I'm lightning like Steve McQueen I'm in the fast lane when the light turns green and I built tough I ain't none but grit cause I made rugged blood, sweat and spit yeah, like a horse I fly for a bumpy ride I like to play hard but I work harder and I under the storm cause I'm built stronger what is up, ladies and gentlemen, we are back. We are live. It is a freight coach podcast, the top podcast in transportation coming to you guys every single weekday, 08:30 a.m. Pacific, 1030 Central to break down some industry headlines, but most importantly, provide some actual insight into what you can do with all of this information. I'm going to save the rest of the intro because I'm going to bring my guest up right now.
We got a lot to talk about in not a lot of time and that's what we're going to do. So I, like I said last week, I purposely was not going to overly cover the shutdown in the strike because there was a lot to be accomplished and it got accomplished and we're going to kind of break that down today. Like what this actually means when they came to this resolution and essentially they're pausing everything until January 15. So again, I have my maritime expert on the show Miss Lauren began back on and everything we talk about, not legal advice.
That's right. Thank you for the qualifier. Great to be back, Chris. Thanks for having me.
No, it was, and, you know, it's funny, like a Lauren called it to the day when we got done because you came on the week prior to the strike and you said after were done air, you were like, it just watched. By Friday, it's going to be wrapped up. Lo and behold, Thursday evening, everything was back to normal. And, you know, and that was in one of those things where, you know, you and I were discussing, I'm like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to overly cover it just because it could kind of get wrapped up soon. Soon. And it's seemingly that's what it did. It seemingly wrapped up at least until January 15. So, like, from your perspective, Lauren, what actually was accomplished here when they said, hey, everybody get back to work.
Yeah. So, I mean, the whole thing was bigger than what it was. Right. So we, I mean, the fact that it was quickly closed up, I think was predictable. But also with the caveat of course, right, Monday morning quarterbacking. That's what we're doing here a little bit. But on the other hand, maybe not right like, everything was predictable, but maybe not like this could have actually had the potential to go wild because of how inflammatory some of the language coming out was on this thing. So, you know, even though, you know, the industry was kind of saying, and by the industry, I mean kind of like the maritime experts who were kind of watching this was saying, look, I really think it'll tip over for a day or two, and by Friday, we'll be back to work. I'm not gonna lie.
On Wednesday afternoon, I was starting to get a little like, oh, my gosh, should we start contingency planning for like two weeks out? Because, you know, it was the whole messaging around it was that President Daggett, Ila, President Daggett seemed to want the media attention right off the bat. And so Tuesday, it was October 1, they were in the strike. But then we had some global things happening that took the conversation off the tv in the 24 hours media cycle. And so while, I mean, you know, like, all of that is terrible, right? You don't want to be competing within everything, but like, you were having strikes happening, right? I mean, that was the big story on Tuesday. And sorry, not port strikes, but like, missile strikes happening on Tuesday over in Israel.
And so it got taken off of the mainstream media a little bit, but it wasn't as big. And his message two weeks prior, when he did his kind of tell all message was that we're going to be all over the news for the first 24, 48 hours. And they weren't. I was like, this is a little bit different than what he thought the playbook would be. By Wednesday it was back, right? By Wednesday, it was on every news media. It was on every. It was even getting into regional markets. And so the storyline of this is a big deal became a reality. And that made me a little bit more comfortable that. Okay, so step one is being achieved. He wanted to make sure that society understood the importance of the port workers. And I think that was achieved.
Although the message started to switch a little bit out of his favor because, you know, it's tough out there right now. The economy is. It's a tough market where things cost a lot of money. And it's true, the more expensive or the longer it takes for goods to get to your grocery store, the more expensive they are. So that started turn.
Yeah. And I think people in middle America, when, you know, again, I don't, I can't sit here and say every single doc worker makes a certain amount of money. But the overwhelming consensus was like a six figure salary and they wanted a 70% pay increase based on that. Right. And again, I'm not saying anybody shouldn't get paid. Right. And I want to be abundantly clear about that. But to Lauren's point, when there's people in middle America who are struggling to pay their bills and now they're being told that they potentially might not be like all their cost of goods might potentially go up even more, you kind of lose favor really quick.
And I think that is ultimately, and then on top of it, too, with all of the fallout, what's happening in North Carolina with the, that it's optics, it's very bad to say, hey, we're shutting down any resources that could possibly come in to help. So I think that's probably, I think both sides were like, hey, we got to get this wrapped up and we got to get this wrapped up quick. I mean, again, this is just my pure speculation standpoint on that.
Yeah. Well, in the north and North Carolina, I mean, I like, I'm praying for everybody involved. I mean, it's wild. The image is coming out from there. The ILA did start a GoFundme or some sort of a charity effort because I mean, on the other hand, they've been waiting for this moment for six years. And so, you know, they, while they wanted to make sure that they were not hurting any efforts, on the other hand, there wasn't going to be another time for this moment for them. So, you know, I can understand that they, the resolve of wanting to stick with it because this wasn't just President Daggett saying, I'm going to do this. It was, it was voted on by the members. Right. And I've said from, since 2021, really. And sorry.
The other thing going to that point is that it was tough for them to repackage or remessage the economy and the everyday american hurting because shutting down the ports, there's kind of no way of getting around it. That's hard to deflect off of you. But I said this in 2021 that I thought that unions were going to, were going to see a rise up of unions because, and I think we've probably talked about this before, the essential worker during COVID didn't get to go home. Right. That's the message of then we just return to work and the essential worker didn't get to a break. Right. I mean, it wasn't a break. It wasn't all those things. But like, it felt like it. Right. Like they had to stay front lines when everybody's going home to be safe.
They didn't get to go home to be safe. They were worried about coming home. You know, I know friends that were living in their basement and could only talk to their kids through, like, a screen door for those first few months, that those are the kinds of situations that these people went through. And then to just say, like, it's fine, we're all back to the office now, like, I'd be pissed, too. So we've seen kind of this rise of the union worker having a, how do we rebalance this? I mean, maybe it's, if I'm sick, how do I take sick time? Because a lot of these guys are hourly, not salary. And so how do you get paid during that time?
Because you don't want to hurt your family with any illness you might bring home, but on the other hand, you want to work like nobody knew. So, yeah, I get it. I mean, I get it. From that standpoint, it just, it's a, it was a tough time for all this to go down.
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think the one thing, you know, again, anybody can sit here and argue, like, oh, they're asking for too much. And I'm like, I've, I personally think that, you know, a lot of, it's all optics, right? Like, ultimately, at the end of the day, I mean, it's this classic negotiation, right? You start extremely high, and then you get, like, if anything, I would say they got them to come up quite a bit like 16% based on, you know, because what you call it, the steamship lines were like, oh, we want to do a 50%. And they're like, no, we need 77. So they got them to come up 16%. That's a decent chunk of change. And people fighting for more money and higher benefits and everything. That is what it is, right? Everybody's going to do that.
The area that I agreed with them the most on was the automation piece where I could sympathize with them because, hey, we don't want to be replaced by machines. Ultimately, that's my big thing. Like, I'm a fan of technology, but not to where it comes to replacing people's jobs, because what are they going to do all day, right? And it's just, it's not the, today's circumstances, what it evolves into. Because, I mean, some of these ports, if you spend more than 5 seconds watching a TikTok video, some of these ports around the world are fully automated or damn near fully automated. Yes, they still have people, but, like, I saw a video posted from a guy in Long beach, and it showed that, right? It showed one of these robots pulling containers off of the stack, going out and loading it onto a chassis.
And the guy was saying, like, that's what we're fighting against because that's somebody's job currently on the east coast. And I'm like, I get that. I truly do.
And that's the thing. It's not an all or nothing. And so that's where I would say that the argument agreed, right? Nobody wants republicans robots replacing people. And we're seeing that in the automation trucking side of things, right? You don't want autonomous driving trucks on the road with no kind of human interaction. Because what if it goes haywire, right? Then you have this giant truck just like re wheeling down the road. So, you know, I think that everybody sees the value in having humans as part of it, or you hope that they do, right? That it's not an all or nothing, though. And I think Long beach container terminal is, the LBCT is the one that was highlighted in that tic tac video.
And so.
Yeah, yeah. And like, yes, exactly. Right? So, like, yes, they're moving around autonomously. On the other hand, you know, the part of their messaging was that it really is an incredibly dangerous job. And so if there were some potentially remote opportunities for this to happen, that maybe instead of like the guys and gals being down there in the fields, on the yard with the potential of like a container falling on top of them, they could instead be maybe remotely controlling some of these things. And I think that we also, somebody mentioned the idea of perhaps the generation, like, yep. The current and yesterday's generation wants to be, you know, the autonomous gate thing. Right.
And like, punching cards as they're walking through, I think the future generation is probably going to want less of that, you know, more manual and perhaps more of that available to work from home. Right. If you could remotely operate some of this stuff and you're not losing jobs in that regard, perhaps there's a mix. Perhaps there's a blend forward here because I think if we completely get rid of automation or, and I don't even want to say automation because it's included in semi automated. And the remote opportunities, if we completely eliminate new technology, if we completely stifle that growth as a country, we're just not going to be doing as well because there's a potential that other countries are going to move forward and we're not keeping up with technology. Right.
That would be saying, I don't like the Internet and trying to stay out of the Internet world. It's not exactly the same, but I, I've heard reports that only about 7% of the world is fully automated out there. So, like, really we're not up against, like everybody's doing except for us. There's a lot of money involved with trying to go to better technology, higher technology, more advancements there. But I mean, it's a paper based industry. So, like, we already as an industry are lagging behind. That's where you start bringing in like, electronic bills of lading. Seems so easy, right? Like, we do email. Why are we still kind of in this like, mundane world of trying to do paper shipments or PDF attachments even? I mean, there should be a little bit more seamlessness to the operation.
Yeah, I, I mean, you're right. I, you know, I just think that, you know, I can definitely see where everybody's, you know, really ultimately coming from. Right? Like, I can see both sides of the fence, right? Like where, you know, large corporation not, and I'm not lumping in large corporations, but I could see a business making that decision where they're like, hey, let's invest, say, a million dollars into this, you know, automated process that used to take 15 people to do and then they make that cost benefit analysis all the time. Right? Like, and I could see why somebody would do that. But, you know, ultimately, and again, this is all a personal preference, and I get this every single time I talk about it from all the AI people out there.
Like, I'm a fan of this stuff, but not if it removes our purpose to function as people, because I feel like that is way more detrimental in the long run. Like, if you, we won't be around to see it, but if we're talking a couple of generations, like, I think it would be like the end of civilization essentially is what it could evolve into is where my personal opinion goes with a lot of this, because if you don't curb it to a point and people remove their purpose and lose their purpose to exist, what are we going to do? You know, and that's where my mind goes with that stuff.
And I only laugh because, I mean, I feel like that's like the premise of a movie, right? Like the robots are taking over and like, that's, I think that's a real thing that we need to be concerned about because especially right now with AI developments and perhaps that came into this conversation, perhaps it was like, gosh, this is moving quickly all of a sudden. So, I mean, I get it all around, right? I think that the absoluteness of no new tech, no new advancements, and the kind of irony that these posts are being made on Facebook, clearly on a computer. Right. Like, a little bit. Like, okay, I get it. But, like, also, how do you like your iPhone? Pretty nice, huh? Do you like your, like. You know, so, I mean, there's some. I get there has to be a conversation.
I think that's what we're gonna see between now and January 15 or 16th. Is this not 15th? Is this, like, conversation? That's the piece that they didn't want to rush through. They. I think that they're almost there, but they didn't want to rush through it. They needed to lower the temperature across the board. Right. They needed this to be less intense. They got the salary, or at least they got a significantly higher salary than they originally were. Kind of part of the conversations. We'll start to see some perhaps messaging around the automation stuff. They probably are doing their own cool down period right now. Do I think that we're going to get to a strike in January? I really don't think so.
I think this is going to be buttoned up well before, mostly because I don't think there's going to be the appetite for another strike. I think that we did it the last time around. They knew that they would have some support for it, you know, outside activities and outside events dampened their moment in the sun. But I think their point was made. They are very important and critical to the US economy, for good and for bad. But I also think that it's. The tide turned a little bit to be like, one guy can make all these decisions. Not totally true. Right? They voted to strike. Yeah, but. But I mean, it also kind of highlighted this. Perhaps it. Perhaps it sped up R and D on new tech. Right. Because I don't think ports want to beholden to this either. Right.
I think that they like predictability, and society as a whole likes predictability. So it's the blend. Right. It's the balance between the two that humans operating the robots. Right. Not robots unchecked. And I don't. I don't know what that looks like.
But I. I'm just smiling because of the one guy that you're alluding to here, I think, was a perfect perception of what most people have for mob boss style dudes. And he played that to a t. I. You know, like, were talking before went live. I'm like, that guy was, like, on point. I'm like, the thing that I liked about him is at least you don't have to guess who he is. You know, like, that is 100% who that dude was. And he was, he played his part to a t. He got what he wanted. But, you know, you brought up January 15, and that's the date in my mind, and, like, I want everybody to be aware of, because that's the deadline that they essentially both gave each other. Like, hey, we got to have something wrapped up by this time.
So what are, what can people learn from these situations? Because I personally think, Lauren, a lot of the practices can be applied even when there isn't a strike threat looming or anything like that. Because, like, when it comes down to, you know, demerits and, you know, just to clarify again, demerit is occurred at the port prior to the container being pulled out for delivery. Detention is, if the container is not returned back in time, from the specific free days that you're allotted out there. And it's completely dependent upon the steamship line on how many days that there are. So we won't go into the granular of that. But now when it comes down to damage and detention in this kind of, you know, we'll call it cool down period until January. What are some processes that people could start implementing today?
Because I'm assuming some people have probably some pretty big bills accruing starting today or whenever about all of this stuff.
Well, so we're not out of the woods. I wouldn't say that it's time to kind of move forward. Turn the page yet. We're not out of the woods here because what we're seeing is the ports were mostly opening on Friday. I think they were doing a little cleanup work through the weekends. A few ports were open over the weekends. And now come October 10, 11th, 12th, that's when those work disruption surcharges were set to hit. I think any BCO or shipper or anybody who has anything to do with the supply chain would be smart to watch closely, because I don't believe that these charges, as a general statement, are used for profit earning. And I know a lot of people would disagree with me there because certainly there are some incorrect applications of these surcharges.
And that's where, you know, I think that helping to navigate this, working with a professional who knows all of this is worthwhile because you want someone to help you kind of navigate what should be and shouldn't be applied. And so I think, look, some of these vessels were starting to pile up offshore and so we might see this little bit of a congestion spike. Usually what comes with congestion is some way to recoup those operational costs. And I think that's what we're going to see. And I'm interested to see if any of these work disruption surcharges or congestion surcharges get applied. I mean, they have to have a justification to do so. And it has to be kind of part of this intention to move the goods along, right? That's what the Federal Maritime Commission was really saying in their announcement.
Washington, any charges you can assess charges and charges are part of the market and that's how you can make decisions. But on the other hand, they can't just be profit charges, and I think that's generally accepted. But during COVID congestion, there was a lot of confusion over how things were applied and misapplied. And so right now, immaculate records, right? Know where your cargo is, know which vessel it's on, know what vessel queue number you know, it is. So that, you know, did it actually get delayed or was it not delayed? And, like, it's actually going to get here in two or three more days and the queue will have lessened or totally dissipated, you know what your free time was for the cargo that's sitting in that yard. Is it in demurrage yet or is it still in a free time period?
Know all of that. Almost count out, like, do your own calculations for what you might expect for demerge purposes, but then what you might expect once the new surcharges are there. And also check your tariffs because work strikes and work stoppages are not a new thing. So sometimes it's already in a tariff. And so that's something to watch too, is you might not have needed this 30 days for the ocean carriers to assess these charges. So watch all of that because I think that's going to be really important, especially this week because some of the carriers did have to cover some of those extra gas charges, right? Extra fuel, extra, you know, there's mariners on board that also got stuck.
So that means more food, more, you know, more work time for them, all of that, you know, and the equipment disruption across the supply chain will also be something to watch that's not out of the woods yet either. So things you can do for all disruptions, right? We're all, we are unfortunately always going to be seeing supply chain disruptions that be it weather, be it, you know, strikes, whatever it is, vessels getting stuck. There's a million different things that are. That have been happening and probably will continue to happen. I think that it's really finding experts in this industry that you can work with that can help you navigate it, that are watching all of the specifics here, that know what the federal maritime commission is, because that's an important piece. They're essentially an independent regulatory agency that watching the competition.
And so while it might not feel fair, it's important to know, is it actually competition just working through, or is this an actually unfair practice? And so there's a new rule out of the Federal Maritime commission, the unreasonable refusal to deal or negotiate. It kind of quietly went into effect September 23, and really, people weren't paying too much attention. There were only 40 or so comments filed on each round. That one, I think, has some big impacts because it's defining what unreasonably refusal to deal or negotiate looks like. That's a huge thing.
Yeah, no, it really is. And I just think that, you know, ultimately, now this is, you know, you need these situations, you know, whether it's in business or not, to kind of go through to be like, shit, we got to get our stuff in line here because this stuff adds up, and it adds up quick. Right. And, you know, I don't think a lot of people are aware that, like, at least on the demerit side of things, like, you can't even remove the container from the port until that bill is paid at the port. Yeah, no, I know. Well, I'm just speaking from my experience here, but, you know, there's a lot of that goes on, and this. Anytime that there's a change out there in, you know, from the FMC or whatever regulatory body is overseeing that segment of the industry. And.
And ultimately, you guys, I try my best. I'm not perfect, but I try my best to not have generalists on this show to come in and break these things down, because, as you saw last week, everybody was a maritime law expert, and everybody knew everything about it on social media. And my problem with that is people make decisions based off of what they see on the Internet in today's day and age. Right. Like, whether right or wrong or indifferent is irrelevant. But people watch this show for guidance, and I know that because. Because they dm me about this stuff. And that's why I try my absolute best to have subject matter experts come on the show for specifics inside of this industry.
I don't want a talking head to come on and talk about legal of OTR one day, intermodal the next day, and then maritime the next day, because there are so many intricacies inside of this, and people make decisions based off of what they hear. So it's like, I just want to put that caveat out there. So when you guys see people come on this show, Lauren is one of them. Lauren's, like, the first person I reach out to for anything maritime. Like, hey, Lauren, is this real or is this not real? And stuff like that? Because she knows that side of the industry better than anybody that I've ever came in contact with. So I want people to do their due diligence during these times, because you can see a TikTok.
People get their information from TikTok, Instagram, YouTube reels, all of that stuff today. So it's like, you know. And a lot of it sounds very convincing, right? Like anybody. I mean, shit, I could go get my hard hat and safety vest that I have in my office here, because I actually work in the industry, but irrelevant. I could put that on and go stand in front of a railyard and sit here and talk about being a rail expert in today's day and age or an interval, however you want to spin it, but it doesn't mean that the information is relevant. And if you make that decision based off of what you hear somewhere, you got to check your sources. All right. Lauren is very easily found on LinkedIn if you want to find her.
She puts her contact information out there every time she's on this show. And I'm sure she would love to hear from some of you who are dealing with this right now about, hey, how do I actually handle these situations? And I just. I want to put that caveat out there, because I don't create this show, and I don't do this show to, like, become famous. That's actually the last thing on my mind. I do this show to help people because, like, I've been screwed out of a lot of money. I'm sure a lot of people who listen to the show have. And it's, like, all because of something.
We did or didn't do well, and I appreciate that. Thank you so much. That I really do. You know, I mean, I haven't worked in a yard, but I have worked at a port, so I have had boots on the dock, but, you know, I have. Have I thrown lines for these large vessels? No, but I have been part of a port system to actually know what it looks like. How did demurgent detention get charged, you know, as part of the waiver request process, for all of that. But also I worked at the Federal Maritime Commission. So I've had both experiences, this helicopter regulatory experience. I was the international affairs attorney for the general counsel's office. And then I've also had, you know, the boots on the dock, like I said, at port of Boston. I worked there for a while.
So, you know, it's been a really interesting experience to have both of those experiences. And I'll be the first to say, did I know everything about the port? Certainly not. And I'm still learning. But I do have my 50 ton captain's license, which is a baby license. But, like, I've also, you know, I, like, I can. I feel as though I can kind of at least be keyed into some of the specifics that are happening out there. And I think that's the biggest thing you can do. One of the things that, as last week, started to get really wild and like you're saying, we had a lot of people entering the conversation. One of the key pieces of advice that I gave washing, you know, just distill it down. Try to eliminate the chaos. Get back to basics. What are we talking about here?
We're talking about detention, demurrage, and the free flow of your goods. And so it's important to stay organized. It's important to stay what rules do apply and or understand what rules do apply, what rules don't apply to your specific shipment, and do that throughout all of your shipments. And if you have a story, like if you know that your cargo got stuck and nobody will go get it and you're trying to get it, show that you're trying to get it, tell that story through proof, because if you can't and you don't, once the intensity lessens. Right. And that's where we're at, kind of today, is the intensity has dropped down. Can you prove your experience from last week? Can you prove that you were still trying? Obviously, the ports were, for the most part, shut down.
But can you prove that even with that, you were still working the angles, you were still trying to find a way, once it reopened, to get your goods fast and moved. And I. That's part of the conversation here, is knowing what you should be doing and really keep it simple. Keep good records. Make sure that you're following your cargo. Make sure that you know which vessel it's on. If you can. I mean, try to find as many specifics as you can about your movement of goods. So that way, once it gets overwhelming, you can say, let's go back to basics. What's in front of me here? What am I looking at? Because there were a lot of unknowns, but try to control what you can, right? And there's only nine or ten major ocean carriers.
And so that's the other thing is not, I don't know, not every business wants to go to war over every little thing. I mean, they don't want to lose money, that's for sure. But trying to figure out even good storytelling is favorable, if it's, well, even business to business negotiations, favors good organization. And that's one of the biggest things. You don't necessarily have to go to litigation to be organized. Right. And collect all of this evidence, because sometimes negotiating and having a clear message also benefits from that. Obviously not legal advice.
I always want to put that in there. Anytime Lauren or any of my lawyer friends come on the show, none of this is legal advice at all. Okay? Just want to put that out there. None of this is legal advice. But, Lauren, as always, I appreciate you jumping on the show. And, you know, I'll probably have you come back on and, like, as we get kind of closer to that to kind of give an update or maybe if you hear anything, you know, we can just have you come on and kind of break that down so we can keep people in the loop about what's going on. But as always, you guys, thanks for tuning in. If you guys got value in what you heard, subscribe to the show. You guys know how to find Lauren.
If you can't find her, for whatever reason, hit me up. I will put you guys in direct contact with her, but we'll be back tomorrow. I appreciate you guys. I love you guys, and we'll be talking to you soon. The whole.