Bill Coore - Part 2

longer than the tenth in terms of actual yard. Each other score right down if you'd played there, you know, the second hold flat. He goes out there and it was built to be a long for big opening in front. Tenth home goes kind of cascaded down that hills, got the creek that winds in front of it. There much

more spear green. So anyway, but Brian was saying, this is you know, they said, this has come up more than just from the golf coach and we're getting ready to open, we're going to apprentice score cards and we're good all this stuff. He said, what do you say to that? And I went through and why the second home and then I saw a flu bumpily just said,

I said well, brun and does it really matter. I mean, it basically is, you're going to play the whole regardless of what the par is, and you're gonna put down a number after you played it, you know, So what difference is it? I said, for that matter, you just put no par on the scorecard and no one will ever know Ryan he laughed. And the next thing I know, they decide, well, let's try this. We'll put it in

no par on the scorecard. We'll needless to say. You can imagine uproar that creating, so that all came out of it. Just I wasn't really being serious about don't put any par on the score card. But I've seen scorecards, you know, and no parum So that's what.

And Mike davis idea was, let's make the fourth home a really long four because the entrance to the green is such so much more receptive from real all four, and the green on number five is so severe. Let's build a new t for five way back and play five as a part five. Well, of course this went against things that had happened there in previous US Opens. It was quite an internal controversy, but Mike sended up perfectly, he said, he said, I promise you, he said, all

the players in the Chims you'd look at this at nine. Yes, these two holes together, four or five. It didn't matters five, four, four or five in their county. If they walk off here with nine on their scorecard for the two holes, they're happy. They're going on. He said, So, however you want to think of it, it's note and he was absolutely right.

this country. And it's much like earlier conversation when you go to one of them, Wow, this is unbelievable, it's fantastic, and you and then you go to another one you oh, wow, that's equally of it. And so what you try to do, or at least I think what we try to do, is appreciate each one for what it is and try to understand each one for what it is and what it was meant to be.

just not in approval. I mean when we worked at number two, of course in Pinners, there was a huge change, huge change both visually, you know, the course played and the whole band I could do Toobe Carb all of us who were working out there with this kid, we just hope that mister Ross, if he came back, you know, not that he's gonna plaud, but at least he would be in approval that this is this is as close as we know how to get to what our sense is he must have intended, and you know the same

thing in other places then we worked. You don't go there to leave your signature. You go there to try to recapture something that was as.

these decades. Well, restored to what which partners number two do you don't want to go back to? And in the case of Pioneers, if it was possible to do to restore to the most perceived to be pioneers number two, and it's very vast, there are some places you simply could not do that anymore. And not not just because maybe they've been now there are thousands of one thousands

of trees, but sometimes there are houses there. They're different, there's a different infrastructure, there's different things that have changed. You know that it's just simply not possible to put it back.

open to a vast array of interpretation. Is whether that difference is good or not not good. So all we can say is we've done our best to present it in a way that we think would be interesting, you know, for those players, the world's best players, as well as the members and the people who play there. We try to create a golf course. It gives a lot of options for them to make their own decisions of what's going to happen. There's trendy forrest me. I think the

very longest players on tour can go there. It's not like we've said you can't hit your driver as far as you will, you know, by the same token, I think we believe that given the firm conditions that we hope will appear to the term with the turf, that not that there are any short players on a tour anymore, but it could be a situation very likely that the longest player in the field could go there and think I can go in here, and the shortest player in

the field could go I can win here and everything cleaned. So it's going to allow a lot of choices to be made by players as to how they want to play, how far down the fairways, and the fairways are wide by the tour standards are extremely wide, and they can choose to play it. I really wish. I don't think you will hear sometimes you hear comments like well, it's whoever puts bass that week, you know where it's a

hunter's golf course. I don't think you'll hear that. I think it's uh, it's going to be more a matter of that there are times there that to be successful you may have to play a different approach to the greens than they might normally play. It's not it's not a point A to B. The c god really interesting.

and Casey's got it really keen. And if it's if the weather is good, wind blows a little, hopefully not too much because it's totally exposed, but wind blows a little and and it's dry, and again that's a very big hit because May in Dallas, Texas is historically I think the web just a horrible amount of for weather. So we'll see, guys.

There's a big bunker out there on the right short of the green, probably twenty five yards so short of the green, and then the green is tiny, tiny, little little so the old steep green sitting there, no bunkers around it, but it's just persed way up, crowned off severely like a pineherds green, shortcut grass in front of it, right of it, behind it, left of it. And you know, I'm sure people would go, look, it was gonna be a piece of cake for these guys because they could

drive the screen. It may be three hundred and five yards maybe, And but the keyt that hole is big bunker is hopefully positioned just properly to the point that all the players on tour I think can hit over the thing is hitting over it is not the primary objective for those guys. It's hitting over it, but not going over the green. So to get a ball for them to just weigh over one over there over the bunker easy. Now they're going to go over the green.

And if you go over the green, I don't care who you are, Houdini is going to have a hard time getting up and down and maybe getting up and down. And you know in three from back over the green, it's just all mode, fairways tight. But now you're trying to get the ball up on this tiny little hubcap thing up there, and if you're not careful, you'll have a John Day experience are up there and back up there and back and exactly. And so the key process would be how do I get over the bunker barrely

just barely over. So I hit that ground, it's just over. It carries me up onto the green, not over. And so that's the type stuff. And we'll see that kind of different presentation, not just that, but presentations throughout the course that those are the kind of decisions they'll have to make. And I think I think some will embrace that,

and some perhaps want me though I was. I was there actually just passed Tuesday through Golf Rider outing, one of the Texas golf writers was told me about he had spoken to Jordan Smith not long ago and said, Jordan, you know, Jordan Blaze out there is basicallycomes home course and his teacher, Cameron Korbick his teachers out there, so you might want to battle Jordan's you know, he knows of course better than anybody. But fast thing Jordan was was talking to him and saying, you know, the course

just gives you a lot offs. You just have to make a lot of decisions. A lot of times those decisions go really well, and sometimes they don't. And according to the golf writer, Speed told him, he said, I've played at you. I've shot six under bar on this course. He said, I've also shot six over you know, So to us, see, that's interesting golf when one of the world's best players says, I have to think about where I'm you know, maybe I'm a hen driver on all them.

Maybe I'm a hen driver on some, maybe not. It's a process of them learning how they want to go about the negotiating of course. And then of course, if you have different wind.

of the court. But really interesting courses allow you to succeed. They give you a challenge and they present a situation, but they allow you to succeed. And oftentimes it's the way the tilt of the ground is, or the way the green sits against a certain slope, or his angles. It's often the small things. It's we all want to notice the giant features, the big magnificent earthworks and that sort of thing, But the detail is the things I think we notice so much, and it is so important.

It's you know, a contour that's six eight inches high in a green, in a spine that runs down the green can dictate like all the way back to the team, if the whole presents itself in a certain way, allowing you to play to the right of the fairway, left of the fairway, or whatever. If you can tell where the pen is though it's on the right of end of the spine, it's on the left, and or man, I've got to play over here over there, And those are the type things we find so interesting.

it's that type of thing, you know. And I think the better the player is the more they're influenced by small things rather than largely because it can be the biggest bunker in the world. Most good players don't worry about hit over, you know, or if there's enough room to decide, they can avoid it. But it's it's just smaller things. It's one of the one of the things I've learned so much from Ben through all the years is how little things do affect the best players in

the world. You know, a certain tilt of the ground in combination with a certain wind angle can make things easier or more complicated, more difficult for a good player. So it's it's often the little things that is important as the big and I think I think so often people look at golf courses and focus on the big picture and sometimes miss the detail.

agree with that. But he will almost immediately a day of Ittilian and so and which is from my perspective, completely understandable and probably from a perspective of building golf courses that can strategically and interestingly challenge the very best players in the world even today, hey of courses that were built many decades ago, I would have to think he would be at the absolute top. Is of course direct school. Oh, it's incredible, It's just it's just incredible.

But I guess to your question, you know, it just seemed like there was a cliche or something once said that when you when you quit learning your dad or something to that effect. I don't know, but yeah, I think each one of our each one of our projects, I think we learned from what we've done, and and then observing what we've done, we obviously learned from what other people have done. There's no question you have to do that. But even in our small little realm, we

we observe what we've done. We observe when it worked, when things worked, when they didn't, and how do we try to get interesting presentations of interesting sites, but do in such a way we minimize the things that don't work and maximize the things that we learned that do. So I don't know that I can give you an absolute example of that other and it becomes cumulative, and the whole thing becomes cumulative in the sense that so many decisions when you're creating a golf course, so many

decisions become pure judgment calls. You can try to base the most statistics, and you can try to do this and that and the other, but the difference in the very best architecture and some of the very worst. It's not that far removed, and you want to walk down the line and you want to make it as interesting as it can be and at the same time not cross over the line, and somehow you just fall into goofiness.

And that may sound weird, but it's it can be a pretty fine line to walk if you look at the you look at the greens at Wingfo But yeah, and you go, mister Tilling has a pretty damn good idea. What was going to work? And what was it? And yet it's on the line. Man, he's walking on that line. And see you go if you you know, we often look at stuff, whether it's like there or an oak munt, and going could we ever build these greens? First of all, I don't think I think Ben would agree with me.

I don't think either of us think that we're so proud of the guys that we work with. We're prejudiced. We happen to think they're the best. But at the same time, when you see things like the Conjours or the greens at Oakmont, or you go to wing Foot and you just you just see things summer set hills, you go to look at the greens Summerset Hills and you go, are you kidding me? Who thought of this? How did he think of this?

We try, but we're very much aware, and particularly on some sites that are pretty severe, that you think something's you know, you put the first presentation out there, I think this is the best we know how to do on this, and then you watch it, and you watch people play it over a period of time, and then if if you believe, you sincerely believe you can refine something or make something better, make it more playable, or make it more interesting for more than just one classic offer.

You don't just look at it. How do we make this tougher for the college players or the tour players or something. How could we do something? Could we do something here that would influence make this more interesting for the members, for the resort players, or the guests or the best players in the world. That's whatever we can we do this? Can we accomplish that and make it

more interesting. That's when you make a move, and or when something just simply you know, just think, well, we did the best we could at the time, and now, hindsight being pro bbial twenty twenty, we probably should have done something a little different. We've been fortunate in not having a huge number of those situations. But it was just daylight some and I we're just at Eastampton Golf

Club just a month ago. And the little drop shot Part three holder of the seventeenth it was number eight when we were did the switch the lines which a little downhill, just pitch a little pitch down the hill to a plateau green. Part three. The green was that we built simply too severe for the green speeds and maintained and two and for you know, it just didn't it just didn't work. Well. Did it work? Yes, it worked. The members and seemed to have embraced it for years.

For years now I've been I've been talking to the folks at East Tampa about could we just go soften those countries. We can maintain the relationships. So it's not like the the Green can look dramatically different or anything. It just can we we can just make it a little more payable and playable and just a little more fun. And uh, the kid that the guys folks at East Hampton and they were they were very happy with it

to where it was. But this year enough sand and built up from the bunker, you know, coming out of the bunkers around the rim of the green, and it had started to really constricting things they said we we should probably fit for. At the same time, we sawt in the contract a little bit. And then they just reseeded the green away as well. They won't they won't

see it till next season. But yeah, yeah, it's still got you know, it's got a little upper left shelf in a little kind of middle upper thing in the back center and the little dippy thing in the front pen.

and so we like to give it time. And then if we maintain the you know, the connection with the course and we all we get together with the owners and the members in order of the bodies may be that you know that take care of the on the course, take care of the course, and we say, okay, could we do something here that might make it a little more interesting, a little more playable, or whatever the case

may be. So the courses we like, and you're the ones that we do the best we know how to do, and yet we're probably aware that they haven't reached their potential because that potential needs to be gained through stewardship and management over a period of time and seeing how they play and then seeing things that they need some alterations big or small to get closer and closer to their potential. So we we like seeing the courses that progress, maybe not dramatically, but quietly not working.

same as being struck by lightning. You know it just knew he's right back to TV. And that's not the most encouraging advice. But it's not that far off. I mean really in particularly in today's economic world, and it's it's not that it can't happen. If you have a dream to do that would I would say, choose every possible avenue to pursue that dream, and yet make sure there is a serious plan be back up. I would say that to people are who are looking at golf architecture.

I would absolutely say it to people who think they're going to play golfs for a living. There are a lot of gary players out there. You better have plan B. And so. Now having said that, I would study golf courses as much as I possibly could, see as many different ones as they could, I would not necessarily just fall in line and say, oh, this is here's so and so's ranking of courses. This has got to be really good, it's in the top. Whatever. Go make your

own judgments. See enough different things to decide yourself do I like this? And if you do, why do I not like this? Why don't make those judgments on how you played that day? If you play, make them upon why didn't you like it? Or why do you like it? Have to have to put up a reasonable defense of your position, and by you know, you may see a golf course it's not on anyone's ranking of anything and think it's better than maybe the one that's the highest

rank of any ranking you see. That's okay, that has merit that idea of thinking, I appreciate this course more. Just get to the point you understand why you appreciate it. And then if you if you got put in a position to defend it, how would you defend it? So

beyond that. I would also say if you're able to do it, if you're financial situation as such, or if you can survive when extorted in minimal finances and that sort of thing, you don't have a family you're responsible for, then go get engaged in the business of building these things. Start at the ground. Starting at the ground is not fun, but start if you have to, as a labor with a maintenance crew on a golf course, then a construction crew.

Find out how these things get built, and then interact, if possible, with the people who are making the decisions as to how they're being built, and then if possible, with people that are making decisions how they're being designed, and just get engaged in the process. I mean, if you can learn how to do that and get a sense of what actually occurs. Because we all have the thief, we can all study the books and we can all

come up with the talking point. But when the push comes to shadow, as they say, how do you get it done? And you can talk about risk and reward, and you can talk about all the strategy you can talk you can talk about all these things. All you want to do, you make the most beautiful sketches with how do you get it done on the ground. That's a whole another thing. And I remember Pete telling me in years ago too, is it one thing you'd have to learn. You've got to understand how to talk to

the guide on the machine. That's another cutting through to the most simplestic way. I'm staying communicating, you've got to understand if you're expecting something to happen in terms of contour, how do you get that message through? And if you know how to do it yourself, if you're physically capable of running a piece of equipment and creating something yourself, it's a huge advantage because even if you're struggling to communicate somebody else, you can show an example. This is

what we're talking about. This is this is how, and you start to build those relationships with the people who are making it happen. And it works the other way because when they realize you, first of all, have been willing to do that and secondly understand a bit of what they're going to that respect and appreciation is going to increase dramatically, and then communication is going to be

much much better. So I've said that our guys, you know, we've got guys that have worked with us for years ago off and do their own designs and they're just doing some absolutely beautiful stuff. But they're able to do it because they're also not only that they can think about the design, the theory, the strategy and risk award, they're able to get it done on the ground. So particularly some of these lower budget golf course which they're all they're gonna be more one of those as time

goes by. But when that those courses, if you have the ability to literally create your ideas yourself on the ground, you had a huge edge start because then the lower budget situations, well, I get this guy, he designed it, but he can also make it happen and work with the guys now. Years ago that was very difficult to do because you're either the designer or you were a

constructor or a builder or something. So the design build thing back many years ago was you know, I'll say it wasn't looked upon so favorably, but it's absolutely the way of the future.

they have a you know, a contractor actor Willison. I'm believe me, I'm very great admiration for golf course builders and they do fabulous work. But there's sometimes you just got to have a little bit of both and and to make it happen. And there's a prime example, and uh Dave Oxen and Dan Prompter who worked with us. They went out there to Wildhorse Gothenburg, Nebraska, in the tiny little town in the you know, the edges of the sand hills there in Nebraska, and they built us

this eighteen year old golf course. It must have been fifteen years ago or so. It's still considered one of the best public golf courses in America. Yes, and I think, I think it may be considered the best, very low priced point golf course in America. And it's because they worked with a contractor and they worked with construction people do it, but they designed it and helped build it themselves with the with you know, the assistance of the golf course contractor.

So and and and yet even to this day, his ability to roll the golf ball on putting service is just the thing to behold. He just is. He does it time after times, just the ability to visualize a line and get the proper speed and then to get the vault and just roll over and over towards the hole and almost invariably will end up either touching the hole or being extremely close to it. And you see it so often you just take it for granted, and it just you know, we were talking some earlier about

people who are truly extraordinary. They're what they do make it look so easy even you believe you can do it. And so I've looked at this for years and ago I can do that. Well, it doesn't quite work out that way, you know, And so I don't know the be in an agreement of this, but three years men has extraordinary I say, even to this day, and I truly believe that that is a part of his heat. Can see the movement of grass and things on cutting surfaces in a way that I've never seen anyone else.

And you know, I truly believe that's part of it. And of course he's incredible touch his build to just roll a poll from the proper line at proper speed, and it's so as as much as he's been touted as being one of the worlds, is not the world's best putters. I think his reputation is under state.

I think it's I think those are extremely interesting situations. Now you don't want to just overdo it. You know, it's bright. So if you from our perspective, if we're laying out a hole and the second shot is over the hill to a green, you don't see it. We will very very seldom lock down the hill where you can see it.

was a part of the game. Your ability to play a wooden shot into a part three in order to exhibit that skill, the accuracy as well as the distance into you know, into a part three was a significant part of the game. I think it's harder to do these days because the distance the ball goes and everything. You know, it used to be a two hundred and fifteen or twenty yard hole. It's just extraordinarily long. And it was it was a wood shot, yeah, you know,

and now it's a same yeah. And so we go, really, so we're gonna build two hundred and eighty yard part three, We're gonna build three hundred yard Part three. That's when I think it starts to get I start to question. So I think that the change in the distance the ball goes has changed that equation dramatically.

hitting the ball. I happened to know how far they were hitting because we've been measuring to some of these buckers and you'd have to stand there and wait from the hit. We were working that particular day, but had to wait for them as I just measured everything. They hit the ball two ninety five to three zho five in the air, in the air and you go, and

then some of them beyond. But it was like, really, really, that's so when you do that, how long do you have to make the whole to not have a sevener?

I was being disrespectful. I thought I wasn't. But I just will in generally made the course shorter and wider, and there's just this pause on his What I said, I said, don't mean that the sound probably is probably the way it probably came across, I said, But it's true, I said. We haven't worried about land We haven't tried to make the holes. I said, First of all, it's on one hundred and forty acres training for Here's it's on the landfill. You can't drop off the side of

the land fell. You just you come find you can't make their holes. You just can't make me longer. So we weren't out there trying to. So how do we make this longer and longer and longer. We're gonna make fairways wide enough to have to choose a line, choose the wrong line. The longest players better choose a proper line or they will go through the fairway into something they maybe I like. So they have to choose the lines.

And then that's what we're adding with. And then even a little bit short because generally speaking, the guys, the guys seem to struggle the most with distance control. It's not can you hit it far enough over something everybody can do that. Can you hit it precisely enough someplace and with the contours of the greens, being such that you need to land your ball properly, either short of a contour or over a contour or that sort of thing with if the if the turf is firm, then

we feel like that's that's that's what we're doing. It also provides interest for the members and your guests. But you know we're we're not up. First of all, we don't really do tournament courses, but we do courses that sometimes they play tournaments on, and so we'll see.