I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
And when I find my.
Ball in a brid egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Frida egg egg, Frida egg, bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the course.
Welcome back to another edition of the Friday eg Golf Podcast. Today I'm we are going to discuss Augusta National in great detail. This was fun. It's been a while since I did a podcast with you know, guests just talking golf course that neither had any association with. So maybe we will do this more in the future because I thought it led to some really good discussion. I am joined today by Jeff Shackelford of the Quadrilateral. Jeff is a golf architect in his own right. He co designed
Rustic Canyon. He's spent the consultant on a number of projects, and he has written number of great books on golf architecture. He also has a sub stack. We talk about that at the top of his section. And also I am joined by Rob Collins of King Collins Dormer Design. Rob is a golf architect based out of Chattanooga, who's designed golf courses such as Sweeten's Cove and Landman. Jeff and I talk kind of about like routing and strategy of Augusta Nashal, and Rob and I dive into what kind
of makes the greens great. So this was super fun. As for fans of the Frida Egg, a reminder here we have a fresh assortment of merch options for next week. Next week's big tournament. So we We've got our Mackenzie Bunker, which I think is a cool little logo. It's on a number of hats. We have a collaboration with Swag that is a you know that has that Mackenzie bunker on some headcovers. You can go to proshop dot Thefridagg
dot com to check out that. One last bit of before we get to Jeff and Rob, let's take a moment to talk about our partner, Club Champion. They've been with us for a long time. Thank you to them for all their support. We're excited to partner again in twenty twenty five and with the first major of the year right around the corner, for anybody in the northern climate, it's start time to start thinking about how what your game in twenty twenty five and the best place to
go to get dialed in. This was always a tradition of mine in the winter or late spring, was to go, you know, see if I needed to get something new, and a great place to go do that is at a Club Champion studio near you. So they have studios all over the country. They have the most highly trained fitters in the world. They have an in house university that trains every fitter. They receive continued education for manufacturers to stay up to date, and they have over sixty
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the numbers and get you the best club. So you can get a free driver or iron fitting with a club purchase if you use the promo code fried Egg at Club Champion dot com slash fried Egg. All right, let's get to Jeff Shackleford here all right. I am joined by Jeff Shackleford, owner, CEO, COO, chief marketing officer, also intern at the Quadrilateral. A great substack newsletter. Everybody should subscribe, especially this is the time of the year.
This is like your Christmas time, because the major season is starting. You have, I believe, golf's only major championship focused newsletter. Uh and uh it's it's a great it's a great read. It's honestly, I get a lot of newsletters. I don't read a lot of them. Yours's appointment reading. I usually save it for a moment where my house is a little quiet. I sit down and I just die in and I enjoy. I enjoy the uh, the
irreverence of it. I there's always what I find two or three laugh out loud moments in in the UH in the text, so I enjoy it quite a bit. Jeff Shackelford, how are you doing, sir? Are you ready for for AUGUSTA National?
I'm doing great. I am very ready. I'm very excited.
Uh.
I would love the weather forecast to improve a little bit. That's my only real gripe going in. And I think it's gonna be a I think it's gonna be a really good one. So I've heard good things about the condition of the course given Helene and all that stuff. So, uh, just tweak the weather and we'll have a great uh anwa and then we'll have and I more importantly, I don't think there's any serious cold right now in the forecast, and I'm I'm happy about that. It's been a little
cold last few years. Andy, Well, well it's not very springtime when it's forty two degrees there.
I've been thinking about it. It has not been great the weather for like really since I started covering the event there. Yeah, it's been pretty bad. You know obviously, like all the way back to the Tiger one, we had a Sunday morning finish instead of a Sunday afternoon. You just think about what that did to ratings. That would have set all sorts of of highs for the for the Masters, if if Tiger was playing that afternoon
and winning. But yeah, the weather is is interesting. I it's Helene post Alene's gonna it's going to be a new look. I've heard from a few people it's shocking how many trees are down.
That well, that that's definitely number one. And then how the wind factors in now And that's what I just interviewed Ben crench Off for the newsletter and he just played there and he that's what he's he's curious to see. He said it's in great shape, maybe the best he's ever seen it. You know, they did have a chance to do another ryegrass touch up there after the after Helene.
And but that's what he's looking for, is is uh is kind of the impact of of of wind in different ways that players aren't used to.
I heard also, the T shots are a little like you know how they have those just branches that mightious hang. Yeah, some of them. Some of those branches are gone, so the T shots are a little less intimidating. But we're not gonna we're not talking about this. We are talking about the routing and the routing of Augusta National.
Uh.
And I would love to hear you know what you admire about the routing of Augusta National.
Yeah, it's not the easiest property. Obviously, they had very few limitations that we know of from their writings, Bobby
Jones and Alistair McKinzie. But it's a as you know, it's it's a it's it's a beautiful property, but it's not easy in terms of golf course design because it's got a high spot and a low spot and a actually you have to come back to the high spot, and that's not always the most enjoyable ground to create holes on, and it's probably why seventeen and eighteen or a little bit on the dull side, I guess compared to Amen Corner to a lot of people, and I
understand that. So I think that what they were able to do is fascinating, and I'm sure, yeah, I'm working on a deep dive on the third hole because it's just always been a little bit of a mystery to me. And there's a cool topo map out there and you can see they picked that green site, so They'm sure they had spots on the course where there were holes that were important to them, and around Amen Corner was
obviously one of those. But of course, as most people know, that was not the back nine originally, and thankfully it is now.
Yeah, I think there's one hundred and fifty feet of fall from like ten t to Amen Corner, which I think, like the vast majority of golf courses that are really great are in like the twenty to eighty feet of fall rise and fall across the property. And so you think about like how big that I mean almost double that of like what would be considered a great severe property.
You know what if you as someone who's written you know, multiple entry level books to golf architecture, how would you explain why a really hilly property makes routing difficult?
Well, the number one thing is that what I just mentioned getting back to the clubhouse means you're going to have some some dogs and you're going to have some holes that are not pleasing. I like uphill par threes. But yeah, as you know, people come there and they're always shocked how uphill the eighteenth is. Even the seventeenth I think surprises people. So that's number one. And then you know drainage wise and water movement and kind of
wonky stuff like that that's not very sexy. Ith it plays a big part and how you think, and I mean, the good news is it all drains down to Raise Creek. The bad news is it all trains down to Raise Creek. So you know they've done a lot of work underground to try to try to capture water and and more, I think for spectating and the patrons. You see, I'm getting into my lingo speak. I'm k measing into it.
I'm working on it, but for the patrons experience as much as it is for the golf, because, as we know, some of the stuff they do for drainage for the golf is not great. It's kind of weird. But and some of it might be, you know, scalloping out around greens in the name of scoring. I don't I don't know. I don't really get briefed on those things, so I don't know. But so I mean, those would be the
main things. And just to give you an idea of Rustic Canyon, from the thirteenth green to the entrance is one hundred and forty feet of elevation change, but basically over twice the distance as say from the tees Tee to the twelfth green. So I think that you know, that shows you that it happens in a quick amount of time, that that elevation change. But they made it work beautifully. And I think those uphill holes, yeah, they work as well as they can other than all the trees they've planted.
If you were going to like I think you made a great point there, So Rust Canyon one hundred and forty feet of elevation, but it's over a really wide swath and it's kind of a steady climb. You know, you're in like that individual you're in a valley a bit going up into foothills versus there, it's very abrupt. And I think what you were talking about with with
uphill versus you know, uphill holes being dogs. I think like everybody who plays golf, like if you played a succession of uphill hole, you'd be like, all right, Like whether you're attuned to architecture or not, you might at some point be like we're going uphill again, you know. Yeah, And I think like that's like with very severe properties, that's obviously an extreme challenge, is like how do you get back up the hill? Do you think there are
a couple holes? With this severe abruptly severe land that Augusta is on. You know, it's dramatic on one hand, which I think is like everybody that walks out there. One of the great things is like you walk out there and you're mesmerize it at how dramatic it is. But are there a couple holes in particular? In on the golf course that make everything work.
Well, Yeah, when you think about a whole like eight that that kind of gets you back up, but not entirely. And then you have number nine come back down. Not the most scenic thrilling part five, but it's got a great looking tea shot for the most part, although I think it looked better when the bunker was more of
a kind of a center line looking bunker. Yeah, but and then you know funky green that that isn't quite as crazy, I don't think as it was in Mackenzie's day, but you know, Clifford Roberts bulldozed it and and then they Byron Nelson and I think it was a Joe Finger I think who he worked with that that put it back and they did pretty well. But anyway, it's so it's kind of a funky ending and and liven
sings up. And so I'd say that's one. Obviously they used four and six as and Mackenzie wrote about this and George Thomas wrote about it. The par threes are handyways to get from one place to another and and clearly they loved that land up there on the fifth hole. I think, yeah, just with the fall off on the left.
They were pretty clear from the beginning that was going to be sort of a road hole, a flipped road hole strategy of you know, hug the side and you get the better angle of the green, and the more you bail out, the worse the angle. And unfortunately when they redid it last time, they gave you, well, very few people the ability to clear the bunkers and and then there's no reward on the other side of them. So I don't really know how they missed that one
because it. Jones was pretty pretty explicit in what they consider his Bible. Golf is my game. He's you know, he's just was such an incredible writer, as was Mackenzie bub Jones really got a lot in in a paragraph and he summed that hole up. So anyway, so yeah, I think that was a that was a part of the property that was a little separated, but they always they always wanted to use that and and I think the original hole was pretty cool and the green's pretty great.
Yeah. What when you say par threes are easy to get you from one in place like great great ways to get you from one place to another, what does that mean? Well, usually do you when you, especially when you look at four and six for example.
Well especially six, because it's so steep downhill and and you can't you couldn't have kept going straight because then you run into the third hole. So it was just an awkward piece of the property or not awkward, but it just a severe part of it that got allowed them to get it back down there. And then the
beautiful land on number seven. You can't see it. It's covered in trees, but uh and that but it's it was a beautiful it is a beautiful lay of the land hole and the original green was a little bit down the hill, not much but uh so, yeah, that was one and then four. Same thing to kind of get you to number five was, you know, I was a pretty jungly area in the nursery, although they're really
I saw an areel the other day. I was shocked town how many trees they planted in the original nursery was was more open than I I had never seen this area pre golf course, and it surprised me. But anyway, that area had kind of has a little a little creak and gully that that's mostly been piped under now on four and uh left of five, there's actually hazard left to five for part of the hole. Nobody really ever counts it in play because it kind of ends
about two hundred yards off the tee. So that area was I think pretty rough, and those two part threes allowed them to to to deal with that that portion.
Yeah, I I you know, I never think about those necessarily as like keys to the routing, but it is like getting to that high ridge on the on on five, which, like you know, otherwise it would be we just played down five almost gives it diversity of having another ridge hole with that that left side and it and it creates like we're just not playing down and up right, there's another up part of it famously.
Well just quickly that is another great part of the routing, is that is it You never you don't feel like you're playing down hill and uphill. They zigzag, it moves around and yeah, so but that hole, you're correct, that was probably a great element to that hole that added to its its attractiveness to.
Them when you so obviously I think most people know this and most people that listen to this podcast know this, but originally the golf course, the nines were flipped. So what we now know is the front nine was the back nine. What we now know is the back nine was the front nine. Have you ever put a lot of thought into which cadence you prefer, because obviously routing, one of the big aspects of routing is how a golfer goes around to property. There were shape and frost
concerns with the original front nine. If you were to take out, you know, any shade and frost concerns, which which manner in which going through the golf course would you prefer?
Oh, oh, the current for sure. I mean there's there's you know, I view of routing as sort of an equivalent of a story, and it story has acts and arcs and ups and downs, and I think that's where they've made some changes, not really regarding that enough, and and it became sort of established law in a way, the way the course flowed basically in the seventies, eighties and nineties, where you you, yeah, you had a really
tough opener. It's always been a hardhole. It's kind of an awkward t shop, but then two, three you had a chance. Four and five were always pretty tough, but then six through nine was sort of a real little a great little stretch where somebody's hot, they're making birdies and if they're not, they're making bogies in it. Those
kind of interesting in between holes. And I think they've just gone in a direction where now it's basically hold on, uh you still have two and three and and but then really until you get to eight, that stretch in between four through uh seven is is you can't have to play pretty conservatively, So it really kind of changes that. The Yeah, it's like the A. I also like to think of it like an album, you know, when a
producer and I realize I'm dating myself. Nobody listens to albums anymore, but the records.
Records are records, and with the hipsters.
Believe me, I got I do too. I love it. And uh, you look at the way they place the songs, and you know, you don't put a bunch of ballads at the beginning, or you don't put you know, you try to start out with something and you slip in some of those kind of B sides for almost B side songs somewhere, and you you know, you have some
ups and downs. And so I can't even fathom why they had the original version, just because anybody with any kind of theatrical, dramatic sensibility would want those holes around Race Creek and the tributary of Race Creek to be something you're building towards later in the round. And you know, they they they had their reasons, and I'm so confused at this point as to who drove what on that
that it just doesn't it really doesn't matter. But I think what does matter is that when you think about all the incredible masters of the seventies through the nineties, that we've lost something. You know, there was a flow to those rounds and a cadence and both from players and patrons who kind of knew what was what was happening,
what was what was potential potentially happening. And it feels like the Hoodie Fazzio area changes have taken some of that out of play and they just haven't quite gotten that that's same cadence back.
Yeah, I you know, it's a I think like one of the things that's done really well if you look at it from like a very macro view, is that no golf course has withstood technology as well. And obviously that's with the ability to just build new te's like still having like still being a course that had puts
mid irons in players hands on occasion. They've done that, but they have in that pursuit they have lost a little bit of the essence of the of the flow of the round and some of the world at a micro level, like if you you said at you know, ten thousand feet or forty thousand feet, this is generally they've done a nice job of keeping the course courses relevance, Like it hasn't turned into John Deere, you know, in
terms of like driver just driver Wedgefest. But when you when you zoom in on micro and you look at what's happened to the individual holes, it's like, yeah, we were missing some of the essence of this hole and what it was, you know, as Bobby Jones and Alistair Merckenzie laid it out to be what what dynamic that hole was supposed to present and how it fits within the overarching character of the golf course. And I think
that's like an interesting aspect of it. Is like you know, if you compare it to Sawgrass, right, Sawgrass added a few new T's this year, but it's become Sawgrass has become just like a wedge fest. I mean, like guys are hitting it over that bunkerround fifty team on the right, and they leave themselves with like a gap wedge into this or sand wedge into this what used to be
a driver six iron into into this tiny green. You know, like you look at the way they've been able to preserve some of that that you know, they call it shot value. But what they have missed a little bit is on the on the strategy and execution of the idea of what they want to do, as as you
reference with like the road hole for an example. And I think that, like when I think about the old routing, I one of the things I think that has happened that people gloss over is like if you if if six six is this par three which has like a very like you either hit the shot or you don't, you know, And if you hit the shot, it's a birdie. It's a great birdie opportunity. If you don't, it is like going to be very hard to make. Par seven
used to be obvious. Now it's a four hundred and sixty very narrow par four where you have to hit like a perfect drive. I mean, you got like a five yard area you can land the ball that keep it on that fair away to a raise green that used to be a driver pitch hole, you know, drive and pitch or drive you know in the original version when the green was low a driveable hole either right, and then you go eight par five and nine a very like taxing second shot into nine, like very challenging
second shot. I think that finish, I think that four hole finish would have been more is way more exciting than the current four hole finish.
Correct. Correct.
But so it's interesting because you're changing the diet, you would completely flip the dynamic of like right now with the finish, especially with seventeen eighteen, it's like, okay par par and the old routing on seven, particularly seven eight nine, you're thinking, I got to put my foot on the gas here and my lead, my two shot lead might not be safe unless I hit great shots.
Yeah, that's correct. It's just that I think the cadence of having amen corner where it is, the way things when you make the turn, just kind of the build up. I think it's okay that you have that where you
have it, and then the last two holes. Yeah, I guess where I'd also disagree is they've made eighteen seventeen and eighteen such just hould on for dear life holes And if you watch those those great masters in the seventies, eighties and nineties, they were they were not easy holes, but it felt like if somebody made a miske it felt like it was easy to make a mistake. But it was also easy to make birdie if you play
the right shots on those holes. And now they're very defensive holes, extremely defensive and both and so they're really quite boring in a way. I'll be curious how that eighteenth t shot looks how the trees. That was one of the ones where I would you know, people always really out of Jordan hit that t shot off the tree on eight Well, those trees really hang over. It doesn't doesn't take much from that back tea to bring
those in play. And you know, we've seen how some really awful tea shots there in recent years because it's just it's a hard t shot from back there and awkward.
It's awkward. So I guess, yeah, I some of the defensiveness is just uh, I mean, ultimately that's what I don't you don't like to see there because, as Creunchhaw has said many times, quoting Jackie Burke it was the most tempting course in the world, and and there's just there's there's not as much temptation out there because of some of the changes they've made, not because of the technology. And that's where you'd love to just ask a few
questions and try to understand now and that's it. They've also done some things like on number two, to to kind of tempt you to try to turn that corner even more and and but also bring more trouble into play with getting the rough right up to the pine needles and things like that. So there have been a few good ones like that, and the eleventh is better but still not still not idyllic, but you feel like eleven.
I guess one of the things too, And when you think about it is it was always more of a second shot course than that than people I think appreciated, and less about driving accuracy, and they've made a little bit more about hitting it straighter, and I think it's just a way more interesting course if you if it's wider, the ball's running, and it is about the second shots and letting everybody kind of wap it out there and get wherever they get. And then and then see what
happens who who controls their irons the best. I think that's an underrated part of how it used to play.
I think Augusta National operates the best as I think it's one of the things that it's got, like it's kind of pushing and pulling against this idea of like being a golf course that's got a lot of shades of gray depending on where your ball goes, and there's lighter shades of gray and darker shades of gray, you know, meaning like you know you're you might not know, it might not be very obvious if you're in a really
good or a really bad spot to casual eye. And I think the push and pull there is around is that should this be? You know, I think like the general ethos if you asked a great player, what should tournament golf do? And I think this is like a something that's like held by great golfers is they think that every shot should be penalized more offline it goes, and that becomes a very black and white setup where it's like I hit it straight and I'm good, or
I hit it offline and I'm bad. And that's just the general ethos of like how and they think if I hit it ten yards offline or thirty yards offline. If I hit a thirty yards offline, I should be even worse spot than if I hit it ten yards offline. And I think that's where in the last thirty years, Augusta Nashals really really struggled to crystallize on what our identity is. You know, are we this type of golf course?
And like the seventh hole is a perfect example of this where it's like we have lengthened it way back. We've made an awful walk back to that tee, but also we've just narrowed it down to like if I hit the fairway, it's good. If I do not, I am in a very bad spot. Versus you know, if you you look at like what people love about let's say the thirteenth hole, in which they've also you know, made a little more black and white, is like this like variety of If I get it up the left,
it's really a good spot. It's flat, lie best angle in and every yard off that creek line that I go it gets a little bit tougher.
Yeah. Well, and to your point, I think that if the fairways were cut normally and the ball ran, you would have the precision that they want off the tee unless it's really muddy, which it's not gonna be muddy ever there, but it could be soft. But if you if you had the ball when it hits the ground and because the ground is so severe there, I mean
seven is a great example. That's actually a hole where the way they cut the fairway toward the tee helps you because it's so narrow and it's got a it's got a little tilt to it and a lot a lot of tilt.
Yeah, And that's the most surprising one hitting a golf ball on is like I hit a really good drive there that had a little bit of fade that.
Landed in the middle of the fair at around are we going to go?
No, I ended up in the rough, but I just thought about I was like, wow, like you really want to hit a draw into that fairway otherwise it is tiny.
Tiny, It's it's literally five to eight yards of a spot if you hit a little bit of a cut otherwise, and the fairway counters not helping. But the point is even so even if you you hit that fairway, you've got a little bit of a side hill, sometimes downhill, lie uphill to a tiny green And I guess that's where I'd ask him, is don't you have a little more faith in your green complexes and the art the
strategy that the original guys thought up to defend the course? Uh, it feels like you're not having enough faith in that part of the facility, for lack of a better word, to defend what you know, to uphold kind of the traditions of the tournament. And you could kind of go through every hole and find that stripping away of the strategy is sort of dumped it down in spots and it's made it It almost doesn't really make it harder when you make it so easy, and when, as you say, take away the gray.
Yeah, I think like Augusta National in its best form plays against the best player in the world's egos. It dares them to hit shots that they don't want to necessarily hit right, and usually that's from perfect lies quote unquote perfect lies in the fair away where like, and I think you see this whenever you watch Old Masters is like, guys, you know we just did a flashback
on Chip Beck on shotgun start. Yeah, And in the ninety three Masters he's got two thirty six to the front edge, his ball's on a little bit of a down slope, and he's standing there three shots behind Bernard Longer and he lays up yep. But it put him in this paradoxical position where he probably knew and deep down he had to go for it, but he just didn't want to do it. Like I love when golf at the highest level puts players in a situation where they don't want they don't want to do either of
the options. And I think like a great example would be like the six hole at LACC would be like the six hole that's short part four at LACC, players don't want to go for it because of what's in front, but they also don't want to hit like a six n iron off the tee on a three hundred yard hole.
Like to me, that's that That's kind of like the most interesting push and pull that you can give PGA tour players, the best players in the world, is multiple options, none of which are necessarily appetizing to them.
Right Well, I'm working on this deep dive on the third hole, and it's the perfect example of what you described, because Bob Cupp added this trio of bunkers in the fairway short of the one fairway bunker that Mackenzie had. And I talked to Weiscoff years ago and it just drove him nuts. He said, I used to love to lay up there, And then I asked Crenshawn. He goes, nahuh not really. I wasn't really, I don't know about
that play. And then I went and found some photos and there's a bunch of guys who used to lay up right in front of that bunker because they wanted a full shot into that green. There are other people who love to just get over that, just pass that bunker and have a shorter shot in, and now we're seeing everybody just throw it up at the green. It kind of like a video game that like rolls up the hill, comes down, and we've seen Scotty if he bails out, he bails out left because you'd rather hit
it in the link to the green. So it's just kind of lost like putting those bunkers in. And then they also moved that fairway in before the tournament for some reason.
You'll be shocked to know they didn't have any I asked, and the politely declined, I may be for spectating purposes, it may be a gronomy thing, but anyway, the fairway is cut really wide most of the year and you just go like, okay, so come tournament time, it's just it's becoming a one dimensional hole.
And it should be sort of like six at LA. It should have a bunch of different philosophies on how to play it. And that alone right there as we know, and the kind of herd mentality of good good golfers and everybody just kind of doing what everybody else is doing. That's both fascinating to play, it's fascinating to watch, and it probably adds, you know, a little bit to the scoring average. It actually takes, you know, when there's certainty, there's just no hole that you can design that is
immune from from these guys just just slaughtering it. But if you put a little doubt in their mind, it makes it. It makes a trickier and more interesting for everybody.
Those bunkers in the layup area of three are are very if you think about if you think about, like what you have to do to make a PGA Tour player lay up in this day and age, is you have to make it so like so obvious that we're just giving you something. And I think that removal of say two of those bunkers would maybe prompt some players to lay up. Like one of my favorite things about the Masters is you see the old guard still hitting
irons off that tee. It's like the you know, like the forty five and up crew still hit irons on that tee and and lay up and take that wedge because it is like I think, like, what's amazing about that hole in the grand scheme of things, is it offers the only time that you are able to hit a second shot from a flat lie right to a
level target on the third hole. That's the only opportunity that you get to hit a wedge from a flat lie to a level target on a second shot at Augusta Nashville is a third hole, and that's what it's offering. But the layup has gotten is tough. It is not an easy layup.
Well we'll see too, you know, they that part of the hole, the right side, took a huge hit in Helene from the photos I've seen from above, so we'll see if that changes the dynamic. But you're correct, and by the way, the other reason to lay up short of those bunkers is for the pin on the right, the back right. You know, the green used to have an even more pronounced sort of almost I'm not gonna
say starfish, but it had little more pronounced wings. And there's also a beauty in that that you have different layups or different strategies for different hole locations. I mean, this is really not complicated stuff, but they seem to have consultants who don't understand these things, or they feel like it's their job to take some of those things away because options and freedom lead to to birdies or
too much good play. It's just it's a classic argument, and I mean it's been going on since the twenties of penal design versus strategic and unfortunately they had, you know, a really strategic course that is still there's still a lot of strategy because of the speed of the greens, all the different angles and different things that still go on. The history everything, well most people know the history, like Ludwig probably didn't understand, probably didn't know Ben Hogan's quote
about the eleventh al last year. But but there's that there's that sort of backstory wisdom that you that also plays into your your thinking there and so the more they chip away at that is just kind of frustrating and because we know it's it just makes it a little less interesting and a little less uh fun to watch.
Yeah, I think that's that's uh an interesting aspect of of the you know, if you took the routing and strategy and if you took routing and laid it all the way into like the tree plantings, right, because that is would you say that'd be part of it, Like if you're building a golf course tomorrow, part of the routing processes tree clearing. Sure, so tree planting is it has impacts on the routing and we're having a routing
discussion and strategy discussion. Really but if you think about it, it's like it's it's still one of the most, if not the most strategic golf course that we see these
guys play every year. Yeah, but it is it is so far it has it has lost a lot of the strategic elements that it used to have, which is which is fascinating is you know, I think you could make a case that it was for up until you know, ninety nine, the most strategic every like like by far, one of the you know, along with the old course the most strategic golf course in the world.
Yeah, no question, And obviously it was inspired quite a bit by the old course, And yeah, I think you know the thing, it turned back to the rowdy. I think it'd be interesting to give each hole, I don't know, a grade or a number on where you in terms of their sort of strategy variability, some sort of index that kind of places that the holes at least in that stretch from the seventies to the nineties, and what they meant to the overall round in terms of excitement difficulty.
Kind of like the way a writer doing a story would put out a storyboard and you'd have, you know, and you look up and you go, way a second, I've got all these depressing scenes, one on top of the other. Well, I want to mix these up and maybe have a comic relief moment here. Yeah, it's like a same thing with a symphony. You know, you don't want you want to have some some changes in mood and you build up to a big moment and and
so you'd love to see them. Think about that a little bit more from the player's perspective, because I think that really plays so much into somebody feeling like they can get on a roll out there, and then also when they're hot, knowing when okay, this is not the hole for me to get greedy on. I am playing great today. I'll miss the eleventh green to the right because I got thirteen to fifteen coming up. That kind
of stuff. And if we could just just get a little more of that thinking back into the way that plays, I think it'd be it'd be a lot more exciting.
What would you say is the whole today that most non part three that most embraces the whole that you know, the holes in their forms in the like the seventies, eighties and nineties, really the you know the years that made the masters the masters.
Uh well, I was going to say number two, but it's now it's now the easiest toll on the.
Course statistically, bunker on the right.
Yeah. No, I'm not a fan of that, but I do love that it. You know, there is a there is a drive to kind of want to get it down the middle or down the left side and get the roll and have the shorter shot in. And I love that green. It's probably the one green that Robert Trent Jones in his life made better with the way it's bunkered and everything, and the layups kind of fun. I think it's really interesting when guys have to lay up. Actually,
it's more fun to watch those shots. Although the shot into the green is pretty great too, but it is playing a lot easier. And as you say, that bunker on the right again, Samet, you know that bunker.
Is the same thing we're we've talked about. It's the same discussion.
If you if you have the fairways cut tight and rolling and you didn't have that bunker the right side would scare the daylights out of guys because the ball could just start running down into you know, the junk over there on the right. And that's not pretty over there. Now again they've lost some trees over there, but yeah it doesn't. And of course it's gotten so deep too, and it's just on the outside of a dog leg,
which isn't really McKenzie's style and all that. But I don't think we're going to get that one taken out.
I would say, you know, for any patron sitting behind two greens one of the best places you can see, Yeah it is, and just I love going there. I'll go there on Saturday of the Masters, and I will just sit there for two hours just because it's just one of the best places to just watch golf shot golf shots well, because there's so much going on on that second and third shot, and.
The pin is so different day to day, so if you go there more than once, you see some different stuff with different pins. You know, when it's back left from the from the fairway perspective, smart old guys lay up way to the right. They get it down there and then they hit into the length of the green and stuff like that. You know. I love the quadrant of two fair way uh three green, that little that little area, just because you can kind of pop back and forth, watch them t off four, watch them play
into three. You can still watch two from a distance, and it's that's my I think that's actually my favorite spot other than you know, the top the grand stand on on Amen Corner at twelve's pretty cool, but you still see some good stuff there. But yeah, in terms of your question on other holes.
I'm maybe ten would be outside of all the all the planting on the right that's made it so so tough on the right, there's no recovery really if you miss it right, But the t shot and second shot feels very what it was.
Yeah, yeah, I give you that one. That's I think that is a good one. That green is just so I asked Crenshaw that last year. Why is that green so difficult to putt? It just is the shadows. I thought that was really interesting what Rory said about sixteen and the and the and the tree loss there fewer shadows. I think that that gets underrated on sunny days. How much shadows make reading greens. They're tricky. So again another little theory.
That's your theory. Overcast? Uh yeah, with no best scoring conditions.
I'll keep begging. It's one of these days. Shot links gonna they're gonna enter that weather data. I know Lemania would agree with me.
I would.
I just am dying to see what that what that data would look like if ken Venturre's it was ken Venturre's philosophy. You know that a that have soft, overcast days without shadows are just better for scoring for golfers. You just see the architectural features better. Uh, you have fewer distractions on putting when you're trying to read a pott. It's probably not as wain not necessarily, but there's a
good chance. So anyway, it's but they don't they don't enter the weather on that on the I think they just do it for the day or something, but it doesn't allow you to quantify what might be happening under sunny versus overcast, or windy versus still, et cetera.
All right, well you mentioned the crunch shaw q and a what else does the quadrilateral have coming ahead of the masters?
This deep dive on the third hole? I just you know, I'd always have been I've always thought it was kind of a mystery why And it's me Mackenzie. I still haven't found where he is quoted supposedly as saying it was nearly a perfect hole. I'm the more I read, I'm more I'm convinced. He said that to keep Cliff for Roberts from screwing with it, and and Rod Whitten had a thing years later that Cliff wanted to put a lake. I'm looking at it right here down to
the left on three. Anyway, he was not good when it came to architecture. So but I've always found it kind of a weird hole. So I talked to some players, and of course it has changed. The mentality from the tee it's it's bombed up there and that could change again. By the way, that just seems to be what guys
have decided to do. So I'm looking at that, and uh, I've got I've had a few things the last few days and uh, a little landwalk coverage and you know, we'll see who gets in in Houston and all that good stuff. But I'm excited to finish off this thing on the third because I was shocked to find that's
most definitely changed a lot. I knew it had changed some, but I didn't realize going deep into some of the stuff how much that hole has changed when it's touted as the least changed hole on the course.
All right, well, thank you for for giving us some time talking the routing, and we will we'll see you in a week. Yeah, looking forward to see to seeing you. Yeah, having some breakfasts in the media center, a little.
Breakfast, a few ice cream sandwiches hopefully, and yeah, it should be a good week.
So let's hope we's going to be there.
Yeah, I hope. So no no blueberry or you know, let's hope. Let's hope they made plenty and because it is, it is a delicacy. And yeah, and let's hope for some good weather. I think it'd be fun to it'd be nice to see the guys be able to play, not in a gale force win or in forty eight degree weather. And plus, with this field the size it is, we we need good weather to get them around and
finish our time because they are. They're pushing five forty on on the late weekdays if there's any wind at all, and with ninety I think it's gonna end up being ninety six players. I mean, I haven't looked at the Houston scores, but.
Well, the Toasty Toasty's lurking. He's a he's a demon on at Memorial Park.
So yeah, so that would be great to add him to the field as well. Wouldn't that be nice.
To be incredible? Yeah, so truly incredible if he's in there. All right, right, Well, we'll talk to you next week. Everybody check out the Quadrilateral subscribe if you don't. If you don't yet, it's a great golf reading there. Thanks Andy, all right, big thanks to Jeff for coming on. And before we get to Rob Collins and the greens at Augusta National. Let's talk about our partner Echo. Echo has a new shoe. It's the biome H five. I can't
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dot Echo, Ecco dot com slash golf. All right, I am joined here by golf off architects extraordinary Rob Collins, who I would say has been known to build a few wild greens of his own, a few thought provoking, provocative, maybe polarizing greens in his day, And we're going to talk about some of the some of the craziest greens
in the world Augusta National. I think when you first see these greens, they provoke a lot of thoughts, They make you feel things, and I think you know, at his core you want golf architecture to make you feel certain ways. And I think that's one of the things that that Augustin National. While I think we get a lot of muted commentary from players, I think deep down it does make them feel a lot of a wide
range of emotions when they play. So, Rob, if you could take us back to the first time you saw Augustin National as greens, what what were your big takeaways?
I Uh, I was lucky to dad my dad had a knack for getting practice round tickets. It was a kind of a miracle. He would land these tickets and I don't. My brother and I never got them, and he would get them. And so I got to go with my dad quite a bit, and we actually landed real tickets for the very first time. I went was in ninety six for the second round, and remember it so well, and followed this guy named Tiger Woods around
a lot and was blown away by his talent. But speaking about the green specifically, I remember just being in awe of number six green. I had never seen anything like that, really, I mean, I'd been to the Old Course at that point, but that was the closest thing I'd ever seen to a contour like that, certainly the only thing I'd ever seen in America like that. I mean that that hole just blew my mind.
And then which contour. Let's let's talk a little more about six screen. What what specifically about the contour?
It was the big contour that comes off the if you're facing the green the high right side, as it transitions down to the left, there's just a really big sharp transition, and I remember thinking, Man, if you got on the wrong side of that, you'd be in big trouble. And then not only that, if you don't if you're putting from down below back up, and we've seen this before.
Guys hit it and they just don't quite get there, and they get to try that same putt again, which must be one of the loneliest and most awful feelings in the world when you know you're going to hit it a third time. If you don't hit it hard enough for a fourth time, I mean, it's just going to keep happening.
So that that green. You know Bob Crosby, who I know, you know well, he came on this pod last fall and he described this this period of augustin National as Mackenzie on Ass.
You know, I love that. That was one of my favorite podcasts ever. I'm a big fan of his and thoroughly enjoyed everything he said, hung on every word and he's right. I mean, Mackenzie was really doing some radical stuff at that time. I mean, look at some of the mounds around the Jockey Club. And in anticipation of this little discussion here, I went back to an old book I have by Stan Birdie about that runs through the changes. Have you ever seen that book.
Yes, Yes, really cool book.
And it's fun to look at those old pictures and just think of the sheer boldness of some of the stuff he was doing.
Well, yeah, he did so few bunkers around the golf course. And I think like one of the things that sticks out to me about the golf course every time I go around is, you know, it's a it's a really heaving sight. And I talked with Jeff shackle Ford to the beginning of this podcast about that. But where where there needed to be interest, it's so like eccentric the features.
It's it's mounds. Like if you think about like a perfect example of this is between eight and one, right, that's really flat right there, there's nothing really going on, and he built this like series of mounds that carries the They're almost connected. When you look at him from far away, you can see how the features just kind of pour into the other, into the into the other
green there and the greens are obviously very close. But like you think about one, it's like right out of the gate with one and obviously ten was the first hole originally, but right out of the gate with one that is just an insane green to start the day.
It is an unbelievable grain. And one thing I wanted to say on this podcast is that one green is one of my favorites on the entire golf course, and I think that it's very much overlooked. Its shadowed by five and fourteen because I think they're later in the round. But where number one grain occurs in the round? Obviously, the first hole, you know, is a spectator. You're you're thinking about what's coming next, you know, what are the guys doing on the course, and they're kind of just
getting through one. But that first green is not something to be slept on. It is a work of art and it's amazing.
It never will get us too because it's the first hole.
That's That's what I'm trying to say exactly, is like if it was the sixteenth hole or something, people would be going crazy and.
You think from there, how the how the greens work? But it's you know, you go from there and immediately the second green is so wildly different. And I think that's something for me that really stands out is the immense variety. They aren't like I think I was thinking about. I did an exercise where I thought about my five favorite green sets of greens in America, and like one of them that's up at new the top is Chicago Golf.
In Chicago Golf, I think like a lot of it has to do with the site, but like most of their greens are up right, you know, they're kind of up in the air. Augusta has every type of green you could imagine. Some on the ground. One is a great example of a green that's up two the next green just sits so beautifully on the ground.
It does. And the other thing that's interesting about Augusta is when you go there for the first time, and if you watch the course on television, it is easy to kind of come away with the impression that all the greens have these big transitions in them, because you know, that was my memory the first time out seeing number six, seeing number five, number fourteen, number one, like number two, for instance, I mean a lot of it's just kind of a tilted plane, you know, and if you get
in the wrong spot, it kills you. Same with number three. So there's a lot of greens that don't have you know, massive internal contour, but tilt in such a way with the land that it's it can really hurt you. If you get in the wrong spot. You number nine, I mean it's got a little it's got a step in the middle, but it's not like number six, for instance.
I think you make like an awesome point there. I think your early times around the golf course, you like it's impossible not to fixate on the greens that are so bold in their contouring, like the front on fourteen and five, Like you just go up to those greens.
And oh, they're just just like my god. Yeah.
But if for me, who you know, I'm lucky. I get to spend all week there every year, you know, and I just walk around and watch golf and stare at the greens and stare at the golf course. But to me, like you start to appreciate small features more and more. Like a green that I've really come to like over time is the seventh green, and how how it's just like so different than the other greens. And this is this is not a Mackenzie green, This is a Perry Maxwell green.
Maxwell Green, he built some amazing greens in his career.
Right, It's like kind of like sometimes I go down like a thought experiment of like what if every green was Maxwell, how different would the golf course be the routing would definitely be different, right, like because Maxwell you can already see with his changes he loved going up, playing up to ridges, and you see like his two biggest changes seven Green going from down low to up and then ten going up, and those are I think, like Ten's one of the great second shots on the
golf course where it really gets you. Your mind is just going crazy because of the topography, the wind, the elevation, and then you're hitting into the screen that's got like you know, it's just a hard green to hit into. But seven Green like the way it had as that kind of little bisecting spine, and it's got like all these little tiny pockets on it, and it's so shallow. The orientation of it is completely different than the first
six holes that you play. It's small, it requires a very precise shot, and then it's got just neat little internal contouring that you can particularly pick up on on on in early mornings or late at nights out there.
And it's a fun one to watch approach shots on.
I mean, in twenty nineteen, I was fortunate to be there with my good friend John Allen and we watched Tiger birdie that hole and you know he gets kind of hit that right place and it came back and so you know, I mean, that's what's one thing I love so much about Augusta National is that you know the drama is played out at the same place every year over and over and over, and you kind of know generally where the pins are going to be, and like, if the guy hits this kind of shot, it's going
to go there. And so that's A seven totally exemplifies that those little pocketed pins.
I think something that some of your golf courses can do is you can set up with greens to make things extraordinarily difficult, hard to get to, but also in
places that have a lot of potential gathering points. And I think that's something with Augusta like where if you did set up there and you went around with with with whole locations, you could make it where guys where we'd see low scores like all over the place because of just whole occasions, or you can make it like you would you know, they always have a great balance of this, or you can make it where it's like almost impossible to get close to anything. You know, what
is it? How do you go about that when you're building greens and what what do Augustas do so well that they create that.
Well, I think you definitely want to do that. I mean that that's probably the number one arsenal or number thing in your in your in your arsenal or in your in your playbook as an architect to try to achieve that, you know, tired old maxim of you know, playable for everyone, but challenges the best players. And but that's what Augusta does so well. I mean that it's it's an amazing members course and then comes on and
hosts the biggest tournament of the year too. And you know, they do have pins out there that are easy, but there's some that will just absolutely kill you if you get in the wrong spot. I mean, I think about number number fourteen. If you miss that left hand pin a little to the right, you're going to have you
might be off the green. There's so much slope in that part of the land, and so those greens really utilize the natural slope of the land which way it's tilting, and if you get on the wrong side of that, I mean, it's just gonna it's gonna it's gonna kill you, or maybe it'll give you an opportunity to hit a heroic shot too by playing to a certain contour. In twenty nineteen, I was up there by number nine and saw Tiger hit the best shot I've ever seen anyone hit, you know.
The lag putt.
Yeah, that was unbelievable.
That was insane.
It was unbelievable. It was like he is in real big trouble right now, and I mean, of course everyone you're pulling for him, and then he hits that shot and it's like that was what was so cool about it is that it can be done, but it takes an extremely high level of precision if you're in the wrong spot.
That is like kind of a recipe of Augusta Nashvial. In general, I think where it plays the best is that every shot as possible, and that's where it plays with the best players in the world's egos a little bit, because none of the shots are you know. I think like if you think about like your US Open thick rough, which I think they've gone a little away from that, but we can still use it as the example your your father's US Open, where it's ten inch rough and
you're in it it's just impossible. You can't do anything with it. Augustina never has that kind of impossibleness. There's always a way you can achieve a shot, and you can, if you're willing to take it on, hit a great shot that completely flips the tables on your situation. And I think that that with the way the Greens in work, that it's all kind of the Greens that set that up totally.
And that's what's so fun about If you ever have a chance to go to a practice around to anyone who's listening, just go, I mean, got it. It's so fun to watch them hit these different putts and experiment are around to different locations without the you know, having to count the score, and so they're trying all kinds of different things, and you know, you see them putting with their back to the hole and aiming away like the puts on number nine for instance, I mean to
a lower pin. I mean where you're aiming versus where the ball lands up is just two completely different things. And it's fun to watch the best in the world experiment in that way.
It is it is I think you know you you talked about fourteen, how it's set in the side of the hill. I think that's another aspect of Augusta's greens, right.
You have.
You have greens that are on ridges, kind of we talked about ten and seven.
Like number three. Three is a good example.
Three is a great example of ridges. You have greens that sit on the ground, like two a good example. Other good examples would be like eleven, twelve, thirteen. Then you have kind of the holes that play along the side of the hill, and those are you know, fourteen's obviously one of the most famous greens of that stretch, and I think it's gotten a lot of love over the years. It's it should I mean, it's got this amazing false front and almost three tiers that kind of
go down like steps. It's beautiful green. The one that I find myself staring at all the time is the seventeenth and I think like one of the you know, they have all these holes that run along the hillside, which is like a pretty severe hill. It's not an easy I imagine, it's not an easy place to build golf along, and in particular at the green.
Correct building the side of a hill is very challenging.
Yes, Like to me, one of the things that's crazy. Is the optical illusion sometimes that these sidehill holes present where there's so much slope, but they build up in seventeen it's the classic example that that hole on the right where they have that high, you know, right whole location, it looks like it's like up in the air. But if you're coming from the left side, it's like an optical illusion. It almost seems it runs away so fast.
It's insane, Yes, insane optical illusion. But that green to me, with all the different variations, you have the back left section that's amazing, you have the right over the bunker, and then you obviously have the back right location. That one, to me is one that that just I could sit there and just stare at it for days. Is there another one for you that really stands out?
Number five is one that I could stare at for days. I talked about one earlier. One green on my last trip to Augusta, which was last year, that I spent some extra time around that. I don't know if I'd ever really stared at it from this direction. They were actually mowing the green at the end of the day,
so I was really close to it. Was number sixteen, and you know sixteen has the famous Sunday pin, and you would think that it would have a really sharp transition in the green there from the back to the front, but it's more subtle than it seems like because of
how much the balls gather down there. It's kind of a tilted plane, and I think it you know, probably you have a little bit of a flat spot on the back where the ball can hold up, and then it kind of goes to like four or five six percent probably, and then it slows down at the bottom and it just fits in there. Think that's one thing that's so cool about Augusta. It's so elegant. Things just flow and fit in. It's extremely bald, but at the same time it all ties in. And fourteen might be
the you know, the best example of that. I mean, it just ties in perfectly a grade on the left hand side and then just kind of tumbles and it's like it's not it's not forced, it's not trying to do things, but it does them effortlessly and in a very profound way.
Mackenzie used to would write about how they should just like be effortless flows like a long horizon line, and that's you know, how he tried to get that into I think, like, what if you were gonna critique some of the new work is that it has brought a sharpness to some of the greens that didn't exist before.
I'm thinking particularly of like the new work on the backside of six is very sharp where it used to just kind of flow up, and I think like it's got to be one of the harder balances if you put yourself in the shoes of an architect there of.
And I think the club probably grapples a little bit with this, is like are we a golf tournament venue for the best players in the world or still or a club for our members, right, because you know, I think like some of the work has lost a little of that art artistry, but it's in the it feels like, in the vein of of being a little more penal.
Mm hmm. Yeah. I remember having that conversation with you about six last year, and that that is it's a valid point. I mean, you know that that might be one of those things that overnight sometimes just kind of changes and nobody really notices it, but it kind of softened a little bit around the edges. The other one I remember running into, uh, I think I was talking to Jeff Shackelford last year and we were talking about how cool the front left pin on thirteen is that
Mackenzie drew. How if you look at the old drawings, I feel like that should be discussed too, that that was such a neat location that's not there, but that would be cool if you could go back to that.
Yeah, well, I mean what dynamics would would be reintroduced if they got you know, originally Augusta National had all these tongues and you know they and what I mean by that is like the imagine the edges just extending a little bit further and they're almost like a mee boy shapes to them, and they would What would that do to the golf course? If you were to be able to reintroduce some of those tongues, I.
Think it would introduce another layer of complexity and challenge. You know, if you look at the old pictures of four and seven and nine, those tongues are probably too tight, at least that's the way they appear in the photos. They would need to be a little more substantial than
they looked in the early thirties. But you know, Mackenzie had a way of tucking those behind a bunker or next to a little mound or something where you could utilize a contour to get close and play away from you know, play away from a hole, or you had to challenge a bunker. I think it would be interesting. I don't think it would be less interesting if you could.
Restore one old whole location that doesn't exist anymore, would it be that front left one on thirteen?
I think so. I think thirteen is one of the maybe five or ten best holes in the world, and it's just an incredible golf hole, and just for the sake of, you know, making it go to eleven, maybe that would be fun.
I feel like that green the hole gets talked about, but there is so great and how it just promotes and I think like where I always tell people to walk Augusta backwards, like you start on eighteen green and you walk backwards because like you look at the green and then the hole makes a lot of sense. And I think thirteen thirteen is kind of like the crown jewel of how you can orient to green and contour green to reinforce how you want the gameplay of a
hole to play out. Yeah, because that green makes everything else work on the hole.
It does. I mean, you can get to those front right or back right pins, but you've got to challenge the creek. If you kind of wimp out or hit not quite the right shot, you kind of get hung up, and then all of a sudden you're going, oh god, I don't want a three put I can't leave them about to three putt and par a par five. And so it creates this dynamic in your mind. You know, it's it's such a fascinating hole.
It's you know, like off the tee. It's just saying, hey, get up the left side, just hit it up there. But you stand there and you're like, I, I can't mess with that creek, and you bail out right because the green, the way the green shaped that tells you to hit it up the left beyond anything right it the way it kind of angles and opens all the if you're of the left, every contour on that green helps you funnel it right.
Well. Not only not only that, but another thing that's so cool about that hole is the left side has far left, far less right to left slope, so you have a you have a better, more level life if you're playing up the right hand side, you've got to a ball above your feet with the green going like that the other way, and that just adds to the complexity of it.
And I always say, this is the best golfer you know, is probably the most conservative golfer you now, right, Like they're actually like the biggest whims because the better you get, the more averse you get to any sort of risk yep. So it's like an amazing t shot because it's like, okay, like I'm dumping it out right or I'm like going to try and just like hit it up the right and if it turns over, it turns over. That's I imagine how most of these guys play play the hole.
But I cannot mess with left. So then if you just end up hitting it where you're looking, you end up with this awful lie. I mean, it's horrendous, it's impossible.
And it's just scary as hell, and you you're you're then your e'er in your mind going I've got a birdie this hole. But then you've got this shot that feels basically impossible. And I mean that's that back nine is just so fascinating because it's just whole after all, after hole you get this interesting dynamic where the guys got to make that decision.
Yeah, yeah, And it's all because of that orientation of the green because from the right, the other thing that's working against you is the green. The green's all of a sudden, super shallow and unforgiving, and you've got a hook lie, which makes it even more unforgiving because the ball is gonna move left and you're gonna end up left. But if you don't, you know, Like, one of the things that's super interesting about the shot is like long irons
do not draw the way you think they like. You get those lies and you think like, oh, this is gonna hook, but they don't hook because they don't have as much spin on them as the short irons. So you're weighing that and you don't. I feel like these guys hit less and less of these, and then it's like, okay,
can I get it into the pocket? Like I just think it's a fascinating aspect And I think one of the things that goes a little like if they reintroduce that front contour, I'd be interested to see how guys laid up. That's like, I think the most interesting thing about the front pin would you see guys like, hit it way back?
Would you go? I could? I could. You could make an argument that you would want to go far to the right, wouldn't you way right and right, way right and long? And then you're playing back across the green. You have green all the way. All you got to do is hit it over the creek to be on land. It's not you know, disasters probably not there. But you could use that contour then to feed it down where you could you could play safe but have a reward.
You know, that would be God, that'd be interesting. But there again, you know, is it is it easier to challenge the creek on the left and then just you're just staring right at it and it's just like this tiny little pitch to a little flat spot. I mean, maybe that's easier. I don't know. But if that's the type of thing you'd be thinking about, is.
What's your least favorite green out there?
My least favorite green? Sorry, this has taken me a while.
That's always my favorite question about it.
It's a hard question. Obviously, I like the eleventh hole, but Mackenzie had some really awesome mounds on the front right that kind of have been softened over time, and I think that would be interesting to have those back. I mean, and that's no way really a slide of that green. I mean, I think it's a good green, but maybe it's kind of the Maybe it's the least dynamic of the greens. I mean, it's the pond plays
such a big role in that hole. It's maybe not I guess what I'm trying to say is it's maybe not so much about the green as it is other something else.
I think about, like greens as this surrounds. Also, it feels like that those mounds have been taken out of play.
They're really not. I mean, if you look at old pictures, I mean, those things were huge, and that that's where Bob's comment about Mackenzie, you know on acid. I mean, those were so strong in the mounds on eighth that you mentioned, and there was a huge mound on the left of seventeen. If you look at all old historic photos and you know, I think that you know, Augusta National is such a bold and fascinating piece of property.
He was kind of matching the built environment to that boldness and not shying away from it, I think is what he was trying to do and he achieved it. I mean, it's got this sense of like, wow, this place is just it embraces its boldness. You know what I'm saying.
I know exactly what you're saying.
It was like a lot of people would probably shy away from the baldness of the property and try to build something softer. That's not what happened.
Well, I think it's like, you know, we've mentioned Bob's comment about the asset thing, but like this was such a different golf course anything that people had seen. I'm reading Kurt Sampson's book right now, and like a lot of the players hated the golf course the first the early play, they were like, what is this golf course? You know, because it was it's out there, It introduced like it was certainly like a it was a push
in a direction. And really I think like one of the things that's fascinating about the history is like this was effectively like the last great golf course built before the Great Depression. You know, there were some that were being built by Perry Maxwell and in Oklahoma and Kansas and you know, and those, but like this golf course, then the art of golf architecture just hit a screeching halt because of the Great Depression in World War Two.
But this golf came in vogue and housing developments afterwards, and then all of a sudden, you don't really have anything built like that for a very very long time.
I think those mounds on a Evan, you know, to get back to that, what's become like the play and this is you know, those mounds really pushed to the front of that front right of that green. What's become the play And you see this is like the Scottie Scheffler playbook. He just dumps it to the right, just does not like Scotty's trying to hit the front right of that green. That's all he's trying to do. Yeah, like it's not going left. You know, we saw Ludwig
last year missed it left. He's the one thing you can't do, yea. And he just dumps it over there and he gets up and down. If those if there's a giant mound there, I think you would think, like.
You'd think twice about it.
Because you could if it's firm, you could hit the mound. It could bounce into the.
Water for sure. And Mackenzie talked about I mean if you read their comments about the construction. Of course, you know, the game's changed so much now. I don't know that they would do it, but it was so much. It was about running the ball in, you know, having contour influence. But I think your points valid, Like if those were really firm, I mean, it could kick and redirect and
in a way that you don't want. And you know, another thing that's so fascinating about the course is how many greens were based at least in part on something from you know, Scotland. You know, you just go through them. It's one after another. I mean four the Eden five was inspired by seventeen at Saint Andrews. Six was a ridan, seven was valley of sin in front of eighteen at Saint Andrew's. Eight was a punch bowl. He talks about number seventeen at Mierfield. I think then, you know, going
through the back nine fourteen and seventeen. Seventeen was supposed to be the opposite of the fourteenth green at Saint Andrews, where you could come in from the far right to play up against the slope that you were talking about. Yeah, whereas it h Yeah, anyway, it's just it's cool how they implemented those concepts on a hilly Georgia site. I think that's one of the neatest thing that's ever been accomplished.
Also, I think, like you know, inspiration gets a bad term, like templates have gotten this kind of like I think people love like the identifiability of it, like they make golf architecture a little approachable. But there are some that have like resisted against this, like oh, it's just templess. But like one of the things I love is like people are like look at six and they're like, well, it's not really a radan, Like that's but it's like that's an adaptation of a radan, And I.
Think that's kind of I think that's an important point is that they were capturing the spirit of those holes and some of the questions that they asked and just the essence of them. And a lot of it was about how the ball reacted when it hit the ground. And you know, even though it's a much more aerial game today, Augusta National still makes these guys think about how the ball is going to move on the.
Ground exactly, I think, I mean, I mean, that's.
What it's all about. That's the classical adaptation. I think you have to think about those kind of things.
And I love like, you know, like the normal dan Hold does not have the whole location on the right side on six for example, but that whole location is so fun on Saturdays when they put it up there.
Man, that's a tough hole, isn't it.
It's crazy that is.
You look at it from the tee and you think about hitting that. That's a tough one. And then you know, standing behind the tee on sixteen, I mean that isn't The guys are so good they kind of make it look somewhat easy to the bowlpen behind the the bunker. But god, that is a scary looking shot with a tournament on the line. To try to imagine that.
There's a lot of scary shots out.
There, one after another.
Yeah, all right, last question, what green would you have in your backyard if you could have one?
I think I'd go with fourteen.
It's hard to go wrong with that one.
What about you seventeen.
Seventeen? I do love seventeen. I think i'd go fourteen. It's become kind of the hipster thing, you know, I think, like, yeah, I think I would do that one. Would be a heart. One honestly would be probably the most fun one to chip around. Yeah, yeah, two would even be cool. I think two is underrated, right, yeah, because you can get I.
Think three is underrated too. I mean basic, it's of all the holes, it's one of the least changed. I mean, they added a cluster of bunkers in the fairway, but as far as the hole goes, it's pretty darn similar to the original and similar length too, and it's it's a very scary approach shot.
It's it's funny. Jeff and I talked a lot about three. We talked and he was talking about the introduction of the extra bunkers on the left, how it's taken a little of the essence of that layup away where you could play left and then you're in shore of the bunker and then you're hitting up.
Into the rather than across it.
Yeah, and now this, you know, like it almost puts you into a bad spot to lay up to from a lot of the holes where you're playing down slope.
I think that's a great point.
Yeah, it's a I do love three, you know, I don't. I don't want to humble Breck, but as someone who when when I you know, you're always outside the ropes and I read greens a lot with my feet. M hmm. And when I got to go onto the Greens three was shocking the amount of slope hurdling away.
From right to left. How scary that is?
Oh my, like your feet your the sensation in your feet. You're like, this is terrifle.
I'm gonna I'm gonna put it into the middle of four fair way.
Yeah, it's just like, oh my god, there's a lot of slope.
On this creek. Yeah yeah, it's.
Uh yeah, I you know. One of my one of the things I love, uh and I keep rambling here, but I love about the construction of the Greens is how the slopes, the tears, they aren't just like uh, they have like a back roll to them.
Yes, so when you have when you.
Don't hit a great shot. I this is something that a personal huge bugaboo of me putting is when I have to go up a slope and then there's a downslope on the backside. I hate them because like it's like you need to give it enough juice to get over. But then when it has the downslope on the backside,
it's so hard. It makes putting so tough. Yeah, and I think it introduces such a element of like you have to be a great lag putter because of this, because there's always a backslope on You see these big slopes and your eyes drawn to the big slope that's obvious, but on the backside of those slopes there's always another slope. So it's almost like all these putts are like up and overs and that was like, and they hide all the small slopes in the greens is the other thing.
And it's just it's easy to wind up with a ten plus foot putt or more second time. I mean, that's just some of the hardest lag puts you've ever seen out there.
Yeah, it's incredible, But Rob, thank you for coming on.
I love chatting thinking about Augusta. I can't wait for the tournament.
Are you going any days?
I don't have any plans. Well, you know, maybe I'll get lucky.
And run into some tickets.
Run into a ticket or something like that. So I've had some fun taking my daughter out there the last several years, and I've loved, you know, her getting into it a little bit.
So what's what's the age minimum for daughter out there.
Oh, I think you could take him. My brother changed his daughter's diaper underneath the trees on the left hand side of number two in nineteen ninety eight in a practice round, so that was fine. We feel like we want to take it back. They haven't, you know, denied us.
Yeah, I go. I might wait till six. Six might be a better age than four and a half. All right, Rob, thanks for coming on. Everybody can follow you. Everybody can go see your work out in the wild, you know, one of the some of the most public and accessible places of the new New designs. And look forward to seeing more and more of your work as you've been very busy.
Thanks Andy, it's great to see you man. Hope to see you around.
Hope to see in augusta yeah, hopefully next week see a tea bones.
All right.
Big thanks to PJ. Clark for editing and producing this episode. Also huge thanks to Rob and Jeff for their time. It's always great to chat with both of them. We will be back early next week. We will be doing a Sunday drop of our Master's preview podcast. It'll be our traditional five Things about the Masters, so that will be out on Sunday in your feed. I will be joined by the Great High Adas. I'm looking forward to that, so we'll have high ideas to preview Trevor Immelman to recap.
It should be a awesome Masters. I hope everybody's getting into the mood. We will be back on Sunday, so it'll be kind of loaded in for your early week. You can just kind of get into that Master's mood. Maybe I'm not going to promise it. Maybe if something happens, we'll drop another one in there in the feed next week, but it'll probably be a Sunday and then the following Wednesday with Trevor schedule. So big thank you to PJ
for putting this together. Looking forward to next week's Masters, and look for your episode on Sunday