Billy Horschel on Course Setups, Modern Equipment, and Global Golf

in pro golf. So before we get to that, we're going to do our in and out segment. Joseph, what are you in on?

practice round schedule. But if you if you played a bunch of teas, if you said, all right, let's we'll set this up and you know, you got to be ready to play every tea box, I think people would practice more. And I think that's the the neat thing that you can do with set up. Obviously it's tricky with rope lines. I think that's the trickiest thing is like grandstands and rope lines where you have like infrastructure set up and it's hard to move that and it

might not be feasible to really change every hole. But I love the idea of of, hey, this is the golf course. You don't know what it's gonna be set up as you're gonna have to you're gonna have to adapt, you're gonna have to do this. Famously, you're you might be too young for this. But famously this happened when the uh the US Open was at Olympic Club. They moved the tea box way up on the sixteenth hole

of the par five. Jim Furick was a leader. He didn't know what to do and he ended up hitting this like terrible smother hook if I remember correctly, and it really it cost him the championship. So this is this is something that can kind of befuddle, it can change the way it. I love surprising people. The professional golfers are just in general creatures of habit. Anything that throws them off of their regular routine is a nice uh. I think, little challenge, like you know, it's like a

pop quiz. You know, you don't know when when something's gonna change. So I with that, go ahead. What are you in on, Andy Joseph? I am really in on, in particular the twenty thirties of the US Women's Open.

of it. I just don't think it should in order to get a lot, we shouldn't have to jump around to like ten different platforms. So the Peacock to USA to NBC not really anything on Golf channel. It just and then you got feature groups on NBC. Sports jumping arounds hard. It's really hard to do. I'm I'm someone that understands how to use apps, and it's a struggle for me. So I can't imagine what it's like for someone like my parents, like my mom or my dad,

who are avid golf watchers. Like I can't foresee a world where they're able to navigate from Peacock to USA to NBC. I just I don't think that's feasible. So can we just get it? Like why can't it just stream on Peacock the whole time? And it's like, okay, I can watch this. I'll just watch this straight through on Peacock. It's all owned, Like why can't that be

an option? It just seems to me crazy that we're changing the channel so much so much here in order to watch this golf and not only just changing it's not just changing the channel. It's having to switch from apps, which that's just like a whole nother barrier. We can't make this stuff hard to watch. And I you know, I hope it gets better by the twenty thirties because the venues, I mean, the US Women's Open has the best venues. It's way better than the men's because there's

more variety. There's less reliance on Pinehurst and Pebble and Oakmont, so it creates way more variety and there are way more places that the women's game can go to. And Lancaster I thought was a great example of the type of golf course and the type of clubs that women's golf the LPGA Tour should be targeting, because this was an elevator, like it elevated the event. How good the

golf course was playing. I have some qualms about, you know, the renovation that they did and the direction just generally of spending a bunch of money and not really improving the golf course. But the golf course is a great golf course. It's a great championship golf course. It has like so many awesome characteristics between the topography and and just the the greens and just the tilt of them, the severe greens with topography is just such a good

recipe for championship golf. And then they had firm conditions. They you know, the weather was really good to them, so it was really great. But like, there's no reason why you can't go to some Lancaster type golf courses with your regular LPGA schedule. So anyways, in the twenty thirties, you women's game, it doesn't overpower these courses. If you put the men out at Lancaster, it'd be just a

driver wedge fest. And that was like the that's the recipe is that this is golf courses can provide awesome, awesome defenses and really interesting product when they aren't when the golf ball doesn't go two miles. And when you look at this venueless for the US Women's Open in twenty thirty, it is unbelievable. Interlock in twenty thirty. Uh, they just reopened their golf course or they're about to reopen their golf course from me Andrew Green Renovation, I'm

going to see it in August. I'm really excited about that. It's a Donald Ross arguably one of his you know, ten bet he's got so many I would just say ten best golf courses. Another Donald Ross Oakland Hills, the South course, that might be Donald Ross's best golf course. It is extraordinary, you know, top five set of greens probably in the country. Then they go to LACC that's going to be spectacular. After that, they go to Chicago Golf Club in twenty thirty three, then Marion in twenty

thirty four, pretty good. Chicago Golf Club obviously is a venue that's unavailable to the men because of how far the off ball goes. Isn't that a shame? Twenty thirty five is Pubble Beach, which hopefully there'll be some some updates to Pebble Beach by twenty thirty five, maybe hoping. Then Shinnacock Hills in twenty thirty six. I think Shinnakock that's going to be a great US women's open course.

One of the things that's been intertwined in Shinnacock's great history was women's golf was always a part of that, and championship women's golf was always a part of that. So twenty thirty six there, twenty thirty seven is open. It'll be curious to see what gets filled in there. Twenty thirty eight goes to Oakmont, and then twenty thirty nine is open. So a couple of courses that I would love to see considered. I think Cyprus Point would be the greatest US Women's Open host you could ask for.

I don't know if they would be willing to host. I know they're hosting this Walker Cup, but that would be extraordinary. I think there would be some logistical challenges, like I don't know where you would put grand stands on fifteen through eighteen, but it would be really, really great. That would be one that I'd like to slot in there if you could. But there are so many other ones that could be, you know, the great host for the women's game. If you want to go somewhere in Ohio,

you could do like Sciota. Obviously they have Inverness in the in the twenty twenties. But this Women's open venue list, I it's the best, is the best collection this is. It's a great sampling of American the great American golf across the almost the entire part of the you know, the US. Obviously the South is a little underrepresented, but you know, you go east, east to west, there I'm with you.

week out. It's extremely refreshing. So I'm with you Andy on the part that you're out on with how difficult it was to watch, Like I think it was the first hour on Sunday was Peacock and then I believe it went to USA for an hour before moving on to network television for the rest of the day, and like, I couldn't remember my Peacock login and just decided to miss the first hour. And I think that's ultimately a decision that a lot of people make when they can't

figure it out. So I agree, right, get great venues present it in a way that's easy enough for people to put on and doesn't require switching between a different inputs, and I think you have a pretty special product. What I'm out on is related to that, and it's something we've talked about in this section of the podcast before.

I'm out on the lack of coordination between major golf organizations with the schedule, and specifically this past weekend we had two national opens, the US Women's Open and the RBC Canadian Open on the PGA Tour. The final groups teed off within ten minutes of one another. The final group at the US Women's Open teed off at two fifteen Eastern time. The final group at the men's at the Canadian Open teed off at two twenty five Eastern time. The final groups were going down the eighteenth whole at

the same time. It's hard to watch both and with just a little bit of coordination, a little bit of staggering. I know that daylight is a concern and it's hard to coordinate all this stuff. Logistically, I think it would go a long way if you're not trying to watch two live trophy ceremonies and final groups going down the

closing stretch at the same time. And when you talk about something like the Caitlin Clark effect and how the WNBA is getting more popular and there's this surgeon fan interest, part of the reason is obviously they have this transcendent athlete Caitlin Clark coming into the league, but it's also the way that they've coordinated the calendar. Like the NBA, the Men's Professional Basketball League is winding down right now.

There's not games every night. The games are pretty spread out because we're at the finals and the WNBA season is just starting. So basketball fans can watch Caitlin Clark on primetime television. It's not competing directly against the NBA. Not saying that in professional golf, the men and the women need to play at completely different times of the calendar, but staggering within the day into different telecast windows would go a very long way instead of having the final

groups tee off within ten minutes of each other. So I think that was a little bit of a failure to You're not really putting either product in a position to succeed by doing that, and it'd be much better if there was at least an hour hour and a half between them.

It's got so much history. It's got quotes about Jack Nicholas, like talking about how important it would be to win a Canadian Open. At what point it was considered like a major and now it's like relegated to the event before a three week run of signature event at Memorial US Open and then signature event at the Travelers. Nothing screams big time event like Cromwell Connecticut. I know the fans show up, I know the sponsor is great, but the golf course isn't and it just that shouldn't be

a signature event instead of the Canadian Open. Who's playing Hamilton, one of the country's greatest golf courses. But anyways, it goes back to like there were diehard PGA Tour fans who were watching the Women's Open instead of the RBC Canadian Open, And there were also diehard golf fans that were watching the RBC Canadian Open instead of the Women's Open that would have been tuning into the Women's Open.

Coordination is so important because arising like, the more popular the women's game is the more chance that the men game has to grow because the women's game might attract different viewers in and then they might start watching the men's game and just like that, the men's game being more popular is good for the women's game. This is

all They're all interconnected. They have to have to coordinate, and like if the tour just had a more bangeable schedule, like if we get to a point where it's like the PGA Tour is a twenty event schedule or eighteen event schedule played globally, it would solve so many of these issues because the Women's Open this US Senior Open that's going to be played at Newport in a couple of weeks won't be opposite the PGA Tour. These big

time events should get their shine. All these tours should work together to create And I know this is an idealistic and it's not always going to be perfect, but in the sense of the Women's Open, the biggest women's professional event of the year, you cannot have the Canadian Open running counter to that.

I agree with you. I'd love to see large scale coordination, but even just minor tweaks to where they're not teeing off within ten minutes of one another and on the on the seventy second hole at the exact same time and doing the trophy ceremony at the exact same time, like you had Bob McIntyre talking about his dad catting for him a pretty dramatic win the Canadian Open and Yuka Sasso doing her championship press conference or trophy ceremony at the exact same time, Like we got to avoid that.

Hopefully we got the same get the similar playing conditions at Pinehurst number two and weather. However, the organization is responsible for much much more. Every year, the USGA devotes countless resources to ensuring the game of golf continues to thrive, for generations to come through programs that support junior golf, environmental and sustainability, and handicapping. When you become a USGA member, you play an important role in supporting the game you love.

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let's get to Billy Horsechell. Big thanks to Billy for setting aside some time and being very open with his h with his answers here and uh and then we'll be back after the interview with the recommendations. Here's Billy horsh All right, Billy, you won the Puza Khana and I gotta say maybe the most iconic trophy and golf the white Jacket. I you know, I think the white jacket is in some play in recent years. And I've got a couple questions. Have you worn the white jacket

since winning at Puntakana? And and be where do you keep it?

our kitchen and the hats on top of it. So we're like as a decorative thing, not the showcase the trophy. But yeah, I don't know where the jacket is right now.

that I needed. You know, That's that's what sort of you know, gave me that little electric kick that I needed to to get back in the game where I wanted to be able to finally win a major, to finally get on a Ryder Cup team. You know, I've been playing really well all year up to that event. I felt like there was good stuff coming, and I felt like a win was coming. That's the reason I

went down there. I could easily stay at home. I doal need to go down there to play that event, but I wanted to go down there to continue the momentum that I had early in twenty four and and

maybe get a win under my belt. And so if that leads to, you know, like I said, winning other you know events, and like I said, getting maybe a major and getting on a Ryder Cup team in a couple of years, Like I'm gonna honestly look back at the Crowless event and say, hey, that was you know that a little extra confidence that I needed, just validation

that I needed that we're doing the right things. I still have that ability to win events and and win uh, you know more key events, signature events, you know, legacy events that that I've always wanted to wear.

the Genesis Invitational. You know, I've been fortunate enough to win which is now called the CJ Cup, but the Byron Nelson, any name you can attach yourself to a legend, a Hall of famer, someone who has really dominated a game and changed the game. I mean, I think that's something special in the game of golf, and no one can ever take that away from you.

last three or four years going the major. I look back at a few of the majors and been like, man, I really should have finished top ten there, And one of them was twenty twenty two Saint Andrew's Open Championship. I think I finished like fifteenth or eighteenth, two shots out of a tenth place, and I had five three puts on the greens that week and five three putts from off the greens that week, so it was sort

of a frustrating week. There's other majors where I played really well, and I've had just an awful stretch of night holes that has cost me from possibly making a cut to possibly finishing and inside the top ten. Finally to get that top ten to finally, you know, and I, you know, get that monkey off my back. Honestly, to tell you the truth, it's just like, hey, I've always known I've had the game to be able to compete in majors, and even that week up until Sunday, like

I played really well. I had gotten nothing out of my game, especially the first two days I've played really great and I didn't hold anything, and then lo whole comes Sunday, I hit it awful and I make nearly two other few to putts on Sunday to you know, shoot sixty four and finish top ten. So the game, as we all know, is very fickle, and you know you can never truly you never truly know when you're

gonna do something special. But you just got to continue to stay patient and continue to put yourself and those situations until everything starts coming your way.

You know, you just need to you know, your game needs to be in a really good spot, and you do need to have a little bit luck, and you do need to make some putts, and you do need his some quality iron shots, but you don't need to do it on a regal basis. And I think when you watch Tiger for so long and he talked about peaking and Tiger being a role model of mind, all those things sort of just wrapped itself in the sense of, hey, I need to be perfect playing majors, and so that

was in my head for so long. I think I finally had my breakthrough about, you know, not being perfect at the twenty twenty. Yeah, I would say the twenty twenty US Open at wing Foot that we played in. Was it September, I think or August, I can't remember

what month it was. I had Mark Faulture on the bag future caddy for Justin Rose for a decade plus, and I think just having him on the bag and the confidence that he had and seeing the way you know, he had seen Rosie play and get himself around the golf course and and you know, listing to foods to him, just taking his advice and doing things like that was a big moment. And there's another major right there. Like I was top ten with twenty seven holes left to go.

I think I was a one or two shots off the lead going to the back nine on Saturday, and I just I just didn't play well. I hit some bad shots, I got ahead of myself, I started moving quick, and then I think on Sunday and they had played good good Sunday. But that was another major that I was right there, playing really good golf, you know, twenty seven holes away from you know, finishing off a really good major, having another, you know, possibly get another top ten,

and I just didn't do it. But that that was a breakthrough major for me. I would say that finally got me out of my little headspace about perfection. And I still struggle with it every major, wanting needing to be perfect. The game doesn't feel great. But I've won tournaments on the PGA Tour, not how I mean my you know, fi and all cylinders, you would say, And obviously PGA two courses are completely different than major courses. But it just shows you you don't need to be perfect.

And you watch other players win majors and and you see the mistics day making like okay, that it starts to resonate a little bit more.

a major, whatever it may be. How are the are there little like things over the years that you've picked up that help you do do that better?

to play good golf. It just feels a little bit different. And that's why I think it's so amazing what Scotti Scheffer's doing right now, because the way the body feels every day, the way you swing feels, the way the putt feels, and your hand, everything on a daily basis, like you may get sometimes you get a week where everything feels exactly the same day in and day out, the body feels the same, and other weeks you have

every day feels a little bit different. But you still have to figure out a way to play good golf. You still have to figure out a way that that

allows you to play well. And I think that's why it's so impressed at what Scott He's done, the level he's played at, the quality of ball tricking he has on a daily basis, Because I know personally and maybe maybe I'm different, but made the way I put my hands on feel different every day the way sometimes my setup feels the swing fields and it's just it's just the way the body is, like we want it to feel exactly the same every day, but some of the

fuel is going to be different. But really the technical side and the way the swing feels it's still good. You just have to adjust to that field that day.

his master's press conference. All of his work. The third, first thirty minutes of his warm up are seemingly around the very core fundamental basics of this is how I grip the club, This is how I set up to the ball, this is how I take the way the club away, And it's almost like he's gotten it so stripped down that only so many things can go wrong from the position he's getting in the first thirty minutes of his warm up.

foundation and how strong it is. And maybe you know, he does a better job than I on that, and that's why his feels are probably more consistent on a day to day basis in mind, and not that I'm trying to change anything, but you know, I've tried to as my teacher's always said, Todd Anderson, He's always said that eighty five percent of the time, if something's off and my swing feels off, it falls back into you know, my setup, you know how you know, how I'm set

up to it. Pasture, grit babs, stuff like that is more likely the issue with with me, and so I've tried to be a little bit more diligent over you know, I go through bits and spells, but the more diligent I am about just the basics of fundamental basics of the golf swing. I think the more often that I feel least the feelings on that I would have on a day to day basis are more uh similar in the same.

and listen. It was a misunderstanding. Scotty wasn't trying to you know, dry a cop or run him over or anything. You know, he thought he heard something and so yeah, it's it's funny when you sit back here. Thankfully it's all solved. In anything, we can all sit back and laugh about now a little bit, but it's at the time, I mean, Scotty was a little shookn up by and we've we've all seen the video, Sell.

on with Scotty Scheffler in this police incident. And I think anybody that's been at one of those tournaments, it's it's like it's a chaotic. Getting into a golf tournament is chaotic, and everybody that's ever been there understands exactly what he did, and it just yeah, so it's good it's over.

crucial to my team, very influential. You know, I've evolved over the ten years with him and the sense that everything he gave me early on I listened to to a t and then in the middle stretch I started questioning a lot about you know, his data, and then now we have a great little back and forth with his data and he's involved with his data and the way you play courses and certain misses and everything, and

you know where you miss it. Certain spots may not be good for most people, but based off you know, your short game or certain other skills, it actually isn't that much of a detriment to you. So I think the thing that you know I wish, you know, going back to my year one on twour is I look back as I wish I would have seen, and obviously the game was already going there. But how massive of a distance? You know, hitting the ball is such an advantage if you're able to carry it three hundred three

or five. I mean, it really does open up a big advantage over majority of the field, you know, by having more wedges and by having more short irons, and you know, being able to take out trouble because course designers and architects and the way course are set up. You know, if you you know, the bunker is flying at three hundred and three or five, you know opens up the fairway and takes out you know, those those

trouble spots on on certain courses. So yeah, I mean I over fifteen sixteen years now on tour, it's I've I've learned a lot and evolved with as as a player as any player would can you.

and all the players do the same thing. But we're looking at, you know, the length of the hole, where to miss it all, what side of the fairway, based off the slope of the fairway, based off the slope of the green pen locations, you know, whether it's in the bunk or the rough hitting chips seeing you know, if you're short side yourself or you chipping to that pen location is it going to be sort of the ball in and on the downhill slope running away from the pen, or is it going to be landing on

maybe something of an upslope where you can slow that chip down a little bit. All these little variables go in and so we had a great game plane going in Thursday. And then after Thursday's round, we went back and looked at all the shot linked data of all the shots played on every hole, and I don't know,

I can't remember. We tweaked our game plan or maybe change a few things based off clubs being hit off tee, based off certain areas where guys were missing it around the greens, just to you know, give ourselves an advantage, and and some of that shot link that we looked at sort of just validated what we had already made.

Came to that conclusion before we teed off on Thursday, like, hey, by being more aggressive on this tea, it's it's an advantage by hitting driver, because yeah, guys were in three woods, but if you miss affair with three woods, you know you hit it in the rough. You know, guys was you know, averaging you know, four point three from the rough and guys that were missing it by hitting driver, were averaging four point one if they missed the fairway.

So just those little those those little data points sort of validates what we do, you know, the decisions that we make, and gives us competence on the tee that we do have the right club and we are playing the right shot.

They hit it up there. And I watched this unfold and I'm like, oh my god, this is so simple if you just play it this way. And it's got to be nice when you can sit back and look at how every exactly how everybody in the field played

a hole. When you're you know, after a round, if it's the first time playing playing course or the first time in a long time playing course where you can see how everybody played the hole and look at like, okay, everybody's playing this way, maybe I should do something a little differently.

that point eight or nine times the event. On number thirteen, the short part foward there, everyone usually hits maybe like a long iron, maybe five wood off the tee, get it to around one hundred and fifty marker keeps you shore of the bunker on the right, and you have like a wedgend, you know, depending on of the wind,

you know, maybe nine iron, eight iron. And that week, I don't know what we did in the practice on ourselfing, but we had three wood off the tee and it must have been in the practice isner and we got way down there where we were guaranteed a sand wedge or gap weg and the majority of time the winds in and off the right there and it swirls, and the way that green sits, the way it gets so firm and the pin locations like you know, it can make a tricky second shot sometimes, but by pushing three

wood down there, we had sand wedging or a lob wedgen every day. And I think I played the whole two or three in the par the best I've ever played it. And it's pretty wide. It still is pretty wide obviously visually it looks narrow, and see the bunker on the left, bulk on the right, and sometimes you don't want to go in the ferry bunkers because you catch it a little fat. There's water there. But we

played that hole aggressively and it paid off. And I'm curious to see if in the years that come, if that whole of guys start being more aggressive off the tee and push it down there, very similar to like the fourth hole here at tipp Sawgrass where Braindo's done an unbelievable Raydeld Shambley has done unbelievable little analysis of that. It talked about how over the years guys used at three with off that hole and the whole play too. I don't know, four point two scoring average, and now

guys hitting driver is playing under poor. I think when you hit drivers, so you know, I wonder if you know when guys are having more you know, performance coaches, staff's coaches, whatever you want to say, course management coaches, they're looking at all this data and all I think they're all going to start looking at, you know, where the scores are coming from it and it changes the way, uh, the hole has been played for so many years.

the future. But that lack of data, players just don't figure out like these hacks, these shortcuts and like you see holes, Like one guy does something and it it's kind of like innovation in any other industry where somebody figures something out, a company figure something out, and it's like off to the races, like how many Uber four x are there? But like one player figures something out and then it becomes you know, almost the gospel on tour.

Everybody does it that way. Do you think that major is the lack of the lack of is part of what makes the course, the courses more challenging.

are different slopes and different shapes and everything. So that was a new aspect last week at Colernal Country Club. So the more we play a course, obviously just by playing even out without the data aspect, we learned by what we did personally on those holes when we played,

and by watching other playing partners. And then now having the data aspect, you can go back and look at things and see how the majority of the fuel played it and for the longest point, for the longest time, the majors have had this data, and they haven't really at least it like shot like we get on shot

Link on the radio time on the PGA tour. But now we're getting they've allowed us access and my guy Orty heat Uh, he's finagled his way over the years to get some of these these data, you know, shot link data stuff that other other people haven't. But now it's becoming more reletive, you know, available to everybody else. So it's still it's still a challenge because we just don't have a lot of data. We don't have a lot of history on it. Like you said, we're not

playing on a yearly basis. The conditions aren't always the same. You know, when you play five six years in a row, you see them pretty much every type of conditions over a five year period. But like in fourteen it was very dry and I'm not sure which way the wind is blown, but you know, the conditions could be changed with the temperature, the course conditions, the wind directions. I mean, it's very similar going to Oakumart. I think next year,

you know, all these things come into place. So there's not a lot of data, you know, that we can can use to really make you know, feel confident about some decisions that we make a lot of times.

native grass around off the fairways. Really my mic preparation for Pinehurst because it's the driving isn't going to be nearly as You're not gonna have to it nearly as accurate as you would, let's say, back in two thousand and five US opening, when it was tight fairway's long rough where you really did need to hit the fairway. Now you know, if you do miss a fairway sort of a fifty to fifty chance depending on the lie, you're gonna probably be able to get it up around

the green and control it for the most part. So we all know about pieheurse greens and you know the way they all run off, So you're gonna have to have really really precise iron play. I remember Martin Kimer putted his way around there. Listen, he's not It's no secret that his short game is not that strong chipping the ball, but he has an unbelievable touch with the putter. And I just learn putting from everywhere. So that's a

lot of stuff. I'll do that week and see how much we can chip, see how much we can putt. But for me, it's it's, you know, over the next couple of weeks or next ten days before I get there, I'm gonna really work hard on my iron play and really have control of the golf ball the distances. Because the guy it's very similar to a gusta. I think the guy who hits the most greens, or the guys that hit the most greens are going to be up there near the lead come Sunday.

more forgiveness around there. But yeah, I don't change much. I'm not one of those tinkers on a regular basis. I'm not changing my wedges out. I'm not changing my I'm not changing the bounce on my wedges a lot. So yeah, like I said, I'm a creature of habit. When I have something that no works, I'm going to keep it that way because under the pressure pressure situation, I want to know, like how my club's going to perform when when I hit a certain shot.

spin or it's going to come out with spin. All those little things is an advantage in then green reading, understanding the grain, how much it affects a putt based off speed and everything. It's just sort of intuitive now for me, you know, being thirty seven, you know, playing golf for thirty five years, thirty thirty four years, and and the majority of my all my life, I've been on meta grass. The grass I probably struggle with the

most is poema, and it's just on the greens. You know, it's weird to me when I start seeing you know, footprints and intentions and different you know, the grass grow at different heights, so it was whenever I see that and two degrees, I just want to hit it harder. For some so it rolls smoother and it doesn't bounce

as much. But I've learned that's not always the case on poeana greens sometimes because last thing you want to do is have a six footer and try to ram it in there and you miss, and you got another six footer on you know, bumpy greens, and you're like, oh man, I now I'm just gonna lag this one up there, so I don't have another six footer. But

I've learned a little bit. But yeah, I think it is an advantage because I think Bermuda grass not that it can't be learned, but it does take some time to understand all the lies and the way it comes out and reading the lies. It does take some time to learn that a little bit. And I'm not saying it can't be done. Obviously guys have done it. Tiger have probably done it the best. You're coming from California, but it is the one that I think is toughest. It takes more time to learn as Bermuda grass.

things that gives the bottom player the most fits. It's really like you you just as you said, it takes a long time to learn it, and I think when the ball gets in the rough, that that might be the most unpredictable situation that you guys are faced with on any regularity on the PGA tours. Would you agree with that?

tough to judge no matter what. But you know, when we go to courses that have immuta rough, it is crucial to find the fairlies. It really is. I mean there's no doubt about it. I mean look at Sedgefield, I mean Central Country Club. I mean, yes, you do shoot twenty under because it's so short. But if you look at one of those things there that's so important that week play well is drive accuracy. If you hit it in the fairway. You have so many wedges and

so many short irons. If you hit in the rough, you know, majority of times you're probably missing the cut. The guys up near the lead are the guys that are hitting it in the fairway, have the highest percentage of fairways hit that week. It's so tough to judge, and that's why Colonial was so such a great challenge

because of the rough they have. I would love to see us play more of Bermuda grass because I think it does it does a multitude of things that it challenges the modern day golfer ol the rough, but it also requires us to be more accurate and hit it into the fairway because of the the un you know, the nature of the unnature lies of that we get

and everything. So, you know, I know there was talk of possibly maybe making the PGA Championship going down to the Concession I think in the early twenty thirty twenty one, I mean thirty one thirty somewhere around there. I'm hoping that still is you know, Concession Golf Club is still a opportunity or still is in the running, because I think that's a great course down there in Sarasota. It's we played the.

think the courses that really do challenge us. The most that I think worry us a little bit is when we do have bermuda grass rough off the fairways.

Do you guys, are there courses that you think are very challenging, like in terms of like like stimulating your thought, like where your nervous around shots, but scores are super low. What are examples of those courses where you know the scoring on the week might be really low, but you feel like you really have to hit shots to get there?

I'm sure there's some other courses that I'm forgetting about in that in that rotation, but yeah, there's not a lot of that where even though it's seventy one hundred yards or something, I mean, you still you know, you know that if you don't miss, you don't hit the fairway, it's still gonna have a challenging shot to try and hit the green and put in the right spot, and with the undulations and the greens and everything, it's still a challenge.

I think part of the reason we're seeing players get more aggressive is the realizing the value of distance, but it's also gotten a little bit easier to swing with driver and be aggressive. Does it take less skill now.

argued this for a decade. You know, when they started saying the golf ball goes to for them, like it's not really necessarily the golf ball guys, I said let's throw and track me and probably a number one reason being able off to my stuff. Let's throw in the golfer. You know, guys are more athletic now, bigger, stronger, faster. Let's throw in the equipment, lighter shafts, bigger clubhead, bigger center,

sweet spots. Guys have made a career on the PGA Tour because of technology that you know, twenty years ago, they probably wouldn't have a career in the PGA Tour. And I believe that if we brought the driver head back. And my thing is, I don't want to take distance away necessarily, I want to take I want to bring back in. When you mishit it off the stay of

the face, it goes more offline. And when if you did that, then I think distance would rain itself back in because guys would be, you know what, it'd be going at it, you know, out of their shoes and swinging as hard as they possibly can on on somewhat of a regular basis, because they know now if they do miss it, it's not going to go that far

off line. Like I heard Bryson say something recently recently, like you know, when I hit it off the toe like I want to go in the fairway, you know, I needed to go in the fairway, and so that's why the driver he uses and some other stuff he's done, and especially these new irons. This is what I heard that I didn't play Augusta, so I was listening to live from you know, his bulge on his irons, Like when he hits it off the toe, like it corrects itself and comes back online, it doesn't go as far

off line. I'm like, that's awesome. That technology is like that that we have that a building now. But we're professional golfers. We need to get rewarded for hitting the center of this face. Like that is what we're supposed to do at the highest level of golf. And we've taken that away from the professional golfer, and we still do amazing things with the golf ball that the recreational

golfer can't. But man, how more impressive would it be if the center of the sweet spot on irons in the club had or the driver in the fairway wards went back down to what we had maybe twenty years ago in the early two thousands, Like that would be impressive because guys want to be you know, would want to make sure they hit the center of the face and that would slow the club had slowed, their clubs

be down. Like I just saw a clip on social media this morning of Bryson playing on YouTube with you know an old set of clubs, yeah, Hickory Yeah, and you saw how fast he swung. He didn't swing anywhere near as fast. I don't know where the shot went, but the club had so small I guarantee it he's not swinging one hundred and thirty plus miles per hour. And if he is, if he misses it, it's gonna

go offline. Now if he hits it in the center of face and it goes three hundred and twenty yards, that it's down the middle of fairway, let's stand up again around the plaus because that was impressive that.

feeling out your golf swing how it feels. And if you're really cooking, then you start to go at it and you start to hit. You know, you're you're you're swinging at it. But if it doesn't feel good, like you have to stay It's like you have to stay in second gear, yeah, and you have to continue to feel it out, and because you know, if you go

at it, there is big misses. Like one of the things that I found like the most is like I couldn't believe how many pop ups I hit, because like it's like the high towball with the four hundred and sixty cc that goes just as far with a with a per simon or a small head. Is like a pop up out to the right that goes like eighty yards short of what you know normally hit. And I think that's like what you're talking about. I think the ball,

like the ball being addressed. It seems like in the manner it's going to be, is going to be a pretty negligible difference by the time we get to twenty twenty eight, twenty twenty nine, with the way the game continues to grow, like distance continues to grow, it's going to be pretty negligible to what it was a year ago. But the driver head, that's that's where as you've said it would make a fundamental difference on how people play.

I think the scare of the what they're worried about is like the idea of pros playing different equipment than amateurs, which it's just not the same game. You guys play with grandstands and get TiO left and right.

That just does the blows my mind that they're able to be that, you know, miss of a center and still get rewarded for. And that's why I said technology is way. We've all reaped the benefits, but at the highest level. We should we're the most talented, we're the most skillful. We should have to be able to, you know, test our skill level and either stand listen. I was for not changing equipment because you know, amaers want to

play what we play. But end of the day, like I said, this, let's the if you get someone into the game of golf, let them have all the big stuff and easy stuff to hit. And as they progress as a golfer and get better as a golfer, if they want a challenger skill level, then let them go to a a you know, there's gaming proven irons and then there's player iron player you know, skill irons or

whatever they call them. You know they're gonna change. And you know what, let's have another set now where it's professional highest level, smaller heads, sweet spots, you know, you know, reduced in size, and if they get to the level that they want to see how much you know, they get to scratch golfer and they want to take the equipment that the pros use, Let's let them have that opportunity to But it's not gonna change to what the

amateur golfer does and what they buy. They're gonna buy a tailor made driver because Roy mcwory plays the tailor made driver, you know, because they hit it. He hits a far like they're not whether it's the same ex act one or whether it's a different one. They're buying Taylor maid because they like Roy McCrory, he's his favorite golfer. They're not using his irons because they're not good enough to use his irons. They're gonna use a different set

of Tailor maids. But they're saying, hey, I played Taylor Made because Roy mcwory plays tailor made.

be the leader in that that arena. And I've always said I think the PGA Tour will always be the leader, will always be the best place to play the game of golf. Now, when it comes to the players that left, like, as I've said, I don't it didn't bother me. You know, they made a financial diss decision that they thought was best for the family. And I'm happy now. Do I wish some of those guys that leave, Sure, but they made a decision and I'm never, you know, uh, sending

bad about them. I've always sort of called them out on some of their comments that they said that we're sort of hypocritical and and we're lies. But at this point in time, I believe for the best thing for the game of golf, for the best thing for fans, I think we should do a deal with PIFF, I think listen, they're they're involved in a lot of a lot of sports in the game. Uh, they've been other sports,

They are involved in businesses. They're going to be around this in this world for a long long time because they've got hundreds of trillions of dollars and it's not going away anytime soon. And if they want to really come into the game of golf and and help the game of golf grow that, I think we need to sit with them and see if we can come to a resolution that that works with both sides. I would hope that that we do do a deal with a game of golf. I mean, with PIFF, that's for the

game of golf. I believe, you know, whether it lives, stays around or not, I don't know. I do believe they've shown there is a team aspect that can be successful. I think when they you know, when it's more about the team and their their tournaments and their championship, I think it's their best product. But an individual fifty four

whole thing just that's not golf. That's I mean, I'm not saying it's not golf, but it's not the future of the game of golf, as I've said for so long, seventy two holes has always been the the indicator where it stays the standard. It will always be the standard. And I believe that, you know, and all this stuff that's going on, I truly believe the fans are just tired of all this bickery. And I'm tired of it all.

Trust me, I've I've put myself in the middle of it a little bit, and I'm still tired of it. I want I want a resolution. I think the fans are tired of us talking about money. And I've said it for many years, you know, to the tour, especially around the FedEx Tour Championship. Let's let us stop talking.

Tell the announcers stop talking about how much of FedEx winner it gets, Like no one wants to hear that the FedEx wires getting ten, fifteen, eighteen, twenty million dollars, like they're making peanuts compared to what we're going to win this week. And all they want to see is an unbelievable competition between players. They don't care about the money aspect of it, and for us to continue to bring up the money it just turns viewers off.

unquote defection. Does that actually seem to be a big sticking point among players or is that more of a media narrative that's that it's a huge sticking point for you guys.

to at some point in time. You know, I've had many discussions, like I said, for about five to seven years on that. I think that's what maybe one of the sticking points are I think, uh, I think some of the guys in the negotiations, you know, some players on tour, whether they're in the negotiations or not in negotiations, maybe don't want to travel. You know, let's just say this, the PGA Tour players become less global than than ever

before since of traveling around the world. And I read my college coach telling me buddy Alexander said, if you truly want to be a global superstar and be considered one of the best in the game, you have to travel around the world. You have to play in different countries, on different courses and different you know, cultures, and be successful, be considered a global star, being considered a global golfer. And so I believe that is where the game of

golf should go. But like I said, I mean, the PJ Tour has been so successful and and the domestic side and and really successful in the commercial aspect of it. On the PJ Tour, that guys don't have to travel as they used to, you know, decades ago, And I think that's been a little bit of a detriment to the PJ Tour. And to the golferself. I mean, I know, just a little bit I've traveled over the last you know, handful of years. I've enjoyed it. It's something I've always

wanted to do. I look back and I wish I would have done it soon in my career and made a better conservative, conservative effort. But you know, being giving that, you know, going to those places and giving back to the fan and letting them see you, touch you, talk to you like that's a big thing. Like how how that you know, you know, enhances your brand and then enhances the PJ Tour brand when you come back because now they're going to follow you even closer. Like that

goes a long way. So I think, you know, I'm not saying it's the main sticking point, but I think it's one of the talking points is that you know, some guys on tour don't really want to travel globally, and then there's a section of players that don't mind traveling globally if a world tour is created.

and my wife are another piece of my life. And they understand, you know, you know, what I want to do. They understand my sacrifice. They make the sacrifice for themselves to not see their dad and their husband, but they see me living out a dream I've always wanted to do. And that's what I'm showing my kids is I'm living out a dream I've always wanted to do. So when they do grow up, they have that role model that Hey, I want to live out my dream. Whatever my dream

may be, whatever their dream may be. You know, they want to do it because of you know, they saw their dad being able to do it. So and the advantages are just the way that these countries, these cities, these tournaments have embraced me. Like it's truly amazing to go over to London and see the support I get when I go play BMWPJ. Yes I've wont it, but even from the first time I went over in twenty nineteen,

like I was embraced wholeheartedly. It was great. Like last year I played in France at the Golf dashaw where the Olympics is gonna be. I'm gonna go back this year, Like that was an awesome event. Being staying in Versailles and seeing the history and everything else, Like that's so cool, Like just getting outside your bubble and going to different countries and cultures, like you grow as a person, not only as a golfer, but you grow more as a person.

And that's what I've really enjoyed doing. And my kids are going to have that experience, you know, going and traveling with me to these countries. You know, in a few years and come to these tournaments and seeing these other cultures and everything. My little ones out here mimicking me a little bit, but it's uh, say hi Kobe.

So but like I said, I and you don't have to go play ten to twelve events like going to play four or five like that that does a lot, Like it does a lot, Like we need to remember we got to give back to the fan and we got to get back to the fans and by me going over to play these other countries and other tournaments, like I'm I'm showing them the things that they've given me from across the pond and supported me. And I

think that goes a long way. Like we have to remember like the fans are one of the reasons, the sponsors are one of the reasons why we are able to play for what we play for today.

You know, there's a couple other places over in Europe that I probably haven't gotten to that I want to go check out. But it's amazing when you go outside the country, Like you see how golf hungry these fans are.

And you know, like I said, we know the PGA Tour is the biggest and greatest tour in the world and that's where the best players play on a regular basis, and fans them all over the world are watching PJ Tour events, whether you know it's in the middle of the night or the Washington tape, the Labe, they're they're

watching us play these PJ Tour events. And so by going there and seeing them where they live and playing these courses, like they were so appreciative of the players that do that, and they're so thankful, and like I said, they're able to see you they will touch you, you know, smell you, you know, talk to you, whatever it may be. You know, they just have a you. You create that bond, You create that sense of closeness even more with the fans than before.

here in the States. It's about west Ham and Millwall and it has nothing to do about literally the football aspect of on the pitch. It's more about the two clubs. And there's the supporters of hooligans that they they fight before after games, you know, during games, they meet up to these these these little fights, and and there was you know, they ranked themselves in the sense of who had the better you know, you know, supporters and sense of fighting. And I just fell in love with the movie.

I fell in love with watching it, fell in love with west Ham, fell in love with their song Forever Blowing Bubbles, uh, and so from there, like I always was aware of, you know, the club, but it wasn't until probably the early twenty eleven twenty twelve when it started being shown here in the States the Premier League was on NBC that I watched more often and then now we'll all the streaming services. I can watch their game whenever I want. I can watch any Premier League game,

and I do watch. I watch probably more English Premier League football than any of the sportball. Well listen, there's only twelve football games a year or thirteen. But yeah, I mean I watch so much football now, it's just a sport. I love. I love their support that all their supporters of the club give and rivals college. It's actually probably better than college football support. And one aspect

of this is why I say this. I may us people aren't going to understand this, but when you go to college, like you became a fan of that team, probably because you started going to college, you weren't a fan of that team more likely and before you went there, and so obviously you supported that club for since you

were in college and since you've been out of college. Well, in English football and a lot of these football clubs around the world, these fans grew up were born into supporting this club because their father, grandfather have been falling. So it's in their blood. They live and die by this stuff. I mean, they are willing to go to battle unlike any other support club that I've ever seen, and I said, SEC football is the closest thing that

rivals it. But like I said, when it's life and death to that family, it's amazing to see just how much it matters to them. And I can resonate with that. I can resonate with that passion, like it's so cool and so west Ham has been unbelievable. People knew for a few years and I was a west Ham supporter, but it wasn't really solidified until I wore I had the west Ham bag out at the twenty twenty one Open Championship and then it and absolutely blew up, like

the club. One of the club owners, Trip Smith, and then morek Noble. When I told them what I was doing, They're like, man, when this gets when people see this, like west Ham will take you under their wing. You will be one of their own. And I am one of their own now, Like it is amazing. Wherever I go, I always hear it, come on your Irons or up the Hammers when I go to the UK, like I am one of their own, like I've been one of Like it's like I'm family to them, and that is

that's the coolest thing. And I'm so appreciative of it. So I love it. It's been one of the coolest things to be a part of. And yeah, it's it's I I said, I'm so appreciative of the sport that they've given me, not only West Ham fans, but Premier League fans, the clubs of other teams, because it's very easy for uh, you know, someone like me or anyone who has never been you know, has a club to you know, jump onto, like a main city or main United,

Arsenal and Chelsea. But I support a club like west Ham that up until last year we hadn't won a trophy and I think nearly four years. And and you know, we're a blue collar club, we're always we've we've been relegated several times and we're not a top club. So it's I think they can appreciate that aspect and and and that you know that side of what I've done.

not especially if not playing while they were quiet. And then when they do score a goal and they you know, they they get into it. But I musten, I'm gonna get killed from Chelsea fans by saying this, but it's very posh. They're very posh and it's a very posh part of London and and and it's nice. That's listen. I like going to the Chelsea you know a district because it's beautiful and it's great restaurants, and it's really cool.

But they're very posh uh fans and they live up to that tea and so listen, it's very like I said, it's easy to choose, you know, some of these clubs that are being successful and everything. But I would say, if you really want to get into it, like really really do your research, really understand the club really, like you know, connect with it based off you know, other things and just the success to the clubs.

joy in that. And that's just stuff that you can hold on to for the rest of your life.

Let's move on, you know. And I'm like, and I say this, and I'm like, I say this in nice way. This course far exceed your guys this talent level, and this course is to challenge somewhat of my talent level. Now I'm not trying to be a dick by saying that, but listen, you guys aren't used to playing rough. That's three inches four inches long, firm faskings like this is

far exceeds what you guys are used to. But my goal today is to make sure you have a great hole or hit one unbelievable shot that you go back and tell your golf buddies for the next seven months. And I hit a five iron from two hundred yards, you know, with water on the left. I hit the fifteen feet in May burry, Like, that's what that's my goal.

I'm going to make sure you have one of those moments that you can go back and tell your golf buddies for months that you hit this great shot on this whole.

likely to hit a better shot than you are. You know, a player that's you know, won the FedEx Cup and they are going to be able to go home and say to their friends, you know, I hit a closer than Billy Horshall on the fourth hole and that, Like, nobody could ever say that about basketball, right, I'm not if I played one on one with you know, any player in the NBA, I would not score a point.

excited than you know. I wouldn't say winning a golf tournament, but it comes very close to that because it's so cool to see the enjoyment they were having on the golf course, like hitting that shot, having that moment like that may be one of their greatest moments top five moments in their golf career, Like that's so cool to see, Like I enjoy, you know, trying to accomplish that for them.

his mind, so I really enjoyed. I think him talking about being a global player was probably the part that resonated most with me, and his willingness to travel around the world and talk about the benefits of that versus it being a burden, Like I think he sees the bigger picture there a little bit in a way that some other PGA Tour players need to get on board with.

That might have been my favorite part. I don't know what was your favorite party, Andy, I thought the whole I thought he was great the whole time.

a very humanizing and relatable thing. And I think like the way Billy Horsechell handled that hole all of last year was like I think it won him a ton of fans, and because he was willing to talk about it, very open about it, and you could tell from the way how open he was, how much of a toll it was taking on his like on him, I think so, I think you know that that him. It's been one of the fun things to watch this year, him getting his game back, winning obviously and returning as a top

fifty player in the world. Like, that's been really enjoyable to watch. So big thanks to Billy for coming on. What's your recommendation?

planning his death, wants to die at ninety five. And you see his full time employees. It's a huge scale operation. He has a ton of full time employees. They're kind of angling to take over the business once this guy retires. It was described to me as a mixture between like Tiger King and Succession, where you just have again a group of kind of odd people that are running this big business and angling like they don't talk about owning the business, talk about being king of the empire, like

a lot of weird personalities. Watched the first episode very amusing.

This year's I'm I think it's probably the best one we've done. I think last year's lacc one was pretty great too, But this one we had billcore And and Jeff Ogilvie on to talk. So Jeff, you know, from a player that's played in US Opens at Pinehurst number two, and then Bill Corr, who obviously did the big restoration of Pinehurst number two in the I think two thousand and nine twenty ten. So this was this was a big production and we're very proud of it and it's

going to be It's up on YouTube. Go check it out. It's about twenty minutes. Put it on your big screen. You know, got get that YouTube app fired up on your on your TV. Put it on the big screen, kick back and enjoy. I Uh, it's some beautiful footage. And and unbelievable interviews with h with Core and Ogilvy. So I would check that out and thank you guys for listening and all the support. And if you like that Pinehurst video, subscribe to our YouTube feed. We uh

we throw stuff up there. We hopefully throw more stuff up there in the near future. But big thanks to Matt Ruschis for editing and producing this podcast. We'll be back later this week with another episode. It should be Pinehurst centric, so it should be getting you ray for that US Open, and then next week we're at the US Open. You'll be at the US Open. You got it. What are you most excited for for covering your first major in person?

It's gonna be quite different than what we see weekend and week out, so if people don't remember the twenty fourteen US Open at Pinehurst, it's a completely different esthetic and style of play than what you'd see like at the Canadian Open.