Jordan Weisman Makes Stuff Up

Jordan: [00:00:00] Oh, yeah, you know, and I always say one of the key attributes of a good entrepreneur is being really fucking stupid because you have to be ignorant of what you're about to go do because otherwise you would, you would never do it. I mean, we, you know, we made history, but it was stupid to get there.

Alex: Well, that was Jordan Weisman talking about, um, Hey, you gotta be a little bit stupid. Just say it. I mean, I wouldn't say it that way, but like, I know exactly what he's talking about. I think if you know. If you know what you have in store, if you know the pain that's about, it's why it was, it kind of reminds me.

I, so I did, uh, I actually went and did the Chicago triathlon this weekend. Hey, nice. 

Did you finish it? I did finish, but it was, 

Alex: It was a little close. It was very hot and humid. And, um, I think one of those things it's like right beforehand, I'm like, Oh, this is awesome. I can do like a, [00:01:00] like a, an Ironman. And then afterwards I'm like, I don't want to fucking do it again.

And you kind of got to be a little ignorant. You know, to take that first step into the unknown. Right. 

Right. I think so. I think that's how you get good tasting food, friends, like good friends, you know, 

Alex: yeah, that's how 

you make new stuff 

Alex: is experimenting and going into the unknown. So, yeah, yeah, totally have to sort of like not know things to do the unknown, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. So we had a really. Just such a fascinating, great conversation with Jordan. Um, yeah, it was awesome. So much. 

He had it. Yeah. I, whenever we emailed him later, I was like, Hey man, you know, you had a really big impact on my life. Oh my God. He did. 

Alex: Yeah. And impressed that not to give anything away, but that he's been able to work professionally with his family, with his wife and now with his sons.

Um, Something that I [00:02:00] haven't really done so much. Are you the very first game, the very first game that I did? My brother helped me out with, um, a friend of mine, um, friend of ours, family friend did, uh, art for the first, um, bungee game, but operation does string game and did the box art. Um, and all that stuff, he was like a friend, like my oldest brother and him were friends.

So you're kind of helping out. Yeah. No, it's cool. Cool times. How you 

doing? What's happening? What's going on? I know you can't tell right now because I'm super chill I did not do a marathon. I walked for half an hour and I feel like I did But I'm really excited. How hot is it in Austin? Is it like super hot?

I'm not in Austin, Magnolia. Come on, sorry, Magnolia. Why did I say Austin? I don't know, because you think Texas and you think it's Austin. It's 

Alex: because every time I say that you're from Houston, you say you correct me. So you're from Magnolia and you say it's near Austin because I think you want to be from Austin more than you want to be from Houston.

Well, 

[00:03:00] it's 

Alex: I think that's a subconscious. I like 

Magnolia. This is the first city I've been very proud of. Like, I am really proud of Magnolia. We have one of the best IPAs in the world. It's like a good town. Something to be proud of. Did I interrupt you? What are you so excited about? Space Marine 2 comes out in So you've got Space Marine right behind you?

Yeah, that's the board game. I got it. I haven't opened it though, but I'm, I'm very excited for this game. I bought it twice. That's how excited I am. I got it for the PS5 and for the PC. Cause I know my wife's going to go. It sounds like a war zone in here. Get out of the living room. So then I'll be like, all right, I'm just going to go to work and you're going to fire it up on your computer.

Yeah. I think that game's going to change the, it's going to be game of the year. Mark it, mark my words. 

Alex: Really? What's the over under on that? I'm taking the under. [00:04:00] Um, not, not for any reason other than there's been a lot of really good games this year. 

There has been a lot of good games. There's a lot of contenders.

I think there's at least, I want to say five, definitely three. That have been some of the best games in their, in their genre. But I think this game is going to be, it's going to, it's going to be the kind of game, and I'm just guessing it's kind of a hope I could be totally wrong, but it's going to have elements because a lot of games, like a lot of games that have come before this game did a lot of things really right.

And this game is kind of like, it looks like it's going to pack a lot of that stuff from all these other games. And it's going to just be done like. In a really cool setting. If that makes sense. Like I'll give you an example. You have a really cool, like horde mode, but it's in like a SWAT team type game.

Right. Or you have a really good co op mode, but it's like in a fantasy [00:05:00] dragons game. You have a really good. 

Alex: Well, it sounds like you're, you're just. Not a huge fan of these other genres. 

No, no, no, no, they're just kind of siloed and this one takes like puts them all together I think so from what I've seen and maybe it could just be really good marketing and I'm a sucker You know, I'm a sucker dude 

Alex: It's not being a sucker.

You're it's a fan. 

You're a fan. Yeah, and I'm Marcy. It's 

Alex: for you. You're a fan. Yeah, so good I'm glad you're excited about that on that note Hope you enjoy our conversation with Jordan A journeyman entrepreneur and a super creative guy. Um, really great, really great conversation. Hope you enjoy it. We'll see you on the other side.

Welcome to the podcast friends today. We have with us a true creative legend Jordan Weisman has been at the forefront of so many cool fun exciting things from pen and paper games to immersive reality games to Alternate reality games. He's the [00:06:00] founder of fazza corporation where battle tech and shadowrun were born the founder of virtual worlds entertainment where The Battletech universe, uh, was available for folks like us to go in person and get into pods and, uh, have combat with each other.

Um, I really want to talk about, uh, virtual worlds entertainment because I remember that in Chicago. Also the founder of Fazzer Interactive, making video games right down the block from us at Bungie and also acquired by Microsoft, uh, the developer of Crimson Skies. So many companies, Jordan, 42 entertainment, where he made the ARG.

I love bees, Smith and Tinker, hair, braid schemes, a few more. Like I said, a creative legend. He's been named an entrepreneur of the year by Ernst and Young. I never got that. Um, and he's won a Peabody award. My goodness, man. It's [00:07:00] been a hot minute. So good to see you, Jordan. How are you? Wait, you didn't mention WizKids.

Did. I didn't mention Wiz kids. Oh my gosh. Aaron's favorite. . How did I skip over that? Founder of Wiz Kids. Makers of the hero. Clicks. Collectible. Miniatures. I think he, I wiz Kids is still going, right? 

Jordan: It is. Yeah. Yeah. It's still sticking around. Yeah. Was was Wiz Kids acquired by, so Wizkid's was acquired by Tops and then Tops.

That's right. Sold it off to Necca. Uh, a company out in, and uh, in New Jersey and it's still, yeah, still clicking along. Right on. Pun intended.

Alex: Well, um, all right, so there's so many things to chat about. Where do, where do we start? Well, I 

was going to say the Battletech pods. I didn't know. I didn't actually didn't know until you read the intro that that was something you were involved with. We had those in Houston. Yeah. 

Alex: Yeah. I 

remember. It was like.

I can't write. It was, it was kind of expensive to play. And I remember I like went in and I sat down and it was, [00:08:00] I was so bad. And there were people there, there were regulars, they were like teams and they would like, you know, go in there and they'd be communicating. And yeah, it was so awesome. I remember that they keep the, like the, you got to sit inside the mech.

Alex: Yeah. So for our younger listeners, um, maybe we should kind of unpack what that actually was. Cause I have a lot of memories of that as well. Um, Do you want to describe it, Jordan? 

Jordan: Yeah, sure. So, um, uh, virtual entertainment, uh, was started in 1987. Um, actually wasn't called virtual world at the time, cause the whole virtual reality phrase hadn't developed yet.

Uh, it was originally called environmental simulations project. Um, and, uh, and what we built, uh, 

Alex: rolls right off the tongue. Yeah, absolutely. 

Jordan: You can tell why we, we know why we changed the name. Um, Well, it was ESP. Get it? I mean, come on. 

Alex: Okay. Yeah. 

Jordan: Uh, but we opened up a place called the Battletech center and, and, uh, end of, uh, 89, [00:09:00] uh, which was the world's first, um, network simulators available to the public, and so you would.

It was kind of a three act show. You go into the, it was kind of like a sci fi environment based on the property Battletech. Uh, you go in and there'd be a briefing area where you would pick your mechs and, and what landscape, you know, what, what battlefield do you want to be on? Discuss your strategy. uh, environmental effects, all those kinds of things you would figure out.

Then you go into launch bay, everybody would get into their own cockpits. Um, as Aaron said, there was radio to communicate between the cockpits as you, you know, spread out on your mechs and try to accomplish your mission. Most missions, which were just, you know, beating the other guys to the snot. Um, and then, uh, and then afterwards you would leave that and go into the debrief area where And this technology changed a lot over the years, but, uh, where you would get kind of a review, um, uh, of what you had just done.

So we had captured all the network events and it started with just printouts and then it became 2D representations and then it became like 3D cinematic. Uh, films that were made of your [00:10:00] battles, uh, for you to, uh, to discuss. 

Alex: Yeah. 

Jordan: So, um, so yeah, that was, we did the first one in Chicago, uh, where, where Alex and I are from.

And, um, and then, uh, did one in California and two in Japan. Uh, and then Tim Disney. 

Oh, so there wasn't a Houston. It wasn't, there wasn't one. There was. Oh, there was. Okay. So after 

Jordan: Tim got, so after Tim got involved, so Tim, Tim Disney came in and became our lead investor and a partner. And, uh, and together we built 35 of those around the world, including Houston.

Alex: So I was thinking about this, uh, yesterday. Um, What it would be like, or what it would take to start a business like that. Cause you know, I've, you know, I, I have all the scars of like, um, old school retail distribution of video games where you actually have to make physical product and put it in a store.

And I got to imagine it ups the level of difficulty, investment, et cetera, when you're not just making something physical, but you're operating like a. You're operating like retail environment with that business, right? 

Jordan: Oh, yeah. Well, I, you know, and I always [00:11:00] say one of the key attributes of a good entrepreneur is being really fucking stupid, um, because you have to be ignorant of what you're about to go do.

Cause otherwise you would, you would never do it. You would never do it if you knew, you know, I always say, we, we don't do these things cause they're hard. We do them because we didn't realize how hard they were going to be. Um, so yeah, when we started the, that, you know, we had, um, the misconception that we could, uh, and do it all like with off the shelf hardware in, in 1987, when off the shelf hardware in 1987 is dumber than your.

Watches now, right? Um, and we were just, we were just wrong. I mean, we had to end up building up, building our own image car and image generators and network cards. And we had to, we had to build everything and, uh, it costs literally 10 times what we thought it was going to cost. Um, and we almost dropped FASA, which was the company you mentioned that did Battletech and Chedron.

It was a very successful tabletop game company. We almost, we drove it almost to bankruptcy funding. [00:12:00] This insane vision, uh, to, to do this thing. So, yeah, it was, it was just stupid. I mean, we, we, you know, we made history, but it was stupid to get there. 

Alex: Do you, do you think, uh, something kind of like that could, uh, exist today or is there, yeah, the VR 

places are like that.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. I think the, the, you know, the, the void, which, well, that's out of business now, but, but, you know, ones like that are, are very much the same kind of business you could, you could even, you know, I would even say kind of escape rooms are in a similar style of business. Right. Um, you know, it's, it's creating a, uh, a social, highly immersive experience that is a reason to get out of your house.

Right. That's something that's, that's just, you know, Different and more immersive than you can do at home. Um, so yeah, and I think, you know, the, the pros and the cons of those businesses are still the same as they were 40 some odd years ago at this point. Right. Uh, I mean, I think they have those, those benefits of [00:13:00] immersion and social.

Kind of inner, inner connections that work really well. But from a business, there are still a really hard business to do because of kind of the way throughput works and the fact that most people don't go out most night. Right. So on some nights you have excess inventory, right? Like just like a, you know, hotel and other nights you're, Oversold and you can't, you can't keep up.

You need search 

Alex: pricing. 

Jordan: Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. And that's where, I mean, you really, these challenges go back before us, right? If you think about like bowling alleys, exactly the same problem, right? That's why bowling alleys develop leagues. Right. To get you to come in on a Tuesday. You know, uh, and, and the Battletech centers and virtual centers, as you mentioned, Aaron, developed the same thing.

Yeah, they had people. We had leagues, we had competitions. We had, you know, so you had reasons for your regulars to come back and, and, and play on, on, you know, off nights. Yeah, they were practicing. That's 

Alex: fascinating. Um, okay. Well, let's, let's rewind a little bit here. Um, we do, we do share, uh, [00:14:00] Chicago roots.

Um, you grew up in Chicago and like, what was, was, what, what was in the, in and around the house in terms of sort of aspirational hobby type things? Was there technology in the house where, where were you, did you grow up playing D and D I'm imagining 

Jordan: my dad was a book publisher and, uh, and so. Uh, I think that was really kind of inspiring on its own, you know, just lots of great, and he was a huge fan of Mesoamerican, uh, you know, culture and archaeological culture, and which has had a huge influence on Shadowrun, for instance.

I mean, I based all that on, on the books that were laying around the house. Um, uh, I got into computers really young, um, and, uh, you know, There was an eight K pet showed up in my school. Oh yeah. And no one was touching it and so I just, I took over the eight K pet and they, the Commodore with 

Alex: the, the built-in monitor and the monochrome display.

Exactly. We had those at my school too. 

Jordan: And, and when we say eight K, we mean that was, 

Alex: we had those two, there was one machine in that room that had 16 [00:15:00] K and like, but I don't know, whatever sixth graders were gonna do with 16 KA Ram. I don't know. 

Jordan: That's right. I remember thinking, what'd you do with that?

That's just, you know, um, but yeah, I, so I got into computers really young. Um, and, uh, and actually that before D and D cause D and D didn't exist until, uh, 73 and I was, uh, in, I was at that point, a junior counselor at a camp in Wisconsin, um, and one of the. Uh, senior, when it's senior colleges, I, a college kid as opposed to, you know, me, a high school kid brought in, um, D and D it just came out that year.

Alex: Wow. 

Jordan: And, uh, and it just like fucking blew my mind and I, you know, it was a very life changing event for me, not only cause of the game, but also cause I had to learn to read. I was 16 and I hadn't learned to read yet. I was just faking my way through it, uh, as a dyslexic. Um, all of a sudden there was something I really needed to read, you know, for me.

Uh, and, and so I, [00:16:00] you know, uh, Tolkien was my. My, uh, Steve, Dick and Jane run, uh, to finally figure out what everybody was talking about in this game, you know? Uh, and then I got, I went home to Chicago and I got my friends. We went back to Lake Geneva to buy copies of it ourselves. And at the time, the only place in the world to buy it was Gary Gygax's house.

Alex: Oh, this is like, right. Like when it's like, it was, Oh 

Jordan: yeah. Yeah. It did just come out, right. Cause TSR was this little tiny, you know. Publishing company doing tactical study rules. They were doing, you know, uh, historical miniatures until, uh, until D and D. Right. Um, 

Alex: even though that's what TSR, I didn't even know that's what TSR stood for.

TSR stands for tactical studies rules. 

That's amazing. 

Jordan: Yeah. Back in the day. 

Alex: Wow. Okay. All right. Keep going. This is amazing. So you would 

Jordan: go to his house. We go to his house. And cause, and the first floor of the house was the store, you know, and, uh, and Dave Arneson, the coauthor, you know, D and D, um, was man in the store and we were a big sale.

We were seven copies. That was a big deal. He [00:17:00] was very excited about that. So he said, you guys want me to run you on an adventure? Like, yeah. 

Alex: Yes. Hold on, audience, I'm picking my jaw up off the floor. That's like going to Willy Wonka's house 

to buy chocolate. Exactly. 

Jordan: So we go into Gary's kitchen and had the table kind of laid out and on one end of the table there was like a perforated, uh, board with a cutout, like a bank teller, you know?

And, and Dave went and sat on the other side of that. So you couldn't see him, you know, and he had a great voice, a great speaking voice. And so he would, you just had this, you know, telling you the story and every once in a while, you know, his hand would come through the opening when you deposit Dyson, roll these,

he set the hook deep. Oh my God. You know, uh, so yeah, we were, uh, we were, we were pretty hardcore after that. And, and luckily I got to work with Dave very closely in the future years and Gary somewhat too. And, and, uh, but it was, uh, it was a great, a great [00:18:00] origin story for me in gaming. 

Alex: Wow. That's incredible.

That's incredible. I, I had never heard that story before that. That's, um, that's amazing. All right. And then you go, you, you go off to college after that, or? 

Jordan: Yeah, well, you know, not learning to read to your 16 means you're a pretty shitty student. And I was a pretty shitty student even after learning to read.

Um, uh, so I didn't have a lot of college options, but I loved, uh, the water and I love sailing. And so, um, actually got a congressional appointment to go to the United States Merchant Marine Academy, uh, which is in Kings Point, New York. And it's one of the government academies like Annapolis or West Point.

Um, and, uh, um, it was, it was a really fascinating experience. Um, And one of the things that we toured when we were there is they just built this brick bridge simulator. Um, and so it was like recreation of a ship's bridge with big projection screens, with dozens of polygons on every screen, and, uh, it was for learning to navigate ships through into ports, [00:19:00] um, which our students never got to touch, but it was, you know, we got to tour it and.

I saw that thing and I was like, all right, that whole idea of life at sea. Uh, fuck that. I'm going to go make that. I'm going to go make those. I want to go make that thing. Uh, cause that's the future of entertainment. So, uh, yeah, dropped out of school, went home and convinced myself that I could do it by wiring my Apple twos together.

I was wrong. Um, but I fried a lot of other Apple two motherboards. 

Alex: Hold on. Cause I, I had. A similar experience. I don't know if your experience was, was actually like mine, but I tried to hook, uh, my Atari joystick up to my Apple Macintosh computer. Um, simply by grafting a different connector onto the joystick.

At , they were, that's not how electronics works, apparently. ? 

Jordan: Well, the, we, we were trying, yeah. There were no such thing as networks, but I, I knew I wanted to have multiple screens. I wanted multiple Apple two, like one Apple, two per screen. So we, we [00:20:00] did a serial connect bridge between the motherboards of the, of the, um, of the Apple twos to do what?

It can work, but if you're just a little off, then you fry it, you know? 

Alex: So you actually had some understanding of electronics and, and we're attempting to do it the correct way. Enough 

Jordan: to fry a motherboard. Yeah. So the goal here was to kind of create a network, right? So we could shoot information across the serial port from one machine to the next.

Okay. It wasn't to make like a big display or anything like that. 

Jordan: Well, it was, it was the, it was to make a big display, but, but being able to try to keep them in sync with each other. 

Okay. You know, that was the goal. And what were you trying to display? 

Jordan: I was, I was trying to create the, frankly, I was trying to create the Star Trek equivalent of the bridge simulator I had seen at the Academy.

You know, that was that, that, and that was the original pitch I had for, uh, for what the Battletech Center was become before this was long before Battletech was created. So I, I had this pitch about doing entertainment centers and you'd go in and you'd be on the bridge of a starship and you'd have your.

Your whole experience. [00:21:00] And I went out and pitched that to investors after I dropped out of school with pretty predictable results. You know, what the hell is a computer game? Who are you? You're a college dropout. What year 

Alex: is this? What year is this? 

Jordan: This is 70, 79. Wow. Okay. So this was. That was like peak sci 

fi too.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So I basically got laughed out of, uh, laughed out of their offices and, and that's when we started, we started FASA. So, uh, right. I figured, Oh, I'll be rich overnight making paper games and then I can go fund this, this thing I really want to make. I mean, no, they took seven, seven more years later, but luckily, you know, we actually did build a company that was able to fund it.

Alex: That is, isn't it funny how. You know, you come up with these plans that in your head will take X amount of time. And you know, when you are successful, it's usually X times four or whatever, you know, nothing ever goes to a schedule. [00:22:00] No. Yeah. No. So the, so the early FASI years are that, are that seven year span.

That's all pen and paper games, right? That's like, That's right. BattleTek is Shadowrun in that, in that time as well. Yeah. 

Jordan: Yeah. BattleTek and Shadowrun. We started with, you know, doing, uh, products for Traveler for, uh, which was, uh, we were licensed to, uh, uh, game designers workshop out in, in, uh, oh, Southern Illinois, um, and then did a couple of our own games and then, and then I did BattleTek and that kind of changed our profile quite a bit.

BattleTek kind of blew up. And then, and then after BattleTek came Shadowrun. 

Alex: Right. And so the, the. How does that business work or compare to like video games? 

Jordan: Um, it's a lot easier. No bugs. Yeah. Rarely does someone come in and say, the pages aren't staying in the book. Yesterday they stayed in the book.

Today, they're not staying in the book, and we're not sure why. 

[00:23:00] That's good. 

Alex: Yeah, okay. I could see that. How were you selling 

them? Were you like, you weren't selling them out of your house, right? Like, they would like, I remember Shadowrun had like hardcover, they were 

Jordan: Oh yeah, yeah. Well, so, uh, we, uh, We started by just, uh, the one, the one skill I took away from the Merchant Marine Academy was drafting.

And so I, I was drawing up spaceship deck plans for using in our traveler games and people were seeing those at the game club that we had formed and stuff. And, um, uh, I said, well, maybe we should print these and sell them. Um, and so I asked my, you know, my group around the table, who's got a couple hundred bucks come in on this with me and Ross who had been at the academy with me.

I was like, yeah, sure. I'll put in. So. There you go. That's how you choose a partner for 20 some odd years. And this is like, who's around the table has got a couple hundred bucks. Um, and, uh, so, uh, so I, we print, and then I went around to stores in the area and just sold it to the stores. And then I asked them, where do you normally buy your stuff?

And that's how I learned about this thing called distributors. Um, [00:24:00] and so I started developing a list of distributors by talking to stores and then, so, you know, contact distributors, sold to distributors. So kind of figured out the, the network eventually. 

That's smart. So play now, are you still playing anything now?

Jordan: Oh, we play. Yeah. We were a big tabletop family. I mean, two of my, two of my sons are tabletop game designers. And so, uh, you know, they, uh, we're, we're always playing something. Their games, my games, uh, a lot of, we love playing other people's games. You know, my wife, uh, was pretty much like Penny from, uh, Uh, you know, um, big bang theory, uh, but, but became a really good.

So she, she really likes more of the kind of abstract strategy rather than the, you know, the, uh, RPG. So, but we, we, we do play a lot. 

Awesome. Cause sometimes people stop playing, you know, they just keep making games and don't play games. 

Alex: Well, that's your, your current project right now. I was just, uh, uh, I just saw you post on LinkedIn is a new Uh, pen and paper game, [00:25:00] right?

Is that right? Do you get that right? 

Jordan: Well, no, so, but it's easy, easy to be confused because, because, um, my son, my middle, my oldest son created a game called Sea of Legends, uh, which is a, a big, gorgeous miniatures game. And, uh, and, and he put that out on Kickstarter, did very well. And they did a big sequel to it on Kickstarter.

Um, and, uh, and so I've been working for the last three plus years on a project called, uh, Adventure Forge, which is a, a no code video game authoring platform so that lowly people like us who just design games or illustrate them or write them can actually make games without having to know how to afford engineers.

Because I've always just felt that that was the big delta between tabletop and video games is tabletop benefit from a much wider, more diverse and creative pool than video games do. Uh, because there's so much expensive to make and you have to have all these costly engineers and so I really wanted to [00:26:00] try to, you know, get a lot more voices, uh, into video game design.

Uh, and I wanted something that I could just screw around with and make it rather than having to do a design doc and send it to engineering and then they send it back to me and it sucks because anything you write down the first 10 times suck. Um, You know, be able to just screw around with myself and iterate and make it.

So, um, so I've been working on that and, and we have that and, and it's awesome. And, uh, and then we were thinking, well, what's the first game we want to make with that? Um, as, as well as we're going to release it for other people, make their own games. Right. That's, that's, uh, the big, the big goal for that. Um, and, uh, and it just was really impressive what Zach and his partner Ryan had built for that world.

I was like, well, let's, let's take this world and make a video game out of it. 

Alex: Oh, that's awesome. 

Jordan: That's what we're doing. Yeah. So it's both the authoring platform and the video and the game. That's what we're working on. 

And what's it called? The author, the authoring? 

Jordan: The authoring platform is called Adventure Forge.

Um, and it's, you know, go to adventureforge. games. I can see it or, you know, it's, we're, we'll be put it out into, um, [00:27:00] it's in closed beta at the moment. We'll be putting in an open beta later this year. Uh, so we do have a page up on steam. You can wait, you can wishlist there, um, for it. Uh, That's a plug.

Excellent. We'll put it in the show notes too. I'll just try to slip those in where possible. Oh, and did I mention the sea of legends is going to be a Kickstarter and there's a page up for that too. I just got 

Alex: the, I just got the pre reg, uh, notice for that. So I will be participating in that Kickstarter for sure.

Um, So is the idea with Adventure Forge that I can download it, I could make my own game and then does it, is it have a platform built in where I can publish it or is there create some sort of standalone thing I can release? How does that work? 

Jordan: Um, well, both so that, you know, for the easy, the, the, the first level is you can publish it on the platform itself.

Um, so that way you don't have to, you know, set up your own accounts on Steam or iOS or Android or wherever else. Um, so you can publish it on the platform and then people who go to Adventure [00:28:00] Forge can play your game. Um, One of the things that was also important to me is that you, when you share it on Adventure Forge, you don't have to publish it for everybody.

Like if you're working on something and you only want Aaron to see it, you can just share it just with Aaron, right, on the platform. 

Alex: Or, or if like everybody but Aaron, I could do that 

Jordan: too. 

Alex: Come on man! 

Jordan: We don't have exclusions though, that's a good idea. We should, we should add that. Like the entire world but Aaron can play 

this game.

That's nice. 

Alex: This is cool though. UGC straight up. Yeah. This, this, so this, I don't enjoy it. We haven't, we haven't caught up in a little while, but that's what our Aaron and I have a studio where we're basically building games on platforms. So we'd definitely check out. Exactly. 

Jordan: And I know I thought it was super cool what you guys have been doing.

I've been looking from afar. Um, uh, yeah. And so ours is like, you know, trying to take that kind of to the next level by saying, you don't, you don't need engineers to do it. 

Alex: Oh, look at that. Look [00:29:00] at that. We don't, Aaron, we don't need the engineers now. 

You're an engineer. I'm an, I'm a diva artist. That's all we need.

That's all we need. 

Jordan: So basically, Aaron, you can dump it. Make your own games. 

Alex: Um, but that's super exciting. And, um, what's it like working with, uh, your son on this project? 

Jordan: You know, I, uh, I've had the, I've had the joy of working with all my boys in different circumstances and actually on sea of legends, all three are contributing, which is kind of fun.

Um, yeah, so the, uh, It's always interesting, right? Uh, I mean, I think we all are different designers or that every designer brings their own ego to the, to as much as we, are you like, still trying to hide it? You know, we're like, I'm not, I'm going to put that ego in my back pocket and not, but, um, uh, but actually I, I'm in a very, uh, very blessed that I think all of us have really worked well together.

I mean, I've been working with my wife for 30 some odd years now, too. Like we've worked, you know, so many of the companies we've done together. Um, and my father and [00:30:00] her brother and my sister and and our boys we've we've all worked together Uh a lot over the years which has really been and and we still get together.

Thanks 

Alex: Well Have you on this project have you set did you sit down at the beginning and said all right look this is how we're gonna Split up the money. 

Jordan: No, no, no. It's just really easy. It's like, no, we take all the money and then if, and then when we die, you get it. 

Alex: We'll take care of it. No engineers, you get all the money.

I know I got to write this down. I got to write this down. And then how do you settle like, you know, your son's like, okay, here's the thing. And you're like, well, this should be red. He's like, no, no, no, no, no. It should be green. And you have that classic red versus green argument who wins, 

Jordan: right? Well, we hire a colorblind art director Everybody's like art director goes it looks the same to me What are you fucking doing?

[00:31:00] Um, like when my wife and I first started to work together, uh after we were first married Uh, it was a disaster. I think we were Both kind of too young and too needed to be right, you know, kind of thing. Um, but I think one of the few advantages of getting old is you, you stop worrying about that as much.

You're not trying to prove to everybody how smart you are because you've already failed doing that. So you've given up on it by now. And, um, and you can just be a lot more, uh, open, uh, to others ideas. Uh, and also, I think the other thing you realize is that, you know, Sometimes the, the, the passion is what's really the important thing, not whether it's blue or green.

Yeah. Right. And if that, if that passion, if their passion for green means they're going to make it better because of it, well then, then green is probably the right answer. Right. 

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. That, that makes sense. I mean, I, you said something, uh, kind of in passing a minute ago about like the first 10 times you write something down, it's horrible.

[00:32:00] Um, and you know, it's like, That execution is really kind of like what sets things apart. And that's really a product of this iterative process. And so whether it's red or green to start, it almost doesn't matter. It's like, where does it end up when it's, you know, how do you get it? So cool. I love that. Um, so how, how did you decide to, or get to, or make the jump from, I mean, clearly you kind of grew up wanting to do tech stuff motherboards, but Fazzer Corp was, uh, It's like a pen and paper games and FASA interactive, uh, computer games.

And I can't, I don't remember exactly was virtual worlds in the middle or did it come after? 

Jordan: Yeah. So it went, uh, it went FASA and then virtual world. And so virtual world was our technological, you know, trial by fire. Learning to design hardware and software. Why, why, 

Alex: why take a slow ratchet up? Just go straight for the deep end.

[00:33:00] Yes. 

Jordan: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Again, entrepreneurs are stupid. Um, uh, so yeah, so that, that was virtual world. And, and then during this, of course, there was a lot of, um, uh, Battletech, uh, slash McWarrior was, was, uh, doing well in license games. Right. Um, and Activision was producing, uh, at this point now, MechWarrior 2, which they were having a real hard time with, but our, you know, we had done a lot of work in, in, uh, exactly this, right.

How to do multiplayer simulation. So we were able to work with them and, and then their license was expiring right before MechWarrior 2 came out. And we had decided to start Fast Interactive and, um, uh, so that we could take all that we had learned and, and create a PC based game company. Um, and, uh, And Bobby Kotick was like, nah, this, this we're, we're not gonna, we're not interested, you know, fine.

So we raised money, uh, actually from Gilman Louie and Spectrum Holobyte, uh, to farm fast interactive. And [00:34:00] then MechWarrior 2 comes out and triples the size of Activision. Back in the day when a single title could triple the size of a company, you know, uh, and all of a sudden he reacted like Bobby always reacts, which is he sued me really.

I didn't know this because that's why did he sue you? Why did he see you good? Well, what you learn is that with Bobby, when he files suit, it's the equivalent of a normal person calling you. 

Alex: Okay. He just wanted to get your attention. 

Jordan: I just wanted to get, I just wanted to like, I'd like to have a conversation, you know, um, yeah.

And so, uh, so, you know, we were, uh, we were just starting in Fast Interactive, so we weren't really ready to follow up this giant hit with a title right away. So we worked out a deal for them to be able to do MechWarrior 2 Mercenaries. Um, and, uh, and one other expansion why we, why we were spinning up on MechWarrior, on MechWarrior 2.

And then we did 2 and 3 and, and 4 and then Microsoft, uh, acquired FastInteractive, uh, during MechWarrior. Yeah, that was MechWarrior 2. We worked on 3. [00:35:00] Um, yeah, we worked on, uh, right. We worked on MechCommander, which is an RTS. Yeah. So we were working on that at FastInteractive while they were working on, on, uh, Um, back where your sequels.

And then we started spinning up back where your three, which we did with fast after they, I mean, with Microsoft, after they acquired us, 

Alex: okay. All right. So did, did Activision publish any, uh, McQuarrie games after McQuarrie or two mercenaries? Or was there, 

Jordan: I think they did. There was mercenaries and there was one other expansion.

His name, 

Alex: I remember the box had like all the, the, the yellow plume of fire on it. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Alex: It was at two that make warrior two. 

Jordan: That was two. Yeah. That was two. Yeah. The mad cat on the front. Yeah. 

Alex: What did you, like when Microsoft acquired FASA Interactive, that was, that must've been what? 98? 

Jordan: It was. Yeah. It was 98.

It 

Alex: was like a couple of years before us. Correct. Yeah. How, how was your, you know, how was your experience? I'll, I'll [00:36:00] tell, I asked because when, when we were moving out there. They said many times, Hey, we, we don't want to do the same thing we did with FASA interactive because we made a bunch of mistakes, 

Jordan: right?

And. They were saying that because I had forced that down their throat. What are the mistakes? I don't know 

what y'all are talking about. 

Jordan: That was pretty funny because I, Ed's a, Ed is a, is a dear friend and, uh, and we've talked about this a bunch of times over the years. And, uh, and I think he did an incredible job at Microsoft and Xbox.

Same, same, 

Alex: same. We 

Jordan: love Ed. Yeah. And, uh, uh, but I think when, you know, when they, when we started X Box and we started talking to people, right. And we're like, Oh, we've talked to a bunch of guys. Yes. We've talked to a bunch of guys and then we'll, we're going to buy them. So, Oh, okay. That's great. And then we're going to bring them out and integrate them.

Just like we did you guys. And I'm like, what, no, that would be a really big mistake. [00:37:00] Right. Um, because you know, it. When, when we came out and they moved us all out there, we basically got integrated throughout the rest of the studio. And, and part of the issue was, is that I was, you know, reporting directly to Ed as, as creative director for the whole org.

And then the studio was being formed, you know, with within it, but the studio HR reporting meant that you had this kind of really big matrix reporting schedule so that it really, it took, you know, going from that little. Kind of company to being part of this big company. It took a long time for our team to kind of find their feet again and to figure out how to get a good development, you know, process in place in the context of, you know, a place that wasn't really built for doing video games, you know?

Um, and, uh, and it was painful for a lot of the people above that and they, they did great work and they, they, you know, they eventually, I mean, it came together, but it was expensive and long and we didn't have time for that to happen. If we were going to get [00:38:00] Bungie to ship a great title for X Box, right.

So I was talking to Ed and to Robbie and said, you know, we can't, we don't have the time to afford that if we're going to acquire, if we're going to, you know, buy these guys, we have to kind of create a bubble around them. So that, so that they can keep their heads down and do and continue to do fast, good work.

And I argued for trying to get you guys to remain in Chicago. Um, but I didn't win that part, but I did win the bubble part. 

Alex: Well, all right. We have you to thank for, for, for that. I think that 

Jordan: well, at least contributing to, I wouldn't take all the credit, but I'll contribute to it. 

Alex: I, I, I, I mean, I, I can tell you from experience, uh, It did make a huge difference because, um, you know, keep keeping, keeping the team, uh, in the reporting and just like even the space, like, you know, we had a different kind of space than it was, you know, we had like open space, which was not normal at, at Microsoft.

[00:39:00] Um, and all of those things, I think helped kept. Keep the sort of the work rhythm and the culture and, and, uh, you know, you build a lot of these trust relationships based on who you interact with regularly and, and, and what the, those relationships are like. Um, and if you change the, the, you know, I'm reporting to somebody who I've just met now.

It's like, okay, you're kind of starting a new job. 

Jordan: But I, you know, I, I really enjoyed my time there. I, uh, you know, I wasn't a very, uh, kind of a pinnacle job, right. If you're the creative director for, you know, what was going to be one of the big three platforms. Um, so on that side, it was really exciting.

Uh, but it was also a lot of flying around the world and saying things like, uh, have you thought about blue, 

Alex: you know, 

Jordan: um, and rather than, you know, making games myself, um, So that part was, uh, was, you know, a little, a little, I was, I was too far away from the metal, [00:40:00] you know? Uh, so, but, uh, uh, and it was also the other part that was frustrating is, you know, my saying at the time was, you know, Microsoft can open any door, but then it's too big to walk through them.

Um, and that was my experience, right? I'd go out and create what I thought were fantastic opportunities for the, for the organization and we can never get them done. You know, um, because he had, you know, so much, so much bureaucracy and politics and, and agendas, multiple agendas, right? I mean, MechWarrior was a classic example.

Like the team had done this great job of integrating MechWarrior, the current version of MechWarrior into the, all the first person shooter communities, you know, um, and, uh, and really interesting ways. They had done a really great job of coming up with all that. And then they were told to take it all out because Microsoft was going to build its own, uh, First person shooter community one day, which never happened, of course, but, you know, uh, so, but that was, you know, that kind of thing where you [00:41:00] get kind of competing agendas, um, can, can make making one great product gets harder because it has to serve so many masters, you know, is it, is that like, this was early days, right?

Early days, Microsoft didn't really know how to make games at the time, you know, I mean, Ed was figuring it out, you know, and, you know, 

Alex: It is fascinating. Look at that, looking at that whole arc. Cause I, I, you know, I got there after you got there, but even when I, when I got there, it was, yeah, it was, there was just, there was a lot of trial and error happening to get the X Box out the door and to get launch titles, uh, set up some, some, Got finished.

Some did not get finished. Some were good. Some were not good. Some were, you know, very good. Um, and it's, you know, they've built on that over and over and over to what they are today by just buying Activision. And now I just, I, not too long ago, I went and just cataloged just the first person shooter properties that they own.

And it's like most of them, it's bonkers. So is that like the only job [00:42:00] you've ever had? 

Jordan: Well, actually, I mean, uh, no, I've had a couple others. So, uh, after we sold whiz kids to tops, I had a boss again, I worked, uh, I worked with us, uh, reported to the CEO of tops, uh, with great guys. Um, and then, uh, we sold harebrained schemes to paradox.

Uh, we had bosses that, that one did not go off so very well. Um, and then, uh, Uh, and then I was creative director at Walt Disney Imagineering for, uh, several years, uh, working in R& D on interactive theme parks and stuff and 

Alex: Wait a second. Hold on a second. Did I not know What'd you do for that one? That's That's an incredible job.

That's like, that's like if you ask like, uh, and then a 10 year old, what's the coolest job in the history of time? It's that one. It was a cool. Was it cool? Did you, did you work for John Snoddy or who'd you, was he around? 

Jordan: Yes. Yeah. John, after John, John moved into that, uh, when John came back to Disney, uh, and to R and D, uh, he reached out to me and brought me up.

Alex: So wait, what, what years was that? 

Jordan: Oh shit, [00:43:00] I don't know, uh, what was that? That would have been probably like, uh, 2015 ish, I'm 

Alex: thinking. Okay, because I was, you know, I was there from 2009 through 13. 

Jordan: Okay, I'm not sure, I don't, I think, I think it was after you left, but I'm not positive. I have to go look it up.

I'm terrible, I'm terrible at years. It 

Alex: better have been after I left because, uh, because we could have hung out. Well, I was there. 

That's true. Hold on. But what did you do? What did you work on? Can you talk about it or is it all like top secret stuff? 

Jordan: Well, yeah, I mean, I can talk about some of it that's public, uh, cause you know, in R& D you can't make the flying dragon 

Alex: in Shanghai.

Did you work on that? 

Jordan: I did not. No. Super cool. 

Alex: No, 

Jordan: I did not work on that. No, I was working on, um, uh, well, I worked on the interactive operating system that they use for, um, a lot of the stuff now, a lot of the interactive shows, uh, uses this, this authoring system, which we call Helios. Um, [00:44:00] that, uh, tracks customer information.

So it tracks like, Oh, you've met this person before. And last time you said this, like, so when a storm trooper sees you again, like the storm trooper can recognize you, even though it's actually a different actor in the storm trooper, but he can pick it up the conversation and continue that conversation.

Alex: Um, 

Jordan: Uh, and then that also drove, uh, the, uh, and don't, this is a whole episode by itself. We're not going to get into it, but the, uh, the, the star wars, uh, um, starship resort, which was originally my pitch doc, um, was my original and the. Yeah, and the, and the operating system that ran it was, was the Helios system.

Wow. Is that facial recognition or is it using the bracelets, the wrist things? 

Jordan: Um, well, the system, the system uses a whole bunch of different inputs. Um, uh, uh, and I, most, I only, uh, have, uh, I did a bunch of patents while we were there. Cause you know, um, and so I'm only on one patent, which was not about, um, uh, recognizing individuals, but recognizing social groups.[00:45:00] 

Um, to be able to figure out, uh, like which is a family unit, um, so that you can then like be able to treat them as a group on their story. So when you're having the narrative of the group can, can be cohesive. Um, but one of the patents I thought was fascinating that they did, uh, when I was there, that was an input to Helios was what we called shoegaze.

Um, again, I didn't come up with it, but, uh, what they recognize is that. People's shoes are as almost as identifiable as their face. And a lot less, people are a lot less concerned if you're scanning their shoes than their face. Their shoes, you know, you can change your shoes, but for the course of a day, which is what really counted, which was what we care about.

Right. That's like, you know, You don't change your shoes. So we can, that was, I thought it was a great option. 

Alex: Genius genius. So were you, were you down on, in Glendale? Did you come down here and worked in? 

Jordan: I, yeah, I commuted down to Glendale. 

Alex: Yeah. Okay. So you've had a few, you've had a few little minor jobs here, creative director for expo.

And I forgot [00:46:00] Walmart. 

Jordan: I worked for Walmart, really? Yeah, I got the blue vest, the whole thing. You know, sit down and talk to me. 

Alex: I mean, did you ever, did you ever get in a suit at Disneyland, you know, like for the immersion? 

Jordan: Oh, no, I didn't. I didn't. I always wish I did, though. Did you do that? 

Alex: I didn't get to do that.

No, I wish I did. No, I wish I did. I didn't get to do that. I didn't get to do that. 

Jordan: So actually, yeah, the reason I left, uh, I left Paradox is, um, That, uh, uh, a coworker actually from whiz kids, a guy who I was with whiz kids was now head of digital at Walmart. And he and I had always had this on running debate about what's more, you know, he always felt that VR was going to be like this, this, you know, giant thing that transformed the world.

And like, I've been in VR since 87. It's a really cool thing, but it's not cocooning technologies. Don't change the world. I said, you know, augmenting technologies change the world. And I said, you know, if you're, if you're looking for the one that's going to supplant the cell phone, [00:47:00] you know, the, the smartphone, it's, it's going to be augmented reality glasses.

Um, that's, what's going to have that next level of interface that changes the way we interact with each other and the world and data. Um, and they were like, Hey, and then he called me back a year later. It goes well. Why don't you come and tell us what that, what AR is. So went out to Bentonville and met with him and the CEO and the rest of the crew and, uh, talked about what AR is going to be and why it's important.

And, um, and they said, okay, prove it, go build it. Um, so we built an 80 person, my wife and I built an 80 person AR team here in Seattle and, and built all sorts of incredibly cool, um, you know, associate facing and consumer facing demonstration applications using, uh, you know, HMD headsets. 

Alex: Wow. So 

Jordan: that was another time I had a boss.

Okay. 

Alex: Amazing. Um, is that going to like show up in Walmart at some point? Like 

Jordan: I would have thought so. Um, I mean, part of the reason we, we worked on it was to, to get them ahead of a technology, right? Cause they, they had, you know, kind of missed the web and created [00:48:00] Amazon and then they missed mobile and that kind of made Amazon stronger and we're like, Don't miss the next one.

And the CEO, Doug, I really had really just, uh, gained a huge amount of respect working with him. Um, he was like, yeah, we, we don't want to miss the next one. So we want to be on top of it. So they invested in this and we built a lot of core tech, but I think, um, we were kind of in what was a disruptive technology group, kind of an internal incubators, um, where you set up entrepreneurs to, to build little companies, to, to demonstrate this stuff.

And then I think once we had kind of. Proven what it is. They were like, okay, now we're going to roll that into into the mothership. Um, and so about a year and a half, two years after we left, they kind of shut down this as a separate group, rolled it into the, into the mothership. So, 

Alex: I 

Jordan: mean, they're doing a lot of AR on mobile.

I think that they are, you know, I hope they're going to stay very cognizant, aware of, of, um, of as glasses get developed. Um, but no, you know, our, our timeline [00:49:00] for kind of Consumer adoption of glasses definitely is slower than what we anticipated. I think part of that was COVID and, and other issues, but yeah.

But, but I still think we're, we're still several years out from, you know, a set of glasses you'd actually wear. 

Alex: Right. Do you, do you think of yourself as like, what do you think of yourself first, like entrepreneur or like creative guy? 

Jordan: When anyone asks me what I do for a living, I say, make shit up. 

Alex: So creative guy.

So creative guy. 

Jordan: Yeah. I only start companies cause I fucking have to make something. I don't really like, I'm not a, I'm actually not a very good, Business person. I'm not a good manager. I'm a good, I'm an okay leader, which is different than a manager. Um, but, uh, but it's only because there's something in my head I have to get out.

Alex: Okay. All right. I could, I can relate to some of that for sure. Um, was Walmart the last thing? 

Jordan: Uh, yeah, before doing, uh, Adventure Forge. 

Alex: How long ago was that? Cause I had a buddy who was, [00:50:00] is that, was that like studio? They had a name for it. Uh, 

Jordan: project. Yeah. 

Alex: Studio 8. It's 

Jordan: called, uh, Project Archer. Oh, studio.

Yeah. Yeah. The project director was within, uh, within a story. 

Alex: That's all right. Did you overlap with Tom Kang at all? 

Jordan: Yes. I, I was on the group that, uh, interviewed Tom to bring him in. Yeah. 

Alex: Yeah. That's right. Tom was a partner. Yeah. Yeah. I totally forgotten that there's Chicago guy, another Disney guy. 

Jordan: Yeah.

Is he still there? He probably got shut down when they shut down story. Yeah. So same time they shut down. That's right. Oh yeah. Yeah. 

Alex: He's running a new, um, console company that's making a gaming console for kids. Pretty cool. 

Jordan: Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah. He was a cool guy. 

Alex: Yeah, totally. Um, we went to college together.

Uh, Talking about like, you know, like how do you pick your business partners? Who's in for a couple hundred bucks? Like same, same deal right there. You were in a frat with him, right? [00:51:00] Who's bringing the beer? I'll bring the beer. Okay. You're in. Um, I realized like you have. Worked in all these different, I mean, I think there's probably a through line here with like, maybe it's technology, but not exactly, but, um, definitely like on the forefront, that's always seems like the case, like from, uh, from all of these things, from even pen and paper, like getting into it, like in Gary guy, Jack's kitchen, you know, to like, you know, uh, VWE games, AR.

ARGs, all of this stuff is, is, um, they're all different contexts. And I'm curious if you think maybe there's something about you that makes you either seek that kind of at like the new, or there's something that makes you, uh, fluent. [00:52:00] I mean, I know you mentioned earlier that you're dyslexic. Um, which I, I know is a common trait of, you know, like Spielberg and very like creative minded folks who can think differently.

Um, I'm just wondering if you think that there's something that you identify with in yourself that, that makes either seek those kinds of new things out or. Maybe makes you extra fluent in those kind of contexts that, or maybe it's just that you're in a place where you're unfamiliar. So there's no rules.

Like the thing you were saying, like, you know, entrepreneurs have to be dumb because if you were clued in, you wouldn't do it. If that's. I don't know. You know what I mean? 

Jordan: Yeah, I do. I, um, I mean, I do think, I do see, as you mentioned, there, there does seem to be some correlation, I think, between, uh, the way our brains wire for dyslexia and, and different types of creativity.

Um, and, you know, a very large percentage of people are dyslexic to different extents. I mean, much more than we thought back [00:53:00] in the day. Um, so I, you know, there may be certainly some of that. But, um, ADHD, totally a factor. It's like, you know, I need, I've always, uh, I always love moving on to, to new things. I, you know, I guess I, um, I read a huge amount.

Um, and I always love looking at new tech and thinking about. You know, how to tell stories with it, you know, I mean, that to me, the, uh, even though it's been a huge diversity of technologies and, and, and everything from, you know, theme parks to, uh, to D and D books, um, to me that the whole career comes down to kind of three legs.

It's, you know, it's storytelling and a socialization and, and then the technology is, is what technology do I need to drive a new way for people to tell stories and socialize. Right. Um, and, and so that's always what I'm looking for. It's like, is there. Because to me, there's nothing more [00:54:00] entertaining on a planet than other people.

And if you can inspire people to connect to each other and find, you know, through story and through game, um, you know, uh, I think that's, that's what makes it special. So I'm always looking for those kinds of things. 

Love that. Did you figure that out with AR? Like storytelling with AR? 

Jordan: Yeah, AR is a, it's, that's, that's magic, man.

To be able to, to, to bring people into an environment where you can really, you know, take all the things that we've been dreaming about or that we've been putting people into video games through avatars, but now actually saying, no, there is no avatar, it's you. Right. And you know, that's Spellman, you know, like when you put your hand out and the spell materializes around your hand and you throw the fireball and it goes flying across the room and explodes, just that's magical stuff, you know, and we made that, we made that work and you know, you can, it's just super cool.

Just right. You know, wait a 

Alex: second, wait a second. Did you make like a spell that you can like earn at Walmart and then. And then you throw the [00:55:00] spell at the PlayStation, you get 10 percent off because of your loyalty points. 

Jordan: If we had built that, we'd probably still be in business. 

Alex: I, this is a complete aside, but you know, I, like recently somebody was asking me a question about like, um, applying their game design knowledge and places outside of games.

I, I just realized that, um, I fly United Airlines. That's the airline that I've chosen to fly. Yes, because they're based in Chicago because I'm from Chicago. Um, and just watching that, like how they've developed their loyalty programs and their digital offerings as a customer, it's very painful because they've taken a lot of things away from me and put them into behind the paywall.

You know, but it's very reminiscent of game design of like, okay, you, you want to, uh, you want to reserve a seat? Oh, that that's an in app purchase. Right. You want a bag? That's an in app purchase. You want a meal? That's also an in app purchase. You know, it's like, it's like, wow, did they hire a fricking [00:56:00] like game designer to come up with all this?

Oh, 

Jordan: it's true. And you remember, I mean, the buzzword of what was it a decade ago, gamification, 

right? Everything. And 

Jordan: yeah, brush your 

teeth. Yeah. Get some health 

Alex: insurance credits. Um, All right. Well, so I, I love bees is I think probably maybe that for me, the best example of you stepping into the unknown and coming up with something like, how did you even, it was awesome.

Oh, well, 

Jordan: thank 

Alex: you guys. And, and the, uh, what was the name of the beast? The beast, the beast, the first one with, uh, But just, I mean, cause that is totally like the, that imagine, you know, what do you call it? The screen with infinite resolution, your imagination. That is totally the kind of thing that people would have in their imagination, but getting from.

Imagination to something that really [00:57:00] exists and is cool and has impact. It's like, I couldn't even, like, how did, how did that go from being 

Jordan: okay. Well, let's, uh, when I was a kid at summer camps, same summer camp, right. Uh, um, one of the, the guy ran the camp, uh, named Steve Arnold, um, who went on to, uh, to great stuff, but he was, he was, uh, studying, uh, Uh, paranormal psychology at the time, actually, man, I was getting his PhD in paranormal psychology.

Yeah. Like ghosts and magic and spells, and he was studying all this esoteric stuff and it was incredibly. And so I was, you know, I knew him as a kid and then as I came back as a counselor and worked with him all the time and we got to know each other and he, and he tuned me into this whole thing that was called the Beatles mystery.

At the time, right? The whole, this whole, um, mythology that, that, uh, John Lennon had woven these clues all through the music [00:58:00] and publicity and yeah. And all the album covers and everything, you know, giant puzzle to be had there. And so that, that really, uh, stuck with me, you know? Um, and, uh, yeah. And then I was thinking about, um, how each form of media that, you know, trans, uh, form of media that we had created eventually gave birth to a new form of storytelling.

Um, you know, and, uh, but traditionally when, when that media first comes out, it's used to just transmit the previous forms of storytelling. So for instance, like when radio was invented. You know, they would put a radio in front of a stage show. They'd put a radio in front of an orchestra, right? Um, uh, there, there wasn't content being created specifically for the media of radio, you know?

Um, and it took, you know, in this case it was Orson Welles who was like, wait a minute, this is totally different, right? When, when a person comes to the theater, they're coming into our house. [00:59:00] In radio, we're going into their house. So how do we tell a story that's set in their house? You know, which is where, you know, world of the, uh, war of the worlds and everything else came from, which was, which was the direct inspiration for what we did.

I love bees was, was where the world's right. Cause you guys were doing the invasion, you know? Um, anyway, so I was just really thinking about that and I was thinking, well, what, what is the, you know, what's the new form of storytelling or a form of storytelling that could have, could be done on the web so much better.

And what I came up with was it's a search oriented medium, right? You're, you're searching through. Lots of shit to find the information that you want. So what if that was the storytelling mechanism? The mechanism was search oriented, discovery oriented, and communication oriented. So I would find something and then share it, right?

And this was the infancy of being able to share information, right? We, you know, we didn't have social media at the time, but, but there were, you know, forums and, and channels and, you know, uh, ways [01:00:00] of, of kind of community for me, even if it was much more, uh, rudimentary. Um, so I started to think, okay, well, what if we.

Tell stories like that, but we wrote a story. We created all the evidence as if the story had taken place. Hide the evidence around the digital and physical world. Throw the story out. Let people find the bits and pieces of it. And like an archaeologist, or like a crime scene investigator, Reassemble the story from the evidence.

And when they do so, it will not be the story that we wrote. It'll be similar to the story we wrote, but it's going to be, it's going to be determined by their collective imaginations. 

Alex: It'll be their, their version of the story. That's how I would browse it. Actually, I'd 

go to pages upload all the audio files and put them in an order that they thought they would.

And I would just, yeah, I would just listen to them. And 

Alex: we, we did, and we didn't, we didn't quite. I think maybe set enough [01:01:00] context for anybody who, who didn't experience it, but this was, I think the first alternate reality. The 

Jordan: first, the first one was, uh, was called the beast and it was for Steven Spielberg's film AI.

Uh, and then the second was, uh, for, uh, Halo two. Yeah. Did you do one for Nine 

Inch Nails as well? 

Jordan: We did. We did Nine Inch Nails and we also did, uh, Uh, why so serious, uh, for, uh, the Batman movies and, um, and you know, a bunch of other, bunch of other ones, but yeah, those are, those are the kind of high water marks.

So yeah, it was, it was, it was absolutely fascinating experience. Um, and, uh, all right. The, uh, uh, the story of how the first one came about, right. Um, So we were at Microsoft and it was E3 and, um, and Ed and Robbie said, uh, we're going to go meet with Steven Spielberg and we want you to come along. Um, and I was like, absolutely.

You know, you're not busy. Yeah. Check my calendar. Um, [01:02:00] uh, and, uh, and so we went and met with him and it was, uh, it was him and Kathleen Kennedy and Katzenberg and, um, uh, the whole crew. And, um, and they pitched, uh, Uh, the, the movie, uh, AI, uh, to us with incredible art and, you know, models and everything. And I was just like, you know, um, and, uh, uh, halfway through, I kind of blurred it out.

Oh, wait a minute. It's, it's, um, Pinocchio. And he was like, It is like, wow. Anyway. So we finish in and, um, I was like, I can't wait to go tell my kids I met you. And, and he was a big MechWarrior fan. So he was like, I can't wait to tell my kids I met you. I was like, yeah, okay, no, I get to tell my kids. Um, and on the way back, they said, you know, so what do you think?

Should we. Should we do this? I was like, well, thank you for the best meeting of my life. But, uh, I don't think so. I mean, I, I think this movie could be incredible, but not really for the demo of 1835 male, which we're trying [01:03:00] to hit for launch. So, you know, probably not. And they were like, oh, okay. And then Robbie came back in a month or two later and said, okay, so, uh, we did the deal.

Um, you, you have to make five video games. Of course. I was like, I was like, wait, wait. Five? Five video games? So, uh, so we set about trying to figure out how to make five video games out of an incredibly emotional story about a son desperate for a mother's love, um, you know, for an 1835 male audience. Um, uh, and, uh, and we came up with what that was pretty good plan, you know, as best as we could within the context and, uh, and started to make those games.

And we, we decided that the The, the kind of through line of the movie was we could do one game, kind of an RBG of, of, of the boy and his journey through that really desperate world. And then the other four, um, we wanted to set against the, the, the struggle that the universe was going through, right? That, that the, the world that he had set up was going through, which was.[01:04:00] 

You know, I, I kind of backed it out to look at it as it's, it was a fight for rights, right? It's a fight for recognition. Um, and in this case, it's a non biological life form trying to, you know, have equal rights with the humanity because they were, you know, uh, and, and, and the rights for recognition and, and, um, and, um, you know, to be human.

Um, By those who have decided that you're not human is unfortunately something that goes all through history, right? As humanity has constantly and conveniently determined that some, some people who don't look like us don't get to have the rights we have. Um, and, uh, and those kind of The resolution to those are rarely, um, peaceful.

Alex: Yeah, 

Jordan: they're, they're filled with strife. So we, we could set the rest of the games against that struggle, you know? Um, and so then we needed to tell kind of the story of that world, um, to bring that world from the background of the son desperate for mother's love to [01:05:00] the foreground. Uh, and so that's where I pitched the idea of being, telling that story through this kind of.

discoverable mechanism, uh, rather than trying to, you know, put it out as a book or putting it out as a, uh, whatever. But if we kind of hid the clues of this story and then people discovered it, I thought it would have a lot more impact than if we just tried to. Tell people, 

you know, like audio logs, like that concept.

Jordan: Yeah. So this one was not, uh, we, we, the audio logs, we, the, we use that later for, uh, for all the bees, because they're the inspiration was very much kind of like war, the world's radio. And so we really, we really leaned into that one. This one was, was combination of, of every type of asset you can imagine hidden across the digital and physical world.

Um, so, uh, uh, so yeah, that was basically the idea. We wrote this, we basically. As, as Steven said, you know, we wrote basically the prequel to the movie and, um, and we also explained how it turned into, the planet turned into an ice [01:06:00] ball. Um, and, uh, and then we wanted to tell it through this mechanism. I went to That's not a 

Alex: spoiler, is it?

Is that a spoiler? For the movie? What, the planet's an ice ball? 

Jordan: No, no, not if you, not if you stayed awake through the whole thing, no. 

Alex: I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I haven't seen that movie in a long time. And I kind of want to, I kind of want to go back and see it now. A lot of those AI movies 

are weird now.

Yeah. They, they really match. Does it 

Jordan: hold up? You think? You know, I haven't watched it in probably 10 years, but as of 10 years ago, it's still packed a punch. I mean, um, because, you know, because Steven, I mean, it was, well, it was kind of Richard. Well, it was kind of interesting. And it was to me watching him make the movie.

Not that I know shit about movies, but, but it started as a very, like, Spielberg warm movie, and, and I think, from my uninformed perception, it became more and more an homage, um, uh, to, uh, to the director that he had inherited the project from. We're at Kubrick, which is not 

Alex: like, like, not [01:07:00] a warm, happy, friendly, exactly.

Jordan: And so I think, I think that's what was kind of interesting in the tonal nature of the movies. It was caught between the poles of these direct, okay. You know? Um, anyway, so I went, uh, so I had that, that, that the premise and, and gathered Ilan Lee and, and a bunch of my other team together and we started, you know, kind of brainstorming.

It was, and I went Robbie and said, okay, so This is how I want to tell the story. And he said, so let me get it right. You want to spend a lot of money, create a lot of assets, hide them until then no one, until no one, it exists. And I said, yes. And he said, 

Alex: you got it. 

Jordan: Yeah. He says, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

It's like, that's not marketing. That's just, that's just. Taking a pile of money and burning it. And I was like, okay, well, and he said, no, we're not going to. And so then I was in LA and I was meeting with Spielberg and Kennedy. And I said, so here's how we're thinking of telling the story. And I pitched the [01:08:00] whole thing to them and their storytellers.

So they were like, excited about a new way to tell a story. And they were like, that's awesome. We should, we're excited to do that. And I said, well, well, that's great. So, but we were thinking, since it kind of promotes the movie and the game that Warner brothers and Microsoft could share the cost, like absolutely.

And I said, well, and. And I have this kind of budgetary issue at Microsoft at the moment. I can't actually get the Microsoft money yet. So I thought maybe Warner Brothers pays for the first half of the campaign and Microsoft would pay for the second half. Because my boss had just told me he wasn't going to give me any money.

Did that work? So it must have. She said, no problem. Um, and uh, and then in my favorite phone call of all time, she calls the head of marketing. This was, uh, Kathleen Kennedy calls out of marketing and says, so I'm going to send this guy Jordan over. You're going to give him a check for a lot of money, multiple millions of dollars.

You're not allowed to ask what it's for. And from now on, anytime you come up with anything for the movie, any marketing for the movie, you have to send it to him. He's going to make changes to it and send it back and [01:09:00] you run what he gives you. 

Alex: And then she's like, what did I get myself into? She just, she just hangs 

Jordan: up the phone and I'm like.

Oh my God, who could have made, no one can make that phone call. I said, it must be good to be king. And she's like, Oh yeah, 

Alex: yeah, it really is. I was 

Jordan: like, I mean, literally she's probably one of two or three people on the planet could make a call like that. But, uh, 

Alex: so yeah, so 

Jordan: we went and did it. And, um, uh, and it got a lot of attention, a lot of, you know, millions of people involved and, and, um, you know, big articles all over the world about like, you know, who's doing this and what is it come from and how is it blah, blah, blah.

And Robbie brings the, you know, I think it was Wall Street Journal, New York Times, and he puts it on my desk and he goes, I thought I said we weren't doing this. I was like, I misunderstood. I thought you said you just didn't have the money at the time, but, but do you now? And he's like, yes, asshole, we do now.

Alex: I love that. 

Jordan: So that was the first one. And then, um, and that was why I was at Microsoft. And then I had left Microsoft. Um, and, uh, [01:10:00] uh, and then Halo 2 was coming up. Um, and, uh, um, Oh God, I'm going to forget his name. And I know it's such a guy was heading at marketing on Halo 2. But, uh, so he called me up and he said, Hey, uh, we would love you to, you know, get the team back together and do.

Uh, an ARG for, for launch of Halo 2. And so I literally did put the team back together. We formed 42 entertainment as a company to do those kinds of things. And, uh, and, you know, Ayla Beasle was the first one. So it was, you know, Elon and, and Sean Stewart, myself and, uh, Joe DiNasio. I didn't 

Alex: realize Elon was part of it.

Like, and he went on to do like exploding kittens, right? 

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. So Ilan is kind of the, you know, my, uh, fourth son and, and, uh, yeah, he and Shane small, who was also a member of our team at WizKids, uh, they were working together at, uh, uh, Microsoft years later and Microsoft LA, uh, and, and Sean, Shane had designed, uh, the, uh, the game, uh, which then became Exploding Kittens.

Yeah. 

Alex: All right. We really did keep you, [01:11:00] um, into, into overtime, but, um, Thank you, Jordan, for hanging out with us. 

Jordan: Yeah. My pleasure, man. If you ever want to, you know, more boring stories, just give me a call. I'm 

Alex: right on. All right. We'll see you around. See you, Jordan. Did you know all of that stuff? Some of it.

Do you know all that stuff that he had done? I mean, I know you're a fan of whiz kids. Um, I. I had gone into a Battletech Center in person and played. It sounded like you did too. 

Yes. Yes. And I even looked up the pictures. Dude, the, the, but the, even the, uh, the, the RPG stuff, the paper, pen and paper stuff.

Man, I love those books. I love them. I just buy them too. And I just like, have them. Ch Chaos, is that? Chaos Dragon. Ha ha ha ha ha ha! I should have told that story for this episode. But man, that he did all that stuff, that's so cool. I wonder if he still, we should have asked him if he still has all his original pen and paper books.

If he ever goes back and reads them or plays. I'm sure he [01:12:00] does. But that Battletech 

Alex: thing is Harvey was talking about playing. This is this was actually interesting. I was listening to the Harvey episode and he was talking about how when he was hanging out with the origin folks before they hired him, that they would play role playing games.

One of the games he referenced was Shadow 

Shadow Run. Yeah, I remember when I first experienced Shadow Run. It blows your mind. You're like, what is this? I don't get 

Alex: this. So I bet Harvey's listening to this episode because Jordan is on. 

Hey, Harvey. The characters are cool though. Like did you, when he said that he was inspired by his, his dad's, um, was he like a archeologist?

What did he say he was? No, but he was saying that all those books were around from Mesoamerica. So he was inspired. 

Alex: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a 

weird, like, you know, usually you, you go into the store, it's like elves and it's like space Marines and. You know, people hacking computers with, with, with chips from their head.[01:13:00] 

And then, you know, and then it's like shadow run. It's like, so different. It's original. Really cool. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Hey, do y'all ever do role playing at home? Any like RPG games? Dice, 

Alex: uh, like paper. Um, we did, you know, I ran a campaign, uh, a, just a pathfinder, you know, Oh, Pathfinder. 

How are you liking that?

Who'd you do it with? With the girls. The girls were enjoying it. 

Alex: Yeah. Um, and that was a ton of fun. When did you, what book did you use? Like the, um, you know, the Pathfinder is a, it's its own book, you know, it's like the starter kit or whatever, you know, real, 

real intro. Um, yeah, no, all the D and D, it was a big deal with the art because all the artists from the D and D were going to Pathfinder cause it's all the old D and D people and like.

It was like a little competition. I remember that. So they had like better artists or something. I don't know if that's true, but that's what the comic book store guy told me. [01:14:00] 

Alex: Okay. I mean, I remember when, I don't, I doubt Dragon Magazine is still in print, is it? I should know this. I don't know. But we used to, there was like so much inspiring art, um, on the cover and in that magazine.

Yeah, I used to get it at the bookmobile. 

Alex: Alright, well, uh, thank you everybody for hanging out with us this week. I hope you enjoyed our conversation with Jordan. Uh, we sure did. I did, yeah. We 

shall see you next time. See you next time, everybody. Thank you for listening to the 4th Curtain Podcast. The 4th Curtain is a production of 4th Curtain Media with community management by Doug Zartman.

Lovingly edited and mastered by Brian Hensley at Noise Floor Sound Solutions in Chicago. To get a peek at upcoming episodes or to send in questions to the show, visit our site at the4thcurtain. com. And be sure to follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks again for listening.