Came back with a bank window down yelling now money anything hey oh Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when I'm get to the back hey Got the foot on the gas pedal to the metal when the lane moving fast hey Let them all cross if they hate then let them make a bigger balls hey what is up, ladies and gentlemen? We are back. We are live. It is the Freight Coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 8:30am Pacific, 10:30 Central, to break down some industry headlines. But most importantly, you guys provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I say that before every single show.
And what I mean by that is I only speak with transportation professionals because at the end of the day, you guys, I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve, so you can take that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. Happy Tuesday, everybody. We've got a very special guest for you guys here. We're going to bring him up in one second. I do have to make a little bit of announcement. Newsletter every single week, go to thefraycoach.com all right? It will auto prompt you to register for it. It drops every single Wednesday, which is tomorrow. All right? We're expanding that out there.
I don't auto sign anybody up for anything, but because I believe in a meritocracy, I want everything earned. So if you want to receive the weekly Fray Coach newsletter, go to the website to sign up for it. We're doing some lane data information out there. We got weekly fuel prices and a bunch of other cool. And we're going to, you know, obviously be developing that out and evolving that. So go check that out. But with that being said, ladies and gentlemen, I am going to talk about LTL today. And it's one of those things that I am not the biggest fan of. And. And that's why I bring subject matter experts on here to break it down because they make it sound so much easier than. Than I can even comprehend. So I got Mr.
Keith Farnsworth on the show today to break this down. Keith, thank you so much for joining me.
Thanks for having me. Appreciate letting me be on.
No, man, absolutely. It's, you know, it was. It was pretty funny because I think you know, you Reached out in like December and you were talking about, you know, doing some stuff with it. And it is as simple as it went, man. If you guys want to come on the show, just DM me. All right. Like, we'll get something scheduled out. Like there's, it's not any complex scenario or anything like that. So I appreciate you reaching out back then, man, and especially now that I know that you're in Arizona. We're definitely gonna have to meet up here, even though we're on two separate countries essentially of where we live in the valley here from each other. But hey, man, it's only about a 45 minute drive each way for each of us then.
Yeah, I'd love to come and be in studio, man. I know it's quite a drive for me, but man, I'd love to sit down and chat freight with you at any point. But yeah, I've had this circled on my calendar for several weeks now and looking forward to chatting.
No, absolutely, man. So, dude, we pretty much start off every episode like this, man. How'd you get your start in freight, Keith? What brought you into the transportation industry?
So it's kind of a running joke, but I don't think anybody chooses to be in freight, right? Like in second and third grade, I don't think we're like, everybody's saying like, I want to be in freight when I grow up, but I got a job at 17 working at an LTL doc and I kind of got hoodwinked into starting here. My brother who was a supervisor said, hey, you know, we're hiring for dock workers. And I was like, no, I don't want to do that. I'm going to start in college soon. And he goes, we're hiring for DOC workers and we're paying this much. And I was like, when do I show up? I showed up and honestly, I fell in love with it. Like I, I went from driving a forklift to managing an outbound shift to running line haul schedules.
Kind of just fell in love with freight. And so the last 20 years, you know, I've been jumping around from the asset based side to the non asset based side, running a brokerage, and then more recently on the technology side before joining cross country three years ago. So it's been a 22 year LTL run, but I love everything about it.
What's the big difference from brokerage LTL and then like asset base? Right? Like what is, do you think that there's positives and negatives to Both or are you pretty much like. Nah, man. I tried brokerage. I work on the asset side for a reason.
Yeah, I was a part of a startup brokerage back in 2008 when it was not easy to start a brokerage. So we started with nothing, basically. No customers, no technology. And I loved that grind because just starting a business and growing it from the ground up is really enjoyable. There's always the challenge of not controlling the business that you're operating and so you have to find good partners and good quality carriers that you can trust to move your freight. So that's always a challenge. But I enjoyed the technology side of it. Solving problems through technology for customers. And that's where I kind of got my start. On the LTL tech side.
Yeah, it's, you know, I kind of see it a lot out there right now. It's almost like, I don't want to say entrepreneurship's being glorified, but it kind of seems like that. And especially, you know, it's like, oh, go out and start your own business. And you know, obviously as somebody who's been self employed now for going on five years, like, there's a lot of value in like, I love doing what I'm doing, but like, it is not what it's cracked up to be out there on social media at all. And you know, I always break it down like this, man.
I'm like, I tell people, I'm like, if you're going to go out and start on your own, I'm like, do you have the stomach to be owed, say $20,000 on the 30th and then not have any way to pay $20,000 worth of bills on the 1st, if you can stomach that or the thought of that, maybe give it a shot. But if you, but you know, like otherwise, man, it's like that roller coaster that comes along with it. You know, some people thrive in that no guaranteed money, you know, style situation, that 1099 rep. But man, it's not what it's cracked up to be out there and what, somebody's selling you a thing to come out and do.
And you know, I feel like everybody needs to be aware of what they're getting themselves into because, dude, trust me, man, there's times where I wake up and I'm like, fuck, man, sometimes it'd just be so much easier just to collect a salary, you know, go out there and just work hard for somebody else. But you know, and then it's just like at the end of the Day, man, I just, I have bigger goals and dreams and stuff like that, but I just want to see that from, from like a content perspective. Right. Like bringing that reality to. And that's kind of like the whole point of what I, I do on this show.
At the end of the day, man, I just want to bring like the real side of business out there within the transportation sector, you know, because there's, we know, like throughout your career, man, you know, and especially working inside of ltl, you have such a more in depth understanding about what's going on. And I want more of that information out there for people to kind of like give people a more educated path. And like, if you're going to go out there and do LTL freight, this is probably what you should know. And it's just like, you know, I, because I, I primarily do open deck heavy haul. We do a lot of cool shit out there and I get DMs from people, they're like, hey, I want to do over dimensional freight. How do It?
And I'm like, okay, like a, it's way more complex than just a DM over there to talk about that. And if you're going to go down that path, like, you need to actually understand what you're calling about before you even, you know, remotely try and uncover that.
And I love what you're doing, just sharing the knowledge. So whether it's LTL or what you're doing on the open deck side, love the knowledge sharing because you're right. I think what I knew back at 17, 19, 21, and what I know now is pretty different. And that's, I get a lot of fulfillment at this stage of my career helping that next generation not make the mistakes that, you know, I made or some of my, some of my teams made, you know, 10, 15 years ago.
Yeah. And, and that's the whole point of it. All. Right. Like, I want to see more of that coming out there and you know, and kind of building that up for individuals to utilize at the end of the day. Right. Because it's like, you know, I'm one of those guys where, you know, Keith, you could tell me that the stove's hot. I'm probably still going touch it at the end of the day because I got to figure it out on my own.
But you know, ultimately though, I feel like if we can put enough information out there to better prepare them when they're, you know, to that next generation of transportation professionals, you know, it's like I feel like that's just the best way to kind of go about that and use the Internet for a good thing, I guess, at the end of the day.
Yep, absolutely.
So, dude, how are you right now? Like what are you guys seeing? Because you work for an asset based carrier, you guys are pretty much all, you're, you know, you're expanding. How, how are your conversations with your guys's customers this year as you're, you know, you guys are going out there and trying to develop new business or maybe you're trying to develop, you know, deeper relationships with some of your current customers. What's the general sentiment out there?
I think it's positive, especially for us as we expand in a new market. So, you know, like you mentioned, we're an asset based LTL provider, so we're growing rapidly. We're in 17 states now, which is a big expansion from just seven years ago. We were in three states. And so what's fun for us is we go out and have net new conversations about the additional states and coverage that we can offer, about our lift gates that are on our trucks and the value we can bring. So I love hitting new markets, whether it's Dallas or whether it's Boise, you know, some of the areas that we're growing and having those net new conversations because we're a new carrier option where previously, you know, we couldn't help them in some of these markets.
Is there any emerging trends that you're seeing out there from a shipping perspective, Right. Like you brought up Liftgate for example. Is it, is it more last mile residential? Are you still seeing a rise in a lot of that stuff from an opportunities perspective or is it kind of, you know, staying safe similar to, you know, your traditional LTL services?
It's pretty traditional. One thing, one trend we are seeing is we're seeing the population in the United States shift a little bit more south. And some of the areas you and I talked pre show Minneapolis and the Dakotas where we have a lot of customer concentration. You know, we're seeing some of that shift down to, you know, the Houstons, the even the Renos or the Phoenix market, the Vegas market. So you're seeing a little bit of a shift just in the population and that's kind of pushing us to expand into new areas for us.
Why? What do you think is driving a lot of that? Do you, do you think is it more of, is it cost of living stuff? Is it, you know, what's driving a lot of that shift, do you think?
I think it's a little bit of that small time America type shift. And so people are moving, for one, they. It's easier to move to some of these warmer climates, I think, than in ever been. And I think with remote work being more popular the past three or four years, I don't think you have to be tied down to some of the physical locations that you were previously. So it's definitely a trend that we're watching and we're investing in new terminals and new markets to help facilitate that growth.
So I had Curtis Garrett on the show. It was, I think it was last week or a week prior. And he's been, he's another guy who's been in LTL the entirety of his career. I. This is. I'm not tying you or your company to anything about what I'm about to ask, but I think that from a dis. And I even hate to use the word disruption, do you think there will be a provider one day who comes in and offers a set price for pallet transportation based on dimensions that's never going to be reclassified, that's never going to change. It's going to be a, hey man, 50 bucks. A hypothetical example. All the listeners out there, 50 bucks. This is all it's going to cost for us to move this pallet. Do you think that is possible?
As technology and a lot of stuff starts to advance out there, I think.
There'S all kinds of possibilities. I think we are barely scratching the surface on the freight side and the technology side. That's one of the things that we do that's a little bit unique to our competitors is we have our own development team. So we're actually, we've got our assets, we've got our drivers and trucks and terminals, but we have our own development team. So as this type of a concept becomes more relevant, you know, we don't have to outsource and buy that technology. We can actually build a solution for our customers right there. But to speak specifically to that, one of the things that we do right now that's different than, you know, the other LTL providers, regional or national, is we're density based and we don't necessarily force the classifications on our customers.
We will only charge them for the space that they take up on our truck. So very similar concept that you're talking about one flat rate just based on the space that they take up based on that density. So yeah, I don't think we're too far away from that in Fact, I think we're a little bit ahead of the curve just based on the fact that we're basing things on density and not off of the freight classification from 1972 or 2025 as it changes. Because that's a big topic right now in freight. Is the NMFDA classification changes?
No. And that's because like that has always been my biggest gripe with ltl freight out there. And that's been, you know, my customer's biggest gripe as well is, you know, hypothetical, why did you quote US$100 on this and then now two months later, now it's $130. And there's always something, right? Like there's always some sort of change that's out there. And I'm not saying this is everything. Maybe this is just God's way of saying stay in full truckload, Chris, don't with ltl. But ultimately though, it's like I did like out of almost every single one, man. There's always been a rebuild, a reway, a reclass, something that's happened with it. And you know, my business partner and I were talking and we're like, man, one day the person who comes in and flat fees everything, you know, hey, liftgate, 25 bucks. Hypothetical example.
And there is just a straight pricing for everything. I'm like, that is going to be the one who comes in and dominates the LTL industry because like, you know, the more and more I've talked with people out there, it's kind of like a similar trend amongst a lot of guys that I know who just do full truckload. And at the end of the day is it's because they had very similar experiences. And then, you know, my head always goes to her, all right, where's the opportunity going to be? And I think like the ltl carrier that's out there, that can go in and do a set accessorial, you know, like I said, just a clear line item. You need this service, 25 bucks. You need this service, 50 bucks. You need this service, 75 bucks. And then it doesn't change on every shipment.
I think that's the carrier that's going to come in and all of a sudden they're going to create a monopoly inside of the industry because they're just going to cle up all the billing issues, all of the potential re everything that comes along with it. That's just where my head gravitates towards.
No, I like where you're at. I think the simplicity is what's appealing to people and sometimes we overcome. I say sometimes, all the time. We over complicate ltl. Right. We, we've done it for years and I think it's you know, 20, 30 years ago when it comes to czar lights and discounts and in classes we make something that should be as simple as point A to point B intact and on time and we make it incredibly complex. But I think you're right, I think, you know, simplifying the process for the end user is what we're trying to achieve and I think we're taking some steps towards that direction.
Do you think more carriers are going to start shifting towards density based pricing or is it going to be volume based? How do you think that's going to happen? Or are you guys sitting back hoping like man, I hope nobody changes the density based except for us.
It's funny, we're used to being the outliers in the industry. We're used to doing things a little bit different. So it's a role that we're happy to play. But I think ultimately if you want my actual guess, so they're taking slight changes right now and they're moving more to density over the next maybe six months with the new changes. But I think that's going to be like one of three or four phases and so it's going to create disruption, wait for a year, create more disruption as they move closer to density, wait for a year, create more disruption on the shipper side and eventually they're going to get to very close to full density which is what we're at on most of what we move for our end customer.
Now if the customer comes to us and says hey, I want to be on class, I want to use this rate base or do freight this way we're happy to accommodate but if given the option, we want to simplify it and just charge the customer for the space they take up.
Yeah, and I think that you know, because that's kind of how it operates essentially in the full truckload world, right? For the most part, yeah. There's a rate per mile that comes associated with it. But like you know, for example we have freight that's moving out there that's like a multi pick and then it's the same, it's an, you know, it's an intercompany transfer that goes along with it and they're like, hey, can we add this product on? We just need it dropped off at the second pick. They're going to drop and reload and we're like, yeah, absolutely, you can do that. There's no additional charge that comes along with it. The truck's already heading in that direction. It's not like you're adding anything out of the ordinary here. It's not like it's now all of a sudden over dimensional.
That's stuff that we personally like to do inside of my company, my brokerage. We like to do that for our customers. Because I don't believe in nickel and diming people. I really don't, man. I want to, I want to find the most cost effective way to move freight in every single situation and I want to bring that out there. And you know, again, and I know not everybody operates in that capac. I'm not perfect. I'm not going to sit here and try and say that I am. But if I'm trying to build loyalty long term, I think most customers know when they're being billed for every nickel that comes across. I want to remove that. Right. Like I'm just a simple dude, right. Maybe it's my public school education that brings this out in me. I believe in one and one at equals two.
Right. And I don't like algebra. I don't like throwing any variables inside of that shit. I like very clean cut operations. And you know, again I'd like to just bet on the long term customer relationships. Right. Because I think ultimately it's a lot easier to keep a customer happy than it is to go out and find new business. And I think that a lot of sales reps in, you know, and this not isn't even a transportation thing. I think this is just kind of across the board. They, they have almost too much emphasis on always developing new customers while in the process of recycling through their old ones. Because they, you don't want to put anybody's interest but their own first.
It's really expensive to not retain customers.
Yes.
So, so focusing on being authentic and transparent with your existing customer base as you're talking about Chris, I think is incredibly valuable. So we try and achieve the same thing. We want to be upfront. Our list of assessorials as we're kind of talking about here is not 72 pages long. Like some of the rules tariffs are. I think it might be seven pages long. Right. And, and I think probably my seven year old daughter could read most of the verbiage in our rules tariff and that's probably a good way of looking at this that we're not overcomplicating it. We're trying to do the best for the customer. Ultimately, we have to protect ourselves. We're in this for profit. We're trying to grow our business.
So we have to make sure that we're getting paid for the time, the space, and the risk that we're taking with each shipment. But there's definitely a healthy balance there. I 100% see what you're saying.
No. And that's what I like. Obviously, I'm not going to ever tell anybody to work for free, right? Like, I am a capitalist. I believe in making money for the services that I provide. But I have just had enough conversations with people over the years that they're like, do you do this? And I'm like, no, man, I've tried that. It was a nightmare. And, you know, it was just one of those things where it's like, the more simple you are with it seems like it's just a lot more receptive out there in the open market with a lot of stuff. And I feel like, you know, again, I'm not going to sit here and tell anybody to not make money at the end of the day.
But, like, I always look at it like this, you know, like, as a customer, as a broker, you know, as I'm going out there and I challenge a lot of people to this exact same scenario. Say, you know, you got a shipment from a customer, it's not ready today. You know, it's got to wait till tomorrow. Your driver is asking, you know, the drivers are going to be willing to stay on it. Say that, you know, it's perfect world scenario here, right? They're not asking for more money, nothing like that. You know, they're like, nah, man, that's fine. We'll wait till the next day. We're going up there. Don't worry about it. And you have a competitor of yours that is going through the exact same scenario, and you charge your customer a layover, and then your competitor doesn't in that situation.
And again, if my driver would have requested one, I would have asked for it. And I believe in passing that through. But I always try and think about that. Every scenario that I go through is who's doing the right thing in that situation, right? Is somebody going out there and trying to take advantage of a situation or take advantage of a customer just to put a couple extra bucks in their pocket. And, you know, I think, like, that's one of those. Like, it doesn't seem like a big deal, but I think That's a decision that some people are, you know, that they go through. And you're going to go out there and be like, I want to make an extra hundred dollars on this today.
You're always going to remember that interaction, right? The negative interaction will last for a lifetime, right? In freight, we still could probably tell stories about when we felt like were burned one side of the business or another. And that's one thing that we pay very close attention to. So one of our kind of guiding principles is universal prosperity. And so we look at things and decisions on a company level of how does this affect our staff, our customers, our community and is this truly that win we're trying to achieve? Because those memories on those interactions are they last a lifetime?
No, I agree. Right. And it's like there, you know, if you're thinking long term with a lot of this stuff, right, like you don't want to be blacklisted from a business because I feel like as a sales rep you get double screwed in a lot of these situations because A that company is never going to work with you ever again. But B that decision maker will now never work with you for every job they go to. And you know, you look at it long term now, I mean, shit man, even in my prospecting that I do right now, Keith, I'll call a place and then, you know, three weeks later I'll call them back, hey, that person's no longer here, they got a new job. That happens.
People change jobs and your reputation is all you ultimately have when it boils down to it, right? Is your reputation as a sales rep, as a service provider, whatever that is, that will travel with you everywhere that they go.
And I think it's even more true in LTL. So I say all the time that LTL is the smallest 50 billion dollar industry that I've ever been a part of. It's this big man you and I probably have. Was it 7 degrees of separation? There's like maybe 2 degrees of separation, you know, between you and I and pretty much anybody that's been in freight the last 10 years. So again, talking about that next generation, I am constantly stressing, never burn a bridge, it's not worth it because that shipping manager is moving on, as you mentioned, to another role. And they can then take you with them. Somebody who you worked with might be your future boss in the next, you know, five or 10 years.
So I still do business with people that I did business with on the non asset based side back in 2009. So those are still people that I communicate with on a weekly basis and I still get business from because of how I treated them 15 years ago.
How do you do that? How do you create that type of loyalty as a sales rep? Because that's not just a customer, that's a loyalty relationship at that point. When we're talking 15 years here, Keith, how is that like and that it's kind of an open ended question but like what do you think is that? Couple of key points on why that relationship stays year in and year out.
I think it starts with being authentic. It's not, not pretending to be somebody who you aren't or in really just being authentic. And sometimes that means being transparent about bad situations. You know, we're in freight. Sometimes freight is not going to get picked up or delivered on time. Now we stress and we put measures in place to be 99 plus percent on time. But there's that 1% and what you do with that 1% probably lasts a lot longer than we realize. And so are you transparent? Are you proactive? Are you taking steps to make sure you're protecting their business? And if you do that, they'll continue to trust you with the next shipment, the next truckload, you know, the next customer relationship. And so I think it comes down to just building that long term trust through being transparent and authentic.
Yeah, I'm right there with you. Obviously I don't wake up hoping my day turns into a dumpster fire. But I also at this point in my career realize that in a lot of those situations that is where your relationships are solidified and grow. It's very rarely are they going to grow when your drivers are showing up on time and delivering on time because it's like, congratulations, you're doing your job. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but like ultimately when there's a, you know, an inconvenient situation, we'll call it how you handle that is what helps your growth on a, an extremely rapid trajectory. And it is just boiling down to like owning the situation. Right. Nobody ever wants to hear a run around. You just got to shoot people straight in every situation.
It's never a comfortable conversation to have, but it's a conversation that needs to be had and that, you know, again, boil it down to is your, you or your competition doing it? Most people tuck their tail between their legs and hide and hope for the storm to pass where if you just literally walk into it, pick up the phone. Hey, Mr. And Mrs. Shipper. This is what's going on. This is what happened. This is what we're doing to fix it more times than not. No harm, no foul. They're not going to be happy, but they're going to know that you're a partner in that situation and you're not just looking to get something out of that and you're not a transaction to them.
And I agree. And I think as we grow through business and we attract larger customers with larger spend and we're growing our business. As you're growing your business, we're growing ours. I think some of the larger customers bring more complexity and potentially tougher problems to solve. But you get paid for your ability to handle those tougher, you know, tougher situations or more complexity. You get paid each time you're, you go from that small shipper to that medium shipper to, you know, somebody that's got large enough rate spend to carry your business. There's going to be conflict. And you get paid for your ability to handle conflict appropriately and still earn the relationship and keep the trust.
Yeah, I think that, you know, what you brought up there about, you know, it's that gradual increase, you're going to eventually, you know, go to shippers with larger volumes and more complexities that come along in their operation. I mean, I think, I mean, hell, I've even had some of these people on my show shippers who literally move more freight in a day than some people will in an entire year. And it is, you know, it's a different ball game, it's a different level. It's all of that stuff that comes along with it and you'll never graduate up. You know, it's mainly that personal confidence of like, hey, I'm gonna go after this national drywall shipper that has 47 locations in the United States of America.
That comes from that buildup and that confidence of like picking up the phone, servicing customers, doing the right thing day in and day out, and getting to that level. And it happens. Right. Anybody can do it.
Once you, once you do it, though, it's, I don't know, people in the freight industry and sales. Once you, once you break into that new room, that's all you want. You want to continue to grow your business through large customers and bigger conversations. So I work with a lot of our reps in encouraging them. Right, teaching them, training them to have those conversations. And there is a little bit of hesitation in the beginning, but after you continue to stack those wins and get into different rooms. That confidence grows quickly. And then some of our national reps that continue to bring on big customers and partners, they don't want to go back down that ladder. They want to continue going after the Fortune 500 companies and winning large bids and growing revenue that way.
But it takes time to gradually gain that confidence with each step to get into those rooms and have those conversations and wins.
No, absolutely, Keith. And kind of back to what were first starting about entrepreneurship. Not being as cracked up as some people are making it out to be is, you know, building up that consistent revenue is a major hurdle that a lot of people don't overcome early on in their business. It's closing those gaps of having a really good month or week and then not having anything for six weeks, for example. Right. Because it's that build that comes along with it. And you know, it's like I almost beat myself up for saying that I was sick and tired of doing the exact same truckload of drive in freight every single day as an employee. And now as a business owner, I was like, man, I would do anything for 15 Charlotte to Chicago's right now. A day, every single day.
You know, so it's like, it's just that different levels thing. It all comes along with it. But Keith, I really appreciate it, man. Thank you so much for your time today and just coming out here and just, you know, really bringing in, you know, an insight into the LTL side, man. So how do people reach out to you if they have any questions, you know, if you could, if you're hiring, if your company's hiring, put any of that stuff out there, man.
Yeah. So check us out@ccfs.com that's where you can jump in. You can see any of the driver posting, sales postings, any of the postings. We have to join our team. We are quickly growing and would love to see more of you guys join the team. And also if you have free to move ccfs.com you can jump on there and run quotes. And then I'm on LinkedIn. So Keith Farnsworth on LinkedIn and shoot me a chat. Let him talk to you guys.
I love it, man. Keith, thank you so much for joining me here today. That will be it for today, ladies and gentlemen. For some reason you guys can't find Keith, hit me up. I'll gladly put you guys in contact with them. But as always, if you guys got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. You guys, if you're feeling really ambitious after this one. Rank the show as well on itunes and Spotify, because that's how we reach more people, is because if you saw value, your network's gonna see value as well. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon. I'm working on it now.