Came back with a bank window down yelling now money in a day hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm getting to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them made them make a bigger ball hey.
What is up, ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the Freight Coach Podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central, to break down some industry headlines. But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show.
And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve, so you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. Happy Tuesday, everybody. I'm going to jump right in. I got a very special guest for you guys here today. I've known him for a while now, and I'm just excited to get him on the phone. He is a transportation professional to its tee. He's a serial entrepreneur, and we're going to talk high value freight expedited, all that fun stuff today and building it up. So I have Mr. CJ Johnson on the show today.
So, CJ, thank you so much for joining me.
What's up, Chris?
Dude, no, I'm a lot, man. I'm, I'm ready. I'm ready to rock. Every, Every time we've been, you know, every time we've ran into each other over the years, man, it's always just been great talking to you because you're, you're just a hustler, dude. Like, that's the only. Like, that's the first thing that comes to my mind. You're always coming and going. Every time we've met on the show, man. So I just, I appreciate you taking the time to join me today.
Well, thank you. It's funny you say that because I Wore baseball numbered 14 for Pete Rose in college because of Charlie Hustle. So that's what they called me, was Charlie Hustle.
So, yes, dude, I love it, man.
So.
So, cj, how did you get your Start in transportation. What brought you into to the industry?
So I was selling vinyl siding and windows for Sears out of college and was working about way too much, way too many hours for a 21 year old kid basically. And I had a friend that was working in transportation. I took a huge kind of pay cut to get into sales in transportation back in the mid-90s. And it was one of the best things I ever did basically because this industry has been like a great part of my life. You know, I love transportation.
So, you know, I say serial entrepreneur because like the, you know, the few times that we've chatted in person, you're in like multiple sides of the industry.
Yeah, I, I own five different companies, all in the logistics space. I have the asset side, Flow Trans. I have the brokerage, which is the BWS side. We have the BNC which is our E Commerce fulfillment warehouse doing kidding and Walmart, Shopify, Amazon. I have a driver leasing truckers. And then we have the TMS Future Trans, which is an LTL platform that you can route your LTL carriers and truckloads and things like that. So a little bit everything.
How, like, where did it start and how did you vertically integrate all of that? Right, because I feel like as a business owner, you know, at least I know I kind of fell into this is like you want to do so much right away because like you get that initial freedom of like, oh my gosh, I'm a business owner now. And then these opportunities come your way and you want to do it. Did you kind of start them all at the same time? C.J. Or did you hit like certain revenue multipliers or. It was.
Yeah, not at all. You know, flow's 25 years old. That's the oldest. And then the TMS came probably about 13 years ago. The brokerage was about seven years ago. The driver lease was nine. And then BNC, the warehouse was right at the beginning of COVID because, you know, I felt like Amazon and Walmart were coming for everybody and we need to get some brick and mortar going. So. No, it's usually it was more about the timing of. Okay, we're doing well. It's all set up, it's running. All right, let's move to the next one. And I'm kind of in that journey right now. I'm looking for the sixth one. I have an idea regarding some trade show which is what, you know, we do a lot of freight for more.
Doing some contra consulting that I'm working on now to this year to start the sixth one. So once things are set it and forget it and I got, you know, people that I trust or people running the day to day and actually involved in the grind, then I can kind of feel confident to say, hey, what's the next adventure?
What advice? So we're going to go a little on topic, but off topic here, man, because I feel like building systems is probably the most important part of your build your business early on that a lot of people overlook. I know I'm. My tendencies are, is I don't really write anything down. I just operate right. Because I know what to do in my head. But you know, fortunately I have a business partner who loves writing stuff down and creating processes and systems for us to follow in that event. And, you know, you brought up a good point because I feel like, you know, I would probably be way more stressed out if I didn't have any of these systems to operate in, even though I have them in my head.
Do you think, like that's a, that's where most entrepreneurs and, you know, business owners, as they're starting out, that's where they should start, is building out those systems from day one.
Yeah. Because you can't go and grow anything if you don't have those systems. Right. Like, you know, me and you might be able to sling flurry left and right and it's not a big deal. But to train that to somebody else down the line, whether it be your middle management, your lower workers, in that sense, you have to have process me and you could skip from 1 to 10 and not worry about 7, 8, 9. But for the average person or a lot of people in the industry, they need that. All right, this is the process. This is exactly what I do. This is how I'm going to do it. So they can get to 10, basically. And then you can replicate that and replicate that.
When did you, like, when did that really hit you in business? When you, when you really did that. Right? Because I feel like that's one thing that if I didn't have a business partner, if it was just me running this right now, I don't know if I would have ever have made the necessary implementations of a lot of this early on.
Yeah, I think my time, at least personally was it was a. Not. It wasn't right away. It was probably seven, eight years. You know, flow was started in 2000. It probably was in the years of the seven, eight, nine and those rough years where, you know, it exploded to a degree and then it kind of, everybody and their mother during that time had to pull back and kind of say, oh, wait, what's going on? And kind of not just go off, you know, just go wild and just kind of say, hey, let's take freight and do this and take that. And during those times, I think it was the time where we realized, all right, we need to get this down, we need to get our process down, we need to get our procedures down and we need to be able to do that.
So as that progressed and we got really good at it was able to easily to replicate that with new businesses. As I started, basically as we started with, you know, whether it be my partners or myself, is that how has.
That translated into, you know, you brought up trade shows, for example. I know you guys do a lot of high value freight, like you guys are in the spirits and everything else that's out there. How has that led to success inside of that side of the industry? Right, Because I, you know, the trade show work that I've done in here, like, man, there is, there's so many eyes that you need to dot and T's that you need to cross just to ensure that you're getting in there to the marshalling yard and everything else. Have you seen a direct correlation to it or is that why you started, you know, kind of going after that style frame?
Yeah, I think so. Because, you know, we have a lot of people on our team that have experience. Right. You know, Rob Bussey's got, you know, 30, 40 years, if not more in the, you know, that space, but to be able to teach the young workers or other workers as well, you have to have those processes down because it's such, like you said, a niche type, you know, service that we're providing basically. So we have those processes so that if, you know, Rob's out for a week and you know, he's never usually out for even a day, but there's other people that can handle and pick up the slack when it comes to the weekends, the nights. In those moments, if you don't have those, that's an industry that can get sideways very quickly, as you know. Right.
Because next thing you know that trade show is going to be putting that product on somebody else's trailer. And that bill that was 500 to your client is now, you know, $5,000. Because it gets just thrown into a general, you know, the gen pop, I guess, as you say. Yeah, you definitely need to have those processes down so that as you're teaching those People in the specific industries, they, you know, it's just, it's a requirement for sure.
How do you, how do you assess risk versus, you know, actually kind of going after. Because like, and I guess the way that I'm trying to word this is C.J. Is, is we all start somewhere, right? Like, I do open deck and heavy haul now, but I started without doing it and kind of building up that experience. So how do you kind of leverage that risk of trying something new like trade show or high value? And what advice would you give to somebody who's presented with that opportunity for the first time and they've never done it before?
Yeah, I think it's being honest with the clients. You know, I think it's about the relationship. You have to be able, if you have that opportunity, saying, hey, you know what? I don't know this, but you're asking me about this for a reason, you know, Mr. Mrs. Client. So there's a reason you're calling me. You. You're having some issues possibly, or you're having some not great experiences. And maybe it's you just saying, hey, I need a little time to kind of learn it, to understand it, to find you some carriers that I could actually service you well and then get it done. Right. Most, you know, in our industry, everyone wants to just take, take, and it's like, yeah, they just say yes to everything.
And that's not always the way that I've found success over 30 years is just being honest, saying, hey, I can't do this, or, you know what, I got to get back to you. I'm going to go and talk to some people and get it done for you the right way. Because there's too much out there, like you said, just taking freight, taking opportunities, taking something and they have no clue. And next thing you know, that's when disaster happens. And that's where you get bad thoughts of, oh, this broker so bad, or this carrier so bad, they put a bad name out there. And so I think it's just being honest and going after doing the work. Right. Like you had to go for those open halls. Like you had to go and actually make phone calls and find carriers. You didn't.
They didn't just show up on a load board anywhere. Right. You put in the grind and most people don't want to put in the grind.
Yeah, it's, you know, and I think what, you know, I'm bringing up a lot of that because I talk about like the niche and starting somewhere, you know, and really gaining that experience before you branch out. Right. Because like, yes, I'm a risk taker. I mean, obviously you're a risk taker. You've been self employed for 30 years now, CJ. Like, you know, and I'm just at five years of being self employed, but you know, I would rather roll the dice on myself than anybody else. But I also am very calculated with the risks that I take at this point. And I feel like if more people spent more time learning the blocking and the tackling the fundamentals of what they want to go after, I feel like more opportunities would truly come their way.
Because I don't feel like the one stop shop transportation provider is going to be a thing anymore. Right. Where it's just like, hey, we can do your air, Ocean, intermodal, ltl, ftl, you name it, send us our way, we're your guys. I don't see that's going to be a thing anymore. Especially with the advancements in technology that is out there. The ability for every manufacturer and customer out there to know where prices are, capacity, all of that stuff. And then on top of that, man, they're getting hounded at every given moment by other providers that are inside of there waiting for you to mess up.
Yep. And that side has even gotten crazier with the AI, right. I mean, you got, you know, bots that are calling you as if they're us. Like, like really? We looked at a system just last week or two weeks ago that literally it was phone calls from our voices that were going to our clients, talking to them, and it was very close to holy cow, this is scary. Like it's, it's a, it's a scary world in that sense. So yes, you want to be on top of it for sure.
How, like with, you know, speaking of that and the advancements in technology and everything, man, where do you see things going with this? Do you think that, because, excuse me, do you see this where if everybody's going to go to automation, you're going to go in the opposite direction and go back to how you probably started your business. Knocking on doors, building up the relationships that way, or are you going to leverage the video, like the menial tasks, right? Like the documentation processes and all of that stuff?
Yeah, I think it's going to be a hybrid, like you said. I think it's going to, I think relationships are going to matter more in the next 20 years, at least the next 10 years more than they've ever mattered. Right. Because we're all going to have that backend automation for tracking and tracing and maybe data entry and you know, importing documents, exporting documents, sending emails to hey Mr. Mr. Customer that this is delivering, then this is, oh, it's in real time, blah, blah. But I think there's still going to be a need for that communication of they're going to do business with people they trust and people they know.
So I do think we need to dive in and it worries me a little bit with the younger generation in the sense I see it, I've seen it for the last probably five or ten years and I see it with my own kids and their generation, group of, you know, they love their little phones and their little, you know, and getting on and everything is an email, a text, whatever it is. But I think there's going to be that 10 or 15 years we're still going to have that relationships that are going to be needed which is going to be, which is still our time, Chris.
I mean, you know, I don't think 20 or 30 or 40 years from now, maybe it's different, you know, but I think for now the next 10 or 15, it's going to be relationships, it's going to be communication, it's going to be picking up the phone saying hey, what is the idea? How can I move this? You know, what experience can I bring? With the automations we're doing now, we're seeing a lot of that in our space. We're helping a lot of customers now bring automation and bring AI into their space through our platforms.
Yeah, and I think like, you know, because an entrepreneur group that I'm in right now, you know, they're, you know, they talk about, you know, the Amazon effect, right? Like there's always going to be somebody with more funding that's out there. Like it's, there's way more of the people who are trying to fight for the top spot than there are the people at the top spot, right? So it's like if you look inside of the transportation industry getting up to that level, right where the multibillion dollar revenue companies, they're always going to be there, we're always going to be fighting that. But how do you compete with that, right? Like how do you deliver that, you know, opportunity as a small business owner or medium sized business to really gain that market share.
And for me, dude, it is going to be going back to the old school methodology that it is because I feel like if everybody is going to invest heavily inside of automation AI dialers and everything else. It's only a matter of time before manufacturers and shippers have an AI receptionist fielding every single inbound call. And then it's going to be bot talking to bot and there's going to be no deals that are going to be done. And it's going to be the people who are not afraid to go out and meet face to face, knock on doors and do what's necessary to actually stand out. Because otherwise man, it's just going to be bot to bot sales. And I don't really see a lot of progression being made with that.
Yeah, yeah, I was down and probably about three months ago I was in Dallas and I actually went in old school from 30 years ago. I actually knocked on a door of a, I saw a whole bunch of trucks and a dock and I actually knocked on the door and gave a business card and they couldn't believe because they're like, we have not seen anybody in like 10 years come knocking on our door. And that's how I got in the industry. You didn't have all this like LinkedIn or these, you know, connections even where you knew phone numbers.
You went, knocked on a door, knocked on the front door, had to work the receptionist or the front desk person, you know, you then you had to back door and maybe walking through the back door getting yelled at from the doc, what, you know, you shouldn't have been, that was, you know, that's what we did 30 years ago and it's changed. But I do agree with you. Yeah, I think there's going to be some of that possibly going forward where we're going to need to get back at that.
Yeah. And I mean I, you know, every time I see somebody post about how hard it is in sales and everything else and I'm just like, man, like do you think people just like willingly give you million dollar checks like just because you have a pulse, like where is the, you know, like of course the market is what the market is right now. Right. Like, yes, it, you could make every argument in the world that it's challenging and everything else and then you could just sit there and put your feet up and then tell your boss that, oh man, it's just too hard out there. I'm not going to do this, I'm not going to do this. But people are onboarding new providers all the time, you know, and it's like you cannot be afraid to pick up the phone.
I'm one of, you know, like, I prefer a cold call, man. I would Rather be told no over the phone and then save 87 hours of follow up in that moment where I can reallocate my time to a prospect who actually has some interest than going out there and just going after somebody and then just like. Because like with email and DMs man, it's just a non response, you know, like they just won't respond. You just keep following up and keep following up. I would rather be told no right away. So I know at least who not to go after. I don't know man, maybe it's just my public school education, but I would rather know what not to do, you know, and who not to go after.
Yeah, and I would say talk to everybody. That's the thing. I tell our sales team and my people on my staff, including you know, my lower level junior brokers, even talk to everybody. When you're out in your Christmas dinners, you're at your, you know, church groups, you're in wherever your little ball, your ball field, watching your kids go and talk about what they do, you don't have to go and try to sell anybody, just find out about because you'd be surprised. There's so much, I call it the old Kevin Bacon game where there's so many people that you already touch in your life that you don't realize that they have freight or they can introduce you to somebody that has possible freight opportunities. So you know, that's a key that I think people haven't always learned.
And it's kind of surprises me because you know, you got everybody, their mother coming over the top and trying to, you know, like, you know, like you said blast call or you know, forced to do business. But it's like just go make a friend, make a relationship, get involved in your chamber of commerce locally, get involved in your clubs, whatever it is, find out what people do and if they don't ask who they can maybe refer you to. And it's so funny, I just got a call last week from a fraternity brother that started his own company. He wanted to know about transportation. He knew that I was in, he knows that I'm in transportation and logistics. You know, I get calls from five years ago, a conference I went to. Cj, I remember you. I kept your card and here it is, right.
So it's like going out there and just being out. It can be as little as a CSCMP local group. You don't, you know, we're very big in Chicago. We with our CSCMP group, the Traffic Club of Chicago. When I travel I try to hit those as well from other. The New York Traffic Club I'm a part of. Just get involved, man. That's the key, is get involved. And you will find opportunities as they go.
I think networking, CJ is the one thing that I didn't do enough of early on in my career. But now that I own my own thing, man, I want everybody with a pulse to know what I do and. And what my company's about and everything. And I think that is probably. If there is anything that you need to focus on if you're in sales business, anything is networking. And I think, like, you need to double down and triple down on networking, getting out there. And, you know, there's a. There's a thing, though, where it's like, you can network the wrong way, you know? Like, I think you have to go in there with the mind of like, hey, cj, I'm Chris. How can I help you? Not, hey, cj, I'm Chris. What can you do for me?
And that's a big perspective thing that I think a lot of people need to really understand before they go in there and start talking to anybody. Because anybody who's ever accomplished a sliver of anything knows when they're getting bullshitted to. And that will end any possible deal that could ever happen if you go in there with the wrong intentions right away.
Yep. Yeah, that's totally. That's totally true. And that's exactly like I said. I market myself as match.com for business because I really. I really don't care if I. Even if I get business. It's more about, how can I help you? I can. How can I help? You know, you and Trey have been, you know, an example of what the new industry is as far as what you guys are doing. And it's like, how can I help, you know, anybody in any way? I mean, I've had people come to me and say, cj, how can I be more boisterous? I'm an introvert. And I'm like, you're really not. You just need to go put yourself out there and say, hello, I am who I am. And just introduce yourself by your name. And that's it.
Yeah.
You know, and it's not as hard as people think it. It seems like it is, but you just gotta. You gotta do. You just gotta do it, right. Yeah. And especially being a business owner, that's so key, is that networking. And that's. It's. Yeah. I can't say it enough.
Yeah. I. Man, I just think, like, it, you know, from my perspective, cj, a lot of the, you know, when, you know, I'm glad you like the introvert, extrovert thing. Right? Like, I'm an introvert when I'm at home, but I'm an extrovert when I'm working. Right. And I, and I've developed. There's a really good book called the Alter Ego. And I think people should go out there and read that one. But it is, it's being able to like, turn that on and off when you're out there. Because if you are an introvert, like, I mean, myself and like when I'm at home, dude, I don't want to talk to anybody. I want to hang out with my wife and my kids. I don't want to answer texts or anything like that. But, you know, this week I'm on the road, man. When I'm working.
And there's a different version of myself that's work Chris and home Chris. And I think that people need to explore that and try and really lean into that because no matter. It's always uncomfortable when you first get started. Right. Just like cold calling is uncomfortable when you first get started. But again, you're like, your action will cure all of your anxieties out there because what you'll come to realize, and I'm not saying anybody who's listening to this does not matter, but you're not as important as you think you are to the people that are out there that you're talking to. They got their own shit that they're worried about. Right. They got their own marriage boss breathing down their neck. They got all of that stuff. They're not thinking about you 30 seconds after you call them.
Right? Yep. Yeah. No, that's so true. So true.
So, you know, how have you, I want to talk a little bit more about how have you over the years continued to show up and execute when things looked bleak, you know, because I think like, there's a massive facade out there, cj, that like, you're just going to be successful no matter what just because you start a business or you start in sales. How have you continued to develop, to show up when things did not look like they're going to work out.
Yeah. I think you got to be open minded. You can't be so stubborn to say, hey, let's try this. Let's, let's do something different. You know, perfect example on the PWS side, you know, it started as a beer, wine and spirits, basically consolidated. We, I mean, that's still 70% of our product is liquor in that space. But I don't know if you remember, our original logo seven years ago was a beer, a wine, and a spirits glass. You know, and the beginning of COVID happened, and it was like everybody was like, we don't really have any of that stuff right now. I mean, people were drinking, but they were drinking different kind of stuff. And we had a pivot and went into drayage. We laid into drayage because that's what our clients and our people were asking for.
And we got really good at it over the last four or five years, where we're picking up probably in every major port every single day doing that work. Right. We had to listen. If we wouldn't have listened and we would just stay down the path during that time, you know, I don't want to ever say that we would not have been here, but I'm not sure, like, you know, there's. There's no reason to think that, oh, my God, were going to definitely continue on that path and be able to survive another, you know, few years without having the freight that, you know, was what we started from. So I think you got to be, like I said, open and honest with yourselves. And a lot of times people are not like that. Right. Things change. This business changes.
There's new technologies, there's new things that you can hear. And if you're not open to ideas and, like, at least trying them, then I think that's where you fail. You know, you got it. Like I said, it's a self check. I'm not always perfect and I'm not always right. If any time. There's times where I'm more often not right, but I like to throw it at the wall, see what sticks. Kind of, you know, kind of person.
Yeah, there. I mean, and I think, like, man, there's. There's so much uncertainty with all of it, right? But I think, like, you have to be in a constant state of assessment of, like, all right, if this isn't working, what do we got to do differently, you know? Or is it just we haven't been doing it long enough yet? Right. I feel like most individuals out there stop at the literal first sign of pushback adversity, and they quit way too early on it. But again, it's like, I think, you know, like one of the most simple pieces of advice out there, but another very effective one is. Is just, dude, if you just don't make the same mistake twice, I think you will be successful. By default in the long run. Right.
And, but that's like, I think it's when you go through that, learn what you did wrong, make this necessary adjustments, and then move forward.
Yeah. And the other thing that I preach a lot about and sometimes the, the elders, or let's say the people with the experience sometimes push back on me, is we're A pluses. You're an A plus in your mind. I'm an A plus in my mind. You're not going to get us off that.
Right.
We are that A plus. And our workers or managers are in their minds A pluses. Right? They're, they're the best. They are. And they are probably A's and A pluses, but in our minds they might be only the highest they can ever get to is B plus. Right. We have to be a little, be okay with a B plus in our minds, not their minds. They are A pluses, if you understand what I'm saying. Where we sometimes just think, oh, well, we can do it better, we can do it quicker. And that's the process of how you can grow. Because, you know, you can't go do other things until you know that things are done in the processes or in the, you know, the growth of that company. If you're not getting those people and trusting that they're doing a great job for you.
And yeah, maybe you're only making, you know, 15% instead of making, you know, 18% if you were doing it like, at the end of the day, you know what, you got to be okay with that or you're never going to be able to grow 100%.
No, dude, I'm right there with you. And those are those lessons that you learned after, you know, and this is the thing, man. Like that. How long did it take you to realize that you think, CJ?
Oh, 10 years. Plus. Like I said, if you would have known me 15 years ago, you would have think I was a main, I was a, probably a torture to the people from 2000 to 2010. I was probably a nightmare of a boss. But the last 15, now I'm CJ. The, you know, the old wise, I guess, dinosaur guess at this point, you know, but yeah, it's, I was a different person 15 years ago for sure.
And that's the thing, man. But that's just a testament to you actually, you know, again, learning what not to do and then making those necessary changes and keeping pushing forward. And that's just going to be The MO for anybody who wants to make it in any market inside of the transportation industry. Right? Like you cannot control that. Right. Just like we not can, we cannot control what goes on in the Oval Office, global trade, all that. We can't do any of that, man. But we can control what cards are dealt to us and how we attack that and try and move on from there, man. But cj, I appreciate your time.
I like to keep these shows kind of right at that 30 minute mark because everybody's got a day job, man, just like I got a day job, I got freight to move and everything else, man. But how does anybody reach out to you to find out more about what you got going on?
Feel free. I'm fall over LinkedIn, I'm all, you know, my email cjws-logistics.com I'm always available. You can find me at any conference. Typically, although I'm not going to be a tia, I apologize for that. I think the next one will be tmsa. I think it's Jennifer Karpis Remain. And she's great in her group, you know, but yeah, feel free. I'm always out here to have conversations, to talk, you know, don't come in trying to sell me off the bat. That's the worst thing you can do. Just come and be a friend first and see how I can, you know, help you in any way I can. I'm always here and everybody who knows me knows that about me and I'm fun. Meet me at the bar.
Cj, I appreciate it, man. And I can attest to that. CJ is a great guy. He's been, he's been really good to me over the years and you know, you guys need to hit him up and everything, but that's going to be it, you guys. We actually don't, we have a pre recorded show that we're releasing tomorrow because again I'm traveling down to Texas tonight and I got some customer site visits because I practice what I preach, you guys. I'm going out and knocking on doors tomorrow in San Antonio because I need to maximize my time when I'm out on the road and everything and drive as much revenue as I can. But we'll be back live on Thursday and Friday, you guys. As always, if you guys got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show.
If you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you should be, rank the show on itunes and Spotify because if you saw value, that's how your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon.
Take care, bud.
We'll see you.