Ep. #70: Jett McCandless, CEO & Founder, project44

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Andrew Silver joined today by a special guest . This one is extra special , as they all are , mr Chet McCandless . Chet , welcome to the show . How are you doing ?

And there's also something that has always felt mysterious about this business . Maybe it's just me and not having understood it well enough , but I'm excited to dive into the story of P44 as well as kind of your own journey .

So I think I want to start with you and just take me all the way back to kind of your origin in freight , how you got here and what your early days in freight looked like .

I remember back then I was dispatching trucks and with nike and columbia sportswear and bowflex manufactured in the us then , and I would just tell them what the ETA was for their truck . I worked swing shift . I went to university in the morning . I remember I looked over at my boss one day and I said , hey , like what's the ?

Why do I have this job to answer the phone and tell them what the ETA is Like ? They have the internet , we have the internet . Why don't we just communicate ? He says shut up , kid , keep answering the phone . Tell them the truck's going to be there in 15 minutes . I was like , all right , that's a lot of money 12 bucks an hour . I'll keep doing it .

But that's where I kind of started falling in love with it and you and I were kind of talking a little bit before the show . There's so much opportunity for problem solving in this space and when you're working at a carrier on LTL dock , you get to play Tetris with the physical world .

And not only you're dealing with an epitome situation , we're doing a lot of union personalities too , back then , such as like there's so many layers and opportunities to explore and to take the things that I valued in life or I had fun with and do it . But yeah , it was . That was a great time .

I ended up doing all the operation roles at yellow and roadway and eventually got in sales . Eventually I managed Walmart , which is a billion dollars of revenue for YRC . Yellow had acquired roadways a billion dollars of revenue . That was a lot . I was 27 years old , I know I thought it was cool .

I was living in kansas city , which was not cool and um , uh , but we won like carrier of the year and innovator of the year from walmart and I just kind of looked around and thought , well , there's no other account that's as big . I've done all the sales and ops jobs .

When I go over to this global trans company um , I know those guys , uh , a little bit . I want to understand what they're doing Like how are they actually getting these LTO rates online and how are they selling and how are they making this margin ?

Because I've been in the industry for probably eight or nine years then , but that whole concept back then was foreign to me . So I went over and I joined , joined those folks , and we had a good , good run and then it had pretty disastrous end , let alone me , and what does that mean ? I don't know .

When you're an entrepreneur , okay , and I think for me , it's like I always go all in , I always push and I'm always just trying to be the absolute best , and I think I brought that everyday global trans and I earned a lot of sweat equity , uh , through that , which I was really appreciative of that opportunity .

It's how they were able to retain me and you know , we had actually got ourselves in a pretty big situation at Global Trans . So you know , we were growing 100% year over year . We weren't really . We would take a lot of business customers that had bad credit , but hey , that was okay . We didn't have any debt facility at our fingertips .

We didn't have any venture capital . None of us knew how to do it .

We were just a bunch of guys in Phoenix trying to grow a LTO brokerage online , and one thing that I'll give Andrew and Brad really a lot of credit for is that we basically built a vertical integrated operating system and with all proprietary technology and as we , that was the customer service , the portal , the operations teams , like everything .

And when we went to go to mass 500 , I think it was the accounting system , netsuite we also wrote out a new tms at the same time hey , why not ? And um , we didn't know what you're doing and we had a situation where we didn't invoice customers for like two or three months .

And so if you do that and you're paying carriers in 15 to 30 days and you got customers paying you in 45 and 60 and you're going 100 year over year and you got no deficit and you don't know how to raise capital , you in 45 and 60 and you're growing 100% year over year and you've got no deficit and you don't know how to raise capital .

You meet yourself , on a relative basis , a fairly successful company , and so we ended up selling to a private equity firm and I didn't like the terms at all and I didn't want to sign documents .

I had a decent amount of equity and I didn't like this guy named Tony Albanese that Andrew had brought in and started taking over the company from an ops standpoint , who later tried to get Andrew fired .

So Andrew and I had a very , very high friction exit that involved attorneys and lawyers and non-competes and and , and I don't think for well over a decade , uh , we were each enemy number one to one another .

Actually , we were at the P44 event that you had Mark Wahlberg come speak at , what was the restaurant RPM Steak . I was at a dinner table with Andrew Leto , robbie Nathan . I was at a . I was at a dinner table with , uh , andrew Leto , robbie Nathan , myself and Kevin Nolan , which was a great group .

I didn't know Leto at the time , though , and he made a comment that , uh , I did not sit well with me , and I reacted , and the next two years , we hated each other . Um , we just made up a few months ago , and we just made up a few months ago , so I'll probably have him on the show at some point .

I was keeping him at arm's length because of that , but let me

go back to your commentary there .

I'm curious , like I've been there and I'm trying to think of the best way to kind of say what I want to say is , like it's frustrating when you I completely understand what you mean by like building a business and pouring yourself into it and pouring all of yourself into it , which means the good and the bad , um , the emotion , uh , I just that .

That resonates with me a lot when I think about my own like journey and my time at Molo . It's like I can't . I can't look at that time without feeling some sense of guilt and almost shame for , like the negative parts of me that did show up in the business all the time .

That's just what happens , I think , when you really pour yourself in and maybe other people are a lot better at it than I was , or maybe you were when you were in your twenties . People are a lot better at it than I was , or maybe you were when you were in your 20s .

But I guess what I'm curious about is like you put all this energy and effort and clearly value into building this business Global Trans with Leto and whoever else was on that team , and then you have this kind of really unfortunate ending to the story .

I'm curious if you look back on it with like , with any regret , or if there's like if you wish you had done something differently , and how you carried out that process . Cause when I look at kind of my departure from Molo , which was , frankly , ugly .

Two years later , I have regret about my role in it and how I , how I showed up in that , and I'm just curious how you feel like as you think about that , you know , a decade later .

At this point , I think , like a lot of things in life , experience and perspective , you could be critical of yourself , but you also have to take those things as learning opportunities and experiences , and unfortunately , some have to happen in order to become the person that you want to be , and some people would call that wisdom .

I think I wasn't the CEO of Global Trans . I was a large equity holder and I think being the CEO of a company a couple of companies now is giving me a different perspective . I could have handled it differently . I certainly was getting uh , uh , taken advantage of uh on the exit is the private equity guys and things were coming in , but um , I , uh .

I would have handled things slightly different in hindsight , but at the same time , I think it all worked out really , really well and it was probably time for me to go do that . It opened a lot of doors , built a lot of friendships with people Once the non-compete was over .

That's how I met really great people like Doug Wagner and your dad and Bobby at Blue Grace and the Worldwide Express guys , and I would go consult with them because Global Trends did have some really unique magic special sauce and I was able to go and take that innovation and the ideas that I had created and apply it and monetize it , which then opened up the

doors for me to , as I could see how more brokers were operating . I could then see their reoccurring themes and patterns , which is what led to Project 44 . But I think on the global trends exit specifically , I could have done it with less friction .

I could have not been so brash , probably on on on it , but hey , I was being really mistreated and back then it's like if you want to fight like , I'm your guy . Uh , so you know , yeah that's .

And in a lot of ways , that can be a super valuable I don't know character trait and some others , uh , it can be challenging . One other question I have on that is just is there a lesson or something that you learned in like how to protect yourself in the future , or something that other people maybe could take away from just navigating being ?

It's hard when you pour yourself into a business and you earn that sweat equity but you're not the decision maker , so it's not your choice to sell the company and someone else's and you have to accept that if you're not the CEO of any company really , or controlling interest in any company . But is there something as you look at that that you learn ?

Like next time I would never allow this or I wouldn't agree to that something that is valuable as a takeaway ?

Look at the document that I signed . So problem number one but , again . I came from Section 8 , housing , food stamps , things like that . There was no attorney in the family , there was no one to reach out to . At that point in life I was by far the most successful person in you know , a national account executive at Yellow .

So that doesn't excuse ignorance , and I certainly wasn't spending . There was no chat GPT back then either . But yeah , I should have taken more precautionary measures and you know it would have been slightly different . But at the end of the day too , you can't live behind attorneys .

You've got to look at who you're doing business with and what will happen when there's a dispute .

At whatever age 27 , the first thought isn't to just go get a lawyer and have them , like you know , read through these documents and protect you , but the other side . So it's definitely valuable for anyone who's listening .

If you're finding yourself in a position where you're joining a company that's on the rise and you're seen as a valuable part of it , you're given a piece of equity or anything like . You should have a lawyer look at it One hundred percent . A lawyer look at it 100 .

The challenge on the flip side is lawyers are designed to protect you to the like nth degree and they're paid to do that and it becomes really hard to make .

This is now I'm speaking as a former ceo business owner who sold a business and had to go through that process delineating between or making a decision between do I want to trust the people I'm partnering with versus listening to my lawyer who is trying to protect me in every facet possible ?

It's a really delicate dance to do , because they usually contradict do because they usually contradict . And , for example , like in my case , as we were going through our deal with Artbest , there were like hundreds of things where our lawyer was like you shouldn't sign this , like this is bad for you .

And I would go to Artbest and say , hey , they don't want me to sign this . And they're like , well , we can't do it , we're a public company , we have to have it structured this way .

And when you get that over and over again we're a public company , we have to have a structure this way you get to a place where you either have to trust that they need to be protected that way and I have to give up that and trust that that won't hurt me in the end or you'd go with your lawyers and say , hey , I'm not protected enough , and then a deal

never gets done . You know the end result . One of the things that I remember my lawyer saying to me was he was like the way this is written , they could turn you into the janitor the day after you sell the company and there's nothing you could do about it . And I said that to Dan Lowe and he was like why would we make you the janitor ?

I'm like I understand you wouldn't , but this says you could and you know I chose to trust and they didn't make me the janitor . But you know I got fired so it didn't exactly work in my favor , but I think I played a role in that . But I just it's a , it's a challenge , right .

They're there to give counsel and you've got to make a business decision . They shouldn't be making the business decision . I had almost the inverse happen a few months ago .

Someone that's a really good friend of mine and we started talking about some business and they took some advice from an attorney that I thought was kind of an overreach and as things were getting going and we reached an impasse and you know , I think in hindsight he probably thinks that you know that was he should have applied more business logic rather than just

you , than just the attorney , because the attorney will kill the deal . We went away as friends and we're still good friends . I'm cheering for him , but you can't ever get it perfect . There are always different situations .

You mentioned that Global Trans had this kind of magic to it , and Global Trans is a company that someone I think I've heard a few times of like the Global Trans mafia , and it just seems like there are a lot of really talented and successful people that have come out of that world , the same way that people look at Coyote and other companies and say there are

all these things that were born out of that organization . You and Project 44 are a great example of that , having had experience at Global Trends , and I'm just curious what was the magic at Global Trends ? Why was it such a successful business ? Why was it growing 100% year over year ?

And the second was he's a good , good product guy , visionary guy , and so I think that that worked well . He also had an approach which I had never seen anything like it before , where you , you know , if you look at hindsight , he probably made a bet on thousands and thousands of people that didn't work out and he would just cut them loose ultra quickly .

And , coming from more of a corporate world , I remember the first time I was like wait , that person just started like 17 days ago . I was like , ah , it's not going to work out for him . I was like whoa , like a yellow , like you know , you had to really like misquote it for like a year and stuff Like .

So I think I think that kind of formula together . And then we were all really obsessed with the product and the technology and there was a guy named Abishak who Brad Berlin found I think it was called Elance back then and it's up work now . There's like just one , one little engineer .

He ended up building a huge company called Dream Orbit , turned into hundreds of engineers in Bangalore but he was certainly a lot of secret sauce on building that and now he's gone on to build an agent company called Lunapath ai and I think that company will be really successful also .

A year ago I understand why you might not have seen that freight as an opportunity , but today Cargado exists and that means any load coming into or out of Mexico is now an opportunity for you to support . In just over a year I've been able to see Cargado go from ideation to launch to rapid growth .

It's amazing to see how many logistics companies have been able to use Cargado to expand into Mexico to grow their business . Cargado is the first platform that connects logistics companies and trucking companies who are moving freight into and out of Mexico .

If you move Mexico freight or are planning to reach out to Cargado today at cargadocom , that's C-A-R-G-A-D-O dot com . So that's a really interesting comment around the willingness to fire someone after 17 days and it's it's interesting to me I , when I think about that was a big flaw for us at Molo is we gave people way too long of a leash .

I don't know why I had this mindset where when I , when I saw someone not doing well , my first thought was how are we failing them ? Failing them , how are we not setting them up enough for success ? And it really took five years . It wasn't until in the last year I was in the business that I remember telling someone .

Like one of the leaders was like I want us to be more like TQL Not like in totality , but there's something about the ruthless nature by which they bring you aboard and say show me you can swim , and then , if you can't , got to get them out before they become like this kind of answer to the culture .

And it's probably a spectrum between like giving someone way too long of a leash and then being that ruthless , but I do think it's a . I think this is an industry , especially on the sales side , where you can know pretty quickly if someone is going to have what it takes to succeed .

If they're willing to put in the effort that's like step one right out the gate . Are they willing to actually bang the phones and bang their head against the wall , knowing that they're going to bleed before they see anything positive come out of it , before they see anything positive come out of it ? And so I don't know .

I appreciate that commentary because I see that as , like , a fundamental flaw in how I ran my business was you let people hang around long enough who are C players , d players , not adding enough value . It brings the whole business down .

It tells the people around them that it's okay to slack off , to push things out , and it just does not create the kind of culture you want .

Now it doesn't mean you have to fire everybody after 17 days , but I think there's a happy medium where you give people fair expectations out the gate and they have to prove that they want to be there and are capable , and then , once they've done that , you give them all the support in the world to to reach the highest levels .

But getting out the bad apples early is is definitely a valuable trait that . I could see why that helped , yeah

.

Uh , certainly around now , around around this point , but if labor markets are tight , especially for roles and things you need , you might have to compromise on some of these points . But generally speaking , like at Project 44 , we've always been a performance culture . Global Trans was a performance culture .

I've tried to have more empathy than say , like what we had at Global Trans and more tools for success .

But there is a reality that some people are really good at interviewing and not so good on the job , so you'd hope that you could identify the traits and talk to people about what it takes to be successful , because it's really expensive to hire on board , especially in tech .

Like our average cost per employee , I think it's like 156 000 or something like it's really high , and then you have ramp time and everything . So , um , but you also look like like it . Let's . It's june 19th of 2025 . A year ago , I told everyone in the company , like you know , ai is coming .

We're gonna make ai ops ai go to market ai native company and we've invested in a lot of training and when I look at like how we are today and what I've been messaging really since probably about January or February is you could have been an excellent employee for the last you know , team member for the last two or three years .

But if you are not learning these new skills that we're investing in , if you're not becoming AI first , if your first thing is I need to hire a new person , rather than what than ? How can I put together some of these tech stacks that we've made available ? You're not competitive anymore . I appreciate what you've done , but you've got to adjust .

I think some people are really embracing that and they love that . They can come to Project 44 and get probably more AI training , certainly than anyone else in the Midwest . I think it would probably be top , top percentile over over on the in the Bay area . But what do you do with someone like that ?

Someone's been great for maybe two or three years and then you know . But their role is so much different now and what my expectations are . I have a little bit of patience with them , but at the same time , I won't have enough patience where they can stick around for six more months or nine more months .

at this point we're getting to the end of that fuse and change the map . In fact , I sent an email to the company yesterday of people that haven't completed their AI training and it's disappointing and , to be honest , it's hours and hours and hours and hours of training . But you know , in my opinion it's the basics .

Like if you're not using these products , it's kind of like not being able to use email .

Like have you kind of is that kind of the lay of the land where you've given them all these tools and it's like hey , go , use them at your go , learn them at your disposal but please learn them .

And let me just bifurcate for the listeners out there . Of course you have your tech team , where the product has had AI in it for years . I bought an AI company for $65 million four and a half years ago , so that was before thinking back then . The AI product side is one thing , but what I'm talking about right now is AI operations , ai go-to-market .

How are you getting more leverage out of your team ? We operate the business with OKRs . Here . We have five objectives , and one of them is I want 25% efficiency with AI in this fiscal year which ends in January , and that doesn't just mean cost reduction , that's increased revenue , beat board numbers , et cetera .

And yeah , you know so there's 652 team members right now and you know there was like 30 or so .

We're always be a performance culture . We weren't necessarily a performance culture in 2021 and 2022 . I had taken some bad advice , uh , and of course I'm accountable for it . But , uh , you know , bringing in the professional managers and things and um , you know , but and we've , we've paid a heavy , heavy tax for that .

But , like we , we certainly are back to our days of used performance culture . That comes with expectations .

But for the listener who doesn't know about your business , I think it would be a disservice not to start with the origin story of what you're building . And you know , I guess , what was the original vision for the business and what were you trying to tackle . When and how are you approaching it ?

We had EDI set up but this is this asynchronous technology that has , you know , it's being batched in six hours , eight hours , and basically my job was there to fill the gap of the EDI batching six hour , eight hours and basically my job was there to fill the gap of the EDI batching . You fast forward to when I managed Walmart .

I think we had over 30 operators that would just pass information back and forth from YRC to Walmart . It was in my system , it wasn't in their system and , not being a technologist , it was difficult for me to understand . But hey , it was in the budget and we had the people and Walmart wanted it and we had it .

So literally just transferring data back and forth and emailing it spreadsheets or whatever it was .

And bizarre , I know , but I remember I went down to the EDI department at Yellow I think it was like on floor six or something and said , hey , I don't think EDI is working like all this stuff back and forth and they do a big study and two weeks later they say it's working absolutely perfectly fine .

And it's like well then , what is all this headache Like why do I have all these invoices that don't match rate quotes and why do I have to dispatch orders manually and why do I actually have to take stuff and actually go to our website and enter in the orders when it's already dispatched to us through EDI ?

And for certain , like why are we taking tracking screens ? Why are we manually doing expedited orders ? Because the EDI 214 shows up after the product's delivered ? These types of things . I couldn't really ever figure it out . You know , it was like back then . It was kind of this idea like , well , that's the IT team and that's what they said . So frustrating .

But hey , I got more dock operations and sales . I guess I'll get back in my lane At Global Trans .

Individual right , Exposure to cultures and things like that were pretty , pretty limited , you know , through upbringing and travel . I I never even left the country , maybe at that point in my life , not other than Mexico , and just just you just said seeing the beautiful city of Kansas city .

Yeah , you know Indianapolis , phoenix , you know wherever I could drive , you know a tank of gas and you look at Abishag and I remember dropping off at the hotel and I was like that looks kind of sad being dropped off there . And the next day I thought , hey , man , like why don't you come stay at my house ? And we're in Phoenix .

And he's like , yeah , that sounds good . And he comes into my house and I had a down comforter and really dark hardwood floors back then and it had some leaks out of the small two bedroom condo and some feathers were coming out .

I remember he walked in , he starts walking around my house and this really bizarre thing and he looks at me , he goes really bizarre thing . And he looks at me , he goes where's chicken ? And I'm like what are you talking about , dude ?

And he's looking for a chicken in my house because culturally you know , for him like that would be a normal thing if you see feathers . But just my down comforter kind of like leaked a couple feathers in the house , not a dark card with forest .

So it really started like , like , like shocked me and the idea with him being there is that I just want to learn about tech , like ride with me in the car to and from the office and I just want to ask you a lot of questions .

And at Global Trans , what you quickly realize is that at every about $500,000 of revenue we had to hard code and FTE and on the operations side , because it had this beautiful UI that we built where you could get rate quotes for LTL and dispatch and tracking , but behind the scenes is really a mechanical turd and you could never really get the scale or efficiency

that you would think a business like that would be possible . And we made improvements there and I think we worked with what we had in budgets and things and I think that was an impressive situation . But it wasn't until I'd always sound like a Echo or Coyote or , you know , ch Robinson , like these guys had it figured out .

We just couldn't get it figured out at Global Trends , when I had the consulting company and I got to go consult for all these different brokers and I think it was probably like 50 or 60 of them when I realized that none of them had it figured out . All of them are reliant on these old EDI systems . All of them are batching .

All of them are really mechanical Turks behind the scenes where people are just plugging holes with fingers . And that's when I started looking around at , like other industries . How can I swipe a credit card and get a notification almost immediately on your bank account ?

How can you book a flight in a seat and reserve it and you show up and most likely that's the seat that you have like ? How is this information being transmitted ? And what I realized ? Well , this is an api and um .

Of course we all know apis now , but back then nobody really knew much about apis and nobody really talked about them , and so I just got a lot of inspiration . So what ? What if there was a one to many API layer ? And think of all the things we could fix in LTL .

And I had only minor exposure to truckload at that point in my career , and so I just said let's build this , let's fund it .

And it's the old classic story I was funding it , I had enough money to get it going , but tech is expensive and you have to forward deploy a lot of capital to build out tech , and I was in the West Loop and I had the title to my condo as one of my prizes out of the global trans thing and some other real estate deals and what was happening is Project

44 is bleeding me dry . I mean the over .

I mean I think I was writing 150 250 000 dollar a month checks and , um , I had sold watches and cars and motorcycles and everything I could , and the last thing I had was my title to the house and I was like , all right , let's or condo , let's see if I can borrow on this .

But you know , that was kind of the journey that we went on with that and we eventually got funding and that's what allowed us to start expanding into other modes .

What really , in hindsight it is , is that the first movers and the innovators were the brokers , and that's who we sold to . When I'd show up was a really large paint company on the east coast when we could get lucky enough to get shipper meetings . Uh , they always fell flat , never where they were .

So even to this day , I think out of the top 100 brokers , 82 of them use project 44 . That's not our core focus anymore and we gladly take that revenue and we're appreciative of it from them , but it's it's , but it's the shippers nowadays , but the brokers embraced it and the shippers didn't understand it and yeah .

Because there's friction on all those spots . And tracking was never really that high on my radar because the EDI tracking was kind of like the 214 . It was kind of like good enough in most cases , but certainly not always . And I think I walked out of Sherwin-Williams I think was the company , the paint company and I tried exploring it .

They were really struggling to understand what it was the EDI and what would happen . You'd go into the transportation it would be transportation folks and then they'd bring in their IT guy , which really was their EDI guy , and so you'd try to go in and you'd say , hey , like you want to use APIs , that's better than .

You know , look , look in the mirror what's your message or what's your product , or how are you ? How are you adjusting it ? And what we realized is is that , well , we need , we need to put a UI on this and if we want shippers to , to be interested in it .

And you know , I think that that was big because there were other companies out there that had UIs , um , somewhat flashing uis back then , and they were growing faster than us . It was really frustrating for me because I said , well , wait , this all starts about high quality data .

The industry doesn't need another application , certainly could use a ux overhaul , but being an operator was always data data was the problem , and so we got in that ui . And then the second adjustment was just thinking about back then . That's when the Obama administration starts to require ELDs and so truckload starts to be more available GPS .

If you were listening to the markets then and I think Forkites did a good job with this is they kind of took this tracking plus ETA and called it visibility , and which I always thought well , that's really passive If you're just looking at a transportation side , but at the end of the day , that's what shippers wanted .

First is they wanted to know , hey , where's my stuff and when's it going to arrive ? And so we leaned into that , not only on LTL and truckload in the U ? S . But then we made kind of , I think , an an aggressive move . We were only 70 people and we acquired a company for $23 million in Europe that had visibility or 600 telematics connections in Europe .

So we go to the shippers and say , hey , we can do ground transportation for you in Europe and the United States , visibility . And that started to resonate a lot more . And then we just got some major tailwinds like COVID and the Suez Canal , and we made some other acquisitions that we were able to lean into .

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When you say that Forecast looked at visibility as tracking plus ETA and it felt like you kind of have a different opinion of what visibility should be . Can you elaborate on what that in your mind's eye , what that looks like or what's missing from that ?

But visibility itself I've always known like isn't somewhere I started . It's not what I wanted , but I wanted to meet the market where it is and the data you get from it is incredibly valuable to create other , to make decisions , which is why we're now a decision intelligence platform from a marketing standpoint .

But on John's comment , someone says well , visibility is this or visibility is that , and I so I started , I just started asking the comments what does visibility mean to everybody ? Because it means different things to everyone , which we have certainly got in trouble with not clearly defining it before . But I would look at it nowadays from our perspective .

I think of visibility in kind of two main ways . You have transportation visibility , that's where's my truck , where's my container , where's that you know , dray , where's that , where's that shipment . And then you have in transit , inventory visibility , which is where's that PO , where's that part number , where's that sales order ?

And if you can go end-to-end like we can , from inland China to really anywhere in the world , or from Vietnam or Indonesia or US to anywhere in the world , what you can do is you can stitch these multiple modes together across all geographies and then you can really better manage your inventory that's in motion and of course the value prop on that to shippers is

outrageously high . The mode is very , very big because this is a network business at the end of the day , and nowhere in the company in the world has the geographies and the modes that we have .

So no one can offer that inventory in motion to as many global 2000s like we can and when you can do that what shippers can do is they can reduce their inventory and there's almost two trillion dollars of excess inventory system right now and there's a lot of reasons as to why we could talk about but that it seems like every cfo wants to take their slice out

of that , and I was . We had a large , really progressive shipper called alcon the guy's name's kurt and he was at gartner . He said this on stage , I think I can repeat it , but by using project 44 , he took one day's inventory out . So you know , here's a $9 billion , you know revenue company takes a day of inventory out . It's like what does that equal ?

Well , for a company like that , that's somewhere between about $10 to $15 million of cost that comes out . Well , that's very , very high value add , but that is certainly a lot more than here's a truck with an ETA . You've got to be much more dialed into that .

So when I hear people bash visibility , maybe it's right or it's wrong , but I think the first question is we'll first define it and then let's talk about why , because there are a lot of reasons as to why . There's reasons why we got really big trouble in 2023 and why were we in big trouble in 2023 .

People will say it's low , people say it doesn't work . It's like okay , that's one reason . Someone will say the ROI can be tough . Someone will say smarter . People say the data is difficult to aggregate .

Uh , and so these can all be really valid reasons , but one of the primary reasons as to why some of those things happen is that most , if you're selling to a vp or sv , well , let's first . If we're talking about the broker cohort which we don't sell to any brokers or manage the accounts .

Managing the accounts that we have , we purposely have churned out over 300 of them over the last 24 months . We've kept the really big , strategic ones like DSV and Hellman Logistics and Coyote and a couple of companies like that , and there's a whole reason for that .

But generally speaking , those are going to be single modes and a very tactical buyer and they're also very susceptible to the cyclical nature of the industry .

So if their contracts come up when you're in a down market , they're probably going to want , you know , say hey , we have 20% less volume , we want less this , and that's really bad for a SaaS business from like an NRR gross retention standpoint , which is really what drives the revenue of the business .

The other thing is is that there's always going to be some me and you could go start a visibility , a transportation visibility company . Today with 10 engineers , we could stand up some load and go undercut project 44 by five cents a container or whatever .

Whatever it is a truck , a shipment now we do that because , hey , we could run that out of your your , out of your house and but you know , when you're talking about running a real global , multi-modal visibility company like I , have to have international tax people and you know international operations , people around the world .

So my cost structure is higher and the brokers have low margins , or the foreigners , the lsps , and so naturally , if anyone can do it for a penny cheaper , there's always kind of this pricing pressure .

So you put those things , two things combined and you and most of them are a very fickle wire that aren't very good at buying technology and so you know , but they are used to buying services and they are used to like kind of pounding or pressing on a vendor and kind of getting their way or like somewhat of a transactional nature , even though they have some

strategic relations . Well , it's really hard to build a successful you know IPO log tech company with that and you know we're probably the largest Gen 2 log tech company in the world and you know . So I feel like I've gone to that ringer . That's the LSP cohort , which freight forwarders , brokers , 3pls and like .

Again you get the good ones , the big ones , the ones that have project management skills and some maturity to them . They're great and they're interested in like unlocking use cases and solving problems and kind of moving on to value outcomes for the customers rather than what can they get for a penny cheaper when you go to the shippers .

There's some things that are similar , which most people that are in transportation supply chain departments have probably only about one or two technologies in their entire career , but they have spent hundreds of millions , often billions , certainly , in their lifetime , maybe even one year . So a lot of leverage .

But if you also think about them , what are they normally buying from ? They're buying from service businesses .

They're buying from Modelo , they're buying from a carrier which , by definition , are services business , and so services businesses act and feel a certain way , and when you're building a tech platform , services businesses act and feel a certain way , and when you're building a tech platform , that's a different approach .

And so one thing we got in really big trouble with is that we somehow got accountable for the carrier's data . Now our platform is like a BYOB , but it's a BYOC . Bring your own carrier . There's 186 every day . There's about 256,000 carriers in 186 countries , and you can bring any carrier you want .

You can bring the big guy , fedex , dhl , jb Hunt , asset , non-asset .

You also can bring a carrier that's in , you know , italy right now , that feeds his goats a week and then goes and drives a truck when the rates go up and then goes and drives a truck when the , when the rates go up , and then you know , parks it for two , for two , for two two weeks , or in Indonesia or wherever , and all of these carriers are on their

own digitalization journey . That's happening and that digitalization is happening at different , different paces and at this point pretty much all of the big , large carriers have a pretty effective digital strategy . But that certainly wasn't the case in 2023 .

If we think about 2023 , the largest shippers in the world were begging carriers to back up with trucks and containers . And if you think about 2019 , 2020 , 2021 , 2022 , those weren't necessarily big innovation years . You don't think of carriers being really innovative back in those years either .

So you're kind of going into COVID with this previous years of not huge innovation . You come into COVID where the demand side the shippers said , hey , I want innovation for better outcomes , but they don't really have a lot of leverage with their carriers because they can't even get a container . So to dictate API quality of things is a problem .

And so I think it was natural for a VP of transport or chief supply chain officer to look at project 44 and go , hey , you know , I've been buying services for X number of years , p44 , you go fix the data with the carriers and it's like well . I have no leverage in that situation , like I can't , I can't fire them . I can't , I can't .

I can't do that . I can give you reports on performance . I can do project management . I can apply best practices . I can do that . I can give you reports on performance . I can do project management . I can apply best practices . I can talk to the carriers and help them develop their APIs . But it really comes down to when the rubber hits the road .

I don't have leverage and back in the height of the market I was spending $32 million a year trying to get carriers data better and that's a lot of cash right , and because of that we have this massive network and things . But that was obviously really big .

So I think on the shipper side , having bought technology don't know platforms very well , and it's as ridiculous as when I hear a customer say you better go get my carrier's data fixed . That would be like calling Benny off at Salesforce . I mean like , hey , salesforce doesn't work and you go , well , why doesn't it work ?

And he says , well , my sales reps aren't typing in the information and they're saying that the leads are bigger than they are and what's qualified . It's like , well , that's a sales rep compliance . This is a vendor compliance thing . So those are kind of the reasons I haven't bought tech , don't know how to apply leverage , but most of that is behind us now .

And there's a third thing is that , if you think about it in visibility , the carrier is the primary source of data , and the primary source of data is not always going to be great and probably about 20 months ago I actually kind of got pretty sad about the business and I was like dude , I don't think this is going to work .

Like just staring down the barrel of like obstacles that are I've never actually been . I actually have never been scared in my entire career . Like I've been nervous . I looked down and go , oh fuck , like this thing is , I don't know , this thing's big , I'm not sure we're going to be able to get this right .

And then , as we started using more voice and messaging agents and cameras and all kinds of other technologies to improve and enhance the primary source of data the carriers as we built more tooling for customers to be able to better manage data , everything kind of lined up and became a lot better .

Let me first just get this out of the way , because I thought this was really interesting .

You talked about this kind of price war that seemed to be going on , and it's interesting because I was talking to I don't remember who I was talking to this past week about all the AI companies coming into the space now , whether they're focused on scheduling or taking inbound calls , and people compared it .

They said you know , I think we're going to go through the same type of race to the bottom price war for these tools that , like the visibility companies went through a few years ago . So , like , what I'm curious is like did you actually , was that actually a problem ?

You had to navigate where you'd go sell to a customer and they'd basically be like well , we're interested , but Fork Heights is offering us a penny less . Will you come down ? Was that a serious issue ?

But when you then you go , well , they're not really the same thing , like , for instance , we're a very API-first company into the carrier's operating system , and if you can't do that , then we're telematics second . And the third is like , let's use a mobile app , and mobile apps have their challenges , but they certainly have their strengths too .

Well , macropoint is primarily , oh , a mobile app , and mobile apps have their challenges , but they certainly have their strengths too . Well , macropoint is primarily a mobile app , and mobile app is certainly the cheapest from a cost of goods standpoint , and so they naturally are going to be less expensive and they also have a primarily domestic solution .

So the R&D cost and thinking about GDPR and pulling these things together in stitchy modes , it's just a lower cost structure that they have in that model .

They're not a global company , despite the marketing and everything that they say . So I mean running a truly global operational business has a higher cost structure . We have employees in Japan . We have employees in China . We have employees in Latin America . We have 200 employees in Europe . If you've ever done a European labor law , it's awful .

So then you're trying to say you know what's the difference here and you know what's the value , and yet start breaking out these , these different value components . But again , I do think that visibility unless you're talking about inventory in transit visibility it's a bit passive and you get incredible data that allows other products to work .

But it's kind of like we think of the product now in four different steps . The first is connect , which is that data platform which no other company in the world has that . The second is C , which visibility falls in there . And the third is to act or execution , and then the fourth is how do you automate that ?

So I think we're in a really unique position because , like , for instance , all of their visibility companies started at first , and then how they connect the data was a secondary thought . Remember I started with let's fix the data problem and then we'll build applications on top .

So that gives us so much more runway than I think , anyone else out there in the market . But nowadays we see them less and less out in the market and our customers are looking more on how can they have next gen TMS , how can they integrate all of this into their YMS and their appointment scheduling ?

How can they also have transportation and inventory and transit visibility ? How can they have an e-commerce experience ? How can they make better decisions ? How can they improve their cash flow , their customer experience , so we can offer business outcomes that other companies can't , offer business outcomes that other companies can't .

And I think when we are able to articulate that and we can't always then we're able to show easily a 10 or 20x ROI , which is quite significant for tech and since no one else in the world can actually offer that , it's not as price competitive on that approach .

When we needed differentiated industry expertise in business consulting or technology services , we looked at Peter Ryan and the team at Metafora . They've consistently delivered value in the transportation and logistics space for over a decade for mid-market and enterprise brokers , for shippers , carriers , private equity and freight tech companies .

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I wanted to ask about this before , but it has very naturally now come up . Is you mentioned buying this , this company in Europe , and essentially becoming a global company ? And I am curious because when you talked about visibility , you talked about being able to support like end to end from you know whether it's Shenzhen or whoever in China all the way to you .

Know your doc in Chicago ? Did you know when you were buying the whoever in China ? All the way to your dock in Chicago . Did you know when you were buying the company in Europe that that was kind of what would become essentially a differentiator for you , or what was the initial kind of reason for going to Europe ? Start there .

Um , they had a partnership with uh SMC3 and we were , like you know , learning truckload pretty , pretty quickly . They had a better looking ui than we did , but we certainly had better data and so it's like okay , but now you're kind of into this competitive price sell back and forth . So how can I , how can I really separate ourselves ?

and to me that was europe , because it seemed like the global businesses would be the high ground and so they would have operations in europe and that that seems like the second reason I acquired them is , you know , I'd only been to europe at that point one time in my life . It was like the , it was like the 101 europe traveling .

I went to rome it was italy right with my girlfriend went to rome , I went to mafia coast and like that was my , that was my europe experience .

In the US back then , there was probably about 50 telematics companies , and maybe 10 that mattered , and in Europe , though , this company had 600 telematics companies that were connected to , and I was like whoa , and there's just even different ways that data flows in Europe , and this is a Danish company . It's called Gatehouse . I thought it was really interesting .

I walked in and I had never even been to Denmark and I was like okay , I see , like the engineers , I see the customer success , like have we seen the whole office ? And they're like , yeah , and I'm like , well , where's like where's sales office ? And they're like , yeah , and I'm like , well , where's like where's sales ? And I go , we don't have sales .

And I was like , well , why don't you have , uh , sales ? And they're like , well , we don't like when we call people sometimes and they say no . And so I was like , well , how do you get your business ? And they're like it's just all referral . And I was like can you say that again ? Like how does it work ?

And like I'm looking and they have ds , which is obviously the largest freight forward in the world . Now it wasn't back then , but it was significant that Amazon Europe had always like really high operating . I was like , all right , let's , let's buy this company . I think they were 3 million in ARR .

very nice .

Like one , I'm curious emotionally , what was it like ? Because there's a part of me wonders , like you've , as someone , you and I seem like we have similar stories and that we kind of came up in the industry but didn't have some pedigree like some you know master's degree or something that someone , nobody would look at us and think like these guys could run .

You know billion dollar companies or anything like that . So , like part of me wonders is , your business has continued to grow and you've raised more money . It's like at what point do you feel like this thing is beyond what you know how to deal with ? And is that kind of what you were feeling in 2023 ? Where that's like , oh crap , where am I ?

What are we doing here ?

You're kind of you know you're you know you kind of step out of the way , let them do their job . You're kind of you know you're the logistics guy , subject matter expert . It was really bad advice in hindsight . I mean , those guys blew cash , wasted money , made awful decisions , created huge taxes for the business .

I think you can maybe see some things like that even in a number of businesses . And it was probably about that time , maybe a little less than a year and a half ago .

I remember the Airbnb founder kind of talked about this and I just kind of looked at it and he's like it's all going to be like founder-led and those things started to kind of hit it on me and it's like , all right , I should really get back in the game more . but those feelings back then were like man , what did I do ?

I've got so many customers , like you know , big customers that are counting on me . I've got a lot of families that are counting on me to feed them and for most of my career , like the businesses have been small enough or where I can kind of bend reality if I need to and work really , really hard .

But when you have employees in 40 countries you know , for software we're in 186 countries You've got , you know , the most prestigious investors in the world on your cap table . You got , you know all these things coming out and it's like I just can't go , like work harder , like that's not the answer . So like what , what ? What is the solution ?

How can I approach this differently ? Um , to to grab , to get the business back on track . At the same time , like back then , you're also trying not to operate out of like , say , fear , because that's not gonna help you either . But back then , to be honest , I was kind of scared .

I joke about it now because we're in an awesome spot but it was like , will I be able to ? And you have those self-doubts like , like I didn't graduate from college , uh , I don't have an MBA . Like , am I the person like for for this ? I think .

I think eventually the answer becomes yes , because the more I get involved and when I came back to Chicago and the more I did it , the more I kind of got some of those empty suits out of the way .

Things got better , and so it just goes to show it's like you have to be willing to change , you have to be willing to take advice , you have to have mentors , you have to have , you have to work on yourself , you've got to evolve in major , major ways and you've got to work your ass off .

But , like you know , the limits are often , are often you know what you're willing to change about yourself and and all and all of your daily routines , everything and and how you sleep , when you sleep , how you travel when you travel , who you spend your time with , like everything around .

If you're I think that if you're , if you're willing to put that kind of passion in , I think humans have so much more potential . It's often like social constraints and fear and things that really lock them into set roles in society or outcomes .

My life . Part of it was like I'm going to be fat , like it was just like counterintuitive to everything I've always said Like you need to be sharp , you need to be fit , like and it's like I'm just gonna have to get fat because I'm just gonna have to work 20 hours a day .

And like I'm gonna have to travel on planes and eat shitty food and be on the road 200 days a year . Like I need to go get closer to the customers . I need to go get out of that cheap advice of let people handle it , like I need to go get into it and and then figure it out .

The other thing , too is , um , I didn't get a lot more serious about talent that I'm bringing on to the team and the profile of people and at the executive level and all areas , and I don't need . I had some really great executives . I don't want to put everyone in that bucket in that time , but I'll put some empty suits .

But what I really needed and we have it now is I needed people that were willing to come in and really roll up their sleeves . At the end of the day , we're a startup , we're a frontier technology company . We're doing something no one else in the world has ever done .

We are pushing the boundaries more than anyone , and that requires a certain certain types of people .

Well , I think that's a great transition into now , the decision intelligence platform . So where I first heard about this was on Twitter or X , whatever it's called now . Craig Fuller posted and I'm going to read what he posted and you can tell me . You can take it from there .

But I just got a copy of Project 44's new business plan and it's remarkably ambitious . Jet's long-term vision is to position Project 44 as the operating system for the logistics industry , seamlessly integrating every component and shipment across a shipper's network , all powered by AI .

This vision extends far beyond visibility , which has become a commodity in recent years . P44 , which is the category king in visibility , has faced a tough competitive landscape where companies have realized that simple track and trace is table stakes . They demand more automation . However , the most intriguing aspect isn't the technology itself .

It's how he thinks he can unlock significant growth by going deeper into the transaction layer . Jet envisions P44 becoming a quote managed transportation platform for the top 2,000 global shippers , effectively eliminating the need for contracted logistics providers .

The most exciting feature for me is the shipment negotiation tool , which enables carriers , brokers and forwarders to participate in the P44 execution platform . Here , an AI agent negotiates with carriers on behalf of shippers . Is that the end of it ?

Nope , this feature will drive a significant increase in spot freight , allowing shippers to access lower cost spot rates while working with pre-approved , vetted carriers . I don't think it eliminates the RFP , but it does encourage shippers to explore out options outside of the routing guide when conditions are favorable . Talk to me about this big vision .

He's an excellent entrepreneur , maybe one of the the best at our generation in the , in logistics , um , arguably the most influential person in , in our , in our , in our circle , um , and he kind of he did jump the gun on some of those things .

He started asking a lot about a lot of forward questions and so , you know , through text I kind of answered some of these with him , but so someone probably got a little bit lost in the method on how we were communicating . But we actually thought about you know , should we go to market with being an intelligent operating system ?

And we have those probably capabilities right now , but is it there or there ? And I think what we want to do is really meet the market where the platform is at right now . In a really honest way . We weren't the first to say we were doing AI and kind of this current cohort , but we were certainly doing it before everyone else .

I thought everyone else looked kind of silly out there with , like changing their AI splash messaging and everything , but today we just want to have a much more measured approach and do it once we have really good use cases and outcomes . You know , the shipper market itself doesn't even move that fast .

So why do we need to be on the tip of the spear with a press release ? It's very likely we will become that operating system that the decision intelligence will evolve into that operating system , or well , on that path ? We have an incredible amount of data in our platform that takes the bias out of decision making In our platform .

It takes the bias out of decision-making , and that bias in decision-making often comes down to a couple of things that now , for the first time ever , are going to be quantified , so I can tell you what a carrier's digital score is , which is really important . You know , the shipper's asking Molo for visibility and Molo can't do it .

Well , it's a lot tougher for Molo to win more business and if you can provide great visibility , you might be able to get a higher pricing . So there certainly is value in that we also that digital score .

The second thing is that we know where pretty much all the trucks are at all the time and we know what trucks are performing well in each individual lane . So we can see physical on-time performance better than anyone else in the world . No one else has the data set as big as we do the world . No one else has the data set as big as we do .

And then you can start to sprinkle in other third-party applications like Carrier , assure or Sonar or DAT or whatever it is , to get ideas like market rates and you can build proprietary agents or voice or message or use third parties , and so that becomes a really interesting use case from a platform standpoint , because now you can take quantifiable decisions and start

to help source trucks . Now we have in a lot of our contracts with a lot of our lsps that we're never going to get an mc brokerage authority or nvo or whatever it is , because it's not what we want to do .

But we have customers that come to our platform , our tms platform , and they get rate quotes and they tender and what we can do is we can say , hey , have you considered this carrier ? It might be better for you .

Now what we're doing with that in betas is we're saying , okay , how do we bring in one of our broker customers that's preferred , and after the negotiation is done , after the information's all selected , give it to that broker so they can actually handle the final procedure . We can even execute it .

And that's kind of the gray area that you're still figuring out on the legal side . But on the insurance , on the authority , let the broker take some of that risk . But the broker has essentially no CAC , no cost to acquire a customer .

They don't have any operational costs to do that , and so what we're able to give them is from a dollar amount of smaller revenue , but from a profit margin margin that their broker gross margin percentages that broker has never seen before .

And so this starts to be an interesting thing on , like what is the right way to approach that , and one of the largest , most tech innovative brokers in the world and us are working on this right now . Um , and I think , I think it'll be really interesting .

But the days , uh , I saw our competitor started posting jet says he's gonna put all the brokers out of business or blah , blah , blah it blah .

If you aren't one of our customers , yeah , you've got a headwind there and we'll probably end up getting business sourced away from you and directed towards some of our customers

. The other thing that's in there is that and perhaps it was said out loud and whatever now we'll have to defend it , but if you're just a transactional broker and you think you're going to be in business in 24 months like you are delusional . Uh , so you know , like that's a tape , like you gotta , you have to be way more than just like I got a truck .

What else are you doing ? What are your value adds ? What's the culture of your company ? How are you sourcing clients ? How are you reliable ? Like at Modo , you guys had something . I think it was like you wouldn't bounce loads , and I remember the first company I ever heard of was Coyote . That was such a novel idea whatever 15 years ago .

That's a cultural standpoint . Now you're actually in something much more complicated . You're in a long-term relationship with customers , you probably also are thinking about long-term relationships with carriers more strategically . You also have a hedge that's in your business , so you have a more sophisticated pricing algorithms . Then you have to have more sophisticated .

But if you're just I'm buying a truck , marketing up% and selling it to someone that wants it , like yeah , you're in big trouble in two years . So I don't know .

Like I think I think we could leverage our brand enough to build a business . But like I think you know , just being a broker is going to be , if you're not already an established broker , with all the data and all the carriers and all the customers already you know , really enjoying what you're giving them .

I don't know that in two years there are going to be new brokers that just start up with some really hungry entrepreneur CEO and hiring a bunch of hungry people who will sweat equity their way to the top . I don't know if that's going to be doable . It feels like that opportunity window is actually finally certainly narrowing and maybe even closing .

And maybe , like a good culture , and maybe you can buy a brokerage that has , you know , it's 10 , 25 , 50 million , that has a lot of shipper contracts , but you know that was never able to get good penetration because they bounce loads or something . But , you know , maybe they had something for some time . So I think it's still opportunity .

But if you asked me , hey , let's start a brokerage in two years , a truckload brokerage , I'd be like , what's the point ? Like this is like , you know , like let's go find another way to make a buck .

I guess . One final question is like what do you see as a potential deterrent for achieving this vision of like building this decision intelligence platform into this kind of global solution that really is almost like an end-to-end managed transportation for customers ? Like what ? What would prevent you from achieving that ?

On frontier technologies , there certainly are a lot of incumbents . If you think about our business model , we press against a lot of incumbents , we press against oligopolies , we press against billionaires , we press against establishments , fifth generation businesses , and so there's just a lot of pressures on our specific business model .

But I think we can get through all those with just strong execution . There's no technology limitations . I don't even see like there's no competitor out there . That even like concerns me or bothers me , whether it's a startup , ai company or whatever it is like .

At the end of the day , we are the platform that companies that the largest shippers in the world are using like name .

A company , it's probably the customer , like I guarantee you got our customers phones in your pocket , you've got the shoes on of our customers , you know you're eating , drinking the coffee , you're driving the cars , like all of it , and you say , well , how do you know , I got x and x bonds , like because they're all our customers .

I don't care what brand you have , uh , I don't care what kind of shoes you have , they're all our customers . I I don't care what kind of car you drive , they're all our customers . Um , so you have that mind share and you have that market there . So then how can you bring in this ? You know these , these four steps connect , see , act and then automate .

The only way we can really automate is by and that's . I think maybe that's that managed trans thing that he was talking about is that we can already suggest and take action for customers , and we've been able to do that for some time .

And so I think you picked I think Craig picked up on that and said well , that's like managed trend and it's like , well , if you mean that we're solving problems and creating outcomes for customers , the answer is yes , and we're gonna keep , keep doing it .

I don't think that you know short term , that it really presses against the traditional managed trans companies that a lot of people think of in that statement , but I'll send you a video if you're interested .

It's about three minutes and I think it'll blow your mind what's coming out here in a quarter of what's possible and you'll be like , wow , that's really going to chip into a lot of these transactional guys .

I think you've shared a lot that I maybe I don't know if I didn't , I don't know if I had expectations , but you're on the furthest end of the spectrum in terms of your openness and willingness to share what's going on with your business , the good and bad , and it feels like sometimes I get a lot of the good without people wanting to talk about some of the

challenges . And so I just want to say thank you , because I think this will be , I think people will really enjoy kind of getting to know you better and and learning more about your business , because there's a lot you've shared here today .

I thought , you know what I see Andrew trying to accomplish here is making the industry better and helping other entrepreneurs .

I thought , well , if he's got that platform and he's willing to do it , I want to buy into that today and I want to spend the time helping people , because I certainly have been helped along the way and if we can , help one person with it . I'll take the slack from my PR team , so I appreciate it .