I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my ball in a brid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Friday, fridagg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off.
Of the huff.
Hello, and welcome to the Frida Egg Podcast. My name is Garrett Morrison, and today we ask whether golf architecture can help change the culture of the game. Tackling this question with me is Christine Fraser. Christine is a Canadian golf architect who has worked with Martin Houghtree on courses like the Toronto Golf Club, La Hinch in Ireland and Royal Birkdale and Sunningdale in England. More recently, she has teamed up with fellow Canadian architect Jeff Mingay on a
long term renovation at Beaconsfield Golf Club near Montreal. Christine offers a really fresh and necessary perspective, and not just because she's one of the few women in the industry, though it certainly has to do with that. It's also because she has put a lot of thought into the ways that design can promote a more inclusive environment at golf courses. This is something we don't talk about very often because we get caught up in topics like routing
and strategy and esthetics and so on. But golf courses are not just artworks, and they're not just fields of play. They also have a social function. They have an influence on who gets to play and enjoy the game, and it's important. I think that that influence is a healthy one. So that's what we're exploring today, and let's get to it. Here is Christine fraid. So you are in Sweden right now? What are you up to?
Yes, I'm in Sweden. No, it's strictly pleasure. We're here visiting family, So having a little week to ourselves and enjoying the nice, long sunny days.
Awesome. Are you playing any golf?
I did not bring my golf clubs.
Good for you.
Yeah, I need it every once in a while. I think about golf way too often, so this is a nice break.
I totally assume that you were there on a job, but it's good to hear that there is some leisure in your life as well.
Yes, yeah, I'm pretty good at balance that way.
So my understanding, Christine is that your introduction to golf came at a course that your grandparents built in nineteen seventy six called Camden Bray's Golf and Country Club. Could you tell me that story.
I can. It's so interesting and fascinating to me, especially now in the line of work that I'm in, that my grandparents who really knew nothing thing about owning or operating or designing or building a golf club or able to do that. So they bought a piece of architecture, sorry agricultural land to the east of Toronto and just decided that that's what they wanted to do because they imagined a lifestyle of working hard during the golfing months and then having a few months off in the winter
would suit them. And it's still in the family today, and that's where I grew up, and my mom made her career there and my uncles did as well, And so that's my introduction to golf. And I was really able to get to know all aspects of how golf course functions, from the business side of things to the agronomic side of things. So it was a really really impressive introduction and privileged introduction to golf.
How would you describe the course itself.
It's certainly not on any top tens, but it's it's quite unique in the sense I have so much admiration for my grandfather because his vision, which is he was ahead of his time. There there aren't any bunkers. The only things that are irrigated are the teas and the greens. So it's a really minimal impact type golf course in terms of the consumption and in terms of playability. So it's just a community golf course. There's something special about it.
Anyone can play, the green fees are really reasonable, no restrictions on time, and and there's a lot to be said about that type of accessible golf course that I think has influenced the way that I envision golf.
Yeah, I mean that that kind of stuff is more important in a lot of ways than great architecture.
I think so. And if you value accessibility and inclusive inclusivity, then there's a lot to be learned from this type of property.
So when you were growing up up, were there any particular aspects of the operations of that course that you were really interested in or was it all just kind of like, you know, this is what my family is doing, This is.
Boring you know, it was Originally it was the latter, And I think as I was more exposed to different types of golf courses and different models of golf courses and memberships, I really became quite interested in and how a golf course can integrate into the community, and how people react to the golf course, and how a golf course can really be this medium to connect people. And so that's what I found most curious and most interesting is how people engage on a golf course.
How would you describe that? What does it mean? How people engage on a golf course.
It's something that I think about a lot, and to me, I mean, I think, I think I got into golf architecture not because I have any revolutionary ideas about design theory or design philosophy, but just because I'm so fascinated on human interaction and and it's just happened to be the medium that I chose to facilitate that. And and
the best I find the best architectures. That is, when you don't realize how impactful the round was because it was so memorable, or because there was a particular conversation that was so valuable or vulnerable, and it has to do with the things that aren't necessarily written down in the golf architecture books. It has to do with the way that the wind was blowing, or the walk between certain holes allowed you to have a continuation of a conversation.
Nothing that's so tangible, which is which is why perhaps the creativity side of things that I joy allows me to do architecture just kind of get into the more abstract elements of design.
Yeah, I would. I would imagine this has been discussed in architectural circles outside of golf a lot. I don't necessarily know much about it, but there's a way that you can approach architecture as a purely esthetic thing. You get obsessed with the visuals and you know the details of that, or you can approach it through the lens of the human and how humans might interact with what you build. And it sounds like that is what you're most interested in.
That's exactly it. And I have a master's in landscape architecture, and we always we always were talking about the connection between whatever you're designing and the person who's using it, and how people move through it and walk on it and and feel it and touch it, and how you are picking up your tea off the ground and you're touching the ground. Is this like literal? Just these small interactions you have with the thing that you're designing and how that impacts you when you walk away.
Does your family still run the course?
They do? They do.
So who's who's there now? Like and are what are their roles? Is there a general manager and a superintendent and stuff like that.
Typically it was my mother was in charge of the accounts, later gone into a bit of the pro shop gig. My uncle is the bar and restaurant, and then my other uncle is outside on the grounds. So it was a full family business. And my mom's recently retired and she's busier than ever. As that sometimes goes. Oh yeah, but my two uncles are still there every day.
Oh that's fun, all right. So you have worked for Martin Haughtrey, the famous English architect for several years now on projects in Europe as well as in Canada. One course that immediately jumps out to me on your resume with Hatre is La Hinch Golf Club in Ireland, one of the great links courses in the world. Old Tom Morris design renovated by Alistair Mackenzie in the late twenties.
I'm fascinated by the course, but I have never been there, so I'm curious what most impressed you about La Hinch in your time there.
I think we had alluded to it earlier, but it's this fascinating connection between community and golf is what really inspired me about La Hine. There's really no distinguishing where the golf course starts and where it ends. It's just this small community who allows you to walk on the golf course, to access the beach and walk to the bar and between nine's and come back and play. And apart from the architecture, which is some of the best in the world, it is that special thing that you
can't recreate that Lan Hinge has. This 's going to say quat of community engagement and interaction that made the Hinge so special to me, And apart from apart from the golf, it's just the Irish have this really great way of making you feel like you've been friends for your entire life. This this element of hospitality and kindness and generosity that again creates this golfing experience that makes you want to come back and makes you say, wow, that was life changing.
You said that it can't be recreated, and I believe that because that course has been around for a long time and so it has had a long time to establish a unique relationship with its community. But given that you're an architect, do you think about how that might be recreated at say, like a brand new course. How do you create that what has been generated through history at La Hinch? How do you just sort of summon that at a new place.
Yeah, that's a great question and something that I think about a lot is how do we make people feel welcome and how do we invite them in without making
them feel like it's a business transaction. And if I were to stick in my lane in architecture, that's the kind of constant problem that I'm trying to solve of how do we use architecture to make people, particularly in my case, marginalize people feel welcome and feel like they can take up space in the golf course and feel valued to the point where they want to come back and play again. And that's the very basic goal that I pursue.
So at Lahinch, what kind of work were you specifically there to do?
So we did a little short game facility across the road, so it's about a one hundred and twenty yard range just to kind of a teaching facility, warm up facility. And then additionally to that, we did some lot of cations for the twenty nineteen Irish Open, which involves some new bactis and a little bit of fairway tweaking, some
bunker work. But places like Lahinch out they're always looking to become better, and so I was there many times a year throughout my tenure with Hawtrey and just always kind of picking away at it making it better, little things here and there. So there was a lot of small projects that we did throughout the course of five years.
It seems to me that a short game facility can be a great way to connect a community with a golf course. And so in that short game facility that you designed at La Hinch, what were some of the big questions that you had to answer in designing it?
Apart from the logistics of the size of the piece of the land, which was tight. It's really small. There's a football field on the other side, so the logistics of it were quite complex. But things like that are often quite a difficult to sell to some people because a lot of people imagine that if you can't hit a driver, then what's the point And the point the point was to allow and so I'm always just going
back to this. It's just to allow people some time before their round to connect with each other before they play, and to introduce themselves and to have an icebreaker conversation or even just watch other people in the rain hip balls. It's a it's a place where you are interacting with another opportunity to interact with different people while you're warming up and while while you're getting ready for your game.
Yeah, we were talking about this before we started recording, about the the design of an entrance to a course and what that does. And I wonder how you might think that kind of thing through. I'm not sure how much control a golf course architect even necessarily has over the entrance to a course. Sometimes a golf course architect might have input. Sometimes that stuff is just sort of
preordained or designed by somebody else. But what do you think makes for an effective entrance into a golf course? You know, say you're starting in the parking lot and then you walk into the golf course, or maybe not even a parking lot. Maybe it's a train station. Maybe it's just the neighborhood. What makes for a nice transition into the golf space.
I guess I think it depends who you ask, But for me, it's almost a lack of barriers. And I don't think everyone would have that opinion. But it's a continuation of where you're coming from, or it's an easy access point from where you're coming from, and a lot of cases, in particular and more private courses, it's a really subtle transition from where you are to where you're going, so small, discrete signage with nicely concealed entrance gates or
whatever it may be. It's sort of a subtle transition that makes it most appealing to me. And I think the entrance to a golf club is more important than people playing may often imagine it to be, because if you don't really notice it, I think it's a good thing. But if it's a bad entrance, you're going to notice it,
you're going to remember it. There are specific courses, say Toronto Golf Club for example, or even wood Hill in Minnesota, these entrances that wind you through the golf course before you get to the clubhouse, so you have the opportunity to get some sneak peaks at what's to come, and it's a really nice temptation and tease for what's to come later in the day, and you're able to have this pre introduction to the golf course that's really appealing to people.
Yeah, I like that. It puts me in mind of
Tampo in California. I'm not sure to what degree that entrance was designed by the Olmsteds, because the Olmsteds did the master plan for the entire community, but certainly there is You're driving in and you see most of the front nine really before you get to the clubhouse, and so you get these wonderful kind of flashes of great crazy greens and bunkers before you actually get to the place where you're checking in and starting to play golf, and it does kind of transition you into golf in
a great way.
The anticipation that you have is building, and the excitement is mounting, and it's just it's wonderful, all right.
So I'd like to get into our main topic here, which is the ways that golf course design can change the culture of golf. This is something that you talk about quite a bit and so I guess the first question I'd have is what are the main things about golf culture that you would like to see change. I'm sure we all have our individual things, but just from your perspective, what are the things that are most in need of addressing.
Yeah. I've been around golf for most of my life and I am not the target market. I am not the audience that golf was built for. And I often feel that golf does not love me as much as I love love it, so that there's this constant sort of tension between traditional golf culture and where I fit into that as a woman, And I imagine that if I feel that way, other people might feel similar to
that as well. And so it's this idea of addressing how do we address a class is you, a gender issue, a race issue that golf inevitably has, And the method that I know how to do that is through design, and if we can simplify it, it's just how do we make these marginalized groups feel welcome and feel invited to the game so that they want to come back and they want their children to play, and they feel like it's a safe and conducive environment to spending their
time and I don't have the answer to that yet. It's a process, it's a pursuit. But I think it's interesting and I think I'm always considering that. And if we ask these people what they want and what they want their experience to look like on a golf course, we might find some interesting answers. It's just that idea of inviting them to speak and have a say and take up space on the golf course.
So for a lot of people might be obvious that these are things that golf needs to change, at least I hope that's obvious to people, but it might not be obvious how golf course design can help change them. Right, So why don't we just kind of go through things one at a time. You know, we don't have to tackle the entire problem all at once. We can just talk about some specific design elements that might help a
little bit. And so, what is one specific element that a golf course architect can incorporate into a course that you think would make the culture of that course more inclusive?
Yeah, I think we can. We can go from tee to green and find a lot of problems with golf course design and how their arch istracturally structured for anyone with adoptive needs. We see a lot of stairs on
golf courses. We see a lot of steep slopes, We see a lot of curved cart paths that are all barriers for people with mobility issues that visual visual needs to come in and feel like they were considered it, and they feel like they were they belong in the golf course, and and to give them this equitable experience of planning the golf course, we need to consider the slopes, climbing up to tea boxes and and just really ask them what they need on a golf course to be
able to play it and enjoy themselves and be challenged appropriately and have fun and have a similar experience to someone who who plays golf from the tips and so looking at it through that lens, there's a lot that golf courses can improve upon. We have safety standards for the clubhouse for adaptive needs, but you step outside and the golf course is something entirely different.
Those are laws right with the clubhouse. There are a lot of laws that might govern that, but not as much with the golf course, which is a bit of a mystery to me.
Absolutely, And you know, we don't necessarily have to recognize these things unless we ask so why not see what this particular group of people require on a golf course. And I don't think anything that they're asking for would negatively affect the experience of anyone else who's playing the course. So it's just an enhancement of a course that you already have to invite more people into play.
And this is a matter of eliminating these kind of sudden, these abrupt jumps from one grade to another, I mean, just to kind of get right down to it. Having stairs instead of just a gradual slope is an issue for a lot of people. And I'd also imagine that cart path design factors into this as well. And this gets into a bit of a touchy issue because cart paths can affect the architectural integrity of a course, no doubt, but they need to be there for a certain group
of people. And so I want or to you, what what does a well designed cart path look like? What are the criteria for that?
Yeah, it's a really it's a really interesting idea because there's a balance there, and we want to have a cart path as much as possible to allow people with adaptive and mobility needs to be able to use the golf course whenever they want. So Visually, we have to be conscious of how how much the cart path is coming into our view and into play. And secondly we don't want it too far away so that these people have are making you know, twice as long as a trip to get to the middle of the fairway as
everyone else. So there's a balance there. Ideally there would be cart paths that we don't see that are still functioning for anyone who needs them. It's hard, it's tough, it's definitely tough, and maybe there's a balance where there are specific holes where we need car pass because of the drainage issues or sloped issues that we can hide. But additionally to that, we perhaps we can avoid using curbs on the cart path, even though they're esthetically pleasing.
Curbs don't allow people who are using buggies or solo riders to get up onto the faraway when and where they want, so it takes them longer to get to places because of that barrier.
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be using. It was genuinely eye opening. So Frida Egg listeners, here's the deal Club Champion is offering between now and the end of this year. You can use code Frida Egg to get twenty percent off the cost of your Club Champion fitting with the purchase of a club. That's code Frida Egg all one word, all right, Back to the episode. Now, let's talk a little bit about tea positions. We've discussed this topic before on the podcast. We did so with Sarah mass last year, but I think it's
an endlessly complicated topic. What are the main gas that you see with the positioning of teas at golf courses.
Generally they're pushed to the margins of the golf course, and that comes with shade issues from the trees that are often lining the teas, or sunlight issues because of those trees as well. And the quality of turf just is doesn't match any other tea on the golf course. It's it's so degraded and worn out that it becomes really unpleasant. And and the forward tees are generally the last ones to get any financial boosts, so they degrade.
And they're smaller too, right, which would which would have to mean that they'd wear and tear a little faster.
That's it. That's it. And they're and they're often not level, so the places that you're able to put the markers are usually in the same spots too often. And so again the war is just it just they take a beating unlike any of the other teas on the course, so that there's a lot of playabilities that come with pushing teas to the side of the hole with shade and sunlight and airflow and where because.
Of that, how about the distance of a hole? You know, something I see a lot is that the forward tees just sort of like ten yards in front of the middle ties, which is ridiculous because that's not the spread of people's distance. But you know, say you have just a regular old four hundred yard par four from the
back tees on that hole. I know there are considerations for how the hole is designed and shaped and things like that, but generally, how far forward do you think the most forward tees need to be if the back tees are at four hundred yards?
Yeah, So, as you said, there are a lot of things to consider when choosing the position of a forward tee, elevation of the fair way of the tea, of the green angle, hazard positioning, all of those things. But generally for forward tees, we would say for a part for Part four, three hundred and forty yards would be the longest we would go. So that's a long part four
for players playing the forward tees. A long part five would be four hundred yards, and a long Part three would be one hundred and forty yards, So those three one forty three, forty four hundred are pretty general markers that we we would use to base a forward T program off of. So four hundred yard part four not overly long, not drivable, so some are around three twenty would feel good to me?
Gotcha? Okay, So let's talk about some other factors. What what are? What is another design element that you think can help, you know, kind of change the culture of golf.
Yeah, I just I go back to thinking about my own experience on the golf course, and it often so often stems from the opening interaction you have with the pro shop or the starter. Uh and and even before that, for me, it's I don't particularly enjoy having to look up how many inches my skirt has to be before I go and play. Don't particularly like the thought of
a man deciding that for me. But so there are all these these things that women in particular have to consider when you enter a golf course anywhere, from from what you have to wear to what rooms you're allowed to enter and what teas you should play. And then interaction with people often dictate how your round is going to go. And I don't know how many times this starter will just point me to the red teas and say the lady's teas are up there, and you know
that it's problematic. That's a problem. It's assumptive, and it doesn't it doesn't do golf traditional golf tradition, any favors. And so this, I think it starts from the beginning. We have to look at how we're what language we're using on the scorecard. Are we referring to the red teas or the forward tees as the ladies teas? Are we rating the golf course from all of the tea's for the women, or just the forward teas and the white tea's or the middle te's and it goes on
from there. Teas are a big one. As we discussed, fairway lines are really kind of low hanging fruit if I were to audit a golf course on how to make it more inclusive and accessible for more people, in the sense that it's all about considering people who can't consistently get the ball in the air. So of course it's women, but it's also juniors, it's also seniors, it's anyone, it's beginners, anyone who can can't consistently get the ball in the air, how are they navigating the golf course?
What are they traversing? Are there? Are there many carries, water carries or natural waste bunker carries, and so the faraway lines come into play in a lot of that. So if you have sort of a scalloped faaraway line that comes in and out and in and out arbitrarily, it's often quite penal to people who can't lift the ball out of the rough because you're going from rough
to rough to rough and it's just a slog. We can also look at the entrances to the green, how wide they are, and generalizing if you're able to get the ball in the air consistently, you're flying it onto the green, in particular in North American parkland style golf. So widening an approach to a green probably wouldn't have too much effect on your game, but it would have a really great positive impact for those of us who are hitting three woods into par fours.
Does firmness play into this?
Oh yes, I love this question. Firm and fast is like is the best? The firmer, the faster, the better I love it. So, as I mentioned earlier, Camden doesn't have irrigated fairways, and maybe I'm super biased because I grew up on a course it didn't have irrigation, So it just it just allowed me to become such a dynamic player because the golf course was so dynamic depending on the season and the weather conditions, and so you
had to be pretty creative with your shots. And I think this translates to any golf course that firm and fast gives the opportunity for people who needed a little bit more yards to get it, and it also challenges the better players because there was thinking about angles into the green and so having them control their their distance so that they can have a more advantageous second shot into the green.
It's a win win, yeah, And you know you're talking about Camden Brays. This course is in Canada, which is not traditionally thought of as the home of firm and fast, but it just shows that firm and fast is not just something that you get on the links land. It's something that can be developed anywhere. You might just have to sacrifice a little bit of what we would normally consider to be a well conditioned course, whether that's greenness, lushness,
a lot of water, et cetera. Et cetera. So you're saying, in other words, that firmness can be you know, you can get some kind of firmness just about anywhere if you have the right approach.
Yeah. Absolutely, And I think a big element of that is sort of educating people on what the repercussions of lush, green fair ways and rough is and how that impacts the bottom line of the golf course and how it impacts your playability of the golf course, and just kind of reassessing this golf culture of green is better.
So this gets into environmental issues sort of, right. The maintenance practices obviously are very related to the environmental sustainability of a golf course. But I'm curious specifically about where you see the intersections between environmental sustainability and the social function of a golf course. How might those two meet if that makes sense? Does that question make sense?
Oh, you tell me after I answered it, you think I understand.
I'm I'm totally sure it makes sense to me. Yet that's why I ask.
There's no guarantee that golf is permanent, and there's this idea that financial sustainability is related to environmental sustainability, because what is valuable to the younger generation will decide where they spend their money and how they consume product. And should a golf course become too indebted to its water consumption or its herbicide use, people will forget about golf
and put their money elsewhere. And I think, in particular these marginalized groups that I'm talking about, environmental sustainability or consciousness is top of mind at all times, and so for golf to not address that and think about that and implement that will be detrimental to the future of golf.
And you're talking about this as kind of an optics issue, which is obviously very important. The reputation of golf environmentally is going to be important to its future popularity. But it also strikes me that environmental sustainability might affect the affordability of golf. Right, the more water you have to use, the more expensive your golf course is going to be to play, The less people are good, the less you know, the fewer kinds of people who are going to be able to play the course.
Yeah, that's exactly it. And it goes the other way as well, as you just said, is if we're pumping all of this money into purchasing water that's inevitably only going to become more expensive. Then we are reducing the accessibility because our green fees are going way up and our membership deser are going way up because the cost of maintaining a golf course has increased so much, and
the climate will dictate. No, the climate won't dictate. We will dictate how our golf course is able to change and shift with that climate, rather than enforcing what we deem as high standard golf course onto the way that our climate is going.
So, what is an example of a course that you think really nails the social aspect of design? What comes to mind? First?
When is it park Easy? They nailed it. They've done everything so well, And that's a great example of what we're speaking of because they used pretty basic golf design concept traditional golf concepts to create this experience that is socially relevant and valuable and offers a lot of different type of people access to golf. They've done such a great job with it.
Anything else come to mind?
Yes, there's a really cool municipal golf course in Toronto. It's called Dentonia Park. It's eighteen holes, they're par three and the pro shop is in the subway, so you can catch a subway from downtown Toronto from Dundask Square, put your clubs on the subway, get off at Victoria Park station, and you walk out and you're at the golf course. And there's just something so special about that, about the accessibility that people will have to access the
golf course. And it's par three, so you don't have to invest in in your driver or woods just yet if you're if you're learning how to play, it's not a huge financial investment. And it's just super fun. And and they've done a really great job of making golf a part of the community there.
What's the course itself?
Like, Uh, it's nothing special, it's just just the golf course. But that's not what makes it memorable or important. It's like the ability to play this golf course with someone who's new at golf, a professional who just wants to get away from their country club. It's it's it's just so such a mixed bag of skill level, demographics, ages, I mean, you name it. It's just you'll never see
the same people there twice. In terms of like, it's not it's it's not homogeneous in the type of people you see at the golf club, and it's just there's something really special about that about how accessible it is because there's a putt and green that's open to anyone. You don't have to play golf. You can just go and hang out with your mates and have a beer and there's no expectations. And it's that experience that I'm always trying to bottle and replicate.
It's a short course, right, it's all par three's, and I'm not sure how long the longest hole is. But there's a kind of total experience to what you're describing, because if the pro shop is in the subway, then what you're telling people is you can come here on the subway. You bring your clubs, but you're not going to bring fourteen clubs. Probably, you're not going to bring your staff bag. You're going to bring a slim Sunday bag or something like that, and you can play this
golf course. And it's all kind of linked together that way. If it were an eighteen hole, full regulation course, it might not work in the same way, right.
No, it wouldn't at all. And it's that combination of being financially accessible, logistically accessible, and the playability of the golf course is really soft and accessible, and all of those things combined create for this cool experience that is just so welcoming and inviting to non traditional golfers.
And you know something I've been thinking about a lot lately having young kids. And you know, I'm not necessarily saying that families like mine aren't underrepresented demographic in the game. I don't think that's the case. But I have come to appreciate courses that have accommodations for young kids that make it possible to bring a young family to the golf course and go have fun. I've come to really
appreciate that. And you know that there is there are some really specific things that can be done that can help that. One thing that I saw at goat Hill Park in near San Diego is that they have this set of really far forward I forget what they call them. They had a charming name for them, but really really far forward tease where you could just imagine little kids going up and whacking a ball toward the green and that would be part of their experience of the course.
So you were it was inviting you to bring along your three or four year old, which is super rare at golf courses. And I wonder if that's something that you've thought about before, what the kind of family experience at a golf course might be.
Yeah, and that's another great example of how the social equity we have can be applied that we strive for can be applied to a golf course of how do we make an inviting for families to come out and use the golf course so that this this sport is generational and we encourage more people and as many people to play as we can. So that's a really great consideration.
So we've mostly talked about public golf courses so far because that is where these questions are most pressing. But a lot of the work that architects get these days is at private clubs, and so I wonder, what does inclusive design look like at the club level? How do you practice that when you're given a commission at a private club.
For me, it's basically just a full audit of the experience of a woman on the golf course and how they navigate the golf course and what's lacking on the
golf course. And it might be washrooms on the course that are available, and it might be a full forward t program, and I think what I really love to do is just be a voice for the women membership and the women contingency at a club to make sure that their needs are met at the end of the day when we deliver this final master plan that's going to dictate the direction of the club in the next five years, that the women's voices are heard and the
perspective is valuable. So mostly time is forward tease and and redesign of the ferry lines and the tea boxes and the tree management that comes with that. And it's also a bit more of the logistical aspects of what does a scorecard look like, what's the language we use in the scorecard? Are there enough restrooms that I'm the course, that kind of thing. So it's kind of full picture inside, outside, hardscape, softscape everything.
I believe you're doing some of this work right now at Beaconsfield Golf Club A, which is a Stanley Thompson course outside of Montreal. You're you're on this project with Jeff Mingay, who's who's a friend of the pod, A great guy, a really talented architect, and uh so my understanding, I'm not sure where I read this. It was a while ago. But my understanding is that you've had meetings with the women and the membership that that this has
been part of the process at that club specifically. If that's if that's happening, how is that process going?
Yeah, that is happening. And one of the first things I did when we got that commission was go and play in Ladies Day with all of the women and just get to know them and make a human connection and play the golf course and experience the golf course from the teas that they generally play, and it becomes very apparent, very quickly that there are issues with the way that the golf course is set up playing from
the forward tees. So we were able to spend a few days together and anyone who wanted to participate, women girls were able to do so, and it was just mostly a conversation about how their needs are being met on the golf course and then how and then it's my job to translate all of that into the final plan.
So it's going really well, and we're on the final stretch and we have a Stanley Thompson like coming up, or we're just giving Jeff and I are going to the club and going to tell them how cool Stanley Thompson is and why it's so important that they retain that history. And again, it's just it's just putting putting faces together and meeting people and interacting with people, and people will tell you what they need and you just have to listen.
Christine, thank you so much for taking time out of your Swedish vacation to talk to me. I really do appreciate it and I'm looking forward to seeing what you do next.
Grett, thanks for having me. I appreciate your curiosity.
This episode of the Friday Podcast was edited by Meg Atkins. If you've been enjoying the pod, do us a favor and leave a rating and review in iTunes. That's a simple and very effective way support what we're doing. We'll be back later this week with the fourth installment of our Abandon Dunes Deep Dive series, in which Andy and I have a rousing discussion of Tom Doaks Pacific Dudes. See you then, and thanks for listening.