Guest: Dave Benner - The New Era of Trump: Separating Rhetoric From Reality

Music. An idea whose time has come cannot be destroyed by armies or governments.

It's too pervasive, and we still have tools to spread the message. Music. Welcome to the Free Thought Project Podcast, a hub for free-thinking conversations about the promotion of liberty and the daunting task of government accountability. Here are your hosts, Jason Bassler, Matt Agorist, and Don Vyde Jr. Hello again, Freethinkers. Welcome back to the Freethought Project podcast. My name is Jason Bassler, and joining me is the Freethought Project Editor-in-Chief, Matt Agorist.

And we also have TFTP contributor and journalist Don Vyde Jr. Joining us as well today. We always like having Don, join us when we're talking anything geopolitics or foreign policy related. And considering our guest today is expert on those topics, I'm quite certain that we will discuss quite a bit relating to those subjects. But as always, guys, thank you all for joining us once again. We do have a great show lined up for you guys.

I also wanted to just check in with Matt and Don and see how they're doing. So what's up, Matt? What's up, Don? How are you guys doing today? Doing great, dude. Don is also an editor of the Free Thought Project. I wanted to make sure that we got that out there, too. He's taken so much of a rollover. It's a pleasure to have him on here. And I'm far more than just a journalist and contributor. But I'm doing great today, man. And it's glad to be here.

I appreciate you, brother. I'm doing really good as well. Really good day for me. Just sort of chill, prepping for the podcast, all that sort of stuff. Got a big religious holiday coming up this weekend that I'm super stoked to celebrate with friends and family. So, yeah, I'm pretty good mood myself. Awesome. I'd love to hear that. And yeah, thanks for that clarification, Matt. I probably should know better by now.

And I guess it's just a habit. You know, I've always been calling Donna a journalist and contributor for years. But you're right. He has taken on a more significant role. And of course, guys, I also wanted to remind our listeners, please take a moment to rate, review and subscribe so we can get this podcast into more people's ears.

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Our guest today is an author. He's a historian. He's written and contributed to the 10th Amendment Center and the Mises Institute. He's actively involved with the Libertarian Party, and I know for a while was actually running the LP Twitter account. He's been on the Tim Pool Show, TimCast, and IRL. He's appeared on Tom Wood Show and the Libertarian Institute podcast.

Our guest today is neocon nemesis, Mr. Dave Benner. So Dave, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us. Hey guys, thanks for having me. Love the work you do. So this is a big honor. There's lots going on in the world, so it's great to be on right now. Absolutely. Well, thank you for that, man. And yeah, you're totally right about that.

I don't think we planned it this way intentionally, but we just so happened to get you on the show the day after Biden, President Biden gave his farewell speech. And of course, the talking heads in the White House and the press secretary have bid farewell. And the media apparatus in this country is preparing for a perceived transfer of power to President-elect Donald Trump. So yeah, there is a lot to talk about. And considering the Senate confirmation hearings are happening, there's a lot.

And there recently was some upheaval with Tulsi Gabbard's shift and now supporting FISA Section 702, which I know has upset a lot of people, including a lot of libertarians. And Congressman Thomas Massey was recently booted off the House Committee after voting against Speaker Mike Johnson. So yeah, there's a lot to talk about. I'm sure we'll get into a few of those things. But we're also just four days away from Trump, once again, taking the White House.

And I know for some who view the left and the right as different wings of the same bird. They don't really have much faith that Trump and his MAGA 2.0 cabinet will really shift anything in any significant direction.

But I'm curious, Dave, are you optimistic at all that Trump's last term in the White House will actually provide any benefits to peace or liberty? I mean, I think it's safe to say that Kamala would be worse. It goes without saying, but are you hopeful in any way that RFK... Jay Bhattacharya and this Doge department will actually be able to turn the direction of the U.S. around. Oh, man, I think it's such a mixed bag. So I'm kind of caught in the middle of this whole thing, right?

So on one hand, a lot of his foreign policy appointments just give me nightmares and horrors, right? If you put Marco Rubio at the head of the State Department, that's a really bad sign. Mike Waltz, as a national security advisor, that is horrendous. And you mentioned FISA 702, but John Ratcliffe, the incoming CIA director. Was instrumental in the extension of FISA 702 last year. I think it was in April. So his foreign policy picks really don't give me much faith.

What's happening in Israel is interesting. Maybe we can talk about that later. But foreign policy wise, it's basically set up to basically be the dream of Miriam Adelson. And I know how politics works. I mean, she gave Trump, what, $100 million for his campaign. So essentially, she probably got to pick the cabinet. So that doesn't give me hope. But with Doge, I have to admit there is a semblance of hope I get with it.

Not that I believe necessarily that it will end up in the tangible reduction of power, the slashing of these bureaucratic agencies and things like that. But just shining a spotlight on government waste really for the first time in our lifetimes will, I think, be apparent. And it seems like Vivek and Elon are bought into at least, you know, broadcasting it with one of the biggest megaphones in the world. I mean, Twitter is the number one quote unquote source of news now.

So if those things are kind of exposed for the first time, I do think that at least optically is very good for kind of our side. So I'm really in the middle of a lot of it. I know there's people pro on one side or the other. I didn't support Trump. And I don't really get that involved in federal politics in the first place, because I believe the whole federal system is kind of untenable and kind of localism and nullification is where we can really make inroads.

So that's where I stand. Sorry for being so long winded. Not long winded at all, man. It sounds like a pretty level headed approach, honestly. And I've seen a lot of people on Twitter, of course, who are extremely black pilled when it comes to this whole new four years of the Trump administration. And, you know, rightfully so, we've already seen, you know, what he did in 2016 to 2020. But then, you know, there has been a significant shift culturally as far as

the general public sentiment about a lot of these issues. And of course, you know, support for people like Elon and Vavac are at an all time high.

So I'm kind of right there in the middle with you, man. And I'm skeptical, of course, but I feel like we can't be so skeptical that we end up just kind of pissing all over what could potentially be something more significant for our movement than anything we've seen politically in, geez, I don't know, a couple of decades. But as I alluded to in the intro, Tulsi Gabbard has drawn significant criticism, and I know a lot of libertarians included, for the shift in supporting the FISA Section 702.

And I know we've talked about that before on our podcast. So I think most of our audience is familiar with it. But for years, she's voted against it. But now she's going to be a spokesman for the 702 Authority. And 2022, Gabbard called for protections for Americans against these illegal warrantless surveillance. And five years later, coincidentally coinciding with her cabinet nomination, Gabbard just recently told ABC News in a statement that her...

Prior concerns about FISA were based on insufficient protections for civil liberties, particularly regarding the FBI's misuse of warrantless search powers on American citizens. So, yeah, I mean, what do you think? Like, is this a sign of more what's to come? Like leaders who were once kind of good on these subjects kind of now kowtowing to the establishment just because Trump's in power?

Do you think we should be kind of expecting more of this? I think that the reason is, is because there's two, apparently two senators or multiple Republican senators that have threatened like explicitly to withhold their confirmation vote for her. And I think there's culpability on this to go all around. Like, I think Tulsi deserves criticism if she's going to change her position on this.

This was something that she led on, as you said. But it's also, you know, worthy of mention that these Republicans and kind of the deep state that is forcing, you know, these people with mandates. Electoral mandates to get in line with this crap. You know, here's what I'm holding out hope for. I don't like this. I actually just wrote an article on this that will appear in dissident media, maybe even today or tomorrow.

But I think that I'm holding out hope that she was told by one or two of her advisors or someone that's advising her how to handle this confirmation process that it's just like, hey, lie about this. Say that you'll be on board with extending 702 and using it to target Americans with warrantless surveillance. But once you get in there, just reverse it. Maybe that's a pipe dream, but that's my hope. And it's really just a sign of politics in general.

You go to the swamp. You have to make these compromises, and I'm sure she's not alone in all that. It'd be interesting to see what other people have been rolled on. Man, I think you're giving her too much credit here. I think I used to take solace in the fact that Tulsi Gabbard was switching over to the right and bringing this anti-war sentiment into the right. And over the last year and a half, I've watched her basically do the exact—what

she just did with FISA this week. I've watched her do that on so many other policies that she's like strong armed for years, you know, for her whole career. You know, she's just she's taking this hard line with Israel, like just, you know, Israel or die. She's she's just and I think it's it's not people forcing her hand here. I think this is just her political ambition. And she sees that as her only way to get in to Washington again. Right.

I I'd love to believe that she's going to lie right now to get confirmed in a Senate and then come back in there. But I mean, what does that make you like a I mean, a prostitute, I guess, you know, imagine Ron Paul going up there and saying, yes, I now support FISA just so he could get on some committee. I don't I really don't take her.

I mean, I take her for her word right now. I mean, what she's been saying, she's been negating all of her previous principles and which apparently they weren't even principles. Yeah, I pretty much feel the same way when it comes to all of that. I've been so disappointed to see, you know, the way that Tulsi has sort of rolled over for the Washington establishment. But at the end of the day, you know, like you said, Matt, it's that's politics. It's a really dirty game.

And it's one of the biggest reasons why nobody should trust anything going on on the Hill.

You know, as as was mentioned earlier, you know, localization, you know, and decentralization at the the local level is more of the way to go because the federal game is just so rigged at this point. Now, Dave, I my apologies. I probably should have mentioned dissident media as being one of the outlets that you're now contributing to. And I think I think I knew that. I think that's the new operation that's being kind of ran by Mike Heiss, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, Michael Heiss, Dylan Griffin, and Amy Lepore kind of started that. And I think, man, if you know those guys and maybe a few others are involved in that, I'm glad to contribute. I just kind of do a weekly column there. Awesome. Yeah. Well, it seems like it's starting to take root with some momentum. And we've had Mike on the podcast before. He's a longtime friend of the Free Thought Project. I remember meeting up with Mike a decade ago at conferences.

And he's certainly done a lot of great work over the past few years with the Mises Caucus and everything. I know everybody kind of has mixed feelings about the way that the Mises Caucus turned out and everything, all the drama that's happened over the past year or so.

But nevertheless, I feel like Mike has been a warrior for liberty and a very sharp individual. But yeah, I kind of would probably lend my sentiment as well towards what Matt and Don were kind of saying. I do see this as being more politically advantageous for Tulsi. But there has been a lot of shifts going on. In fact, we're seeing a shift in tone from Thomas Massey recently, too. I don't know. I guess he lost the glasses and seems to have taken the kid gloves off.

And as we all know, he was recently ousted from the House Rules Committee after he was the only Republican to vote against Johnson's House leadership election. And after that, he took aim at some prominent right-wing influencers. And obviously, that didn't go over very well with the MAGA base. And now he's being lambasted by the right, which to me is a good sign, you know, if you're not pandering to any political faction, but he seems to be doubling down and he's more base than ever.

And I know he was initially floated as being the secretary of agriculture, but I think it's probably clear that's not going to happen. And maybe that's for the better. I don't think Massey would bend his principles, but I mean, who knows, you know, but you know, Ron Paul, as we said, yeah, never been his principles to pander to either party as well. But given Thomas Massey's recent shift in tone in actions, including his ousting.

Mike, do you think that the stance that he's taken will impact his political career and the influence within the Republican Party?

I mean, obviously, he's always been kind of an outlier, but like, is this going to further push him into a corner? I don't necessarily think so. You're right. He's a pariah. I view him as a Cato in a world of Caesars. And I've told him that to his face, by the way, at one time. I think he's downright heroic. I think his recent stance have been great. You're right about the Senate Rules Committee thing.

I actually posted a few days ago that kind of ingest a little bit is that the only reason thomas massey should be taken off this any committee is to be given a roman style dictatorship to save the republic because that's essentially where i'm at i'm no fan of you know any form of government i'm an anarchist as i assume all you guys are but you know compared to this democracy where mob rule you know seizes our liberty by majority rule votes that might be preferable so i

think he's great He's he can we've seen that he can win his elections from his district because he's so popular in his district, regardless of what, you know, right wing conservative thinks. So I hope not. I love that whole tirade he had against Cat Turd and a few others. So he's the most heroic politician of our age after Ron Paul. That's there's no question.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. And I think as disillusioned as I am with federal politics, I think the only ticket I could actually view myself supporting at this point in time, because, yes, I very much am an anarchist myself, would be Massey and Justin Amash. I mean, if they were to run that up, I'd be like, you know what, maybe I'll give that a shot. Yeah, I agree. I was just about to bring up Justin Amash, man.

They ran him out of there, though, and he had a chance to come back in running for Senate again, but it just didn't materialize, unfortunately. I think there might even be some right-wing racism involved in that, right? Because he's Syrian.

But, man, speaking of politicians making bold promises, right, to secure their votes, we can all, like, we've all, I know we're all hopeful that when, after Trump publicly stated that he plans to pardon Ross Ulbricht, you know, on his first day back in office. Given how often all these lies and promises are just used as political leverage and then forgotten, do you think there's a genuine chance he'll follow through with this on Monday? Or is this just like another example of lip service?

100% that will happen. I'm willing to bet anyone on it up to $1,000. I'm that convinced. You guys might know his mother, too. I'm close with his mother. I just don't think that this is something that he will abandon. It doesn't risk him any political capital, like something like trying to abolish the IRS would be that that's absurd. That's not going to happen. This is something that it wouldn't risk political capital. He he's had very high ranking, like influencers that are close to him,

kind of repeat the same thing that this is going to happen. Like Charlie Kirk. I'm just so convinced. I don't know if it'll be day one. It might be like a day two thing. He'll sign the paperwork. I'm very convinced this will happen. And Hey, if nothing else, that's a good sign.

Not only for Ross, because Ross deserves justice, but it's a precedent that could lead to, you know, getting these ideas out there to release all the nonviolent offenders and all these people that are held by the state for victimless crime. So I think it's going to happen. I would bet a lot on it. I really hope so, man. You're the first person I've heard that actually thinks that's going to happen. It made me feel good, actually.

Yeah, I certainly hope it does. And I just mentioned the other night when we were doing the rundown live with Tatiana Moroz that we were talking about a number of these things.

And I was like, as unoptimistic as I am, because I've spent so many years reaching at the rafters trying to show the MAGA crowd how Trump is controlled opposition for the deep state if there's one thing that i really hope he actually follows through on it's it's to release ross because the man does not deserve to be serving three life sentences for essentially nothing on pun intended trumped up charges against him so i i'm really hoping that that at the very least he does get uh released.

Well, yeah, fingers crossed that by the time this podcast is coming out next Monday, that there is some word, although I am in a group with several people, including Lynn Albrecht, Ross's mom. And she mentioned that Trump personally reached out to her and said, it's not going to be day one because he just has too much going on, but it will be shortly after that.

I don't know if that's something that's supposed to be kind of kept on the, you know, behind the scenes, but nevertheless, uh, hopefully by the time this podcast comes out, it's not really spilling the beans or anything, but we've, you know, we've been supporting Ross from the beginning. I mean, I think we had a mega viral meme and the, the year after I think Ross was locked up kind of explaining who he is, what happened and egregious, you know, sentence he he's facing.

And I've written to Ross numerous times. I mean, I feel like, yeah, this one's near and dear to my heart as well, Don. So I really do hope that it does happen. And I'm right there with you too, Dave. I don't really see why it wouldn't, especially the emphasis that Trump placed on this promise.

Not to say that, obviously, he's promised a lot of things over the years, but the fact that he was in front of a bunch of libertarians and he ended up saying this as being kind of like the climax crescendo to his speech in front of the libertarian party. I don't know. I'm hopeful at the very least. So, yeah, and hopefully that does snowball. I think that was a great point, too, that, you know, this isn't just something that ends with Ross.

I mean, we're also close to Roger Veer and, you know, I've done a lot to amplify his circumstances right now. So hopefully that's, you know, snowballs all the way, you know, into freeing Roger and, you know, the BS charges he's facing. And even Ian Freeman and, you know, even some of the more well-known Edward Snowden. And, you know, so let's just hope that this is kind of the beginning of something beautiful.

And, you know, I know people like us don't really put a lot of hope into politics or any type of political solution, but like, I don't know, maybe this could break the mold. Like maybe this could be the beginning of something that could be very advantageous for freedom and peace and liberty.

But yeah i don't i don't really have a question or anything there does anybody have anything to say before we we move on well just amen i i don't have much faith that you know trump will make those big moves to pardon snowden after essentially calling him a traitor that deserves to be hung or anything like that i know that gates has spoken outwardly about pardoning snowden because of course gates is no longer in the cabinet mix but i'm with you man i let's see if it happens i think it will.

And yeah, I've heard the same thing, you know, from Lynn. So. Yeah, right. Well, if it's not the first day, the first couple of days, I'll settle with that. But we didn't get our libertarian in a cabinet position. And geez, what other? We were going to get rid of taxes on tips. And I know there was a whole laundry list. The Department of Education, he promised to shut down the Department of Education, which he didn't do last time with both houses of Congress and the presidency.

That's just Republican rhetoric. Whenever they say we want to shut down the IRS or the Department of Education, it's just campaign rhetoric. I don't see that happening at all. So again, this is one of those moments where, you know, I'm partially cynic, partially white-pilled. I think Trump will follow through with some and not others. And then, you know, I'm attacked by both sides maybe in our movement, but whatever. Take the gun first, do process second.

Exactly. There you go. Yeah. I can't forget that gem, of course. And also the crown jewel, which is, you know, the America first mantra, which, you know, we touched on Marco Rubio a little bit already in this conversation. But, you know, during his Senate confirmation hearing just yesterday, he said something kind of peculiar at one point.

He said the quiet part out loud. He said, I'm confident in saying that President Trump's administration will continue to perhaps be the most pro-Israel administration in American history. I mean, I don't know. That seems a little weird to me. Can it be the most pro-America administration in America? That's a tough hurdle. To get to those heights, that's pretty tough, man. But yeah, I mean, all these pit picks are so pro-Zionist.

I mean, no one should have thought otherwise, by the way. I mean, basically who he surrounded him with and himself with and his donors basically say that. But I will say I'm very shocked by what's unfolding in Israel or what seems to be. I don't want to lead that into the next topic. You guys own the show, but we could touch on that if you want. No, no. Yeah. Actually, I was going to ask a question about that because that's big news right now.

We have the ceasefire on the verge, right, in Gaza making like a little glimmer of hope. Yeah. So here's my, I'll try to make this as succinct as possible.

If you would have asked me whether I think Trump will settle like the Ukraine war somehow, or Israel, you know, going into his administration, I would have said if one of those two, and I would have been cynical about both, I think Ukraine, because he seemed to be so out outspoken about settling that, getting Russia involved, talk to Putin again. But this is really kind of surprising to me.

And the optics just look terrible for Biden. If this turns out to be true, which even kind of mainstream anti-Trump media sources, as Glenn Greenwald is pointing out. Have seen to give Trump some credibility in this because he seems to have met with some of the Israeli leaders and two of the Israeli high ranking officials are threatening to quit the government over it. So that tells me that this is legit. Like, I don't think that that would happen if these talks weren't legit.

So if this ceasefire turns out to be true and tangible, meaning like fighting stops, sounds like the hostages will be exchanged. I think, you know, this is this is a moment for Trump that's as heroic as him warming relations with North Korea. Now, it won't settle everything in the Middle East until the U.S. Withdraws all support for Israel. But I have to admit, if this goes through, I think this is a very great moment that I would have to give him accolades for.

What do you guys think? I mean, I saw the news about that yesterday And it didn't shock me a whole lot Just due to the simple fact So. I tend to take the admittedly quite cynical or jaded look that, you know, the entirety of politics is a stage, you know, everything, everything is political theater.

And there was actually a really great article by the off guardian just recently where they've been doing their you know 2025 predictions where kit knightley their editor-in-chief just you know, asserted the idea that it's most likely that trump would be propped up as a sort of peacemaker bring him in and make it as you know seem as though he's you know ending some sort of conflicts because, of course, that's how MAGA really propped him up in the last administration.

Oh, anti-war Trump, despite the fact that he dropped more bombs in eight in four years than Obama did in eight years and did away with transparency for drone bombings and all these other atrocious things that happened under his administration, which for anybody who wants to know more about those, I wrote a 5,000-word article called Anti-War Trump Debunked on thefreethoughtproject.com that you can go and look up. That was back in November 2020.

So it doesn't actually shock me that much because it does seem like it's sort of par for the course of establishing the mythology around Trump that is necessary for sort of leaning into the second half of, as I mentioned earlier, this deep state controlled opposition MAGA PSYOP to continue keeping people stuck in the false dichotomy of left-right statism.

And ultimately, yes, I will still celebrate a ceasefire if it actually occurs, which I'm not that convinced of just yet, because as soon as it was announced, Israel committed yet another massacre of like 30 civilians and bombing tents and even Palestinians that were celebrating the ceasefire got bombed. So we'll see if it actually takes place. Yes, I will certainly celebrate if the ceasefire occurs.

But then the big question is, well, what is the Trump administration actually going to do to advance the liberation of the Palestinian people and end the illegal occupation of Palestine by the Zionist regime? I highly doubt that any steps will be taken in that direction. It's hard to disagree with anything you said there. I see that apparently Netanyahu kind of delayed the cabinet vote on it. But yeah, I saw that Al Jazeera reported on that massacre. I think that killed like 80 people.

So I'm on board with you. I just think that I'm kind of surprised that this is the theater where he would try to secure peace. We know he's the art of the deal guy, right? He wants deals, but you're totally right that he exacerbated wars in both Syria and Yemen, which no one talks about, by the way, and Yemen's only constituency is the military industrial complex in the Saudis. So that's like a catastrophe that might lead in the end to a million people.

So I'm totally with you on the mythology of Trump as an anti-war candidate and president.

His rhetoric sometimes has been really good, but his actions haven't. But, you know, their propaganda is that he didn't start a new war. But, well, he expanded all these different, you know, catastrophes and everywhere. So he certainly did, man. And I just find it so strange that people keep championing him as this like anti-war candidate.

It and they they keep forgetting his past like don just said you know he dropped more bombs in four years than obama did in eight you know he also killed more civilians with those bombs than obama did and he i mean he called for like i said earlier call for removal due process all this. Crazy tyrannical shit and i'm just wondering like what do you think causes these folks to have such short memories and continue to support this this you know despite this transparent.

War mongering despotism that trump just emirates with as succinctly as i can say it cult of personalities you know we've seen it through world history it's not just now you know julius caesar was herald to be you know the the savior of rome's republic and he got so much support from the plebeians and napoleon was supposed to save france from the deluge of the french uh revolution so we see this time and time again there's part of humanity that can't stop to be spellbound by these populists that

you know say this type of stuff and it's you know it's hard for most people to resist especially when you know the the mainstream media propaganda machine is working in full motion so that's what i make of it i'll if if i can have nothing or just the rhetoric and not the actions i'll still take the rhetoric because i want that getting out there but yeah I'm with you. Yeah, that's a good point, man.

I think that speaking about being anti-war does put that thought in other people's heads, and eventually it does kind of lead to some people waking up, I guess. But it's we still we just we even see like some devout anarchists and libertarians falling back in the same fucking bullshit that they did in 2016. And it's I would say it's hilarious to watch, but it's actually not as fucking disappointing, man.

You know how? Yeah. I would say through this. How the fuck do we get through this blind allegiance to the status? Yeah. What you just said strikes me is the reason I really think the distant left. So I mean, like the Glenn Greenwalds, the Caitlin Johnstones, the Aaron Mateys of the world are much better on war than the dissonant right.

Right now, the distant right, I think would go to war with China at the drop of a hat and risk nuclear war that kills us all. So yeah, absolutely. True. Less Scott Horton, you know, and, and, and everybody at the award. Yeah. Oh, of course. You know, there's, there's exceptions, but I'm talking about like, if you're talking about like the distant right, meaning like, you know, the Charlie Kirks and Jack Posobics. And those guys are so much worse, I think, than like the Caitlin Johnston's.

Some people that are socialists, right? Like, they'll just say it are much better on these wars. There seems to be a, I don't know, a veneer, at least from the right that they are moving towards the sentiment of being anti-war. But yeah, if, you know, Trump wants it, if Trump says, you know, X, Y, and Z is bad, then they're going to jump on board with it.

And that doesn't really seem to change much. And, you know, I'm glad that you brought up Yemen there too, because let us not forget that Trump did veto a bill that would end the sanctions against Yemen. And I mean, millions of people, I think it was millions, maybe not quite a million, but, you know, almost close to it were dying of starvation in Yemen.

And of course, you know, when the Ukraine war broke out, everybody pointed as Yemen as being, you know, the topic that nobody was talking about and everybody was jumping on board from the left supporting ukraine but that you know that general mentality didn't last very long and everybody forgot about yemen again and you know speaking of the art of the deal.

What was up with, I'm sure you guys caught this, but I think it was maybe a week or two after Trump had been nominated as the president, he met up with Musk and they'd had a call with Zelensky to end the Ukraine war or at least start the wheels in motion for that. Did anybody really follow that story? Yeah, I did. So apparently, you know, moments after he was elected, like one of his first calls was to Zelensky and apparently Elon must join the call.

Although it wasn't the entire call he joined during part of it. And from the reports I saw, he didn't play like an instrumental role in negotiating, he mostly listened in, but I do think Trump wants to create a deal that settles a sword. Now here's my fear. My fear is that he'll use the failure of a potential deal. Like if Zelensky walks away from any deal or Putin walks away from it, he'll use it as an excuse to give you credit more aid.

That can be the republican excuse to give ukraine more aid but the real america first answer the real libertarian answer is to withdraw support from ukraine regardless of any deal hey i want to deal as much as any of you guys do that would be a big accomplishment for him but he needs to withdraw aid there's no more excuses they're going to have both houses of congress mike johnson needs to be reputed on this completely because

he supported it even during biden's regime but if If they don't do that, it will all be for naught. And we have to fear that the failure of the deal will be a new justification.

Absolutely. And my whole perspective on that, I saw just the other day that Mike Waltz, his new pick for National Security Advisor, had just mentioned they want to pressure Kiev to drop the age of conscription from 26 to 18 so that they can, quote, get thousands of more soldiers on the front lines so that combined with i don't know if you guys have seen it but there's this video trump being interviewed i don't know if it was 60 minutes or whatever it was but they

were they brought up ukraine and russia and you know the biden administration policies with regard to ukraine and trump cut off the reporter and was like well you gotta you gotta remember i'm the one that gave Ukraine the weapons in the first place in 2017 and 2018. I take responsibility for that or something along those lines. So being very proud of the fact that, oh yeah, let's just arm a bunch of neo-Nazis that the CIA put in power in 2014 in this proxy war that NATO provoked.

So again, as far as being the jaded pessimist that I am, I still do hope that the The art of the deal somewhat kicks in. He does find some advantageous reason that he can capitalize on, even if it is for his own political gain, to bring it into the conflict. Because at the end of the day, anything that stops the killing of civilians is a good thing, even if he's doing it for selfless reasons. So hopefully something comes of that.

A hundred percent, man. And it's totally on brand for Trump, a guy who still boasts about Operation Warp Speed and promises to build the FBI a spectacular new building. Right. So right on the mark. I hope that happens, man. That would be just, I could understand people voting for Trump even, and I don't usually vote, but I could almost understand if that comes to fruition, it being worth it as an alternative to Kamala.

And I know you guys might not be that far as far as me and willingness to drench your feet into political waters, but that's how I see it. No, dude, I agree. There was a little part of me that kind of was happy when Trump got elected over Kamala. I don't think that we could have done another four years of this self-destructive government that we've had for the last four years. I mean, like we were talking about earlier, there's always these little caveats that we can find.

And and celebrate you know like like trump and paving the way for cannabis to be taken off the schedule list you know to be taken off of schedule one and and passing the hemp the national hemp law like that those were big deals and and also removing the individual mandate for health insurance you know this that was a huge deal for jason and i for years because we were you know we were self-employed and we had to we had to fucking pay all these penalties and shit because we didn't need health

insurance we were in our 30s and i mean now i fucking have health insurance i'm 46 but when we first started the free thought project so these things were you know those were big deals that that were they're things that we could you know celebrate but as far as moving forward you know i just see trump surrounded by so many different people who hold so many different opinions on things like we haven't gotten into this yet but immigration right so

he has he has steve bannon in his right ear telling him you know fucking close everything shut everybody down and fucking evict everybody and then he has you know vivek and elon in his right ear telling him to to you know we need these people and i agree with elon and vivek in that regard you know i think that we told this country totally needs an immigration policy because they're yours there's a lot of jobs that americans aren't willing to do right and these people from from all these

Asian countries, they come over here on these visas and they do these jobs. Like, I'm curious, I know you're, you have, you're pretty outspoken on immigration.

I'm curious to how you think that this is going to go when Trump comes into office, which, which direction do you see him going when it comes with, you know, comes to his advisors, given him so many conflicting views on, on immigration? Oh, man. To be honest, I'm not that outspoken on this issue. This is an issue that I don't have that much passion for, but I'll say what I said to Tim Poole.

I think that the critical mistake of Republicans is that even if you wanted stricter border controls, the worst avenue to pursue that is the federal government. It just doesn't make sense. The federal government has essentially usurped local authority, which used to reside in the states to create a uniform immigration policy. And Texas clearly doesn't want it. Right. Greg Abbott, you know, it might just be posturing, but the rhetoric suggests he doesn't want it.

And a huge majority, it seems, of conservatives don't want it. So I think when states and localities take control of, you know. The circumstances for themselves, they get more of what they want. And the same would be for states that want less restrictive immigration like California. So the 1875 Page Act was kind of the first act that really usurped immigration controls from the states. But if you're asking me, you know, ideally, the libertarian perspective isn't between open and closed borders.

It's private and government property. All government property should be privatized and individual property owners should assess who can come in and who can't. And that's the ideal. We're far from that world. But I think localizing this would give more people what they want, even though that wouldn't be my ideal. Right.

One of the things that I've noticed, our colleague Whitney Webb has actually done a fantastic job of pointing out over the past couple of years, is the weaponization of this manufactured immigration crisis. And I say manufactured in a couple of different contexts that I've pointed out previously. You know, first of all, it's very crucial for anyone discussing the immigration crisis to keep in mind why it's happening.

Well, I mean, we look back at foreign policy during the Cold War as it pertains to Central America, the numerous coups, the right-wing death squads, the destruction of the economy to the point where even now, you know, the massive economic sanctions, you know, put against so many South American countries, essentially destroying these places and forcing people to have to look for better lives elsewhere.

And where else are you going to go except, you know, the economic juggernaut that is the United States, right? But the usage of this manufactured immigration crisis as a means of ushering in the technocratic digital ID sort of surveillance panopticon that also James Corbett and Derrick Rose and many others have been rightly pointing out that this is being used as the justification for.

And it's unfortunate that that portion of the subject matter isn't getting as much coverage as, oh, they're eating the pets in Ohio or whatever open borders argument that the left wants to bring about because it's like both of them are sort of missing the plot in a way.

And in a way, I think it's sort of done on purpose because, you know, ultimately it seems as though both sides of the aisle are involved in, you know, advancing this agenda, 2030 agenda, great reset, technocracy, mass surveillance, panopticon, all that sort of stuff. Oh, and you asked me what I think will happen with Trump in it too, Matt, I think. So I think that Trump and the Republicans, they don't want to admit it.

They'll talk, build the wall all day, but they want that constituency to vote for them. And ultimately, I think Elon and Vivek's perspective will prevail. I mean, again, last time Trump had both houses of Congress and the presidency with greater majorities, I think they didn't really build the wall. And this issue just always becomes a soft civil war, much like a lot of other issues, because all the power is concentrated in Washington in a one size fits

all immigration policy. I think the same thing will continue. You know, he'll use the rhetoric, but he won't he won't really engage in a mass deportation. I'd love to hear what Jason thinks, too, or Matt. This is more something that's happening more recently. I wanted to put on your guys radar. are. I'm not sure if you're familiar with it, but we've been in the police accountability world for over a decade now. I have quite a few contacts.

One of my friends who is a First Amendment auditor slash cop watcher down in Bakersfield over the past week or so has been documenting numerous snatch and grab operations by Border Patrol happening in Bakersfield, which is just north of Los Angeles, which is interesting because this is something that was promised more through the Trump administration, and it's already starting. So it's kind of created some friction as to, like, is this kind of the Biden administration's like last...

You know, actions, or is this Trump? What's going on here? Luckily, it caused such a commotion in town. A lot of the locals came out, started filming the Border Patrol, you know, questioning them, asking for ID, asking for, you know, badge numbers, all that stuff, and ended up pressuring them out of town. They ended up leaving the hotel that they were checked into a little early. And of course, I know this sounds maybe it's like a little too into the weeds, but my friend has sources.

And apparently, they moved on to another city close to Bakersfield, which is Fresno. But yeah, I think that's a bit strange. It's already kicking in. And I don't know if this is coming out some kind of like preemptive action by the Border Patrol just to kind of get the ball rolling. But it seems like there is, at least as of right now, some momentum in that direction.

So I guess we'll have to wait and see if this rhetoric coming from Trump and deport them all is actually going to manifest, but it, you know, from the looks of it, it seems like it's already beginning even a week or two before he's even in office. Well, the house did just pass a bill. I think it might even be today actually, but they've been, they've been debating on this bill that would deport immigrants convicted of violence against women and, and, and sexual and sex crimes.

And so that might be where this is coming from. I know Biden supported it, which is weird. These were like people in like Home Depot parking lot. You know, they were like just migrant workers. Yeah. And it happened several times over the course of a week. And I don't think they actually got any of it on footage on camera, but they were there to, you know, cause a ruckus and create some pushback. But yeah, I didn't know that, Matt. That's certainly interesting.

So it seems like things are moving in that direction.

Yeah, yeah, it certainly is. You know, I did want to, I know we veered in a different direction, but I did want to get back to some of the Ukraine, Israel stuff, particularly the funding that's been going on, because I'm sure, you know, everybody's kind of seen the L.A. Fires have been devastating to Southern California. And, you know, somebody who lived in L.A., it certainly hits close to home for me.

But even while the fires were still raging, and I know they're not all out yet, but like just in the first couple of days, while the L.A. Fires are really tearing through several parts of Los Angeles, the Biden administration was sending millions and billions of dollars to Israel and to Ukraine. And I know there's a meme going around right now that like the Biden administration is giving all LA residents a one-time check of $770, which is understandably outrageous.

I guess there is other forms of assistance available as well. But I think it underlines this growing sentiment among the US population who's sick and tired of our tax dollars being sent to foreign countries. Essentially to fund these proxy wars. I don't even think anybody really knows how many billions of dollars the Biden administration actually sent to Ukraine.

I mean, I know at one point I was trying to keep up with it and I ended up losing track around 130 billion just because it was like, it's just kind of mind blowing numbers. And it's hard to know how much of it actually being allocated, but yeah. Do you think this sentiment will increase over the next four years? I know Trump has mentioned attempting to end the war in Ukraine, which we touched on, but the incoming administration's overwhelmingly pro-Israel.

So like, are they going to continue to shovel billions of dollars to Israel? And what effect will that have on the American public? Yeah, I think that's not going away. I mean, we sent 4.3 billion, I think, before October 7th. And I think we sent, what, 20 billion last year. I see no reason to think that will discontinue. I mean, this administration is wholly Zionist and whatever impresses me about the ceasefire, if it comes to fruition, I don't think it will stop that.

The military industrial complex has its claws sank too deep into, you know, the American governmental system and the lobbies. So I don't see that going away. As far as Ukraine, I think that is kind of the crown jewel of what, you know, Republican voters, especially populists want that to be ended. And, you know, immigration and mass deportation, those being kind of the two biggest things. So I think he'll press forward on that. You're right. The money is just endless, the dole that goes into it.

And we've paid the price domestically because of how our dollar has been devalued and inflation. We can't trust the CPI to even reflect accurate inflation over what's happened and creating, you know, half the dollars that exist over the span of one year. But I do think Trump will try to try to settle that.

The fear is the pitfall of a deal failure but let's see what comes from it i don't think marco rubio will help things any though that's for sure well i mean yeah that was something i was going to say is like how can the u.s government really bend the knee any harder for israel you know like i mean pandering to apac and the you know pro-israel neocon war hawks i mean that's obvious but like. How in the heck are they really going to ramp up even more support?

I don't know. Just this, that, you know, what he said that they're going to be the most pro-Israel administration in American history. Like, I can't really fathom that. You know, I don't even know what that's going to look like. Every American has to wear a Star David butt plug for Israel. It's a high bar, man. I don't know who I would say would be other than Trump, though, to be honest.

Out of all the presidents, who do you guys think was? I think Trump was the most pro-Israel president already. Yeah, I absolutely agree with that. And just about the money aspect in general, I mean, I've been seeing because I'm already typically like a chronically online person because of the nature of my work and whatnot. But with the TikTok ban looming, I've been on the clock app a little bit more frequently than I typically would.

And I've been seeing just such a mass dialogue around a whole lot of things. Obviously, the insane bipartisanship to get rid of TikTok in the midst of this big divisive portion of American political history. But also talking about like they're spending all this money going to Ukraine and Israel and while North Carolina and Tennessee have been washed away by floods and hurricanes and California is burning to the ground.

And I've been seeing this dialogue, a lot of it coming from the radicalization of realizing just how much the American government doesn't give a shit about the rights of the American people in their suppression of free speech with the

banning of the clock app. Yeah. And it's, it's festering over into this, what seems to be this, this deluge of awakening in a way of like, there was already like among young people, this consensus that the American government is shit, but a lot of young people mainly lean to the left. And so there was this still a bit of this mythology of like, oh, the Democrats or at least the progressives. And now there's this cascading of realizing, oh, never mind. None of these people actually care.

Like we're all plebeians to them. And we actually have a really good article that I just had scheduled to go out on the Free Thought Project earlier today.

We agged for Mint Press News by Robert Endlakesh called Burning Questions, LA Fire Cuts vs. Billions for Israel and Ukraine, where Robert does a fantastic job actually going into discussing the fact that, yeah, we have all these politicians, and even in the MAGA boat, that are supposedly America first, and yet we have all of this money and all of these agendas and all of this rhetoric. Towards let's, you know, make Israel great again. Let's, you know, the Ukraine and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And it's like, what about the American people? What about the fact that we can't afford healthcare? What about the fact that, you know, the, the dollar is like worth 10 cents at this point, if we're to count devaluation and all those sorts of things. And it's, it's insane. Yeah. I've had to laugh because it's not like I favor either, but when Mike Johnson said that aid to California has to be conditioned, right? Has to be met with conditions.

But of course, he would not give that same recommendation for the limitless amounts of money that is sent to Ukraine and Israel. You just have to laugh at it. I mean, the Uniparty is often brazen and hypocritical, but this is a moment where I think they're most hypocritical. And right, we don't want aid from the government that's seized from Americans to be sent to either case. But you have to admit that hypocrisy is crazy. Thank you.

Yeah. And it's being exposed more and more. I read an article on Facebook the other day talking about the fires in LA and how there was billions of dollars in damage.

And I just commented on the actual Facebook post for the article that said, quick, send another $100 billion to Ukraine. And I swear it must have gotten three or 400 interactions with that, you know, because I mean, people are aware of that.

And like, not a single person was like, shut up you know we need to support ukraine no no one did anything like that right that's that's such a good thing in my mind you know don mentioned something that really i think links these two issues is funding for israel and tiktok and that ian carroll has talked about this a little bit too i don't know if you guys know him but one of the things that he said and i think there's some legitimacy to it is that china is kind of the

faux target of tiktok like they're trying to blame this on the Chinese regime, but really at the heart of this TikTok ban is the fact that TikTok has exposed Americans to the brutality of the bloodshed and warpath in Israel for really the first time in history. And they've seen this and they can't accept that. The regime doesn't want to accept that. And that's the reason for the TikTok ban. And I think there's some plausibility to that, actually. Oh, absolutely.

I wrote an article about that very subject, I think over the summer discussing how the tiktok ban is just a trojan horse for censorship specifically for how you know during some of those congressional meetings in the summer i mean they really just blatantly said the quiet part out loud and said that it's driving young people to not support israel and that's the biggest reason why we have to you know sort of do away with this and one of the things that i've been pointing out recently

is this this faux argument for privacy concern on so many levels of american privacy you know like if they actually gave a crap about american user data privacy then we would be able to have a conversation about something and then scroll on facebook and not have to worry about seeing a targeted ad for something we only spoke words about you know if they actually gave a shit about chinese scooping up american data they'd be going after Timu,

they'd be going after Sheen, you know, and some of these other things. Not to mention, let's not forget Project Texas and the fact that all of the American user data for TikTok is heavily secured in Oracle Industries in Texas, which is a CIA front corporation. So if they're concerned about American user data privacy being breached by China in a CIA corp, I think the problem is in their own backyard. Maybe they need to have a talk with Langley about their cybersecurity.

I didn't know that, Don. You know, interestingly enough, I just read yesterday that there's a mass exodus happening from TikTok because of this ban moving to another Chinese app called Rubbook. And apparently that's like the Chinese Instagram, basically, but it's just as popular. And apparently there's a lot of Americans now populating that app. I think this is just within the last couple of days, so it's not like full blown. But that's basically the Streisand effect in motion, you know?

It absolutely is. Oh, go ahead. I was just going to, I found it so hilarious. So like for, so Redbook is like the, it's the nickname Americans have given it. The name of the app is Zhao Hongshu, which translates to Little Red Note or Little Red Book or something of that nature. And I just find it so hilarious that just the petty fuck you energy of young Americans to say, you know what? We're not going back to Facebook. We're not going back to Instagram. We would rather download this app.

Voluntarily give our data to the chinese and learn mandarin the most difficult language to learn in the world rather than submit to this nonsense i love it i love it backfired a little bit.

Well not to mention elon's a potential buyer for tiktok too now which you know i know love him or hate him there's some technocratic overlap there with you know a lot of the projects he's involved with not to mention the people he surrounds himself with so tick tock denied that and said it was totally bogus but i hope okay i hope it was true and elon's not perfect but i would be i'd be happy with that yeah it certainly helped with

uh with with twitter right or any american firm if any american firm bought it i think again i think tick tock has sworn off selling it to american firm might be posturing but if that happened i'd be all for it but it's like he said It's a smokescreen. It's all about, you know, what this has done to change the minds of Americans and not fear the Chinese regime. That's just the rhetoric. Yeah, 100%, man.

Well, Dave, we're getting close to the end here. And we always like to end the podcast with a bit of a positive note, like a white pill question. And throughout our conversation, man, you kind of touched on something that was really encouraging. It's the idea that even political rhetoric that's bullshit, you know, it still exposes warmongers and corruption and it does plant seeds, right? Even if those promises never come to fruition.

So like in a way, it feels like we're witnessing some kind of like early stages of a mass awakening, you know, to the corruption and the rot in these systems, man.

So from your perspective, what do you think the solution is to keep this momentum going? and how do we continue to expand this collective awareness and turn it into... Lasting, meaningful change. Yeah. I mean, I try to have a positive note and I generally have a positive outlook like Michael Malice, actually. I'm pretty optimistic about the future.

It's non-compliance and nullification and pushing back against unconstitutional and immoral laws at the local level as possible, all the way down to the individual. You guys do that. We can do that through education campaigns. But I think the most headway is actually being made on a cultural level And that gives me the most hope. For instance, we are, I think boys, we are witnessing the death throes of the mainstream media.

And I know I'm not the first one to have that take, but you can't ignore like the rise of the Tim pools and the Chris Williamson's and the Joe Rogan's and the Dave Smith's and all these independent, you know, podcasters and media outlets is doing in the CNNs and MSNBCs of the world. We also have like the highest gun ownership rates in U.S. History. I think that, you know, homeschooling is at record highs, at least in the last century.

I believe that's true. And there's cultural phenomena that could lead to better political outcomes, not right now, but maybe in the future. I think that Breitbart was right when he said politics is downstream from culture. Generally, there might be some exceptions to that. And I think we are witnessing some kind of a great awakening in a way that might manifest into kind of better political circumstances later.

Not to say that politics is the right path per se, but I think that we might have a better future than a lot of people think. Hey, Freethinkers, this is Matt Agorist, and I'm going to take a quick pause to remind you of something really important. First off, apologies for the interruption. But if you're still here, that means you're resonating with what we're doing. And we need your help to keep it alive. Independent platforms like ours don't survive on corporate sponsorships or mainstream

media funding. We survive because of you. If you're finding value in these unfiltered conversations and real solutions, the best way to support us is by liking, subscribing, and sharing this podcast with your friends and fellow freethinkers. It's a small act, but it's a powerful one. It helps us break through the censorship and algorithms designed to silence voices like ours.

This isn't just about supporting a podcast. It's about standing for freedom, exposing corruption, and building a movement that inspires real change. And if you want to go beyond liking and sharing, we'd love for you to become a member of the Freethought Project. Just head over to thefreethoughtproject.com and click on the TFTP membership link at the top of the page. As a member, you'll be directly supporting our mission and helping us to stay independent.

Your support is what keeps this platform alive and fighting. So thank you for being part of this journey, for sharing these ideas, and for standing with us. Fucking right, man. No one, no army can stop an idea whose time has come. Right. Amen. Ron Paul. Amen. Oh, dude, Dave, thank you for coming on today, man. And bringing such thoughtful and insightful perspective to the, to some very important issues. We talked about it.

We'll, we'll be able to see come to fruition hopefully next week when Trump is inaugurated, man. But no, your commitment to truth and ability to challenge these conventional narratives are, make you a unique voice out there. And we really appreciate that. And I think I speak for both Jason and I and Don, you know, when I say that your optimism, even in the face of such fucking crazy shit that we're facing right now is genuinely inspiring, dude.

Thank you, man. I really appreciate that. We all really appreciate that. And before we go, though, we want to, you know, let our audience know where they can find more of your work.

Is there anything specific that you like the plug anything like that yeah before i do that just jason don matt thank you for the work you do you guys do heroic work to kind of unveil you know not only the evils of the regime but how can we can circumvent that and that's really important if you want to follow me at dbenner83 on twitter i run a kind of a clip production called distant pulse i make kind of bite-sized anarchist or libertarian clips

from popular influencers put some subtitles on there and look attractive. And yeah, I contribute to 10th Amendment Center and Mises Institute, both of which are amazing organizations, much like yours. So that's where you can get ahold of me, follow me. If you want my books, davebenner.com, click in the middle and you can buy my books. My most recent is Thomas Paine, A Lifetime of Radicalism.

I think it's, you know, I try not to toot my own horn, but I think it's the most complete biography of America's most famous political radical in american history we will put all these links down at the bottom of the podcast description you guys and you could click it and buy it and read it all you want man dave thank you again for everything you do and for coming on man it was a pleasure having you on uh likewise guys hope i can come on again and thank you guys for everything thanks dave.

Music.