Came back with a bank window down yelling now money in a day hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm getting to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them made them make a.
Bigger balls hey what is up ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the free Coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central to break down some industry headlines, but most importantly to provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show. And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve.
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And speaking of some really cool stuff, we're going to be talking about a topic today that I'm like, I'm surprised that this wasn't adopted a long time ago, but I am really glad that this guy is on it right now. And, and that's, you know, the digital bol. Like we're digital literally in every part of our life right now. Yet for some reason this document is kind of lagging behind that as an adoption industry wide. But these guys are going to change that. So I have Mr. Josh Kohler on the show today. Josh, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much for having me, Chris. It's exciting and definitely pumped to share more about what We've got going on at driver Doc and how we're changing the game as it relates to the bill of lading.
Dude, absolutely, man. So Josh, tell me, how did you get your start in freight? What brought you into transportation?
Yeah, so in a roundabout way, I'm actually classically trained accountant and IT auditor. And so had the, you know, happenstance thing come up where I actually needed to forfeit an audit with one of the largest auditing firms, kpmg, due to some family ties and things like that, with one of my large clients. And so ended up jumping ship and getting back into a passion I had throughout college was at UPS and you know, got opportunities to see freight part or the parcel shipping side, but took an opportunity after KPMG with Union Pacific and in their logistics side of the house.
Dude, I like it. So what's the. I mean, what's it like working on the rail like that? Like, I've never done it, you know, and I've had my friend Anne Reinke on the show before and you know, and it's an interesting segment of the industry. You know, it's literally in my opinion, outside of horse and buggy, it is the oldest transportation method that is still being used today inside of this country.
Yeah, no, and I think we're, you know, I think it was like my next stepping stone, right, to getting into logistics after jumping out of auditing. But the industry while fast. Yeah, it's like the trains have gotten faster, those types of things, paperwork and how things were being exchanged very much, you know, lagging like you said, you know, very old archaic type of space. And so, you know, even in the world of, you know, systems getting better and you know, technology improving, especially with the, you know, the likes of like the pandemic and those things and everything going force digital. That was a stop where I got to see things where yes, just this paper shipping experience was one of the biggest culprits and financial delays and operational delays.
And so yeah, it's an interesting thing of that, but also, you know, just that's where I started, but that's not where I ended my corporate career. I had an opportunity in the mid 20002016 time frame to get over to Warner Enterprises and help grow their logistics and intermodal capabilities. And what I started to discover really quickly was the same issue was prevalent with the paper bill of lading and so building technology to make that Faster inside a company worked really well, but it wasn't what was going to digitize the industry.
And I think that was the most eye opening thing for me to go from one of the largest rail companies like Union Pacific and one of the largest transportation companies like Warner Enterprises, and seeing that both areas struggled with that paper document and knowing then the more I touched shippers, the more that I touched some of the other parts of the space that it wasn't going away. It was very prevalently an issue.
No, and that's exactly it. Right. Like I look at it as, I mean, I remember when I first started, Josh, it was like, you know, the amount of times where people call in and they're like, hey, I need to verify this. You know, this bill of lading's wrong. There's like, there's so much that is on the, that's relying on the accuracy of that bill of lading, you know, being sent in. It's like, you know, keeping it easier for the drivers to stay organized because again, you know, it's easy for me to sit here and be like, come on man, send that over when I'm in a controlled environment inside of my office.
And yeah, you know, I'm not out there on the road and then keeping a lot of that stuff organized, you know, and I feel like back office automation and stuff like that for, you know, whether it's the driver, the broker, anything to keep that as accurate as possible. Because like, I'm convinced that there are not that many shippers manufacturers out there that don't want to pay you, but they have a process that they need to follow to make sure that their controller issuing right payment and they're billing their suppliers and everything else. It's not just you in that equation. So it's like for me, how do we get that more accurate? But most importantly, how do we get this done faster for everybody?
Yeah, no, and I think so. I think that's the interesting thing is everybody kind of has their own take on it, right? Shippers, transportation companies, brokers, they're all have, they're all tied to this paper documentation, but they all have their intricate problems with it. And I think the more that we've been out here now working specifically to solve the digital, you know, the paper bol issue for the past five years. And I think what, you know, gave us some eye opening at bats and experience through this process of trying to think about the best way to solve the problem was starting with driver scanning.
You know, I think as you talked about that administration, you know, expectation and definitely with drivers wanting to be driving and not having to be document scanners and those types of things that gave us an understanding that while the bol you know, you could take an image of it and get it going faster for the trucking company that really one wasn't a value add to shippers. Shippers weren't like, hey, I want to pay you faster. And so part of like what we're starting to better understand now is if we want a community based exchange. Right. Where both parties like shippers and transportation companies and brokers want to exchange this data is knowing that the shipper wants to stop printing out daily pickup packets.
Yeah.
And thinking about then if we can give them value. Just as much as trucking companies don't want their drivers managing documents or losing documents or having to scan documents in the cab anymore, is creating a value proposition that benefits both parties in a way where, okay, we no longer have to physically exchange paper. And I think that piece one is only even allowable to kind of solve today because most companies through their digitalization efforts are converting up, are getting better technology. Stacks are going from on prem as 400 mainframe type capabilities only to now fully cloud based TMS and API connectivity. And that's something where if you would have said solve this problem honestly 5 years ago when I left and I left Warner Enterprises in 2019, I would tell you it's impossible.
But with companies now embracing the digitalization and bringing their data online and bringing it into a cloud state and shareable experience, it's the best time now to really think about how people can actually then become more relatable with their data and achieve business problems. I think what worries me the most again with the buzz today really being a right, we're kind of AI a buzzword right now. I haven't heard of it.
What is, what is this AI that you speak of?
It's Matt, it's magic. And I think you know the crazy like experiences that I got, I think you know what I'm like, not just crazy but like the most like kept me level headed and logical in an approach like this was building technology at Warner around how to take business processes and make them more efficient and leverage what you would have called AI like business rules and things like that to drive the next step in the process. And I think what I'm worried about most is when I see others thinking about this problem is oh, we need to use AI to lift signatures off of paper documents. We need to use AI to read paper based documents.
And I think when you kind of, you know, peel that back and you look and understand more of, you know, the problems that are coming today, why fraud is exceeding and it's because fraud trucking companies, right, and maybe bad actors or broker bad actors, right, are getting into the process faster than like you can vet them. And when you have paper, people are using then that paper to edit them and PDF editors, right? And you know, doing things downstream that, where if you only apply AI downstream like that then to lift signatures, to lift, you know, off of paper based processes, that it's not actually solving this problem. And so with AI being the buzzword of the day, I think that's what I think.
Yeah, it's kind of an interesting way I think people are viewing how to solve problems with technology versus thinking about it. Immersing yourself into the business and really understanding how things work from a process perspective just before throwing AI at it.
Yeah, no, I mean it's very accurate, right? Every, everything that you're saying right now. And I feel like there's. With a lot of stuff for me, Josh, I feel like there's a just. And this is, I mean honestly man, this is like the premise of my show is it's a fundamentals based show, right? Like we are talking about the blocking and the tackling, the stuff that's never necessarily going to go away. But like if you overstep a lot of this and I feel like there's. Yes, I'm a massive fan of technology and I don't want to get what I'm about to say misconstrued out there, but I feel like there's too much technology being pushed too fast that ultimately when it boils down to it, people are just automating shitty processes at that point.
And then your automation, you think it's good, but it's actually, it just sucks because you never took a couple of minutes to actually find out. A, what if your customers, what are your customers actually requesting? B, what are your carriers requesting? I'm speaking from a broker standpoint. Yeah. What do they need? And then are you investing in tools that are actually making their lives easier or making their lives harder? And I feel like we're kind of at a crossroads out there, right? Because like I see a lot of tech that's out there in the industry right now, a lot of it. I'm not here to say anything's right, wrong or indifferent, but some of it that I see, I'm like, who's asking for this?
Because like again, I actually move freight just a little putting that out there, I don't see a lot of a need being asked from transportation providers about, hey, do you guys have this capability? And this capability and this capability? Don't get me wrong, there is a certain level that is applicable to, but I feel like people are kind of pigeonholing themselves because they think like, oh, if I buy this piece of tech, all of my problems are going to go away and it's just not the case. Right. But like one thing that I love about what you guys are doing the most is like this right here is something that touches every shipper out there. Every piece of product that is being moved across anything is on a bill of lading, right. At least legally, like I'll just throw that legally being processed.
And you know, and it's also like, you know, from an operational efficiency standpoint as well. I look at, you know, some of the shipments that we move, There could be 40 shipments a day being moved out of one facility, all the same commodity. Everything is the same and it's just one PO number different across there, right? It's a project based shipment and then somebody comes in and picks up a load that, you know, ends in four or five and then they were tendered for four and then it just causes a massive headache and everything. And it's like now everything, you know, from the digital aspect of it is it's just one quick keystroke at the shipper. They don't have to go and print off, you know, a rolled scroll to send out on a pigeon to get to the driver.
We can go and digitize this, send it out to the right parties or just make some quick keying errors, changes. Excuse me.
Yeah, no, and I think so. It's like what's crazy, I think the more we asked, right, I think like the more companies were getting involved as far as like either being like a collaborator, right? Like walking through some of the technology that we're going in. The roadmap to, you know, the partnership, the technology ecosystem partnerships we're forming. It's really, you know, I think bringing in the clarity of like this paper bol. Like what you're saying is like for inbound because you gotta look at it like kind of both ways. You've got inbound of like companies that are receiving product, right? And they're receiving that document which becomes a proof of delivery via paper. And you know, it's impacting their ability to do like their downstream process of intake and thinking about inventory reconciliation.
And part of where companies are starting to look at us from the regard of could you help with our claims process? Because they're saying, because this paper data is something I have to go back and look at or has handwritten notes on it and then I can't maybe consume that. They're missing out on how they work with their suppliers and making sure they take care of issues as they occur timely. And so I think the more we're uncovering like use cases like that just as much as, you know, just the traditional. I think where people think of is, you know, the dock worker having to sign it on an outbound load and a driver coming. You know, we've kind of said, well yes, that's what we're doing. We're physically taking that document and making it digital.
But what else can we do to drive and make that process more efficient? And quickly we're learning. It's like, hey, what if I could. Transportation companies are saying, could I give you identity around a driver? Yeah, could I give you the concept of this is the truck and trailer? And at the same time shippers are saying, hey, what if I could give you the yard spot or the dock door and could automate then kind of that check in process. Right. With this data now being more freed up, but also with a marketplace like our platforms providing is, yes, we'll exchange the bill of lighting, yes, we'll make sure all parties have it and capture the signatures and capture real time proof of delivery information.
But at the same time, can they also bring other data to exchange here and continue to make, you know, the pickup process more seamless? And I think, yeah, no to.
Say how is this kind of what? Because you know, obviously people have heard the term blockchain thrown out there, but it's kind of like since faded away with like you said that buzzword that nobody like AI. But I feel like isn't that what blockchain was essentially designed to do, Josh, was is to keep a lot of that organized out there and then you build up that profile. Because again, you brought up the claims process, right? Like there's again like this is the stuff that fires me up the most operational. Like I am so in like, I am so into like operational efficiencies. How do we build out profiles for each individual customer about how they operate? Because again, in my opinion as a broker, I need to make my customers life easy and I need to make my carrier's life Easy.
And that's what the literal definition of a broker is. And it's like every single customer processes claims differently. Every single customer processes billing differently. How do we have this to make it as easy as possible across the board? And I feel like that's kind of like one of the reasons why people might want to stop working with you is if you can't bill them properly or if you can't tell that story about like, hey, this is what happened with this, you know, damaged product. Here's all the photos, here's the bill of. Here's the person who told us that all of. Keep all of that organized. That's where things get dicey.
Yep. No, and I think so. It's like, instead of saying words like blockchain, I like to use the words like standard. Right. Standardization and that kind of concept of, you know, I think for the last like 60 years, a lot of companies have leveraged EDI to exchange data. And everybody has their own little thought of EDI setup. Each shipper is like, hey, you have to do it this way if you want to do business with me, Mr. Trucking Company or transportation company. And so part of that is, yes, it could be blockchain, right. But it's really more of standardizing the way the data needs to be shared and exchanged to create that capability to say, here's a foundation. If you trade data this way, look how much faster things can go downstream upstream and us be more relational, if that makes sense.
And so whether ultimately it is blockchain or not, the concept of standardization. And so I know there's groups that have come out, standardization groups like the National Motor Freight Traffic association, you know, pushing, you know, standardized ebol. There's, you know, different industries like the rail and shipping side, more of the Digital Shipping Standards association or, sorry, Container Shipping Standards association. And each are trying to create that standard. And so part of this is we don't want to reinvent this. We think these standards groups are like, for the first time putting it where it needs to be in this thought of JSON and API type of driven. But there still needs to be a guide and a gateway to bring everybody together. And so that's where the pulse platform starts to nestle itself in, is to say, hey, we're going to leverage these key standards.
And if you're already adopted a standard, our platform already helps maintain that, manage that, and you can exchange your data that way. We just want to make sure that your parties can be enabled on the platform, can move their data and can exchange it this way. And so that's where we think our niche becomes, is enablement and helping drive adoption with standards.
Yeah, I think. How do we do that, though? How do we as an industry? Because again, we're in a free market, as you know, Josh, when you start a business, there's going to. It's only a matter of time before there are multiple competitors who are out there. So how do you do that? And especially in an industry that is as fragmented as the transportation industry, right. We got a ton of owner operators out there, a ton of independent brokers, all of that stuff, and then again, a ton of independent manufacturers and supplier, all of that stuff out there. So how do you get a universal adoption of like, this is the standard, this is how it's done moving forward?
Yeah, no, I think a lot of it stems from the way you incentivize and value. Right. Value creation through a platform. I think as you consider the groups that you mentioned, like owner operators. Right. And again, today's pragmatic world of, again, if there's more people able to get in and then create friction because of fraud. Right. And those types of things, I think it will become the parties that embrace technology and also embrace the willingness to exchange data in a compliant fashion. We'll get more opportunities.
And so I don't look at it as it's only an enterprise value proposition, but it becomes those that see the value and also want to be a collaborative participant to see this efficiency take flight are going to be the ones that ultimately stay around, get the value, aren't challenged in a way where, hey, sorry, if you're, if you can't use data and technology, then we can't do business. I think I also, I really look at the people that are going to maybe want to push the technology the most. Right. And I think a lot of that is, you know, the shipping community who are wanting to see a little more transparency than maybe what they're getting.
And I know, like, we haven't even mentioned like the asn, the advanced shipping notice, but I think that's what we're really uncovering with some of this is people, you know, have this expectation, you know, yes, they're getting a little bit of communication about who the driver might be. Right. When it might arrive, but getting the ultimate understanding of this. What is what got loaded in the trailer, I think is what's driving some of this. And, you know, I think the surprises that are occurring still today of, hey, this is what I ordered and all of a sudden this is what I got. Because again the paper is not digital. There's too many surprises, too many things and again you can't throw enough of those AI type things down. And so I look at it is that it's not just a shipper forced product.
But I do think like the shipping community at large is saying this paper document is, is creating an issue but also it's the lack of connectivity, it's the lack still of visibility to what gets put in the freight when it leaves the supplier.
Yeah man, it's going to be, it's interesting, right? Like I feel like we're at a really good crossroads right now with a lot of stuff, right? And I feel like, you know, it's just like all the individuals out there who are like, oh, the digital broker is never going to become a thing. I as a broker think that's a complete bold faced lie. I think it's only a matter of time before somebody develops the right technology that it does work at scale. And I feel like, yeah, you know what, if you look out over the next 20 to 30 years you're gonna, you're extremely naive or I would even go as far as to extremely ignorant to think that like is just going to look the same. It's only a matter of time, right?
Like there's a ton of very smart people out there who are developing stuff at all times. And you know, I feel like it's going to come to a point here and I'm not going to sit here and say like, oh, brokers are going to be replaced. No, but bad and mediocre brokers are going to be replaced. Like just like there's going to be bad and mediocre people that are going to be replaced across every industry here as technology continues to advance and you have to be open to a lot of that stuff. And you know, again, if you're a good hard worker out there, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Honestly. Like if you're a hard working individual, you got nothing to worry about long term. But I feel like, are things going to look differently? Absolutely, they are.
Yeah. And I think, I mean it's just to the point of when you take a stance and look at the, just how fast people are adopting and to your point of, you know, new innovation is occurring, I think that's where brokers and owner operators have the best chance, right? Is adopting Those new technologies, right. Embrace, Embracing the change. I think I go back to. And again, as I started this, my biggest pain point was when were doing document scanning, right? Was, well, my 65 year old driver's not going to download your app and take pictures of this document.
Yeah.
And I, and I look at it this way and I, and you know, these are small trucking companies that were working with first. And I would just say, you know, I, I'm not here to get in the way of, you know, you causing friction with your driver. But I think as a business owner, right, and as someone that says, hey, you know, having my bill of lading to me and being able to invoice a customer, you know, two, five, seven days faster, you know that's a dramatic change in cash flow for your company. And, and I think that's where part of this goes, right? Is I can't sit here and say, well, the truck's never going to get fully autonomous. I don't know, it might, right? Like I, who knows, right? Or it might be, you know, I.
Think, yeah, I'm right there with you. Right? Like to sit here and say throughout my life that it'll. Something will never happen. I don't know about that, man. There's a lot of that's happened here these last couple of years. And you know, again, I, I think that there are going to definitely be some parts that are going to look very different as years continue to come down. But, you know, that's what's exciting about it, right? And that's what it, that's what's exciting about a free market and the society that we live in is, man, there's a lot of opportunity that's out there if you want it. But Josh, that is, that's going to be it for today, man. Dude, I'm gonna have to have you back on.
You're like, I love talking about this stuff because, you know, at the end of the day, it's, there's so much that's out there. It's not always about how do I sell. And yeah, it's a big component of it, but there's a lot of stuff that you gotta be on the forefront of and see kind of what's coming down the pipeline. But dude, how does anybody reach out to you to find out more about what you got going on?
Yeah, yeah, reach out to DriverDoc, I.o. Or website or on LinkedIn, our company's webpage or company page. There's. And definitely, you know, I. I want this. You know, I want people to think of, you know, our approach to the fully digital bill of lading is it's very collaborative and. And something that if you've got questions and want to talk more and how you can be involved, pilot test, start to try out some of the technology. We want to hear from you.
I love it, man. Sounds good. And if you can't find Josh for whatever reason, hit me up. I will gladly put you guys in contact with him, but that is going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen. As always, if got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. If you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you should be, rank the show as well on itunes and Spotify because that's how your network's going to see value. And if you saw value, chances are your network's going to see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys and we'll be talking to you soon. No, no, Cool. Outro, Josh. We're just. We just end.