Ep. #32: Shannon Breen + FreightVana's Journey

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We look forward to working with you To our listeners . That's it . Let's get the show on the road . Welcome back , welcome back . Welcome back to another episode of the Freight Pod . I'm your host , andrew Silver . I am joined today by Shannon Breen .

This is going to be a special episode because this episode will take us over 50,000 downloads during the Freight Pod history . So this one , we have to make this one a good one , my man .

But you know I got to meet some really great people , some great executives , at that conference on that panel and before it was Jason Provancha , now it's Shannon Breen and I just really frankly , a lot of what I heard you say resonated with me and I felt like it would be really great to kind of highlight your story .

So I'm really glad you're giving me some time today . Let our audience get to know you a little better , get to know your business Freight Fauna better . We'll start with an easy one for you . So just kind of walk us through your background and how you kind of got to where you are today .

I may jump in and throw some questions at you , but let's just start there .

But no , yeah , for me , man , I grew up parents were school teachers , background in finance and always had entrepreneurial dreams . So for me , I always thought about franchising . I'd own my own business and dozens of franchises and I'd manage them all and that was kind of my dream coming out of high school and even college .

And just economics didn't work out , the money needed to start it and just never got over kind of that next level . When I looked at doing that and so I did some work in my 20s was an entrepreneur window covering companies , real estate . People talk about a lot in the entrepreneurial journey you fail a lot . You fail fast .

Sometimes you fail hard , like when you're in real estate and you're 28 years old in 2008 . Some of those experiences . Those are the ones that teach you a lot . I ended up going back into full-time finance , working for three , four , five years .

Then a friend of mine at the time was rising through the ranks at Knight Transportation and said I think it'd be really interesting if you came over here . I said I don't know anything about freight , I know nothing about trucks , I know nothing about supply chain . He's like that's not really the skills you need to be successful , but come meet with us .

And so I ended up starting my career in the summer of 2012 for night transportation , worked on the logistics side . We were on the green screens . For some of your audience that's used to the AS400 and the F-Keys . That was our operating system . Some new systems were emerging and you can appreciate this in your kind of new role and functionality .

But some new systems were emerging .

But really , unless you were like a Stallworth mainstay player right your CHs and this , like they had all the systems , all the data and you were just honestly playing so far from behind at least the green screens I was on , worked on projects like that long story short , andrew and just kind of grew the business , worked on the merger in 2017 with Swift and got

an opportunity to learn so much . For anybody , that's for me the merger . Maybe unpack this in our convo . The merger was just an education at a different level , right ? Just ? way better than college learning so much on the fly about yourself and people and systems and at scale with Night Swift , that was amazing . Learning ground and proving ground .

So did that ? Oversaw intermodal , you know . So that was my first foray into assets . And then , in 2021 , man , from a career perspective , felt , felt like I was did a lot in corporate america and I wanted to step out . And you know , I just felt like in the face of a recession , why not try to build a logistics company ?

It sounds , sound like a lot of fun .

He was going to like my dad was just , he was all about that work , but like that's how he filled the gaps and this was before year-round school .

So you had this big blocks of time in the summer and so I watched my dad on that hustle for a long time and then also respected , obviously , the you know the most of the year when he was , you know , teaching uh , fifth grade , uh , for a majority of his career for multiple decades .

So for me that kind of was like man , I love that I had an uncle that was big in an entrepreneurism , had some franchising , and so for me I think between my dad and seeing some family members and just loving the business aspect and kind of having the controls and being able to to watch the scale , like that always really was a draw for me .

Now , window covering and the real estate careers all ended really in the same fall of the same year , 2008 , because we had big contracts with like REITs , real Estate Investment Trusts , and we were doing some contract work with window coverings , plus Phoenix pre-2008 was booming right , so we had residential and commercial contracts Really cool opportunity .

I think the thing that I would share that's a positive that I learned is we had no business winning that contract with like the Real Estate Investment Trust , right .

The guy is doing an RFP , our version of an RFP in our world , right , and you know everybody else turns in their rates and stuff on spreadsheets . Right , here's your . Like we would do today . You got your Excel spreadsheet . There's your rates . There you go Like that's me and this .

I knew that I had to , like , show out on this and we'd never done a commercial bid before . So I literally walked every property , measured all the windows and all the different sizing types . I put it in a car , took pictures of the properties , color printed , put it in a binder , packaged it up , laminated the whole thing .

And I walked into this dude's office and he's just has stacks of you know , different people that had turned their bids in , and then I give him this folder . He was like damn , he says these words to me . I'll never forget it , andrew . I think it's a special thing . He's like I got all these papers and faxes and emails from these other people .

You walked the property , put this folder together . You haven't earned the business . But I'm going to tell you something If you're willing to work this hard just to show up to tell me why you should have my business , I already believe that you're the one that should do this job for us .

And I landed a multi-seven-figure window covering contract at a young age when we had never done commercial before . Because of that level of persistence and preparation and that lesson from a positive perspective I always remembered hey , if you want to show up like everybody else , then show up like everybody else .

But it really has instilled in me this ability to , like hey , be special , be memorable , do the extra work . That's what people are going to remember when you want to win and earn their business . So that's the positive part of that story .

So I carry that with us when we look at our bid results and like how we show backup for our customers . We spend an extraordinary amount of time packaging up stuff , highlighting where we think we fit best . Now you've done this game a long time and at bigger scales than me .

Whether or not the customers actually digest what you give them much like that younger store I just told you . It's not really the point .

The point is , when they see it , they at least for most , not all for most and some will appreciate the level of work and diligence that you put in and those are the things they don't forget Whether they award you the business or not . The way you show up matters .

So we absolutely have done that as a team myself and as we've continued to kind of grow in the face of a really tough freight market .

It can , if you let the work just be the bid pricing itself . It can just be a spreadsheet that 100 people turn in and then you're just a number on a piece of paper . And it was constantly a conversation within our business to try to figure out a way to go the extra mile in that final delivery of the bid .

And whether it was an email with a personal touch or you were sending something in snail mail , whatever it was , trying to find a way to stand out was a crucial part of it .

And I like your comment around most of the time , or even some of the time , that that counted for something , and I think it's worth noting that when it doesn't count for something , it's okay . It doesn't mean that your effort was not worth it .

You know , not everybody is going to appreciate the level of care and detail that extra effort results in but not to quit doing so because of that , because you know you might only get the extra benefit one out of 10 times , but it's worth it when you do .

And those people who are the one out of 10 , those are the true partners that in the lifespan of your relationship it will come back to you . People who appreciate that level of effort tend to give it back in how they carry themselves and how they navigate the relationship with you . Do you kind of agree with

that ?

And if I go back to our first contact , and you know this too , like you're talking years , so you know this too , like you're talking years . So , no matter how I showed up was a no , but maybe they didn't forget and hey , maybe you know and I'll joke with them .

Hey , maybe you just wanted me to prove myself first , maybe you just wanted me to get to here first , maybe you just right like , hey , I appreciate , thank you , because really what you did is you made me better . Now I'm better . Hey , now can we talk right , like like that's the level and look , people appreciate that .

The end and I we talk right , that's the level . And look , people appreciate that . And we talk a lot and we were on our panel and we talked about it . We can commoditize a lot of things in this industry , but people are tribal creatures . They want to work with good people .

And if we're being really honest about those rates on the spreadsheet , it is not like oranges and apples , man , like rates are getting so tight and so narrow , like , yeah , there's a little bit here and a little bit there , but if you did like a standard analysis of that , it's a tight band .

So then , if it's a tight band and I believe you did this very well like I'm not gaslighting , but I believe you , just like you were like hey , my team , my previous team like we will execute , we will give customer service at an elite level , hey , prices are going to be prices , but like , here's what you'll get from my team , and I think that is

differentiation .

Too many folks either attempt to enter on price or sell themselves on price while price matters and they forget that the real differentiation is the people , the diligence , some of the stuff that we're talking through in this thread , because if all you're selling on is price , I don't know , you might get the opportunity , but you probably can't convert it to many

things called profits . That's probably not going to end up being a good thing . There's so many people lined up behind you and we saw it with many , many logos that you and I know well as soon as you go to adjust price , they got 10 people right behind you in line and they'll just swap you out . So what did you get Right ? What did you get ?

And so I've been very intent here at Preyvana on differentiating our brand , differentiating on our investments , differentiating on how we show up much like we talked here , and it doesn't work for everybody , but for those it works with , to your point , some of the deepest special relationships even won some awards , which is wild .

It's a testament to knowing what you want to be and live in the creed .

We're going to walk through some of your journey a little bit before , because I think there's some really interesting stuff here . Um , and I like to try to go chronologically as much as I can . So let's talk a little bit about Night Swift and your journey into that business . What were your thoughts as you came into freight ?

I mean , you know , as you mentioned before , this was something completely foreign to you . But take me back to , I think you said 2012 when you joined , yeah , so what was kind of taking back to that early experience , what you were doing for the business and , um , kind of what it was like back then ?

. I think for me the thing that I gravitated to was the people and the pace . So in my younger years you know , in college and whatnot I worked in a restaurant . So I love the pace . And In my younger years , in college and whatnot , I worked in a restaurant . I love the pace and the chaos and the people and the problem solving .

Now , as I was working that finance career before the summer of 12 , it didn't have the pace , it didn't have the people and it didn't have those levels of dynamics , problem solving . I felt immediately in that summer when I walked in and it was chaotic , right , running a brokerage , and I just love the buzz right , I love the energy , I love the open rooms .

You're no longer in an office doing FP&A , now you're on a floor and you're like okay . So that really drew me back to the restaurant . And then every sports field I ever grew up on , right , it's like all right , let's go compete as , compete as a squad . Right , and I think that's a part certain personalities just absolutely love that about logistics .

And for me I was like all right , I dig this . So I worked on multiple projects but really , when I get down to it . It was the pace and the people and that team environment . You just , in certain corporate environments , you start to lose that yeah , everybody's got teams and you're part of a bigger team , but like doesn't feel like pickup basketball .

Right , and this felt like pickup basketball . Like things are coming at you , you're solving stuff , you're in the fire and I just particularly love that . So that was really my love , where my love started for logistics and where I really started to dive in .

Customers are different , this is different . We don't trust you .

So really , one of my core jobs and functionalities was bringing a level of continuity to from our asset business to our logistics and then , honestly , more even internally than externally , building that trust between planners , account managers , salespeople , because we just really frankly , didn't have much of that confidence back in 12 for what we could be .

Multiple leadership changes . So one of my core jobs was just like how to build that bridge in order for us to work as a larger , effective team instead of just a unit within kind of standalone , which I see a lot of people still struggle with today , so that was really my core functional job when I started .

Especially as you get to larger assets that have a brokerage , it's often treated as kind of an overflow business where they're just taking on spot business that the assets can't handle .

And it's challenging for the brokerage typically to develop strong carrier relationships in a carrier network , because when the market's hot you might have plenty of freight available to give to your carriers , but as soon as the market slows down your own assets eat up all the freight and you're kind of left there telling your carriers like sorry , go somewhere else .

So can you talk a little bit about your perspective on that topic and maybe why it's so challenging for an asset business to build a strong brokerage in tandem and kind of what some of the things you were doing to try to create that positive impact ?

So from a prioritization it's very easy to get stacked and racked the exact way you did and in some ways and I've shared this analogy with some folks fair or not fair , but my perspective , it's almost like building sandcastles , but too close to the ocean , because that market swing is the ocean , right , andrew ?

And when it comes in , right and it pulls out a lot of the things that you highlighted in your piece . There is absolutely true , because your carriers are not as important as the dedicated fleet .

Your carriers are not important as certain terminal and their asset driver , and so naturally is that , as that tide is receding let's call it the market tide along with it goes both your freight and a lot of your care relationships , and and many a times I did three of these , I was not around to do the fourth , which they're probably in the midst of , but ,

and many are and then they just look at you and be like , oh , but you can build it again , and you can build it again , and you can build it again . So one of a few driving forces that I'm sure we'll unpack .

As far as Frey Gana was , like man I feel like I'm really good at certain things and building , but I don't necessarily want to be a rebuilder all the time .

What could it look like if we built certain functionality and certain teams and certain tech and I worked in an environment where that tide didn't just pull out and with it all of the things that you mentioned ? And that was an intoxicating idea for someone that I felt like I had decent success inside of the corporate environment with all the benefits .

But it was like how could it be done independently , standalone , right Like a pure play , and that for both people carriers , customer relationships was just a driving force . That like , oh , I think . I think that that would be special if I could , if I can do that without the gravitational pull of the earth .

I'm just curious what were some of the best characteristics of that business that you have tried to carry with you and bring with you into your next venture , yeah , trucking , and I think this is a good one .

Sometimes that was all great , sometimes not so great , but that discipline allowed Kevin and those teams to scale to right at some 4,000 trucks one of the most profitable at 4,000 trucks and he and that business became really the one that everybody would look at from a litmus test perspective . So that discipline , I think , sticks out among anything .

I mean we get into people and culture and like I mean , if anybody's ever met Keith Knight , one of the greatest humans like ever , right , like , what a special man . That like cared about everybody he worked with , like I loved all of that and that founder story and getting a chance to go walk into his office and just amazing , right .

But that discipline , functionally , from a business perspective , learning that and getting to experience that and then doing a merger and figuring out how to like meld that inside the walls of swift and work with different collaborative teams , like that would be the thing that sticks out among the signing outs .

What does that look like in in decision making or on paper ?

You know unit costs , right ? Uh , unit measurement costs . So every single thing that we did there was focused on that . It was even like a more of a cultural piece . Like you didn't go spend big money on dinners , you didn't travel in first class , you didn't like , right , it was , it was .

It was very well tied to hey , we have drivers , we support the drivers . This is what we need to do to operate the best and we all need to fall in line with that type of cost discipline that comes with it .

So I'd say equipment and fuel and all the natural things , facilities , spending all the things but even culturally , just the side pieces would all flow to where people would be very cognizant of dollars going out . It definitely wasn't loose and fast , even though they had money and they were making money and they were profitable . It never got that feeling .

It was almost like you played . I mean , no different than startup right when you've lived there and when you really don't have it . No different than startup right when you've lived there and when you really don't have it and you have to , you know . So they'd almost been able to carry over that startup feel for decades .

Even though , hey , it's kind of climbed and proven themselves and made profits and quote unquote maybe been better than others at running trucking companies at that size , they'd always kind of kept that kind of idealism of like a startup , like hey , we don't got it like and we don't have it to like to waste .

Can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and , um , kind of how you saw it play out ?

crow flies you're talking 20 miles at most right Between two headquarters of companies that competed for years . So number one location was a huge , massive benefit , because now you could be in multiple offices in one day . You didn't need people flying all over the country like . You could create that team type atmosphere very quickly .

Um , naturally , swift had all the size , um that that night didn't have almost three or four x .

In regards to driver count , um , the part that I found particularly interesting and I wanted to lean into because some of my peers in the space large asset-based companies had already kind of really leaned into this was the power-only piece , right , and Jerry Moyse , by amassing one of the largest trucking companies in the country , you know , was falling a little bit

on seated driver count , but the trailer network was massive , right , andrew , and so they had so many trailers that were sitting out there in the marketplace that were able to be utilized , and so at that point I went to Adam and I said , hey , now's the time we've got to build this .

So one of the big opportunities there naturally you're going to gain the size and all the breadth of connecting the asset networks and logistics networks and figuring out all this massive freight flow that most people could only imagine Right .

But secondarily , they also had the equipment and the breadth , nationwide , coast to coast , that then now I could build technology to tap into and work internally to make sure much like I did my early career right build those bridges internally so that we could build that trust to start to create different types of freight flows and then certainly use that equipment

to the best of its abilities and maximize a lot of the profits and opportunities that existed in those walls . So for me those were really intriguing . The other one is just people . I mean I've never had to walk into a team . I remember my first day , day I'm walking through Swift and one of the guys is pretty bold and he looks at me .

He's like two questions . He's like where are you going to be sitting and how many of us are still going to be here ? And you're like , and I was , I mean I'm just on a walkthrough man , like it's not even . Like we're on like diligence . I mean it's all announced and all that and we're doing our thing .

But I just remember those two and I just remember I paused , I was like I never even met this cat , right , bold dude . And I was like , oh wow , I've never done this before . I have to start processing . So a lot of sleepless nights is .

I started to think about how , from a cultural perspective , do I build this bridge , get the results needed but not have everybody walking around on eggshells like we've seen so many times in our careers and the stories and friends we have in the industry as soon as certain things happen , then the culture is just in this weird spot where no one's really able to

give their best because they're so concerned about their self or their friend , and that that I didn't want . So I worked really hard um to to learn and then build those bonds and then breed confidence and then , to your point , lead by example , right um on meeting different people and really not sitting in an office .

I spent a ton of time on the floor shaking hands , sitting with people , taking people to lunch , like really doing all the things necessary to let them know , like this isn't a chop shop , that's not my job , but like I need to know what you're about and let me tell you what I'm about , and like I hope those two things intersect . So that was .

That was a really cool education .

I mean , when I think about any acquisition that takes place in our industry , that's , that's typically an employee's first thought . The one who's acquired is thinking is my job safe ? Um , and I think companies need to do a better job of getting out in front of that type of thing .

And it's not to say that if you plan on , you know there's going to be overlap sometimes , in fact most of the time when an acquisition takes place , there's overlap and there's going to be a need for some level of turnover .

But there's just a way that I think leaders can be way more empathetic and communicate in a fashion that is a bit more transparent , not so far as to say , hey , this group is going to be laid off tomorrow , but at least to be more understanding . You know I don't have a . I've been through a few acquisitions now .

I forgot about one Whenever I spoke about this on the podcast in the past . I forgot about when Coyote bought Access America , and then also when Coyote was acquired by UPS and then finally , when my own business , molo , was acquired by ArcBest .

Each of those was unique in its own right , but each had benefits and each had challenges , and I just think that companies , especially acquirers , need to do a better job of or at least the way to get the most out of an acquisition is to get buy-in from the people you're acquiring .

And the way to get buy-in from the people you're acquiring is to communicate that with them as authentically and transparently as you can about why you bought them , what you want out of them , and open your ears and listen to them to understand , like , what are the really good things about their business .

You can only find out so much in due diligence and oftentimes you don't get to meet most of the team . You get to meet the most senior leaders in the organization who give you their perspective , but they don't get to meet most of the team .

You get to meet the most senior leaders in the organization who give you their perspective , but they don't always have all the answers . And so you know one of the things I tried to do when we were acquired and Molo's deal was meant to kind of be a reverse acquisition where we were taking over their brokerage .

But , like I , tried to get in front of as many of their people as possible to understand , like what they liked and didn't like about their current roles , the business they've been in , the way the business was run , and try to keep that in mind as you're leading so that you can make decisions with everybody's best interests in mind .

It's just hard to make decisions with everyone's best interests in mind if you don't spend the time getting to know these people and understand their interests . So I don't know .

You use the keywords communication , empathy , authenticity , and those scorecards would lack if you rated most teams that step in on acquisitions , and I think you see that in some of the pain post-acquisition . When then you get to a certain point , years down the road , and it's like wait , we didn't get all the synergies we were asking for .

We didn't get , oh , all the synergies we were asking for , we didn't get . Oh , where's all this happening ? Like then , the same top down , but you didn't spend the commensurate time . Literally , almost I would almost flip the triangle and I don't know how you do it . I think I mean I was able to do it because of the size at certain size .

You know you mentioned ups , cody , I don't know , but I really think that mentality of of flipping the triangle and thinking about it from the ground up would be much more advantageous for companies as they look to spend all this money , because at the end of the day , we really think about it regardless of culture and they're trying to turn it into a decretive

investment , what we've seen in some of the recent ones . Those are what we would call non-accretive in value . Right , those are actually losing value from where they started . And then , I think , doing the autopsy for our industry guys like us and really being able to figure out how do you do this better ?

Because we've seen a really couple of bad examples of not done well . Or there's another one where it's just everything keeps running independently and there really are no synergies .

So , like there's barbells right , it's , we've tried to do it , we failed , or you be you and we'll be us , but we're all under the same umbrella and even that doesn't really bring out the best . So I think bottom up is interesting the way you frame it . I know it worked for me personally , I didn't do one at the size and scale . You frame it .

I know it worked for me personally , I didn't do one at the size and scale , but I still think if it's done at a micro level , you can expand that thought process and have that be a cultural piece that you embed into your next acquisition or , if you're being acquired , I think there's ways to make it much more functional than I've seen it over the last 13

years in the industry over the last 13 years in the industry , I agree wholeheartedly .

And then , look , I've got a large amount of teammates here as we manage these assets and we're growing in a certain way that all carry that same kind of bloodline , if you will , from a logistics perspective . And so kudos to that place , for you know what it taught all of us . We're obviously doing a different thing now , but I just I learned a lot .

I wouldn't be in logistics if it wasn't for Adam , who's now , you know , the CEO of the whole shooting match . So kudos to him . He's the one that brought me in . So I think I always got to be forever grateful for finding this really dope industry . Um , he brought me into it . He started out of college , I came in , you know , eight , nine years later .

So I'm forever grateful for that place , for what it did for me and what I learned very cool .

. Um , out here locally , uh , a car brand um,2b but b2c , right carvana was obviously growing like crazy . Um , there's t-vana , there's all these other vanas , and I was literally in the gym one day working out in the morning and I don't know what hit me and I literally said it in my like head .

I was just sitting there , I was like break bonga and I was like it . Just , it was one of those moments , honestly like . So there was no why it was just , I was constantly kind of chewing through different like ideas and when I said it , it was one of those moments two things happened .

Wildly excited , I'm like , because in my head I'm like I haven't heard something that I like better , right , so I'm processing and I'm like slow down , let's get to a computer . Surely , like you know , that thing's eating up , someone's got this , something's good , so let's just relax and like , and I start playing in my head .

I'm like I could see the fr8 if we wanted to play it like I . But like I , just I loved it , right , I had a ring to it . Vana meant gold and quality . And I'm like dude this people . People know we move freight like gold standard , like whatever it is . So I was like dude freight Vana .

And so ran back to the computer , long story short , it wasn't taken and I was just like obsessed with making that the reality at every level . Because I was like it just had an epiphany and it was like , and it was open . And I was like that's the one and was open and I was like that's the one .

And I told john at the time I was like , hey , and john's , not the market tour . But I was like , hey , you come up with something better , let me know . But like this , this , this is what I'm thinking . And he was like , oh , I dig it .

You know , it was just an app I had on my phone . I thought it was cool . I was capital t little o , capital m little o and I never bought anything from the app .

I know you didn't just start it as by yourself . There were , I think , quite a few of you starting day one . So kind of take me back to 2021 .

We had no funding Right , knew we needed to go get funding , but had no commitments on funding , had no customers , didn't have anything it's just John and I when we quit .

And so we spent the next months seeking funding right Friends and family , making the phone calls , high net worth individuals , friends of friends and so we went out for the next three months and then figured out who would end up investing in the business .

So that was really the gap between starting Freight Bonnet , because in order to start it you need some dollars , and I didn't want to do and this is total respect to all the bootstrappers out there had some dollars and I appreciate it , but it starts with one and then two and then three . But people were like , oh , you bootstrap , very clear and direct .

No , we did not bootstrap it , we got the raise , came back .

We hired two dozen people on day one , to your point , people that all made this radical bet , to bet on this silly name that you mentioned for a bonner myself and others really making a bet on themselves and and starting a business with truly no TMS , no customers , no contracts in hand , right , and just just two dozen people .

I explained it to people because they're like man , your team is just a certain way . The way I would explain it is like the Navy there's the Navy and then there's the SEALs . I was like you realize , if I'm putting my life on the line of building a business , what people do you think I'm going to surround myself with ?

What people do you think I'm going to sit at their kitchen tables and be like , hey , I need you here . Probably the best of the best . I've had 10 years experience , so pretty good ability to assess talent and

capabilities . I felt like after 10 years , it really gave me a cool opportunity to find that two dozen people that wanted to start and we did so . They all started , which was a unique , unique story . Most people's spark story or whatever terminology you want to use there does not sound like two dozen people , starting with them on day one .

But the funny thing is , at least for me and we had you know , 2017 was when we started , so I had about 10 years experience at the time , and I thought I knew a lot and you know , to be honest , I think I had . I didn't have a ton of respect at the time , and I think that was self-earned lack of respect from being such a shithead in my early 20s .

I was a good sales guy , but I was kind of a shithead . I was partying and just not great . And my point , though , is when I look at three , four , five years later , when we actually had a business , because day one , you have nothing .

Day one , you have a silly name like molo or freight vana , you have your 10 years experience and a couple people beside you , but nobody really believes in you . Nobody really believes that you are going to accomplish what I .

Maybe you had a different , but for me , everybody thought I was an idiot and that there was no chance that what we were going to do and was going to what we were going to do was going to work .

My own father literally said this is a bad idea , you should not do this and you have to be willing to say screw all that , I believe in myself and you find the people who will believe in it too .

But the number of people is way smaller than three years later when you've got a business doing $100 million or $200 million in revenue and all of a sudden they're like oh , maybe that guy wasn't so dumb and his team is doing great work , they've got a good presence in the market and I want to go work with them .

So when I look at the first 50 people we hired , there was a lot of turnover in that group because the talent 50 is the number I'm using . But that first 50 , the turnover was way higher because the talent frankly paled in comparison to the people we were able to get .

Three to four years later , once we had a real business and the few that did make it through , we had so much more appreciation for and frankly , they got that appreciation through equity that paid off for them .

But I just am curious if , now that you're a few years into your journey , you feel like it's a little different in how you're able to recruit and retain talent because you do have a real business versus where you were when you started .

Like , and we've done it , we're living it today , right , I mean not to disparage anybody , but like they get to certain points and then , hey , some people have decided this is not the train for them . Some people we've decided this , we've decided for them it's not the train for them .

But as we built this brand and like , you've seen a little bit of our culture from the outside and the marketing and how we position ourselves , and I think what's really cool is when people come in here , it's not wildly different .

I think a lot of people I see , like how they do the marketing or how they offer jobs and then , like , I always find this huge disconnect between the actual reality of what that job is .

I've really tried to be intent on that authenticity loop of like , hey , what you see is what you get and I am what you see here and if you like that cool not , but you walk in the office , that's what you're going to get . So , point being , there is an interesting transition , our company is doing it right now . We just passed three years .

Right , an interesting transition . Our company's doing it right now . We just passed three years . But now the inbound interest from very talented people , or when we have conversations it's like oh wait , hold on . Alex Perry came over , who I think you know from DAT . He came over and he's our new VP of Pricing and Network . Jody Morrow just joined the team .

12 years at Coyote , yup , great hire , well done .

You put yourself in there , uh , that spot where you probably should assume it in your heart , you believe it , but it's almost this weird validation loop where folks like a Jody specifically , will reach out or we , you know , have , you know through the , through the process , and you're like , wait , you , you you're interested in like this is the next , and then you

meet them and then like that , that , then you just get this . Really , it's a boost , because I'm telling you like Jody has been here two weeks , you know , and our whole team is just you could just like your point is it's , it's got to be .

What a locker room feels like when when that happens in sports , right , and I , I am not talented enough to sit in those locker rooms , but in this world , in our profession , it is that feeling where it's like wow , okay , like and then people start drawing lines forward like if this is like , who can come to freight bonnet next ?

what in the heck does it look like two , three , four , like you start to do what the investors do as you sat in those rooms . But it says you're looking at like talent and growth and the types of a team you can build and like that is just something I just obsess over . I'm just wildly excited about and and super humbled by too Incredibly humbled by .

It was important because it created more opportunity for the team , whether that was financial or in the context of responsibility , in the ability to create new teams and promote more people . But it also attracted more talent . It attracted better talent and put you in a position where more quality people wanted to come join you .

And having more quality people in a relationship business allows you to grow faster and to continue to keep your foot on the gas pedal . I think one thing that you mentioned that's really important is that kind of what you see is what you get .

And it's one thing to go out on social media and say , hey , this is who we are , this is how we act and this is what you get . And it's one thing to go out in social media and say , hey , this is who we are , this is how we act and this is what it's like to work for us . But I think what a lot .

I think most of linkedin is bullshit and I think that I shouldn't . Maybe I shouldn't say that , but I I don't swear a ton on this show and I do have to always mark the show as explicit when I'm posting it , because occasionally something slips but that one might be in range .

But my point is that social media LinkedIn is a place to find talent and to kind of exhibit who your organization is and what it stands for , and people love using buzzwords about transparency and communication , and you know all the things that they know check a box , but the behavior internally in the business is not often simpatico .

It's not often replicated or reflected the same as it was communicated publicly , and I think , for me , one of the things that I loved about our team and kind of the social media presence was that , like , what we did say was represented by how we did behave in the business , and it earns you a lot of trust .

It earns you a lot of rapport from your team and from people who want to join your team , and this is a tough business , but it's a people business and it will forever be a people business .

We will be able to automate so much of the business through technology , whether it's something you build internally on your own or it's a vendor you're buying from in this space , and there's going to be more and more of those vendors popping up as time goes on .

That's great , but there will always be a person buying from another person and the way that this industry will continue to differentiate will be through the people and the way that those people show up at work every day .

So every one of our superpowers , whether it's a Molo or a Freight Bonner or any other business , will be the people , how they relate to one another

, how they work . So you know , I told you something when we first met at the panel that I hated . And this was something that was true as a competitor and you know , there were a lot of flaws in the way I competed and I think some of it was how I view .

I think there's a little bit of a childish way in how I viewed our competitors and it was always with a little bit of hatred , and I think about competitors a little differently now . You know , I'm happy to even kind of amplify them , as I'm trying to do with you now .

But you guys came on to the scene with a kind of explosive social media presence and your team was so out there and constantly posting and talking about how great Freightvana was and all that stuff . And as a competitor I saw it was just like who are these guys like ?

Once again , we talk about sticking out on how you show up in a bid . How are you going to to stick up on the way you present yourself ?

And so Josh and I , early on , were like and he had a passion for it , not an expertise in it , truthfully Josh was doing recruiting , still does recruiting today , but he was like he had this real passion for , like social and the arts and he'd been studying and this is kind of the rise . And you're like this . You talked about touch of modern .

Well , barstool , there was nothing hotter than barstool sports , right , barstool was just crushing the game .

And so josh is like , hey , barstool , but like we've all got personalities , we can be fun and zany , like it'll all still roll up to freyvana , but like let's empower our people to just get out there and like , have fun and goof around and then let's highlight our trailers and let's , let's empower our people to just get out there and like , have fun and goof

around . And then let's highlight our trailers . And let's take these trailers that there's like millions of them that are just a freaking commodity that most people not in trucking , but even in trucking just trailer , trailer , trailer . It's just commoditized .

He's like what if we made trailers like badass , like the stars of the show , and I was like absolutely Right , like the stars of the show , and I was like absolutely right .

And so now , as you gain steam , so like we've always highlighted our equipment and where it's at , and then our community , and so we just really took that barstool model and we're like we want to go big , but we also , in order to do it right , because people will call me all the time like I want to do it I'm like you want to do it , but then you want

to like you've got to be really careful and there's some things , probably some learning lessons there , but you want to do it . But then you want to like you've got to be really careful and there's some things , probably some learning lessons there , but you want to do it .

But then there's all these risks like most corporations , large institutions , if you're owned by a public trade company , you'll say you want to do it . You probably don't really want to do it , right . Like that will get shot down so fast . It won't be authentic , it won't be fun and zany .

It'll be buttoned up , it'll have five levels of approvals or it'll just be stale crackers right , and who wants to consume that ? Right . It's just like anything else . It's either got to be fun and give value or entertainment , or it's just noise . And so we literally rent the whole full bore on , you know , fb in the wild .

We literally rent the whole full bore on , you know , fb in the wild . And now we have people literally weekly for us because they like , hopefully like who we are and what we represent , what we're trying to do in the industry . We could post every single week online Freight Bond in the wild .

I get texts three , four times a week Like bro , I saw you guys out , like it is just the coolest for a trailer .

And I'll be honest and I'll probably like years from now I hope we have another talk like I don't think anybody's done it that way with a trailer in our industry , and so to kind of be a little bit of a pioneer and making that type of like trailers cool , highlight them , celebrate them .

It's just unique and I think it's really a part of this fabric that we're building here , especially with what operationally we're building , which is a nice tie in , right , it's not like ancillary to our core business model , it is literally the thing .

But it's fun and it's zany and it's different , and then just the love and the community and the support we get from it . So the social thing was absolutely intentional . We came on the scene .

Surely it's helped open doors , surely it gets copycatted , right , it's just like sports , though I tell people all the time , andrew and people copied what , what you've done probably took pieces of it . Like it's sports . Like these teams are running plays . Nfl teams run plays . It's only their play , maybe their play the first time they ran it .

You don't think there's video of that . I mean , give me a break . Like there's 30 other teams that are watching the same play , that same down and distance , can run the same play . But I always say then , if the plays aren't the special one , then it's who and how they run them that makes it special . And so sometimes people are like aren't you upset ?

Like people are doing this and I feel like they're just like directly trying , like we don't care because , at the end of the day , you got to run it better than us . You got to have people that follow it better than us . It's just like sports , like running the play . People feel like it's the trick . No , you got to run it . When do you run it ?

How do you run it ? How effective do you run it ? Who's running it ? That's the stuff that really matters . Social media is just one of the many things that we do special here . It was an amazing compliment sitting on that stage . We were in that group with Jason and even Matt , who I've known for years and you have too . Yeah , piat , you son of a bitch .

Oh , I just did it again . You SOB , you SOBs . I was like who the heck are you guys ? And it was cool to sit on that , sit on that stage and , uh and share that story with you , man .

So I mean , I'm , I'm , I like , I like the way you phrased that with the running the play , and I think that the at the end of the day , it comes down to kind of an innovator's mindset and understanding that , yes , I came up with a great play and plenty of people are going to copy it and while they're working on learning that play , I'm working on building

the next 10 plays that are going to differentiate me and you know I'm not necessarily looking to copy other people's plays , but I am trying to learn from other people , masters of their own work . You know , you mentioned Barstool . Barstool is a really interesting company to me and I've been a fan of Barstool for a long time .

I even at one point wanted to partner with them at Molo and I got a lot of flack for it . It was something where I talked about it in a company-wide meeting and again , I tried to be really in tune with our team , especially at the entry level , and a lot of people were turned off by the idea , and I understand why .

They've had plenty of controversy in their time . I do think that their CEO or , I'm sorry , the president , founder , dave Portnoy , has a great heart . I do think he's crossed some lines , not so much intentionally , it's just kind of the way he's been . But there's some controversy there .

But if I'm being perfectly honest , my communication style is very much modeled after him Brash and bold , yeah , just kind of calling it how you see it , just putting it out there , not being too concerned , trusting that you have the right interests at heart and that you don't have ill intent with the things you're doing and saying , and then just being yourself .

And people really appreciate that about him and I like to think that that's one of the things my team generally appreciated about me . But I get why people you know it's a challenging thing to talk about . But I do want to pivot us to kind of your core business .

So I think you made a great point that the social media being focused on power only or , I'm sorry , on trailers specifically , it does tie in very well to the business of Freight Vana .

I think the first thing I'll ask you to do is to kind of describe what Freightvana is meant to be and kind of how trailers and power only play into this , because I do think it's very different than the average freight broker and I'd love for you to kind of walk my audience through what that looks like I mean for us honestly on a mission to be a

transformative transportation company in the future .

experience . Our mission is to create a transportation company . I tell people often that we identify as a broker because we have to have a broker Gen C but what we're building is a transportation company .

Part of that build is a heavy leaning into building the nation's largest congruent trailer fleet to be able to unlock the things that people talk about all the time the long tail of capacity , the long tail of capacity and at the same time , compete with the largest asset companies in the country , andrew that have dominated certain segments .

Because , quite honestly , what the shippers demand most , traditional freight brokers and even small carriers cannot provide for them right both operationally um or nationally right if it only helps you in a region .

You know some of these large shippers You've had all the conversations Like they want their life to be made easier and so by building something at scale , like we intend to do , we feel like we will unlock a lot of the efficiencies and the agilities that a freight broker naturally has and be able to tap directly into the opportunities and solution engineering that a

large asset fleet can provide the largest shippers in the country . So it's a special intersection , it's an emerging category , I'd say . Many people do it at certain levels .

My vision and passion for us is we do it at a scale , a level of efficiency , running a certain type of play , going back to our prior analogy , that we just do it at a level where it is elite and , ideally , category leading in this country .

So you didn't give me , give me a little bit more of the specifics around the trailers , the leasing , what you all have actually done there , because I think that you know the the standard freight broker owns and leases zero equipment , is is a simply a middle person , middle company between the carriers that move the goods , who own their tractors and trailers , and

the shippers that tender the freight out . And that has changed definitely , where some freight brokers are starting to get into some drop trailer type business through managing a trailer pool for carriers or even leasing some trailers . But I don't think many , if any , companies have gone to the length that yours has .

So can you give me some of the details behind that so our audience understands ?

We have north of 600 plus trailers on the road nationally . We are in coast to coast right and we deploy those trailers for the road nationally . We are in coast to coast right and we deploy those trailers for the largest CPG retailers and manufacturing companies in the country to create the trailer pools that they require .

Right , but they're all homogeneous , they're all logo , they're all integrated , and then our carriers can utilize that equipment to obviously run the freight and then as we build out our network , ideally it just gets even more connected and efficient . I currently you can imagine this right building a freight network for anybody , whether it's trucking or brokerage .

People always tell me like , oh , what's the network ? I'm like man , I've been doing this three years . Yes , we've had good success . But that is not a network , right , and you know I just talked a lot about where I came from earlier in your piece here . That's a network what I'm trying to build want to resemble a network , but let's not get it twisted .

When you come on the scene , you're a rookie provider , you're growing in a freight recession and someone's going to give you an opportunity . This might shock you , but for me , I don't exactly get to call up and tell them where and how I get to run and at what price , right .

So what I try to tell people because everyone's like , oh , what they really love is some of the stuff you and I just talked about . When they talk about trailers , they love the marketing , they love the sales , and I always explain it like an iceberg to many . It's like that you're seeing the tip of it and you're like , oh man , trailers , the you .

But I'm like there's this whole piece below the waterline and it goes like this and it's heavy , right , it's heavy on cost , it's heavy on operating demand . You now have to manage assets , you have to track assets .

It creates a completely different beast for you and so , for our team , what we're doing , and for folks that don't know , is we're operating the assets . We're creating efficiencies in our bid process with the assets .

We're working with all our partner carriers to keep it safe and make all the breadcrumbs for when they're dropping and picking up and all the pieces like . It becomes a completely unique build from your traditional freight brokerable .

So for the audience , I've talked about this at some point , I don't remember with which episode , but when I go out to a Fortune 500 customer of mine and participate in their bid and Molo was traditionally a very live load , live unload broker , like 95% of the brokerage is out there we did a little bit of drop trailer but it was all through partner carriers .

But when I looked at Kellogg's bid or I don't know , anheuser-busch's bid or Molson Coors or really any enterprise Fortune 500 company , the lion's share of the bid was segmented out for drop trailer business . Why ? Because it was easier for the shipper to manage that way . Detention was a way smaller issue in this case .

It gave them the flexibility to manage their freight better and most brokers couldn't do that .

And it was frustrating to know you put in all this effort to support a customer , a large customer you spent maybe two , three years working to get in with and then when push came to shove and you were bidding on the freight , you could only tap into 20 or 30% of the available business .

So there's definitely an angle where it makes a lot of sense to get into leasing or owning trailers because again , you just get to tap into a bigger piece of the pie . The challenge , though , when I think about your business , is when you start with all the trailers .

There's certainly the advantage of when you go to a Molson , coors or whoever it is , a shipper , and say , hey , I've got trailers for you . The sales process should be shorter because you have something that they need . You have something that they want , but you don't have established rapport .

You haven't been hauling for multiple years for them , so you're not exactly getting your pick of the litter with the freight and you don't have a network .

You don't have a ton of freight to build this off of a ton of relationships to build this off of a ton of relationships and carriers and customers to just throw the trailers into , um , the , the , what would ?

One could argue , the most feasible way to go about something like this is to build a 500 million dollar brokerage traditionally and then go lease 600 trailers , um , and you can . It would be way easier to throw those 600 trailers in and use them efficiently in a network like that . But I'm not saying I'm certainly not saying what you do was wrong , that's .

That's not at all what I'm alluding to .

Um , having all these trailers and finding a way to put them to work and to to get the customers to create an efficient , even if it's just as efficient as saying hey , you know , I've got one customer from phoenix to la and another from la to phoenix . We're going to throw five trailers in both of their yards and we're going to run three loads a day .

Let's go . I mean , is that kind of how it starts one ?

And then do it in a freight recession .

As we look to inflect this business , our results , I would say a ton of passion and talent against it is really starting to question people like , well , if you can accomplish this in the face of that , then what can you accomplish in a balanced market ? What can you accomplish in an inflationary market ?

And I think that really gets where our business gets interesting . But no doubt when you're starting it's the hardest . When you started , it was the hardest for you too . Just different problems . Those doors aren't opening . You're still walking in saying , hey , I'm with Touch of Modern and I'm trying to haul this free for you .

They're like , yeah , I've got all the logos . You're like , no , but I can . They're like , yeah , but we already got that right . So I guess I'd highlight it that it is a lot of talent and belief , man , and I feel like there's this intersection specifically for us in this category .

That's underserved and I think that's what's really special , because sometimes that is really where you have to sell , because I always tell people if you're just selling on price . We've seen people try to just sell on price . Sell , because I always tell people if you're just selling on price . We've seen people try to just sell on price .

Um , and then this market . I'm not sure if that's the best way to win . If you're , you feel like you could only now , hey , if you've got the buying power and the horsepower that we know the logos and you can get there , then that's great .

But if you're a new entrant you are you really have no business winning on price unless you've got a lot of money to invest on that burn . I think we just haven't set up our business that way . So incredibly challenging to your point .

You're building out a network , but I would tell you this the way we show up , the way we execute , people first have their doubts , like , well , this isn't going to be this , and then , how are you going to do this ? But you said it to your team momentum begets momentum .

Well , now I can pick up a phone and say , hey , you have doubts , don't believe me , call this person . Oh , you have doubts , don't believe me , call this person .

And then they tell our story for them , which is such a like that referral network or that validation network of , like , shannon's team is legit , their equipment legit , when they say they'll do something legit , and so that momentum begets momentum and we're still in the absolute crap marketplace .

So I just , you know , going back to those underdog days and going back to just being an undersized kid on the sports field , like I particularly like it .

Like I like playing from behind or people having the doubts , or hey , like you know , obviously you quit a job and you know half the people are wishing you success and half the people are like there's no way that's going to work right . And I'm a twisted , dark energy person . Like I vibe with the half that's like oh , yeah , yeah , that's not going to work .

Like that's that's not going to work . Like that's what plays in my head just on a rotational loop and everything right , like I do it for my people . But then there's this dark angel that's like hey , remember that person , remember this person , remember that comment . And then I just it's just like logs on the fire that drive me .

like I need that jolt yep , can you ?

That was the first kind of company that , first of all , I appreciated always that . They were the first ones , first real enterprise shipper , to give us a chance and you know my account manager on that . I told them like day one you do whatever it takes to make sure we're the number one performing carrier in their network .

And when we learned they had a carrier award process , our whole team was rallying around the fact that we could win that . And within three years we did and we were named their carrier of the year .

And I mean I was putting that in front of every other shipper that I was selling to and it just it makes it a little easier when you know we can all say we're great at this and that , but when someone else says it for you , I think it speaks a little louder .

So I'll first congratulate you and your team because you did just win , I think , broker of the Year or Carrier of the Year Award for Ace Hardware right .

I think there's tears in my eyes . I was literally crying on screen showing our team this award because we put so much effort into that . That was the accumulation of all of the effort that we had put into building . It was our vision being realized in real time .

And there's such a level of appreciation when people are willing to work so hard on behalf of a vision you've created for them that they're all in on and it comes together . It culminates in that , um , that to me , was a very special thing . So , um , talk to me . Talk to me about your relationship to ace .

When did you first start hauling for them and how did you get to this point now of being their top ?

So you still got a COVID overhang . The market hasn't started crapping in 22 . Talk about what we want to do , our model and kudos to that team . Like took the time to meet us , didn't have to ask a ton of questions , which I was like I literally almost missed a flight because we end up in like a 30-minute call .

But now , um , their leadership team just like peppering questions and I'm like I'm used to just like , hey , time's up . Hey , thanks guys . Oh , you know we're all out of here .

Like I set up the time for you , but like there's a vibe to it and like , look , when you're starting out , let's be honest , there's not a lot of people vibing and you're not backing , like everyone's just not engaged .

But this particular group was very engaged , these particular people who I endear at this point of my career , and so I literally can't make my , I'm almost about to miss my flight , don't even have time to go to long-term parking . We race out of our first headquarters .

I'm like Andrew , you've got to drop me at the curb because I can't even do parking and like I barely make this flight All because , right , like we had this crazy talk that ended up going over 30 , 45 minutes , but it's just all the right vibes , as the term the kids would use . Right , it's all the right vibes , all the right questions .

Is like exactly the type of conversations like I dreamed of having . And they gave us opportunities , tough ones , to start . My teams talk about the first terrible lanes we had and the first tough stuff we did and we , just we , just a testament to my team , really , I mean , that's really . We don't talk about tears in the eyes .

I was , you know , we grew the relationship , multiple facets of their business and they've always just believed in us and we stuck by them through the market shift in 20 , in 22 , when it shifted downwards . They've stuck , stuck by us , and we've just created a relationship very similar to our business model of like .

You know , we don't want to you know , our goal is not to take you to the penthouse , but like hey , we need good partners here to be able to sustain what we need to build . And they've believed in that as a team .

And I think you know having a group like ace with their hundred year history and their and now they're planning teams and now they're executives . You want to talk about first what was cool . We sit in this meeting . I'll go to the conference . We're sitting there . You know the deal . You're sitting in front of 120 of your peers .

I know we do a lot for them , but I'm not in their walls . I don't know exactly who else is working there . You got the biggest and the baddest . Every name you would know asset , non-asset . You don't even know they're doing awards . They've never done awards before . You want to talk about first of firsts . They've never done awards .

We get to the end and their guy , andy , stands up and he's like hey , we've got some firsts , we're going to do awards . I think I put my hand on Andrew's thigh , next next to me , and I was like , oh bro , I'm either . This is going to be either really great or really really really bad five minutes . And it was just like then .

It was just this moment where usually I'm highly like you know , like whatever , I'm pretty composed cat , but I was just like that was a long few minutes and they got to it and they announced us and your tears , you had the award . I walked up , I think I fumbled the award .

It fell on the ground like just out of sorts man , because it was , it was a culmination , and then the word you didn't use , but I would use it's just a validation , you know oh yeah , so much heart and spirit and hard work and for have someone else validate you and believe that what you bring to the table was worthwhile .

And , man , we walked out of that . We set I set up an immediate team's call with my team back here in phoenix and you know I sold that .

We were almost getting kicked out of the network is how I pre-persevered the deal right , my ops manager's still angry at me because I was like hey guys , we win together , we lose together , you know the mission and like I , like I got bad news and like they just looked and made and then I was like , but I guess they , you know , they felt this way and they

gave us the Carrier of the Year Award and he was like you SOB , like he was so pissed and then everyone was going crazy bro . But I agree , like if I look , know what the moments will be .

But out of my three years , but between all the darkness and the ups and the downs and the wins and the losses , like that is a paramount moment , when you feel like you're sitting there and it all comes together and then you can share it , like you did with your team .

I , I , just that's literally my why , like why I do what I do , and it was just a crazy cool moment that I , uh , I never want to forget yep , I mean you .

So from there , let's talk about where the business is today and where do you see this thing going at this point . What does the team still need ? I mean , power only is still like . What percentage of the business is power only ? And , um , how do you see yourself in the market ?

Um , when do you , when do you think you get to the place of being like a truly efficient network with the 600 trailers that you're moving around the country ? What's still needed to get there ?

So nothing too dissimilar from , I think , the standard build . We do want to have the ability to make the bets and grow the trailer fleet , which is capital intensive , right , so our P&L , our capital stack , will look different . It's funny you mentioned density because I've had people ask .

I've never done it right , because I've only worked at a place that had 60,000 loads a week and then zero . So I'm a little messed up , right . Like you all talk barbells , I'm trying to figure out how to live in the middle , maybe differently , but I would tell you that I think there's this ability for us to scale like that .

I think the initial stage is the customer interest , the awards , the people that are willing to invest in a different type of solution , unique , but that really lies heavily much like you hung the hat on on execution and communication and never relents on that . Jodi asked me the other day she's like hey , really good question , right , it's day seven .

For her , this is how she thinks . She's like , like what are the things years from now that , like you , absolutely won't relent on ? And I was like our culture and our service right , and so for us , like that is my burning .

So now everything I do has to make sure that I'm trying to to live up to that creep because of our culture and our service , live there . I think the rest is dominoes , because I think the talent's there , I think the ambition's there , I think the carrier and the shipper desire's there . I have to make sure that we don't lose sight of those two things .

Those two are paramount for me . We'll continue to expand at a rate that I think will maybe surprise some , maybe not all . There'll certainly be people that want to follow along and are people with big capital stacks that would like to do it .

But what I learned inside corporate America also , and these people that also work in corporate America today , will tell you sometimes it's easier to be a little bit more free in regards to decisioning and scale and that agility that you get by sitting like where I sit is much different inside the walls of you know all the institutions that may have ambitions very

hard to change a tiger stripes , and so you know , I like our chances of being a pure play . I like our chances of being able to do it from the ground up and take all those learnings .

I think that's a special place to sit and I don't think most people will want or have desires to necessarily chart that course in the short term , which gives us a really nice competitive advantage .

How does service compare in terms of the ability to execute for a live load , live unload carrier situation to a power only where it's your own trailer ? Does it get more challenging ? Are there potential for more risks at some point ? It's a slightly different ecosystem .

So now we have to build the networks , make sure we've got trailer balancing and that . So Live Live has its benefits and its drawbacks . From a service perspective , we're really good , but we've got committed business , we've got committed carriers , we've got committed routes . We've got committed business .

We've got committed carriers , we've got committed routes , we've got decent volumes . There's always variability in that , but I guess I'd say for us our service is really high end . And then , yes , it's your execution , but it's also , as you know , your communication behind it . So that is where we thrive .

The other one that I would share with you that is very interesting and incredibly marketable in case you're looking to invest , but we can talk about that offline . I'm just kidding , but it's security , right , if you talk about the biggest buzzword in sports , for us it's security .

And because of our trailers , because of our assets , because of the connectivity , because of the cargo sensors because of the other stuff we're doing . We have an immaculate , very strong service record for freight when it runs on our trailer . So now not only do they get service execution , they also get security .

So I'm not trying to like , shy away from , like the coverage piece , but I am trying to shy away like how the options differ . And then , obviously , the marketability of when you're running like the asset fleet .

many instead of kind of the old adage of like it's your problem , it's your problem , it's your problem . You've lived that life , you've sat in the seat right like , or even in the carrier , like it's your problem , it's your problem .

Now , I think what travelers is seeing is because it's such a massive problem and in order to solve it much like any other problem to solve it takes collaboration , it takes people meeting in the middle . The simple it's your problem is not solving the problem , and so the blowback now is and the really the good thing . I said it's not blowback .

The evolution is now that I think we will get shippers and a three , you know , a brokerage community into rooms and we'll start figuring out how do we improve this together . I think that's going to be an evolution that you and I both watch over the next few years , and it won't be just solved on one end almost impossible .

And and I think you have to have the motivation out of all the pain that this market has created , andrew , I think the motivation loop has also been created for shippers and brokers to really sit down and start solving this at a macro level together , because it's getting to a point where it's costing us all way too much , way too much time , way too much

capital . And now this is that pain point where I think will cause some investments and change from both parties .

It would be interesting to see our industry elevate the collaboration beyond the standard shipper-broker , shipper-carrier , broker-carrier relationship that's transactional or even contractual but focused solely on moving goods from A to B , a more sophisticated relationship where everyone is investing in a collective solution to .

You know , everyone wins in a scenario where we can end or significantly reduce fraud in the industry . Everyone wins .

And it is definitely a way harder problem for you to solve on your own , for me to solve on my own , for a shipper to solve on their own Way , harder than that you to solve on your own , for me to solve on my own for a shipper to solve on their own way harder , impossible um , and I hate to hang that because I'm not the impossible guy but like you

alone , no chance .

My team learned a ton . That was the one thing that just kind of bore a hole in my head . It's like maybe now is the time where we really start collaborating and talking about hey , instead of passing the buck and rejecting a thing , how do we solve the problem together ? Here's what I know . Here's what other people are doing .

How do we solve the problem together ? Here's what I know . Here's what other people are doing . How do we share best practices ? Where are your gaps ? Let's just be honest , right and let's , let's , let's own the problem together , because otherwise it's just it's the back and forth and it's not healthy .