[00:01] Katie: Welcome to the Focus B show, where Katie Stoddart, high performance coach, interviews experts around the world in performance and mindfulness. Now here's your host, Katie.
[00:34] Katie: To a brand new episode of the Focus B show I am very excited to have here today Terry McDougall. Terry is an executive and career coach and a leadership consultant. She is also the host of her podcast Marked in Mambo and has written the book Winning the game of work. Hello Terry, welcome to the show. It's wonderful to have you here today, Katie.
[01:01] Terry: Thanks so much for having me. It's good to be here.
[01:04] Katie: Amazing. I'd like to begin with one of the key topics that you discuss, which is around leadership. I'm wondering, how do you think people learn best leadership? Is it something that can be taught and what are the sort of key pillars that help people to learn leadership?
[01:22] Terry: Absolutely, leadership can be taught, and I think that the way that people learn leadership typically is by modeling the leadership that they've seen. Unfortunately, not everybody has had the experience of working with truly good leaders. However, I will tell you that as a coach, I'm often helping people sort of shift their focus into what leadership is, and I absolutely believe that it can be taught. And I mean, we can certainly go into that if you'd like, but maybe we can get into that later in the conversation.
[02:07] Katie: What would be the sort of three pillars that you could feel that are essential to learn leadership?
[02:14] Terry: Well, I think that leadership is about making sure that you're using the resources that have been entrusted to you, including your people, the people on your team to execute on the objectives of what you've been entrusted with to do at your organization. And I think it's really important to understand that there's kind of a balance in leadership between support and challenge. And when I find that people are having issues around being effective leaders, it's because they're skewing too far to one of those sides. So they're either providing too much support and people don't really take ownership of what's been given to them. So, yeah, they skew to one side or the other of the balance between support and challenge. And if they go too far towards support, people don't feel ownership of the thing that they're doing. And if they go towards too much towards challenge, it means that the leader is dropping a heavy weight on the person and not helping them have the resources or the guidance or the training to get things done. And that can be very demoralizing. So either have people that are feeling entitled like, I don't have to do this, or they're feeling like I have to do this, but I don't even know how to do this, or no matter what I do, I'm going to be criticized. So when you can get that rate balance, people feel liberated. And I think that's really critical. I think another thing to think about is when you're leading, understanding what you're leading people towards, and people do well when they understand the context of what they're doing and what the vision is that they're moving towards. I think painting that a really clear vision for your staff and then helping them understand what the context is of what they're doing and how it supports it is another really important part of leadership.
[04:24] Katie: Yes. So the challenge and support and then the vision aspect, I love both of these. And this also brings me to something we discussed a bit off air when we first spoke, which is around basically a lot of leaders in high managerial positions or high leadership positions tend to be overworked. They struggle with slowing down. So how do you help them have more impact, do their job really well and yet work less hours?
[04:51] Terry: Yeah, well, I think it's really important as a leader to step back and understand clearly what the objective is and then also to look at all of the resources that they have available to them and make sure that they're getting full leverage out of everything that they have. And what I see very often, especially when people have been strong individual contributors, that sometimes they have a hard time mentally elevating themselves to be that leader and to recognize that they have the power to design a system that works for them to get the results. And when their first instinct is just to jump in and sort of use their own strength and brute force to get things done, that's when they tend to be overworked. Also, I might add that a lot of times when people are overworked, it is because they are too much on that support side of the seesaw, if you will, that if somebody is not performing or someone's not able to do something, rather than stepping back and saying, what does this person need? They're just jumping in and doing it. Rather than saying, well, maybe I need to design a better system or perhaps I need to get this person training, maybe this person actually can take on more work and I just haven't provided support in equal measure to the challenge that I'm giving them.
[06:24] Katie: Amazing. I love what you said about designing that system. So instead of being the ants that are doing the work in the system, actually looking at the whole ant nest and how it's functioning and making it efficient, or in other words, not being the parts in it, but being the part that has the vision above it. And why do you think people struggle with actually letting go and trusting others to do it? Why do you think they feel they need to intervene to get the work done?
[06:53] Terry: Well, I think that a lot of times they haven't thought about how do I translate what I'm just able to do? Sometimes, almost intuitively, how do I translate that into something that I can teach somebody else. And for many high achieving people, they don't know how they do what they do, or they've been doing it for so long that it's hard for them to go back and have that beginner's mind to say what's the appropriate way for me to begin teaching this to someone else? And I think that that's critical. But I also find that people often are so focused on execution. Obviously in today's business world, it's go, go. And people feel like, oh, I'm under this deadline, I have to get this done. And so they may feel uncomfortable stepping back to take the time to plan or take the time to change or I mean, sorry, to delegate. So I think that it's hard to withstand that pressure to find the leverage points and learn how to use those. But it's critical to do it because there's no growth without leveraging all the resources that you have as fully as you can.
[08:17] Katie: Absolutely. And it's so essential what you just said in terms of how people actually view the activities that they're doing and how they view the entire system. I'm curious as to what do you feel are some of the key leverage points that they use to optimize this?
[08:34] Terry: Yeah, there's quite a few. I mean, I think one of the biggest ones is delegation, which is I will say to leaders that I'm working with, take a look at all of the tasks that you're doing and divide them up into tasks that only you can do and tasks that, given the right training, somebody else could do. And often what I find is that people are spending a lot of time on work that could be delegated. And I remind them that there's an opportunity cost to doing things that could be delegated because that means they're not doing the work that only they can do. So that's one, another one is prioritization. Again, sometimes people have it in their mind like I have this long to do list and I have to do everything on the to do list. And quite frankly, in today's business world, we have to prioritize because there's usually enough tasks that we could be working twenty four, seven. And so if we started the things that are less important and we're not really doing the things that really should be high priority and then we're not really focusing on probably where we can get the most leverage. And then there's lots, there's building systems and processes that are repeatable so you're not always putting out the same fire. And then there's also time management things like task batching, where rather than answering the emails like here and there and losing focus all day long, that you actually put time on your calendar to do things like maybe processing. Invoices or returning emails or returning phone calls, or I've had people that liked the open door policy, and so they were having people come in their office all day long, distracting them from their work. And it's very difficult to I actually think the most valuable thing that we squander is focus in today's business world. And if we're able to hold on to that precious focus by closing the door for 2 hours to get the focus work done, that we're going to be more efficient. And so maybe somebody actually gets more work done in an eight hour day than they used to get done in a ten or twelve hour day.
[11:04] Katie: Absolutely. And focus is one of the topics I'm most passionate about with my brand of focus being. So I can totally relate to the distraction part and the batching. And all of these are so important. To sort of briefly recap what you're saying, you said one of these leverage points are delegation. Then the other one was prioritization, building systems and habits and then time management in terms of distraction. Now, out of all of these, I'd like to go back specifically to prioritization, because this is something that I remember when I first started my business, it took a lot of trial and error to really figure out what my priorities are. And I'm curious, what are your sort of tips for the listeners to help them figure out how should they manage all their tasks and which one should they really prioritize?
[11:51] Terry: Well, I often will suggest people study the Eisenhower box, which is something that I learned about from Stephen Covey's seven Habits of Highly Effective People. But apparently President Eisenhower here in the United States used it back in the 1950s, and I guess when he was a general in the army, which is on one axis there is importance, and on the other axis is urgent. And we often get sucked into doing things that are urgent and not necessarily important. And the things that sometimes fall to the bottom of the list are the things that are important but not urgent. And actually, when I've suggested that, when I have shared this matrix with some of my clients, they'll tack it up at their desk. And when things come across their desk, they'll take a look at the Eisenhower box and say to themselves, where does this fall? Is this important but not urgent? Meaning that I need to schedule time on my calendar to focus on this. Is this important and urgent, which usually means we need to do it right now, or is this urgent, I can delegate it, or it's not important and it's not urgent, we probably don't need to do it at all. And I will say that a lot of times there are things that are not important and not urgent that can be kind of vestiges of maybe an old way of doing things. And we really should, on a regular basis, examine everything that we're doing and ask do we still need to do it? Maybe a process has changed and there's something that we used to do that's no longer necessary. I had a client who was actually I worked on all of this with her because she had been promoted and was working like 70 hours a week and getting very burnt out and considering asking for a demotion. But once we started using all these leverage points, she found a lot of time and was a lot more effective. But one of the things we discovered was she was talking about some report that she did and it took her a couple of hours a week to gather all the information and put it together. And I asked her, how does your boss use that? And she ended up asking her boss and her boss said, I don't care about that. That was something that the previous supervisor wanted and this person didn't. And so she found 2 hours a day, 2 hours a week.
[14:23] Katie: Amazing. It's so funny how we can get stuck in old patterns that don't even need to be done at all. And this is where I feel that a lot of it comes down to when we review our weeks and our months because then we're able to do this. Do you have a particular system that you recommend to your clients for them to sort of review their weeks and see where they can gain these extra hours or sort out their priorities?
[14:47] Terry: Well, I think that this is great that you bring this up, because I do suggest that people take a look, especially when they're starting to delegate to look back over the week, either on Friday or maybe over the weekend or Sunday night, whatever, to look back and give themselves a grade maybe on how did I do and what could I do better? What are some things that I was doing that I could delegate this coming week? And then, of course, when it comes to prioritization and you're looking at your to do list, maybe things look one way on Monday, but by Friday there have been a lot of important and urgent things that came up during the week. And so maybe some of the important but not urgent things that get done. And so it's very important to constantly be looking at your priority list and reprioritizing depending on what's going on in that moment.
[15:48] Katie: Absolutely. And I think it's so important and what you said earlier about slowing down because I feel this also it plays here because we're actually slowing down to review our week. What are some of the beliefs that people have about slowing down? Why are they reluctant to do it?
[16:05] Terry: Well, they're very fearful that they're going to get dinged for not executing because obviously in business we are paid for results and they're afraid that if they stop for one moment, that's a moment that they're not going to be running fast down the road towards the goal. But the thing that I'd like people to realize is that if you don't stop and take inventory at times about how things are going, and stop and take a breath and really look at things in the context, you might be running really fast in the wrong direction. And that's problematic, obviously, if you wake up and you're like, oh, we're not anywhere near our goal. I've been doing a lot of stuff, but it's not the right stuff.
[17:00] Katie: Yes, it's so true. And if we don't take the time to slow down, then not only might we be going in the wrong direction, but we might be going in the right direction less efficiently, like we already said in terms of authorities and delegation. And also, this is why I've seen in terms of having breaks, it's so counterintuitive because people always feel that if they take a break, they're losing time on productivity when in fact they're gaining energy that makes them more productive.
[17:30] Terry: Absolutely. And I'm so glad that you brought up the topic of energy, because a lot of times when people get into that go go mode, they're in a mode that burns energy faster, meaning that maybe they're feeling the pressure, they're not in the flow. And that's a very energy inefficient place to be. Right. If you're feeling the pressure and you're just running, running. But if you can stop, take a breath and elevate yourself somewhat so that you feel calm, you're looking and you're saying, okay, where are we? Am I doing the right things? Is this the right way to be doing them? And then we get back into that execution mode. A lot of times we'll find that we're more in the flow and we feel more confident that, yes, we're not just blindly running towards something that we think is what needs to be done, that we know that we're going in the right direction and that we're using the resources effectively. And there's confidence that goes along with that. And typically, I think people feel like they're more in the flow, they're more in control, and their energy just flows better. They don't feel burnt out as quickly.
[18:51] Katie: Exactly. It's true that we do our best work when we're in flow and it's more enjoyable on top of that.
[18:56] Terry: Absolutely.
[18:59] Katie: What are some of the strategies that you share in your book winning the Game of Work that we haven't covered up till now?
[19:07] Terry: Oh my gosh. Well, there's so many.
[19:11] Katie: Adapted to this topic.
[19:16] Terry: There's one about the lies that we tell ourselves, which I think that sometimes when we're not changing our behavior, it's because there is some kind of deep seated belief that what we're doing is the right thing. And I think it's very important, especially if we're having feelings of anxiety, to stop, take a breath, go deep and say, what is the belief that's inside of me that it's making me feel like I have to run 9 miles an hour? 24/7. Right. Raise that up to the level of consciousness and ask yourself, where is this coming from? What is this belief? I will tell you sometimes when I'm talking to people and I'll say, well, what's keeping you from instituting change? And what is it that you're afraid of? And sometimes I'll say something like, well, I'm afraid of fired. First of all, I think that's wonderful when people can access what that belief is and they can say it out loud because then we can really do a fact check against reality. And for example, I've had people say that I'm afraid that I'm going to get fired if I don't do this right or if I get it done by exactly this deadline. And I said, okay, well, you just got exceeds expectations on your performance review. Do you really think that if you get this done on Tuesday instead of Friday that you're going to get fired? And then I'll just sort of laugh and say, you know what? That was my deadline anyway. That wasn't even my boss's deadline. There's often there's deep seated beliefs and also it can be things that we told ourselves that might not even be aligned with reality. So we have to realize that we're often the ones that are driving ourselves that hard. And actually I've worked with a lot of people whose bosses will actually tell them, I need you to slow down. I need you to be more strategic. But it's their own messaging that is driving them at that pace that it's actually not sustainable.
[21:37] Katie: What do you feel are some of the reasons why they feel they have to go at this pace? Not just from the results driven orientation, but deep down, why do they have.
[21:49] Terry: To go at that it's that is such an excellent question. And when I was writing my book, I came across some research by a professor at Harvard Business School called Tom Belong. And he studied high achievers. And his hypothesis is that high achievers are addicted to external validation. And if you really think about the fact that most high achievers started achieving in school and I think back to my elementary school, when the teacher gave me that gold star on the top of my paper, I was validated, okay, I'm going to keep turning my homework and doing my best so that I get that reward. And when people have been rewarded for focusing on what someone else expects of them, they keep doing that and keep doing that. And then what will happen is that a lot of times they forget to check in with their own inner wisdom. And a lot of the coaching that I do is just helping people to shift back to checking in with their inner wisdom and trusting and relying on their own inner wisdom. And honestly, sometimes having the courage to make the trade offs between honestly, sometimes deadlines in the business world aren't realistic. Sometimes we're charged with doing things that just aren't possible. And we really need to step back and say, what can I do? How can I optimize this situation? And if we're so focused on what other people care about or what other people have charged us with and we're afraid if we don't fulfill on what they've given us that we'll lose validation. We can feel really lost if we forget that we have the ability to validate ourselves. And I think that that's one of the hallmarks of people that become strong and confident leaders is that they understand that they've got good judgment and they're willing to rely on that good judgment. And that also can sustain them when perhaps somebody is unhappy with something that they've done, but they can say to themselves, I know that I did the best that I could given the resources and circumstances.
[24:17] Katie: Interesting. So it feels to me like it goes from external validation to internal validation.
[24:24] Terry: Yes, it's so interesting for me to see when people need to make that transition. And I think that we can be very blind to the fact that we can shift back to ourselves and we can shift back to say, what do I think the best avenue is for success in this situation? Rather than always looking around and saying, who's going to validate me? Who's going to give me a pat on the back here? And I will tell you too, this is really interesting that obviously as you rise in organizations, you've got a job and very often you get very little direction, right? If you're a senior leader, you sit in the strategy meetings like everybody else and they say, okay, everybody understands the strategy. Okay, go back and implement within your department, right? Nobody is coming in and saying, okay, today I want you to do this and tomorrow I want you to do this. And often maybe you're not even meeting with your boss very often to give them updates. And so if you're looking for external validation and you haven't developed your own inner wisdom or your own inner resilience, it's going to be very anxiety provoking because you're going to be like, oh, I don't know if I'm on the right path or not, and what if I'm doing this wrong? What if my boss doesn't like what I'm doing? But if you step back, if you rise out of that fight or flight mode and you rise and tap into that inner wisdom, and then you'll find a place of more calm, and you can really step back and look and say, no, I think I'm doing the right thing. And I think that I can explain to my boss why I'm doing this, and I don't need them to validate it. They'll just understand my reasoning and accept it.
[26:23] Katie: Sounds to me like almost two different concepts in some way. There's external direction, so people telling you what to do and giving you that clarity. And then once you've done it, you get the external validation. We expect this sort of loop, but first we're given the direction and then the validation, and as soon as we're in a leadership role or have your own business, you have neither or not as much of either of these.
[26:48] Terry: Yeah, and I love the way that you explain that, too, because I think it really puts the spotlight on the fact that that is sort of an immature way of operating. That's how we operate in school, right. Or at home as children, where we go and say, okay, I finished my worksheet. What am I supposed to do now? Right? And the teacher tells you, okay, well, now do this, and you do it, and you go, okay, good job. You get a B on that, or whatever. Or going to your parents and saying, I'll just give you an example. When we clean our house, I have a list of things that we need to do, and I'll get the whole family involved, and my kids will go off and clean something. I'll come back and be like, okay, what should I do now? Right? So I'm telling them, and then they'll go and do it. What should I do now? Right. And as a leader, you got to lead yourself. You need to start doing that yourself. In order to do that, you need to step back and say, okay, I did that. Let me see how that fits into the vision of what I'm trying to achieve here. And you have to say to yourself, what should we do now? Okay, now we're going to do this. Now let me step back. What's the quality of this? Did this work out well? Okay. Yes, it did. So keep going.
[28:07] Katie: And this is where reflection and that space and that slowing down comes into play. I mean, Jerry, the author of Reboot that I also interviewed on the podcast. He talks about this a lot. He talks about how to be a great leader, you need that space and that reflection. And this is exactly what you just said?
[28:25] Terry: Yeah, absolutely. Because it's sort of zooming in and zooming out. I was talking with one of my clients yesterday, and she had to have it. Part of the reason why she was seeking coaching is because she had the habit of jumping in and doing and she wasn't really leveraging her team fully, but she also wasn't sure exactly how to do it. And I was saying to her, think of it as you're in a big forest, and they have those forest fire watchtowers where the forest rangers will be up there so they can see all of the forest. And I said, you need to stay in the watchtower, right? Don't be going down into the forest because you're not going to maintain that view. You need to see what needs to be done and relay that to the people that are down there on the front line to do what needs to be done. And I said, it's going to feel uncomfortable because you're used to being down there, but this is you stretching and developing new capabilities that are going to help you get more efficiency and effectiveness out of the resources that you've been given.
[29:35] Katie: Yes. I love that. That's like the whole overview again and tying it back to leadership and reflection. I can't believe a half an hour has already gone by. Terry, we've covered so many topics in terms of the full leveraging point leadership, reflection. It's been a wonderful conversation. And as a personal takeaway, I really love this idea of making sure we're not seeking external direction and external validation and finding the space to have that internal direction and validation.
[30:06] Terry: Yes. Thank you so much, terry, Katie, thanks for having me.
[30:11] Katie: Thank you.
[30:15] Katie: Thank you for listening to the Focus B show. We would love to hear your feedback. Let us know in a review how this episode inspired you. Keep buzzing.