Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, I am joined by Casey Crombull, one of David McLay kids lead associates. If you haven't yet, please rate and review the podcast in iTunes and without further ado, here's Casey. I miss the green for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
What do you think the biggest smith in golf architecture is?
I would say that, you know, our predecessors were somehow much more talented than the current group of architects.
And by predecessors you made which any architects choose them the Golden Age architects.
You know, there's a myth that they were so incredibly amazing that we should go back and do everything that they were doing. And I stin't think that's true. Most industries evolve. But do you think that the best courses in the world are the old courses? Like the say some rankings which shall I would say, for the most part, because they got the very best sites and they had no constraints. They had no environmental constraints, they had no no one over their shoulder, they had no housing projects.
So they got the very best sites of the world, like Cypher's Point for example, and that's you know that it shows because they're some of the greatest golf courses. But if you gave you know, any I would say, you know, any of my the group of architects in our group, I would say, David Kidd, Tom Doak Gill hands you give any of these guys that site, I would argue that they would do a better dough.
It's interesting because a lot of times people will say, well, I don't know if I'd come up with this, but not necessarily they wouldn't come up with that, but they would come up with me something differently.
And I agree they'd come up with a better eighteenth toll for Cyprist point. They come up with a better first toal for Cyclist Point.
I think the eighteenth hole at a golf course is overrated.
Yeah, there's certainly a lot of golf courses, especially in the British Isles, where you're playing back Inland from the eighteenth hole, and it's sort of the crescendo of the of the tale that you you know, you just it kind of lets you down and gets you back home. And you know, I would say that, you know, cru eighteen is certainly a letdown.
I think about the great I think great golf courses mirror great songs, and I don't know any great song that ends with the loudest part of the song. Yeah, So I think where that crescendo is, like it is hidden fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, maybe even seventeen, but then eighteen, and I think that's it. But different styles, it's so key.
Variety, Yeah, I mean, I built a golf course in Nicaragua in the eighteenth hole was a par three right out on the beach, and it's fantastic, you know, I don't I don't know that that's so it would have been better if it was the seventeenth hole, you know, particularly, So I think, you know, variety is probably the biggest and most important game that not won shoe fits every but you know, there's every golf course is different, and the good ones are amazing for their own merits and
they're being you know, very different merits for each each amazing course that you loved.
How'd you get into golf course architecture?
I was in college and just started.
It.
Started working on a local golf course construction project because I wanted to stay in northern Arizona, which is where
I went to school for the summer. So my friend was, you know, helping build a golf course down the street called Forest Highlands and for Tom Wishoff, and and you know, I went out, there's a laborer with a shovel in my hand, and I putted that for probably five months maybe, and then went away to Mexico for after I graduated to do some some studying in Spanish and spend a year there going to school, and came back and didn't really have a plan, so I you know, went back
to this construction company. I was like, hey, you know, that was pretty fun. Let's you know, I'll call them and see if I can get a job with them. So that was a company called Wadsworth, and they put me to work right away. They were busy, as you know, in nineteen ninety nine, things were cranking, so I spent I wasn't a real you know, enthusiast about architecture at that time. I just liked being out in the woods
and you know, being out on construction projects. And so quickly with Wadsworth, within a couple of years, I was a project manager, running you know, big projects for some of the best architects in the world. So I was working with Fazzio and Nicholas and you know, all these guys. And I slowly got more and more into architecture and spent more and more time with these architects as I kind of got more and more and more into the high profile, you know projects, and I really started falling
in love with the process. And I didn't know anything about the golden Age of architecture. I didn't know anything about you know, these old golf courses that were built in the twenties. But I loved being part of the the you know, the process of taking bare land and creating these amazing things. I felt. What I kept finding
out was that these architects just weren't there. They weren't present the draw seat of plans and give them to the contractor we you know, do our best to build what they drew, not what fit in the land, not what you know, not what should have been built, not something amazing, something that was on a piece of paper, and I really found it kind of boring.
You know.
I tried to improvise as much as I could in building what these architects had drawn, but then they'd come out and they'd you know, hey, this was you know, this bump was supposed to be two inches higher. You know, there was always they were always kind of trying to stifle the imagination of me and the team I was working with. So eventually I met David on when we were building Tethero. I went to Oregon to build it
as the contractor and he was the architect. So David was the first guy I met that was an improviser. You know, the plans we basically threw out the window, they didn't mean anything. You know, we had a rough routing, We stuck to that routing, and basically him and I,
he didn't have an associate or anybody involved. He moved to bed and suddenly I realized that there's a guy that, you know, an architect that's so willing to spend his time on the site that it you know, it made everybody on the whole project much more enthused, and he wanted us to use our imagination and builds. I'll try it, build it, you know, build whatever you want. Let's I'll come back and look at it, and then we tweak it,
you know. So he kind of took me under his wing and really started to kind of hone my craft of architecture. And I worked for you know, I worked for probably twenty different architects as a contractor, so I saw all different manners and ways. But what I never saw was someone that was on site all the time. And he was there all the time. He moved to org.
Outside of just the imagination and being able to improvise. What was the kind of the biggest aha moment that you had early on with David?
But I think it was just, you know, when he it was very simple. It was just what I said when he said to me, yeah, I just moved here with my family and it was day one of the project and rented the house and moved there. And I was like, what do you mean. He's like, well, I just moved here. We're going to fill this together. I was like, no, no, no, I'm the contractor. He goes, yeah, and I'm the architect and I'm going to be here more or less every day, and he was there a lot.
You know, he still was he had another project in the UK, so he was going back and forth from the UK quite a bit. But him and I, you know, that was the first aha moment, and then from then on it was just you know, it was fun, it was exciting. It was you know, it was very different from what I had seen in the past, the ten years previous to that.
They say, it's so much more inclusive as opposed to like you probably felt like almost detached.
Absolutely they were you know, when I was the contractor, the architect was almost sort of the enemy, like you were waiting for them to show up because they're just going to change everything that you already did, or you know, they're going to blow in, give a bunch of comments and blow out of town and that's it. And it was, you know, it was everyone got inspired by David being
on site. My whole team, guys I worked with, you know for ten years that had never seen that kind of thing, and suddenly we were, you know, having beers after work and with the architect and he's sitting on the tailgate with us, and you know, it was really really inspiring, and it really that That moment was when I said, this is awesome. I've never wanted to be a golf course architect until I met David. So I'm like,
that's what I want to do. I want to I want to build a golf course, but I also want to design it. You know. That's where I am today.
That's it's interesting because you were a golf course builder. You know, you built golf courses, but becoming you know, part of the team that designed it. That's a seismic shift. And I think it's will contractors, you know, the design contract model. Do you think do you foresee that being a relevant model ten years from now?
Only for some I don't think that most people in our industry are willing to sacrifice their lifestyle to be on a golf course all the time. I mean our team, I was here at sand Valley virtually every day of construction. David was here in probably half the time. Nick, our other associate, he moved to la to build a golf course rolling Hills. He spent two years there away from his family. You know, I've moved around with my family
a lot. It takes a lot of you know, a lot of time and energy to really do the design, build, you know thing, and so you know, I don't I don't force see that it's going to be a huge thing for our industry because I don't. I don't. I don't know that people are as committed as they should as they need to be for that model. Right.
I was down at Trinity Forests and all these volunteers were and I'd walk and they need stop and talk, and then what do you think about the golf course? I'd be like, Oh, it's great. I'd be really, you know, like this state of shock because it's so much different
than everything else in Dallas. And the analogy I started to use was like, well, like most of your courses around here are you know, the architect grew up plans, hand them over to contractor who built them out, Like they're kind of like a like a subdivision house, and this is like a hand crafted house. You know that somebody was here, that architect was on site all a lot of the time, but everything, every little detail was
thought out. And I felt like that kind of analogy clicked with them, like the handcrafted model, like it takes way more time, way more effort, but the end result is all the details are right and.
You know, that's why the best golf courses, modern day golf courses are being built by the guys that spend the most time on site. You know Tom Doak, you know Brian Swanik, his guy moves to tar moves to New Zealand to Bill Tari and Brian's been all over the place. You know. Bill Cohorr was up here at sand Valley. You know, he basically came up here with his wife and camped out in one of the houses and you know, sat on the sand throw every day. It's it's you know, Gil Hants is on the bulldozer,
you know, moves to Brazil. I mean, the the guys that are in our group are on site.
It's that funny because Donald Ross, like some of his best screens are the ones that are closest to his house at Pinehurst and closest to his house at Essex.
Yeah, and you know that shows a lot, you know, because there's plenty of other ones that were mailed in. Right, There's plenty of golf courses that where the architect is detached from the construction process. And when that happens, then the motives are totally different for the people building it. When I was a contractor, I had very different motives than I do as an architect. And my motives weren't always you know, to spend to reshape a green twelve
times because you can't get it right. And that happens all the time now, you know, Yeah, we're reshaping and tweaking all the time until the very last minute, until the seed goes down. And it just wasn't the same as a contractor. So there's plenty of great contractors out there, and they build good golf courses, and there's plenty of great architects. You know, that model isn't producing a lot of top one hundred in the world golf courses.
So of the architects you worked with with a contractor, like, I'm hard on a lot of architects and from that general era, like, what are some things that I might be overlooking as to what they did well?
I think the probably the group that gets the least love in them, you know, in the.
Golf architecture world is Tom Bosio. And what you know what Tom produced and reproduced over and over on a lot a lot of golf courses, and the biggest thing is playability. He produced or designed really playable golf courses all over the country. You didn't do a lot around the world because we didn't really want to work, didn't need to work outside the US. But you know, the Fasio guys in that era were probably as committed as
anyone today. I worked on project in Mexico and they had two full time you know, design associates there all the time, and they were they were committed. The problem that they always had was that there was too many tears that you know, they had of Austin and they had of Boston, and Tom was there, you know, he wasn't there enough and he would come in and make pretty large decisions. But they were very committed, and I think they they built a lot of really playable golf courses.
And you know that's obviously something that David and I are are trying to push and you know his core in our design ethos is is playability.
That's the thing with Fasio courses. There's always like big corridor space I think where he'd messed so, like just make a fair way, like it just was so much long rough. Yeah, and like if you just you look at these places, like you never go there. Most Fasio courses are never like offensive.
Ever, they're never. I mean there's some really good ones that you know, they're they're good, they're really really solid.
Yeah, but they never they never inspire you. Like I think something I look at it with golf, like at a very core level, like the really great golf courses, like you start to get sad at the end of the round because you know it's coming to the end for sure, And I think that that's where you're having so much fun, you know, and golf is supposed to be fun. It's tell me about David. You guys have undergone kind of almost like a retransformation back to you know,
the fun principles. Tell me about the journey and kind of the change in the ethos over the last five six years, you know.
My So, you know, that's a great question because I don't think it was. It was like a blink of time when there was particularly two courses, Tetheroe and the Castle Course that were being built kind of simultaneously. And when I met David, he said, hey, I got to take you over to Scotland right at the beginning of construction at Tetherow and he's like, let's go. We're going to Scotland. So we flew over to Scotland. He showed
the castle course. It was there was a few holes that had been grassed, I think, and and he he you know, he showed it, showed me how awesome. Well I loved it. I walked it, you know, went to the old course. We spent some time in St Andrews and I really got to kind of see what he was doing at the castle. And so when I went back to Tetheroe, we kind of tried to emulate that.
And one of the shapers actually from the castle Cose Mick mcchaine, he came to Tetheroe as well, and yeah, Mick McShane amazing at, amazing at And so Tetherowe and the Castle course are like twin brothers almost. There. There's you know, there's the there's you know, fringy areas in the middle of fairways and there's you know, wild greens, and you know, neither of the golf courses were on sand,
so they were very similar. You know, they're twin brothers, and that's I was almost trying to build what I thought David wanted. And really it's those two courses that sort of you know, got us David maybe a reputation of building these things that are maybe a little too difficult. I think they're both fantastic courses, and if they were one hundred years old, I think both of the courses would be highly revered. You know, new courses that are bold, you know, don't don't usually.
So I haven't played either. But one of the things
I think is that different isn't always bad. Like I think, especially with today's like era of social media, there's like a there's a potential for everything to become the same because of you know, like, hey, this works here, so let's keep doing it here and here and here, and you know, you went over to the castle course inside and that's your first job with your new boss, and you come back it's like this must have How hard is it to build new stuff like and new ideas
and constantly come up with new ideas.
It's hard, I mean, and it's it's you know, I think with Taylor on the castle, you know he was trying to build David was trying to build both of them at the same time. He had me building Taylor, and he had another guy named Paul Kimber building the castle, and what neither of us did was show restraint, you know, neither of us. I was pushing the gas pedal as hard as I could, and you know Paul was doing the same in Scotland, and I think, you know, we
were trying to do something super different. I had no one telling me no, everyone was you know, it was yes, yes, yes. And David, you know, for whatever, I think for a blink of time he maybe just lost a little bit of focus on on both of those projects and let me and Paul sort of, you know, really really be and the shapers too, they were pushing the limits, you know. Mick McShane was, he was He wanted to create the wildest,
crazy screens of all time. And I think it's easy to do something different, but it's really hard to then make it playable. We have to show some restraint. If I could do tether over again, a little bit of restraint around the greens, a few things to change, and it's a top you know, fifty in the world golf course because I think it's amazing and it's on a great site. Same with the Castle course.
You know.
So I think it's easy to do something different, but how will it be viewed long term? Is it a good golf course. You know, that's really the balance as you try to do something that hasn't been done before. But you know, if you don't show any restraint and then then probably gonna playability will suffer.
You think about Sagrass. When Sagrass first opened, everybody hated it. I mean, like the players called it like you know, goofy golf, and you read the quotes from that first players. But once people get used to it different, it's not necessarily always that bad.
Yeah, I agree, And like I said, I think long term the cast course in tether will be seen as you know, amazing golf courses because I think they're they're both they're both really amazing sites.
Since you're think that the greatest sites were the Golden Age architects and today's architect would have, you know, built a better course in your opinion, what's the greatest course in the world.
Probably Pine Valley. Yeah, I mean I think Pine Valley is sort of you know, it's it's everything that I think great golf is. I think it's the greens are you know, amazing. I think it's it's nice. I feel like it's fairly wide and and you know, pretty generous off the tee, which is great. I didn't lose the ball, you know, either time I played it, and very challenging into the green. So you know the challenge is there.
You've got to be on it. You have to be you know, you have to be playing good golf and the setting is fantastic.
It's that's a that's a good sight.
Yeah, it is an amazing thing. You can you know, you can see what great architects today like Tom Doe Guitar ev what guys like us can do with amazing sights. Right, it's it's you know, it is uh. I think both these courses sand Ally and Mammothoons are the same. We get great sites with no constraints, and we can and the Kaisers have let us, you know, let us come out here and lay off wherever we want, make everything else secondary. And you know that's what those Golden Age
architects did. They didn't have someone telling them where the clubhouse needed to be and you know, telling them about a green tree frog that you know had to we had to keep all these trees for environmental reasons. I mean, none of that stuff has happening back then.
So what's the biggest challenge when you get a world class site like mammothin's.
Not disappointing people. That's the biggest challenge. I mean, if you don't nail it, you know, there's no excuse, right. We have a lot of excuses on other projects where it's other people are or other you know, circumstances are constraining our our creativity. But someone like man students, there is no constraints. There's no one to blame. If it's not great, it's David Nieball.
So I think one of the most unique things here is the routing and how it's you know, you've worked over tough ground that other architects passed on, you know, like from your standpoint, how the process of coming up with this routing with David and Nick. How difficult was that.
No, I wasn't very involved in the routing because I was working on other stuff. I think I was in England at the time, so Nick and David were over here together. But you know Nick, who's our other partner.
He has a really strong background in landscape architecture and I know it's a dirty word these days, but in AutoCAD and you know, using using the tools that modern architects have on their finger tips to model the ground, and you know a lot of other architects looked at our site and no one, no one could really figure it out. Then, you know, Nick did some amazing stuff with AutoCAD and modeled the the landscape and we figured out that there was this big giant V ridge running
through this site. And it was if we modeled the entire holding landholding, which was like a couple of thousand acres, and that ridge completely stood out. You can you can use AutoCAD to create you know, different colors for different elevations. So instantly we had this big giant map with two thousand acres on it and there's just a giant V ridge. You know, that was the most prominent feature by far on the whole landscape, and instantly David and Nick gravitated
towards it. So, you know, we were looking for a dramatic site and we had to find a way through it. And those guys with the you know, with the AutoCAD work that they did, they found a way to get over the ridge and different places and sort of set up the whole routing. You know, there was only one way to really cross on the north end on the south end and sort of laid itself out from there.
What's the one thing that you think you wish that you know, the regular golfer wouldn't know before playing mammothon.
I don't think I want him to know anything. I want them to just come out and, you know, experience that walk through the breezeway of the clubhouse out onto that awesome hutting green and see, you know, the landscape before them. And my hope is they think, like you know, they feel that it was always a sand baron, that it never was a pine forest, and that you know, it always sort of looked like that and we just
laid golf over it. But you know, I don't I don't feel that you need to explain it to anybody. You don't need to tell them anything. You just let them show up and experience it.
What about your job?
What about my job?
What would you want somebody to understand more about your job?
I guess you know probably what every other you know, associate designer would want. And a little recognition you know that that David didn't design it all by himself. You know there was a team of guys in granted he's the inspiration and he's the whole reason we're here. And you know he he taught me everything I know about golf course design. But you know, we also have I'm a big part of this, you know, I was here every day and my shape, you know, the shapers that
work for us, Bernie Poul Verrari and Luis Barrella. We're out here every day and you know this place is you know, I wish the average person knew that it was more of a team effort, you know, But that's you.
Know, I think that goes with everything. It's I think it's almost it's almost a media's fault because it's way easier to like gravitate towards one person than tell a story of a team.
You know, absolutely there's there's a leader in every team, and you know, and and David deserves it, you know, but and I don't. It doesn't really bother me that much. But it's uh, and David's really well, really good at trying to, you know, say it as in the media that it's always a team effort. You know that it's him and I and Nick and are shapers and the rest of the guys on the group.
But so if you could build, you know, one kind of different style of golf, you know, whether it be a different concept with the number of holes or par or what.
Would it be. You know, obviously, I think the biggest thing is just time, right that that none of us is as fathers and generally have as much time as as you know, as our parents did. My dad can go out and golf all day on Saturday and you know, no big deal. But you know, as we as we involved as parents, I can't go on a Saturday morning and play golf every week, you know, and I don't want to. I'd rather spend the time with my kids. So it would really be about trying to do things quicker.
I don't know. I think it's more of a style of design, you know, that that promotes a faster pace of play. The pace of play is a is at playing slow golf. I hate it, and if I'm behind a group and it's slow, I almost just want to walk off no matter where I'm playing.
That's what I was playing Whistling Straight a couple of weeks ago. Took us five and a half hours to play, and we waited on every tea box. It was maddening. Made me want to walk off the golf course.
You know, I think I think the and obviously you know, the private club you know, ideas probably the only place where this really works. But the ahoopie match play thing, I've heard you talking about that, and I think I heard Gil talking about it on your podcast. But the idea of match play, you know, in the US is something that isn't fully embraced, and in the UK it is.
And I spent a couple of years living in London and playing golf all around in the UK and golf over there is much more about a match, you know, a competition between friends. Rarely do you see a guy just go out and golf by himself, you know, it
just doesn't happen. It's, hey, let's get a game together, you know, let's get a couple of guys and we'll go play and we'll play match and it's it promotes fast play, right because you just pick up and people in the US, you know, the US golfer and I think a lot of it has to do with a handicap system doesn't fully understand that. So if we could, you know, if we could, and maybe it's just a model, maybe it's not as much about architecture, but trying to
do things that promote more match play. Yeah, you know, play quicker, enjoy the compent a little bit.
She played a lot of alternative shot over there.
I didn't. I mean, I knew a lot of guys that did, and I played on several occasions. But and I played a couple you know events at my club that are alternate shot and I love it, and I think it's amazing.
That's like one way to really speed up the game at all.
Somehow, in the US we are fixated on playing our own ball the whole time, all the way to the hole and putting it in and posting a score on our you know, gin handicap and it causes five and a half hour rounds.
Do you think that's because of the PGA Tour.
I don't know if it's the tour. But in the UK the handicap system is much different. Right, You play three competitive matches, I think, and you get a handicap from your club and that's it. That's your index, that's your that's your you know, and then so for the rest of the year doesn't You don't post scores, So if you're playing a match, you just pick up the ball. You know, if the guy gets three and you're sitting
there in four, pick your ball. And you know, I don't know if it's the PGA Tour or I guess more of the USGA, but the way that we the American system of posting the scores for handicap and constantly posting every single one, it's counterproductive.
The handicap system drives me nuts because like it's posting a score from one day to the next, Like I think it's just stupid because the golf course could be completely different in the conditions, Like if you play in really tough conditions, like you shoot seventy sixty, play really well and you could shoot seventy two the next day, and really easy conditions that's not necessarily Like it's so
skew flawed in so many ways, the handicap system. It's one of my I think that is a big problem in the game of golf, like one of one of like it like you alluded to pace a play, but also like the concept of like why you're out there playing is.
Too yeah, And I think that's why we have eighteen hundred eighteen hole seventy two hundred dark golf courses. You know, on all of our projects, we know that's what our client expects, that's what the golfer expects because that's what you know, they measured their self against. So you know, there's a real I think it's a real lack of you know, understanding about the game and the competition side of it, about playing a game between you know, two
four guys or two guys. And you know, if we played a competition on a thirteen hole you know, forty two hundred dard golf course, we have a great time. But if you're out there by yourself and you're trying to test your game against you know, what you perceive as a modern you know, modern sized golf course and you got to post your score, all those things are sort of tiling up against know, pay some play and match play and competition and all the things that I
that in the UK you know, really encourages golf. You know, it's a it really opened my eyes living in the UK to see how the culture of golf is so different over there, and uh, you know it, I wish we could do more ohopie match plays, you know, match clubs and really focus on that style of play.
Yeah, I agree, Like, I just like talking about this like makes me want to play alternate shot the next time I play, like in a match, you know, play. I think the idea of four people playing two balls, you know, is so much faster. It's like you could get around and you know, and I know there's some clubs over there that are are strictly for uh four ball clubs.
Yeah, and a lot and a lot of them. Or they'll do it on you know, Saturdays, or you know, always before noon or you know, so they'll they'll I'll put they'll have very you know, a lot of clubs have pretty strict rules about who plays win. So if you're going to play, you know, four Americans playing their own ball, then you can only play after two on a Tuesday, you know. But if you're you know, two old boys from down the street, you know, you can play in two hours on a Saturday morning.
It's amazing because it's like they're just like, these guys get it.
They can play, I want to.
And they're going to look for their ball for twenty minutes if they hit it into the gorse.
What were your favorite courses over there?
You know, I spent most of my time I lived in Surrey, so I played, you know, I really played the sunny Sunningdale and you know Walton Heath and Saint George's Hills. Saint Georgie's Hill is one of my favorites. I really I love playing. I played there a lot. The client I worked for lived at Saint George's Hills, so he had me up there quite a bit to play swim Ley Forth, all of those courses. Swinley Force
is absolutely amazing. New Zealand has one that you know, not a lot of people know about that's really good. And then I played a lot of the English links too, which are you know, Royal Saint George's is fantastic.
Saw.
I don't know how much time you spent down there, but you know, there's a lot of really good courses around London an hour drive from London, whether it's you know, the Surrey courses are out to the coast.
Yeah, that's Michael Clayton said that he evolved golf around the world. He thinks he'd pick if he had to pick one, it would be like.
The London area and there's just so much good golf right around there and the heathlands, and I.
Mean, you talk about important golf, Like I think the Heathland courses are probably the most important of all the golf courses ever built, because they were the first that weren't said that said, golf is okay if it's not on the ocean.
Sure, and you know, and it brought golf to the masses, right to a large population center. So suddenly there's like one hundred and thirty two golf courses in the county sty alone, you know, So it's sort of it brought golf closer to the golfer, so you weren't driving out to the you know, to the links, and you know, so it was and some of those golf courses are just amazing.
If you were designing a municipal course, would anything change in what you did do there versus say, a golf course like Mammoth Doomed.
Yeah, I mean I think that there's you know, there's a time and a place that you can build mammoth dunes, and it's on a site like this where we have plenty of water, and we have plenty of labor to mow the big fairways, and you know, we've we've got the perfect scenario to build a really big golf course, and you know most municipal courses. Obviously, I don't like that. I think given that circumstance, I wouldn't be looking to
build one hundred dark fairways. You know, I think tight and small is okay build a par sixty seven, you know, a five thousand yard golf course on a cool piece of land and you know wherever in la or something, you know, And I think, I think short and fast quick, you know, things that move fast, And I would and I would do walking only, you know, because I think golf carts cause a lot of a lot of issues with pace and play as well.
He makes your job a lot tougher, too much more difficult.
Yeah, when you're trying to build a course that's walking only, like here, for example, you could put it, you know, in the back to right next to the green, right or or behind it, or you know somewhere where you're walking off the green and you are walking right onto the next t box and off you go. So pace
and play is really quick. The second you have cart paths, suddenly the cart path needs to be you know, you don't want it too close to the green right because then your ball might hit it, and so you're moving the cart path far away from the green, and then you got to know you cross the cart path. So if you're walking, suddenly the next tee you know pretty much fifty sixty seventy yards away the car. That's caused a ton of problems with pace of play. People always say, wow,
I'm going to go play in a car. I'll play super fast. It's like I've played just as fast as you. I just won't sit and wait as long as you. I'll hit my ball and walk to it. I think walking municipal golf courses should try harder to have walking, you know, walking only.
What's crazy is a lot of them don't even have.
A walking right, Yeah, here you go. You get a cart with your pizzaimal, I don't want a car.
I rolled up to Southern Pines in the Pinehurst area. It's a cool little core. I talk about a good piece of crap. That's a really good piece of ground. And there's nobody there because it's bad weather, and except that one old lady working in the shop. And I walked in and she's like, oh, that'll be fifty six
dollars or something like that. And she's like, and I don't know if I have a cart tea And I was like, well, I don't want a cart, I want to walk, and she goes well, and she like looked at me perplexed because like all of a sudden, like it was like she didn't even have like she didn't
know what the walking right was. And that to me was like it almost offended me because it was a it's an old school golf course where it's a beautiful walk because the tea is right, like just like you talked about green tea, green tea, green tea, like, and it's a hilly course.
But so it was.
It was a tough walk, but you know, very very walkable.
I think so many courses. A tough walk to me is whence between the green and the tea are far apart, because I get disengaged. Yeah, I'm instantly thinking about something else. Or if I'm walking a hilly golf course, but the hilly part is between the tea and the green. It's funny.
I rarely, rarely, you know, do you feel disengaged. I feel a little tired, but you're anxious to get to your ball because you're in the game, right and the second you put out you want to get back in the game as quick as you can.
I think that's what you hit on. It is like they anticipate walking up the hill. When you're walking up to see what your next shot is, what your lie is, you know, what how close you are to flag, like, what your pot looks like. That all of a sudden takes the hill out of the equation because you're working off of excitement and adrenaline. And I think that's one of the beauties of golf, is that anticipation. I think carts take away from that too.
Completely, because suddenly you're driving over to the you know, you miss half the golf courses. You're on the car back the whole time, and then you're you know, circling around the back of the green, and then you know it's it's yeah that you know. It certainly makes our job much more difficult.
M So, if you could get get rid of any American uh golf habit outside we'll say, outside of carts, what would it be.
It would be not playing match plate. You know, we'd be playing stroke play, everyone putting out their own ball. That's the biggest that's the worst habit I think we have, and it causes all kinds of problems. It's a domino effect, so you know, definitely pace and plays obviously, the pace of play is the biggest thing.
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's pretty sound like a broken record, as I sounded, to start to feel like I'm a broken record when I do these over and over again. So let's let's get into overrated underrated. Okay, all right, template hole highly overrated? What about template holes within your own architecture group?
Oh, we don't, I don't have them. We don't, We don't. You know, we've I know of you know, a Burritz and we built some, but I don't even know if we call them that when we're building you maybe we call them that after, but we don't have holes. Hey remember the third hole you know on that course, let's build that again. That never happens because the land is so different than you know, you really we really tried
to respond to the land. And if you're always if you have a good site and you don't let the land do the talking, then you know you don't need a template hole. Right, you're letting the greens there, well, there's never been a green built there before like that, where it's the site so we maybe and maybe that's a you know, maybe that's a scenario where template holes are have some merit is on a weak.
Safe yeah, like a flat site. They're tried and true. I think yeah, I mean, I think the core principles of golf architecture are exceptionally simple, you know, like what builds a good golf course? And I think the temple holes were great. I think people have the wrong theory on the temple holes, is like they were just principles like not this just because one burritz could be completely different than another, and one road hole can be completely
different than another road hole. But the theory is a very simple and very strong you know, hey, play close to this hazard, gain the advantage, play safe, and you know, in essence, a lot of holes are just a copy of that strategy.
Sure, and I get it, but I've also been around other architects who cannot think about anything. But you know, this is going to be my aupsehole, and then this is going to be, you know, the fourth at Pine Valley, and then this one is going to be like the fifth hole at you know, and and that's all. They only refer to a golf hole that they're going to build referring to some other course, you know, and and it's almost like they're, you know, they're a cover band,
like you know, no original work, like you know. And that's how I feel about temple holes is there's someone else's idea on a certain site. And yeah, they were repeated maybe by you know, C V McDonald and then other people, but it's it's someone else's ideas. It's like a cover band, you.
Know, or a wedding band or a wedding band, wedding bands.
I went and uh.
So when we got when my wife and I got married, we went and you know, saw the wedding bands at wedding and so I got the pleasure of going to a wedding and I was like sober. I never had realized how bad wedding bands are until.
That moment, but then I realized. I thought about It's like, well, if they're really good, they wouldn't be a wedding man, they'd be a real band.
So I mean, I think there's merit. I think there's there's merit to certain people doing the template. Like Bill Core came on the podcast and talked about how Pete Dye changed golf architecture twice, and after Harbortown everybody copied that and it was never the same. And after Sawgrass, everybody copied that, but they were missing the die sauce behind it.
And I think that he was on site. Yeah, he has the same he had. He was the original guy with the sauce being on site.
I think there could be an argument made that Pete Dye is like the most important architect and golf history outside of maybe like old Tom Morris.
It's you know, his his focus. And you know, I haven't been around him, so I'm only speaking from the stories I've heard from other guys. But he was on
site all the time. He wasn't afraid to spend hundreds of days during construction on a project and get his hands dirty in that, you know, that is I think, you know, there's so many architects who are as talented as you know, the group I've spoken about over and over, but they just don't They just they for whatever reason, they just aren't prepared to be there as much as they should be, and their products kind of suffers from that.
And then I mean the idea of not being on site a lot is like yeah, I mean like it's kind of crazy that it even was like a.
Real thing like that, and it still isn't it probably will be for a long time where you know, there's still gonna be a lot of guys drawing grading plans on in their you know, in their office and handing them off to contractors.
Well, it goes against like running a business because like when you're trying to run a business, you're always trying to scale, like how can we do things more efficiently, faster and take on more clients. But I think with architecture, you're in an industry where it's more art base like where you have to like you have to do the world like you can't look at it as like we're going to get as efficient so we can take on
as many jobs as possible. Like there's I think a clear I just don't think it's a You can't have a McDonald's version of golf course architects.
Yeah, absolutely not, not not successfully, you know, not maybe in two thousand and five when they were building five hundred golf courses the year in the US, you know that that model might have worked at least from a business model, but it wasn't producing top one hundred golf courses in the world.
You know, so you've mentioned the rankings a number of times, like do you feel as an as you know, an architect, that that is how your work, like how you judge your work to looking back, No.
I guess you know, when I say top one hundred, I mean probably my own top one hundred. I don't necessarily mean Joe pass Off's top one hundred, you know, Golf magazine or you know, Golf Digests or anyone else's. It does make you feel good when you look at you know, when you build something like amil Sands and it you know it's super high in the rankings, right when that makes you feel good, of course, And when they're not. Yeah, And that's the funny thing. I think
we all love them when we're in them. But the second you build a golf course like Taylor is a good example, I think it's amazing, but it's not in there, so then it pass me off. So you know, you're you're the rankings are by nature, you know, they're it's completely subjective, right, like sure, there's you could probably name you know, you could probably pick fifty golf courses that are amazing and not even rank them one or two, you know, top my top fifty and just here's my
fifty top golf courses. And I think that would probably be a much better way to do it, you know, in groupings rather than one two, you know, because it's so easy to look at seventy three and say seventy three is way better than fifty two. You know, the fifty two ranked one.
Well that's it. I'm in the same about like the idea of putting a number next, Like there's like a clear tiers, you know, and it's like would you rather play? Like? And then I start to think about it. It's like, you know what's better this golf course or this golf course. It's like, well, they're both great, and it's like I, you know, like which one would I rather play on a date? Well, I don't know, it depends on what I'm looking for.
Imagine if someone did that, someone else did that with a different form of art, like what are your top what's the number one sculpture in the world. I mean, that makes no sense, right, It's it's our it's it's from your point of view. It's how you played that day, it's how the weather was, it's how nice the kid at the golf shop. Was it's how good your caddy was? You know, So ranking a golf course, I would say,
is like ranking sculptures. It's it's you know, it doesn't it doesn't really mean that much, unless, of course, you know, one of our courses is ranked highly, and then it's super important.
If you're the number one sculptor, then of course I want to rank. It's uh, what would you what do you think should.
Go into evaluating a golf course?
You know, what should go or what does go? What should go? You know, as you should be able to show up and as if you're gonna if you're if you are going to do you know, be a rank or if you're saying, hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna rank the golf course architecturally, and then you need to do it in a bubble. You know, you need to not think about the guy at the pro shop or the traffic on the way there, or you know, the fact that it was cold that day, or that your caddy was the you know, not the best.
Because the look drives them up. Notts is how you played, how.
You play it. If I played good, it's great, of course, is awesome. If I can't make a pass. You know, it's no where the greens are horrible, and it's you know, it's subjective, you know, and I don't think that you can a lot of people and aren't in in the you know, modern day architects. You know, I'd walked it. I love to walk the golf course, and you know, I really got a feel for it. I never played it, but I walked it. That always sort of I always
think that's a cop out. You know, you didn't play it, but you're going to evaluate it. Even though you never swung a golf club on it. You walked around it. You didn't fully understand the golf course, but you're going to tell me that you have an opinion on it because you walked around. I find that really difficult, and that's a that's a big thing in today's you know,
young kids. Well I went out and walked it. Okay, maybe that's great if you couldn't play it, but played the golf course and evaluate it.
I think I understand the golf course more when I walk it than when I play it.
Might can you give an opinion on, you know, architecturally, how it played.
I like to so I walk with like a wedge, a seven iron, a putter.
So you're playing the all. I don't think you have to play it for a score. I think you have to hit shots on it, and you have to you know, feel the grass and you have to you know, see what happens when it balls back towards the green.
I think, like around the greens is where hitting shots and and but like from tee to green, I pretty much know where I'm going to hit it. And I can stand on a team look at this and look at a shot and be like, oh this is this is a good shot, you know. But I think, like to your point, like to fully grasp it, you need to play. I also don't really think you can judge a golf course one time around.
I agree, like, I know if it's bad, I know if I play it once and I end up saying, you know, like I can usually say, yeah, I'm not ever coming back here. If it's you know, a good golf course, like something like Fine Valley, you know, you're in awe of it the first time you play it, you know, and you need to play it again. Cypru's kind of the same thing. The old course sort of
the same thing. You know, sometimes when when the personality of the golf course is so big, I really think you kind of jaded, you know, and you have to almost play it again to really understand it.
It's funny because like Mammoth is a good example of like I've played it now three times, but I've walked it probably five or six other times, and I've understood it more and more and I've appreciated aspects of it
more and more every time I played it. And like, so it's funny because like my opinion after one round would have been completely different it is now after playing a bunch of times, Like I just understand the golf course more, like you know, like it's a weird golf course in the sense like every hole I feel like out there, every hole I should be like pushing the envelope trying to make a verdict versus so many holes.
I've been conditioned in my life to like, you know, like play conservative, like play and like don't just go after it all round long, like which is I But there are shots out there where like today I was like, wow, I really got to be careful here. But at the same time, it's a different challenge in the sense of like prs are always very attainable for a good player. It's like, you know, like you can if you try and make a par, you're never going to get yourself
really like you can make eighteen pars. It's where you get in troubles when you push for the birdie.
And that's what David and I's real philosophy was here. Let's forget about defend par. Let's forget about let's let's give par away. Let's defend birdie. You know, let's really try to defend a good player from getting a birdie, because that's really what we want. If you try to defend par, then the average guy he's getting bowe. You're a double boge, right.
And that's like why I think the brilliant, like I honestly think that like and at like a fifteen handicaps are universally going to just like absolutely love this place because it's going to be the first golf course that just doesn't beat them over their head all around long, you.
Know, and a lot like gamble sands, I think the good players, like you said, a good player is going to think that they can, you know, score their very best score they've ever scored at mammothudes because they they see that I attainable. Yeah, But once you start pressing on the gas and you start thinking, okay, I'm going to get you know, I got a birdie there, and then I can get another brand, and then you know, you if it's not, you know, no one's going to go out there and get ten birdies. Right.
Making birdies is hard any golf course anywhere.
Right, if it was a flat field three hundred yards long, birdies are still hard. They still up.
It's like you still have to hit exceptional shots. Yeah. Like I tried to drive the tenth green a short part four today and I like lost ball. Yeah, and that was like the killer on my route. It's like I would have shot a really good score if I had lost ball.
Yeah.
That's like that's where I pushed the gas.
There's some punishment, there's some edges. And I think that is if I if I could bottle up architecture, and you know what I think really good architecture is. I think it's bringing the good player, the high handicap or the low handicap player and the high handicap player together as close as you can get them. So, you know,
trying to make it as easy again. The handicap system is set up for the good player in the US right because it's all about your potential, and my potential as an eight handicap is probably you know, an eighty. My potential is that and I you know, whereas normally I'll probably get a ninety and a good player. If you're a single digit handicap, a one handicap, you're gonna shoot around par most of the time.
Well, so this is the interesting thing. It's like for the American system of stroke play, it's very advantageous if you're playing net stroke play. I think it's very advantageous to be a low handicap. But if you take the system and we play match play, the real low handicaps had a huge disadvantage because like their propeessie to not make big numbers is that's like your advantage is like you know, like fifteen is going to make a seven or an eight, But in nash play.
You only lose one.
Yeah, that's why match play is a better system. It is.
I agree hundred percent. I'm I'm a you know, I'm a I think I'm an eight handicap right now, but I could get you know, a snowman or a verdie on any single hole, right, and you're probably you're you're never gonna get a snowman. But it's just as hard for you to verty it as for me. So match play is way better and stroke play you'll probably beat me every time, even net, because there's gonna be two
or three snowman. You know, if I played to my very best potential, then we're even mm hm, because you're gonna pay your potential almost every day. This is it's a you know, it's flawed for the stroke play. So any type of architecture that can bring those two players together more so that it's more evenly matched. I think it's you know, I think that's a winner.
That's that's a great architecture. And match play. Yeah, that's that's the recipe, because match play brings people closer. It's a it's funny, it's it's the archite actually bringing the thing of bringing everybody closer, I think is like the nail on the head. Yeah, because like it you don't like That's the way I feel when I play some of these golf courses that I like to rip on is like it's so boring for me and like you watch a tour like it's just thoughtless, and then you like,
my dad's a seventeen handicap and he played. It's just it's miserable for me to play with him because of how hard it is for him. And I'm spending my whole day looking for golf balls or watching him drop golf balls, like and that is I mean, so is it possible to build a really good golf course without width?
I think the strategy becomes much more subtle. Right, the greens are smaller, so that the strategy is much subtler. And I think, you know, the narrower it gets, the the more the strategy is apparent to a really good golfer, but maybe less apparent to you know, a higher handicap golfer, because they're just trying to hit the fair way. They're not picking you know, which side, or I need to come in from here. Well, the fairy is only you know, eighteen hours wide. I'm just trying to not just trying
to make the grass, you know. So I think they can, it can be a really great golf course, but the strategy, you know, the strategy is much more so so, so I don't think everyone gets to enjoy a high handicapper rarely gets to enjoy the the you know, the strategy of a narrow golf course.
All right, Casey, thanks for coming on.
It's been a pleasure, Yeah, my pleasure.
Andy. Yeah, it would be excited to see you guys next work. I know you got a couple overseas projects, but hopefully sooner. In the America is another one.
Yeah, and hopefully they're all in sand Yeah.
Thanks.
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