Bill Coore - Part 1

up playing basically on very very well affordable courses. I'm talking very affordable, which meant they weren't necessarily at the top of the scale in terms of architecture usually, but I was also able to be exposed to courses like Pioneers Number two had like Old Town Club, and those two courses I think came together to form my understanding that probably became collectively they became the cornerstone of my understanding of what interesting golf course architecture was all about.

So I was exposed to Pinehurst first, but then when I was at wake Forest for four years there in the Old Town Club literally being adjacent to connected to basically the campus, I would walk there with my golf bag in the afternoons and began playing golf. And the students can do that at the time for a dollar. They could play Old Town Club for one dollar. If you finned in, paid your dollar, and you played even

the private club, but Old Town. The more I played it, the more I realized that it was just fascinating, and the more I began to think about golf architecture, and actually Udy got architecturally more, I began to realize how truly gifted Old Town was and what Perry Maxwell did there on that site.

those hills and the valleys and made them working. Though they're in close proximity to each other, you don't ever feel like you're in danger, and necessarily when you're playing golf. He just did it in such beautiful fashion, and like so many things that when it's well done, it looks so simple. And so I played Old Down for a long long time before it finally struck me as to gee, how did you actually make this work? How do you get all these holes on this small piece of ground

and make them work? And so from a routing standpoint, it's an extraordinary study.

of Pete and Iye was designing a course there. And the course was it was called oak Holl Public Health Course. And I had never heard of Pete Dye and I knew nothing about this golf course when somebody said, oh, they're building a golf course not so far away. And I remember when I was, you know, I had a weekend away there from the from the army, and I'd gone home and I went out to look at it.

And it's when Pete was doing things very much like Harbortale, shorter courses, finesse, yeah, railroad sleepers, the whole thing people think about. And it was just fascinating to me. This was a course in the era of Robert trendyal Sor. And when I saw this golf course, I thought, oh gosh, that's kind of that's very interesting. And I think more than anything Andy, that's when out there that day walking around.

The course wasn't open yet, but it wasn't too far away from opening, and I just remember thinking, I wonder how you do this? I love golf. I think I know a good course when I see one, But how does this happen? What's the process? And you know, having been away from school for over two years, it's that decision backing do I go to graduate school? And then I'm thinking, well, I'm single, I don't I don't need much money or anything I could. I might like to see how this is done. So I remember the guy

who was out there watering. It was a little Sunday afternoon. Guy was at their water and of course asked him who did it. He said, I some man named Die and again didn't mean anything to me at the time. This was in nineteen seventy one, and I said, do you know how to get in touch with you? He said, oh, I'm sure. His names and the superintendent's rolodecks. And here we walked. He drove me back to making the shop.

We walked in there and he takes the old fashioned rolodex where he turned around all the cards, flip cards with wooden names and dressing phone numbers, and sure enough he finds it. He finds Pete giving me his number. I began calling Pete, he said, badger him to see if I could get a job, just to see how this was deaf. So that was the moment.

ever down here, you know, call me. So I just I made my way down to Florida after I was discharged in the military, and I called them and he he interesting enough, it was another of all things on a Sunday afternoon, and and Pete was he was a huge Miami Dolphins man. And this is in the time when the Dolphins were dominant, you know, the year actually I think that they went undefeated. She done you, Larry Zarka, Bob, These guys there, you know, it's just Pete was such a huge fans.

know who. I didn't know what to look for. I didn't know I didn't know what he looked like or anything. I'm just asking people to be walking the door. You pe done. They don't want her? No, Well then he anyway, he walks in and he says, so you want to talk about Golfer? Because here I said yes. He said, all right, let's go to your room. What and so here we go to my room. He plops down in the bed and gets the TV face turns the football game. That's all he wanted to do was watch the football game.

So he sort of absentmindedly talked to me while he watched the football game. So that was and then he said, well, we're eventually we're going to be doing a golf course up near all in North Carolina. Turned out to be the Cardinal Club in Greatsboro. He said, you can come out there and maybe maybe we'll find something for you to do. It was another year or more after that

they actually started the Cardinal Whenever. He didn't remember me from anybody, I mean, you know, but he Hey, I was persistent.

He seen Ian Alice has seen the railroad ties when they played a lot in Scotland and thought, well that could work, we can do something of that. And it was just something that people in this country, unless they had traveled to Scotland or Ireland, they just weren't used to. So the fact that Harbor Town was so well received.

I think the first tournament there was in nineteen seventy and I recalled Arnold potter Wood and so the fact that was so well received instantly put him, you know, in the public eye as far as the golf course architect, and pretty soon everything you saw started going in that direction. Well then when the TPC Jacksonville came in, which is many years later, but he changed it again completely there. So I know, I know, no one else's who has

done that. It was actually changed. And once Pete did Harbortown and the finesse course type type situation, and then when he changed to the more challenging, longer whatever you want to how you want to describe it, TPC type course, the next thing he saw almost everyone was doing the same. It was just he he literally changes not just the direction. But if you watch the progression, you saw many courses

appear like like Pete's early course at Harbortown. But then after TPC you saw many many courses appear that suddenly looked like that.

They were still strate, they were certainly strategic for you know, the best players. They still wanted to play to certain positions, usually right next to some very visible hazard and uh T, you would always give you something to look at. There was always something in your eye as a player, and more often than I that you could play close to that you you had an advantage in some way. But you know, I think I think the analysis and the work that they've done through the years is this is

some absolutely fascinating, fascinating courses. And yet you do hear about was very penal. I think a lot of that depends on what teams you play from. I think a lot of it, you know, is a situation. There's more the impression that comes from the tp C course type, famous of their of their architecture. So I see it as a strategic and penal book.

I had Brian Silva on the podcast a few months ago and he said he had an architectural awakening when he was sitting in a I think he was in a doctor's waiting room looking at us worst illustrated and he saw the arial PGA West and all of a sudden, the light bulb went off about the angles and how fundamentally change ad designed courses and not any architects going.

people were necessarily used to seeing and yet they work. Yeah, it's very, very seldom uliarious, Pete die golf course, even a whole of the pee die golf course that doesn't function from a playing standpoint. And the other people who then said, oh, that's what's selling now, that's what I'm going to produce, never I don't oftentimes didn't have the same insight as to how you truly played golf within

the confines of the golf course. And so you would see some knockoff models, shall we say, of TPC courses that that probably were far too people because of them that there was just probably not that bit of insight as to how will this actually play? How was this actually look like exactly visually because they might have mounds and pot bunkers and or water down the side or

certain angles and things. You always not the same. But when it came down to the ability to move your golf ball through the golf course and be successful, a lot of times, you know, other people just didn't have the same insight that Pete did as how to make that work.

small site. But the greens contours Old Town had some of the most amazing greens and with regard to internal contours and the hunting syrup of the Maxwell rolls as

they were called. And at the time when I was playing in Old Town, I didn't I've never seen southern hills or prairie dunes or crystal downs or other courses that mister Maxwell had had designed, and so I just didn't know these greens are These greens are amazing and they're interesting, and they were so different than than other places should go because the con true were internal to the putting services. They weren't all in the edges, feeding

down in and then disappearing in the putting services. These you might start quietly on the edges and then something a Maxwell role will appear use which you used beautifully to separate levels. You know, in the Green, So that's not Perry Maxwell and uh and Donald Ross and then of courses in as you go see McKenzie courses, I guess we've all. You know, they're so inspirational in their vision and the creativity, you go, wow, look at that?

Whoever thought of that? And then you go see you know, see b McDonald or Seth Rainer things, and you go, I could ever think of that? Who have arethought? And uh so when you start putting it all comes into Lakers. But Ross was a very early layer, followed by Maxwell and then followed by you know others, but certainly including mckin So you.

that you just didn't find the inspiring. And you know, having said that, the Maxwell courses truly truly extraordinary, or they maybe is visually inspiring as McKenzie courses. Maybe not, but I've never seen a Maxwell course. It wasn't well routed. But more than that, it was the greens. It was the green country. But can you say Maxwell's greens were better than Ross's greens were better than Mackenzie's green No, They're just different. That's what made the whole era so interesting.

From a goth architecture perspective. We just had all these these different perspectives, different presentations that were being put forth, all of which were based upon trying to complement the natural landscapes. They had to work with, find interesting sites and then showcase those and bring the life of golf in the most natural fashions from those interesting sites. So I truly don't think I can say, oh, this one was better at this, that one was better at that.

It's pretty much toss up type material there really great.

interesting greens ever. And then you and then you know, you go to just different places and as soon as you think something's the best, oftentimes you walk off from another course. Wow, I thought that was maybe this is maybe this is just good. You know, it's fascinating to

walk around Opel. Then you look at it and you go, this may be the most amazing set of greens in the world, you know, in terms of conters in the greens, and that, to me, it is just the beauty of there's no one has an absolute lock oh the best.

fifty or so. Then I think in an any given day, you could go to any one of them and say, I think this is the best course in the world or the best course ever playing, and then go to the other forty nine and probably say the same thing.

If we can somehow create a golf course that looks like the site its one, it looks like he belongs there and has great individual character, we're extraordinary please with result. And I think those courses that you're describing that were, you know, done many decades ago. You might recognize them as coming out of a certain design philosophy sort of thing, but had no apparent connection in terms of visuals or you know, they weren't trying to just mass produce courses.

They each one was a compliment to the landscape it was put upon. And yes, you could go to you could go to one of those courses wherever it's this would be the best course I've ever seen only to do the exact same thing a week later in some far off place.

You know, we look at those and we're so grateful for those opportunities. And yet you mentioned talking talking Stick's probably the worst site, one of the worst sites we've ever had. It was so flat four hundred years for thirty six homes. And I absolutely are remember putting his Coca Cola can at one end of the four hundred acres, going to the other end of the four hundred acres and where the binoculars could see the Coca cola can

sitting on the right. That's how flat it was. And there was no there was one tree on the site. It was not good soil. And you know, I remember going up there with Daning Army and you know, founding Trim Golf and they were going to manage the construction and the operational side for the tribal community there there. So I remember dating to Seling, you build two different golf courses out here. He just kind of smiled, looked at me. He said, we had looked at some sites

before that I were too steep too. You know, we just did not work with He said, I don't think you can tell me this is too severe. That's true. And we laughed about it, so I still do. But the potential for that site Andy was minimum at best, as opposed to the potential for a site, whether it's like sand Hills in Nebraska or cab It you know, Nova Scotia or other sites that we've had to work

with well here in Sand Valley, but their potential. There's some sites that have the potential that if you don't create something that's truly or one of the special golf courses in you know, make the definition here, but at sometimes in the world, you know, people say the sand Hills, Oh, that must have been so much fun, And I can't truthfully say that was a lot of fun either. Out there on the site, the mnsbill and thirty miles an hour. Half the time, it's blowing away as fast as you

can build it. But in the back of your mind you know that if you don't build a the world's outstanding golf course, you failed. So the potential is so extreme and the margin for success so small. Talking stick on in the hand, the potential was so minimal and the opportunity for success, you go, we don't have to

do much to make this better. If we can build anything resembles interesting golf so to this day when I go and I live in Scottsdale, so when I go out there, I you know, the parking lots full, there are people playing golf, if repeat playing, this will be their twentieth year that've been open. And I sometimes just stuff and I just look around, you know. I think people journalists particularly like to ask all the time, what's the best course you've ever done? Well? How do you

measure success? How do you define best? Whatever? If best is defined by taking what its potential was and going beyond that to a certain at what point did you go beyond its potential to the point that people enjoyed playing it for twenty years and keep coming back again and again. Make talk e state. You could make an argument the talking state maybe the best thing we've ever done.

lee afternoon, I went. I went out a talking stick and they had a concert festival going on, so I got to play out there. There's nobody out there like late, and I was listening to music this play. I had such a good time out there. I mean, I always liked looking at an architects work on flash grounds, like I always think Sat Mariner did such a good job because a lot of sites that weren't he didn't have

a lot of great suitings. And Donald Ross's was another one that came to mind that really utilized what he had really well. And I mean, do you I mean, do you think you kind of said, do you think a great judge of looking at an architects.

I mean I remember talking stick in it. You have to when you go out there now or when you played. Of course they planted lots of trees and kriss of bushes grew up and all this se together. But we staked up to thirty six holes and you know they had the PVC poles stuck up for the greens, landing areas, you know, teas and that sort of thing. You can see every pole. You can stand on one spot, see every single pole for every point on all thirty six holes.

It looked like a pungee stick trap out there. I mean you just look like, you know, straws sticking up everywhere, and you just stood there. You didn't know where you went from one pole to the next to the decks. It was just like I remember talking to Ben and I said, Ben, if you've ever had any theoretical hopes on the flat ground you wanted to build, now's the time, because we got to come up with thirty six homes

from nothing, juste ro. There was not one contract on the contract, it was just white and so we just sat there and Dave Axcellent, who's worked with us for so many years and they said, well, what kind of what would you like to start with, you know, because it told us it was kind of where they would like the clubhouse to be from an intro ro because at one time they were considering building a hotel internal

between the two golf courses. And that's why there's that space right there, kind of the hole and doughnut right next to the clubhouse that both courses wrap around. And so it's okay, at least we have a starting point, you know, we'll go we'll go from here. And from that point it was purely theoretical. And people say, why would you guys ever do that, Well, we'd finished the sand Hills very soon before them, so we'd come and we were doing of course in Georgia called cosco will

at the time. You know, sand Hills extraordinary site where you just followed exactly what the ground was going to give you. Cousco Willa another interesting site, very different than sand Hills, has been very interesting where you followed, you followed the ground, and then we looked at talks. Well, there's nothing to guid us here.

going to mess this up. I'm going to stick with the South And but the South course more of a parkland tighten course with elevated greens and greenside bunkers and and then there were more trees and there was a bit of water and that sort of thing, so it was intended to have more of that field. The North course was meant to be the low profile rolled off greens, not severe like pinders, but still crowned off bunkers and lower profile and more open, windswept, you know, feeling and

in the mix. But between all that there is a major drainae area. It goes down through it. So we did create all these lows. You might not know so much if you're out there created all the lows. It would allowed water to enter for way at the north end of the property eventually work its way out the south. But we just did it differently than probably most of the courses have been done in the desert. Most of them do the mounding on the edges of the property

and then start to work in. We left the edges of the property just flat like the desert, and then start doing the contours. The more away from the edges you get, the more contrary there is. So it went. It went inward and downward and upwards and that sort of thing. So it's it's at least to us, it just felt a little more natural.

goes right down the boundary. Yeah, there's a big fairway to right, no fairway, bunkers, big fairway to the right, out of bounds all the way down to the left hand side, and the greens sitting right next to the out of bounds you know, five hundred and twenty yards or so down there from down the tea, and you stand on the tea, you look right down the out of bounds, you see the green, You see the flag. There's a bunker to the right of the green, but the key is the out of bounds in the green

sitting right next to it. And so you can play as far away from out of mounds as you want a sooner like you're going to deal with it. You can play the t shot way away from out of bounds. You can play the second shot way away from out of bounds. Now you're faced with a potential pitch right over that bunker to the skinny green with the out of bounds right behind it. And if you avoid the out of bounds with first two or three shots going together, so at some point you take on the out of bounds.

And then I remember we were doing this day fact, so we were all out there where no one's gonna understand this all, no one, And sure enough we got some. I don't know that they do this anymore, but back then, Golf Digest you get some comments back from the raiders, you know, when they were evaluating the Coke Best New Courses or something that had been nominated. So then I love it. I loved it because we we read through

some of the comments. You know, they were not named by who said them, but one of the comments from one of the golf I just readers, this is the worst golf a I've ever seen. And and then just got to take No one's gonna ever understand that. And yet Jeff Ogleby, you know who lives in Scottsdale and who's a very art student architectures, will have been such an extraordinary player, he thought. I heard him say, it's

just a fascinating home. Just you know, for that very reason, you have to deal that by at some point and the old what was that old commercial payment now or any later?

the court, it's not particularly that interesting. It's when you start to play the edges to gain advantage, and if the course has edges and gives you a reason to play close to them to gain an advantage, that's when it because really exciting. But talking stick and you mean we didn't We've always said and people are kidded us, but there's it's true. We look for whatever features we can to give inspiration to the holes, you know, features

that exist on the property. And talking stick one tree, there was one little ditch, I mean tiny little ditch that some poor person had tried to dig. It comes here many years ago to direct water in case it ever rained, but some does. But that ditch still exists. It's on the right hand side of I think it's number seven down one time it was maybe it's ten. On the north course. Yeah, there's a little ditch over there. They switched the numbers of the holes, but it goes

straight away. It's a hole goes straight away from the clubhouse, you know there, to the to the north and there's this tiny little ditch, just straight as it can be anyway. Thought, we just make a hole right down that ditch and if you can play close to it. It's on the right versus the outer bounds on the left on the second home. Years all that, so at times you get desperate, you just start looking for things. What can we what can we some inspiration for a whole? Yeah, it's that.

knew where one of those little marks was. I could go out to find it and stuff from individual holes. But it's but as soon as you started to say I really want this hole, most often that cut across some of the other potential holes, So you started eliminating things. Uh. The big the big thing with sand Hills is trying to truly believe going into it as you start construction that you pick the best one. And that's just pure judgment call. It's it's do we like the sequels the holes?

Do we like the directions.

Well understand that from a visual perspective, but els played on the ground, staying at sand hills and you you know, walking and playing golf, and we just felt like it should be a you know, a nice combination of that landscape.

Big dudes, small dudes, in between sizes, and so you just try to start to analyze all the different you find individual holes that you that you'd really like to build, but you try to then start figuring out what's the circulation pattern, how best to get around this property in this interesting fashion and showcase the most interesting elements and order the best individual holes to do that, And pretty soon you start picking a few and a lot of a lot of others start falling, by the way, But

it is It's one of our biggest concerns in that was that we finished the course and then look back and oh, we should have done that. We should have done that, you know, And I'm very candid to listen, I think if you talked to Band, certainly if you talk to me, I think we would both very quickly say now we're happy the once we picked. I think I could see that perspective. But I actually do believe we do feel it. I don't think we've been trying to talk ourselves into it. I remember playing golf out

there before the course open just bannoned me. We played and we were walking down over me and we got to the seventeenth hole, and you know, of course we both knew all the different discussions that have gone on, different ways to go. I remember looking at Band, would you change anything? And he said no, And that's just the two of us stand there. There's no one listening, there's no one. It's not like God, we probably should have taken that hole over there, that one instead of this.

There was none of that. We were very comfortable, and I think for for both of us that was real.

going to use that. What became them They blow out both their shorter left to create the same, then pile against the natural done to make the green. And it was gonna be one sort of inspired by the fifth green that Perry Junius in case. She happened to know that an actual deliberation or think piles standing out next on the off the side of the dene doing the drop off, you know, besides that, and Dick was talking to Bill, why don't you build the green down there

low to the run? And Dick been off to do that tome stuff. You know, he just said, I want you to do the least for the property. You can't. And that's why I think he was saying, why don't you build the green down here low to the right, because he going, why would you dig that? Saying other and pilot up there and build the green. You can just build it down here low right. And Ben and I talked about this quite a bit, and we ball just felt like it was more interesting sitting up there.

And so I went through all that with Dick and he and I, and at the end of that day, I sincerely believed that Dick was in greenment. We built the green up there high left. Dick sincerely believed we were in a greement. We were going to build it down there low right. And so we went our separate ways, and Dick went off for I don't know a few days. I can't remember. You usually there all the time, but he went off for a few days. Meanwhile, went up there and the very next day and started build the

green up top. Yeah, Dick came back. He was he was not happy all the time. Really. I don't think he spoke to me for like two weeks very after, and I was sending most all the summer up there, So he was not very happy with me. But the most of them, at least from me. Maybe the most amusing part is the first picture ever published the Sandhills Golf Club. Ron Whitting from God Digest was up there

as the course was just about grown in. Ron was taking some photographs and he wrote a piece about the Sandels and there's a double page, double page spread, one photograph of the fourth grade. And Dick saw that and he got yeah. He looked at me, he goes, you did this. I know you did this. I know you said fact. He was convinced, which I had nothing to do. I didn't even know they were gonna I knew Ron and Beneper was going to do a piece about it,

but nobody, yeah the picture. Nobody. But to this day Dick's convinced that I had that set up with Ron to run that picture double page picture of the fourth old of the thing is.

The combination of patience but concept and the ability to communicate with the local community, the ranching community there, and then just to convince anyone that's had any hope possibility. I mean, you put it in the context people look

back now probably that oh well, okay, yeah it happened. Well, you can only imagine trying to go out and convince someone it was dixed on a wealthy dad, and you go out and try to convince someone that that they should invest in the building of a golf course in sand Hills and Nebraska where the population based averages two people. Firstquaremont and uh, you know, I really to do this. And I remember a guy that had been on you

very well from back easton. He gone out there to look at it, and he summed it all up to me when he called. He goes, Bill, there are no people, there's no one there. You're gonna build a come to dagger. And so yeah, Dick his ability to pull off that, and the faith that people who invested with him had in Dick, it wasn't in us, and it wasn't in that concept because the concept was just like seemed pure folly. And here a Crump's folly in Tinne Valley, well it,

you know, books are written about that. But Dick's this idea of going out there and doing this, which perceived Ball almost everyone who saw it, his absolute folly.

those photographs of those dudes from that article. I had or first heard about the sand Hills, Nebraska from Doug Peterson, who was a longtime superintendent Perry Dunes. Later he ended up coming to be the superintendent the Austin Golf Club who did in Moscow. But I remember back in nineteen eighties walking with Doug down the eighth hole at Prairie Dunes, and I made some comments and can you imagine having a piece of property like this to build a course

on it? And Doug was originally from Nebraska, and he looked at me and in his very grappling voice, he says, Bill, I know whether there's land better than this? For god, I what where is it?

He knew about it. But the fact that when Dick called, I remember vividly being in the office with Ben and Scott say there's our business all these years, and Dick got on it. You know, we got on the conference com for Dick and he said, God, I'm calling to see if you have be interested in coming to to the sand Hills and Nebraska to look at the sitement. Well, I think he started off saying, look at the sitement Nebraska.

You know. Of course Dick can't see us. When we were sitting there, we were listening and Alston he says, in a part called the sand Hills of Nebraska, I'm sure you've never heard of it. I look at Ben. He looks at me, and he thought of that National geographic thing, and I thought of Doug Pierson, there go, we'll be there. We'll come and see.

completely lost our minds. They're trying to get those sandy blowouts to heel over, you know, so they don't just keep getting bigger and bigger, and here we are making some. But it was interesting to listen to one of the ratchers was out there one day. I was talking about something that said, I think we're gonna make this sandy blowout over here, and he goes, well, you can, and it would never occur naturally there. Well, okay, you face

the wrong direction and cattle don't go. And most of the blowouts occurred before some traffic pattern going through up a dune. They'd wear a spot and then prease in the wind and start blowing in the bulleting like a giant bunker that's there and left of eighteen and the sandals that's there because of the windmill. That's because the cows would go through and they'd always go to the windmill that'd come down from the top down the dues. They'd come from the bottom, they'd come across what's in

front of number one. And so when we got there, that was just a magnificent sandy expanse and the all caused by the cattle coming down to the windmill that pumped the water into the holding tank there.

have I followed animal trails. Absolutely. It's been my sense walking sites, particularly wooded hilly sites, that animals figure out the easiest way to traverse the property, and generals in search of water or going to front water, but they find the ways to get around the severe parts of

the property in the least taxing way. So if you're going to a site, you know, not anything to begin, but you find a nice deer trail, cattle trail, whatever, elk trail, whatever it may be, Generally it's going to find its way from high ground to low ground probably back to high ground in a way that's not horrible to walk. Plus, if you're in the bushes in the woods, you already got a bit of a trailer fall. Yeah, exatically.

So it's we always start out trying to determine the circulation pattern around the piece of property and find the most interesting parts elements of the property. And then if you were to go out there and just walk that property to see it, not even thinking about God, if you were to go out there and spend the day walking around that property and try to see the interesting parts, the vistas, the long term visas, but also maybe the rock out croppings or interesting trees or interesting stream or

what break whatever it might be. Once you knew those things are there, how would you go walk about through the day and do it where you could see those things and not feel like you're mountain climbing or you're not feeling like you're just doing it or it's just a physical challenge. How would you make an enjoyable walk through property? So we sort of look at routing like that,

how would you walk through this? How would you go through this property and touch upon the most interesting elements and do it in a way that's not physically oldly physically taxing. So that's that's kind of how we do that.

But yeah, the animal trails play into that. I made a mistake and I said that some years ago been the were doing an interview with the media thing for the PGA Senior Championship at Colorado Golf Club, and during that they had someone asked the question, but we hear you sometimes walk around on the animal trails, and so I basically say what I just said. Next thing I

know though I think it was Gary Koch. I'm not sure, but one of the commentators for the championship says, it's out on the air and it comes out across like, oh, these lay out the whole based on the animals. You know. Well, it's not quite right, but it is a good guy band Trails. Abandoned Trails was full of trails, both animal trails and hiking trails. So that's why it has that name trails. I used to walk out there for days and days and days and studying the property and making

up some maps and things. But some of that stuff, the gorse and stuff, you could physically walk through anyway. But it's there are a lot of holes abandoned trails that were laid out. It's kind of following trails.