The Conference

Ep19 The Conference 

Alex: [00:00:00] I'm Alex Seropian . And I'm Aaron Marroquin. We are the hosts of the 4th Curtain Podcast. Today, we're going to take you to GDC. That's the Game Developers Conference. 

Aaron: GDC is an annual gathering of game makers in San Francisco. About 30, 000 people attended this year. It's been a yearly tradition since 1988, and it's probably older than some of you listening.

Alex: This episode is as much about the community as it is about this conference. Being a part of something bigger than yourself. Dealing with the ups and downs, the anxiety, the camaraderie, all the trappings of a giant work related social extravaganza. My co host Aaron Marroquin has never been to this event.

Here's how he sums up his excitement for going for the first time. 

Aaron: That is boring, but the truth is, I'm actually kind of dreading being around my peers. Like I mean it. You know? Like, I don't like it. 

Alex: Today we bring you four stories of going to this [00:01:00] conference. Really though, it's four stories of community.

Welcome to a special episode of The Fourth Curtain that we call The Conference. 

Aaron: Special thanks to our sponsor, Overwolf, bringing the potential of user generated content to makers across the world. To learn more about their CurseForge platform that lets game publishers open their worlds to makers and players everywhere, visit studios.

curseforge. com. 

Alex: In our first story, we talk to someone Who's never really wanted to go to GDC, has never been. They're a huge fan of video games, have been making video games for decades, has made dozens of them, and happens to be my co host, Aaron Marroquin. 

Aaron: It's more of like, whenever we're talking, especially with, with peers, like, and we're talking about something professional, and like, I want to have the answers, you know, and it's like, [00:02:00] if it's moving so fast, you know, and I maybe I just need to chill out.

Alex: That's Aaron Marroquin, good friend of mine, coworker, and co host of this podcast. I recorded him at GDC this year, his very first time going to the conference. You really haven't been to GDC? 

Aaron: No, I haven't. I have never been to GDC. The only conference I've ever gone to that's even remotely close to GDC would be the Unreal Fest.

Alex: Talking to Aaron, I realized I I've taken for granted what GDC is all about. I think it's easy to think of it as just, it's a conference. It's an industry conference, you know, it's all about video games, but in some ways it's really, it's a, it's like a proxy for community, like we're all part of some community, like our family, school, work, and [00:03:00] GDC is like this macro version of a gamers or a game developers community.

Aaron: My first experience with peers was in college. The industry is unbelievably competitive to get into. And there's no clear path at this time. This is in the 90s, 1990s? Yeah, late 90s. Very difficult to understand how to get in. There's no real clear path. There's all these like, um, what are they called whenever, um, I guess you would call them, um, you know, like in the wild west, like snake oil.

Like this kind of thing, charlatans, is that the word? People that are trying to sell you ways that like, oh yeah, come, come learn with us and we'll get you in. You know, that kind of thing. And you know, people are trying, because people are desperate to get into, they want to make games. So I ended up going to college with a bunch of people that were, and you know this, like, people don't, people think making games, it's [00:04:00] kind of like, they, it's kind of like making beds.

Like, people think because you're making beds, they're like, oh, you get to sleep all day. It's like, no, I'm making a bed. It's like, I'm not sleeping, I'm making a bed. So it's like video games. People think, oh, you get to play games all day. It's like, no, it's a lot of work and it's really hard. So you start to see that filtration process in the college.

Of people realizing that like, oh, making a 3D character is a lot of work, making an environment is a lot of work, doing all that stuff is a lot of work. Any, any aspect, right? The whole spectrum of making a game. Coding, everything. So you start to interact with your peers, who are competing with you, and there's very few positions at the time.

So it's this very, like, aggressive, and that's when I started to really bump up against people, and not work with them, but work against them, I guess, if that's what it means. If that makes any sense, and that spirit kind of carried into a lot of the studios. And that was during the crunch period that you [00:05:00] remember.

And I, and I think we even spoke to someone we spoke to, um, she said, uh, Susan said, I was working seven days a week and on Sundays I would just show up to save face. Right. Right. Remember that? And it's like, so, so now you add in the competitiveness, the like, just being there because you want everyone to think that you're contributing, you know what I'm saying?

All that. It's like, I never wanted to be like, so I never felt like, it's like, it's a different thing. You never felt welcome. Yeah. Welcome. Cause it's a competitive industry and you're an artist. So what you create is where you get your feedback. 

Alex: I think if you break it down, people engage in community for different reasons.

I mean, I guess we go to school. We have no choice when we're young, but I guess we're getting something out of it. We're learning and we're in a job community to make a living, but a conference like GDC, [00:06:00] it's kind of an optional thing. I've always thought about it sort of transactionally. Like I, I go to the conference because it's a great place to go and do business, but it's also one of the few places where in our industry, at least you can get the recognition of your tribe.

Aaron: So I'm waiting in line at E3. To like play, like, uh, we're, we're, we're going to play Zelda. It was, it was literally a four hour, I think it was a four hour line. And I'm standing in line with two influencers. It's a couple, it's a wife and husband that have a YouTube channel where they review like Nintendo stuff.

They told me, and I was like, Oh, that's cool. And I told them what I did. They're like, that's cool. And we didn't care. We were more excited about Zelda and talking about, Oh, what do you think? We were more excited about the little stupid pins they give you for waiting in line for three hours. You know what I mean?

So it's like [00:07:00] that, that's, there's something about that. That's very magical. And it's, it's, I really like it. And then whenever you're, you know, at the, at the GDC, I don't like, you know, like I've been in conversations before, like even like with Jay. Like, Jay's our, uh, C what is he, CTO? We'll be in Unreal, and I'll be like, he'll be like, yeah man, you just do this with the thing.

And I'm like, I don't know what he's talking about. And I get nervous, and this is Jay, who's my friend, right? So it's like, that feeling with people you don't know, and you're a professional, is very, like, I don't like it. I just don't like 

Alex: it, you know what I mean? Is that a, what do you call that, imposter syndrome?

Is that like a That's imposter syndrome. Of being Found out. Found out? 

Aaron: Yeah. I don't belong. I don't belong here. I don't belong. I'm not good at this. I'm really not as good as I think I, or how [00:08:00] the hell did I end up here?

Alex: It's not easy to explain how somebody who's so accomplished, 25 years in a craft, has created many, many video games on different platforms still feels like an imposter. It's depressing. But that's human nature, I 

Aaron: guess. But I'm still trying to get the approval of my peers. And I read this tweet of a comic book artist I know named Chad Townsend.

He basically said something that I was thinking and I hadn't seen it worded out, which is, hey, you know, like, For a long time I tried to get the respect of my peers for my art and I stopped and now I just I only make art now and I give it to the community and to the people, the fans, you know, the people that are, that are consuming it, you know, and appreciating it.

So he stopped caring about the peers and more about, [00:09:00] so, you know what I'm saying? So like my mind is starting to like formulate like, Oh, I know why I feel this way, you know? And it's like, So that's why I never went to GDC, you know, and it wasn't like out of spite. It was like what you said It's like you look at the and then you look at the ticket price and you're like, nah

Alex: I think it's very personal hearing you talk about your journey through this community and how You know, you feel welcomed by it as a gamer and you feel less welcomed by it as a producer. Do you think that's how you choose to relate to it? Or do you feel like that's kind of a part of this 

Aaron: industry? I think it is.

I think it is a part of the industry. I think it's a part of every industry. There are people who are the elite [00:10:00] and they're really good at what they do and they tend to get to know each other. because they're in this, they're kind of in the same world, you know, they go to the same things and they're just kind of, or maybe not, um, maybe this is just what it looks like from, from my, from my point of view, but I don't know, maybe I'm just, maybe I don't know.

I know there are people that can navigate that part of any kind of community. And maybe I just don't have what it takes, you know, to navigate that. I'm okay with that. You know, I can handle that. I like talking to the people that enjoy this stuff. Like, that's why I like E3. But the truth is I'm actually kind of dreading being around my peers.

Like I mean it, you know, I don't like it. I'd rather be next to the fans. Like, Hey, like, you know what I mean? And like, And sometimes I don't even tell them I work on games. 

Alex: In a lot of ways, I can relate to what Aaron is talking about. I think it's pretty natural to have a fear of being among your peers, [00:11:00] even though it's one of the things people crave the most, is acceptance.

What are you afraid of? 

Aaron: Um, like, by the way, the answer came to my head right away. It's like trying to figure out a way to say this where thousands of people listen to it and like, you know, they're not like Dora. Yeah, that would be tens, 

Alex: tens 

Aaron: yet. How do you say this? Um, I'm afraid of feeling not with it.

So, like, when you go to E3 every year you go, there's that one game. It looks better than everybody else. And then there's the game that's uglier than everybody else. So you kind of feel a little comfortable. You're like, yeah, I mean, somewhere in the middle. [00:12:00] So I feel like when I get there, I'm going to be like, am I going to know, am I going to be with it?

Like there's so many developers now that are doing crazy stuff, like crazy stuff. And you're just like, man, like I'm seeing a lot of stuff that's being done, like in the indie scene, especially it's so creative. They're coming up with so many creative things, and there's so much that I don't know, already.

Just like in art, and what we're working on now, like there's, there's a whole spectrum of kinds of games there. Some that I never even thought would, people would be into, and it's like, they're totally into it. So I'm kind of feeling like, if I get there, I'm gonna, I don't want to feel, I don't want to feel that and be put down by it, or like feel depressed by it, but be inspired by it, like.

So, yeah. Wow, this jungle keeps going, you know, there's more, there's bigger fruits and different plants and you know what I mean? Like, so I want to have that vibe. So I'm kind of afraid of not, of not taking it, [00:13:00] you know, feeling old or something, you know. You know what I mean? Like, I'm afraid of Like the world's passed you by?

Yeah, that kind of thing. 

Alex: We're gonna have a good time. This is gonna be fun. I hope so, yeah.

We do work in the entertainment industry. But as Aaron points out, it's not always fun and games at work. And a conference, a professional conference. That's work. You said, one thing you said, I'm really dreading seeing my peers. So how was um, how'd it go? How was it being at GDC? Did you see any peers? Was it dreadful?

Aaron: Yeah, kind of. I don't, I don't. There was a season of my life where I tried to get the acceptance of my peers. [00:14:00] And I never felt satisfied there. Like it always felt very like 

Alex: fake. I don't know. I'm guessing we've all felt that anxiety before. I have. The desire to be with the crowd and the fear that you won't fit in.

That's pretty natural. Meeting new people is exciting and also scary. It's a lizard brain and you hope to be accepted and recognized, but you also fear being rejected or ignored. So would you go again? 

Aaron: Yes. You would. Yeah. I love going to the parties and meeting people and practicing that. I enjoy practicing it.

I got to get good at it someday. And I would do it differently. I would have a plan. I think I told you this idea. I didn't go there with a plan. I have a plan now next year that I'd go. I think it's good because you need to network. There. I said it, you know, [00:15:00] you can't escape it. So full circle, I need to start putting.

Shifting some points over. 

Alex: I think there's a lot of reasons why people go to things like this. Recognition, that's one. To do business, that's another. But it's not surprising to me that 30, 000 folks every year crave the company of their peers.

What are you afraid of? Sometimes the answer is people. Stay with us. Coming up next, Aaron Marroquin will discover what it's like to grow up, going to this conference for decades, and how that might shape your view of the world.

Aaron: My friend Patrick Curry and I, we have a few things in common. Don't really 

Patrick: like crowds. Yeah, being around [00:16:00] tons and tons of people or tons and tons of strangers. That's not like my favorite, my favorite mode. Part two, growing 

Aaron: up gamer. Patrick Curry is the founder and CEO of Farbridge Entertainment.

They're a video game studio in Austin, Texas. He's been making games since his teenage years. He's worked as a programmer, a designer, a creative director, and an entrepreneur. He's been going to GDC yearly for decades, 

Patrick: decades. I kind of equate it to being like a regular at a bar, right? Like first time you go to a bar, you don't know the bartenders.

You don't know any of the regulars. You don't even know what's good there. Can you trust the cook? We'll see. 

Aaron: Patrick has come a long way. He got his start as a scrappy web developer. Then he worked his way up to a design lead on a John Woo movie adaptation. He was a creative director at Disney and like the rings of a tree, the annual conference by the Bay has chronicled his journey from outsider to [00:17:00] insider.

What was your 

Patrick: first GDC? What was your first GDC? I think the very first one I went to was 2002. It was still in San Jose. GDC definitely felt like. a secret club at that point. I think there had been some big announcement in around GDC where I just felt like I'd missed out. I was like, Oh my God, people I know are there.

Why, why aren't I there? And then when I went, the cool thing in the San Jose days was the convention center is not that big, but it's very approachable. And there's basically one bar nearby. And so the whole conference went to the same bar after the events. And then you could like walk up to anybody and be like, Oh, there's Romero or, you know, whoever.

And they're just like a couple of booths over having a drink and you can go say hello and that definitely felt elite. But if you were there, then everybody was open to talking to you. 

Aaron: 2001, 2002, that was quite a long time ago, [00:18:00] certainly in technology terms, just to give you an idea, there was no Roomba.

The X Box had just come out, the iPod, the flipping iPod. That had just come out. In Patrick's early career, when he first started going to the conference, I think he drew a lot of inspiration from the people that he saw there. It may have started at that first conference when he saw John Romero, the creator of Doom, 

Patrick: but then I caught one of Will Wright's super famous talks that has like 900 slides in 50 minutes.

And then Gabe announced Steam like valve is like, Hey, we're making this crazy thing. It's called steam. And I remember sitting in the audience being like, what, this is crazy. And then I am a huge Mark Cerny fan. I've learned so much from Mark Cerny, GDC talks and articles over the years. And I found myself in an elevator in a hotel, just me and Mark Cerny.

And I was trying so hard to play it cool. 

Aaron: Name dropping aside, Patrick clearly enjoys [00:19:00] going to the conference, being inspired by his heroes. I mean, in a lot of ways, they give him permission to embark on this crazy journey of getting into the game business. Fast forward, and by 2006, Patrick found himself working as a lead designer on a major AAA game.

His network was expanding, and his role in the community was about to change. 

Patrick: Richard and I worked at Midway at the same time. You know, he didn't live in Chicago. He was the head of game design overall for the publisher. And I was working on Stranglehold, one specific video game, but we met on that project and we hit it off and then, uh, we would see each other at Midway events, but then we'd also see each other at GDC events.

And Richard's one of those guys who gives a talk. And so then we would like hang out at GDC. And I remember one night we stayed up way too late outside on a park bench. And I think we both got like the flu or pneumonia because we're just like out late, just talking about game design all night. Uh, and we were off doing our own things at different companies [00:20:00] then.

And then, you know, I had always wanted to be a speaker at GDC and a couple of times I got to, and then I like run into Richard at the speakers lounge at GDC. And I'm like, Holy cow. This guy used to be in charge of all video games for all the midway. Or at least the design of them. And now here we are, we're peers.

This is awesome. Uh, and then flash forward a few years later, like we recruited him to Farbridge and now we're working on video games together, you know, that's a relationship that has a real, real strong through line at, at GDC. 

Aaron: Patrick's journey started as a young, impressionable game developer. GDC was a primary source of inspiration for him today.

And for the last seven years, he's been running his own game studio and he's a little bit of a veteran. He knows all the good hangouts. He knows where all the parties are, but when he heads to GDC, it's all business.

Patrick: Oh man, I'd love a 10 million deal right now. That'd be amazing. What 

Aaron: is one thing you never, ever, if you could give just one [00:21:00] advice, okay, you're about to go pitch a game, never do this, like ever. Like, I know you want to do this. Don't do it though. Like I would say, 

Patrick: don't ask for money. Asking for money is, is literally just part of business.

I think when you grow up without a lot of money, asking for money feels real scary and like a bigger deal than it is. And I think I eventually matured and got over that and I just learned like, this is how it works. There's no, there's no business without money changing hands. Nobody gives money to strangers.

If someone you didn't know ran up to you on the street, it was like, yo, give me 10. You're gonna be like, no, no, I don't know. You get away from me. And so in the game industry, if someone runs up to you, it's like, yo, give me 10 million. You're like, well, you're a total stranger. Like you got a cool pitch deck, but what?

Aaron: All right. So you're going through 50 meetings in a week at a show like this. How do you have your highs and lows? You know, like you're probably going to walk into a meeting that has [00:22:00] like high stakes and then you just come out of one where, you know, like maybe like, oh man, you know, like how, how do you deal with that?

Patrick: I don't know. Oh, I, no, I definitely deal with it. And I, I mean, I'm, I'm imagining real specific years that have had. High highs and low lows. Like there was one year when we were out pitching a game and we just got the same real consistent, like, yeah, this is neat, but, and we were just like, this isn't going where anywhere.

And I think I left that conference pretty upset. Um, and just depressed about the situation. Like, I'm not trying to put all my emotional hopes and dreams on just one video game anymore. I, I try really hard not to take it personally. It's always hard. Like we're making art ultimately. Right. These are it's commercial art, but we're passionate about it and we're proud of it.

And I just try to remind myself that, you know. They know from a publisher or a partner doesn't mean that I'm bad at this,

but if you go to these events, you know, year after year after [00:23:00] year, you see the same people, you bump into them. Even if you haven't done business with them yet, you start to even recognize each other like, Oh, you're a GDC regular. I see you every year and you get to know these people and you know, that builds trust and rapport.

And you also have this thing in common because you do this crazy annual ritual and you know, that means that we're more of the same than different.

Aaron: Sometimes the video game business is all fun and games, but sometimes it's not. Coming up, making it to the top, then having a falling out. Alex presents a story about taking a path from the innermost circle to a position very much as an outsider.

Alex: For this next segment, we wanted All the way back to the beginning, the very start of the conference in 1988. [00:24:00] So we tracked down the dude who started it, Mr. Chris Crawford. Chris is a pretty interesting cat. I'd never met him before and his relationship to games. To art and the conference itself is, shall we say, complex.

Chris: Good dreaming is hard work. It takes energy and talent and experience, but mostly work. 

Alex: This is part three, The Founder and the Breakup. 

Chris: One way to understand dreams is to To, uh, to think of them as existing between two extremes. 

Alex: This is Chris at the 1993 game developer conference. He gave a pretty memorable speech that year.

It's called the dragon. It was memorable for a lot of reasons. He's a really good presenter. He speaks very well. He's got a lot of energy. He moves around. There's a video of this on the internet. You can see what I mean. If you watch it. But it was also his farewell to the industry. [00:25:00] He literally runs out of the room when the speech is over, holding a sword over his head.

There are two things you quickly realize when you meet Chris. One, he really believes in art, and he believes video games and technology are mediums for making art. The second, is he's kind of a frustrated soul. 

Chris: I explained that I really had to leave the games industry, because My goal was to make art with the computer and the games industry had veered away from that.

During the 80s, game design was just spreading out into a million different directions and It really had a lot of promise to become something really impressive like cinema. But then money intervened. And by the early nineties, it was obvious that no games were [00:26:00] narrowing down to just action, violence, uh, uh, juvenile kind of stuff.

Alex: And when I say frustrated, that's not criticism. I think he's got good reason for being frustrated. 

Chris: 30 years, I worked on interactive storytelling. And during that time, I just had failure after failure after failure. And I decided, okay, throw away everything and start all over from scratch again, which I did.

And I ended up building a completely new strategy for interactive storytelling. And then I built a story world based on that technology, uh, called Le Morte d'Arthur. It's about the Arthurian legends. I published it a little more than a year ago. It's on my website. That's my definition of publishing. I've made it available to the public.

I've made no effort to [00:27:00] publicize it. It's just out there for anybody. And I'm very proud of it. It is genuine art, the real thing, no kidding around, very serious. It's about the meaning of life and about death.

Alex: What's it mean to you? Like, what, what is, what does art mean to you in interactive? 

Chris: Art is an expression about the human condition. It says something useful or interesting about the dilemmas we face in life. and how we cope with the ugliness that is so rife in the world. 

Alex: Chris sees video games as a whole new kind of artistic canvas.

Chris: The decisions you make, you have to make, and there are, [00:28:00] uh, several hundred, uh, such decisions. It's not fun at all. This is serious art. It is interesting, and it's It is really about death. Death slowly creeps up on you. Starts off with no death and then a little child dies of a disease and then another child is killed in an accident.

Slowly the deaths come closer and closer to you until finally you face your own death. 

Alex: This kind of art is not really what the game industry is known for. And I think that really suits Chris because he, he thinks of himself very much as an outsider at this point. This in many ways is directly related to his experience with the conference.

And to put that into perspective, let's go back to Chris's [00:29:00] start.

His professional career started in 1975. So, so long ago. This is before Star Wars. I mean, it was the year Bill Gates started Microsoft. There was no internet. Chris basically had to invent how to make a game. I mean, he was literally day one of the game industry. 

Chris: I was looking for a job. And the best I could find was, uh, at Lawrence Livermore Lab, writing software for targeting nuclear weapons, which didn't really, you know, appeal to me, but high paying job and it was science at least.

Alex: Chris is a pretty technical guy. He's actually got a master's in physics. His thesis was called, Dynamical Parallaxes of Visual Binary [00:30:00] Stars. Heavy stuff. But one day, his wife, looking to help him find a job he might actually enjoy, Opened the yellow pages. 

Chris: Uh, have you ever heard of someplace called Atari?

I said, no. She said, well, I'll call them in the morning. So she called him the next morning and, uh, she spoke with HR, uh, and, uh, said, well, my, my husband, uh, has done computer games and, you know, if you guys have a job opening. And the lady said, oh, well, where is he now? And she said, well, he's back at home in Davis.

Yeah. And she said, Davis, you guys Aggies? See, Davis was a small university town, University of California, Davis, which was the agricultural school at first. And people who graduated from there were called Aggies. And so she said, you guys are Aggies? I am too. Here, uh, come, I'll have him come down for an [00:31:00] interview with me tomorrow.

And one thing led to another, I got the job at Atari. 

Alex: From there, Chris started making games. He made games for the Atari 2600, and he made software for the Atari 800 computer. He had so much energy for it, in fact, the company would send him out to meet with developers to get them excited about making games for the Atari.

But then, in the early 80s, the game industry, it almost died. Business completely dried up. A lot of people lost their jobs. 

Chris: And so, in, uh, beginning of 84, Atari began a round of layoffs. And it was just one layoff after another, after another. We went from 10, 000 employees in Sunnyvale to about 500. In four months, I was one of those who got laid off.

The entire industry collapsed. All the people building games lost their [00:32:00] jobs. I know at least two who committed suicide. And there were a lot of people who were really badly hurt. 

Alex: Chris managed to pick himself up. He took a severance package from Atari, bought himself a Macintosh, and started making games again.

Eventually, one of his games got noticed by a publisher called Mindscape, and that turned into the game Balance of Power. Which did really, really 

Chris: well. I got nearly half a million dollars in royalties from that thing. I mean, this was 1985. Those sales figures were unheard of. It also made me famous. Chris Crawford, Mr.

Atari. Famous people recognized me in the airport. And, uh, wow, my head inflated that much. I was just, wow, I'm really cool, yeah, yeah. And, uh, then Atari collapsed and I was Mr. [00:33:00] Nobody, you know, nobody cared. Nobody, you know, nothing like that. And then Balance of Power came out and I'm Mr. Famous again. And this time I was a little more, uh, circumspect about it, or less enthusiastic about it.

I was a real big shot for, oh, nearly 10 years. And then that went away. And so I've learned the lesson, fame don't mean shit. 

Alex: Anybody who was making video games in the eighties was impacted somehow. But that video game crash and getting laid off can be, it can be pretty isolating. Finding big success and getting on the cover of magazines can, it can be pretty isolating too.

It was after those experiences, I think Chris really wanted to find his, his own tribe. 

Chris: The late eighties were a grand time for me. I was, there were a lot of stories about me and then I founded the Game Developers [00:34:00] Conference. I've thought of it as just, Hey, let's get some of the guys together. The industry was recovering by the late eighties and there were more and more people getting into it.

The Game Developers Conference grew and grew and grew. 

Alex: But do you have good memories of that very first? 

Chris: Yeah, it was, it was fun. It's hard to in this, in this day and age with social media and instant communication and you know, so forth. Uh, and it's easy to find people. It's hard to appreciate just how special that thing was.

Very few of us had ever met each other face to face. In fact, very few of us even knew of each other's existence. And so I had simply announced it. I had done the journal of computer game design, which people by word of mouth heard about and subscribed to. And I just. mentioned, I had one little paragraph about that, a [00:35:00] game symposium at my place, uh, this day, show up.

Alex: The 

Chris: very first 

Alex: GDC, was it really in your basement? 

Chris: No, it was on the second floor of my house. It was so exciting to say, wow, I've, I never knew, what have you done? And, oh, you did that? And, uh, uh, it was just very, uh, exhilarating, I suppose. Very powerful experience. 

Alex: Just imagine it. It's before the internet.

There's no Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, anything online. You really have no idea what other people are doing, how they're, like, making games. We're all figuring it out independently. So this conference, GDC, this was, like, the first time these people were getting together, and it was tremendously exciting for Chris.

You could hear it in his voice, and for a lot of other people, too. 

Chris: When I first [00:36:00] started it, I gathered some people together. I knew I'd need different viewpoints. And I got one guy to be the treasurer and I said, okay, well, we want to incorporate as a nonprofit to, to, this is not a commercial effort. This is a social community project.

And he said, well, there's a problem with that nonprofits. You really got to do a lot of complicated reporting. It'd be a huge job, much easier to just do it as a for profit and don't make a profit. Well, that was fine until we got up to. You know, a thousand attendees. And we had a big problem with what we call wannabes kids wanting to come to the conference and the real designers couldn't find each other in the crowd of kids.

So we started raising the prices to chase the kids away. But then what do we do with the money? Well, okay, well, we'll have a [00:37:00] really spectacular banquet and we'll have Free food all day long. Ice cream, uh, Jolt Cola. We'll have free Jolt Cola for everybody. We kept coming up with ways to spend money, but we couldn't spend it fast enough.

There were just too many people coming too fast, and we had to raise prices too high, and so we started making serious money, and that's what ruined the conference. I was stuck with a major problem. Most of the other board members were seduced by the money. I was immune to that seduction because I'd already gotten a lot of money.

These were working stiffs who didn't have a lot of money. And so, uh, boy, they really wanted it. And I was resisting and I finally. Said, okay, look, I'll buy you out.

They said no. And instead they kicked me out and took my stock, [00:38:00] uh, by majority vote. And, uh, then they tried to run the conference themselves and it was a disaster. So they sold it for 3 million. 

Alex: Chris ended up having a lot of legal back and forth with the remaining management of GDC. They worked things out, but.

I don't think anybody was happy at the end. 

Chris: Uh, that was the end of that. It was a horrible time for me. I went into a deep depression for about two years. I was, I couldn't do anything. I just spent all my time moping. So, 

Alex: bleh.

What happens when you leave a community, or are rejected by it, or you reject it? Especially a community that you started. It's kind of like a breakup. He told me that 10 years ago, he submitted a proposal [00:39:00] to give a talk on interactive storytelling. At GDC. They rejected it. I think GDC has had a pretty big impact on a lot of people.

Do you think about it that way? 

Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, it's had a huge impact on the industry. And a very positive one. I don't, in any way, uh, dislike it. It's just, it's not for me. I once described to a reporter, uh, for my attitude towards the GDC. And that is, I brought it to life as a cult. And it was so cute and so much fun.

And I was so proud of nurturing this thing and building it up to something. And then it grew up and became a tiger. And yes, tigers are impressive, they're powerful, and so forth. But tigers aren't [00:40:00] fun. And, uh, I don't want to play with tigers. So, go your way tiger, have fun. Bye. Uh, I have other things to do.

Alex: I can't really imagine what it would be like to be young again. In this day and age, a universe of information at your fingertips. But in some ways, I think maybe I had a nice advantage, or at least my generation. We grew up, Digitally isolated, there was no digital life, you know, there's no internet. And the world was a big mystery.

I had no idea how anything worked. There's something to be said for having to figure things out the hard way. I think it forces you to be inventive and to explore. In [00:41:00] this next segment, Aaron's going to share with us a story of a young indie development team that figured things out their way and made it big.

Aaron: Part four, emerging from the cocoon. What do we hope for most from the community? Acceptance? Growth? Not to be rejected? Some just want to be seen. I can't 

Mikael: believe we're a real game company. 

Aaron: This is Mikhail, one of the developers from Geometric Interactive. And yes, they're definitely a real game company.

Together with their small team in Denmark, they built an indie game called Cocoon. They put a lot of effort into it. 

Jakob: So from the conception of the idea, we started the company in 2017, around the beginning of [00:42:00] 2017. And, uh, and Jeppe had the idea in his head for the game and he was explaining it to me and, and it was like, I didn't understand anything of it.

It was like pure nonsense to 

Aaron: me. And this is Jakob Schmidt, one of the founders of Geometric Interactive. And along with Michael and Erwin, their art director, we got a chance to talk to them about their new game and follow them to the Game Developers Conference. 

Jakob: So he was, uh, working on that alone. And then I, I joined him and I started writing some code that would end up being in the game, but I started developing a lot of stuff there.

Yeah. And then since we grew so slowly, we were from 2017, we, we, we ended up slowly adding members to the team and we were finished in last year in October. 

Aaron: You see, small indie teams are often where new and different ideas come from. They're not burdened by best practices or chasing the latest craze.

Jakob's art [00:43:00] director, Erwin, like a lot of indie developers, never made a game before. I think the idea 

Mikael: of joining AAA Studio, it just scared me off because I did see job postings and you know, like the requirements for it and which I didn't have because I'm, I'm not from the game development field.

Whereas when, when Jakob and, and Jabba approached me, it was like, Oh yeah, but I, you know, I've, I've tinkered around in Unity and I, I know how to make 3d art. So yeah, let's just roll with it and see where I end up. I don't really have like a plan for my career of I only want to work in indie games or something like that.

Aaron: Everything about Geometric Interactive is indie. The small team, the outsider backgrounds, even the early days of technology in Denmark had this very underground vibe to it. 

Jakob: We had this kind of demo scene culture that came from the cracker groups from the 80s. And then it kind of grew into this kind of competitive, creative [00:44:00] environment.

It all had this kind of like, kind of a graffiti vibe to it, very irreverent and fun. A lot of them ended up starting companies. 

Aaron: So this is basically the ingredients of indie game development. That small outsider team of exceptionally passionate and talented people, stir together for six years, add a dash of scrappiness, and of course, the constant search for funding.

Jakob: There was a time when Jeppe and me, we were, we had six kids. Saved up some money. So we were just running on our own money. And then the first thing we had to pay for was Evan's salary. And then we got another employee. We had to pay salary and we did get grants from the government, but it can only cover like half our expenses at the most, so we have to come up with the rest.

We ended up getting from Xbox. We got a game pass deal pretty early on, and then we got an Annapurna publishing deal, and then they funded the rest of [00:45:00] the development from that point on. 

Aaron: Six years of development plus self funding, a government grant, and two publishing deals. So you know they've put their hearts into Cocoon.

It's a beautiful and fun game, by the way. You should really give it a try. In fact, it's been nominated for a lot of awards. Like, a lot. And that's part of why we're going there, to the conference. There's a big awards show there. But when I ask them what they're looking forward to the most at the conference, it has nothing to do with the awards.

Jakob: The last time we were there with a game, we had to stand and people would play it and talk to you. And it's like, it's so rare. We get that opportunity to just have some random game fans play the game. And that's, that's always the, the best part of, Any trip I go to is if someone plays it and talks about something they find interesting or, or like, or, or, or don't like or anything.

It really is, is fascinating, I think. 

Aaron: Alright. You've been nominated for a lot of [00:46:00] awards this week. Excited. Uh, it is just 

Jakob: overwhelming to get this kind of recognition. We, we, we have been in a little bubble making this game for so long. And we have not been out there and we don't know how people were going to feel like right on up until we released it.

We were unsure of if people are going to like it or not. And now this is, I think it is very overwhelming to get the recognition that we've, we've gotten, but of course we're super happy. Yeah. It's just.

Aaron: After six plus years of developing their game, Cocoon has finally come out, and they let us come along with them to the Game Developers Conference. 

Alex: You were saying 

Aaron: you were jet lagged. 

Jakob: I am jet lagged. I'm, uh, I'm waking up at four in the morning, and it's like, oh, what to do now, what to do now? And, and then falling asleep before the party starts.

It's, it's really sad. 

Aaron: All right, so, uh, so what else is planned for today? Like, uh, are you gonna take a break? If you are.[00:47:00] 

Jakob: I find it hard to stay away from the booth because I don't know if people are coming here and they're curious I feel like I should be here to answer questions. I always feel like that. That's like my It's the most Inspiring part of the of the show is if you bring a game and people come and they talk about it I think that's so so cool It's rare.

We get that opportunity because we normally people are just far away when they're playing our game 

Aaron: for a small indie game like cocoon The recognition from a great review or a big award, it can really turn their game into a huge commercial success. So are you guys nervous for 

Jakob: tonight? I'm, uh, slightly nervous because I'm worried I might have to go on stage at some point, but, uh, but apart from that, uh, I'm, I'm looking forward to it.

It's always a fun show, I think. 

Mikael: I'll get nervous in a few hours, not yet. I'm gonna enjoy being here first. [00:48:00] I'm already nervous. I also got a talk on Friday, so I got like several layers of nerves going on. 

Aaron: The Game Developers Conference is five days long. There are presentations and lectures every day. On the Wednesday night of the conference is an award show honoring games in many different categories, like narrative, visual arts, audio, and of course, the coveted game of the year.

Cocoon was nominated in eight different categories. More than any other game.

We didn't win anything. 

Jakob: We were nominated for a lot of things and we won none of them. I think, uh, we were, we were there and we were, every time there was one we, we didn't win, I feel like it was like, yeah, okay, that's fine. It was like the other one looked good, the winner looked good and makes sense. But then there was this kind of [00:49:00] like, what if we don't win anything?

I was looking forward to, you know, Getting every, we was, we were like a whole group here. I was looking forward to getting everyone up on stage and looking silly and being happy and, and, and giving awkward speeches. And I, I was a little sad that we didn't get that moment. 

Alex: Yeah, 

Mikael: I was super stressed. I had a speech written out just in case I had to go on stage and say something, but then it didn't sync with my phone, so I'm like, oh crap, so the whole time I was trying to remember, like, okay, what am I supposed to say?

And then in the end, like, all of that stress was like, sort of for nothing. But uh, it was, I thought it was really fun to see the table next to us. The guys who made Mediterranean Inferno, they were talking about struggling with getting funding and getting more people to become aware of the game. Uh, and you know, them winning award for best narrative, I think is really cool because they're like a small team.

Uh, and it's a queer story and being gay men myself, like, I think it's really fun that, that, uh, kind [00:50:00] of those kinds of projects get highlighted and get recognized. Uh, and, and so we, we went out to dinner with them, uh, afterwards. They're just lovely guys, and I don't know, I'm just really happy that they got at least an 

Aaron: award.

This right here is what the conference is all about. In a lot of ways, this is what community is all about. Acceptance, recognition, camaraderie. Finding what we all have in common and rooting for each other. 

Mikael: You know, we were like a little bit disappointed. Like, oh, we got like eight nominations, not winning anything.

But then you see these other small teams. And, you know, it's It's hard for them to get recognition, to get funding and all this. I feel like them getting this opportunity to be more in the spotlight, that it really means a lot. So it, I don't know, I'm also really happy for them, actually. 

Jakob: Somehow this, showing the game is the most impactful thing for me.

So it's like, when I'm there, I'm the most focused I ever am. And when I'm at, when I was at the Wards yesterday, I was, I was grumpy because I didn't, didn't have [00:51:00] the food to eat before I went. And I was a little bit annoyed with the whole thing and then we didn't win. It's like, okay, yeah, whatever. But, uh, but, uh, being at the, the, the IGF pavilion and meeting people that was like the highlight of my day anyway, and it's going to be today as well.

Jakob and

Aaron: Erwin's story is pretty wonderful. If you ask me, there's something about video games, games, just the idea of play. It's so core to the human experience. And there's a real art to the creation of play. It's a medium, like painting. It's a language of its own. And for anyone in a creative field, once you've made something, the real joy is sharing it, and allowing the world to enjoy it too.

Jakob: We've been in a cave for seven years, working on something. And we, we didn't know how people would gonna, were gonna receive it. We didn't know. [00:52:00] We thought maybe some people would like it, but this recognition we're getting and the award nominations or something. It's like we, we, we came out of the cave.

We're into the light. We, we, we don't, we don't even know what we're doing at this point because we were just in there. And doing the, uh, doing our stuff. And now it's like a weird world where, Oh, people know about it now. And they talk about it and they have opinions about it. It's a little scary, but it's also quite beautiful.

I think.

Alex: Thank you for listening to the show today. And a big thank you to our sponsor, Overwolf. For helping to support the stories of the video game industry. If you'd like to hear more from our friends at Cocoon, tune in to the regular 4th Curtain podcast where we spend a little bit more time with Jakob and Erwin about their origin stories and how Cocoon really got made.

By the [00:53:00] way, here's Aaron's response when I told him we were going to GDC this year. 

Aaron: What kind of snacks do they have? 

Alex: Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next time. 

Aaron: Thank you for listening to the fourth curtain podcasts. The fourth curtain is a production of fourth curtain media with community management by Doug Zartman, lovingly edited and mastered by Brian Hensley at noise floor sound solutions in Chicago.

To get a peek at upcoming episodes or to sending questions to the show, visit our site at the fourth curtain. com and be sure to follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for listening.