[00:01] Katie: Welcome to the Focus B show, where Katie Stoddart, high performance coach, interviews experts around the world in performance and mindfulness. Now, here's your host. Katie.
[00:32] Katie: Welcome to a brand new episode of the Focus B show. I am thrilled today to be here with Amna Ajmal, one of the top 25 people in financial technology and more precisely, one of the top 100 women in fintech across the globe.
[00:49] Amnah: Hello, Amna.
[00:51] Katie: Welcome to the show. It is a real pleasure to have you here today.
[00:55] Amnah: Kitty, thank you so much for having me.
[00:58] Katie: You have lived and worked across ten different countries, at least, if I am correct. And I'm curious to know what happened. What was your transformation like? What was the journey like living and working in all these different countries?
[01:14] Amnah: So I think the journey begins much more earlier than when I started my career. So I always had a dream of living an international life, building my own career, experiencing the world, living in different cultures. Unfortunately, I was not born with the birthright to work. None of the women in my family have ever worked. I was the first one. Most women in my family have never done even a master's degree, and I went on to do two masters. So I think it was a dream that I had since the age of 18 when I told my mom the first time that I want to have an international career, I want to live in different countries and work. And I know my mom said to me, well, that's like stupid because you're going to get married, so maybe you would travel to all these countries with your husband for holidays. And I told her, no, it's me by myself living in those countries, and I'm the one who's working and earning. And she's like, but that has never happened in this family and probably would never happen. So I think because I burnt a lot of bridges in that journey to design the life that I wanted to have for myself, my stakes were very high and I think that was probably the underlying drive and motivation for a lot of people. Changing their country or a career means a lot of risk for me, the risk that I had already taken by burning all bridges with my family for deciding to have an international career was so high that other risks were just immaterial in front of it, right? Living in countries where I didn't speak the language. I mean, I lived in Cairo before the revolution. I had asthma there and I was at times on a wheelchair going to work. It was like just changing countries, changing apartments and houses and all of that by myself. But it just never occurred that it's a risk or it's a difficult thing because the drive to get to where I wanted to be was very high.
[03:20] Katie: And where did you want to be? What was sort of your ultimate goal? Vision for yourself.
[03:27] Amnah: So the vision that I always tell people, I never have a five year plan for my life, I never did. But even when I was 18, I had a ten to 15 year plan where I wanted to be. So at that time, too, I wanted to see myself like, I was financially independent. I was giving back to what I got, meaning I wanted to see myself in a senior leadership role where I could have an impact in people's lives, I could make a difference. And I think leadership is a very privileged position because you're able to impact 12 hours of someone's day. People spend more time at work than they do with their families. So I think that kind of an impact that I wanted to have. I almost visualized myself not necessarily working in the corporate culture, but in senior leadership roles and having that impact on people and living across different continents. That's the life that I definitely did imagine for myself. My ten to 15 year plan was that.
[04:24] Katie: And now that you've lived across all these different countries and you've achieved what used to be your life vision, how does it make you feel?
[04:34] Amnah: I have to be honest, that it was a journey. It took me time to reconcile it with myself. I was living in Poland and I was invited to a school where they had read a book about Afghanistan, though I'm not from Afghanistan, but somehow they thought that I am from Afghanistan and I was living in Poland, where most people are Polish. So the school teacher invited me at that school to talk about my personal journey. And I'm like, These are like a bunch of ten year old this was 2008. And I'm like, how difficult it's going to be to talk to them. And I just told them about a little bit of Mark By journey, very high level. And when I finished, the teacher told me, we'd have few questions, and everybody took out this long sheet of paper which had all the questions written on it. I was like, oh, my God, that's scary. This kid's actually prepared for me. And then they started asking question about my dad, my mom, and are they really proud of me? And that kind of really it is a life changing experience for me because I really had to open up and tell my true story that, no, my parents are very unhappy with the choices that I made. And no, I was really told that I can't do that. I can't dream the life that I want to live. I can't do that. I'm not allowed to. And there were repercussions of it. So I eventually had to open up. But it's easy to open up in front of ten year old kids who never judge you. Like, there's absolutely no agenda behind it. But I remember I had to go back to work and I actually did not go back to work, I went home and I really cried a lot. And that's the moment that it occurred to me that, why am I hiding this story? It came at a cost to me. There was a price that I paid and I should accept it and embrace it. And that's really a part of who I am. So I think from there onwards, I started sharing my story and I was like, this is part of who I am. It's never going to go away. I can't put on another face and think and assume that this part of me doesn't exist. It shows in my leadership style, it shows that when I am caring from people, I'm really caring from the part of my heart, because that's how I was raised. I really don't believe when you get leadership roles, you're transforming to a leader all of a sudden who you are as a person, you carry that brand. And I know what it is like to sacrifice your family or your friends for something that you want to achieve. So, yeah, I think it took me a while. It didn't come like naturally that day one, I was confident, articulating my story, inspiring other people. No, for a large part of my career, I was, for the first eight years, I would say, just focused on working crazy hours, trying to learn as much as I can and really not telling people. People did not know who I was, other than the fact that, oh, she works crazy hours and yeah, she's smart, that's pretty much about it. They didn't know who I was as a person. So, yeah, that was the journey. Yes.
[07:43] Katie: That sounds like like many journeys. It was a lot of ups and downs. But it's interesting that it was actually when you were speaking to these children, there were a very open and caring audience that you were able to open up about these wounds and how do you process them now? How do you manage this sort of emotional turmoil?
[08:04] Amnah: I would say it's no longer turmoil. So if I have to create a list of things that I wanted to do at that time, my mom was a mom at the age of 16. I had a 32 year old grandma and I got married at the age of 36. So you can imagine that I've literally moved almost 180 degree opposite to where my family was. So it's not a turmoil. It's more like I think I have achieved that balance. I always say that in your career, in your personal life, there is usually in life, a give and take. I could have complained about it and there are times early on when my younger days, I have said, that why God gave me such a difficult life. But now I look back and I'm like, it made me the leader I am. It made me the person I am. I have very high level of perseverance. I am super optimistic about most ugly situations in life. I do believe something good always comes out from something bad. So I don't think so I would have been this person if I had not gone through that journey. Right. So I think now I look back at it with a lot of positivity and I know one of the things that I had in my checklist was that I would get married when I find love. I was a firm believer of that and that's exactly what I did. And I have three kids now. My daughter is three and a half year old and my twin boys are one and a half year old. So I think looking at them, I have been able to give my daughter a different future. The choices that I did not have, she would have them, she would not have to fight for it. That to me is like a great relief. Or I just feel I take a lot of pride in it that I am able to at least I know that these are the lives I have impacted. The three of them would have all the choices that they need to have as individuals. Yes.
[09:59] Katie: That's beautiful. So you're sort of reproducing a system that you believe in that corresponds to your values and your vision and so you can pass it on to them. I'd like to come back to the leadership aspect you mentioned. So you said this perseverance and positivity has made you a greater leader. Can you tell us a few of your main sort of perspective and views on your leadership style?
[10:24] Amnah: So, first of all, I believe if someone asks me that I changed these ten countries, what did success look like? You can think that, yes, you are transforming business. Most of my, I mean I was eight years with one employer and then three years and then another seven year with I've not really changed a lot of jobs, but every two year my employer would ask me to take on a bigger, different role. Right. And most of the roles were transforming business. But I realized very quickly while changing countries, that the business strategies that you put in place can be changed by a successor. The company can change the direction of the business. So they are not that long lasting as you believe they are. And imagine, I was 28 year old and I was running Citibank's, largest PNL in Europe. So it was a very big job. It came on very early to me in my career, thanks to the leaders who took the risk of me. So it's kind of a rush and a high. You're delivering this growth. Your bank is nominated the most innovative bank. You're receiving all these awards. It's like wow, the business is doing so great, but you realize that that's not everlasting the financial cris came. A lot of that growth was wiped out. But what was everlasting was the impact that I had on people. I realized that people who I had given a chance from a completely different industry to get into banking, who I had promoted, who I had coached and mentored, who are part of my team, they went on to become such big senior leaders, not only within the company, but outside the company. And my paths would cross with them. We would have a dinner or a lunch in some different part of the world and they would be like I remember in the interview you asked me this question. I was so surprised. And that impact that I could have had on people was incredible. That was the most satisfying thing until date. It is as a leader, the impact that I can have. And I have the ability to do so because of the privileged position that I am in. So for me that's super important. Also, when you join senior roles at different markets, there are people in the market who are smarter than you. They know it better than you, and they are local. They know the market, they know the regulations. They're working there for years and all of a sudden you land up over there and you're their boss. So the only way you can actually it's not that through your position, you can command respect, right? You have to listen, you have to learn. You have to surround yourself with people who are smarter than you, from whom you can learn, provide them the vision, the clarity, and paint a bigger, better vision and future for them, and then guide them there. That's when people respect for you. I remember when I landed in Poland, of course I didn't speak Polish and the city phone head was giving me the tour of the contact center and someone said to him something in Polish, and he laughed and he replied, and I could guess from their conversation that they were talking about me. So I asked him, what did she say to you and why you were laughing? And he's like, oh, she thought you're an intern. And I told her, no, you're the new cat's business head. And she's like, oh wow, she's young. And I was like, bit upset about it. And he's like, Why are you upset? I'm like, no, nothing. And then I came home and I'm like I was so upset. I'm like, why are people thinking like that? So what if I'm young and I got this job, but I reconciled with myself very quickly. And I was like, so I have to prove myself. Actually, my directs were in their forty s and I was in my 20s. So of course everybody is thinking like, and I look different, I speak different. So there's a lot of question marks on me, regardless of my track record, which was great in the same company. So the humility with which you have to conduct yourself as a leader, you can never think that your position gives you the right to ask people. I always say as a leader, I have to first give before I can expect people to give something to me. It's me who has to take the first step. So that humility, that ability to listen to people is extremely important. And then I think people expect. I remember when I moved to Asia, the bank told me since I've always worked in Europe, because majority of my career was in Europe, they need to make me go through a cultural training to understand the Asian culture. I was in Singapore and I went through this training and two years later the HR head was chatting with me and he said, remember this training that we did for you? We've changed it now because there are a lot of people from Europe coming in. I said, do you want my honest feedback? He's like, yeah. I said, I learned absolutely nothing from that training. He's like, why? I said, People are exactly the same regardless of any part of the world that you mentioned to me. They expect the exact same basic things from their leader. They want you to be there when they are in trouble. They want you to be there to support them, to remove the showstoppers from their way. I can't just tell people, this is the vision. I need you to get there. I have to make sure I remove the showstoppers in their path. I have to make sure I'm there when they make a mistake. I have to walk my talk. I can't make promises that I can't keep. I have to be authentic. So I said, you cannot tell me that. My Polish team and my team in London and my team in Hungary did not expect this. But people in Singapore and Malaysia expect this, right? So I said the things that I probably learned are more the other nuances around culture, which are completely unique for me. Like in Malaysia, I had a 90% Malaysian local team. And when my marketing had told me that he's going to buy a death condo, it was very strange for me. I had to ask, what do you mean by you're buying a death condo? And I realized people, they could be in their 20s, but they plan when they die, where they would be buried, and that's why they buy that space. Those kind of aspects are culturally enriching because you don't really know about them, right? But as a leader, I did not gain much from that cross cultural training because people just expect exactly the same thing from their leaders, no matter where they are in the world. So I believe those things are very important for me. I've learned a lot from my teams. I've always surrounded myself with people who are smarter than me. I've always admitted that I do not have all the answers. But together with them, I can get to the right answers. And people appreciate that. Yes.
[16:52] Katie: It sounds to me like a lot of what you're saying is having both that transparency and also the support. So being there for them, being able to be there when they make a mistake, that's a lot of support. How do you manage this purely from an effectivity point of view? All the different people, all the different demands and doing your work at the same time, how do you manage this?
[17:17] Amnah: I truly believe after having conducted so many business transformations across the world that if you put people first and you put business second, automatically, business would be first. So in most of the countries where I went and I took the job without any agenda, I conduct one on ones in just getting to know people and at times people I would come prepared with notes. I'm like, no, I just want to get to know you. I usually do it. I mean, I have managed teams as large as 3000 so I can't do that. But I would at least want to cover my direct and the key people in their team. If there's a smaller team, I would do it all the way around and that's important. People are kind of surprised, okay, you don't want to discuss business? No, I just wanted to get to know you. So I have always put people first and business second and ultimately, eventually that has always made business go first. I believe in those kind of steps and then it comes around. I also feel that when we go to work and I didn't have kids early on and now I feel more so I spend more time at work than with my kids. I am barely able to give them an hour a day as a working parent. And if I'm giving that much of energy and my time at work, which I'm not able to have with my kids, I really need to be driven and motivated and happy and feel I'm achieving something out of it. I can't be miserable going to work, watch my back and see. So having that kind of equation with your team when you are driving them that they have the clarity of vision, they know if there's a showstopper you're going to be there for them. They know actually that I have always made people believe they can achieve much more than what people believed in themselves. And that's the different kind of a motivation and sense of achievement. Like one of my boss told me that people would jump off a cliff for me because they would believe me, they would just follow. And I think that really requires you to build that kind of trust and motivation in your team and it's absolutely, absolutely critical that you put people as people first.
[19:33] Katie: How do you foster this trust? Because trust is such a fundamental pillar and aspect of leadership. How do you foster it?
[19:43] Amnah: I believe in the principle of giving in first, right? Listening. And it's very hard when you become a leader to disconnect from who you are as a person. At least I can't do that, right? I remember I was seven year old, and it was very hot. It was like 48 degrees, and our family had a lot of household help. And we had a driver who did not open the car door. And I was standing outside maybe like a minute or a fewer seconds in heat, and I rudely called him to open the door because it's so hot. And my mom made me stand in that heat for 45 minutes or an hour. I was in tears because she's like, you cannot be disrespectful. So that lesson is just so till date. It's so visible in my memory. So as a leader, then I don't have like, I am as respectful as I was when my mom told me at a seven year old when she would tell me that, don't make a promise to your sister that we can't fulfill. So I just think those little things that are instilled in you values as a child, then you become an adult and a person. You carry those in your leadership brand, and people can see that authenticity at times. If I would give people feedback that your team is not connecting with you and you need to probably have a good connection. I remember one of the people in my team, he took them out for a lunch and then for bowling. And people still don't trust him. And he's like, Why? They don't trust me? And I'm like, taking out them for a lunch once a month or a bowling is not going to help you establish the trust. It's about how you walk the talk. It's about when they come to you with smaller problems. They can add value in their life, how you're treating them as a person. Do you know what's going on in their homes? Do you know if somebody comes in the morning and they're upset? Do you ask them why are they upset? What's going around? Is the kid okay? Is the pet okay? Is the spouse okay? I said, that's what helps you build connection with people. That's how you establish trust. Not by taking the team out once a month for lunch or a bowling and say, Why aren't they connecting with me? I usually ask my team's feedback on me before I give feedback to them. And I remember, he's my peer now. He got promoted, so I'm very happy for him. But one of my direct reports, he said to me, you really want to hear the honest feedback? It's like seven years back. I went, yeah. And he's like, you need to get a life. How is it possible? You reply at 02:00 A.m., and then you also reply at 07:00 A.m.. And he's like, this is, like, impossible to keep up with you. And it was a good wake up call for me because I never thought that people feel that, oh my God, I don't have a life. Why do I reply at 02:00 A.m.? And I'm like, yeah, I need to stop writing emails at night. That small thing, first of all, made us friends for life. He's no longer part of my team, but also the fact that he could say this to me, like I'm his boss, but he could say this to me and he knew that I'm talking and I'm asking from a genuine place in my heart to improve. Right? And he told me that many people just feel I'm like a robot because I'm just on all the time, I cannot disconnect. Right? And he's like, it's important to disconnect because then your team can disconnect. So I guess all these things they attribute to you establishing trust.
[23:33] Katie: Yes. That honest feedback is so important for you also to improve. But it's also the proof that that trust is there because the typical sort of scenario of people who are afraid of their boss or who don't trust them is they hide everything from them. So the fact that he's able to give you that honest feedback is a great proof.
[23:54] Amnah: Yeah.
[23:55] Katie: And what has helped you since then to disconnect?
[24:00] Amnah: Well, first of all, I did realize that I started doing it that first of all, I do sleep 4 hours a night now I have kids. I wished I had slept more when I did not have kids. Anybody who tells me they can't sleep at night, I'm like, no wonder you're going to have kids. I'm like, okay, that day onward, you're not going to sleep. Catch up on as much sleep as you can. I think that's part of a problem. If you sleep less, probably have just more hours available. But no, I did very practical pragmatic step and I am a very result oriented person. If I have to think that, I have to get there. I think one of the things I started doing was early on when I got this feedback was to write it, but save it and draft. And that strategy also backfired because in the morning at eight, I would just shoot, send and maybe if I have written five emails to one person, he or she will get it together. Right? So that was the first step. Write but don't send. Save it in your draft so nobody knows about it. Second thing was read your messages over the weekend, but don't reply. There's no need to reply unless and until there's something absolutely urgent. No need to reply. So it was step by step. Save it in your draft, send it on the next day morning, start disconnecting on weekend. I used to take very short holidays in which you still end up working for the first time. I took a three week holiday because somebody from my team came and told me how great it was to take a three week holiday because you could just absolutely disconnect. First week people are still calling you and you're still connected. Second week, people kind of come to terms with that. You're on a holiday and middle of second week is your true break and then you enjoy really that last week in full. So I tried doing that and I think that was an absolutely amazing experience. And then I had kids and that also changed a lot in me. I do realize during the week I'm not able to give that much time with them. So my holidays are really time with them. My weekends are really dedicated to them. Yeah, I'm very particular about their bath time, not to ever miss that, not to schedule any calls around that time. I think they also help to bring a lot of balance back. Amazing.
[26:19] Katie: So it's about finding that balance and still being able to disconnect like during holidays. And what would be some of a key tip you would give to someone, let's say, who's a rising leader, maybe starting off in a leadership role and they want to embrace some of what you're saying in terms of trust, in terms of building that connection. What would be a few tips you would give them to improve their so.
[26:41] Amnah: First, I would say that the three things that I believe are very important are be humble, admit it, that you don't know all, there's nothing wrong in it. In fact, I was talking at Cambridge University and I was telling the students that it was not probably the best thing to say to them that wherever you have studied is not going to be relevant five years down the road, right? So yes, you are working with a degree from one of the best institutes in the world, but it just may not be relevant, right? So you have to be humble regardless. I mean, I did not know what an API is. I read computer science engineering degree in Pascal and Cobalt, those black and green screens which are no longer valid. Even so, I have to be humble enough to learn. The second thing, I would say courage. Have the courage to decide. Have the courage to move on if something is making you unhappy. Have the courage to give people honest feedback. Have the courage to embrace that honest feedback. Have the courage to take thoughtful risk. Courage is a very important aspect of leadership. Many people that I mentor would tell me that they're frustrated in the job because their boss is just not deciding. Why? Because the decision comes with a certain amount of risk, right? And that's not helping them achieve what they want to achieve. So I truly believe courage is a very important aspect. So humility, courage and then I would say perseverance and optimism, everybody, even in a personal life, if you're down, you would want to call a person who would say, oh come on, Katie, it's. Know, the sun is shining. Look, it's a wonderful day. You would never call a person who would say, yeah, Katie, it is terrible. It's the worst thing that happened to you. You just won't do that. Right? So why our work life and our leaders would be any know, at times people come to me and I was like, this is the worst thing that could happen. We're going to lose this business opportunity. I'm like, okay, did you already lose it? They're like, yeah, it's done. I'm like, something good is going to come out of it. You watch. You're like, no, what are you talking about? So I think that perseverance and optimism is extremely important part of leadership. I mean, you can wrap it around a good sense of humor or just always telling people that, don't worry, we're going to come out of this situation. We got to get it done. That kind of attitude is a very important aspect of leadership, I believe.
[29:04] Katie: I love this and this is such a wonderful sort of gold nugget to finish the episode. I can't believe that half an hour has gone by. I love this. Humility, courage, perseverance and optimism. I'm going to write them on my board next to me. Thank you so much, amna for being on the podcast. Thank you for sharing all of your wisdom. Yeah, thank you so much.
[29:25] Amnah: Thank you so much for the opportunity. It was lovely talking to you.
[29:30] Katie: Thank you for listening to the Focus B show. We would love to hear your feedback back. Let us know in a review how this episode inspired you. Keep buzing.