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I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.
In Frida eggad Frida Egg.
Frida Egg, Frida Egg Bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump.
Today's episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is with the legendary golf course architect Bill Coore. So this is the third time that I've talked to Bill, and uh we we caught up on a recent trip to Scottsdale and just kind of talked with him. This is the first time we've talked post COVID. So, you know, the industry is buzzing, lots of things going on, and uh never a shortage of stuff to discuss with mister Krer. So thank you to Bill for taking the time, and now here is our interview.
It's so good to see you again.
And it's been a while before COVID. It was like a month or months before COVID.
Where was the talking?
Yeah, do you listen to music?
Do I listen to music? Yes?
What kind of music do you listen to?
Sounds like one of those questions. I'm just curious.
I never I never asked you. I don't know, you know, I figured, you know.
It's interesting. I listened to quite a broad spectrum. I like everything from classical music to country western. So I guess if I if I if you had to say, what do you listen to more often? It would be so like people my age, oldies, rock and roll type stuff. But but no, I if I'm driving in a rental car or something quite often listening to classical music.
It's a lot of young shapers or younger, you know, I don't think a lot of them are young. Now, Yeah, so a lot of shapers listen to music when they shape. Do you ever listen to music when you're doing work?
On?
Of course?
No? No, and by work you mean just walking out around.
The course walking or if you're on the sand pro.
Or no, I don't any I may. I may think of a song sometimes, like like I guess almost all of us. Sometimes you think of a song, then you can't get it out of your head, the lyrics or something, and then and then it just keep repeating over and over. But it's not like I try to listen to music for a calming effect or now if I'm driving, yes, but not out walking on the site.
Now, what's your process for like building a green? How does that work? How do you guys build a green? You know and come up with green concepts?
Well, we start with concepts based on what we've seen on the ground. I mean, green's no different than entire golf holes. If there's some natural feature, and by that it's generally a land form, a contour of some sort that just conjures up a mental image of how a green might fit at that site. And then obviously with the awareness of what type of shots going to be played into that green, how long the hole is, what
the angle is, all that sort of thing. But for us, it's very often just seeing what the contours are on the ground, not just for the entire hole, but even at the green areas. And sometimes you just see areas that, well, this is a green, this is a gift that's already here. You know, we have to do almost nothing to this or very little. And obviously there's the reverse of that.
There are times that you have to link holes together and you have to build a green in an area that you know to help the sequence of the holes or the linkage of the holes, and there's nothing to work with at that green site. So then then you you create a concept from you know mentally that you think fits into the again, the concept of the entire course. But now if we can find if we can find
natural sites that just feel like interesting green contours. We're going to gravitate toward those whenever possible.
When you have to create what's kind of you know, is it just really site specific with like what you're having to do, whether it be get out of a tough corner or you know, a severe piece of land, or if it's you know, kind of a connector hole, say over the least interesting where you have to spruce something up. How do you Is it all just kind of specific on what the you know, situation is and the holes sequenced around it.
I think for the most part it's correct. Yes, I mean you obviously we start out studying the sites, and we've talked about this, you know, at length in the past. But we start studying the sites trying to get a sense of how we would travel around through each individual site and see the interesting features natural features of that site and incorporate them in some manner into the golf course.
But then we proceed into breaking sort of that circulation pattern down into individual into a routing for a golf course, into individual holes that of course go to combine together to create the golf course, whether it's nine holes or eighteen or in the case of some part three courses
thirteen or seventeen or different numbers. But so, you know, as we've talked about before, we get the circulation pattern first to showcase the site, and we start to break it and then into the individual holes based on the landforms and how we might play golf on that site.
And then from there, once we have a routing that we're quite comfortable with, we start saying what type of golf concepts would we like to see on this site that would be you know, very interesting in terms of playing golf, but would be complementary to the site and help showcase the interesting aspects of the site while hopefully providing entertaining and you know, again to use the word interesting so often, but interesting golf.
In the process, you got to get those synonyms, synonyms like you know, compelling. I've run into this all the time whenever I write It's like I want to say interesting so many times I.
Know I abandoned. I both get we we so over overuse that combination of fun and interesting. You know, we've done it for decades now, I guess so.
Uh but yeah, with uh your site, I think like you obviously have worked at a lot of spectacular sites that people can easily recognize it as spectacular Sandhills Friars had you know, the new course at Tari. What's the site that people might not know was spectacular that actually when you guys got to see that might be more
subtly spectacular. What would you say, is the site that you've worked at that was really underratedly beautiful and great for golf that you never hear listed as like your spectacular site.
G Andy. You know this site that was so good for golf, and you don't hear a great deal about it, although it does show up in those lists of you know, considered special courses. A bit old Sandwich.
I kind of thought. I was thinking that because whenever I see a picture of that golf course, I'm just like, God, that looks just so beautiful.
Well, it's so it so reflects the character of New England, and particularly that the greater Boston area, in the Cape Cod area there. The it's it's got everything from sand to some giant boulders, glacial boulders and uh it's but the contours for the most part are reasonably subtle. It's not flat by any means, but it's just the combination of the the landforms, the vegetation, and then the part of it has to be too. Just the area and
the and the heritage of golf in that area. It all goes together to make it, uh, pretty pretty special place. I was there not too long ago and hadn't been there in several years, and I just walked around and felt, you know, we try to be really understated about stuff we do, but this is pretty good. And uh in one of the amazing things any because I know you've done interviews and and uh, you know, focused pieces about golf course superintendents, you know, the man and the women
who take care of these courses. And from Ben's in my perspective, the design side, there's nothing can be better than to try than to create a golf course with an intended you know, a certain design intent and then see that golf course get better and better and better through the years and progress in a very positive way.
To attain that design intent. And what John McCormick, who actually just retired at the end of this year but has done for all these years at Old Sandwich since we built it with he knew exactly what we were trying to do with the golf course. He knew even though it wasn't in its earliest years. He knew that concept was was there and was close, but wasn't totally fulfilled, and he made it happen. He's it's just gotten better
each time you go. And there's just simply nothing from our perspective that could be more rewarding than that to just go. You do something you think has potential, and you watch other people then make that potential realized.
Yeah, it's it's a neat thing when you see when you go back somewhere after a couple of years and you see it significantly you know, it plays significantly better because of small little tweaks. It's not huge things. And I think something that's you know, odd with what you guys do. You know, a house architect and builder, they
hand over a pristine product. In a way, you guys hand over a product that's that's young and almost fragile because it's you know, you you grow it in and it's gonna mature and be playing its best maybe two years after you guys are done with your work, so you kind of hand it over to to owners and superintendents and from there the potential has kind of realized. A couple of years after where you know and potentially
you know a decade later it keeps getting better. But you don't hand over a product like a car or house where the best you know it's going to be is the day you move in or the day you turn on the ignition if it's a brand new car.
Absolutely absolutely correct. Years ago, it used to be thought of that when you opened the golf course, it would be about five years until you felt like it had it had gotten to the point you hoped it would be. Then in particularly with the influx of well financing and development, and with the the advance of equipment and all these things, we went through a period there where was almost instant gratification. With enough money, we can make these golf courses almost
perfect on day one. We can side the golf course, we can transplant trees, you can do this, you can do that. It was it was almost to the point that you didn't you didn't think of it in terms of that longer term process to get to attain the goals. It was again instant gratification. We want it now, and you know that's that's okay in its way, and that was done for quite a long time, particularly big very well funded developments, but we kind of still prefer the
old fashioned way. As you described, let it evolve. The design evolves when you're when you're under the process of creating the golf course, but then let the maturity evolve too, as long as it's hopefully within the framework of the direction you wanted to go and again the original design intent. So it's it's kind of neat to watch. I mean, it's it doesn't happen too much that way anymore. But you mentioned earlier about being at Brambles in Lake County
in California. That is very much the old world way of constructing a golf course, both in terms of having very few people out there building it, but then also also this process of starting to grass it and allowing that process to happen and then grasp some more and allow that to happen. Just this very old world slow evolution from concept to reality. And it's it's kind of neat to say too.
Brambles is something I wanted to talk about, So I'm glad you just you know, brought me over there. You did all the heavy lifting for me. You know, it's a cool project. I'm really excited to see it continue to grow in and involve and be finished product. One of the unique things out there is the sheep. They're
they're going to use sheep. I mean, is that one of the most unique maintenance I mean, you know in terms of it's the years twenty twenty two and you're going to and they're going to do, you know, really maintain the rough in the native area with with sheep and the sheep are going to roam around. It's got to be one of the more unique situations you've come across with maintenance. As we're kind of talking about maintenance, well, as.
We said, Andy, it's Brambles is a complete throwback to bygone years and by gone centuries now almost in the way that it's evolving, very much like golf evolved in the UK and other places. But that is so to the credit of James Duncan, who's the inspiration and basically the well, the managing partner, but also I shouldn't say founder, I guess not because because of very Barriage and Chris Halsworth and other people who are out there who have
been so supportive of James's concept. But it's been James's dream really for many years to try to create a golf course in America that was created and operated along the lines of the UK model, which was, yes, they have memberships, but it would be open to the you know, the public on certain days. And it was very very understated and low key. And of course James grew up in Scotland and Denmark, so he's been around sheep all
his life. So when he got out there and realized that there was actually sheep herding and going on in northern California, he's like, oh, this is this is the perfect combination. So James is the one really who said, I think we should do this. I think we should sheep should be an integral part of the concept for Brambles, and it's it's not a foreign thing that's been brought here. It's it exists in this area and listen, but let's incorporate into the site. And so it's it's pretty neat
to see. And through the whole construction of the course, we'd be out there wandering around just starting to you know, again, do minimal work in terms of earthworks and things on the site, but the sheep would be grazing. Literally, we'd walk through the sheep, you know, along the way going down the hole. So it is going to be neat. And it's the fact that it's it's not a foreign or one of these idealistic concepts that some marketing person might think of and say, Oh, wouldn't it be neat
to have sheep on the golf course. That would be neat. Let's get some sheep. That's happened before people said oh, let's have some sheep on the golf course. The kyodies love that idea. They think that's a fabulous idea. Let's bring some food out onto the golf course. If you're not prepared to operationally manage the sheep, it's a really
bad idea, particularly for the sheep. But in this case, because there you know, there are sheep herders there and there are people who know how to manage those flocks and uh, and they're doing that in conjunction with the creation of the golf course. So it's it's working.
I think the guy with the hardest job, neither guy, the person, or the thing with the hardest job out there is zeus. Oh yeah, great Pyrenees. My wife has like recurring coyote nightmares, and that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the sheep is like, you're surrounded by these mountains and you're like this, this is coyote central, this is you know, mountain lion bobcats, Like, how do you protect the sheep? And they're oh, Zeus,
the one Great Pyrenees. A dog protects eighty sheep or something like that.
Oh yeah, they're way more than eighty out there at times, and at times there are two of them. There's a Zeus has a twin and I don't know the twins name, but there I truthfully, I can't tell them apart. But yeah, it is. It is interesting to watch. It's in a way, it's got like going back centuries in time to see how that that process happens.
I mean, we've been talking about agronomics, and I think like something that you know, the advances in agronomy that can open courses faster, provide playing conditions better, or you know, quicker better. There's a lot of benefits. But you know, one of the things that the sheep at Brambles is going to bring is is a real unpredictability. It's going to lead to different you know, you're gonna get a
lot of different types of lies. There's gonna be a lot of different, you know, conditions throughout the course, Like are you excited about having out of play areas be you know, you don't know what you're gonna get over there, not out of play, but on the edges, you know, you're not sure really what you're gonna get versus like I think one of the kind of trends is this mono stand of like this is this rough is all maintained the same way across the golf course.
Well, again, this is the old world concept of your playing golf in nature. We're not playing golf in a botanical garden, you know, or a laboratory or a turf
grass nursery. We're playing golf in nature. And in that regard, the sheep fit in perfectly there because yes, the more centralized parts of the fairways and things, they're very broad fairways, as you know, but you know the majority of the area and the fairways will be very good, the turf conditions very good, but as you get closer to the edges,
it's going to most likely become less good. And then as you get off into the manage rough, I guess you'd say some of that being mode, some of it being as you're alluding to mode by the sheep, it becomes a bit more of a well, you're not sure what it's going to be. You're certainly not likely to lose your ball, but you may have a pretty good line. You may just have a horrible lie. And sheep and a lot of ways no different than people. They love
to eat, but they don't love to eat everything. So sheep will you know, Sheep will munch and eat all the stuff they want, and they'll leave tufts of things just sticking up. If they don't, you know, I guess they're desperate enough they might eat it. But that's how you see that sort of eating down and then a little tough sticking up here and there. And it's what it is. It's the connection to the history of golf.
I mean, golf began, as you know, five hundred plus years ago and on the areas that were grazed by sheep. So it's brambles in that sense, is a connection through centuries.
Yeah, I think it brings one of like the really neat things with golf is like you know, I always think of one shot. I always think of with this as like the Fisher's Island into the punch bowl over the blind shot into the punch bowl, and how you like feel like you're just like running up over this hill to see where your ball is because you don't know. And the same thing happens when you hit a shot and it's going to an area and you just have
you have no clue what you're gonna get. You might get a perfect lie over there, you might be able to hit, you might end up in a great spot, but you also might end up and the whole way up that that thought in the back of your head is gonna be like, how is it?
How I wonder?
I hope I get a good lie. I hope I get a good lie. And and then you get there and you get to see it. It's like it adds a layer of suspense when it's not predictable.
You know.
The last time we talked, it was a very different time. You know, it was before COVID. It was just months weeks before COVID kind of hit. Uh, and golf was in a lot different space. What how how have you seen the industry?
Uh?
And just the interest in building new golf courses changed over the last two years.
Oh gee, and it's it's uh. You know, it sounds so horribly insensitive to say, but as as tragic as COVID has been, for so many people around the world, it's for golf. How do you say it without just sounding horribly insensitive. It's it's been a very positive thing. I mean, people have found themselves traveling less, you know, even to work, working from home, having perhaps more time to spend and going out to their you know, being outside, which was you know, the safest place I guess you
could be. And I think in so many cases people have started to say, hey, there's a golf course down the street here, a little public golf course. I'm going to go out there. I played golf years ago. I haven't played much. I've been too busy this, that and the other. I've got time now I'm working from home. I can do at different times. And and they they've reconnected those who had who had had some connection with golf,
you know, in their earlier years. And and then for other people and just who had never played, just to be able to be outside and enjoy some sort of activity, particularly with family and friends, and and and still feel comfortable.
It's just incredible. The numbers of potential projects of being the people are calling about and considering and and uh those go they run, you know, across the spectrum, from restorations of old courses, remodeling of courses, expansion of courses, and still although not nearly as much, but still the the interest in creating new golf facilities.
I was going to ask, how are you know, having worked when it was like the heyday, you know, nineties, two thousands, how does this period feel similar and how does it feel different than that period?
Well, although you obviously, just because of what you just asked and we were talking about, you cannot take COVID
out of the question. But let's set COVID aside, yeah, and say, given where we are now in the in the the the interest in the expansion of golf is so And I'm very prejudiced about this, so I don't speak for anyone else, not being not anyone else about this, just me personally, but I think it's so far and away, far and away better and more positive for golf than what it was in the eighties, nineties seventies, when my perspective was golf was being used for other purposes, most
often to sell real estate. It was considered amenity for real estate in and so sites were almost universally demographically driven. Here's a population center, we want to build a development, we need golf to help sell it as open space and that sort of thing. Not that that was entirely wrong. It wasn't. There's some wonderful projects came out of that.
But today I actually think this research is the boom and whatever you want to call it of golf has more to do with golf than it does big developments and other things. Not that those aren't still happening, but people really, at least the people we talk to, they are really interested in doing golf for the sake of golf, for people who are who are coming to play golf
and want to play. And yes, of course they're the very high end private, you know, membership type clubs that are that are either wanting to expand or or someone wants to create that new type membership club. Those exist, but so much of the other is just about, Hey, people are enjoying golf, let's let's give them products, interesting products. And the fact that it's been proven now that people are willing to travel. Obviously with COVID that's very restricted,
but I think the anticipation. The expectation is that people will travel to play interesting golf. So you're seeing more sites and courses that are very much site driven. They're appealing, they're naturally gifted for golf, and they're not being driven. The sites aren't being driven by the demographics. The sites are being driven by the potential for really good golf
and then the people come. Now, you can't do that obviously everywhere, but that's what you're seeing a lot of today, and with a huge number of I should say huge, but with a significant number of really really talented young designers.
It seems like it's kind of a I AM opportunity for a younger architect to get their break because of the interest in redesign new development and you know, some contraction in the industry over the tough times of the you know, the late two thousands and into the last couple of years where there's only a handful of new builds every year.
I think there's again some of the younger men and women in this profession may disagree with this, but it seems to me, at least, there's never been a better time to be a young designer because I think there's more willingness. Now because of potential owners in clients looking at doing courses for the sake of golf, that they're more willing I think to step out a little bit and say, may not be the biggest name designer or the most well known, but I really like what this
person's doing. I think they have the talent they need. I think they'll do something really good here, and that's a good thing. Whereas back again, you go back to the nineties, let's say or something, it was extremely difficult for an unknown design person to get a commission for a major project because it was about selling real estate, and to sell real estate you need name recognition, and
so it was. Whereas one potential client who wasn't one of ours, but one potential client, and long, long, long ago, tell me, he said, Bill, He said, you do really nice golf courses. He said, but you have to understand the profession you're in is not about who can do the best golf course. It's about who can do the golf course that's the best amenity for real estate. He said, you have to understand this. You're looking at it in the very naive fashion. He was right, I was, but
that was long ago. In the period you were talking about today, it's at least from my perspective, that philosophy doesn't hold true.
I think it's completely shift shifted, you know. I think it's the complete opposite. Now, it's I think it's part of society. I think a lot of it, you know, matches society, and I think that's you know, bearing true with restaurants and coffee shops and everything, where if you make the best product wins. You know, if you have the best product, you're gonna you're gonna win. And that's a great thing for golf.
Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely fantastic because in those years again that you were you were describing, it was so extraordinary difficult to break into the design business because it's one another developer told me once, he said, so, Bill, what have you done? And I said, well, I did this is but yeah, but you worked that was on Pete Dye projects. What have you done? And then you're sitting there and you go, well, well, this would be my first you know, you just see the whole thing change
right there. You tell the Okay. Fortunately, I do think there's more opportunity now and I'm so happy to see it.
I want to talk about a project that I've been to a couple times now since since we last talked Abandoned Trails. I'm quite spitting about that place. And you know,
I think it's at the resort. It's got its cult following there among a lot of golf courses that are right on the and I would love to hear a little bit about the constructing the golf course and connecting those very distinct different areas of the course, the different ecosystems, if you would say, you could say the ocean, the dunescape ocean holes with the meadow holes, with the forest holes, and kind of how you guys creatively weave that journey together.
Well, Andy, it was abandon Trails began when Mike Kaiser called and I remember quite well the conversation telephone conversation. He said, Bill, I'm thinking about doing a third golf course abandoned Dudes. He said, it will not be on the ocean, so you and Ben may not be interested, he said, but I would just like to have the conversation to see if you if you might be, and if you are, did you come and take a look at the site. And I remember then, Andy, I mean
just said Mike. Yeah, absolutely, we would love to come sit. I've seen Bandon Dunes, I've seen Pacific Dunes. It's just fantastic. We'd love to do that. And it's not like the site has to be on the ocean. It's not like we have to say, oh, we've got to have the best site. If we can do something that's that you and we and hopefully others will thank complimentary to the whole goth experience there, then let's take a look at it.
And he said, okay, come on, let's go. And so went out and did look at the site at that particular time, Andy, Mike and Howard McKee, you know McKee's Pub. Howard McKee who since passed on, but did all the planning and permitting and everything for Bandon Dunes and for Mike, and it was a fabulous architect to guy. But they had thought that abandoned trails would be all east of the big Dune Ridge back in the forest.
And that dune ridge is the dune ridge that runs through from the hotel really the lodge, all the way across, you know, like two at Bandon Dunes plays into it, and then eighteen at Pacific Dunes plays along it, and Old mac plays over it on the third hole. So that's the dunes ridge, and it'd be east inland of that.
Yes, the and the You're exactly right, it's the same dune ridge. It is to the right of thirteen for example, at Pacific Dunes, and then you play over it on the second hole. I guess it is at Old McDonald. But it it extends down the coast. It's just a giant dune ridge there. And so originally Howard and Mike's at let's build it back in the forest. It'll be more protected from the wind. And I went out there with that understanding, and I went back and I wandered
back there as best you could. It was very hard to get through because of the trees and the gorse and things. There were trails though, there were both animal trails and a couple of hiking trails that went back through there, and I would just look at it. I went out for a number of days, but each time I was staying in the lodge, there abandoned dunes and I would walk out, and each day I would walk
out and I looked at the dunes. What's now number one and eighteen abandoned trails, and there was a trail that I walked on through those dunes, and I walked out through what's now number five and number seventeen, the two part threes there what we call the meadow area. And then I'd walk and get and go around the bottom end of the big dune and back into the forest. And each day andy i'd come back, I go, I could see, I guess putting it all over here in
the forest. And then one day Mike Causer was out there an hour and I just remember looking at both of them and I go, you know, guys, this is, after all called abandoned dunes. What if we start in the dunes and work our way to the forest. And Mike was going, well, I kind of like that, how are you going to do that? Though? And I's go, well, I don't know, but it might be interesting that the
more I've walked out, there's three distinctly different environments. Dunes again what we call the meadow with the beautiful but the beautiful trees and the connect and neck and the ground vegetation and sand, and then of course in the Pacific Northwest forest. And so I'm not quite sure, but I think maybe there could be a way, and Mike said, well, how are you going to get over the big the
big ridge? And I'm not sure about that either, Mike, I said, I know, we can go at the bottom end of it where it's it's much smaller, which is down where six Green is seventy.
So that was a big lynch panters that you.
Could get around that way. It's just how you were going to get back across. And but the more just wandered out there and wondered out, and Ben came out and we just kind of, you know, we looked at it, and it just it just seemed certainly to me, and Ben was in agreement about this. It could be interesting to tie those three elements environments together, and and Mike was so as he's always been so supportive, and even though it didn't fit what he was thinking of in
the beginning, he was open to it. And Howard McKee, who had permitted everything there, and Howard was Howard whom I just absolutely told one of the most amazing human beings I've ever met, and talented people. But I would have dinner with Howard quite often, and he go, Bill, I don't know, I just don't know, he said, he said. First of all, he said, we're getting ready to dedicate a lot of this dunes area and to preserve. And he said secondly, he said, that area where you go
through you call the meadow. He said, that may be the prettiest property on this entire all abandoned dune's site. You know, he said, I just don't know how you're going to do golf out there. He goes, but maybe you could convince me. And Howard too was open minded. And the more we looked at it, and the more he was tried to piece some holes together in the routing, he said, all right, all right. I remember distinctly him
calling me. They were met me out there where the old road used to go in to the main road in the abandoned dunes. You hit over now on the third T and the eighteenth T. And Howard and Mike are both going, you're gonna play over the main entry road. Well we did. We've all seen places you do it a lot, and they go, okay, that's okay. But Howard came out there and then he just said, Bill, you have one thousand feet one thousand feet from this road towards the ocean. He said, that's it. You can't go
one inch more. He said, I've talked to the you know, all the agencies, the state agencies, the county agencies. We can get you that much that strip of dunes which is exactly where one and the two and eighteen or he said, So you've got that nothing more. And then he looked at me and he said, and if you mess this up in this meadow out here, I'm just gonna kill you. He said, this is my favorite place
in the entire resort. And I said, Howard, look at this, because what's now the fifth hole, the little part three? The green was there you were telling earlier about greens. It was there, the big trough in the middle of it. It just graded it off enough to put some pins on it. The green at seventeen was more or less there, and all the stuff in between. So it was it was like, Howard, we're gonna build two part thre's in your meadal here, one going this way, one gone that
we will do very little disturbance. And he goes, okay. So anyway, that's when it linked together. And people say, well, where did the name trails come from? It came from trails because there were hiking trails out there, particularly through the meadow part the dunes and the meadow, but then the animal trails over at the Big Dune Ridge and back into the east. So I used to literally walk
around all of those trails. And so when Mike and everybody was talking about what what should the name be and just go well, there's a lot of trails out there. So they said, all right, banda Trails. Yeah.
I think you know, when you hit over the road on that third T shot, there's just once you cross that road, there's this feel of like it's a departure from the place that you're in. And I think that's part of what makes it such a you know, it's such an endearing golf course because you're at this place
and it's a resort. It's a resort. Like I think, like you're at this resort, you're you know, and it's it's you're part of this society at this resort, and when you play trails, you just feel like you get away.
It's interesting, Andy, right, the exact spots you're talking about. The T shot on number three is one of my favorite personal stories with Mike Kaiser because we used to walk out and we would the holes had been staked, and we would walk the first hole. Mike could be all excited. The second hole in the dunes, he'd be
all excited. We'd get to where the third tea is right there by the second green, and of course we're looking at a forest of trees and the road, and Mike would always look to the ocean, you know where the big dunes aren't there? He goes, He'd stand there, going, Bill, why on earth would we go that way? Meaning the way the whole The third o goes, Why wouldn't we go that way toward the ocean? And I remember looking anything, Mike, I've been that way. The dues are giant, and the
wind blows really hard. I said, we could deal with that, probably, I said, but the primary reason we're not going that way. You don't own that property. It's the state land. And he goes, oh, he owned so much as he didn't know where to and I didn't know where the property boundary was until it was pointed out to me. But I said, we're going this way. He goes, why on earth would I want to go that way? So the third hole, the third hole was cleared and the guys
worked on it, David's zinc In whom you've met. David did most of the work on the third hole, and other guys did too, but David did so much of that hole and once it was all roughed in, and of course once it was grown in and you're now playing. I have yet to ever play or walk that golf course with Mike Kaiser that we didn't go one to We get to the third t and he would look at me and he'd smile and go, why on earth
would I want to go this way? And it's one I think it's truly one of his favorite holes.
Yeah, I you know, when I think about that golf course, the first thing I always think about is those metal holes. I really like hiking, and it reminds me of I think that's one of the things that I have such an affinity for the course because it feels like you're going on hike, like you go on a hike for the journey and the different things that you see along the way and the different you know, vistas, but also
the different landscapes that you go through. The most interesting hike that I can ever remember is up in the northern Michigan and you walk through this Northern Michigan forest and then you get out and it's down Lake Superior, and you get out and it's like you're on a Caribbean beach after three miles and you get out to this wonderful place and you sit there for a while
and then you hike back. But it's about the places you go and you see and pass and then you come back eventually to the starting point.
As we were talking about earlier about routing golf courses, that's the way we perceive routing that a golf course should be. How do you how would you lay out a course in such a way that if you were going out there to hike or go for just a morning walk or something, how would you want to walk that property? If to see the most interesting elements of that property and it be invigorating, but not like so taxing that you just it's not fun, you know, And so how would you do it? So we kind of
look at how you lay out of golf courses. How would I if I weren't playing golf and I just came out to walk around, where would I want to go? And how would I do it? And you you know, sure times you want to go up on the hills and look out over things. But you don't want to do it time after time after time. So you know you do, but you want to just travel around the property.
And in our case, we're trying to get you to walk around the property, see interesting things, beautiful things, and oh, by the way, you're playing golf.
And of course I revisited uh recently. I hadn't been there criminally. It's not far away from where I live, and I had I played a junior tournament in the early two thousands at Warren Golf Course and I hadn't been back since. And I distinctly remembered holes because I remember as a as a sixteen seventeen year old kid, I'd never seen greens quite like you know, some of
the greens out there. I remember the short part three what was it, the fourth or fifth hole, and you know, I just that was my vivid memory as a kid. And you know, I went back and I you know, I'm how much is maintenance over time? And then you know, do you think, like you know, I walked away. You know some of those greens out there are some of it.
I feel like some of your most eccentric greens. How is your you know, the greens shifted as your career has progressed, you know, and you know, was that more of a gen rating interest on a less you know? You know, you know, we just talked about abandoned trails. Is you know the greens out there to be I love wild greens. So I was out there and I was like, God, I should be coming out here at least once every year.
Well, I think, yeah, if you have a site, for instance, a Notre Dame there, it's a worn course, it's basically a flat site. It's got a couple you know, spots back there that go up and down the hills. But it was it was well and it was a dumping ground for the university to be perfectly canted. It was full of junk back there. It was in the trees, but there was there were automobiles, scoreboards, it was. It was just a mass back there. And so once they cleaned all that up and then they you know, we
cleared the trees. But it's just it's not very compelling site in the sense of the landforms, although you do have some things to work with. In Judey Creek it goes through it's really pretty, but we just felt like the interest here is going to be more on the greens. And to your point, if the site's more subtle or the landforms are not so dramatic, then we try to make the golf interest, you know, particularly leading into and
around and on the greens on the putting service. If you have a site that's very dramatic in the landforms for the big parts of the golf course, we try to tone down the greens. So and for example the sand tills, let's say, because of all the natural contours in the fairways and particularly because of the wind element, we just knew we've got to be pretty subtle with these greens. If we go build wild greens here, it's going to be unplayable, it will not be any fun.
And so that was toning down green to be hopefully a bit of a balance with all the wild contours in the fairways Notre Dame a little bit to reverse. Not much wild stuff in the fairways, so a little more. Although it's not not hugely unnulating grains by any means, but they are quite intricate.
Yeah, they're super cool. I really liked that golf course. One of the best, one of the very best values in all of golf. I mean, I think it was sixty or fifty bucks an hour and a half drive from Chicago. And anybody in Chicago, whether you're a member at Chicago Golf Club or Short Acres, whether you're you know, whether you play public golf at you know, Ravslow or
the city courses. It's worth getting in your car in summer when the students aren't around and going out there because you get great hours with it on the East Coast or Eastern time zone, it stays light really late, and go out there and play. It's worth a stop.
It's While you're on that subject, though about the Warne course in Notre Dame. Back to our earlier conversation about seeing a golf course evolved in a very positive fashion. Notre Dame may be the most extreme example of that of any course that we've done. When it was first done, it was very rough, very rough. And then when the decision was made to put golf carts out there when there were no card pass at the time, after it opened it got even more rough, and so it had
its it had its growing pains at the beginning. And yet what numerous people who have been there, who've worked on it have done, but particularly a guy named Matt Sealin who was a superintendent there. He just he just left there this past year. But Matt Sealand was there, I guess for a dozen or more years. He took that thing beyond anything we could have hoped for. He made it better and better and better and better, and he did it with a very very small crew, very
limited budget, and for public golf. And it was just fascinating to see John Foster, who's the golf director there for so many years. He just recently retired to But what they did is so maybe the best example at any place that we've worked of how it's the people who care for it can sew can more influence it, even more so than some of these places that have that have progressed steadily in a positive fashion, like Old Sandwich or Friar's Hit or stream Song or all these
places that, but Notre Dame. It went from a real struggle to a to something really special because of people like John Foster and Matt Sealing. And when the USGA was there, when they played the US Senior Open, they just thought it was fabulous.
Last question here before we get you out of here. I'm curious. You know, something that always interests me about about your profession is, you know, people people retire and stuff. I what, after all you've accomplished, what keeps you really interested in the job?
Oh? God, man? And I mean to me may be the easiest question of any it's it's uh, if you have a dream when you're a kid, and one day you wake up and it's it's real, It's actually happening and has happened. I mean, do you want the dream band? It's it's yeah, it's a business, of course, it's a business. But oh lord, I just love it. I just love it.
And it's as long as you know, as long as people are interested in their involvement and their their projects, as long as I don't think that's going anywhere, you know, as long as the guys that work with us are willing to go again for another year or two. As long as you know, as long as been and our
physically you know able to do it. I just I love nothing more probably than just walking like you're talking about hike, walking out on the property and trying to envision golf and how a course might come to life there and then and then obviously own through that process,
and so yeah, I don't know. I mean I remember talking to Ben just very recently and I said, Ben, I said, you know, I guess the train is kind of pulling into the station, but I think there's still I hope there's still some track down the way before we kind of come to a complete hall put again. I mean, people think I make this stuff up, I guess, but it's it's absolutely true, Andy. I mean, I can see it right now and pinch myself because I I
could be going, really, is this really happening? Did this happen? And I go, I'm not sure this is real? And so if I'm in the midst of the dream or a dream, I'm hoping it continues for a bit. Yeah.
Doing what you love is it makes it not feel like work. So all right, thank you so much.
I get it.
Always always such a fun time talking. And and we'll we'll see you hopefully down the road sooner than later, sooner than the last time we saw you.
Well, let's hope, so Andy, let's hope for good times ahead and hopefully our pazz will cross.
Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast. A big thanks to Meg Atkins who edited the podcast, as well as Garrett Morrison who did some work on the audio as well as a quick reminder, we have a new event releasing next week. It's The Banker, which will be hosted at Perry Maxwell's first design, his home course, Dornic Hills. This golf course was restored last year by
Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design. They brought back a lot of the features that were missing, some of the Maxwell greens, and you know it is an exceptional place to play golf. It is in Oklahoma. It is only an hour and a half from the Dallas airport though, so it's an easy place to get to Dallas and Oklahoma City hour and a half from each of those airports, and a really neat spot that you should want to see.
Obviously important design in the history of golf architecture, and of course that has got a fresh look, fresh restoration from Tom dok and runs down his golf design that comes out next Monday, February seventh. So thank you very much, and we'll see you later this week with another edition of the Friday Podcast that will center on what you need to know about Perry Maxwell.