amazing thing.
I sometimes I think about this as like if I took away this one little feature, how an extraordinary hole could turn into an ordinary hole, or if you took away something it might vastly improve a hole. It's like it's you know, the line of like it's it's a fascinating thing, right is because like a lot of the like the best stuff is really like kind of like if you move something a couple yards, it makes a huge difference.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of the whole like thing. That's the whole discussion on five right now. It's kind of like, you know, you don't want to do something that just makes it stupid or makes it worse, but if you but if there's something that is just enough that makes it better, it could be way better.
But you never really know, and you could do nothing and it could be perfect.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah, that's where that's where Kai's at right now, He's kind of like, dude, the whole stick. I think everyone should just shut up.
I liked it. I kind of thought it was nice.
I think you like, I mean, my two cents of people that have never been not many people have been there, but you kind of like the first four holes are really in your face, and I love the fifth.
It's just this like cool, little like chill hole, and.
There's just enough going on that makes you think, and you like, I found myself, like the second time around, really trying to push it up the left because I want to get up the left.
But then you have some you have some trouble over there. I don't know. I think it's a hole that could get in people's head.
I like the holes too, Like, you expect to walk off that with a three, but it's really hard to make the three.
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's really hard. It's not easy to make a three.
But you got to, you know, you got to do the right things. You got to hit two good shots and make a putt, or you got to hit one. You got to hit one good shot and make the pott.
I guess that's the that's the argument right now, is kind of like right now, the drive before they made this the slight changes to the right that they have recently was the drive was so you as long as you didn't snap like one left in the trees, you could kind of get away with blocking one seventy yards right and still just having a wedge on the green. So I think that was the whole argument. But I think Kai and those guys, they did a really good job, and you know, you guys to see it.
I gave you my two cents.
Just move the t up and call the part three and have ask Kicker part three. Ask Kicker Part three the same thing.
That would be tough.
Uh that last last question?
Uh here before we let you go, you're an elite, elite golf traveler. You've been a lot of places. What are what are the few courses and or areas of both the country and the world that that you're.
Really keen to see in the in the near future.
New Zealand. You know, that would probably be like number one on my list. And then I've.
Never got to go directly for me now.
Yep, yep, I would definitely like to do that. It would be be really cool. It seems like there's just ridiculous golf down there, you know, and there's obviously like all the all the new stuff that everyone hears about, but just seems like so much stuff that you know, no one even knows. That's just insane from the pictures that I see. And then honestly like just like want to go back to England and just like play like Heithland golf and you know, go out like east and
do all that stuff and just go all over. I went there right before construction at the Tree Farm and spent you know, like ten days there or nine days, and you know, saw a lot of really cool places obviously, but you know, not not nearly enough. It seems like there's just so much more.
That's the way I feel about everywhere I get somewhere. I spent some time there, and then I leave with a longer list of places I want to see than when I got there. You know, That's the beautiful thing about about golf.
Yeah, I was glad you finally got over to uh to Scotland, and you know I saw some saw some good spots like yeah, that's big.
I got it. Now I'm struggling to figure out where I'm going this year.
What about you? What about you? Where's where's you know, Where's somewhere you want to go? You can't. I can't pick mine. I can't pick.
Mine everywhere I I you know, I think I want to get to the Highlands of Scotland. England is like super I feel like I I almost wanted to start in England, but obviously with the old course last year, it made too much sense to go over there, and uh so England's super higher on my list. I'm contemplating Ireland, maybe maybe doing uh Ireland, I don't know.
It's it's hard.
I've like I've been like dabbling thoughts of like just getting because I can fly direct to New Zealand, like just literally getting on a plane one day. I've got a buddy that moved out there who takes care of a really nice course there that I've been thinking about visiting for like since he moved out there.
So, uh he always sends me.
He sends me pictures like once every month or so, and it's it's always like, what am I doing my goutten out there? So I've got It's hard though, because like you know, you get these constructing these projects that are about to be done, like you know, like when you look at Australia, like I don't want to go now until that seven mile Beach is done, right and I want to see that and yeah.
And then they're building the other one right there, five mile Beach, like just right on the other side, right, So it's like then you got to wait for that. But if you do that, then you're just there's always another one coming, you know what I mean.
That's that's exactly it. It's like, and that is like, yeah, so I don't know. I ideally, like I always think like if the ideal world is setting up like a shop in the UK for like a month and and and bringing the whole bringing the whole road show, that we this will ties the whole pod together. It's just bringing the road show, buckling in for a for a thirteen hour flight with a toddler and just showing for it.
Yeah, shows on the road. I like it. You can do it. You can do it.
Where should I go? You tell me?
I mean New Zealand seems pretty ridiculous. You could take you could take the wife and kids there and I think they would they would have more fun then then.
You know, anywhere else maybe, Yeah, Yeah, it's uh I think that.
Yeah, we'll see, We'll see where I end up going this year. I'm pumped.
I'm just just thinking about it is fun, you know, That's like half the fun is I mean, it's also that as somebody who struggles making decisions sometimes it's it's a debilitating I can't make a decision.
That's half the problem.
Just need you just need to pick out of the like the jar right, you have like seven good spots and you're like, you know, oh, I'm going to Ireland.
How how did you pick coming here? I put all the names in a hat and pulled out one of
them and that's where I decided to go. That's the part of that the way I want to do it, though I think I've said this before on the pod, like is like my favorite thing is finding is going to like some of the lesser known stuff, like you were talking about with the New Zealand, Like there are a lot of big name places there, but there's like I have a list of smaller courses that haven't really been you know, touristed out that I want to see.
And I think when I think about I want to go to like small areas and be in that area. I don't want to be driving a car around a lot when I go to the UKA, Like I want to go to his small area and just knock out everything in the area. Yeah, and so so I've just like locked myself into like twenty years of visits before I see everything.
I want to see good golf for twenty years or like it.
All right, zeb thanks for coming on in the middle of the tournament.
Good luck the rest of the week. We'll see you on the weekend and then you'll you'll get.
Your Sunday free to You'll be driving up to Pebble Sunday. Yeah, yeah, I'll see you next week down there.
All right, sounds good.
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