Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them hate them Make a bigger balls.
Hey what is up, ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the Freight Coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation, coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central, to break down some industry headlines. But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show.
And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve, so you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. Happy Tuesday, everybody. Sorry, we're a few minutes behind schedule. Your boy actually books freight as well on top of this. And that's what we got to do out here, you guys. We make stuff happen. And speaking of making stuff happen, my guest today, you know, it's funny, I actually got to know him really right when I started creating content and doing all this stuff five years ago now.
And it's kind of a full circle moment for me today. I'm really looking forward to speaking with him and, you know, his journey in the industry and, you know, building up his company, everything. So with that being said, I have my man Anthony Kochl on the shore. Anthony, thank you so much for joining me.
Yeah, Chris, I appreciate you having me.
Really excited to be here, man. Absolutely. It's like I said, it is a full circle moment. I remember, you know, we used to talk, you know, pretty frequently kind of early on and, you know, were staying in touch about things and dude, it's just great to have you here today.
Yeah, it's pretty wild. I don't, I don't do a lot of these things and when the opportunity presented itself, I jumped because, you know, we, we met a while ago now with sort of this idea of what were going to do and, you know, sort of like taking over the world, right? Thinking in the brain style and I think it was, it's really cool to see what you've done. We've been, you know, sort of has been a lot of fun along the way. So it's really cool to see it full circle of this is what we wanted to do and oh man, we actually kind of did some of those things, which is cool, dude.
And that's the thing man is I feel like with a lot of stuff, Anthony, it is just starting. You know, most importantly it's just starting and it's just getting out there and just understanding that like it's going to take so much longer than you want. It's going to be so much harder than you think. But, but it is, dude. Just breaking it down on a day by day basis and really attacking it that way. So before we get into any of that stuff, man, like how'd you get your start in transportation, Anthony? What brought you into the industry?
Yeah, so I mean I'm, I'm pretty much a lifer, I guess you could say. You know, I, I, I grew up in the space. My old man's probably got one of the older running, you know, brokerages that are out there. You know, he's a mid-80s start, you know, so I've, I've really grown up in the space. You know, I still remember going to the post office on a Saturday morning and you know, he was, you know, collecting checks or at least hopefully that there were some checks in the P.O. Box. And you know, it's funny, I remember him, he'd show me, you know, one of the checks or something like that, like wow, that's a lot of money. Like we must be doing okay.
And at the time I didn't realize that there was this thing called cost of goods sold and overhead and SG&A expenses. So it wasn't all take home pay. But so I've been in and around it for my entire life and when I sort of came out of college, worked at a big four accounting firm, sort of getting some real world knowledge, so to speak. And then not soon after that, my brother had already started sort of a brokerage business and just said hey, I know we've talked about this but we're growing and it's time. So went over, joined him and that's sort of where, you know, we came into it. And then maybe fast forward a couple of years when we, you know, when we met were sort of Making some decisions about, you know, growth and where were going.
So sort of how I got here.
No, dude, I like. And, and that's the thing, man, is coming up and growing up in the industry was. It was your dad like, did he tell you like, hey, go try something else before you come into this?
So yes, he vehemently said, go be a doctor, be a lawyer, go do anything else but this crazy business. But I think for us it was just like I saw the passion in what he did and he never missed any sporting event. My brother and I, we played a lot of years of football even in the college ball. He had nine years of travel for weekends of even our college ball. Just never missed a thing. Did it all, you know, sort of while being, when he needed to do. He was, he was remote, you know, but it was really cool to see him sort of grind, right? And really was a respected person within the community, was a well loved person in the community. And what he was able to do for his clients was just, you know, sort of infatuating to me.
So, you know, I'm actually a cpa. I think I'm, you know, inactive or whatever they call it now. But I, I always knew I was going to come back to this space. I, I wanted to gain some real experience so I could bring it back and sort of apply it within, you know, our business use case. But I don't know, it's one of those things that once it's in your blood, right?
Yeah, dude, that's the, that's the truth, man. Like I, I can't see myself doing anything but this at, you know, at this point in my life and just kind of like on the trajectory of where things are kind of trending and heading. It's. Man, I just have too much fun. And like I was talking to my wife about this last night. Like I'd be miserable doing anything else, you know, like I would, you know, like, I feel like I'm on the right trajectory to kind of make stuff happen and everything. And like, you know, kind of like what I was saying, it's taking longer than I had thought. But like, man, I have never felt more fulfilled than kind of where I'm at right now. And you know, so like, how have you guys really been attacking these last couple of years?
Because you guys have kind of taken on like, you know, a rebrand, like a, you know, different kind of growth trajectory and everything. So kind of like walk me through Some of that, yeah.
So I think, you know, as were talking about sort of getting into the industry and really around the time that you and I sort of connected, Chris, that's when we started were. That's when we started to make sort of decisions about what does this look like? Right. You know, we're having some success. It feels like it's a good thing and you know, we're having a lot of fun doing it, but, you know, what does that mean? And I think that, you know, we sort of sat down and had a conversation of, all right, are we a lifestyle business or are we a growth vehicle?
And you know, I think, you know, from the stakeholders within, you know, our company, you know, we didn't want to just be a, you know, small, you know, sort of like family run shop for the rest of our lives. So we said, listen, let's go at this thing. And I think at that point in time is when we looked at, you know, we already started, we had a strong niche, you know, within what were sort of doing a lot of like, you know, mission critical, sort of, you know, high value, high priority freight, you know, not terribly dissimilar to what you guys sort of play. And, you know, and so we had already had sort of something to say within that space. And I think that we took that and just made it more aggressive. Right.
You know, we found ways to monetize and you know, one of the strategies was, you know, grow through M and A. You know, we've done two transactions. I sort of, you know, set up our M and A strategy of, you know, what we look for. And you know, I remember that's sort of one of the first conversations that we had, you know, but we've done two deals since 2020, 2021, 1 in 21, 1 in 23. And you know, that's been a really fantastic way of growing and we've learned a lot through that experience, you know, and we're enjoying it. And I think the organic side is really exciting. What we're working on today.
Yeah, it's. How, how did you guys decide about kind of going down the acquisition route? You know, like, I just had a, you know, a guy yesterday on the show. We were talking about M and A inside of transportation this year. And, you know, it's kind of one of those things where, you know, does it reach a certain point where you're like, hey, our growth, you know, because if you just look at, from a customer acquisition strategy, Excuse me out there right now, it's kind of slim pickings, you know, like it's not what it used to be. Does it kind of get to that point where you're like, hey, let's buy an existing customer or buy an existing operation that has the footprint that we want as opposed to us taking the route of just organically building it?
Yeah. So it's interesting. I think every business is a little bit different, right? You know, sort of the classic buy versus build, you know, mentality of, you know, what are we going to do? And I think for us you just, you look at, you know, your strengths, your weaknesses and you figure out, you know, what's the best way to plug that. And I think what we set out to do was to build, you know, a robust platform of best in class niche service providers that we're able to cover various different parts of, you know, the industry in different ways.
So you know, CODIS Transportation, which is, you know, CODIS holdings, and then underneath CODIS holdings is, you know, you've got CODIS Transportation Freight brokerage that really plays in mission critical, you know, Spaces Solver, which is the entity that I run, which is like a location agnostic warehousing distribution company. You know, we're all non asset based, right? No, no assets to be had within our entity. And then we looked at those things and said, okay, where are gaps? Right? And then how do we fill that? And a lot of our gaps came from what our customers were naturally asking for, right? You know, you say no enough to your customers. We don't do that. And it's like, all right, well how about we find a way to say yes? And you look at it and say, is this value accretive?
Is this something that makes sense? You know, does it dilute our margin profile? Does it dilute what our sort of like core principles are? And you know, I think from there we said if there are businesses that are out there in the market, we want to have an opportunity to look at them. And you know, Standard Freight was the first deal that we did back in 21. Sort of a specialty freight brokerage that does a lot of, you know, heavy equipment, pipeline construction, things of that nature. And then really the most recent gap that we filled was more of a larger LTL and more traditional van and truckload player, but still specialty and end user markets within that space. So in both of those instances we looked and said there's value to be had with going out and buying these businesses.
They made Sense at the time, as opposed to building it from the ground up. It would have been way more labor intensive and capital intensive to do it ourselves, dude.
Because it's like, man, because just from like where I am in business, like, I hear a lot of that stuff, man. And I'm also like, you know, you probably, you'll understand this more than most about like that beginning and that building stage of a lot of it and you know, kind of the frustrations that come along with it. Because when you put everything on the line and when you do all of that, you know, I kind of reach that decision of like, do we just invest in it? Do we take that risk? Do we buy existing systems and everything? And you know, one of the things that, you know, a little habit I've picked up on is, you know, reading books. Shocker. I know. But that is one of those things that they really talk about a lot in there.
And it kind of sounds like you guys, have you guys identified that, you guys have started rolling that out now. Is this a long term strategy for you guys? Do you think, Anthony, where it's like. Or is, it's like, hey, we know the companies that we would want to have them join the family here and then we stick with that. Or are you guys exploring opportunities at all costs? And I understand that question might be kind of proprietary on your strategy, so you don't have to answer it, but it's no.
So I think for us, right, we're always talking about some very simple sort of like overarching themes, right? It's value creation, value expansion. It's, you know, paying attention and making sure that we're paying attention to execution risk, right? Spending time on the things that we should be spending time on, saying no to the things that we shouldn't be, you know, working on. So I think for us, the strategy can change. It can change really quickly. I think, you know, anybody that tells you that, you know, you sort of like set it and forget it is crazy. You're not going to last too long. So you kind of have to take what the market gives you, right? Evaluations are crazy high and we can build something, then that makes a lot of sense.
If we can acquire a business that ultimately adds value, you know, maybe in a low interest rate market or something like that, you know, that makes sense as well. So I think for us, as long as we're adding value, adding, you know, whether it's organic business or inorganic business, that adds to our bottom line, we're interested in doing It. So, you know, pulling the veil a little bit back. I mean, we've always got something that's in the hopper, right? I think that if you have an M and A strategy, you know, you want to have, you know, options, right? And, and you know, who some of those businesses are that might add a lot of value to you, right? But that seller may not be ready to go or, you know, maybe there's a partner that's not interested or something of that nature.
So I think the thing that people don't realize within, you know, sort of like the deal space and the M and A space is that there's a lot of things that take you to pencils down, you know, a lot of different things that are out there. So, you know, just when you think you're on the, you know, the goal line and you're about to punch it in, you know, something crazy happens and then all of a sudden you have to be ready to. You sort of hang it up and look around. So it's not an easy way of going about things, but we've got a really good stable full of folks in our corner helping us.
Yeah, it's. Man, I love hearing that response kind of from your seat, right? Because like, I've had a lot of, you know, like I said, I just had a guy yesterday on the show who, you know, facilitates M and A and everything. And it's like, it's. I know of a few other companies, you know, buddies of mine who have went out and acquired, you know, businesses and stuff to kind of roll up inside of their. Their company. And, you know, it's interesting to hear that, you know, from somebody who's, you know, a actually done it here recently and somebody who doesn't really rule that out in the long term as a growth lever for their business.
And I think, like, you know, that's one of those battles that allowed a lot of founders come in, especially in the, you know, I always say it's a real world and I say like the bootstrap kind of people who have built these businesses up that don't just weren't just given a check from venture or private equity to kind of go out there and build. Like, you know, that I'm talking the nuts and the bolts of it. It is that build versus buy thing. Like, you know, what. What do we do here? At what point do we reach that? Or, you know, because it's like customers are coming at us now with different requirements and different needs. Than kind of the old school way.
So like, is it just, is it a strategic conversation that a lot of people should be having as you're going out there and looking to kind of grow over the next 24 to 36 months?
So I think one thing that, you know, I see a lot of that, my advice would be to, you know, sort of sellers or business owners that are out there is to have a strategy and continuously reevaluate that strategy and make sure that you're moving along that path. Right? If somebody calls you up today and says, hey, I'd like to buy your business, it's probably a good idea to have answer back to that. Maybe it's, I'm not ready, but I'm interested. Let's keep in touch or whatever. But I think just really understanding what your strategy is, what your long term strategy is, and then, you know, there's a, what is it, a Kenny Rogers song? You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them, right? So, so that actually, you know, plays true.
Sometimes it may not be the ideal time right in. In a seller's life or whatever it is, but when that door come, you know, when somebody comes knocking at the door and it's the right deal, you know, it's a good idea to at, you know, sort of option is. And that's, you know, I, you talk a little bit about, you know, raising capital versus bootstrapping versus a number of different ways to do it. You know, I don't have a problem with the way that anybody does it. I think that if you know what your capital structure is, you know, what the needs of your business are, there's a bunch of different ways to go out and do it. Some people have to build it and grow really fast, you know, others can do it a little bit more methodically.
So there's always something in the middle there.
Dude, ain't that the truth, man? And I feel like, you know, at least from my perspective, like I'm not ever anti, you know, exploring all opportunities out there for growth inside of my business. My, you know, because like my main goal, Anthony, is it's freedom and it's owning myself, right? Like that is my ultimate goal is I want to own me. All right? And I'm not saying, like, I'm not going to surround myself with smart people who can help me through a lot of situations, but when it boils down to it, at the end of the day, I don't Want to have to answer to anybody. And, you know, we all answer to somebody in. In the long run, right? Whether it's our customers and that.
But, like, I don't want somebody in my ear who's gonna, like, essentially tell me, no, you're doing this, because I am the controlling interest of this organization, and this is just the way it's going to be. Call it whatever you want, but that's just. That's just the way that I want to approach this.
I think every entrepreneur has a little problem with authority, at least to some degree, right. You know, you want to be able to control your own future, and, you know, it's like going back to my. My old man, right? You know, do something else. Do. Do this, you know, get out of this crazy industry. But, you know, I think for me, it shaped a lot of the. The person that I. That I am, right? You know, to be able to, you know, have a little bit. I mean, I don't take a lot of time off. You know, even when I'm vacationing, I'm probably still active in what's going on. But, you know, it affords me a lot of freedom to be, you know, available to my family, which is, you know, first and foremost, the most important thing.
But it also, you know, it keeps me. It keeps me moving, keeps me really active. You know, when you feel like what you're getting out of the business, you know, is. Is a. Is a function of what you put into it. That's. It's a lot easier to wake up in the morning and put your. Put your pants and your shoes on. I assume you probably got a shirt on as well, but it's a lot easier all day. You got to have the freight coat, shirt on, right? So. So I think that's sort of like the mentality and it's exciting for. For. For us. And I think it's really exciting to sit down across from somebody else that's been in this industry for a while that's sort of having those conversations internally. So we're having fun doing it.
I love it, man. So, dude, how are, like, one thing. I think, you know, as I'm out there developing business, you know, like, I've used this line often. I don't. I want my customers to be able to look at their transportation or logistics spend as a growth lever for their organization, right? And that's one thing where it's like, I want them to be able to come back and be like, hey, I onboarded Chris in July. And then our profitability Increased because of how he took care of our customers and stuff like that. So like, how are you guys going through that kind of, you know, strategy, you know, strategically thinking about how do we really separate ourselves out there?
Yeah, that's a really good question. I think that's something that you have to be almost maniacal about as it pertains to, you know, how you're presenting yourself to your customer, how you're aligning yourself. I think we talk about, you know, aligned incentives a lot. Right. You know, it's one of those things that if we call them perverse incentives, right. If there's a misalignment between a customer and us or the vendor or whatever it is, you know, that's a recipe for disaster. So I think for us, we, you know, we sort of have an enterprise wide approach, right.
You know, we're, I don't want to necessarily say that we're, you know, whale hunting, but you know, we have a, you know, a different model, sort of, you know, enterprise model where we don't have a lot of sales reps, we have a lot of company top down driven sales goals and we like the larger clients that are mission critical. So I think for us it's about finding the right partners, right? The folks that see value in what we're doing. And then you get into this sort of, you know, Goldilocks phase of, you know, alignment of incentives.
And then, you know, even for us we align some like the, you know, the social benefits of it where what we do reduces miles traveled, it reduces, you know, sort of touching, you know, whatever the freight is, right, because we take things from, you know, purchase order, you know, coming through the manufacturer, you know, down in, through maybe temporary storage and ultimately all the way to, you know, a job site, you know, for, from a delivery standpoint. So all along that supply chain you want to create value and make sure that you've got a sort of metrics driven approach to what your clients want. And I think for us, mission critical, high value, high priority freight things where if you don't show up on time, it's a problem. Right. You know, somebody's coming for liquidated damages, there's real upset.
Yeah, dude, it's, you know, it's a different world out there. And that's why I, you know, it's another one of the reasons why I tell people to choose a niche and stay inside of said niche and really double down on that. Like you Know, yeah, there's a lot of opportunity that's out there. You know, I get the paralysis of, like, well, we have to offer everything or nobody's going to want to work with us. And, you know, I always try and tell people, again, take this for what it's worth. This is just somebody who's out there actively cold calling prospects and shippers every single day. The heart, the highest return on my outreach right now has been singular sales focus. It has not been how I was kind of brought up in this industry of, hey, offer everything, we can do everything.
And then, you know, that's different when you're working for a top five broker out there who literally has departments for everything. But, you know, depending on the size of the organization that you're working for or the size of the organization that you're trying to build, I have just found a greater ROI from kind of that singular sales focus and really pushing that message out there about like, hey, I'm really just calling to a, introduce ourselves. B, do you use this in C? If not, like, I'll take you off my list, you know?
Yeah. And I think it's sort of like an old, you know, jack of all trades, master of none. You know, we subscribe to that. Right. You know, anytime that you can specialize in something and really develop a name within a specific industry, it's a lot easier to, you know, go and sell and put a white paper in front of somebody and say, hey, you know, you're doing this. I've done my research. I know what you guys are building or what your plans are. We've done this. We think that aligns really well. And so it's a much easier conversation because it's not as much of a. Of a cold conversation. A lot of our, A lot of our sales come from, you know, word of mouth, right? You know, just somebody saying, hey, we use these guys. You should, you should use them as well.
So I think that's been sort of a really helpful thing. And I think that when you don't specialize, you really run the risk of a lot of, you know, trying something new.
Right.
When you're not sure of how to grow, right? You know, say a brokerage hits 10, $20 million in revenue, it's like, okay, well, how am I going to get to the next one? Right? I'm listening to all these people out over the Internet saying growth and this and that. How am I going to grow? I think what I've seen through our M and A strategy actually quite a bit Is that going after what we call indefensible new revenue. So we'll see the sort of methodical growth where somebody's built a business really well over the past several years and all of a sudden you have this huge spike in revenue. But you have this huge spike in revenue and then you have this outsized investment or it takes way more people to run into your SG and A and your overhead is way higher.
So it's like, well, yeah, that's great. You went from $20 million to $30 million in top line revenue. So that's exciting stuff. But you actually were decreasing your value of your business because it wasn't something that increased at the same rate. Right. You know, as you grow, you should be able to remove some of that overhead or at least ultimately rationalize it so that it grows in tandem as opposed to growing where you're decreasing your expenses. So we see that a lot and I think that those are the ones that have an issue with where we. An LTL company. Are we a truckload company? Are we open deck or closed? You know, pick something and start moving and working hard.
Yeah, I'm right there with you, man. And I see that. You know, it's like I just it to me, I look at, you know, the top 10. I just saw something the other week about the top 10 flatbed carriers that are out there and they like cumulative, they're like $5 billion a year in revenue right there. Like, why do you need to do anything else? You know? Like honestly there's so much opportunity that's inside of that vertical. Like, oh, you're telling me you're going to pass up $100 million a year company? No, you won't. So it's like I just feel like for me, simplify, be able to do like I'm just rambling here. You got to simplify your process. You can really streamline your operations and then amplify your outreach. Right.
Because it so much more effective to go out there when you're selling on a core competency. And then from an operations and an execution standpoint, you want your people doing the exact same thing day in and day out. Because again, it's like, you know, as technology improves and everything inside of this industry, you're going to be able to put out more with less. At the end of the day you're going to be able to put way more output out there. Like, dude, I just look at it back in the day, like were booking 15 to 20 loads a day as one carrier rep, right. Like, but it was all 15 of the exact same weight commodity, all of that stuff.
So it's like I'm looking out there, I'm like, damn man, I could probably hit like 30 or 40 a day with technology now, you know, And I'm looking like, how do we stay lean? How do we make sure we have a system in place where all of our people remain profitable?
Yeah. And again, it's tough to do it, but I think once you gain some of those efficiencies, right. You know, if you're an agent model, be the best agent model that you can be. If you're sort of an enterprise model, be the best that you can be at it. And I think for us, we like to go into situations where it's, you know, non conforming, you know, whether it's really high stakes of delivery. But it's all big, large, expensive sort of, you know, highly engineered equipment and they're some of the most visible pieces of equipment. Right. We like to say that we're the closest point of contact to the end user and oftentimes to the customer. So you know, we take that job really seriously.
And I think that we can develop a lot of customer sort of, you know, points with being able to manage a lot of those things. So, so we like that stuff, right? You know, where one shipment is, you know, it requires a double drop stretch, you know, or RGN or something like that. And the next one is just, you know, three or four transformers that need to be on site at a certain point in time. Each load is a little bit differently or is a little bit different. But you're constantly building some of those sort of habits within your organization that are ultimately gonna help you win.
Yeah, and that's what it is to me, man. It's like this isn't, as me and one of my buddies constantly say, like, this isn't just a job, this is my profession. This isn't a hobby. This is what I do. And I know you might feel this way, but I know I feel this way. It means something to me that my name's on the wall. It means something to me that it's my brand that's out there and that's people's perception of the company that I'm trying to, you know, I look at it as, man, like the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years, somebody from my company is going to be reaching out there and I want to have as much of a positive brand association that I possibly can.
Because at the end of the day, man, you can lose people for life based on the way that you operate. And just that association that your company. I mean, I saw it so many times early on in my career, and now that it, you know, again, it's my brand that's out there. I want to do as much as I can to have as much of a positive influence as the direction and kind of the perception of my company out there.
Yeah, I think maybe you've answered one of the questions of like, you know, when. When is a good time, right? You know, for maybe a, you know, seller. Getting back to some of that topic. Well, when you're having that question and you're not adding that value or concern that you're diluting your brand, you know, or you're trying something that you're uncomfortable with, like, that might be a good time to, you know, sort of have that conversation. Because you're right? Every. Every day it's. It's a thankless job, right? You know, when you do a great job, nobody's going to tell you that you did. It's just. That's what you were supposed to do, right? That's what I'm paying you for. When you do a bad job, everybody knows about it.
So I think every day you have to really defend that brand, that logo that sits behind you and make sure that you're bringing on the right people that are. That are pushing in that direction and get rid of the ones that, you know, that aren't right. You know, it's. It's tough, you know, sort of recognize that, but we found a way to do it. And, you know, like I said, we're. We're enjoying the ride of it, as stressful as it can be sometimes, but we're enjoying it.
Dude, I wanna. And I know we gotta wrap up here, but, like, that just reminded me of a quote that I heard this morning. It was Warren Buffett quote. It says it takes 20 years to build a reputation in five minutes, ruin it. If you think about that, you'll do things differently. And then he also has another one about, you know, like, he can handle people losing money, but if you ruin my reputation, I will ruin you. Actually, Warren Buffett is savage. He's not, he's not that nice old man that he likes to portray. He's out there. He gets stuff done. But it's the truth, man. Your reputation is everything.
Your reputation is. Is, Is absolutely everything. And I Say this all the time, right? If you're gonna make mistakes, make him at a million miles an hour. Right? You know, if you're working hard and you have the idea and the goals of the company in mind, I'm gonna back you know, to the day I die. But if you're ultimately messing with reputation in the brand, right, like, that's just a non starter. Those are the things that you can bring you down in a quick second, dude.
Amen to that, man. Anthony, thank you so much, dude. This flew by. I knew it was going to. You guys got to go out there and connect with Anthony, follow his companies and everything. They're, they're doing the right things out there. You guys, I, I'm very grateful to be able to have you on this show today, man. Thank you for joining. How does anybody reach out to you to find out more about what you guys got going on, man?
Yeah, no, I mean, it's 2025. If you want to find me, you can probably find me. There's, there's LinkedIn, there's ways to find me, especially the ones that really want to. So I'm out there. But no, listen, Chris, this is, this has been fantastic. It's so fun to see your growth and I'm appreciative for you having me on here and talking a little bit of shop. We got to do this again sometime.
It's a lot of fun. Whenever you want, Anthony, you just let me know. We'll make it happen. But that is going to be it for today, ladies and gentlemen, as always, if you got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. If you're feeling really ambitious after this one, which you should be, rank the show on itunes and Spotify because that's how your network is going to see value. Because if you saw it, chances are they're going to see it as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys and we'll be talking to you soon. We don't have any cool outro stuff, man. We just.