[00:01] Katie: Welcome to The Focus B Show, where Katie Stoddart high performance coach interviews experts around the world in performance and mindfulness. Now here's your host. Katie.
[00:32] Katie: Welcome to a brand new episode of the Focus B show. I am thrilled to be here today with Chrissy Zavika. Chrissy originally began her career in sports working with the Detroit Lions in 2005. Since then, she realized that she was both passionate and extremely good at LinkedIn and now offers LinkedIn strategies through presentations and workshops and tailored content creation. Chrissy is the president and CEO of E Link Consultants. Hi, Chrissy, welcome to the show.
[01:11] Chrissie: Hi, thanks for having me.
[01:13] Katie: Real pleasure to have you here. Looking at your LinkedIn profile, I see that you mentioned that your zone of genius is basically working with LinkedIn marketing. Now, a few weeks ago, I did another interview with Danielle on Zone of Genius, something I'm really passionate about. I'm really curious, how did you realize that LinkedIn marketing was your zone of genius?
[01:35] Chrissie: So to look back at my career and where it started, I actually wanted to go into sports when I was in high school. So I love sports, wanted to work in pro sports. I was a big baseball fan at the time. I ended up working in football, actually. So I worked for the Detroit Lions here in Michigan for ten years, and I wanted to go into PR. I was always a writer first, and I ended up working in digital media, which oversaw the website, which is very archaic at the time. This was 2004, and what ended up being social media, because that started while I was there, and I fell in love with social. It was just so fantastic. I'm a huge human behavior junkie. I study the enneagram. I've always been into psychology, and so for me, I loved the dynamic of creating the content and then being able to see in real time how it was being received and then be able to reiterate and get better with it. And I loved it. So I stayed with the Lions until 2014, and then I left to start my own business. And a few years in, I accidentally discovered LinkedIn because someone asked me to do their profile. But when I recognized how LinkedIn had evolved because it became a content generation platform, and then the fact that the algorithm worked in a way that the better your content, they actually did push it out to more people. So you were actually rewarded for quality content. This wasn't just like, you have to pay to play. That's when it was like, okay, this is just the perfect cross section of what I'm good at and what I love to do. And when you add another component because I actually work with another company now, which is headed up by a former NFL wide receiver, when you throw an influencer in there, it gets even. So between those things, that's where LinkedIn really became a zone of genius for me.
[03:40] Katie: And what is it specifically that you enjoy most about it?
[03:46] Chrissie: I love the fact that I can actually come up with content that I believe will be received well. And what I'm coming up with makes the difference. So it's the fact that I can think through someone's what's going on in their life, what's going on in their professional life, I really break it down into what I believe are the most marketable qualities of that individual. And I can craft these posts and put them out and see how they do. And it's a matter of I really can think through how the audience will receive it. And it is a factor. Like I said, as a post like Facebook, you could put the most perfect thing out there and two people see it unless you put some ad spend behind it. So the fact that I can actually craft those posts and put them out, and then my favorite part is when they blow up and I get to be all excited because I did it.
[04:44] Katie: It sounds to me like it's a combination of four things. One of them is basically knowing, really in depth, the whole world of a person. So their personal life, their professional life, the human behavior side of things that you mentioned. Then the second aspect would be looking into that world, what's really marketable. Then I feel that you also really love actually crafting the pieces because you said you love the writing aspect of things. That's the writing and then the reward, right? When it just really blows up, the.
[05:14] Chrissie: Reward is the best part. And sometimes the reward too, is the client sees it and they get really excited. And I do make sure that these posts, by the way, are in the voice of the person. So when you look at my background in terms of being a writer, I didn't want to be a journalist because I didn't want kind of an adversarial sort of approach to things when I was looking in sports. So I wanted to be a part of a team or be a part of an organization. But I have that journalistic background. And when I was with the Lions, I interviewed players for content all the time. So that's actually the method that I use. And so I'll interview my clients and record the interview, and I take what they say and I turn that into these posts. So anything that goes out there is what they think. It's their ideas, their thoughts. It's not like I'm just coming up with something out of the blue and saying, hey, is this okay? So it's all their perspective, and it's just a matter of crafting it in a way that it's formed well so that it catches attention and that people want to read through it, and then that it's engaging, amazing.
[06:21] Katie: It sounds to me like that's exactly your added value compared to maybe all the other LinkedIn content creators marketers out there is the fact that you're really able to tune into their voice but still do the writing. Most people are either from what I feel, they're either helping others to write their own content or they're just writing content on similar topics for the people, but maybe not as clearly in their own voice.
[06:48] Chrissie: Yes, I'm very big on the authenticity piece, and people are paying because they don't have time. But at the same time, from my vantage point, what's the point in somebody else being you on a platform that you're trying to purely represent you? It doesn't make sense. So there's definitely ways in which it's crafted to where we save them time, but they always have input into what's going on. They know what's going on. They're engaging with people. I'm not having 20 minutes back and forth chat conversations with people as someone else. So it's authentic to who that person is, which I believe actually is the number one thing about being successful on that platform, is being authentically you.
[07:32] Katie: Absolutely. Which can be tricky if you're writing posts for other people. So that's why combining those things is so important. Do you sometimes get surprised which posts do better than others?
[07:44] Chrissie: Yes. I've told clients that the audience will choose which parts of you they want to hear more from, and it can be really surprising. So you can say, okay, I think that if we talk about your dog, it's going to do really well, and you'll do it and no one cares. And then you'll do something about cooking and everyone really wants to hear what you have to say about cooking, and that's all they want to hear from. And it's obvious because you'll post one subject and everyone goes crazy over it, and then you'll post something else and no one cares. And it does. It's so bizarre. It's like they choose which parts of you they really want to hear from.
[08:30] Katie: Yes. This definitely resonates with me. When I look back at the posts of them best, I know that a few where I mentioned struggles, such as the lack of marketing when I started my career, or my business career, or the one about it being lonely as an entrepreneur did really well. But then when I mentioned something that I think is so important as a tip on habits or peak performance, I think, oh, this is gold, and I'm super excited about it. And you get like two likes.
[08:56] Chrissie: It's so sad. I know it's the saddest thing. You're like, oh, this is amazing. Everyone's going to go crazy about this. And you're like, Maybe it didn't post right? I don't know what happened.
[09:10] Katie: Some posts I'm really not that excited about. I think it's kind of sort of something obvious maybe, or not that big a deal. And then it's really popular. So that's why I asked you if you were surprised, because I know I am, yes.
[09:22] Chrissie: And it's like I could even tell you people, like, when I'm sarcastic. And there are certain things, too. You can post the same post over and over again, and people will get just as excited as if you just posted it. Like, I went through a phase where if you talk about LinkedIn not being a dating site, that was a big one. Everyone would go crazy about that. The tagline of LinkedIn isn't Facebook. That one usually goes crazy. Everyone has something to say about oh, and the Lurkers. So I always talk about how when you're posting on LinkedIn and you're trying to generate leads. Anyone who does this on LinkedIn, it's almost like an official, unofficial stat is that the people who reach out to you for business. You've never heard from them, they're probably not connected with you, and you've never seen them comment like anything on any of your posts. And they send you a message and they say, hey, I've been following you for like three months. I'd really like to work with you. It's like a rule. The people who buy from you, you've never heard of them. So we call it like the Lurker phenomenon. And whenever we post about that, that post always goes nuts too, because everyone's like, It's so true. I don't understand all these people that reach out. So that's why I always say you have your fan club of the people who are constantly liking and commenting and engaging with your stuff, which helps amplify it. And then you've got the people who you'll never hear from until they're ready to buy from you.
[10:55] Katie: That's amazing. And that's why it's so important to post consistently, because one might feel that one post is quite well, another not so much. And what's the point? Some might feel they don't get results, but then when you do do it consistently, you get this type of phenomenon. I've never heard from you.
[11:12] Chrissie: Yeah. And so don't get discouraged. And sometimes people have certain topics that they post about that aren't topics people really want to engage around because it might make them look bad to an employer or whatever the reason. So people are watching, even if you don't necessarily see it in comments or likes and things like that. Definitely.
[11:35] Katie: And I've also noticed that some posts that don't get a lot of engagement are maybe posts where people don't necessarily want to show that they relate to it. So I want to confess that that's one of their struggles. One of them was, are you lacking motivation, Vincent? Maybe if they like it, they're sort of saying, I'm lacking motivation, so they don't want to like it.
[11:55] Chrissie: Exactly. Or like, you're not going to post, like, hey, who hates their boss? Don't do that. That's probably not the best idea. What was really funny and this is way back when, because we haven't had open society in quite some time, but I actually would do LinkedIn local events, and I would go to the LinkedIn Local event and people would say, oh my gosh, I saw your post today. It was so good. And I'm going I thought that bombed. Like, nobody commented on it or anything. And people still they read it, they resonated with it, but they didn't do anything. So it was weird. It was almost like this reassurance that, okay, people are actually reading it even if they don't respond. I don't know, maybe they just are very particular about where they want to put their likes. I don't know.
[12:39] Katie: I think for some people, it's a commitment. For people who are used to liking engaging, commenting all the time, it's just a no brainer. But I think for some people, it's sort of a mini commitment or a mini form of action. I'm not quite sure why some people are less likely to engage on posts than others.
[12:58] Chrissie: Yeah, some people really want to hold those likes really close. They don't want to give them away to just anybody.
[13:05] Katie: This sort of ties back to human behavior. I know you said you were really interested in it, and it was amazing to see that you also studied the enneagram, which is something that I haven't spoken about once on any episode that I also studied and I loved. Obviously, we won't go into all the details here because the people who don't know the Ana Khan won't follow. I'm a seven, though, just saying, okay.
[13:27] Chrissie: I'm an eight, if you can't tell.
[13:31] Katie: I think I'm also a pretty obvious seven. But in general, around personality types, I was wondering, how do you feel that you use this knowledge to help you with crafting content or LinkedIn marketing? Because in general, I find personality types are extremely useful.
[13:47] Chrissie: They are. I will say that probably the most I probably use it the most, actually with the people I work with and when I bring people on. And it's helpful with clients, too, if you can know a client's number because it just helps you innately know how to engage that person. Because for a seven or an eight, I could pretty much say whatever the heck I want. You're going to be like, okay, whatever. It's not going to offend you or anything like that because we're just straight up, we'll be fine. But if I'm working with a three, if I'm working with a two, people who might not be as receptive to black and white type of discussions, it helps you understand better how to engage them. And then the other piece, too, that helps with clients is it helps you not take things as personally because you recognize that, okay, this person might be. And you can kind of fill in a blank there and go okay, that makes sense as to why they might be a little uncomfortable with this, that or the other. Because some people aren't as comfortable with putting certain things out there. And the fascinating thing about it, too, is that it's not necessarily vulnerability, because vulnerability is very subjective. So for like if people see what I post on LinkedIn, another number, they might think that I'm extremely vulnerable on LinkedIn and I'm really not. I just talk about whatever the heck I want, what's vulnerable for me? I would never go on LinkedIn and be crying or tell somebody how afraid I am of something. That's the vulnerability piece for me. Whereas vulnerability of what I do might actually be vulnerable for a different type. So it's helpful in regards to engaging people and then knowing kind of what's going to be comfortable for them sharing. Because that's really the number one thing I do when I work with people, is I do a marketing. Blueprint and that has these content buckets. And you can tell when people are really open and they're kind of willing to talk about a bunch of different things and when people are just very like, I only want to talk about the business, and I want to talk about information. And I have no desire to even come close to anything with my personal life or anything like that. And as long as it's authentic, it will work. So I couldn't take somebody who's uncomfortable with humor or uncomfortable with sharing a family story, force them to share that story. It wouldn't do well. That to me is the most fascinating thing about social is that it's a written word. People don't know the person, but it somehow resonates through that written word, whether it's authentic or not. It's crazy and it wouldn't do well if it wasn't really them. It's bizarre, but it's very true.
[16:52] Katie: Essentially what you're saying is through the different personality types, it's more about understanding the filters people have in terms of vulnerability and what they're comfortable in sharing. Which is one of the things I also feel is extremely useful when we start to have a grasp about tendencies. Because again, no one fits in a box. People get very upset about this. It's not about box. This is true.
[17:13] Chrissie: Seven.
[17:17] Katie: Not in a box. It's tendencies. But when you understand people's tendencies, you do see recurring patterns which can then help you to sort of tweak that definitely that's super useful.
[17:29] Chrissie: Yes. I love sevens, by the way. They're everywhere in my life.
[17:34] Katie: Well, I love eight because they're direct and I like direct and honesty because I feel that then you know where you're at. So just for people listening, just know if someone is an eight or a tendency eight, they won't tell you they like your dress. If they don't like your dress, they won't tell you you're doing a great job. If you're not doing a great job right. They're very honest and so I like that. And some people that are more sensitive and take things more personally can get offended by eight. But I'm a seven, so I like everyone and I'm happy definition of sevens. Yes. Anyway, coming back to the point, it's interesting what you were saying about showing up authentically on social and people being able to pick up on this. What do you think gives people away when they're not authentic?
[18:28] Chrissie: I don't know. It's really interesting to me because it's one of those things that I've learned through just doing and seeing the response and so I know that it's not an authentic thing. I mean, to me it's obvious when someone's trying to be someone else, when someone's trying to kind of carbon copy what they see someone else doing as successful that I think a lot of people can really pinpoint. It's like, okay, you're just trying to be this type of person. Like you see all these other people are succeeding and it's just clearly not you. It just doesn't emanate that feeling of like this is a uniquely you sort of a thing that you're doing when it comes to written word. Honestly, it really fascinates me and I'm actually not sure what it is other than, I don't know, maybe all of our 6th sense that we can really sense whether people are being genuine and real or it's like it flows a certain way. I really have no idea to a degree, but I've seen it happen over and over and over again. And if there's someone who is just very information based, what I tell people is you're either going to inform, entertain or inspire. You're going to do one or all of those things. And not everybody is the kind of person who entertains some people. Like there are people that I follow on LinkedIn who are so sarcastic and it's hilarious. If I tried to be that I can be sarcastic, but it's got to be my version. If I tried to be this person's type of sarcastic, people would think I was the biggest jerk to walk the planet. It would not work and I would turn so many people off. This person has all these people that follow him. They think he's great and it just works because it's who he is. So it's just like it really does fascinate me in terms of the fact that we can kind of tell as human beings when someone's really sitting in who they are and when they're not. It's just something that I think we can tell.
[20:38] Katie: Yes. I was also curious what are the cues that means we can tell, but it's true. I think we can see if something is robotic and we can see if it's people's own words or way of talking, especially if it's consistent. Maybe it's hard to tell from one post, but if it's someone you follow regularly, you get to know their style. Like you were saying, some of the people you follow who are highly sarcastic and you pick up on the words they use as sort of topics and you resonate or you don't. But yes, it makes sense.
[21:07] Chrissie: I think that another part of it is that when someone's being authentically them, what they're posting goes a step further. Even if it is just informational, it's deeper. It has a sense of real substance to it, as opposed to being kind of very surface level. And I'm just kind of going through the ABC of how you structure a post. You're really going into it. And so I think that piece of it is something that's relevant as well. I mean, you see a lot of people right now on LinkedIn that are focused on social equity, and these people are all in, and they are really talking about they're very passionate about it, obviously, and they get a lot of pushback, but it's authentically who they are. It's something they're incredibly passionate about. And so while they have a lot of people that don't like what they're doing, they also have a lot of diehard followers who are extremely supportive of what they're doing. So I think there's also a matter of when you really dig into something and you go all in on it, it really makes a difference.
[22:19] Katie: And that's where the vulnerability is, because going all in and going deep on certain topics, but maybe also private life or even professionally going deep on something that really matters to you. There's a vulnerability and a fear, I think, of it not being as successful as we'd want it. When it's one of your favorite topics or something that really inspired you, or something you feel really strongly about, then sharing it quite deeply and then not getting the response you would want. I think that scares a lot of people.
[22:49] Chrissie: Yeah, it does.
[22:53] Katie: I'm curious about your viewpoint on videos because you focus mostly on written content.
[22:59] Chrissie: Yeah.
[23:00] Katie: So how do you do when you're working with your clients around video? Do you feel that LinkedIn can be purely just written content? Do you feel it's best to have a mix? What's your viewpoint on videos?
[23:14] Chrissie: When I look at clients, I usually look at what is comfortable for them. I think one of the things that comes up with video is that you're supposed to do it, and that isn't necessarily true. It's interesting because when you look at LinkedIn, you get these kind of ebbs and flows of trends. And you went through the one trend where all you saw when you went on LinkedIn was people looking at you with the subtitles and they're talking at you, or they're walking down the street or whatever it is they're doing, but they're just, like, talking at you. And I'm just like, okay. I mean, that's cool. So, I mean, if it's what you do, it's what you do. But for example, I have one client who they're a video production company. So video is good. But the post that went really crazy, it was the cutest thing in the world. Her son had his little camera. They were on set and he was like recording the shoot they were doing and it was the cutest thing in the world and we had the copy that went with it and the post went nuts. It was fantastic. And the interesting thing though was that I read the comments, people read what we wrote too, so it wasn't like they just watched the video and moved on. They also read the post, but it did so well, and it was adorable. And it wasn't somebody talking at the camera. It was just a scene, which I think, thank God. Well, it might just be because I'd ignored all the people that are staring at the camera for long enough that now they don't serve them to me anymore. I'm not sure, but I've done a couple with clients where we're recording a scene or we're recording people engaging with one another and I think video is really amazing for that. I am the person though, who I only do what I think is going to work specific to that person. So if I come up with video or I think video is good, it's because I think that person would do good with video or I think there's something that's worthy of posting on a video that we should put up there. So I'm usually though looking at pictures that will pull someone in or a video that will pull someone in and then making sure that those top lines will pull them in. Initially it's the above the fold phenomenon, so making sure that whatever's up there at the top grabs them right away so that they're stopping and paying attention.
[25:52] Katie: Yes, that's a whole technique. It's a whole skill. What do you feel makes posts go viral then? Because you mentioned quite a few that went blew up and did really well, like the one you just said with the baby. What would you feel is sort of the key ingredient to a post going viral?
[26:13] Chrissie: Honestly, I think there's a few things taking influencers out of it and I can speak to one of those after this. But I would say honestly, the biggest thing is something that sparks a conversation when it gets to where something's been posted that everybody has to weigh in on it because they feel very strongly about one way or the other. And it has to be something that has a very simple one way or the other. Even if it's like a really important stuff, like life or death stuff. But there's clearly specific viewpoints and you've got one group that says one thing and one group that says another and they're just going back and forth and talking about it and it could be like honestly, some of my most viral posts or some of the posts were like do you like coffee or not? I did one where it was like do you shower before? Because it was obviously during pandemic. Do you shower before you work or do you work first and then get ready. Oh, everyone had something to say about that. I mean that just went crazy. I mean it's the most ridiculous thing but people all had to weigh in on it. Let's talk about it. So I think that a lot of it is if you're sparking that endless conversation that everybody really wants to get in on it it just starts to spread and everybody wants to weigh in on it.
[27:47] Katie: It's interesting how as content creators and I consider myself one we try so hard to do things that are philosophical and interesting and insightful and clever and smart and quote people and then actually sometimes the best way to get people engaged is just to ask them about daily things they're going through. Because that would work in a big group, let's say at a networking event more than if you start going on and on about this topic they've never heard about or this complicated concept.
[28:17] Chrissie: And the influencer post I was going to mention this is my employer and he used to play football and he struggles very much with the stigma that he's a football player. And so he's not taken as seriously in business. He's brilliant in business. He's a serial entrepreneur. He's done incredibly well for himself. And I'll take pictures of him and then we kind of go we'll use them when we use them. And I posted the picture of him and it's something that he had said a lot and I just decided and I'll throw this out there, see how it does. And it's literally two lines and it says I'm not a football player who now owns a business. I'm a businessman who used to play football. Oh that went crazy. I mean it ended up with like over 300,000 views and he only had like I think 6000 followers at the time because we're just kind of reigniting his LinkedIn. It went crazy. I mean it was going and going and going past a week. That's one of the great things too about LinkedIn is the longevity of posts is that they will keep serving it for up to even a little bit more than a week. But yeah, it went crazy. Just that very simple statement and everyone had something to say and congratulate him and all that kind of stuff and then you had some trolls come out and so that was interesting too. So it can be those very simple but powerful statements that end up doing really well.
[29:48] Katie: Yes, that sounds like a deep one in terms of identity. And as soon as it's in terms of identity people recognize themselves in it because there is something where people have seen them as a mother, a wife or whatever and they think deep down they're actually whatever. An artist, an entrepreneur, it depends. So it's something I think where people resonate and also where they think it's interesting to see the other person from a totally. Different perspective.
[30:16] Chrissie: Yes. People really resonated when the pandemic started. I really started putting out some more vulnerable things. I started putting out yoga stuff, yoga practice, and I've posted about sobriety. I post every year because I consider that a pay it forward type thing where I want to make sure that I put that out there in case someone is struggling or doesn't want to feel alone. And a lot of people reached out to me and just said they really appreciated how candid I was and how open I was. And so I think sometimes people just really want to have someone to relate to or identify with. And so whether they're identifying with the fact that you're annoyed by something or they are inspired by what you're doing, or it's something they would never say, but you're saying it, and so they're really excited about that. There's a lot of different things that can really get people in your corner and becoming a part of that fan club, so to speak.
[31:19] Katie: Wonderful. It's such a beautiful note to finish on, too, because, again, we're back in terms of authenticity and connecting with people. The time flew by. Thank you so much, Chrissy, for doing this interview.
[31:31] Chrissie: Yes, thank you so much for having me.
[31:36] Katie: Thank you for listening to the Focus B show. We would love to hear your feedback. Let us know in a review how this episode inspired you. Keep buzing.