[00:01] Katie: Welcome to The Focus B Show, where Katie Stoddart high performance coach, interviews experts around the world in performance and mindfulness. Now here's your host. Katie.
[00:32] Katie: Welcome to a new episode of the FocusBy Show. I am thrilled today to be here with Trisha Lewis. Trisha is a speaker, author, communicator, presenter, and coach. Thank you so much for joining the show, Tricia.
[00:47] Trisha: Oh, it's really exciting and sort of international and wonderful.
[00:53] Katie: Thank you. As the author of The Mystery of the Squash Self, I know that you help a lot of people and empower a lot of people to release self doubt. What is your take on the impostor syndrome and what you call unsquash the squash self?
[01:08] Trisha: Yes, I know I'm particularly partial to making up phrases and words, Katie. I don't know whether it's in my old age. No, I think I've always done it, actually. And there is, however, a serious side to that, making up a slightly different phrase to describe something. Because the problem is, as we all know, certain words get used over and over again, and impostor syndrome is instantly recognizable now, only in recent times, not when I was younger at all. But even the original researcher, Dr. Pauline Clance, has actually said it was originally called imposter phenomenon. Nobody can say or spell. She wished she'd called it impostor experience because she felt that it described it better. When I originally started talking about it, I used the phrase feeling fake, which was quite an interesting way of looking at it, too. Feelings, feelings, feelings. And I didn't want people to just sort of go, oh yeah, impostor syndrome. Oh yeah, I got that. Oh yeah, know what that is? So actually, by shaking it up a bit, I think people have looked at other perspectives and raised their kind of self awareness a bit more. And also, talking about unsquashing your squash self is a very, very positive action. So there we go.
[02:42] Katie: Yes, I love this idea that by reframing and calling it differently, it can help you to have a different perspective on it. So how do you help people deal with unsquashing your squash self? If we're taking your new term?
[02:56] Trisha: Okay, so this is born out of my own personal journey, but not me in an ego bubble thinking, I'm just going to talk about this because it's my thing. Clearly, I didn't realize what was going on in my life because, like I said, nobody used to have these kind of conversations. I was born in the 50s, for goodness sakes. So it was only in hindsight that I attributed certain behaviors to this kind of weird form of self doubt. I particularly spotted it when I moved from comparative comfort zone place, although for many, it wouldn't be. It was as a performer, an actor for 20 odd years, doing all sorts of extraordinary things, that some people were so crikey that's so not my comfort zone, but for me, it was it just was. And then I started a business. This was about four and a half years ago, so I came from a kind of arts world into the business world and I knew it was going to be hard, I knew all these demons were going to come flying in my face, and they did. Then, of course, I started unwrapping it and talking to other people, delivering talks and workshops, having these conversations, working with clients, hearing the same thing over and over again. So that was how it all was sort of driven, if you like, from real conversations. Lovely people, intelligent people, quite driven people, creative people, often emotionally intelligent people. So I thought, Hang on a minute, let's see what we can do with this. So, for me, one of the big things was the self awareness. So, like I've just described that journey, getting to that point was a huge step forward, because only then could I start putting all these things out on what I call the forensics table and really unpicking them and examining them and thinking, oh, crikey, I don't need that, that doesn't make any sense at all, et cetera. So, self awareness conversations, talking to other people, not being afraid to look as if you're somehow failing or being daft, is number one. So the more people talk about it like this, the better. Number two is then learning your own little way of talking to this, what is fundamentally a bit of a voice inside your head. And it's only you that is directing that voice. That's the crazy bit. You feel like it's some other thing that is doing this to you. So you'll often find people, and I think this is a really good idea, saying personify, know, make it into a character, give it a name. Kim Boudreau Smith talks about the hag in the attic. There are lots of different ways people describe this. I just literally think of it as the know. And then I've got, obviously, the unsquasher. So that's the key thing. You need the other one as well, so they can have a little chat together and you take it outside of your own muddled, catastrophic spiral, self doubt, emotional quagmire, and it all becomes quite, almost funny in a way. Why did you just say that? That didn't make any sense. So that's number two. And then also spotting your triggers. Because we all, as individuals, know if we really do the work on it, we will spot a pattern. We say it's one of those moments. And I always go down this spiral of negative thinking when this happens, when somebody says that, when I'm with that person, when the weather is like this, the day before, I come down with a cold. It can be the whole body mind the lot, and spotting it quickly, it's going to happen, it's going to happen. But then how quickly you spot it will make all the difference to what happens next. And so my husband used to describe it, he said, you're so much better now. When you used to go down, you went right down to the bottom of the chasm and it took you sometimes days to get back know, with, oh, I'm useless. I don't know why I'm doing this, and everyone else does it better, he said. Whereas now it seems like you just tip over the edge, grab hold of something and pull yourself up really quickly. So there we go. That's a visualization for you, Katie.
[07:43] Katie: Yes. That's wonderful. And I love how you explained that you first really noticed it when you were leaving your comfort zone that for many wouldn't have been a comfort zone as a performer and stepping into the business world. And it often happens when we step up, when we do something out of our comfort zone. And my mentor said that if we didn't have Impostor syndrome, it meant that we weren't actually growing because every time we do something hugely challenging, it happens. And I noticed this also in myself, in my own business. Every time it was a certain type of podcast guest or a certain client or type of workshop with more people, boom, it kicks in. So it's noticing those triggers and one of them, I feel, is growth.
[08:23] Trisha: So that actually touches on, interestingly, this concept of fear of success. And in fact, I'm really keen on people exploring that because I think sometimes they get into a set of thoughts about impostor syndrome that are about failure, sort of somehow that the feeling wrapped up is failure. And actually I my definition of self squashing is suppressing your true self due to a fear that revealing and owning your full passion, personality and power will have you judged as unlikable show off or some kind of weird outsider.
[09:12] Katie: Have you read The Big Leap by Gay Hendrix? Yes, very similar concept here, both in terms of working in the zone of genius and the upper limit problem. So it's feeling as soon as everything is going too well, no, I can't accept this, I have to create some drama in my life and self squash or self sabotage.
[09:31] Trisha: Yes, absolutely. That's spots on. Yes, it's a great book. Yeah.
[09:35] Katie: And while we're on the topic of fear, you have this fantastic acronym illusion, Baggage, Fib. How do Fibs hold us back?
[09:45] Trisha: Yeah, I liked that one. That was another one of my moments where I thought this is actually you know, when sometimes people make up, they get the word first and then they I've gotta find something that fits these letters. This is really clever and it doesn't often work so well that way. But this was actually I was talking about fears, illusions and baggage. I thought. Oh, that spells fibs. And in a way, what we're doing is calling out the fibs that your brain is feeding you. And you can't blame your brain, your brain is a fabulous, lovely thing, but it isn't quite as able to do some of the things we give it credit for, if you like. It is working on some very sort of know little pinholes of light and sound. And so, as Lisa Feldman Barrett talks about, and I love her books, as you know, says, it's a prediction machine, basically, so it will often get it slightly wrong in an attempt to help you survive or whatever. So there are many kind of almost fibs that come from the brain, and fears, I think, is an obvious one. Fear is such a huge, all encompassing emotion that we're all basically battling slightly against the whole time because it would just have us flawed constantly if we let it, to help us survive. This is ancient wiring, all the rest of it. And Illusions is quite an interesting baggage, I think is obvious. We all have it and it doesn't mean that we had a terrible, terrible childhood or something awful and traumatic happened. For some of us that might well be the case, but for many of us it is just the little things, it's just the little messages that were repeated, oh, she's such a shy girl, or whatever it is, just don't show off. And that is baggage, basically, or seeing your authority figures behave in certain ways and thinking, I don't want to be like that, I do want to be like that. It's all baggage. Illusions is what goes on in the world, basically. So we are bombarded with definitions of success, for instance, or what it means to be a woman or a man or whatever, the illusion that we can be a certain way in society and if we're not, it means we don't fit in. And the illusion of advertising and marketing and all the rest of it that comes at us. So it's all of that stuff that goes on around us, that language. I'm sort of making a kind of hand language here, which means nothing, but it's almost slightly floating around us all the time. So that's where you have to really stop and think, hang on a minute, am I going along with this just because hang on a minute, I need to stop and think, really, do I actually need to do this? Just because I've seen this video about this expert who says, these are the five things you have to do to make your business work or otherwise forget it. Let me think about that one, starting with me. And maybe that's a bit controversial because since Simon Sinek, we're all supposed to start with, say, start with you. How about that?
[13:28] Katie: Yes, this sort of ties directly now into the shoulds and how, especially in business, we're told a lot of the time. And I remember when I first started my business, I felt that all the marketers in the world had woken up, telling me to do an Instagram, to have a Facebook page. I didn't want Instagram or Facebook, I never used them. Then there was LinkedIn, which I liked, et cetera, et cetera, and the list goes on. How can business owners sort of detach themselves from these illusions and not feel that they have to do it? Because some people are really convincing and they tap into that self doubt, especially when people are just starting off their business and they say, look, this is what to do. And here are all my clients that did really, really well. And it doesn't mean it's not true, but it might not be the right thing for that person. So how can people have that detachment and not feel they should do all of it?
[14:20] Trisha: Yeah, it is definitely hard. There's no question. It's not a sort of overnight thing. It's like a muscle that you keep having to build. So it's interesting. You talk about tap into so, yes, they're tapping into that stuff in you, so you have to tap into some other stuff, which is interesting because as an actor, I have built over many, many years, quite an understanding of what it feels like when something feels I'm going to say aligned. I mean, it's, again, one of those words which maybe is a bit overused, but who cares? It's accurate, aligned. It's like a radio that's out of tune. It's like something you just want to just tweak that. That's lovely. Yeah, that feels good, that feels good. And so it is tuning into tapping into that moment where it's quite a vague thing to say, but just that feeling almost like the knot unties in your stomach or the weight comes off your shoulders. And I know this is all sort of slightly metaphorical, but it does feel like it is a very physical feeling as well as mental. You're suddenly sort of skipping down the road instead of kind of trudging, because you've just taken that deep breath. You've spent some time go for walks, everybody. I know it sounds really trite, but it's very important. Take yourself away from those voices and think, what do I like about Instagram? Now? As it happens, I actually have got to rather like Instagram, but that is me. The voice that keeps telling me to do maybe Facebook is somebody else's voice. The LinkedIn one is me. The clubhouse one is peer pressure, fear of missing out. Fortunately, I'm so glad I have an Android phone, because it's made it impossible for this period of time when all the RA was going on. So I think that's quite handy. But that's cheating. So, yeah, I think if I can be as vague as to say, you need to take the breaks. The breaks, the breaks. You need to go on these walks, you need to do something else, you need to be in the fresh air, go hug a tree, quite honestly, and sit down and think, do I like Instagram? No, I don't. Every time I think, oh, I've got to do my Instagram grid. It just sends me into a pit of oh God, I feel useless and everybody else's Instagram grid is better and I'll never and then think, hang on, what is going on? What is this achieving for my business, actually. So for me, I'm not on Instagram and this goes against all the rules. I'm not actually on there thinking, yeah, this is going to build my business. Yeah, if I get 10,000 followers I can be an influencer. I am actually on there because I'm creative and I really like making nice photos and I like the fun element of it and I've got some really nice people on there, that's it. And in fact I didn't even go onto LinkedIn with probably the message that I should see should grow your business, do this, send these direct messages, do whatever you can. I just thought, gosh, what a fabulous way to meet people. And I do get clients from there. So everyone's got their own obviously way of their own plan with their business. So let me not sort of think that everybody is quite so maybe slow or gentle as I am. I'm coming up to 64. I probably got a slightly different perspective on some elements of life, but I do know that there is a feeling that happens. And as an actor, it's like if you're creating a character, if you're being a character in rehearsal period, there is a moment where you suddenly you fall into this character, it feels right. And if you don't reach that moment, nothing quite gels. The audience will be fine, they'll love it. Okay, yes, clap, clap, clap, all good, nobody's hurt. But something in you just feels technical.
[19:07] Katie: Term, Katie, very technical. It's the sort of thing that's hard to put in words and I feel that once people know how to identify that feeling, just like what you said and physically feel it because you described the shoulders and not in the stomach, this really happened. And it was interesting when you said skipping compared to sort of plowing along again, it's a feeling of lightness so when you're aligned you don't feel as heavy. And once people know how to tune into this inner compass, then it's easier to not go into the shoulds, to not have this fear of not doing the right thing and actually tapping into it. But every so often it gets harder when the self doubt kicks in again.
[19:48] Trisha: It does, it absolutely does. And that's also when you have to do the sensible things like go back through your own, through testimonials and lovely stuff people have said in emails to you. Just keep an eye on. It is quite a good idea to have a little file of all the lovely things people say and and remind yourself of what you're. Again, sounds a bit trite, but it's really important what your values are, and it is like there is somebody out there with a rope that they are constantly wanting to attach to you and pull you in their direction. And you do have to keep saying, hang on a minute, I'm just going to unhook this rope, if that's all right with you, because I'm not interested in going off in that direction.
[20:32] Katie: Thank you.
[20:32] Trisha: Have a nice time. Bye. You see what I've done again, I've personified the thing and visualized it. And I do encourage people to build that muscle, as I say, probably because of what I've done up till now. I suspect that muscle is quite a strong one in me. But that doesn't mean to say that it is not one that can be built, because that's exactly what I did. So the more you do this, stopping, pausing, reframing, walking around the block, laughing at yourself, personifying all these feared things, actually kind of getting a little bit bulshy with the person with the rope that they're trying to attach to you, not in angry way, but a kind of hands on hips kind of way. Right. Because you need to sort of embody your own sort of power, really. And power in a nice way, not the bad power stuff.
[21:26] Katie: Yes. And the three steps that you shared, the self awareness where it all begins, the personifying and the triggers, those are really essential to build that muscle. And I found myself sometimes laughing out loud in the middle of a thought or the middle of a sentence and being, oh, here's my hyperachiever, because this is my biggest sort of sabotage. And I've acknowledged that it's helped me to get very far, but that I don't need it anymore because it adds extra pressure and a feeling of not enough. So I've actually realized, okay, you are great. Thanks for your help. Again, personifying detaching, but I don't need you anymore. So every time I hear it or I say something about, he's a hyperachiever, I call him Hat hyperachiever type of personality. The other day with my coach, we were like, let's find another name. We'd given it a name before. We're like another name. So exactly. This personifying can really help us to notice them also. To notice and hear, wait, what's this? Why I was feeling happy? Why suddenly not enough? And this feeling of not enough.
[22:22] Trisha: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think it's funny because I was listening to an Audible book that I've just bought, dr. Philippa Fisher. I'm kind of remembering that it's about fear, and she's worked with sportspeople a lot, and she was talking about the climate of scarcity. No. Dr. Pippa Grange. There we go. Fear less how to win at life without losing yourself. And it's a really, really good book, and she was talking about the climate of scarcity. So there's this constant sort of pressure that we're going to miss out, we're going to miss out. There's only so much success to go round. There's only so much happiness. There's only so much money. There's only so much. This we have to grab our bit. We have to grab our bit. Breathe, everybody. That's a myth. That's a total myth. But we've been fed it well since whenever advertising began, to be honest, and before, probably. Yeah, there's only enough twigs for one campfire. I don't know, but I mean, it's a thing in us. It's one of our sort of ancient things and fears. So, yeah, I could blabber on about all this for quite a while, as you've no doubt gathered.
[23:37] Katie: Yes, me too. And the whole scarcity mindset compared to abundance mindset, I sometimes feel it's a switch in the brain. One point it's saying, this is not enough, it won't work, or it's too much or too little, depending on pricing. And the other switch says, it's all going to be great, there's an abundance of everything. And sometimes I don't know if you have any special tips how people can tap into a more abundant mindset to get away from this scarcity.
[24:03] Trisha: Yeah, I think the other thing that I would say is this curiosity mindset, and I talk about getting out of your head, which clearly brings up some other pictures, but that is, again, a visual, right? It's okay to have these little things inside your head and they're in there and you're chatting to them, but the fact you've personified them actually has taken you out of your own head. And it's the same generally in everyday life. For me, a big switch was when I just remember becoming less self conscious. And for me, self consciousness had been a big squasher for decades of my life. So some people might say, oh, is that vanity? You have to keep looking in the mirror to make sure you're this. Do we have it? No, I don't think it's vanity. I think it's kind of yeah. Am I good enough? Am I good enough? Am I good enough? So I remember at this particular moment, I used to do a lot of, if you like, after dinner speaker gigs, and I loved the speaker bit, whereas some people would hate that. That was my thing. So that was my skill. Just like if you're good at carpentry or anything else. So that was fine, there I was. But the meal before or sometimes after was the bit I dreaded because this was, oh, God, I got to make small talk with strangers. Oh, God, I hate this. And I remember all the time it was the stuff inside my own head. What do I say now? Am I being interesting enough? Am I smiling enough? Am I doing this enough? And then one day I just thought, hang on a minute, let's try this differently. So I just started asking loads of questions and being incredibly curious. I didn't need to ask that many because you ask one and somebody's often, just like I am now, often running, and most people are quite fine about talking. Talking about themselves is good. And so all you've got to be is a really good listener, and it practices your listening muscle because you do need to remain present. You can't just say, oh, that's great. I've asked a question I can switch off now. And they can rabbit on because they want. And people then walk away thinking you're the best conversationalist in the world, as you might have only said about four words because they felt that your presence was there and interested. And in the doing of that, it's a total win win situation because you have taken yourself out of your what should I say next? Into being incredibly present. Again, don't care if that sounds trite. It's one of the things that's helped me enormously, both in business, in my life, in my relationships, and I remember this as an actor as well. This was a thing you really had to get good at, being very present. That doesn't mean to say you kind of let it all hang out and everything else. You've got no filters, everything else, just because you actually do have this kind of secondary layer that's running all the time, which is keeping you within control in that particular context. So as an actor, obviously, you've got to be thinking, Where's my cue? Somebody's about to come on here. Something weird has just happened in the audience. Okay, carry on. I've lost my words, but I'm going to get them back again. That's fine. So that's a kind of secondary sort of script going on, but the rest of you is utterly present. So I think if that makes sense to anybody out there, I'd love to think it does. That's where you've got to, again, build that muscle. And yeah, in the doing of that, you just become less harassed by all the shoulds and all the rest of it because you're curious. And then somebody says something, you think, oh, that's really interesting, and then you can say, I'm really bad at that. Those words have actually come out of your mouth, oh, I'm really bad at that. But not inside your head way. I'm really bad at that. God, they're really good at it's. Like, oh, yeah, I'm really bad at that. Tell me more about it. Completely different sensation.
[28:20] Katie: Essentially what I feel that you're saying is if we're curious and really present, that automatically sort of gets rid of a lot of these inner thoughts and doubts and scarcity mindset, which I love because it's tying back to mindfulness and being present. And curiosity, I think, is such an underestimated superpower, both in terms of building relationships and in learning and in growth and in everything. So I love this concept of curiosity mindset. So next time I find myself switching between scarcity and abundance, I can be like, Wait, why I put these first sight? What is my curiosity saying? Because if it comes from a place of curiosity. It's so different.
[28:57] Trisha: Which is why I just to mention the book that's on the show, which is why I think this character that I invented, Investigator Lewis, it might just seem like a bit of a laugh, but actually, again, there's a really good point behind this, because what does an investigator do? They ask lots of questions. They're really curious. It's the detective mindset that I think is a real it just brings so much more joy. And the word joy is something that I've heard people in workshops that I've done. I say, how would you feel? I gave them three choices assertive, joy, or can't remember what the third one was. Now, in terms of if they were less squashed. And joy was the one that always got the highest amount of people with a thumbs up on joy. And it's not a word that's used very often, actually, but it sounds a bit old fashioned, doesn't it? But it's rather lovely.
[30:01] Katie: It's a lovely word. And I think this is so beautiful because we're 30 minutes on the dot and we looped round back to your book and back to the detective in a totally organic way. It wasn't planned, so I love it when it feels like a loop around. That's what novels do. Is that what book do? So thank you so much for all of your insights. I found it fascinating. I loved our conversation and I'm sure the listeners will, too. Thank you for being on the show.
[30:24] Trisha: A pleasure.
[30:24] Katie: Kay Issue thank you for listening to the Focus B show. We would love to hear your feedback. Let us know in a review how this episode inspired you. Keep buzzing.