I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball in a frid Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Friday Egg, Friday, Frida Frida Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course.
Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Kyle Nathan and we'd like to welcome on Golf Channel personality former PGA Tour winner and author of The Anatomy of Greatness, Brandal Chamblie Brandle. How's it going today, I'm fabulous. Nice to join you guys, Kyle Andy. I follow you guys on Twitter. I enjoy your work, So it's nice sit down and talk a little golf with you guys.
Absolutely, thanks for stopping by.
Yeah, real pleasure. I'm sure you're happy to get out of Chicago and come up here to the PGA Merchandise Show this week. It's like the whole world of golf is descended upon this spot. So it's a it's a it's an entertaining and vibrant week.
Yeah, it's there's an eclectic group of people out on that floor.
Yes, there is everybody from last year when I went. You know, you run into every sort of entrepreneur you you could you could imagine, you know, and they'd all have some gadget that they'd spent ten years on, and you know, you try it and you're like, yeah, there's absolutely validity to this. You know, you know a way to go and you know, next thing, you know, ten of a merchant house, and the next thing ten just like, oh my gosh, I wouldn't have time to try all
these things out. But it's there's so much energy there and you realize that, you know, the world of golf, you know, there's so much invested in it, time, resources, money, passion, and everybody with any sort of pass is here this week. It's there's two places where the world of golf really congregates, maybe three here this week, PGA Merchandise Show, Augusta and the Open Championship. Seems like everybody in the world goes to those three events.
I think something that is often overlooked with golf, and it is shown here through all like these gadgets, is that golf's unlike any other sport where you have an inverse relationship between like PGA Tour fans. So you figure there's probably like three million, four million people that regularly
watch the PGA Tour, but twenty five million golfers. But if you look at the NBA, you have hundreds of millions of fans and there's probably only about a million people that actually play basketball regularly.
Yeah, that's a good point. You know, same thing is probably true with football. I mean, who plays football once you get out of high school? And yet you know it's you know, as they said in the movie, that they've got a day of the week. You know, golf is different. You know, to play it is is wonderful because you get to get outdoors and you get to know people, even your own family, in a way you
don't befoor. But to watch it on TV, well it's it's not loud, nobody's running into each other, it's not violent. You know, when I've fallen asleep more times than you know, watching golf telecast is what I do not anymore because I have to pay attention to it and to talk specifically about it. But you go home, you put the golf on, you'd fall asleep somewhere in the front nine. You'd wake up when they're on fourteen or fifteen, you go get a play to nachos, and you come back
and watch the end of it. It was like, what was better than that? You know, you can't fall asleep to a football game.
That's something I always say. It's one of my favorite things is how you can just fall asleep on the couch and wake back up and you're.
Like, are they're still make three birdies? Exactly? But now now I can go back and see how they made it. Before I go, I have no idea. I've been asleep for an hour and a half. How the hell that guy make three birdies in a row? Now you know, I have shot link on my computer, So I go back. I'm like, oh god, he did, so where is that shot? I got to see it? Then of course you can go to Twitter and find it because somebody will post it.
Yeah. So to kick things off, we had a big week on professional golf with three big name Euros winning and would love to if the Ryder Cup was played today, who would you pick to win?
Well, it was played today in Paris, I'd probably pick Europe. Ye. I was driving around the other day and you know, something came on the radio about the US was going to dominate, and look, I mean, they've got an unprecedented number of young players. But you start to think about Europe, John Rahm and Tommy Fleetwood and Roy mackerel and Sergio Garcia,
John Peters, mean Rose, justin Rose. It looks like Paul Casey's going to play on that, you know, I mean, nobody would be surprised if Paul Casey made the team. And I mean those are just off the top of our head, you know. If you start to go down a little further, like, oh gosh, she's the hell of a player, and you think they're going to be in Paris, they haven't won there since. They have won on four
and solo of the US since nineteen ninety three. So I'd pick Europe, you know, I would, you know, I you know, I don't think it's a borgone conclusion that the competition is over. I don't even know where those thoughts come from. I think they're preposterous.
I tend to agree with you. I would think I give him the choice. Personally, I would take Europe today, and you know, one of their leaders is obviously going to be John Rahm, who Andy has been a personal fan favorite of for about a year now. How long until we start talking about John Rahm as the best player in the world.
Well, it's it's coming. You know, I can't imagine that he's going to topple Dustin Johnson off at the top spot for a while. But John Rom's in his early twenties. Dustin Johnson is sneaking up to his mid thirties, so you know, he has a sort of a shelf life there. His skills will start to deteriorate soon. You know, within a year or two, he'll he'll lose a little something off his fastball, and you know, it's just happens. And John ram is, you know, he's got another decade in
his prime and he's got everything. You know, he really does. He's got everything. He's got the sort of savoy fair he's got the the arrogance which is so important, and the moment doesn't freeze him. You know, he didn't need an apprenticeship in the game of golf, which is so rare. It seems like we're getting more and more of that though. You know, Jordan Speth didn't need an apprenticeship. Roy McRoy
didn't need an apprenticeship. Those are you know, that's three in the last seven years that have just come out of nowhere and immediately looked like they were world class players. You know, that's that's rare. Those players don't come along very often. That's why we were blown away at Tiger and Phil. So John Romill be the number one player in the world at some point would surprise nobody.
Andy and I talked about yesterday about the level of consistency he's played with, which I mean he's in the top ten fifteen literally every single week, and who the last player to be as consistent as he has been, And the only name we really could come up with was Tiger.
Well that's about right. Yeah, I mean if you look at if you look at his ascendency to where he's at in the world rankings. It's of course when you start out, you don't have points falling off because you haven't played any so you're just gaining them in the world rankings. But yeah, you're right, I mean, not like Tiger, nobody like Tiger, but more like Tiger than Justin Thomas, you know, I mean, even just Thomas was a heck of a player, but nobody. You just don't see someone
come along like a John Rahm. Yeah, you know. I always look at what intrigues me is where these players come from and how they play. It's not so much what they do, it's how they do it. And so when I look at Saya John Rahm and you think, how did he get here? How did he arrive on the on the scene with such it's not unprecedented. It's precocious really, because you're just not supposed to do those things. We saw it come up with Tiger, but generally you're
just not supposed to do those things. There's been thirty one players that have ascended to the number one spot in the world. I am in the rankings, every one of them. You'd look at them and you go wow. You know. I go back and I've read about every one of those players, every single one of them. The very first one was Richie Ramsey back in two thousand and seven. And you go back and you read and there, can't miss, can't miss, He's number one of the world.
Can't miss, no way he's going to miss. But of those thirty one, there are only nine that have managed to win PGA Tour events. Roy McRoy, Jordan Speth, Ricky Fowler, Danny Willett, Michael Thompson, Danny Lee, Hadeki Matsiyama, Patrick Cantley,
and John Rumm. Now, of those nine, most of them, with the exception of Danny Willett, well, all of them, with the exception of Danny Willett, were either taught themselves to play, or they learned to play with just some local teacher around their area, and they never deviated from that. So and I'm not saying, and here's the fine point of it, I'm not saying that the information that everybody else is getting is bad at all. It's good information. I go back and I look at it, and I
read it. It's good information. But we're in an age where there is so much information that it blows the circuits of players. I was involved in the very very same thing. I see it. I see a player, he comes out, he's the best player in the world, and he's got all this information, he got all this access. He changes coaches, he changes coaches, he changes coaches, he changes coaches, and the next thing you know, they're nowhere near the player that they were. So here's John Rohm.
No one would teach that golf swing. No one just came out of nowhere, and he doesn't play with the sort of timidity that somebody does who's constantly looking at a screen and feeling like he needs to change something. So there is you know that I pay attention to that. That matters to me because how do you get the best out of an athlete? How do they play their best? Is it with information or is it with freedom? More times than not, it's with freedom.
That's really interesting. It sounds like feel and I think maybe the ability to adapt because you know your own swing so well sounds so important.
Well that's true, but you know, if you're think about it, it doesn't matter. You pick the player. We go look at a video screen. With the exception of Adam Scott, you can find a fault in their golf swing very quickly. It doesn't matter wherever they're at. You'll find a fault with their grip, their takeaway, some point in their backswing, their transition. I can pick it apart, so can every other teacher. Okay, we can pick it apart. We can
find fault with it. Now, if you're looking for perfection, swing, perfection, everything, perf we're gonna get perfect. There's this, there's this, there's this, and you sit there and you're like, well, you're not quite there yet. You're not quite there yet. And every time you look at that video, you're reminded of something that's inadequate about your move. In time, that timidity grows, you lose your confidence and you're seeking, you know, perfection.
If when you see perfection, you're literally seeking something that does not exist. You're chasing something that doesn't exist. John Ram is not chasing perfection. He's chasing wins. He's going somewhere with his game. A lot of people are trying to go somewhere with their golf swing. And that's the fine point of it.
So in your own golf game, I know you're, you know, about as knowledgeable about the swing as anybody. Did you find yourself trying to perfect the swing too much?
I did? You know? I was a great player in college, one of the two or three best players in the country. You know, I was extraordinary. I could hit it far, I could hit it long, high, straight, curve it any direction. I was amazing. But when I, for whatever reason, when I got out onto where, all of a sudden, you're surrounded by people that have great knowledge of the golf swing, and and they're just there, They're around you constantly, and inevitably you start talking to them, and then what they
say makes sense. You know, that makes sense, So you try it, and then you try it and it doesn't work, or it does work, and then you try it and the next thing, you know, the golf swing I played on the tour with for a better part of fifteen years looked nothing like the swing I had in college. You know, I didn't even I go back now. I look at my swing in college, and I look at the swing I was playing on the tour with them,
like they're not even the same person. I'm I now swing like I did in college, and I swing that way only because I know now that that is the way to swing a golf club. That all the things that I was being taught were wrong. I mean, if they were doctors, they should be sued from malpractice. They were just wrong, out of their minds wrong. So I I you know, I lived it. You know, I went to many of the top one hundred teachers, there's many of them, studied their ideas and then took them out
and tried to make them work. And I'm I was an athlete. I could do anything. I could make anything work. And that's what I see. If you get out on tour, if you're good enough to get out on tour, you're extraordinary. You're an extraordinary athlete. You can do anything. You take me to a fair, we walk away with all the big toys, you know, and every tour players that way. They can throw balls, they can catch balls, they can move any So I can make anything work, and so
can tour players. So you know, you're convinced through your own athleticism and your ability to do things, that there might be merit to whatever it is you're trying. You know, with me, it was rotate the face, keep the club head outside your hands, resist with the turn, squat down in the right leg, feel the tension in the right leg, you know, snap, drag the club on the way back,
and then quickly change direction. All these things. Next thing, you know, I'd go play with my buddies and they'd say, well, you're a change of direction is quick. Your backswing's not as long. Slow it down, And You're like, well, yeah, yeah, I guess it is because I'm not turning, because I'm being told time and time again that I can hit it further without a turn because I build tension, you know that. And that's why I wrote and continue to write about that topic, is because it still pervades in
the game of golf. It's still everywhere in the game of golf. I watched TV and I just see players restricting their turns, and I think it's just at some point they'll figure it out in their lives. It's wrong, but the thought still pervades the game of golf.
It's funny. I'm not really I don't think about my golf swing that much. But since I started going to an instructor like eight years ago. He's a young guy, he's a buddy of a buddy, and I go there. I see him like a couple times a year. But we've got just a few things we work on. I never look at my swing on video and I'm playing the best golf of my life.
Well that I mean that. That is a great teacher, you know, and they're don't get me wrong. There are a lot of great teachers out there, a lot and the genius of a great teachers that they can take everything they know and boil it down to something very simple, like you go get a lesson. They're not trying to show you how smart they are. They're just trying to
help you become a better golfer. And you know, it can be as simple as you know, fill your hands on your right shoulder going back and on your left shoulder going to That could do it. You know, it's just as simple as that. Anything. You know, they don't they don't need to elaborate anymore. And then they certainly
don't need to put your golf swing on video. Hank Haney told me the entire time he worked with Tiger Woods, I was had from two thousand and four to six seven years, six years, he only put his golf swing on the video. A handful of times they didn't. They didn't use video as a general rule. They would just talk about shots, you know, and and having a fluency of what Hank calls the nine shots.
It's uh, do you think that track man has you know, diminished the naturalness of golf?
Well, you know, track Man is is interesting. I have it in the past, called it a toy, and you know, the more accurate word is a luxury. It was a luxury. I would say it came about. You know, it started being pervasive on the PGA Tour in two thousand and six, and it's gone from being a luxury to being a necessity, you know, like your computer and your cell phone in a microwave and a TV. Initially they were luxuries, luxuries
and now they're necessities. And I get it. If you're building equipment, there's a need for precision, the precision that you get from track Man, and I get it from a scientific standpoint of trying to understand exactly what's going on. That precision is needed. You need that, okay, and track Man gives you that. But the disconnect starts to happen when what is what a teacher needs it for precision in understanding what's happening in the golf swing, but it's
not essential to a player. It has not been demonstrated to me that it has improved play on the PGA Tour if you go back and look in two thousand and six, when track Man first arrived on the PGA Tour twenty seventeen, so over a decade, players are more inaccurate off of the tee. They hit it further away from the hull. You know, scoring average has improved point two percent of a shot, so two tents of a shot. But most of that improvement, almost all of it is
from their improvement on the greens. It's not from what the agronomy exactly. You're breeding my mind and better strokes agronomy. But what they're doing tee to green is not better, it's worse. They are hitting it further, no question about that. And maybe that's due to the observation that launch angle, optimizing launch angle and spin rate, and the idea that when you get on track man, people will talk about maximizing your length. Say to maximize your link, you have
to hit up on it. Okay, that's in any video you'll watch on track Man, they'll talk to They'll say, in order to maximize your link, you need to hit on it. And I think that's important to amateur golfers, no question about it. You know most of them can hit up on it and pick up ten twenty thirty yards just like that. But in professional golf, you won't hear anybody say to maximize accuracy, you need to hit down on it slightly with your driver. Nobody will say that.
They won't go there. But if one is true, shouldn't the opposite hold true. So, and the reason they won't is because there's no doubt on that they don't know. They don't know if hitting one degree down on or two degrees down on it actually does make you hit it straighter. But in my mind it does. So I think across the board you have people trying to hit it as far as they can by hitting it high
with little spin. So they're three yards longer over a decade, but they hit it more in the rough, a fair amount rough, and they're further away from the hole, so they're not It's not essential that a player use it to get better because it hasn't made them better. Yeah, and we're talking we're not talking about one or two years. Here were over a decade. Four hundred professionals are carrying
track man's with them right now. Four hundred carried around with them, and you know, it's not clear that it's made them better.
Matt Fitzpatrick was on the No Laying Up podcast last week and he actually talked about how in the middle of last year he was chasing, trying to really get the most out of his distance, and the performance like he had a string of bad, really bad performances and he went back to, you know, hitting fairways. He realized
how important it was for him to hit faaraways. And I think that's something that gets overlooked with guys that aren't mega long, is it's so important for them to hit fairaways because that's they get there's such a disadvantage in the rough they missed the fairway.
So true, and you know, a fine point there for everybody is that when you get on track man inevitably the video goes, well you could hit it further if you hit it higher, Well, how do you hit it higher? You can just move the ball up a little bit. But inevitably it goes with either leaning your hips towards you know, moving your hips towards the target and changing your acess tilt where your you know, your your upper body leans backwards, or you change your release pattern. Either
way you're changing something for a few extra yards. And if you don't have the power to hit it three ten, three twenty, it's very important. And Matthew Fitzpatrick doesn't need you need to find fairways. Again, you don't hear I don't hear many people and I go online and I watch them all. I watch their lessons. All these teachers, I just click on their lessons and I watch them and I listen to them, and I take notes, and
I don't hear them talking about maximizing accuracy. I hear them talking a lot about maximizing distance, and then you know, obsessing about path and face angle. And they they will say, you go listen to them. They'll say, these are new ball flight laws. Like nobody knew this stuff before. Paul Runyon was a heck of a player back in the thirties and forties. He wrote a book and in that book he talks about if the club's going down the path is to the right, if the club's going up
path is to the left. He knew it eighty years ago. He wrote about it eighty years ago. You know, I don't need to spend twenty five thousand dollars on a machine that's going to tell me that if I'm descending, my path is going to the right. You know what I used to do when I hit punch shots, I aimed left. I aimed left because when I hit punches they would go to the right. I've pretty much figured that because I was steeper hitting a punch shot, the
path was to the right, so I aimed left. Do you know why most golfers in the history of the PGA Tour have aimed left off of the t because they're hitting one degree down on it. Generally speaking, a lot of them are hitting it, hitting more up on it now for distance, but they were hitting down on it, and they knew that they were hitting down on it. I mean maybe they didn't use those words, but they knew that when they tried to aim straight, the ball would start right, so they just opened up.
I remember watching a pregame show where you said most of the great ball strikers and golf aimed left off the tee especially, and it's always stuck with me. And since I started aiming left, I've driven the ball a lot better.
Well. Aim and left is it allows you to do so many things. You know, it allows you to build a nice brace into your right side going back and push off you know, your right leg, but it also allows you to clear faster and open up, which which holds off your release, and it gives you a more stable release through the ball. But all those things tor pros used to do instinctively.
So speaking of technology and track man, obviously technology is a hot topic, not only this we in Orlando, but all across the PGA Tour. Where do you see the game evolving from here and with you know, obviously the golf ball and the clubs getting stronger and more powerful. Will PGA Tour courses be able to hold up over the testimony?
Well, the line in the sand has been drawn. You know, there's something known as the rebound effect in the face. The drivers, you guys would know what it's called. Cor that line is drawn, you cannot have a face with any more rebound in it going forward. The volume of a head, the line in the sand is drawn, it can't get any bigger than four to sixty ccs. The moi then can't get any more. The moment of inertia can't get anymore. The length of a driver can't get anymore,
the speed of a golf ball can't get any more. So, for the first time ever in the history of golf, the parameters for distance have been set. They're set in stone and they're not going to change. So, for the first time ever, any improvements in driving distance or accuracy, or greens and regulation or score can be rightly attributed to the athlete. You know, for the last twenty thirty years, every single time someone hit it further or there was
a better scoring and it was always the equipment. Blame the ball, blame the clubs. And now you can actually look at the athlete and go wow. You know, I think since nineteen eighty to now, tour pros are thirty six yards longer thirty six yards, and there's a lot that makes up that thirty six yards. It's not just the ball. It's the rebound effect in the driver. It's the length of the driver, it's the forgiveness in the head which encourage you to just swing harder. It's the agronomy.
And then finally it's the athlete. You know, you look at them, I mean they look like you know, Olympic athletes. They used to look like plumbers, and you know, they hit the ball further because of it. A lot of those factors. So now going forward, we're going to see cool stuff. They're going to have to figure out how to stabilize the face. Taylor mate's got a new driver, Calloway's got a new driver. You look at them and there's arts for both of them. They're really cool, but
they're not about speed. They're about strength or about accuracy. More.
Do you say the PGA tour folded tomorrow and you are the commissioner of a brand new tour, what would equipment look like?
Oh, I wouldn't. I wouldn't change equipment. I wouldn't at all. I wouldn't roll back the equipment. I wouldn't roll back the ball. I'm you know. The the thing that was missed in equipment was originally there was supposed to be no rebound in the face, but drivers were made in the early nineties with rebound and the USGA didn't call kings X on the deal, and so the horse literally was out of the barn. And because they got a nice run, they felt like, for whatever reason, they weren't
gonna retroactively disallow them. So I'm quite happy. But if I were the one thing I would do, if I were the commissioner of the PGA tours, I would implore the u s GA or rewrite the anchoring rule. You know, it's very vague, it is poorly applied, and it's caused a lot of acrimony, and you know, it's it's it's it's not fun to watch. So I would definitely have that I would either allow it or disallow it properly, with proper language.
Yeah, like the I use the arm locked for a while, and I know Bryson uses it, Kutre uses it. How is that different than using like a belly putter.
Well, yeah, I mean I hear that, you know. You know, my my response to that would be, is that the butt end of the club when you when you use a belly putter, you've you've created a folk rum when you when you lock your putter against your arm. Yeah, there is benefits to that, no question about it, but you you haven't created a full crumble. What I would argue is that and you know, look, I don't know. Maybe the answer is is that is that you have to have both hands on the club. You know, you
have to have both hands on the putter. But then again, I've seen people put one handed, you know. Have you seen all these schnyder Dans do that? Have you seen him, I mean takes it back with two hands, hits it with one hand. You know, Mike Hulbert putted one handed for a while on the PGA tour. So you know, I would definitely address and talk to all the governing bodies about the clearing up the ambiguity and big Euwey ambiguous nature. Excuse me of the ruling on the anchored putter.
So there's no question in your mind right now that there are people that are anchoring.
Well, there's no question in my mind that they look like they're answered. You know, what they're doing is legal because you know they've looked quite closely at it, and those that are doing it explain it to those that are looking closely at it, and those that are in charge of making the rules say there is you know, there's nothing wrong here. It just looks like there is. I would argue, and I do argue, that if it touches your shirt, that that provides a soft anchor, it's
well within the rules. So what they're doing is legal. I'm not saying it's not. But in my mind, if you touch your shirt, then I have some spatial awareness of where the fulcrum is, and I think personally that's an advantage. Billy Casper did the same thing. You know, he touched his left leg when he putt it. You know, it wasn't illegal then nobody even talked about it. It was just a stroke that was peculiar to him, and he was one of the great putters of all time.
I'm writing a book right now on short game and putting, and Billy Casper will certainly be in it, no question about it, you know, because I love the way his putter had worked. But you know, at various times he touched his left leg with his putter, and to you know that that gives you spatial awareness where the full crum is. And it's difficult to write a rule that disallows somebody touching their clothes because at some point when you swing, say, if you've got a jacket on, it's
going to touch your clothes, right if it's windy. I get the difficulty in the language and the ambiguity with the language. I get that, but I would make it a priority and then try to figure out how to because you know, in my mind it does provide a soft anchor, and that's what I call it. Again, they're well within their rules to do it. I tell the players that are doing it, it's clearly it's legal. Keep on at it. But if I were the commission of the tour, I would change that.
I've definitely seen more close up of Longer's chest that I need to see for a whole.
Right. It's like, you know, we've got this bizarre right, and that's because of the rule. We shouldn't be focusing on that. But the whole world of golf is because anytime you see you know, there's several players out there, it's not just Langer that are doing that. Your attention goes right to that spot and it takes away from what they're doing otherwise.
So if you could take any of today's great players and pit them against a player of another generation, for like in their prime, for a live TV match, who what would the match be?
Well, that's pretty easy.
You know.
Tiger two thousand against Jack sixty.
Five today, player today, Oh.
Player today right now against somebody? Oh well, Jordan Speaeth twenty fifteen against Tiger two thousand.
You know, do you think that's comparable.
No, there'll never be another Tiger ever. Tiger was shakes beer. You know, five hundred years from now, for the species survives, they'll be talking about Tiger Woods. You know, as the by far the greatest golfer of all time. You know, there's no bigger Jack Nicholas fan in the world than me, not only as a father and a the way he handled himself in the game and the way he played it.
I never thought i'd see anything like him. But from just a purely golf standpoint, when I'm around people that say Jack was the better player, I'm like, well, you really haven't looked at it. Then Tiger's win percentage was double, his average margin of victory was double. You know, his wins five shots or more was a double. You know, you start running up against this at double twice as good.
That's twice as good as Jack. A lot. When you start looking at Tiger and Jack twice as good, twice as good, twice as good, it pops up over and over and over.
It And what we mentioned the athletes have you know, evolved for time to be better?
Yes, I mean Jack was one hell of an athlete, no question about it. And Jack is and that look it's you say you can't compare errors. I hear it all the time. It's like, no, everybody does. You can. It's inconvenient because somebody's general gets demoted to corporal, you know, but you know you can. And I think it's important to study the best because it's like whatever worked is what does work? You know, what did Tiger did? What
made him so good. I'd love to see that, you know, Rory McRoy at his best against Tiger or Jack or Hogan, you know, if you know, I'd love to see Tiger at his best, you know, Tiger two thousand against Hogan fifty three. You know, I'd give anything to see that, you know, you know, or the best would be you know, Bobby Jones in thirty, Jack sixty five or seventy two. Take your pick, Hogan fifty three, Tiger two thousand. You get those four, and that's that's the greatest golf that's
ever been played. You know, there are a lot of good players in the game right now, but we were blessed to have been able to watch Tiger Woods. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaking of some of the you know, great classic swings, who's on your mount rushmore of golf swings.
Well, Sam Snead, you know, there's you know, there are a lot of different ways to do that. I'm writing a book right now in the short game, but I'm halfway through a book that'll come out right after that. The third book, all right, is just the one hundred greatest swings of all time? Who had it, what they did? And so when you discuss that. Is it from an aesthetic standpoint? Is it from a success standpoint? You know what makes a great golf swing. But Calvin Pete will
certainly be in there. You know, Calvin Pete is the straightest hitters ever played the game. And you know, I hear it over and over again when I say Calvin Pete's the straightest hitters ever play the game, and people are like, yeah because of his broken left arm, Like no, no, it is so quick. It doesn't matter. You choose a player, and it doesn't matter who it is, John Day, Bubba Watson. The way the world dismisses what they do is by calling them a freak or attributing their success to some
idio secrecy, because I don't know why. People are just uncomfortable dealing with the move. The move they made is what made him a straight hitter. And Calvin Pete's move was very similar to Ben Hogan's. Now if we if they had statistics back then, I have no doubt that Ben Hogan would have hit it. You know, he'd have been in Calvin Pete's neighborhood, very very similar body motions. Hogan would have been longer because Hogan was a phenomenal athlete,
so Ben Hogan, Sam's need Tiger Woods two thousand. You know, those those are the Mount Rushmore of golf swings.
We have a golf gambling at game at all. You know, the guy in the middle plays the guy on the left and the guy on the right, and we call it the Calvin Peak game.
Seriously, no kidding, Yeah, well, I mean, I'm just I'm amazed at how little people talk about his golf swing. You think about it. I'm around people all the time talking about golf swings, and they'll never ever bring up Calvin Pete's golf swing. Here's a guy that led driving accuracy ten years in a row. Whoever led driving accuracy last year, I'm trying to remember who it was. Anyway, whoever it was, I wrote it down, I forgot it.
But they won't lead it this year, you know. And whoever let it five years ago didn't lead it the next year. You know. You know, Fred Funk had a nice run in there, Jerry Kelly, Joe Durant, Mike Read. You know, they very straight hitters, no question about it. But only one person to ten years in a row, ten in a row, and also led greens and regulation.
That's crazy.
And you know, you look at his golf swing. If I put it face to face right and I put Ben Hogan right beside him and they start to make their move into the backswing, you will see that they both they both move right. They both very early straighten the right leg and it's not rigid. It's not locked,
I'm not saying that, but it straightens. It's straight in to where when you're looking at it face on, it looks like a ruler straight and then they turn their hips against that and then they use that pressure to push into their left side and they move latterly and then they extend and they rotate, and that move is not resisting with the lower body. It's not keeping flexing the right leg. But you go out on a range right now and there'll be somebody out there teaching keep
the flexing the right leg and resist lower body. Meanwhile, the person who had it straighter and anybody ever has ever didn't do that, and nor did Ben Hogan.
So with today's game, in the last two years, we've seen and the a correlation between driving distance and the top fifteen twenty players in the world, and players like Zach Johnson Jim Furrea, Kluke Donald tumble down in the world rankings. Are we in an era where distance is becoming almost a prerequisite for greatness?
No, I don't think so. You know, it's always been that way. If you go back and you look at the players that have won the Varden Trophy more times than not, they were, you know, costly long off the tee. Having said that, now, cal Pete did win the Varden Trophy, but Byron Nelson. You know, Jack would have won it almost every year he played. He just didn't play enough events. So I count Jack lowest scoring average, Ben Hogan. You know Tiger Woods, you know, you go back, and distance
had something to do with it. There was an era, you know that where we had dominant with short hitters. You know, Nick Faldo wasn't a long hitter. He had some dominant Certainly, Lee Trevino had some success. He wasn't a long hitter. But Tom Watson was long, very very long. Jack was long, Miller was long, Wisecoff was long, Palmer was long. You know, Gary player was certainly not short,
you know, and he's still long. He's still long, right, guy hits it further than I do, you know, he's uh, you know, I watch him and I think, God, you know that is you know a lot of people have probably rolled their eyes at Gary over the years. You know, his his incessant chirping about fitness. But wouldn't you all, I mean, we would all love to be him when we're eighty some odd years old. The guy just lit
up like a Roman candle. And when he comes on TV. Yeah, I mean, every eighty year old man is entitled to just drone on about something ridiculous that is is is of interest to them. But but my god, and shouldn't we all have that kind of passion at eighty plus years of age? And he and his wife they just celebrated their sixty first wedding anniversary. They met when they were both teenagers. And I mean, the story's amazing. And he's a I mean, look, he's eighty seven years old.
He's a good looking man. I mean, he looks like he could be in he could be He's like George Clooney of eighty year old men. He's just you know, he looks like he could be a movie star. So I have my marvel at Gary. Uh, you know, and in this era we've had let's see. You know, Matt Coocher tremendous success, not a long hitter, Jordan Speed, you know, Jeorge Speth is he's.
Above average though he's in the top half of the PGA Tour. What I'm saying is like, yeah, is are we going to see a world number one that's not in the top half of the PGA Tour and driving?
It's you know, we're in a I mean, it's gonna be tough because there are so many good athletes. Now it's it's it's you know, Luke Donald did it. You know, he got to be number one, and Luke didn't hit it long, and he didn't hit it particularly streight. But Luke, Luke, you know, he had a phenomenal year that with a year of desirons, No question, his irons were great. But Luke is you know, we marveled at Ben Hogan his ability to hit a golf ball, But Luke Donald is
Ben Hogan of the short game. You know, I mean, in the same way we marveled Ben, we should be marveling at Luke Donald and Steve Stricker. You know, the way they chipped the ball, pitch the ball, hit bunker shots and putt. You know, Luke Donald was able to overcome disadvantages of not being long or straight. For crying out loud that I mean, then you can't eve get on tour one long or straight and he became a number one player. Well, I love watching Luke Donald play the game.
And we so we've talked about Faldo before and I'm curious. You know, he's won six majors, six six would he be able to win a major in today's Oh?
Yeah, absolutely. You know the things that made Nick great, you know. I mean, look, Nick was playing against longer hitters, Greg Norman. You know he schooled Norman. Norman was much much longer than him. You know, he played against Nick Price. Nick Price was only Ian Woosno, Ian Woos was really long.
So a question is what about the technology has completely changed? The ball doesn't spend as much. Could that have a factor?
Well, you know, you say it doesn't spend. I mean, you know, the average driving distance is two hundred and ninety plus yards. You know, guys are not hitting long clubs into greens anymore. Doesn't spin as much, but it lands at a much steeper angle. You know, distance is always going to be a huge advantage. It always has been it always. You start to look at the players that have dominated, you know, top ten of all time. There's not a short hitter in there, you know, I
mean there's not. I mean Bobby Jones long, Tiger Woods long, crazy long, Nicholas crazy long, Byron Nelson, you know, he wasn't he wasn't Sam Sneed long, but he was long. Walter Hagen. You know, you go down the list and you'd get to Gene Saracen. But if you ever watched Geene saras and hit a golf well, no, he wasn't the longest, but he wasn't short. You know, Palmer long. You know, distance has always dominated, and the hardest thing to do in golf is hit it long and straight.
So that's the thing that interests me the most. So I'm always on the lookout for any any player, any method, any idea that demonstrates an ability to hit the ball long and straight. That's what keeps me up at night, you know, is who hits it the furthest and who hits it the straightest.
So who's your favorite player or like, who are you most bullish on of a player that's outside the top fifty in the world rankings right now, if you had to pick one, Oh, I don't know.
Dylan, for Telly is amazing. You know, what he's been able to do in the game so quickly certainly gets my attention. There's no question about that. You know. He pops up and you're like, oh geez, this kid is you know, consistently winning. This The kid that's number one in the world right now in the amateur rankings, Neeman Newman.
I think he just ran He's hat sixty three in the LA the Latin America right right.
I mean, you know, he's from Chile. You know, I'm amazed. I think one of the most amazing you know, we're talking about men's golf, but one of the most amazing things in the last fifteen years of golf is the number of good players to come from South Korea and good good golf swings. I was talking to a coach from Korea yesterday and I, you know, I asked him that question because I spent a lot of time thinking about that question, and there are no teaching academies in Korea.
There's really no there's no teaching so it's like a hold on a second what's going on here. And you know, golf is a pastime over there. Kids have clubs in their hands by the time they're four, and they're out swinging, you know, on the playgrounds, and you know they're they're coming to these the game early when your ability to imitate is you know, at its peak, and they you know, they bring a work ethic to the game. But there's
not a lot of instruction in South Korea. And yet we see great swing after great swing because they're going on YouTube, they're watching and they're imitating.
That's amazing. That speaks to your homegrown you know.
You know who's the best swing of golf right now? Adam Scott. Yeah, okay, you know Adam Scott's teacher is Adam Scott. Who's the greatest swing of all time? Sam Sneat. You know who Sam Sneed's teacher was, Sam Snead. Ben Hogan. You know who Ben Hogan's teacher was, Ben Hogan. So you know, now, Tiger and Jack were taught by teachers. I'm not saying that teachers don't have their place. They do.
I I'm not I'm not at all insinuation, and I'm just saying that you are quite capable on your own of creating a great move, you know, and if you're lucky enough to find a good instructor, then well fortunate. You're fortunate because there are far more tragedies and instruction at the professional rank than there is successes.
So Tiger recently announced he's, you know, he's splitting with Como and he's kind of going with just himself. Where's Tiger going to end the year ranked in the world rankings.
That's a great question. Probably close to the top fifty, you know, which is you know, I didn't think that Tiger would come back with a golf swing like that. I didn't think he'd come back with speed like that. So, you know, he and I I, you know, I was asked about it obviously a lot, and I said, you know, I hope I'm wrong, and I'm happy to be wrong. You know, he'll still have to get over and find a way around his short game woes, because those are
not gone by any stretch of the imagination. But golf swing wise, I think, you know, he's got a good enough, good enough golf swing and enough speed to go out there and contend.
Something we were talking about last night with short game is how long rough around the greens we were saying, compared to short grass around the greens actually is.
Good for Oh yeah, absolutely. If you've got some wiggle room underneath the ball, then you don't have to be so precise and it you know, you can move it up, you can move it back. You've got wiggle room under the ball. But when you've got a tight lie and it's sort of a straightforward pitch shot, you know, the need to be precise is there. And when you've hit as many bad chips as we've seen Tiger Woods hit over the last four or five years, you think about it.
Their foremost in our mind. I promise you, they're foremost in his right and he has to chisel through a wall of doubt before every single chip shot he hits. Everyone and his competitors are walking up to a chip shot with you know, blood in their eyes. You know they're they're they're trying to hold it and and that's
that's the difference. And people, you know, every time Tiger hits a good chip, I'll get a tweet from somebody saying, see he doesn't have the yips, or actually I'll get a hundred, you know, or a thousand and uh, you know, you idiot, and and and then and then and then two three holes later when he chunks one, my Twitter feed will go silent. You know, It's like I'm like, yeah, you know, where are you chirpers now? Uh? And I you know, look, I hope he figures it out, but
I've never seen anybody figure the chippy yips out. There was a player from Australia by the name of Brett Ogle who was a hell of a player, won very quickly on the PGA Tour Pebble Beach in the early nineties and long and straight and just you know at everything. You know, he was abrasive in the right ways. You know how he got the chippy nips and he was off the tour and gone and in a year. I've
never seen anybody recover from them. So you know, Tiger took two chips to get on the green seven times at the Hero seven times, it took him two chips to green it. If there had been shot link that week, he would have been dead last. In the statistic that I look at is it's arg it's how close you chip. You know, when you hit a chip shot on average, how close does it finish next to the hole. That
is the truest measure of who's the best chipper. And every year, you know, I mean very rarely where you see somebody get below six feet, that person will lead all around. That's that's Steve Stricker, That's that's who does that. But the bottom will be around eight feet on average. They're going to chip at a feet. A huge percentage difference between how many six footers you make and how many eight footers you make. And you know, the last the last top ten the Tiger had on the tour
was Wyndham. Was that twenty fifteen and he finished tenth. He averaged thirteen feet seven inches on his chip shots that week to the whole thirteen feet last on the tour is eight feet, so best is six feet, so twice as bad as the best, considerably worse than the worst. You know that a big difference between putting an a footer and a thirteen footer percentage wise.
So the Aaron Hills last year got maligned by yeah because of scoring, but one of the things I loved about it was all the short grass around the greens, and like I think the round that really showcased that was Patrick Reid's third round where he hit I think eleven greens and shot sixty five right, and he continually fired at flags and he short sighted himself, but he relied on what he's best at. Yeah, do you think more tour setups should have more short grass around?
I don't. I don't. You know, Look, we already have that major is called Augusta National, and we kind of have it at the Open Championship. What I love about the Open or the US Open, what I used to love about it was the draconian setups, penal, you know, intimidating. And I mean this, I don't mean any disrespect. I was a player once. I was the person bitching about course setups. But it always occurred to me that they shouldn't listen to me, that I'm just blowing steam off
the last people used to be listening to. Of course set up the tour players, you know, they're always going to argue for graduated, rough, wider fair ways, however they want to do it. Someone's going to do to the player. They will be arguing about their strength, what they like, what they want to see, what they think will bring out the best in them. None of them are going to argue from an equitable standpoint. They're going to be arguing from whatever it is that they think brings out
the best in them. Now, I've listened to arguments about mowing the grass around the green. It gives them more shots, it's more interesting. It's not just the flop shot. And that's true, but the name of the game, at least as I see it. Look, we already have Augusta National, and Augusta is meant to bring out the artist in a golfer, make them create shots, bring out the ingenuity around the greens. It's bold. You're meant to slay the dragon there, right, But at the US Open, the dragon
is supposed to slay you. You know, you're supposed to be intimidated by the setup. If you miss the fairway, I don't care. If you miss it by a foot, you pay a penalty for it. If you miss the green, I don't care. You know about fairness. I'm talking about if if you miss the green, your target is hitting the green. If you miss the green, I'm all for nasty rough around the green, all for it. I want to see a guy to chip. I want to see
it because that's what I want to see. At that major championship, flare at augusta intimidation at the US Open, mother nature at the Open, and then the elements. Unfortunately, with the PGA Championship being played in the heat of the summer, they're a slave to whatever mother nature will allow them to do with a golf course.
This year is gonna be tough.
Uh yeah, I mean that's gonna be one hundred and one hundred percent humidity. It's just gonna be nasty, and so there. You know, I don't necessarily think you should be punishing people to the extent that you do at the US Open, because you know, the physical nature of it is punishing enough. Uh So they have to keep the golf course softer and understandably so. But I you know who won wing Foot nineteen seventy four, Heller when he shot seven over par. Heller, when proved to be
an extraordinary player. He won the three more you know, he won two more Opens, he won three US Open. You know, I love to see. You know, we're all about strokes gained, right, Strokes gain is a measure of how you do against everybody else. Sure, okay, I get that metric, I use it, but I always go back to did you hit the fairway or did you not? Did you hit the green or did you not? Because nobody stands on the tee with very few exceptions and goes, eh,
I'm better off I missed this fairway. Yeah, I mean, I'm okay if I missed this fairway. You're aiming for the fairway. Did you hit it or did you not? Nobody stands in the fairway and goes, I'm okay if I missed this green or you're not. You're trying to hit the green? Did you hit it or did you not? That that you know? People? Will you know this? Whole strokes gain obsessive. I'm a big fan of Mark Brody and I use it and I look at it and it's interesting, but I still look at can you hit
the fairway? Can you hit the green? And the US Open was that? And if it went back to it, I would be standing on top of my car applauding them because I want to see a tour player agitated, angry, pissed off about setup, and then I want to see who it is that hits the shots. Did you hit them or did you not? Could you hit them? That's cool to me, you know, that is the game really should be about control. It should be, and if it were about control, tour players that week would be forced
to use a ball that spins more. They'd consider going to a driver with less MOI. They would think about all these things they'd be forced to because they're like, well, wait a minute, I don't want to hit a ball that's flying straight up in the air with no spin on it. You don't have as much control over it. If I miss this fairly, I'm screwed, even if I miss it by a foot. So heit I want to spin this ball more. I want to cut it more,
I want to draw it more. So it would make them reconsider their bad configuration and their shot selection.
I would love to see that. I really I want to see carnage at the US Open.
Yes, I do.
I think it's something you speak of. I'm a big proponent of WITH. Yeah, I'm an architecture guy. Oh yeah, I'm a nut, But I'm a big proponent of WITH. But also like one of the things I love about golf courses inside the golf courses, variety. But speaking what you talked about was variety among setups. So I had Bill Kooran a couple of months ago and he we started talking about Trenny Forrest and he said that he
wanted it. The way he wants to test tour players, and he thinks you should test tour players is by making courses shorter and wider and forcing them to pick a line and hit it at a certain distance. What do you think about shorter and wider?
I love it, you know, I you know this is I do love variety, and I love Bill Korkrinshaw golf courses, and when I play them, that thought is you can feel it. You know, when you play the golf course, you know you'll drive it down, be right next to a green. But if you don't have the right angle, you've got some awkward, inconvenient ridge to get over, and you know you could spit on the green and you can't chip it on the green because you're in a
bad spot. So golf is meant to be fun. With the exception of the US Open one week of year, it's not meant to be fun. Augusta's fun. The Open is fun. Okay, the PGA, because you're battling the elements may not be so fun. But but golf is meant to be fun and Krins, Shaw and Corp get that. You know that the the the penal setups. Uh that I love at the US Open. I hate everywhere else.
You know, I don't want to play golf courses that are that are you know, you either hit it here or you don't, you know, I mean, I like the recovery shot, you know. I like the ability to recover, and I like the ability to bombs away and get down there and realize, well, I did hit the fairway, but I'd be way better off I hit it over there. That's strategic, it's interesting, it's you know, my favorite course in the world is a course in San Antonio by
the name of Oak Hills Country Club. It was designed by Tilling Hast. Its integrity has never really been touched. It's been spruced up time or two by Weisskoff and J. Morrish and whatnot, but it's the same way. It's only seven thousand yards long. But every day I finished it, I think, you know, it was such an interesting round. You know, I had a bad lie here because I
drove in the wrong side of the fairway. I had a three iron from a hanging lie there and nine iron from an uphill side hill, lie little bitty greens and it peaks your curiosity. Crenshaw Corps do that. The Trinity Fours golf Course in Dallas, by all accounts, is amazing. I think the field will be much much better there. I think players will be intrigued by that. That course.
I spent like three days just walking around studying the course. There's a couple of spots where I mean there. It's going to be very interesting to see the comments that come from it. Yeah, it's going to rub some people the wrong way.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know Gil hans redid draw and the first hole he made it. You know, it's a par five, but if you if you're second shot drifts right of center, it'll catch the slope and it'll go in the water. And I think JB. Holmes was leading there after two rounds and he drove it and he had a six iron to the green if memory serves me correctly, and his six iron landed from the left side of the fairway I believe, hit the sort of the right side of the green and it went the water.
And he was angry and he thinking, I think he had some critical things to say. I think it was JB. Holmes and Gil Hans was up on the set that night, and you know I could tell that it. I could tell it bothered him a little bit. You know, he's getting and I and I was thinking, well, I mean I've been there. I've been the tour player and you think, no matter what, when you hit the shot and it doesn't turn out the way you want, you were like,
what idiot designed this golf course? And if you philosophically look at it, though it's a it's a par five, there has to be some risk reward. You know, if you get it going right at thirteen at augusta a little bit with your second shot, it goes in the water, It come up shore, roll in the water. You know, if you don't quite catch it perfect at fifteen, it'll hit in the front third and come back in the water. Those are all design elements that are intended to intimidate.
They're intended to make you create and reward great creativity and boldness. And you shouldn't get a pass with a shot that's just not quite right. With a six iron to a par five, you should pay dearly for it. Mentally, you know, there should be some stress. I love that kind of architecture. And that's one of the things I love about Crenshaw Core is that they design with that in mind. Fun but also they want you to have fun, but they also want you to pay a small price for a strategic mistake.
Yeah. I love death biangle.
Ah that's great, Great, I'm stealing that death bi angle. I'll give you full credit at some point trade market death by angle. Yeah yeah.
And you think you're okay, and then you get up there and you say, ah sh.
Yeah right, death biangle, And then and then and then holy grail, you know, is the opposite of that, you know, reward by angle, you know, And and that's we spend more time talking about angles at Augusta National than any other golf course. You know, angles are important. You know, you know, you drive it down the left side, and you know, you you know, if you find the fairway balls above your feet, but you know you you want
to hit towards the right center of that green. You know, you drive it down the left side at thirteen, you know, take that risk and then you've got a flatter lie. But you want now you want to hit a cut into that green. And we talk so much about shot shape and angles and where you want to drive it and you know, and we don't do that very often. That's because the architect those things were important to him. Yeah, what's your favorite course?
Uh, sand Hills, Nebraska.
Yeah, everybody, I hear that a lot. I've never played it, but I hear that a lot. To get out yeah I did.
That's if you leave Sandhills without a grasp at least a grasp of strategic what strategic golf? No kidding you are, you're pretty a napped if you all right without it?
All right, but.
It's I mean, everything's about angles and and you get the elements out there in the sand in Nebraska. I mean, it'll be blown thirty miles an hour from one direction for your front nine, and it'll switch on the back nine. These holes play remarkably different day in day out. I mean, I mean it is a special place.
I got to get out there. You know, my wife is a heck of a golfer. She loves to play and and she's always after me to take a golf trip here or there. And I haven't thought about sand Hills, but it's got to get out there.
It's a cool place. It's in the middle of nowhere.
Though, right, Yeah, well, I think we found out that you know that that adage about you know, if you build it, they'll come bandon? Do is prove that correct pretty much? Area Cabot Links prove that to be correct. I mean we went to Cabot Links, my wife and I last summer on a break, and you know, it was it's like reading a great book. You know, you want to read it, but you really want to take your time, you know, because you're enjoying it so much. So I didn't want to finish. I didn't want to
stop every day, you know, every hole. I was like, I just want to walk slow, you know, I don't want to hurry and finish this round. It's too perfect.
Yeah, I mean in Abandon Dune's Cabot those things wouldn't have happened without sand Hills because that was that first, right, the first real minimalist core crunchhaw where it was all about the golf. So sand Hills was ninety five. It was a little bit after Kapalua and sand Hills. I mean, Mike Kaiser's remember it at sand Hills, Like, yeah, I'm certain that if sand Hills hadn't have worked, you wouldn't have bandon dunes, you wouldn't have how about that cabot clips and links?
So I haven't heard anybody connect the dots like that.
I like that you to golf swings as meat up.
Well, now I have a nice source for architecture. I appreciate that, Andy.
So Overrated Underrated is our regular segment of the podcast. So we're going to just throw some stuff at you and say are these things overrated? Underrated?
Okay, We're going.
To start with the city of Orlando.
Overrated or underrated? Underrated if you're under eighteen overrated. Otherwise, the traffic here has leaves a little to be desired. The Interstate four will give the four h five in LA to a side for chaotic conditions at all hours of the day. Yesterday was today today's Tuesday, Sunday. My wife and I wanted to go play golf. It's twenty minutes to my club, and we hit rush hour traffic at eleven o'clock on Sunday and it took me an hour to get over there for no reason, no discernible reason.
So yes, that question was spawned from an explet of laden conversation we had actually driving over here today.
You feel my pain. So don't just think that you're here and it's gone. And every day I'm here, those expletives are in my head as I drive around this town. It's like, where are the city planners? You know? I want to you know, yes, I want to have a talk with them.
If your if your job and you know, regular work wasn't here, what city would you live in?
New York City? Probably? You know it's the energy of that place. Uh, you know, the talent that people have everywhere there. You know, you go to a show, you go to a restaurant, you know, you go to a museum. You see, my goodness, you know, the the confluence of energy of that city is magnetic.
How about overrated underrated stacking tilt.
You guys? You guys, I uh over it underrated stack.
Until because stack until tendencies in this way? Yeah?
Where these brought about? Because you do you decided that, you know, to go down that way purposely or it just happened. It just happened.
And it's funny because like five or six years ago, when stack untilt was in right, people were like, oh man, love your golf swing. You naturally stack in tilt that's awesome. And now it's like, oh god, dude, you're stacking in tilting right, fix that.
Right, you're stacking in tilting. Well, look, I I don't believe they had any mal intent these guys at all. You know, they they they they had good intentions. I don't think they purposely wanted to harm anybody. But I don't find any value in it, you know, I I see validity for it when somebody can't move, you know, if if somebody doesn't have the ability to transfer their weight, you know, to the right or to the left, staying
in the same place gives you some consistency. So as a philosophy to help poor players with very limited mobility, I see utility in the idea. But for better players, you know, it'd be like giving training wheels to Lance Armstrong. You know, you're you know, these guys can move. And every great player moved off of the ball, every single one of them, every single one of them male or female. They did not have a stationary head. They moved to the right, they moved up, and they transfer their way
to the right. Every athletic endeavor involves a weight transfer, loading and unloading. So you know, those guys. You know, I've Plumber and Bennett. I think they're smart guys, you know I do. I think they're well intentioned, and clearly a lot of people thought there was validity to their ideas. I just didn't have an agree with them. I'll just say this though again, if they were sitting right here,
I'm sure we'd have a pleasant conversation. I don't agree with the teaching philosophies all the way through of Hank Haney. I'm going to play in the member guest with Hank Haney at his club. I don't agree with the teaching philosophies of Butch Harmon. You know, I don't think you should squat into your right leg or restrict or short in your back swing. I'd like to think Butch and our friends and we talk about golf swing a lot,
you know, wherever you're at. If I'm doing a panel open form tonight with a bunch of teachers, every one of those teachers, to the person to the right of them and the person who the left with them, they do not agree with what they teach, but they're all trying to do the right thing. So I'll say this about Plumber and Bennett I'm well intentioned. They're smart guys. I just don't happen to agree with their philosophies.
So I really appreciate the time. No, you got to get out of here. You gotta get to that panel.
Thank you. I'm actually going to meet I had arranged the lunch meeting with when I was very early in golf, professional golf. Uh, you know, trying to qualify for the tour. You know, you got all this quallity, a little section only reading or whatever. You know, that's life or death every shot. And I used to travel with a fellow one of the guys that he's traveled with, a fellow, n Evan Schiller. Evan now has become a foremost photographer. And Evan is in town this week, and he'd asked
me to lunch. Uh, and we're you know, we're just going right across the street here. I haven't seen Evan the last time I saw him. You know, we were living and dying with every golf shot. And so one of the things about social media is you just keep track of people's lives. And I see his photography, I'm like, good gosh, you've turned into this phenomenal photographer. So I'm going to meet Evan for lunch and catch up before I dive into the panel tonight. You guys are gonna be there.
We are not We're gonna We're gonna go see it up for nine week winter Park. I'm a Chicago Well there you go, right.
Winter Park is my producer at our golf Channel's name is Matt Haggerty. Yeah, I know Matt. You know Matt. Matt lives in winter Park and he had a lot to do with getting the architects. He picked them, found them, coerced them into doing that project on a shoe string budget. And my wife and I for you know, giggles. You know, it cost twelve dollars to go over there and play golf. And it's a fabulous golf course and it's right in the middle of the city. It's like Scotland. You go
over there, play play nine holes, go have a drink. Yeah.
Andy told me to play there like a month or a couple of months ago, and I got there and I was like, what the hell is this place? And then I got done playing, I'm like, God, I gotta go play again.
Oh no, It's terrific. You guys have fun. You guys. I'm jealous. I wish I was over there with you guys. We'll have to get together and play sometime. Really nice to meet you guys. You know put it. You know. Look, you get on Twitter and there's a whole lot of snark on Twitter, and you guys, you guys don't do that. You know, you're all about the betterment of this game, and you put out great content. So it's really nice to put faces with Twitter handles. So for sure, Well,
thank you so much again. Yeah, I look forward to it anytime. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. Yeah, cheers. Yep, you've been listening to the fried Egg podcast. We do the digging for you.