Ep. #33: Charlie Saffro + Brent Orsuga - Lessons from Top Recruiters in Freight

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We look forward to working with you To our listeners . That's it . Let's get the show on the road . Welcome back , welcome back . Welcome back to another episode of the Freak Pod . We're changing things up today . As you're watching on YouTube , you can see I'm not alone . I don't have one guest , I've got two . We're doing a little panel action .

We've got a topic we're going to focus on today and that topic is recruiting . I've got two of the industry's most well-known , finest recruiters in the game joining me today . Welcome to the show Charlie Safro and Brent .

Just give me a bit of your background , kind of your professional career journey and what's gotten you kind of from where you were to here today , not in terms of the meat of like how you did it , but just kind of the steps along the way and tell me a little bit about your business .

Long story short , very small team , when I joined , started to go through a huge growth spurt , needed someone who could help with the interviewing and onboarding , and I raised my hand . This was early 2000 . So I was using Craigslist a lot to recruit , using a lot of those flyers with my name and number at the bottom .

But I got creative , I got scrappy and helped them grow to well over 100 employees in four years . When they sold the business to Internet Truck Stop . Actually , I became a freelance recruiter , had a couple projects and honestly I'm going to say it was opportunity that drove me to create my business . I was not planning to be an entrepreneur .

I didn't go into this with a business plan or a loan . I just saw opportunity and seized it .

And I think we're all that person that it's like we're either going to take this and run with it and do the very best or we're going to walk away before we fail , so I ran with it , which ultimately led to about a year as a solopreneur , and then just got too big to handle it myself and started building a team .

So today we're 14 years old as a company . It's wild to think I've been doing it this long . We've got 30 people on our team , and we focus exclusively in this greater industry .

We work on all roles of all levels not truck drivers , though , and not warehouse folks , but really any salaried position , from an entry level sales rep all the way to that C-suite , and we also offer executive search and consulting services . So that's very high level , but I know we're going to get into all the details .

Very similar to Charlie , you know , I think that my recruiting story goes back to just it's always kind of been in the blood and I look at it like this always recruiting kids in the neighborhood to play sports , always recruiting people to go sell baseball cards in college . It was recruiting hey , where are we going to go this weekend ?

So I feel like you've always kind of had that internally and then implemented it into the business world . So done recruiting for what I say , 22 years actually started in the construction industry .

So back then this is when it was booming in Arizona knew nothing about a superintendent , a project manager , any of these positions , but had a lot of success and was really mentored and groomed by a very , very high performer which set the tone for everything . This was before LinkedIn . This was before personal brands were a thing .

This was like old school , almost like change your voice , pick up the phone and headhunt . So that has carried with me 20 plus years Getting into the industry . It actually started back in 09 . As we know , 08 shifted everything in reality .

Construction went away , and this is when I aligned with Global Trans , and so Andrew and Michael Leto I go back to them to about 2009 . This was my first introduction into the industry , once again , knew nothing , but sat there and learned Freight 101 . The reason the industry spoke to me , though , was because I learned really quick .

Those two industries , specifically , were very similar , being construction and trucking . I hate to say it , but it was kind of a guy's guy , blue collar .

It was very natural for me to be myself you put me in accounting or finance or healthcare might not be as natural , but for me to be myself you put me in accounting or finance or healthcare might not be as natural , but for me it was very fluid .

Fast forward to 2014 , and had a fork in the road moment , had a partnership that ended and sat there , and Charlie will remember she was one of my very first calls of the hey , what do I do now ?

Scenario , and , honestly , andrew , it was that moment in life that I think a lot of people come to is hey , maybe I can go and get a position or I'm gonna bet on myself , and I did bet on myself , but you know it's not everything is set out for you when you go on that entrepreneurial path .

For me , I had a one-year-old daughter Charlie knows this whole story in a bedroom with nothing . There was no business plan , no contracts , no clients which is usually pretty key no candidates , no agreements , literally nothing . But I had a really , really big chip on the shoulder and a massive desire and that was really all I needed . Fast forward now .

We've been around 10 years and , much like Charlie , very niche , specific to the industry . I'll even narrow that down to really replay in three buckets . Number one , I'm going to go old school asset . Number two , a ton in what I'm going to call 3PL brokerage . And then number three , I'm going to kind of call it freight tech and everything else .

I can put TMS , tracking , visibility , factoring , insurance , kind of a lot under that umbrella . But I think between the two of us we have legitimately moved thousands of people over the past decade in the industry .

So I guess the question I have just imagining the way you described starting out , as you know , charlie for both of you , I guess , solopreneurs is you're just on your own , getting ready to find clients , find candidates . What does that look like as you're getting going ? Like , where do you even begin ? How do you get people interested in working with you ?

Do you start on the you know , candidate side ? Do you start on the customer side ? Like , what does that look like ?

hear from Brent . But when I started , my business was around the same time that I put myself on LinkedIn . So I really started my business with a strong candidate network . I had been recruiting in the industry for four years . Yes , I was a corporate recruiter but I had spoken to many people really knew the competitive landscape .

So my goal when I branched out was really to find clients and I was very lucky that my first several clients came to me . They saw me on LinkedIn . I think all of them reached out with the same message like hey , I didn't even know logistics and transportation recruiters existed . Do you know what LTL is ? Do you know how to find terminal managers ?

And honestly , I kind of faked it till I made it . For those first few years . My big turning point , I would say you know personally and professionally was I took a meeting with Brad Jacobs team in 2011 . Very early I think at that time people were calling it Expo Logistics . There was a lot of skepticism like what is this guy going to do ?

And I went into a meeting with their team .

I remember it was like a 6am meeting at a Marriott by O'Hare and I faked it till I made it really good and I walked out of there really with like a job order for 40 , 50 people that I had promised I could deliver on , and that's what really pushed me like , okay , now , very similar to a brokerage , I have the business .

Now I need the recruiters , the operators , and that's when I went out and hired my first employee , who is still with me today , 13 years later . But that was really . It was like I you know the inbound came in and I'm grateful for that .

And then then I started making the efforts and a lot of our business is referrals , which is really very validating in our industry . People come back around if you treat them well and clients are candidates , candidates are clients . Like everyone just gets meshed together but you have to ride those waves . So that's high level about me .

Because I mean people just go from one place to the next , whether it's the same type of company , jumping from being a broker to being a recruiter , being a shipper and everyone in the people business . So I appreciate that comment .

Like 12 years ago , I actually did remember this guy , but the fact that he remembered me he's been in this job the whole time and I was his first reach out , it's like that's where you just drop in breadcrumbs and doing good things and it's the golden rule it will come back .

That was not the case For me , honestly , it was all hands on deck . I honestly I don't want to say I begged for business , but I'll tell you , andrew , I made it very hard for companies to tell me no , because I needed those wins , I needed the opportunities , and I would just tell them look , there's nobody and this was the truth .

There's nobody that's going to work on this stuff more than myself . All I'm looking for is a chance . Give me an opportunity to perform . This is contingent . You have nothing to lose . I'm paid on performance . Let me perform . So you know I was very convincing at the time , but here's the reality .

I worked so hard early on because I'll never forget those first few clients . What you won't see behind me is the very first check that I got in 2014 . I will never forget that . It was $7,500 . It felt like $750,000 , right , because it was the first monumental thing . So I keep that behind me for a reason .

But early on , what I would do is I had to like see who was hiring . Like on LinkedIn , you could see what jobs were out there . I could go on Monster , which was a thing , or Indeed , and then we kind of had to go into like reverse engineer mode Well , who's the hiring manager , who's the sales manager , who's leading this train ?

And then I would proactively reach out to them . Another thing that I think Charlie didn't mention is you know , before we kind of popped our head up and told everyone how great we are , there were years where this was all behind the scenes . This was years of stacked momentum and years and years of just getting wins quietly behind the scenes .

And then we let the market speak for us . Now you have testimonials , now you have people speaking on your behalf , because here's the reality you help one person . You're probably going to help five , because they all know somebody . You become one person you're probably going to help five , because they all know somebody .

You become their person , their guy , their dude , their gal , whatever you want to call it . And then it really started to compound . But for years and years it was outbound , it was head down producing . Then came up the time where the referrals and inbound came .

When they're starting in sales , they have nothing and you're almost playing off of desperation a little bit , and is it possible to make desperation look good ?

It wasn't like , oh my God , my kids can't eat if you don't give me this business . It was that I am so locked into what I do I can provide you a service at such a high level . All I'm looking for is a chance . Give me an opportunity . But here's another mindset thing that I think is equally important .

Nowadays , you have a lot of people wanting to become agents , and I think entrepreneurship , to a degree , honestly , has been over glorified . Everyone thinks it's way easier than it is . I never gave myself a plan B . There was never a . Hey , let me try this and just see if it works .

This was what I was going to do , and so , every single day , I carried myself accordingly . There was no second option . There was no . Let me give this a try and I'll go get a job .

So that confidence came from the fact that I just believed so much in the value that I could bring to these companies , and when you bring value to companies , they will come back more and more than you actually think . So I don't think it's desperation .

I think it was the opposite of the fact that I could bring them something that somebody else couldn't and I could feed them in order for them to feed me .

The parts that people don't see on LinkedIn , that you think back to and are like God , I can't believe I made it through that .

it was not a women-led business . I had men on my executive team and I really stayed on the front line . I , you know , I modeled leadership , but I was recruiting and doing the same job as everyone on my team and when we would create new positions , I would dive in , get my hands dirty , validate it .

So it took me about 10 years to really grow into leadership . I think also I have to give myself a little grace there that I don't have regrets , but I had three kids under four when I started my business

. Who was I to start a business , be a recruiter , be a CEO and really do it all ? And I wasn't and I knew that was not my strength . So I really was a producer and I think , similar to Brent , like I can bet on myself , and so I know that if I was a producer , I would not give up .

If I was working 24 hours , if I worked every weekend , if I had to get on three flights , if I was betting on myself , I was going to drive the business to a point that we could continue to grow and scale . And I really assumed leadership and shifted my responsibilities in 2020 , which was just a crazy year for everyone .

But I'd say the last four years of my career truly working on the business , being strategic , venturing out into other things , have probably been the most fulfilling .

But I think I mean Brent , I think you'll agree , andrew , you'll agree Like it's really hard when you start a business to get your hands out of something you love and you're good at , and that's what the business is . So those were my struggles , but I have come a long way the business is .

And you know , because everything's on the line and you know you can't necessarily just count on everyone else to bring the food to the table , you know you're the head of the table and you know at the end of the day it's your responsibility to make sure that there are customers coming through the door and bringing opportunities to pay everyone salaries , and you

know there's just something fun about doing that too . And I think it speaks to a little bit that it is one way to earn a lot of respect from your team and trust and buy-in is to be there on the ground level doing the work with them . And you know you mentioned , you know your first employee is still with you today .

I bet a lot of that was respect earned from them seeing you do the work .

And that is what keeps me up is when I hear of a situation or I have a sense that somebody isn't fully fulfilled or satisfied that I want on our team .

I remember I would walk in and it was in the back left corner , I think second row is where you sat at . You'll probably remember this and I'm like wow , this guy is like where's your office ?

And he goes this is it , and it was just a desk , like it wasn't some glorified , you know , a corner window with all these windows and everything , and I think that you know we'll tap into that . But that's where you even yourself bought a got . A lot of that buy-in is because you've led from the front .

I always compare it to Michael Jordan the last dance , right . I wouldn't ask people to do something I wouldn't do myself , and I think that's an underrated skill when it comes to leadership . But to answer your question about some of the stuff you don't see on LinkedIn , you know , look social media , instagram , whatever you want to call it , it's a highlight reel .

People show you what they want to see and they're going to show you usually all the good Early on . For me , I think one of the biggest skills I had to learn and a word that I live by still is a word called equanimity . I've learned this equanimity . It means to kind of maintain calm when there's duress , and what I mean by that is emotional .

Regulation was huge for me . I used to get really high when things were rocking and rolling and I had massive months and all these placements that can flip overnight . And then you'll have the next month and you're like holy smokes , what just happened ? And then you can get really down in the dumps and have to be able to balance that .

So what a lot of people don't see too is , yes , we may be the faces , but guess what ? It's really hard to come home at five o'clock and not wear that . I have two small little girls . I have a wife . You know Charlie has her three sons . It's hard to mask that and I don't think that that's what a lot of people show in the real world .

Is that you know , hey , we can be these high performers from seven to four , seven to five . It's not like your phone shuts off , it's not like the day just comes to a halt and all of a sudden I'm playing Barbies , right ? It's a really hard dynamic that not a lot of people talk about . But I'll tell you , learning how to balance emotions be even keeled .

Nowadays I don't get too high , I don't get too low and I just trust the process , and it changed everything for me .

Because this is a problem I've had and I struggle with the term leader and I've posted on LinkedIn a lot in my day and I've had people comment like You're such a great leader and like it doesn't sit right with me because I don't think in totality I would call myself a great leader , and I think that there are times where I have demonstrated great leadership

and there are times where I've demonstrated awful leadership or whatever . The opposite of that is is just poor management , and it almost always ties to emotional regulation and being able to manage your emotions when times get tough or when things happen that you don't expect .

That was far and away my biggest challenge as an organizational leader , so I would be curious if you , or either of you , could speak to ways in which you have developed that skill , because that's a challenge for a lot of people .

You're always , I'm always personally going to be the first one in the last one to go . You're going to see me kind of run into the fire . I'm going to show you what it takes to win at a very , very high level . You know , you have to realize not everybody is you and that has been still , to this day , very challenging for me , brent not everybody is you .

They're not wired like you . They're not all gas , no brakes , all the time , and that's okay , right . Understanding the wants and needs of people is very important . What I want might not be what they want . So are you asking questions ?

Because when you learn as much as possible about the individual , what drives them , what ticks them , what gets them out of bed , honestly , you will develop a skill set of how to lead and manage and communicate with them , because it's about what they want and , as a leader , your goal is solely to help them achieve what they want , not what we want .

People will stay with you for as long as they know that their dreams , goals and aspirations can fit under your umbrella . When that comes to a halt is when Charlie and I take them out . That's the reality . So you have to ask how much do you truly know your people and what they want ?

There may be times where , honestly , I'll go and put on a rap song , I'll go and put on a less brown motivational clip , eric Thomas , something to shift the industry very quick . So I have a lot of self-awareness now when I'm off , because the last thing I want to do is sit there and mope and cry and dwell .

And I've gotten the ability to shift really quick .

And for those first 10 years I got really thick skin . I was negotiating with clients and candidates and all the frustrations that come with it , and I let my emotions kind of go to the side . Those stay in the personal bucket . And then when I turn on my professional self , I turn on my professional self like I'm ready to go .

And when I became a leader , I first I leaned into these feminine traits that I have and I realized that that was the secret to retaining my people . I care like that's it and that's saying that men don't have these traits , but it is often frowned upon . In our rough and tough industry . We don't talk about emotions a lot .

We don't always put ourselves in other people's shoes , we don't always care about a human behind a job title . But when I started leading , I read a book called Rocket Fuel . I don't know if either of you have ever read it , but it really distinguishes that there's two types of leaders .

There is a visionary leader and an integrator , and in order for a company to be successful , you generally need both to scale . It's very rare that a single person has the qualities of both a visionary and an integrator .

And I realized I'm a visionary and like I am living in the clouds half the time and I'm not going to fault myself for that Like that's where my ideas come from . I wake up in the middle of the night and write myself a text because I have like the next best idea . But I'm not an executor .

Early in my career I was , but what I did to solve that was I brought in team members who could support me there . A lot of my team members are very strong integrators . I can stay in my position and throw out ideas all day that they'll put in the parking lot and maybe or maybe

not revisit . But it allows me to be emotional and I would say honestly I'm probably the most emotional as a leader than I've ever been , because I've just given myself permission , I think . Where that puts me maybe the opposite is like I have a really hard time with logical decisions .

Sometimes If we have to eliminate someone on our team , like I have a connection to them . My heart is louder than my brain sometimes . But again , I found my place as a leader . I'm not good at everything . I'm not good at laundry , I'm not good at loading the dishwasher or firing people , so no , but it's really .

I've just built a leadership team to support my weaknesses so I can shine in my strengths , and it took a long time for me to get there . But I really think now I'm like I can be emotional , I can be myself , and I don't think I realized for many years that I was just . I was Jekyll and Hyde , you know .

I came to work as one version of myself and then I went to the basketball game as the next version and now like I'm truly just whole . So I gave myself permission to have emotions and I actually think our industry needs a lot more of it .

So what's happening a lot out there is you have a lot of leaders who almost make decisions with their heart . Oh , I don't want to let this person go that they've really been loyal to me , they're a good person and that can actually hurt you as well , because you're holding on to people which may not even be setting them up to win .

So you can see , this is a really big thing . That I think a lot of people struggle with is finding that balance of , again , the intensity and like the visionary type thing . But what Charlie's saying and goes back into like the EOS framework , is that integrator and having that empathy .

If you put Charlie and I into one body , I think we'd be the most dynamic person there is Right . So anybody that can find that balance will be real dangerous .

I , I mean , I couldn't help but envision myself and a lot of what you were describing about yourself and and you know I was unfamiliar with the visionary verse integrator concept from from that book , but it does remind me a lot of the relationship I had with my partner , matt bogrich because , um , we wouldn't have worked well without each other , but with each

other it was like it couldn't have gone better . And I think it's understanding , as you mentioned , understanding your strengths and weaknesses and then being able to fill the gap on the weaknesses with people on a team that can step in and do that stuff , because execution was not my strong suit or follow-through .

I had very low follow through but a lot of ideas and could jump in here and there and execute for a few days on something , but needed someone to kind of pick up the pieces of what I left in my wake . So I definitely resonate there . Now we're supposed to be talking about recruiting , but I love what we just spent all this time on .

I'm going to try to segue in a way that makes sense and isn't choppy . So let's talk about kind of how you think about the companies you partner with from a leadership standpoint and at the end of the day , you are both an extension of the brand of the company you represent and they are an extension of your brand , right ?

So if you place a candidate with a company that has very poor leadership , with with no empathy for their employees and you know bad practices , that makes you look bad , so I'm curious how you think about that . In partnering with companies , are you looking at leadership ? Are you looking at the way that they engage their employees ?

What are the things that you are looking at as you go into an engagement like that ? And let's start with Brent this time ?

You know , a big thing for me over the last decade is I've actually , on my own dime , gone and visited a lot of these companies and I'm actually looking for things visually that I'm going to see . What is the environment ? Right ? Culture is very hard to explain , very hard to see . You've got to feel it , almost Right . So I'm even looking for .

What am I using as my senses seeing , touching , smell , taste here when I walk into that environment ? Because is it a loud room ? Is it a quiet room ? Is this a place where people are not dressed at a professional level that I would agree with ? So the more that we can unpack it , I think the better .

But absolutely because I still believe any company is only going to go as far as the leadership is going to take it , and when we're helping people make career transitions , I've always taken the mindset of where can I place you ? Where there's going to be a runway for three to five years . That , to me , is a career , not a job .

I don't want to help you go sideways . So in order to find a company where there's going to be growth and trajectory , you really have to understand how they're built , what their vision is , are Are nowadays , look , are they financial , healthy ? That's a thing now , right . How long have people been there ? Is it a chop and shop ? Is it a turn and burn ?

Are they looking for books of business ? How quickly can someone maneuver here ? What does the model look like ? Andrew , there's more questions than I think . More people don't understand that we ask than anything . So this is a really important topic that now , 10 years ago , charlie , it might have been a different conversation right , we had a needed business .

We look back on some of the logos maybe we worked with now . Now we're in a position where we can be picky and we are , because when we talk to a candidate , we want to know that that trust and rapport is there , that we've done our due diligence and vetted them .

It's a client in a search that we are working on because somebody was promoted or because they're growing and adding a new division or they need an SME in an area so they can expand , and those are the clients we try to partner with . Now it's a unique position that we're in because it's a lot of he said , she said .

Our client at the end of the day is the hiring company .

I kind of have a fool me once rule in a lot of situations where if there's word on the street about a company and you have to remember we're hearing so much from these candidates too , so we may talk to candidates and hear about a poor experience at a company and six months later that company calls to work with us , we need to vet them ourselves .

But I'm kind of going into it almost like imagining their glass door page and listening to what others have said , knowing that I have to sell that opportunity . And it's not only do I not want to place someone there , like Brent said , it's not in line with our company values .

And so that's what we go back to a lot with our clients , like we have one value that's do what's right , and that is a value that we think about a lot . And it's like you , that's do what's right and that is a value that we think about a lot .

And it's like do what's right for the client , do what's right for the candidate , or do what's right for the CS recruiting employee . And I have to consider all angles .

I'll tell you , there was a situation there's been several of these , but one specifically where I visited a client's office and I just felt really uncomfortable as a woman and he made several comments in the hour and was kind of here's 20 jobs you could work on , but I want to take you for a drink first , kind of situation . And that was the fool me .

Once we broke up with that client , I did not want to place women there , I did not want to place anyone there , but I had to learn that I had to be there , I had to experience it .

And so , yeah , sometimes it's anecdotal and hearsay and from you know candidates or potentially clients that tell us their former horror stories , or sometimes they're telling us about a great company and then that's a company I want to target because I want to work with .

So it's really an interesting position as a recruiter because we get the dirt from both sides and then you have to really figure out , like you know , what's the truth and what do we want to do based on our observations .

stuff here . How do you think about the concept of Glassdoor ?

It's less about us , it's more about these candidates and that is their source . But again , like I mean , there's Glassdoor reviews on our company . That is not even our CS recruiting . There's another CS recruiting and anyone can go on there and make any comments . So you have to take it with a grain of salt and companies pay people to make good comments .

So it's just like all the other smoke and mirrors . You have to look past and figure out what you care about .

We're one phone call or text away from getting intel on almost anybody and that is a scary thing that people don't underestimate . One of my favorite things was by Nick Saban , when he was talking about players that go into the NFL draft and he said look , people are going to talk to you and say one of two things they're going to say and or but .

And say one of two things they're going to say and or but . You want them to say and Charlie is a hustler , she's an entrepreneur and she's a great mother and she's a yogi and all these things . Right , she's very passionate .

Thanks guys , the last thing , you want them to say is but she's great , but she's a little shady , but she kind of does this , and that People have got to think about how they would be labeled within the industry . Are people saying and or but around you , because I guarantee at some point that text is going to come our way .

What is going on ? And then I start to dig into the call notes and it was comments from entry-level carrier reps who were saying like yeah , I saw a lot of guys with suits in our office and now I'm wondering what's going on . And now I'm starting to , you know , not know if I'm going to have a job . And we didn't know what was going on .

They didn't know what was going on . But I went home that night and I was like something is happening with Coyote , like this is not normal for us to talk to all these people and they're all saying the same thing , but different , and everyone's confused . And then , like two days later , the acquisition was announced , and so that's just like an example .

And you know , andrew , I'll tell you we couldn't even do anything with those employees because they had not competed . So we respected that . But the point is like we get this information so randomly and then it's our decision like , what do I do with this ?

In that situation we didn't do much with it , but in others we really can learn and make an analysis and form a hypothesis and , you know , behave a different way .

You know someone could try to simplify the job to you know , a broker of talent and you know you're making phone calls on both sides and that's the value . So my question that I would like you to answer is how do you stand out , how do you provide value ?

And I think one of the answers clearly is now a decade plus of relationships built where you have a lot of information that I wouldn't have if I was just a broker trying to hire some people . But we'd love to hear some more on that topic . Whoever wants to go first ?

When you're using a recruiter , there is a fee associated with that person's head . A company is not only making a hire , making a bet , but they're , in theory , betting on you to the point where they're actually paying out to get you . So when we have that mindset I'm not going to now show average , I'm not going to show mediocrity .

Charlie and I both know this there's a lot of misconception that we help people find jobs . We don't . We are brought in by these companies to find something that their internal team maybe couldn't find .

Because here's the secret sauce that Charlie and I have when you send an email , whether it be from Coyote , molo , mastery , whatever , there's no mystery card , a candidate , right then , and there can make the assumption , if I want to talk to this company , right , because they already know who's reaching them out .

When they get an email from Pinnacle or CS , they have no idea what direction that we're going to take them . That is where we kind of hold the power is in that . So for that we have to play at a premium .

And again , going back to you know your initial question in our world we are only as good as the logos that we represent and the people that we take to the market . The market will speak on your behalf when you deliver it at very , very high level product . So I think Charlie and I both have a lot of integrity and passion for doing such .

Yeah , and I mean , just on that same note , I think , brent and I , having both been corporate recruiters and probably also having seen a lot of our clients that we work with them when they're in startup mode , I always know there's going to be a point where I might even help them find the recruiters that are going to replace our team .

We still probably will be called in for a niche search here and there , but we always know our clients will outgrow us at some point , except for those niche searches .

But I think you know , to me it's like when I was recruiting as a corporate recruiter , I usually had , you know , a few opportunities , but the same company , the same culture , the same leadership , the same benefits . If it wasn't a match , there was nothing else I could do for that person .

No matter how talented they were , I wasn't going to force them into our company . The beauty of being a third party external recruiter is we have a portfolio , just like you have a portfolio of carriers .

We can choose which companies we share with them based on their needs , their must-haves , their nice-to-haves , and that's really what I think has made us so successful is the breadth of companies we work with and the breadth of candidates that we represent , helping carrier sales reps get onto the shipper side as a load planner , or somebody from a brokerage move into

asset or vice versa , and I think that's a value that an external recruiter can only provide , because we are literally matchmaking with lots of options on both sides , versus , you know , fitting a whatever , a square peg into a round hole , like we did as internal recruiters .

They're trying to pitch somebody on something they don't really know a lot about . And , number two , they're telling them the perfect candidate . They're coming from the wrong angle . They're trying to pitch before they even ask questions where , charlie and I , we may slow down a little bit and just assess what I can . I can take this call 10 different ways .

What do you want when ? What are you desiring ? What is your career trajectory ? And let's reverse engineering it . Having that relationship with someone like us who can strategically work with you is a very , very important relationship that you have to have within this industry very important relationship that you have to have within this industry .

You don't have a bunch of options to take people the first few years and you're got to do the whole kind of fake it till you make it thing where it's like I've only got one company that's paying me to recruit right now , so I've got to bring you to this company .

You're not necessarily saying that so directly , but it's just like starter brokerage where it's like , listen , man , I've only got four customers , 10 Ramey loads , Please take one of these loads . But then as you get to be where Molo was six years in and you've got $600 million of revenue , it's like I've got thousands of opportunities for you .

Like we can actually support you in a way deeper way than I could have five years

ago . I don't know why I just am thinking of that .

But a lot of firms are cradle to grave . But it's the same growth model where you're scaling and you have to make that decision Like do I want people who can do it all , or real experts that can continue to grow in their vertical ? It's so ironically similar to a brokerage . It just happens to be the space we recruit in .

What are some things that all candidates absolutely should be doing in their interview process , and also some things that they absolutely should not be doing ?

I can be checked in or checked out within 20 seconds of talking to somebody . Real talk , okay . You have to be able to explain your career journey and story . Why did you make these transitions ? What is my personal narrative ? What did I do here ? Right ? So many people are just choppy . They just want to send a resume .

That is something that , if I was a candidate , I would be practicing . That is something that , if I was a candidate , I would be practicing . I would be explaining exactly what my role was . Excuse me , what I've been exposed to . Stats and numbers still are important .

I would explain every transition , good or bad , and I would honestly , andrew and Charlie , have some accountability . It's not always the company's fault . It's not always blaming the market . It's okay to be like . You know what I made this move . It really didn't align with me .

I probably didn't bring my best value to that seat and I learned a lot from it and that's what I'm looking to bring to the next organization . Companies will respect that a lot more than my manager was never attentive . The pricing was terrible , they had a terrible tech stack . No one wants to hear that your ability to stay positive is going to dictate that .

Call . The minute you become a finger pointer , I'm done , I'm checked out , because I'm not going to then hand deliver you to another company that you're just going to blame when six months down the road you're not producing . Stay positive , focus and practice on your ability to interview and you will see how that transfers over .

Because what he cares about is those soft skills , like the respect . Are they punctual , Are they self-aware ? And so that's probably my advice . I think everything Brent said I fully agree with . But be prepared . And part of the preparation is understanding the company , the role , the people you're meeting with , if you have that information in advance .

But it's also be prepared to sell yourself , the people you're meeting with , if you have that information in advance . But it's also be prepared to sell yourself . And I think it's safe to say that we're moving towards more of the skills-based hiring . And selling yourself is not I was a freight broker at your competitor .

It's I can show up and I am strategic and I'm analytical and I know how to build relationships and I've been trained to cold call , and it's that combination of you know , hard skills , certifications , tactical training , but then also , like I want to know who you are as a person ? Are you going to be an addition to our culture ?

Are we going to have good chemistry ? And so that's my advice , probably for job seekers right now is to really know what you're good at and lean into it .

There's people that can sneak into any of those companies and it doesn't mean their skills are going to be transferable . So I actually mean their skills are going to be transferable . So I actually think that can be a negative which we can maybe even dive into this . If somebody's at one place too long , honestly they can kind of become a one-trick pony .

I personally and I think charlie may agree with me I'm more attracted to somebody who has reinvented themselves a couple times with their in their career , because it shows me that they again have transferable skills . You do that a couple times within your career . You're actually more valuable than just kind of being somebody who's been at one place for 20 years .

One is , you know Brent's comment on knowing the numbers , knowing your numbers . It could be because I'm a math guy . Math is my strongest . I don't know school subject , so to speak , so I'm always thinking about that stuff .

But when I hear someone tell me their numbers , or I see their numbers on their resume and I ask them about it , I'm doing the math in my head or I'm looking it up as soon as I can to be like does this job ? Like this guy said , he was moving 50 loads a day and doing x amount in margin and revenue .

And I'm comparing that to my team and thinking , okay , this guy would have been the far and away best salesperson on his team . His company supposedly did 30 million in in revenue . It doesn't really make sense what he's saying and there are little dots you can connect to figure that out . So I definitely reiterate that .

And then I also think there's an element to standing out , and I don't necessarily know if this is going to , if my example is going to be perfect here , but there's a guy who I hired and he I honestly hired him because he used the F word .

It was a little bit of a crazy situation where I interviewed him for five or 10 minutes and I was looking at his resume as we were sitting there talking and he was I don't know if I'm gonna say this , but a pharmacology major . He was studying to be a pharmacist and I had been very casual and I accidentally said the F word first .

But I was like hey , you were studying to be a pharmacist . Like what , the ? What are you doing in a brokerage ? And he looked at me and he goes I just want to make fucking money , yeah . And I was like that's , we're good , let's do this . He , he ended up being the number one carrier rep at Molo for the next three years .

So I don't know if that's mirroring , where you pick up on how the interviewer is communicating their body language , things they say , or it's a little bit of kind of having some brass , whatever to just kind of be that forward and say something like that Listen , I'm here to make money .

Man Like that , just for me , was one of my favorite interview situations and I love that . The result three years later is he was the top producer in our in our business . I don't know if you have anything to add to that or thoughts there .

How many companies are peeling back the layers to ask these questions Now you have to follow HR guidelines , but there's questions that you can ask . It's not always about load count and GP and what account did you turn on . It's not about that . It's about the human being . I know Charlie's big component of this , but the human back in human resources , right ?

One of the best questions I love to ask is tell me what you do at 5 am and 7 pm . I'm just trying to find out how someone's built . Are you a morning workout person ? Are you watching Netflix at night ? Just walk me through kind of a day in the life . What does a weekend look like to you ?

Well , I'm spending a lot of time with my children and my family and I'm very passionate about that . I just want to understand how somebody is wired right . Here's a great question too . When was the last time you competed ? That can mean so many different things for Charlie . It could have been a yoga competition , if there's such a thing .

Andrew , you probably competed this morning in pickleball . Well , I had this really big race that I was . I just want to understand if somebody has that wiring inside of them because , again , you can't buy it , fake it or inject it , and those again are reasons to win . This is exactly what you just tapped into .

Reject it , and those again are reasons to win this is exactly what you just tapped into .

He was our second guest in episode two , but there were two things we got from him and Brent , you just reminded me of this , but he said I was always looking for people with a PhD poor hungry and driven . I love that .

He also said when he would interview people you guys can't see this or hear it , obviously for the audience , but right now I'm a leg shaker , my legs always bounce , and he's like when I interviewed people whose legs were bouncing , I always hired them Because it just meant they couldn't turn it off , they couldn't stop , they were always going and that just works .

This doesn't work in every industry . That doesn't work in banking , but it does work in brokerage . I mean , you want people who want to go , go , go , go . So I don't know . Everybody's got their own little things that they look for in hiring and I think this is just really helpful insight you've both shared here .

And at first I was like , oh my God , what business am I in ? But I'm not going to validate it , but we all know what they meant . Like they were the kid in high school that was everyone's source . They never got caught . They had their vendors , they were negotiating Like wait , they really do have the skills .

Now you know there's a whole other side to that . But , brent , I love the two questions you said and I think that is the magic of a great interviewer . Is like having that one question that you know what you're looking for and it's a little bit of an off question .

We have a client who notoriously asks what's your favorite day of the week and he tells us like we're not prepping the candidates and telling them that but Friday , saturday , sunday , sunday wrong answer Monday you're lying . Tuesday , wednesday , thursday , then we'll keep moving on with this interview .

So I don't know if I fully agree with that , but it's an interesting concept and it's really how do you get to the core of someone without just asking them what drives them ?

, though , see . This is what drives me nuts about the job market . A lot of companies are just trying to fill seats oh , my goodness , jessica left so all of a sudden we need somebody .

That is different than actually being able to hire the best people , especially if they're always hiring , which we can get into , but the worst thing you can do is only hire when somebody leaves , because now I'm in a rush , now I'm just trying to fill a seat , I'm dodging corners . It's more skill-based than actually finding out about the human , andrew .

I want to mention one other thing , too , when we talked about interviewing . Everyone has seen me post time kills all deals . It is a very real thing In 2024 , you cannot expect to drag people along through weeks and weeks of interviews and keep them engaged . The people that move at a pace are the ones that are going to win .

What you don't understand is these candidates are paying attention to that . How you do one thing is how you do everything If you have the ability to make quick decisions , have the ability to have a formalized process , which most don't .

That is something , as a candidate , I'm paying attention to , because , all of a sudden , what happens if I bring a contract , I bring a shipper , I bring all these things that I need done ? Is that the pace of the organization ? Pay attention to all these things too .

A few of these questions you think about is there's got to be nuance in all of this , because you know what is your favorite day of the week .

I mean , my favorite day of the week is probably Saturday , and that doesn't mean I won't bust my ass Monday through Friday , and so it's like I think it's understanding the why behind people's answers and you know , if some , if someone asks you that question , what's your favorite day of the week ?

You shouldn't just say Saturday , or you shouldn't just say Wednesday . It should be Listen , I bust my ass Monday through Friday so that I can live the Saturday I want . We're renting a boat this Saturday and I can pay for that because I busted my ass Monday through Friday . I'm golfing Saturday because I love competing at golf .

I want to have my best score ever this weekend . It never happens , but I'm going to try anyways . And then , similarly , brent , to kind of like what are you doing at 7 o'clock ? Netflix is not an answer that's going to get someone excited , but if there's a way you can explain it in a way that's like listen , I need to be able .

I go so hard during the day . I need to be able to check out . I don't want to think , I don't want to have any thoughts . At seven o'clock I'm going to turn on the TV and watch love is blind and watch these fools fake , fall in love , so they go from 50 followers to a thousand . Um , but I don't want to think , I to think .

I need to be able to turn my brain off . So my point in bringing this up is just to say that , like for people who are interviewing like you , are going to get weird questions and there's a reason people are asking them .

But just make sure you understand why you're answering the way you are , give context , give detail and explain in a way that shows the benefit of who you are , even if your answer is you know you watched Love is Blind at seven o'clock .

For companies , like , as they're thinking about candidates that they want to hire , what are the trends that you're seeing in the industry right now , like , what are the things that they are looking for ? I mean , you know we've been in this down market now for a year and a half or longer .

I don't know how long it's been now at this point , but it's longer than I've been out of the game . Tell me what you're hearing from your clients in terms of what they're looking for .

But it's the ability to find true hunters , right People that can actually generate revenue , turn on new logos I'll even say this , andrew there's to me , what I'm seeing is a demand more like almost small to midsize type companies based hits momentum and win Even the enterprise and big logos all of a sudden aren't that attractive .

We've seen a massive shift for like sales positions , for sure , I'm gonna say the carrier and account management . I really and Charlie and I were texting about this maybe a month ago hey , what are you seeing ?

Because the minute I see those phone calls come in , it actually screams health to me , that the actual there is health within an organization , because now those operational roles are in demand . So that's something that even in our seat we pay attention to .

I will say this , and we talked about this briefly this is what a lot of people maybe aren't talking about . A lot of the hiring that we're doing is confidential , behind the scenes upgrades . A lot of hiring right now is not . Hey , we're in hyper growth mode . We're adding all these seats , we're building this new branch . We're not there .

People and companies , now more than ever , are reviewing everything they have , maximizing the people in those seats and trying to maximize those dollars . So we're doing upgrades that people would never even know about . That again , is the power in the relationship with us .

Maybe they're not desperate , they just want , you know , more revenue . But I know Brent and I both offer contingent recruiting policies , so it's like why not get this person and give them a short leash ? I think where the real flaw is is going back to the interviews too .

It's the expectations and really on the hiring side there are a lot of very skewed expectations . It's not , you know , 1999 backhaulers where you can say I want to hire someone and I want to see 20 loads on the board on Friday of week one .

And that's really disappointing right now is like companies are hiring I don't want to say with the wrong intentions , but all they want is a book of business . No , I compete . They don't really care about the human or what they're capable of and what else they can do , and that's not fun for Brent and I . It's a waste of money for them .

It's a bad reputation now in the market , like there are so many repercussions to having that model . There are so many repercussions to having that model . The other trend I just want to mention , because it's very hopeful right now , is we just started seeing more on the shipper side or , like the 3PL side , warehouse management roles .

So again , we're not recruiting at the seasonal or temp level , but supervisors , managers , even director of warehouse operations , and I think it's a result of , you know , people are buying again , companies are manufacturing again and distributing . So that's hopeful for us that we've seen this spike in warehouse talent demand . But yeah , brokerage is pretty typical .

It's a lot of sales or that odd vacancy that they need to fill sales or that odd vacancy that they need to fill .

It's not the other way around , because we're just serving what the market needs and so it absolutely impacts our business .

It just all goes back to supply and demand and consumer behavior . But yes , the freight brokerage , we are measuring your pulse to manage our forecasting .

So even as you are interviewing , you want to make sure that you can clearly articulate exactly what it is you do , because I hate to say this , but there's not a lot of creativity right now . Charlie , I guarantee you get phone calls from brokers that want to go to the tech side . Well , guess what ?

The way the market is right now , the tech guys aren't really needing that . It's not a desire of theirs . They need , again , andrew , plug and play Somebody who's currently doing it and is just going to change the jersey . That's a very big trend that we're seeing right now too . Yeah , go ahead .

Know , the demand for talent isn't anywhere near where it should be in a typical year , and the term that I read was it is a white collar recession and that just like struck me . I was like , oh my God , I would never say that and you know , describe that or put that in writing . But that is exactly what this country is seeing is there ?

There is a recession with white collar talent and companies aren't hiring as much of that . It's a riskier , long-term , strategic hire versus when we're talking about temp and that blue collar talent . So I don't know .

They're companies , not people , but companies were very fat , and we're now at a place where everyone's looking to trim and do more with less , and so not only are they certainly not hiring , but they're laying off more , and you have people who got to some fairly lucrative I mean the jumping around that happened for a few years where people could get another 10

grand here , another 10 grand there , another 10 grand there . All of a sudden , all these companies have these bloated salaries that two years later , as the market goes the other way , they can't afford anymore , and so I definitely think you're seeing some of that , and even companies who are doing replacement just to pay 30 grand less on the salary .

They go to resign and their current company says stay , we'll match their salary or we'll promote you to their title . We just need you to stay . And what's weird about it is we see this a lot in like a great resignation , because these candidates have so many options and they can leverage one offer to get more in another .

But we're seeing it now because the people left that are employed are the most valuable people in a lot of these companies and so if those people are out there interviewing , those companies are going to hang on as tightly as they can because they're thinking if this guy leaves or this girl leaves , then we have to go get a recruiter or put another recruiting

project on the board and spend money and lose money and time . So that's , brent , are you seeing that at all ? Because it's very odd to happen in this market , but it's just an indicator that the best talent is probably employed and employers are holding on very tightly

.

When you take what I'm going to call that short money , it's easy , it's comfortable , you're staying put , charlie . You can't renegotiate for 18 months , because for the next 18 months they're going to throw that in your face . Well , we stepped up , we gave you this , we gave you that . You're shooting yourself in the foot as far as that goes .

Counter offers are a hard no to me . And what you don't realize is now you've burned bridges with not only somebody like us , but that company you just met with . And when we talk again about the text messages behind the scenes , this stuff hits the streets and not everyone's conscious of it .

Or is every person should just have their own best interest because they have a family to feed ? And if I'm getting 80 grand today and someone offers me 90 for the same job , I should just take it Like I just the concept , because I , as someone who built a business and hired a thousand people , I wanted to believe in loyalty and that I felt like we did .

We tried to do the best job possible to put our people in a position to win , to take care of them , to create a great environment for them , and so we wanted some level of loyalty . But , in the same regard , people got to make the decisions that are best for themselves and for their families .

And if there was a job that someone could get that paid them more than I was willing to pay them , I didn't stop them or try to stop them If I thought they could make more money with us over time and I thought maybe they were making a decision that I thought was not wise because of X , y or Z or what happened a lot , was I would tell them I know

that company and I know they're not good and I know you're going to regret going there . That happened a lot . The grass is not usually greener in our case , but just talk a little bit about that concept and how people should think about that loyalty .

So my , what I would want to do , andrew , is I would want to be able to look at you man to man and be like Andrew . This is kind of where I want to be in three years . How realistic is that ? Here there's no right or wrong answer . I'm just very curious .

If I'm a high performer , I'm going to be able to have that high level conversation with you , right then , and there my assessment can then be made . I respect it . I hear you I may have to go explore other options . See , I can't do that when I'm an average Joe .

So what I need to do first and foremost is put my head down and produce and get selfish with my production before I get selfish with where am I going to be in three years ? I ?

Like that's really crazy that we have people 13 years and five years averaging out to seven years of average tenure . But it's also what you said , andrew it's the grass ain't greener . And we've had four employees over the years that have returned to us after leaving for a higher paying job .

That's the emotional leader in me that I bring them back because they were great employees . They left on good terms , we were open and honest about what they were going to pursue , but they all came back and we employed them again , and so I think candidates need to think about what's valuable to you . What's your number one priority ?

Is it time , money , respect , benefits , flexibility ? There's so much there that I know we may not always offer the best salary . We're a small company but we are doing everything else in our power to satisfy our employees and make this at least the best job they can have at this point in their career .

So I think there is something to be said about loyalty , and when I look at all these individuals on our team . Many of them have been in several positions with us , so they're not stagnant in their career , they're not only doing one thing . We've made it a two-way conversation .

When they want to evolve , we work with them , we create job descriptions , we look at gaps in the business together and that's how we've had loyalty and retention is we meet them where they are . But it's a tricky subject because I want know , I want loyalty from my employees . But if they looked at me , they're , you know , an at-will employee .

So you really need to have that foundation of trust because we can both say , yeah , we're not going to cheat on you , but you know , it's just like a relationship sometimes , like it really is .

So all of a sudden , Charlie and I have hundreds of stories of somebody who is the golden child and within 24 hours they are public enemy number one .

I'm coming at you , I'm sending these legal letters , I'm going to show up at your kid's school and take them and all this really aggressive stuff right , and that is now your identity and reputation within the market . Who's going to want to join that company ? Now things happen .

We're not naive to that , but I don't think companies understand again how important that exit , transition whatever you want to call it is from a reputation dynamic .

I have at least five people that that quit and we rehired them and I love telling them as they're on their way out , like I really think this is a bad idea because I know this company and I know , what may happen , and you know I love them coming back and maybe part of that was the ego and being able to say I told you so , but that ripple effect too ,

is so underrated because they're coming back and all of their former , now current colleagues again just saw that .

But I love when I give them an opportunity to interview someone new for our team , like their excitement . They're here for a reason and they know .

I mean something we talked earlier , how it's a small industry and these relationships always come back in one way or another .

I think I've written something like 25 letters of recommendation now at this point for people either who quit and left and then they didn't like where they were and they were trying to do something else , or people who we fired , and we fired them because maybe they weren't a good fit for one reason , but it didn't mean I wouldn't be willing to help them try to

get another job doing something different . I tried never to be in a position where I was lying in doing so , but , like for me , even though I'm not there anymore , I've written a couple letters of recommendation and it's like I may not be running a business today , but I expect to be doing so again .

Hopefully it's in brokerage one day , but I'd love to be able to hire some of these people again , and I think how you carry yourself through those situations drives whether or not people are going to want to come work with you again .

Let me tell you this is the real stuff that people don't understand . Play nice , play nice , it hits the streets , yeah .

It's one of these I always thought that we stood out for at least in my mind from some of our competitors was like we weren't trying to do that and we believed in an actual training program and that , like , at the end of the day , like I , you know , if you came over and your customers wanted to continue to work with you here , that's great .

I mean , it speaks volumes to the work you do and how you execute . But , like I always thought it was , such a cheap approach to doing business in this industry is just trying to buy talent with the book of business . Basically , hey , if you don't have that book of business , you're out of here .

How do you navigate that in your role ? And when you come across those situations , what are you telling the companies that are asking that of you ? How do you think about that ?

Are you hiring me for the playbook or hiring me as the player right ? Here's the other thing too . This is where candidates get themselves in trouble , andrew . They over-promise and under-deliver . I think a lot of people unfortunately think their relationships are a lot deeper than they are , and you may have a person at a shipper , but guess what ?

That person may have somebody above them as well . And what we're seeing in the last 18 months is a lot of shippers are actually almost reverse consolidation . Hey , we've worked with 80 brokers . We're actually getting that down to 30 . I would love to help you out , brother , and I would love to give you a shot . I just can't do it .

But how many employees are finding that out after they made the move and all of a sudden , now I've taken this big salary , I already have a bullseye on my back . Three months are in . I haven't converted anything and you're no better off . You've got to be very conscious of this , because it's a real thing in 2024 .

And show me how your company does it successfully . Because in my experience it's about the human , most humans in this industry . Unless they're an agent or working for a very small brokerage , they will have non-solicits .

And what we're selling is talent that has skills and actually has the ability to perform in the position , with or without a Rolodex , knowing very well that if the Rolodex is that valuable , sure , it's available in six months or 12 months or 24 months when their non not solicit expires , but we're selling the human and the ability .

When you think of somebody who's looked at a load board for the last four years , even if they don't bring business , they know something . They know who's shipping , they know who's carrying , they know you know the freight cycles , and that's the knowledge that most companies are looking for . They just may not even realize it .

They think they want that tangible book of business unicorn . I don't . It does not exist and I think there's way too many barriers that are out of our control to ever promise that .

In this case , I may have five core customers that are my babies . These guys are rolling with me , whatever . I've seen more and more people now carve those out when they're going to a new organization . Look , I'm going to bring these in , but guess what ?

These five specifically are going to leave with me if I am to transition and move on well , so I'm starting to see a little bit more people be proactive as far as that goes .

In a way that you know you get to a point where your average tenure is seven years ?

Clearly , recruiting is our bread and butter , but it's so much connection to retention and this is something we're working with clients coaching and workshops on retention and it really comes down to what do employees want to join your company and what do they want to stay at your company , and it's usually the same thing .

So there's a lot of different pillars and categories that fall under it , but the way we break it down is what employees , job seekers , want is they want a company that has values that are aligned with their values , and they want to see that the company actually lives their values . They're not just words on a wall or on a website .

They want to know what they're going to get beyond the paycheck . So there's the salary , there's the incentive , the commission . If you're interviewing at two companies , two brokerages across the street , we're talking about maybe a $5,000 , $10,000 difference . Other than that , everyone's playing in the same ballpark from compensation . So what benefits do you offer ?

What type of flexibility let's talk about ? Do you have caregiver days ? Do you have floating holidays ? Things that are important to people , especially people who may not always feel comfortable speaking up . The third thing that people look for is connection .

This is like recognition and appreciation , it's feedback , it's check-ins , it's like I just want to know that the person I'm working for cares about me . And then the last one is growth , and that , to us , is a two-way conversation .

We've tried to push people in paths when we believed that they had a skill that they weren't fully embracing or excited about , and it hasn't worked .

But what we found is , when we really work with our employee and it's consistent Every six months we're checking in , we're understanding what they're doing , what they want to be doing , and that's how we advance them . We're working together to create these new jobs .

So , yeah , it's the values , it's the big picture benefits , tangible and intangible , the connection , and then the growth opportunities , and there's so much there . But the bottom line is no company offers everything , and it's not just about a paycheck . I think that is the impression , but there is so much more .

And , brent , you'll probably agree that most job seekers that call us yes , they would like more money , but that is not the reason they're leaving .

Well , what about all the people behind the scenes ? What about the finance department , the operational support ? There's a lot of moving parts to any organization . Some of the most high-performing organizations that we've aligned with have actually rewarded people off of those core values , which I hope are bigger than just something on a wall .

You have to live , eat and breathe those and rewarding people accordingly . Number two I agree with Charlie when it comes to growth trajectory . What did I say about an hour ago ? People will stay with you as long as they know that their dreams , goals and ambitions can work under your umbrella .

The minute that becomes to a halt is when they call us and want to leave . Are you creating almost an internal farm system for growth ? If you start here and produce , you can get to X . If you're at X , you can get to Y . So many people just kind of silo people into one position and then they get stuck . And when people get stuck , they want change .

So having a roadmap for people of growth and we are a growth oriented company will serve a lot of value as well , and if it's not , a promotion or a salary raise , it's development .

They may like the position they're in , but they've been in it three years , but they're confident and they're secure and they're making good money . It's like what else ? Well , let us help develop your leadership skills . Let us help you , you know , build stronger relationships so you can do more in that role .

You know , I think there was so much gold in this , in this conversation , and there's a clear reason why you both built very successful businesses and are two of the top recruiting firms in our industry .

So thank you for coming on the show , Thank you for sharing all your insights , Thank you for the contributions you make to our industry and the companies and candidates you support .

Or we're talking about trends and we're talking about all these things right , there's value in playing nice within your industry with the right people as well .