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Just do me a favor and let them know that the Freight Coach sent you. All right Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Coffee with a Freight Coach. My name is Chris Jolly, I am your host and I am the Freight Coach. Before we jump into the episode today. As always, thank you guys so much for coming out and listening to this podcast. If this is your first time tuning in, welcome. This is the real side of freight, ladies and gentlemen. And I literally say that every day on all of my content. What do I mean by that?
I mean that I only speak to transportation professionals on this show, as well as my weekday live show, because I want to talk to the right individuals who have done what you're looking to do or who are currently doing what you're trying to achieve. So you can take all of that information, apply it, utilize it, and see a meaningful difference in your business and your life. It's one of the many reasons why I proudly fly this American flag behind me every single day. A, we're the greatest nation on earth, but B, I'm living my American dream, and I want to help each and every one of you live yours as well. I do have one small favor to ask. If you guys get value in what you hear today, subscribe to the show.
You guys share it out there to your network, because that's how we grow, that's how we help more people, is because if you see value, your network's going to see value as well.
All right, I got a very special.
Guest for you guys here today. We're going to talk about, you know, acquisitions and really, like, the. The state of the market. What is there an optimal time to buy companies, sell companies, and all of that stuff. So I have the CEO of Tenney Group here, Mr. Spencer Tenny. So thank you so much for joining me here today.
Thanks, Chris. I'm. I'm excited to be here.
No, me too, man. I mean, like, I. I like what's funny is I break down your articles, and I told you this when we met at Freight Fest out in Houston. I'm like, oh. I'm like, because you're in transport topics all the time. And I was like, I've been telling myself for a long time, I'm like, gosh, I got to get Spencer on the show. Like, I got to get him on. And then finally, we got everything lined up here, man. So what is the Tenney Group like? How did you get your start in all of that?
So I'm a third generation guy in transportation. My grandfather drove a beer truck. He drove a taxi. And like a lot of families, my dad resisted transportation at all costs, wanted no part of it.
And.
And that's almost a sure formula to find yourself doing exactly what you said you weren't going to do. But going back into the 70s, my dad started running and operating multiple transportation companies, did very well. I started consulting, started helping people acquire companies and then ultimately they'd said, well you've helped me do all these things and can you help me sell it? And that was really the genesis of us developing an industry specific M and A advisory firm. We don't do anything except for transportation logistics. And we, and we try to address a highly underserved market which is companies that have somewhere between 20 to 300 million in annual revenue. That's where it's, you know, probably the largest financial event of someone's lifetime. You're talking about hundreds and hundreds of employees and communities that could be impacted by that.
But it's also, it might not be quite big enough for some of your global investment banks to really take on. And so we're trying to serve that underserved market in a meaningful way. And we're having a lot of fun doing it. We've been doing that, this is actually our 50th year that we've been advising on deals exclusively in this space.
So I think, you know, when it comes down to it seems like two people to me. There's like two camps when it comes down to it. People who are actively looking to sell their business. Or maybe it's a distress sell in the sense of like, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't have anything in line in a succession because like I was learning about this recently is there's like, you know, there's owner financed sales out there. There's people who are like I'm looking to retire. I like there's nobody to take it over and, but they want their business to go on with people who care in that. And is that kind of what you see out there?
It's a little bit of everything. There's a lot of multigenerational companies and really the only way for them to keep that in the company is rather than a large liquidity event for that owner. You know, they effectively treat the business like annuity where they just throw off distributions to in many cases multiple generations of previous owners within the family. And so that's a way to kind of create liquidity or to create wealth from some, a transfer of ownership over time. But, but also that there's, you know, you're just traditional sale where you use third party or cash flow lending or asset based lending to get a deal done. And as you mentioned, owner financing is a great instrument for Business owners to expand the scope of what their financial outcome is from a deal.
So if they're willing to take a portion of the sale proceeds directly from the buyer paid out over time, it's just one way to close valuation gaps in order to get a deal done. So it's just another tool, the tool belt.
Yeah, it's, you know, because I'm thinking long term in my business, right? Because I, you know, what is the best path to growth? Is it acquiring? Is it merge? You're like, I don't think I ever want to merge with anybody because I, I could never work for anybody ever again.
There couldn't be two freight coaches. I'm pretty, I'm quite certain of that, Chris.
Absolutely not. But, you know, it's like, I have very audacious goals and I'm not afraid to admit it, right? Like, I'm looking to build the largest transportation company in North American history. No, no disrespect to C.H. Robinson, but I'm looking to make them look like a startup when I'm done. My goal, the number that I have in my vision for the long term, Spencer, is $50 billion. That's what I'm looking for to go for. And, you know, and how does that happen? Is it through organic growth? Is it through an acquisition? You know, like, I, I know the guys that arrive, logistics, you know, I've had Matt Pyatt, I've spoken to him a couple of times, and I look at what they've done in a short amount of time, right? Like for where their market share is.
And I mean, they've been at it now for, I think like 9 years, maybe 10 years, and they're already at 3 billion or whatever. Ding. They're very close to that. So it's like, what is that? I mean, do people come to you and they're like, hey, I'm looking to grow my company. Is it best to acquire through that route or is it stick with the organic route?
It really just depends on the life cycle, what stage in the company's life cycle that you're in. Because there's a lot of companies specifically on the asset light side that have rapid growth and they do it completely organically, just straight from existing customers. And that works very well. Where you see folks integrating acquisitions as part of the broader growth strategies for several reasons. One, they may need a capital partner. Well, it could be. It's not just acquiring. Sometimes it's bringing on a capital partner to help Capitalize the business. When you're in an asset light business, you might have, you know, tremendous stress on working capital, you know, long receive like receivable cycles which can affect the ability to enjoy growing the business because you're stressed out all the time and just to kind of keep up with the growth.
I think that's part of what the challenge is. So you may need capital as part of your growth. That's part of it in terms of creating transaction activity. But sometimes in order to continue growing, you have to expand in other markets. And what we're seeing a great deal of right now is folks that understand it's much more cost prohibitive to try to reinvent the wheel. Just go buy a proven formula, buy the systems, buy the talent that's already there. If you're going to go start expanding in markets that you don't know as and you don't understand and you're not as in command within today. Yeah, well, I, I think that's what. Because I think we can probably both agree, Chris, this is an amazing industry, but it's also one of the most unforgiving industries on planet Earth.
And so, and so that's why you see folks using acquisitions as a function of spreading risk across different verticals that have different risk profiles. So that as you're growing, you never have all of your eggs in one basket. Because you know, if you had $40 million worth of risk in one basket, that'd be pretty intense. And so I think that's why you see these larger companies step by step using acquisitions as a function to grow and de risk simultaneously.
You know, I mean, what, you're speaking to my soul right now, Spencer, because like we're, you know, we're going through a lot in our business right now. It's all, it's all positive, right? But like building up our company long term and you know, fortunately I have a very, very book smart and very intelligent business partner who handles all of like the stuff. Like I'm your prototypical visionary. I don't know if you've studied the EO system at all or EOS system, excuse me, but I'm your prototypical visionary. He's your prototypical integrator. And that's why we work really well together. And from my perspective, you know, like.
We'Re realistically, we're a little over 12.
Months in, we're a freight agent right now, but we're always looking to grow. And I'm, you know, and I know that there's no clear path to success in business. I know that the only clear path is through a lot of heartbreak and stress and everything else. Because how else do you learn? You know, if everything just went right all the time, Spencer, I think more people would realize how boring that is. And that's where all the fun comes from in those. But I'm also, you know, again, I'd like to think 24 months ahead, 36 months ahead, because I'm like, okay, well, where we are right now, we're going to be way ahead. That in three years. What steps could we take now to make ourselves more appealing if we ever decided to bring on a capital partner?
You know, like, what does that look like?
Well, I think the key is if you're growing smart, you can still grow fast and grow smart. I think where a lot of folks get in trouble is they, they put the pedal down too far and they get way over their skis and what their growth is and they can't deliver on what they've already sold. And from a cash flow standpoint, they don't have the reserves to navigate rough periods, whether it's the freight market or any other type of challenging situation that is confronting them. And so the key issue is like, mind your cash. You always have to wash your cat. Like, watch your cash as part of your growth strategy. That's the most important thing that you can possibly do. And you have to have a plan. And the reality is, you know, the people that you need around you.
Chris, between, you know, 0 to 5 million or 0 to 10 million is very different from going, you know, from 10 to 100 million. Yeah. Where I see folks that are incredible at creating value, they understand their own limitations and they humble themselves and they always seek to get the absolute best talent, even if it is superior to their own giftings. And they put those people in place and allow them to be successful. So I think that, number one, mind your cash, detach from your ego and, and have a strategy in place that number that gives you the ability to fight another, inevitably come across something that's going to rock your world that you can't control. And so, and so I think when because otherwise you're just a, you know, splash in the pan three years in and out. And so.
But if you want to have a sustaining business, those are the types of things that I see within characteristics of really dynamic value creators and people that, you know, are in position to do whatever they want, they can exit, they can acquire they can do either one. And I think that's what my hope is for folks as we continue to try to educate the market. That, that's, that's when you're building value. You can do whatever you want.
Yeah. And you know, because I mean everything you're talking about is if you would have asked me all of that three and a half years ago when I first started, right, I would have been like, no, I'm. This, this and this. And that was, you know, Chris, who had no money at all, was, you know, had no idea what the hell I was even gonna do. But I was like, no, I'm gonna control everything now, Spencer. I'm like, no, I know my limitations, all right? I truly do. When it comes to a lot of things operationally, it's like I don't write stuff down. I know what to do in my head, right. Like, but I don't write out processes. That's where again, my business partner comes in and we're a very well balanced from that because he's always like trying to slow me down.
I was like, no, no, let's write this down. Let's create a process here. And I'm like, no, I want to run through that wall right now. Let me go. Same thing from like a growth strategy. I know that we need to hire a CFO at one point, a full fledged, like we need to hire out an executive team. It's not going to be us figuring it out. We know our strong suits and we're going to build in that way.
Like, but, you know, and, but that's coming from seeing how hard it really is to go from even zero to a hundred thousand dollars in revenue, you know, because it's like what it took to get there isn't going to be like you said, when you incrementally grow in scale the way you look as a company at 5 million in revenue, you can't operate that way if you want to get to 10 or 100. And, and I know that. And I'm like, cool. What do we need to do? Where do we need to invest our funds to get that to happen? Because again, I know there are way smarter people than I out there that have done that, right? Because like I'm a firm believer in, you know, because I'm involved in a coaching group, an entrepreneur coaching group called the Artist Syndicate.
The two gentlemen who founded it, Andy For Sale and Ed Mylett, they built multiple nine figure businesses and they talk about that, Right. Like they talk about how no, you know, they built out their executive teams, they've done that. And I think that, like, that's what I would encourage so many people to do. If you're in the position where I'm at right now, where you're between year zero and year five, you need to get mentors of some sort out there and you need to speak to individuals who are way further ahead than you on this journey. Because that's the common denominator. Because, you know, fortunately, Spencer, I interview a lot of people. I've had a very great opportunity to speak to individuals who have built 50, 100 and even billion dollar companies.
And they've all said something around the same is this, hey, I, I have my lane that I'm really good at, but I'm terrible at a lot of other things and that's why I've hired out.
Yeah. And, and I think the issue is this, is that when people are really creating value, you recognize it's a team sport. And so one of my favorite clients named Dennis Munson, he's the former owner of linstar Transfer, we helped him sell the forward air a couple years back. It's about 100 million in annual revenue, Final mile. And he used to tell me, he'd say, you know, Spencer, I was really good at coming up with ideas. The problem was many of them were very bad. And so that's me, since he's like, thankfully I had the type of management team that had the strength of self to help me filter through what was just nonsense to things that were really going to be transformative in the business.
And so again, I think that's part of the magic is when you can have that complimentary skill sets and personalities, you're able to take a bunch of stuff, filter it all out, to only deliver what's best for everybody. And that's a really good template.
Yeah. And you know, it's funny because it's like that's in the, because we've read the book Traction and I'm going to put this out here again to any individual. If you're listening to this right now and you're like, hey, what Spencer just described, that's me. That like, that is literally me. I am like, I'll have 20 ideas, 19 of them are terrible, you know, but it describes that in this book. And like, and if, you know, because for me, I've always just had to figure things out. Right. Like it was, I've never had that come from a lineage of anything other than hard working and grit, right? Like, that's what I inherited. And I'll put that up against any other inherited skill that you can get out there.
Because, you know, I know a lot of people say this, Spencer, but like, I won't be outworked, right? Like I won't quit, is beat down and tired as I get. I'll, I'll find a reason to keep going. But like back to that book, the book Traction and then Rocket Fuel. It was the first two business books that I've ever read, Spencer, that I'm like, this describes my brain to a T. Like legitimately breaks it down. And you know, and I see that a lot out there. And I often say when I see companies fail, I'm like, it's one of two things. They quit or leadership was too arrogant to change. They thought that. I've always done it this way, this is the way that works. And that's not the case, right? And I've always told myself here.
Well, not always, but like as of recent, I would say probably within the last 18 months, Spencer, I'm like, my mentality now is I don't need to be right. We need to win. Like, we just need to win. I don't care at all costs. We, we will do whatever it takes, right? And I think that comes from the bootstrapping everything, right? Like, I know what it takes to get to certain levels and I know that I don't. Like, I know what I don't know and I don't know a lot.
You know, I, I wouldn't want to encourage a lot of your listeners and your subscribers that if you are in a position right now and you're trying to build something and you are under resourced, my challenge to you would be that this is a gift. And the reason why it's a gift is because the presence of capital can sometimes completely convolute good decision making. But when you don't really have much or you have little, it requires your brain to function at a different frequency and you have to think through things differently. And as you're building something, if you're able to exercise your brain and your grit in that way for a season, I think it's extremely. There's just a very strong correlation to sustaining businesses because those disciplines are set up on the front end.
So when you do inevitably have capital, you're a much better steward of it when you actually need it.
I think that if you don't go through that journey, I think that, you know, you're naturally more risk averse where it's like for me, I'm like, I see money as a resource, Spencer, right? Like it's renewable. And I'm like, risk? What risk? Risk to me is working a 9 to 5 job in corporate America that's got all the risk in the world to me. Like I'll bet on me a hundred times out of 100, you know, and I look at that as, it's just like, okay, well I went from nothing, you know, delivering pizzas part time to then getting a little bit of revenue to, you know, 18 months in, finally like breaking even, you know.
No, excuse me, at the 18 month mark I made like 5 bucks or something like that, you know, like, because I had broke even for a few months and I made a little bit of money and then you know, at the two year mark I'm like, dang, okay, well I, you know, I gotta, I'm got a little bit of attraction here where, you know, we're making a little bit of money. But like I, I viewed it as I gotta save every dollar I possibly can, right? Like I'm like. Cause I know what it's like to have no money at all. And it wasn't easy to get to the levels that I was at.
And from a mental standpoint, right, all the doubt, all the, everything that you think could go wrong, you know, you think the world's going to end if you sneeze wrong, essentially. And to me it's like, I know how hard I work to get to the financial level that I'm at right now from a revenue standpoint and everything else. And I'm like, well, you know what, all it takes is hard work, right? Like it wasn't. I know that if I want to get to the next level, I need to work harder, I need to improve, I need to evolve.
Because the version of Chris Jolly today will not cut it as the leader of $100 million organization or a billion, or when we get to 50 billion one day I'm going to have to evolve, I'm going to have to grow, I'm going to have to become more educated, more, you know, but I'm also going to have to understand that at the end of the day it's like my decision making is going to be based on the fact that we bootstrapped it and we made it happen because of hard work. And I know the value of a dollar and I think that's where some companies that raise a bunch of capital that they just blow it on meaningless shit. Spencer. They really do.
I don't have any examples and frankly I'm not going to call out any companies who have gone under who were heavily funded because I don't dance on anybody's graves by any means because at the end of the day that's somebody's livelihood that in dream that died. And I don't fuck with that. But what I do understand is and I also think about this sometimes, if they weren't boot, if they weren't VC backed or if they didn't raise a bunch of capital right away, would the results have been different? Does that change people's perspectives? Because I think that, you know, because, you know, you probably see this a lot more than anything, the first generation founder has a different perception than the second generation who they hand the company off to.
You know, they have a little bit of an understanding because they were probably there early on. They saw their parents working extended hours and then it always, and then they say like, it's like the third generation that kills it because they didn't have to work for it. And I'm like, and I'm a firm believer in that. Maybe it's my blue collar upbringing, but I'm a firm believer if you want something, you got to work for it. And I know how I am as a person. If I'm handed something, I'm inherently the most laziest person on earth. If you give me an opportunity to not do anything, I'm not going to do shit.
Yeah, I think that there's, I think there's a lot of hard workers in this industry, a lot of inspiring work that takes place and I think that's fun to be a part of. Here's what I think is true. I might disagree with you slightly on this. I mentioned how unforgiving this industry. I see a lot of folks who were tremendous stewards of financial management over the last 18 months and you know, they just got their lunch money taken permanently. And so, and I think that's what I think there's some really strong takeaways from what's happening in the market, which is you can do everything right and still lose. That's a reality. And so until you get your mind around that, like there's a certain humility that is associated with that type of business viewpoint that protects you and protects your people.
Because if you think that I can outwork this, I can get myself out of this. Well, if the freight market dips 35%, you're not, you can't, you can't squeeze 101 cents out of $1. It's not going to work. And so, like, so I, I think that there's some things that, where I see people that the difference between folks that are not able to recover from situations like this versus some that do is that there's always the head on the swivel. It's always about looking at the things and viewing the business from a stewardship standpoint versus an ownership. I've got customers, I've got employees, I've got stockholders that I'm responsible to. How I'm.
How am I stewarding this business investment at the absolute most elite level right now, when you think about it that way, versus I am the owner of this business, and this is mine. You.
You.
The detachment from the ownership of it allows business owners to avoid a lot of pitfalls along the way, largely because of ego, largely because, like I said, it's the attitude of, I can get myself out of this. Well, in all reality, these are really major problems that even the best of the best caught on the wrong day aren't going to operate out of. And so, and so my. Where I see that some of the most inspiring work taking place is the folks that are always looking. Is this my stepping off point? Should I be acquiring? Should I be raising capital? It's not about doing the right things. It's about constantly asking the right questions that leads to the right execution.
Do you think that people fall victim to that fat and happy, where it's like, you know what, maybe you got, you know, because like, I, I know what you're saying about the market, you know, changing and, you know, could drop 35%. And, you know, I know that there's a lot of real things. I, I agree with you there, man. But I guess, like, with my perspective on things is. Is what decisions were they making when it was really good in the market? Did that put them in a position to where a 30% dip in revenue caught them, quote, unquote, off guard? But were they not doing something during that time to, you know, like, were they not servicing their customers as well? Were they, you know, were they maybe not doing the most ethical things out there?
I think that there's a lot of different factors that lead into it because, you know, and again, I think that, you know, the reason why my perspective is that way is because you Know, I know that when I started making a little bit of money, Spencer, I was a little bit frivolous with my spending. I, you know, I guess I signed up for stuff I didn't necessarily need. You know, I, I bought stuff that I probably didn't need at the time because it, you know, it was going from not having any money to, hey, I got a little bit of money, I can kind of breathe. And then it was crazy how fast my perspective changed. But then when things dipped again and I was like, oh, dang, I gotta look at this a lot differently.
Fortunately, I, you know, I stashed some cash, right? Like, I wasn't, you know, completely spending, you know, $10 after making five or anything like that. But I guess that's just like, I, I, I think of a lot of companies out there and, you know, and just seeing it and talking to people is just like how you act when you're on the rise. And then when you're kind of at the top is, I think, like, is your ego stopping you from or, like, causing you know, to make bad decisions? I don't know. I, like, again, that's why it's like, I don't sit here and talk about some of these companies that were worth a couple billion dollars a year ago or two years ago. I've never been worth that as a company, so I don't know how I would react in those situations.
But I think now I'm just like, okay, well, what was going on, you know, because I know ego kind of, you know, ties into stuff, because I know that when the results are happening, everybody thinks they're fucking untouchable, but everyone is at that point. And then you start to think, okay, well, was there a decision that was wrong? And again, nobody's perfect. And I'm not judging anybody by any stretch of the imagination. But this is stuff that goes through my head all the time because, again, I have very lofty goals, right? And I know it's going to be very hard to get there. And I know I'm not going to be perfect and I'm going to make mistakes and I'm going to do a lot of things wrong.
But I'm also like, is there something out there that causes people to maybe hold on too long, that to not look at themselves in the mirror and be like, all right, you are the problem. It's not the market, it's not this, it's you. You're the decision maker.
Sure.
Well, I think going back to your comment earlier about having people in your circle that will, that you can, that you have a mentor, but also somebody that will tell you the truth. I think that's part of that. I think the typical business owner does not have someone like that in their life. And it's not necessarily by design. It's just the nature of being a business owner. Everyone reports to you, their livelihood depends on you writing a check. And so, yeah, it's hard to get someone to say you know, you're an absolute moron. What in the world is going on right now? And, and we all need people in our lives like that. And so, you know, were folks irresponsible over the last 18 months? Well, certainly, I mean, look at that. There was a report on, in.
Maybe it was transport topics or freightways. I'm not sure. I'm not sure which report it was. But you know, an enormous number the last 12 months in terms of bankruptcies, people just gone out of business. Yeah. Which, and, which means it's like I would venture to say that the majority of those people had not been in the industry that long.
Yeah.
When people have a much longer vantage point of the cycles within this industry, they just make different decisions. And so the people that grossly misjudge what I said, cash management, you know, potential dips in large part, I think those are just folks who have not been around long enough to know how to manage a very cyclical business. And so I chalk a lot of that up to just inexperience and just not being around long enough to appreciate that and unfortunately taking some major licks as part of it. Yeah, but yeah, without question. When, when the market is frothy and everybody's, you know, fat and, and, and enjoying it. No question that environment invites a tremendous amount of sloppiness, poor judgment and lack of discipline and people pay for it.
Without question. Yeah, it's man, it like, and I think like, this is what I, I'm coming to love more and more the longer and longer I'm in on this side of know, building stuff. It is, it is the build I'm like infatuated with, like building something out of nothing and like the process that kind of comes along with it and you know, I guess it's like, you know, and again, maybe my mentality is different because I don't have that from day one. Spencer. My goal is to hit it to a hundred million and sell. Right. Like that. That's never been even been on My radar. So, you know, maybe people's, you know, mentality and thought process are a little bit different if they're like, no, no. I'm building this to a 20 or 50 or $100 million. You know, my.
My goal is to sell. I don't. Like, that's not on my radar. So maybe I think about. Maybe I'm thinking about it differently. But, you know, for me, it's like, I just want to build something. Like, I like that. I like looking back over the last, you know, three and a half years and being like where I was when I started in my bedroom, on a broken folding table, on a busted laptop. And, you know, now where I'm at is. Is, you know, it's crazy to me that it happened in three short years, right? Because it's like at the snap of a finger, here I am today, and I'm like, okay. But now I realize, though, that a. I'm not going to become a millionaire overnight. They like that. I've accepted that, you know, because I think that's another thing.
When you start, you're like, I'm going.
To get rich right away.
Everything's going to be great.
It takes a lot of work, and.
It takes a lot of grit. But the build of it all is what I'm. I'm absolutely in love with, right? And I'm excited to get to that next level, right? I'm excited to hit 5 million, 10 million, 100, 500, a billion. And all of that because of what comes along with that and then growing with people, right? Like, you know, you talked about not having the. The person in your life that tells you're wrong. Fortunately, my business partner and I have that where we're like, we're. We check each other all the time, right? And, like, he's my best friend. I've known him my entire life. But we also have a business relationship, right? Like, we set that up. We set the parameters up. We have an operating agreement. We have a contract. Like, and it's not a handshake agreement between us, but we also.
We check each other on a lot of things with that. Because, you know, again, it comes back to the whole thing where I know I'm not always right. I'm a wild card, Spencer. I'm an absolute wild card when I. When I'm out there, because it's like, I look back at, you know, again, what happened over the first 36 months in business, and I'm like, what could I have done if I had my business partner from day one, I think I'd already be at probably 10, $20 million. No joke. I truly do. Because the Ying and the Yang approach to it.
I don't, I don't disagree, sir.
Yeah, it's crazy, Spencer, it really is. You know, because I think a lot of people get into business now and they think it's easy, you know, because I think you're right. A lot of people came in when the market was easy. It was really easy. It was name your price, you know, carrier accorded you $8amile, you quote $9amile to the customer. There is so much panic and uncertainty. The customer is just to prove in everything. Right. And revenues are overinflated and everything else and it just wasn't sustainable. And you know what I try and tell people right now is what you're experiencing right now is the norm in freight. It is the norm. It's not going to rise back up to $5amile or $6amile. That's never going to happen. Like at least not for the short term or probably even the long term.
I think that there'll be a bump.
Right.
It'll improve, it'll increase. Carriers are going to see their rates increase here, but it's not going back to what happened in 21 and 22 probably ever again.
Yeah, I think that when I to respond to that, to your point about freight rates being normal, I think that's the way strategic buyers, private equity and also sellers that they've kind of reached, we're reaching a meeting of the minds about this is the new normal. You know, interest rates. It was wonderful when effect when debt was effectively free.
Yeah, correct.
A long period of time. It would be nice if were going back. That was a, you know, a modern day phenomenon. And, and then it would be nice if my truck would was worth 100 over what I paid for it 5 years ago or whatever the crazy mathematics were around that's not, that's not true today. And so what is true is what we're experiencing right now. And I think that what's helpful for everyone on this show to understand is that when there is a predictable and stable environment, deals are going to get done, period. It doesn't matter if it's the interest rate is effectively 5% or if it's 10%, deals are going to get done because this a low margin industry where with major inflationary effects taking place right now and the only way to offset those in a meaningful way is through acquisitions.
And so the encouragement is when you have that level playing field and both buyers and sellers can trust the environment, then folks can advance their goals. Whether you're exiting or whether you're trying to create value via acquisition, the key is you have to have a stable environment. And so once the multiple interest rates started subsiding, interest rate hikes, started subsidizing that's where got down the business started doing a lot of deals.
So if somebody out there has, they have, they want to acquire something but they don't know how do you finance that? Right. Like if you're, if, especially if you're younger, you mean, you know, we'll use myself as an example. You've only been in it for three and a half years. You don't have a couple of million dollars in the bank. You know, you don't really have any assets. But you're like, I want to acquire a company now because you know, again, I, I truly think that there are going to be a lot of businesses and you know, I'd love to get your take on this that are going to sell for substantially less than what they could probably be if they just stuck it out a couple more years. Mainly because people are just over it.
But like how would somebody like me do that? Is it, do I go to a bank and get a loan? Is it, you know, do I have to put my house up for levers? Is it all of the above?
Well, there's multiple financing sources and it will really depend on the target company. If the target company has a reliable multi year set of financials that a bank can trust. And yeah, you might qualify for a cash flow lender to do that deal based on the performance of the target company. You can borrow using that performance and your own credit worthiness in conjunction with shared risks, either through equity down payment and in conjunction with that or through seller financing from the seller. And so you can go get a cash flow lender through the sba.
Yeah.
But also, I mean if you're going to stick with, you know, asset light or non asset companies, sure you can do a combination of down payment with a seller note. You might do an earn out which is maybe the business is losing money but it has good customers, it was poorly ran. So maybe what the deal is, I'm going to, I'm willing to take this off of you. I will provide you a percent of the revenue so you don't get nothing. But that would be a way for a buyer and the Seller to have a meeting of the minds. And then obviously there's, you know, there's, you know, there's investors that just, you can go partner with them and give them partial equity in the deal to help you put a deal together.
If you're on the asset side, I mean it's a different set of sources that you can get deals on. You can, you can borrow against the actual assets themselves through asset based lending. And there's a host of things depending on if you're going to do, you know, some NAS lending. There's, I guess my encouragement is the more you educate yourself, the more you realize you have a lot more tools than you might currently realize. And, and I think just getting with sellers that will be open minded about working out a deal is the key. If you can identify someone who's open minded to structure even in their own limited understanding, that's the key.
Because once you find a target that they're open to being flexible, then the, together the buyer and the seller can figure out a multitude of paths to actually consummate a deal.
Okay, okay. So I mean have you personally ever worked one of those deals where it was the owner financed? You know, because like I've seen some stuff out there, I was listening to a podcast a while ago where there's like a no money down essentially. And it is, it's that legacy company where they don't have anybody in line, none of their kids want the business. The owner's looking to retire. Have you seen anything like that in the transportation space?
All the time. I mean, I think that where you see it more commonly is in an asset based business where there is, you know, you can go use third party lending to borrow, deliver cash to the seller, remove them from their debt. They get to experience the equity that they've built in that equipment by purchasing the business and financing at a fair market value. And then on top of that you provide some owner financing. Now what's always going to be critical is that anyone that's going to lend money, if they're a third party institution, they're going to want to make sure that whoever's involved has industry experience. And so that you know, if you check that box that can get you in the game, the rest is going to be in terms of credit worthiness.
What have you experienced if you're an existing owner, like how's your current business performing? And then again it's going to largely tie to the performance of the target company and how comfortable the investment gets the lender.
Okay. Yeah. It's because, you know, again, self educating out there a lot. You know, I don't think people realize, Spencer, how much free content there is from an education standpoint on podcasting or YouTube or anything else. Because that's where I really got exposed for the first time about that owner financing. Zero money down. Essentially they, you know, you have an agreement where they get a portion of the profits for like a five year period or whatever it is, and that's how they get their, you know, their money from the sale of it and you know, a bunch of other things out there. And again, I like. And this is another thing too for individuals because like, I don't come from money, right.
Like, I don't have a golden parachute that I can call back on or be like, hey, mom, dad, can you guys loan, you know, float me five mil so I can buy this? Like, that doesn't exist. So it's like, you know, again, it's back down to that whole bootstrapping mentality. You got to become resourceful. You got to look out there like, hey, there are ways that you can scale if you are looking to acquire something that it might not cost you any money down or, you know, within reason. Right. Like, it's not as out of reach. I guess my message is it's not out as of reach as some people might think. Right.
Because if you're in, you know, a building phase of your business right now and resources are limited, you might not ever think an acquisition could be on the table for you. But it, but it is. And I think it's a lot closer than some people think if they just start, you know, educating themselves a little bit.
Yeah, I mean, I think the name of the game is cash flow. So if you can use other people's money to buy a business and still cash flow, that's the name of the game. So you're not helping yourself if you go use other people's money and your negative cash flowing because the debt service is too great.
Yeah.
So like, it's just like anything else. I mean, the one thing that you can't undo is overpaying for a business or using too much leverage to acquire. So, you know, I, it all starts with education, I think. Well, probably it starts with number one, I have more tools than I, than my current understanding allows me to appreciate. So lean into that and then go educate yourself, then go to work.
Yeah, no, man. Spencer, I appreciate your time. Like, I could talk to you for like two more hours because I just have so much more I want to do. But, you know, I, I definitely appreciate you joining me. I'm going to need to have you back on. You know, how about this? Maybe if you help me with my first acquisition here. Well, we'll talk about it. We'll do an entire podcast about the entire process and we'll through.
I'm in.
So how does anybody reach out to you to find out more if they're in the process of thinking about acquiring or, you know, looking to merge or anything like that? That.
Yeah, I mean, I think that the thing that we always say is just start the educational process. You can go to our website atthetenney group.com or you can just follow me on LinkedIn. Spencer Tenney and we're going to be pumping out a ton of both podcasts, white papers, deal announcements, deal analysis that we're actually part of and through the broader industry. So it's just a great way to expand your understanding, elevate your game and start making material steps towards creating value and then ultimately positioning yourself for an exit down the road.
I love it.
Spencer, thank you so much for joining me. All right, I got a very special.
Guest for you guys here today. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. Seeking investment.
How do you add value?
How do you stand out in a crowd in a tough environment if you're ever trying to raise capital or really grow your business and take on investment? So I have none other than Mr. Ben Gordon here. He is the founder and managing partner at Cambridge Capital. So Ben, thank you so much for joining me.
Christopher, thank you.
No, I'm really looking forward to this. You know, I've seen you speak numerous times. What's the first time I was exposed to you was you were a part of what I might. The first freight brokerage I worked for, XPO acquired and you were a part of that acquisition back in the day of Ohl when XPO came in and purchased it. And that was the first time I heard your name. And now here we are 14, 15 years later and I get down, sit down and talk with you about all this.
Well, it's been a great journey for both of us, so looking forward to it.
So Cambridge Capital, are you guys specializing specifically inside of transportation? Do you guys look for other industries as well or are you primarily within logistics space?
We are 100% focused on logistics and supply chain. One of my philosophies has been trying to focus on doing one thing and Seek to be the best at it. And so while I haven't always followed that in all aspects of my life, usually my failures have come from straying from that. My successes have come from doubling down on that. So at Cambridge Capital, we focus on backing great people, building great businesses in attractive areas of supply chain. We were, as you note, an original investor in xpo. We've been an investor in a string of companies since then. Grand Junction, which we sold to Target. The current portfolio companies like Bring, Reverse Logix, Parcel Perform, Everest boa, Bird Delivery, Circle Lift it, and all are in the supply chain arena.
Okay, so, you know, these last couple of years have been an interesting space, right? And you know, and I'm coming as somebody who, because I started my company in May of or April of 2020, and I've only known kind of this uncertain economic climate and really growing it out. Are you guys looking as, you know, these last couple years have unfolded, some large names have exited the space. What do you look for? Is it a founder? Is it a business plan? How would a company in an environment like we're going through kind of seemingly right now in the economy, how could somebody stand out to seek investment?
Well, Chris, we look for two types of companies. One is buyouts of supply chain services companies. Those are generally companies that have a strong foundation or generating 5 to 20 million dollars of profit, or EBITDA market leaders in some area of supply chain, whether that's freight brokerage, warehousing, freight forwarding, some other area of supply chain software or services, and where they're looking for a partner for growth, maybe they're looking to cash out, or maybe they're looking to fund an acquisition or other growth initiatives. But that's kind of scenario one, and that's the buyout side. And that, for example, is the approach we've taken with companies like Everest BOA and others. And then the other is the growth equity side. Growth equity is where we are investing in a company, typically a supply chain software company.
Typically, they might be profitable, they might be approaching profitability. They're generally doing 5 to 20 million of recurring revenue. And they're looking for a partner to help them accelerate their expansion, their growth. And so that's typically companies like Green Screens, Reverse Logics, Parcel Perform and others. And so in either case, the common denominator, Chris, is an outstanding management team, founders that are passionate about the business that's got tailwinds. So they're a leader in a category that's important, right? I mean, we're not buying trucking companies, but we are investing in high growth supply chain software and services companies, typically business that has some strong proof points of success. Maybe it's Fortune 500 customers, maybe it's technology with a moat around it, something else. And then finally realistic goals and expectations in terms of what they're looking for.
We would love to be the partner of choice for great founders building great businesses that are looking to do something special. And the guy that just wants to cash out and go away, that's not usually the situation for us. But the guy that's built something great but knows that adding a few things, whether that's money, technology, key hires and acquisition or something else in order to take the next step and scale up, that's typically the best fit.
So from my perspective, because I don't know if I ever would want to raise capital, right, like in that and I Do you find that often or are people only coming to you as hey, I need X. I'm looking for, you know, this part of equity in my company for that. Because like, and then again it's like is that the right mindset? Right. Is it better to take on investment to scale or to bootstrap? Right. I think that because like that's the battle I go through in my head all the time. And I'm sure you've heard that from numerous founders out there, like, what is that best avenue to take?
Oh, great question. Because you know, grad show marks had the famous line, I wouldn't want to join any club that had me as a member. Right. And, and I don't necessarily want to invest in any company that is so focused on investment and has raised so much capital that it's more about the money than about the business. I would much rather look for the great entrepreneur who's built something great and recognizes that it's not just about money, but it's also about resources to get to the next level. In fact, most of the time the companies that we invest in have not raised capital before, have bootstrapped to get to where they are. I think there are a couple of traps to watch out for. One is company that raises too much money. There are several of them.
I mean, look, some high profile examples like in the last year, you know, the unfortunate and sad demise of Convoy. Convoy had the potential to be a great business and there were a lot of terrific attributes. But one challenge is when you raise that much money, you're on this treadmill. And one of the treadmills is that you are raising money and the money comes in because of an expectation of high growth. And then you have to grow at a rapid clip. And if your growth slows because you're shifting to profitability, then your valuation drops. But then if your valuation drops in your management team and you go, well, you know, If I raised $1 billion and I'm not growing that quickly anymore and my company is now worth less than $1 billion, what does that mean?
That means that your equity as a member of the management team is actually zero. You're underwater because the investors get paid before you do. So it can be very dangerous for a company to raise too much money. And a lot of people raised money in 2020, 2021. And it's seemed like a great idea, but they fell into this exact trap that we're talking about. So. But on the other hand, there's a second trap. The other end of the spectrum is the do everything myself trap. And that's where you have an entrepreneur who's built something great, but it's much smaller than what it could be if he or she brought in the additional resources. And so the Goldilocks strategy, not too hot, not too cold, just right, is somewhere in between the two.
Not to raise massive amounts of money in a manner that puts you on a treadmill, nor to avoid raising capital and bootstrap exclusively at the expense of missing out. But, but somewhere in between. And that somewhere in between is if you're an entrepreneur that's built something terrific and you've got financial metrics that reflect that, technology, services, customers that reflect that. But you also know that with some more capital you could make an acquisition, move more aggressively on hiring, do something special on the technology side to add to the business. And you also have the self awareness to know that there might be other things you don't know that some other outside resources can help you with. That's really the sweet spot. And that's really what tends to be the perfect fit for us.
Yeah, it's, you know, looking at these amounts that have been raised inside of supply chain in transportation here over these last couple of years, it almost seemed like, and again, like from your perspective, maybe it's a little bit different, but it seemed, it almost seemed like raising large sums of money was over glorified and it almost gave us like a false sense of how it's actually done out there.
Right.
And I understand that when you look at it from a greater economic level, money was essentially free these last couple of years. Right. Like not Literally. But you know, money was kind of at a premium. You could give it out and do that. And I think it gave a lot of young entrepreneurs a false sense of what it actually takes to get noticed out there. Right. And I, you know, I've never been the smartest person in the room ever, you know, which is probably a good thing. But I've always had to work really hard to get my results in my business and I think like that's something that I, I, I think is going to have to really make a way back into the business world here.
Ben, coming up is, it's like you can't just have napkin ideas and score a seven figure investment. I think that you're going to have actual results, actual customers, a actual five year forecast, financials and everything that you're describing right there. And it seems like there's a lot of overstepping and overlooking what it actually takes to build a real business in today's day and age.
Definitely. I think the reality is that 2020 created a parallel universe where you could say facts didn't matter. You could say that was true in lots of areas in American society, but it was certainly true when it came to funding environment for supply chain technology. And yeah, look, in the end it's, I think it's about three things. Do you have a great business that's getting real traction? Do you have a realistic assessment of what you have and what you need? And is there a catalyst such that if you brought in additional resources it could allow you to do something much bigger and better? If you have those three elements, you can be really successful. If you don't have them or you don't have an accurate on a self assessment of the business, different story.
And, and so you know that's probably a good lesson for everybody.
Where do you think supply chain or logistics tech, do you think that there's any other like frontier that could possibly.
Be brought to the table?
Because you know like radian software, like obviously green screens. I use green screens inside of my brokerage and they're phenomenal. Right. They're, they're a partner of mine. They're, you know, they're an advertiser and stuff but I actually use them inside of my operations and you know, that's the beauty of where you know, having a hyper focused podcast like I do Ben is a lot of my advertisers are my partners in my actual business and you know, and bringing that firsthand knowledge to it. Do you think rating software and predictive analytics is kind of the way that maybe a company could gain investment or is there something else you're seeing starting to kind of build up from a freight tech space that you're like, hey, this is going to make a real difference in the industry?
Well, I think for rating software and predictive pricing, Green Screens is it. I mean they become the market leader and proud to be a, a part of Green Screens and a co founder and the chairman of the business as well as an investor. I think what Green Screens has done an incredible job of is focusing on doing one thing really well. Starting with an idea, getting a great proof point of success with one customer and in their case the early adopter nfi, which was great. NFI is a rigorous company, very technically strong enough that they, you know, built their own tms which very few people would do. And so having the endorsement from someone like NFI made a big difference.
And it's a reason why Green screen is in two years won close to 150 of the top 200 freight brokers is customers for their predictive pricing that allows you to know on a real time basis what should it cost to ship a truckload of freight from say Chicago to Miami. And that's I think a pretty good blueprint. So look, I think similarly if you look at other companies in our portfolio, Reverse Logix is totally focused on software to automate the returns process. They are a returns management system or an rms. So you know what a tms, WMS and an OMS are Reverse Logics has basically invented the RMS space and they're doing a great job partial perform, totally focused on tracking and visibility. I buy something online, what happens next? And they're doing a great job in that arena.
And so look, I think the philosophy of picking one thing and trying to be the best at it is a very compelling strategy. And so my advice would be to entrepreneurs that are listening, whatever you're building, ask yourself, am I building something that allows me to be number one in my particular field? If you are, great. If you're not, ask yourself, well, is there some element of what I'm doing today that I could really double down on in order to best at that?
Yeah, honestly that's the philosophy that we have applied inside of my companies that I have founded. Is it, is that, you know, yeah, I understand that the, you know, the, in my brokerage, for example, I understand how large the freight market is, but we're going to build the undeniably best open deck and heavy haul freight brokerage in North America. And you know, it's funny because it's like, you know, people talk about market share and they're like, oh, we need to do everything. And I'm like, do you guys understand that like the flatbed for hire market alone is like $50 billion. Like I don't think anybody would be ashamed to say I have a 10 billion dollar freight brokerage and you know, and not even have 50% of the market that is inside of that.
Right.
And I think that, you know, and it comes early and again, I don't have it all figured out at all. I'm learning literally every single day inside of my businesses. But it's to me is I want to be that subject matter expert that when I reach out to my prospects or my customers and the carriers that I'm working with, they know that we know what we're talking about and I want to do it undeniably better than everybody else. And I think the same is applicable across all things in entrepreneurship. Right? Like they're like, you look at some of the largest brands out there and they all started, you know, with one core competency.
You know, I was reading a book recently and they were talking about the Coke and Pepsi debate back in the day and one of the, you know, a great misstep on there was this Coke tried new Coke and then people, you know, it almost bankrupted them back in the day and how they, when they switched back and it's like it's just doing that same thing repeatedly over and over again to separate yourself incrementally in the market to prove that you are better than everybody else. And do you think that like, that's the strategy that young founders need to stick with in a tough economic environment where raising money isn't as accessible as it has been in the past?
Well, yes, look, I think, no question raising money isn't as successful as it has been in the past, but I just want to double click on that. Chris. It's interesting. It's harder to raise money today than in 2020, but compare it to 20 years ago. Compare it to 2003. It's way easier than that. There is way more. I mean, I'll just give you a little vignette. When I started my first company, it was 1999. It was a company called Threeplex, and it was one of the first SaaS TMS companies. Guess how many venture capital firms I talked to knew what A SAS TMS was zero. Yeah, zero, exactly. Good guess. And not only that, but we named the company Threeplex. Why? Because it was three PL execution software. Guess how many VCs knew what a three PL was? Also zero. Right.
So we've come a long way and I think that the market is frankly one of the reasons why I built Cambridge Capital with my team, our partners, is because I wanted to give entrepreneurs the kind of capital and partnership that I didn't see in the market, you know, 24 years ago when I started Threeplex. And so the idea of having a specialist fund that totally focuses on supply chain and as a network of operating partners who are CEOs who have helped build some of the largest companies in the supply chain arena. It's pretty special, right? I think so. So look, I think there's more capital and knowledge and resources available for supply chain founders today than just about ever before, maybe with the exception of 2020 and 2021.
And so it's worth noting that if you compare against the long run, as opposed to just two years ago, still a great time to be a founder.
Yeah.
In know it because an entrepreneur group that I'm involved in, it's, you know, it's headed up by two individuals who have built multiple nine figure businesses. And you know, that's kind of the topic of what we've been talking about in December is it's like yeah, there are a lot of uncertainty that's in the market right now, but it's not as bad in today's terms as what people are trying to prescribe and kind of put out there in the media and you know, and other headlines and I think like it's an important piece of, it is, it's like back to kind of staying in your lane and having that one track mind.
Like yeah, pay attention to the.
Overall macroeconomics but like there's still access to capital, there's still access to growth and it's greater than it has been in the past because a lot of the individuals and this might just be like social media in general these days, Ben, is, it's littered with individuals who've never actually built real things. And you're talking about what you've seen over your 25 year career and if you pay attention to other individuals who've been around for 30, 40 years in business, what like the way they're attacking right now is it's still a great time to go out there and build because Competition as a whole, I feel like, is getting less and less by the day. More and more people are bowing out for whatever reason.
Right.
Because it's not that quick results that they may have experienced in these last couple of years and that maybe they're not as committed as they had said. And I think like, for anybody out there that is looking for that investment, if you're going to make it through, you know, if you made it through 2023 and you're going to make it through 2024, you might be a very ideal company to seek investment or to gain investment. Because what you were saying earlier, Ben really stuck out to me is the founder like their resilience and their ability that's got to stand out more than anything in a time like right now.
Now.
Yes. And resilience is a critical quality. I mean, it's funny, I was reading an interview with the, with Jensen Huang, the, the founder of Nvidia.
Yeah.
And yeah, he's built a business that's now, I think, a trillion dollar value company. And yet he said that if you were going to do it over again, he wouldn't. Because, because you can't believe how hard it is to build a business. And I think that's a noteworthy statement. I think you have to ask yourself, how hard are you willing to work? How resilient are you? What do you do when you encounter obstacles? And there's a lot to that. But if you're willing to do that and you are able to achieve some success, sometimes having a partner that's been through that same entrepreneurial journey and maybe has some pattern recognition that can complement what you've done can really help. And that's not about money. That's more about experience, insight, recognition of how a pattern that worked in one place could apply to your business.
And, and I think that's an important quality that entrepreneurs should be thinking about when they pick investors.
Yeah, no, I agree with that.
Right.
Is it's not just necessarily about the monetary value of the investment. It's the, it's the wealth of experience and knowledge that comes through dealing with uncertain economic times. Right. Because we're going to face this again. And I think that's one thing, like one of the best things I like about being involved in some of the entrepreneur groups are, is they're like, hey, I've been In this for 30 years, I've seen this five times.
Right.
Like you're going to see this again especially. And that's One thing that I've, you know, kind of came to grips with, Ben, in my journey is like, it's tough, it's going to be tough. And no matter what, I have to find solutions.
Right?
Like that's my main mentality as I attack every single day because I'm building a freight brokerage from scratch. Like, yeah, I had a decade of experience in the industry, but when I came back in, when I didn't have any existing customers. It's just been nothing but hustle and in sales for these last 12 months. And, and that's, I think, another thing to, for young individuals and I'm including myself in that to understand is it takes a lot longer than you think, right? It's not a 30 days and you're a millionaire. Like it takes so much longer than you think. And, but I, I also look at it as, from my perspective is the hardest thing that I've encountered. And I'd like to get your opinion on this with you being, you know, it's self employed for a long time.
I think that the hardest battles that I personally face in business is the, it's the mental battle go. It's, it's the dealing with the highs and the lows and the fact that like you're putting forth all of this effort, you're not getting that return. Then you get one yes. News moves the needle forward and then you get 99,000 straight no's. Is, is that what you experience out there? Is, is that the hardest thing that you've kind of encountered outside of like an economic standpoint?
Yes. In fact, tell you a story about that. When, when I started my first company, Threeplex, I remember we drove down Sandhill Road, Silicon Valley to raise money. We met with all these venture firms, most of whom said no. Some of them said no in spectacular fashion. For example, I was leaving the parking lot from Sequoia to drive to Kleiner Perkins and a woman sideswiped me and dented the side of the car so badly that the metal from the car was on the front right tire. And so first I had to exchange insurance information with the woman and then I had to get on the ground and try to pull the metal off the tire so that I could drive. So now I'm covered in dirt and grease, late for a pitch decliner.
And I noticed as were driving over the insurance information, the woman that had sideswiped me. Her, her name was Byers. And I realized, oh, I'm going to pitch the Firm of Kleiner, Perkins, Caufield and Byers. So Brooke Byers wife was in a car accident with me, right before the pitch. So needless to say, you know, I showed up stressed out, agitated, late, dirty and having come out of a car accident with the partner's wife. It was not a great start and did not go well and we did not get an offer from Kleiner. But yeah, you got to be willing to deal with adversity. You get told no a lot. And then the question is, what do you learn from it? And if you're just repeating the same thing over and over again, you're not learning anything.
So the question is, okay, if you make a mistake or you do something that doesn't yield the result you want, what do you change? And in my case, one of the things that we changed was we, aside from trying to show up on time and not be in car accidents, we modified the elements of the strategy and focused more on the ability to dominate the mid market third party logistics arena as opposed to something more generic. And showing how were more narrowly focused helped. And then secondly showing pattern recognition for how were replicating what other companies were doing. And I think, look, in the end we did succeed in raising capital, we did succeed in building up the business. And to me it just comes down to the fact that you've got to be willing to listen, learn and pivot.
I like that. Ben, I want to be mindful of your time. I know you're extremely busy. I greatly appreciate you carving out a little sliver to give as much insight as you have over these 30 minutes. You know, as a young entrepreneur, I, I just, I love hearing your perspective on how things go. How does anybody reach out to you if they want to reach out? Is LinkedIn the best way to maybe reach out to you if they have.
Any questions or LinkedIn or email, you know, LinkedIn's easy. You know, you can find me. The LinkedIn handle is bengorden18. You can also just email me@benambridgecapital.com you'll notice that we have our annual conference coming up actually next month for our investment bank, bgsa, the BGSA Supply Chain Conference. And if you go to bgsaconference.com you'll see more on that. We'll have over 350 supply chain CEOs here. And if you or any listeners would like to join, you know, but just reach out. Happy to get you an invitation. And, and you know, I'm always open to ideas, particularly from or about great entrepreneurs.
Perfect. Ben, I appreciate it. And if you guys made it this far in the episode, which I know you did, because there's so much value in this, make sure you subscribe and share it out. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon.