[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddart here, aka the Focus B, and on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:36] Katie: It is a huge honor to have Beatrice chestner on the show today. Beatrice is one of the leading experts in the world on the Enneagram. She has been in this field for 30 years, three decades of teaching the enneagram, coaching people with the enneagram, and using it as a tool for self development and spiritual growth. She's also the author of several books, including The Complete Enneagram 27 Paths to Greater Self Awareness, where she goes into depth of the different Enneagram subtypes. I'm so excited to have her on the show today. For those of you listening or tuning in, this will be a podcast episode with some expertise needed or some knowledge of the enneagram needed to fully understand this conversation. So if you're new to the Enneagram, I invite you to check out the episode 201 that I did with NIN Wong to give you some ideas beforehand so that you can get the most out of this conversation. So excited to have Beatrice Chestnut here today. Wonderful to have you on the show today, Beatrice. Thank you so much for joining.
[01:52] Beatrice: Very good to be here. Thank you for inviting me.
[01:55] Katie: As I was reflecting today on which direction to go, I kept thinking about the fact that the enneagram is not only a tool for self development, but also for spiritual growth. And this is something that when I'm talking with people and I try to explain, I generally struggle to explain why the enneagram isn't just personality type like Maya Briggs or Disc, and not just personal development, but actually can really lead us down a spiritual journey. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on how the Enneagram is a spiritual tool.
[02:28] Beatrice: Okay, so I think the enneagram is very much a symbol of transformation, and it's connected to ancient spiritual traditions that address very directly about sort of the state of humanity when we're in a human existence, that we come into kind of a relatively low level of awareness over what's possible in the universe. And the Enneagram, even when you're thinking about it in terms of personality type and self development, what it's really all about is understanding the sort of human defensive patterns that we come to identify with. And each personality is kind of a constellation of patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving and motivations, many of which are unconscious but based on survival. And so it's kind of like we develop a personality because we need it to survive childhood and to grow to adulthood, to protect our psyche from pain and injury, and to develop a way of being functional in the world. But then when we reach adulthood, it's kind of like the personality has done its job of helping us grow and be functional in the world and relatively healthy. But the personality does represent a relatively low level of awareness that we as humans are also capable of rising above. So it's the idea that by learning what our personality patterns are and becoming conscious of them, we have the possibility of growing beyond our personality. And that is sort of breaking out of these unconscious patterns and habits that in adulthood can actually limit us and keep us at a not very conscious state. That's really more about survival and protecting our ego self image than it is about reaching our higher potential. So it's the idea that there's a great saying I like that the human being is the rope and the tug of war between the animal and the angel. So we are divine spirit beings. Having a human experience and having the human experience means we come to identify with a personality and think that's who we are or think that's all of who we are. But the good news is we're much more than that. But we need to do the work to become consciously aware of our personality and gradually disidentify from it or let it go, which isn't easy because the personality becomes really comfortable and familiar and it's the source of sort of our sense of safety in the world in many ways. And so we kind of have to work against that and give that up. But the reward is being able to go to a much higher level of spiritual consciousness. So the Enneagram is both a psychological and a spiritual tool. But it's sort of like we do the psychological work first to become aware of our unconscious and our unconscious patterns and the constellation of defenses that our personality represents so that we can then manifest the divine in know which is also part of what we are as humans.
[06:15] Katie: That's so beautifully explained. Now I'll know what to reference every time people ask me why it's also a spiritual tool. And it also reminds me when I was at the conference last year in Stockholm last April that I really loved it took the enneagram to a whole new level. And I remember that one of my core learning was we need to know our personality so that we can surpass it. So not cling to, hey, I'm type one, three, seven, what have you, but actually identify so that we can let go of it. And this is also something I read in one of your articles where you said, okay, it's one thing to be able to type each other in ourselves. It's something else to actually do that work.
[06:59] Beatrice: Exactly. The Buddhists have a nice saying that I like it. You have to have a self to lose a self.
[07:07] Katie: Yes, that's nice. And see, it so I'm curious, you do a lot of workshops and training and teaching in this field for many years. What would you say are sort of like the key steps that help people on their enneagram journey and self development journey from the basic level of self awareness once they've sort of identified their type and some of their main triggers and fixations to actually really tapping into that divine and letting go of that personality. What would you say are the course steps to go through that transformation?
[07:42] Beatrice: That's a very good question and I think the main thing is that we conceive of it as something that's not easy. I think the steps of this path are often something that we can understand as being equal to the archetypal hero's journey. So where the hero kind of in myth and story and literature kind of goes out into the world and has tests and trials and has to meet the monster and go through all this. And to some degree that's kind of how it is. In some ways we need to have a kind of courageous attitude of really studying ourselves, really observing ourselves and being really honest with ourselves about what we're doing, why we're doing it, where our motivations are coming from. And really in some ways in the inner work we do, we often say the beginning of the path has to do with befriending the ego, sort of getting to know it, seeing what its patterns are and not going too much against it. Because at the beginning of the journey the ego is more powerful than the higher self, right? And so we almost need to negotiate with the ego at first of like okay, I want to grow, I want to break out of some of these patterns. But the ego again thinks it's protecting us and the personality. So at first it's befriending the ego. But at a certain point in the path we need to confront the ego more. We need to sort of do things that are more challenging. So sometimes we talk about the steps on the path having to do with like going to psychotherapy and talking to someone as a way of not only observing ourselves but being witnessed in that and talking through what we see ourselves doing and getting feedback about that. Because one of the crucial steps on the path is seeing and owning the shadow, which might be framed as seeing our blind spots. But even more than that and part of seeing the shadow has to do with healing any traumas that we may have had like working through our issues with our parents and our family of origin and any kind of limitations that we place on ourselves in just trying to survive so that we can go beyond that. Because often what our personality is designed to do is keep us from feeling pain. And so at a certain point in the journey we need to engage in what a lot of the spiritual traditions say, engage in conscious suffering. So you need to go back and look at your traumas and look at your wounds and feel the pain of them. Because if you don't, the personality still has a reason for existing, right? If you go to your wounds and traumas and your shadows and your blind spots and you kind of have this courageous attitude, I'm going to feel the pain of this. I'm going to acknowledge to myself what I'm really doing and why, which can be hard sometimes because the personality wants to just kind of put a happy face on things and not feel any pain, and that's its job. But you kind of have to be a little bit relentless with yourself of saying in order to grow, in order to do the inner work, to really go to a higher level of awareness, I need to sort of do a ruthless examination of my personality and my past and my motives and my intentions and my shadows, and integrate that so that I can become more whole and accept parts of myself even that I thought were unacceptable. Because it's in wholeness and in that courageous openness to confronting ourselves that the personality really loses its reason for being and we're able to kind of break out of that persona.
[11:50] Katie: Yes, that makes total sense. And I also love the way you described. First we need to befriend the ego and then we need to confront it. And also what you were saying about going back into that pain. I know that at one point I was working on one of my fears and then I relived it as a five year old with just this small incident at school, a girl not believing me. There's some things that seem so minute, intellectually and rationally speaking, I would never have classified as a trauma relived it, just cried for sort of five minutes and then it was all gone. It was the strangest experience because since then, that fear has left. The trauma that I didn't even see as a trauma was healed. And it's exactly that going back, whether it's through psychotherapy or in a reflection or what have you, and then reliving it and it melts away. It was a very strange transcendence experience, especially the crime, because it wasn't something that upset me now, but it was as if I relived it, finished processing it, and then after the tears, I wasn't upset at all. It was very cathartic.
[12:54] Beatrice: Yes, it's a lot like that. And sometimes we have sort of big, obvious traumas and sometimes there are small things like that, something that sort of stuck with you for a particular reason because it maybe told you something about the world that you thought wasn't true or hurt you in a particular way. I think that's a really good example. If you kind of go back there and feel the pain of it often and get some information about what happened and why you experienced the way experienced it the way you did often. That's enough to kind of remove that as an obstacle to moving beyond your personality.
[13:34] Katie: Yes, which is amazing. And I'd love to come back to what you were saying about befriending the ego, because this is one of the questions I thought about for today, which is that as I was doing my own inner enneagram in a journey. What happened was at one point and I'm sure this has happened either to you or to some of your students, or maybe all of them, which is at some point, I started to realize that everything was a caricature of my type. So I'd start to notice both my hobbies, my way of talking, dressing, just everything seemed like such a caricature. And sometimes it made me laugh, sometimes smile, sometimes I'd sigh and look up and see it. But also I noticed it sometimes led to this self negation, like, really this idea of I just don't want to be just this personality anymore. I want to step out of it. But in everything I do, it just comes out. It comes out. And I realized that it led to the opposite of self compassion. And even more so when I started to see that it was a caricature of my type in stress, in the disintegration. And then I thought, oh, I really see how this is just a caricature of this personality. So what I'm wondering is in this step of befriending but let's say between the befriending and starting to confront the ego, once we've done a lot of inner work, how can we continue the self compassion when we notice what I call caricatures, but maybe have other words for it? Obvious sides of our personality that we don't necessarily want to have in our life anymore?
[15:09] Beatrice: Yeah, I think the question is really important because I think a big part of making progress on the path of self development has to do with self acceptance and compassion. Because the minute we start criticizing ourselves or judging ourselves for something in a way that sort of is part of what keeps us at a low level of awareness because now I'm criticizing myself and now my ego has to go into defense mode, this time against me. And so compassion, I think, is absolutely crucial. Every step on the path, whether we're sort of befriending the ego or confronting the ego, we need to. And that's why there are sort of things I tell myself all the time to try to get myself to stay in that state of compassion toward myself. Things like you're only human. Because as a two, I try to be superhuman sometimes. And I criticize myself for things that are just normal, which I think a lot of us do. So if I notice myself criticizing myself lately recently I kind of started doing some different inner work tasks, and I noticed it was really hard for me to do them. And I was sort of failing, and I had to really sort of talk to myself internally and say, look, I'm never going to make progress if I don't give myself some room to not do it right on the way. Learning to have more discipline. And so really, I think a big message that we talk about when we teach the enneagram is to always part of the self observation is catching yourself in the act of being self critical and trying to let that go. Because that's just something that keeps us down, and it's not something that in any way lifts us up.
[16:58] Katie: Yes. And I 200% agree. I mean, in my coaching in general, I just see there's a need for self compassion everywhere, all the time. And I've noticed that both more presence so obviously with the meditation practice and just reminding ourselves to be present and then more self compassion, I think can solve pretty much anything. Things like people struggling to focus or manage their energy or stress or leadership, all of these things. If we're really present and we actually show compassion towards ourselves, all the things sort of be solved. Okay, I'd love to go in a sort of slightly different direction. I love this about befriending the ego and then also the self compassion and the different steps of transformation. But I was also really curious because you've been in this field for three decades, which is just amazing. So congratulations on all your work and it's just so wonderful to contribute as an expert in a field so in depth. I'd love to know what changes have you seen over the years? Because that's a lot of years. What are some of the evolutions and changes that you've seen with the Enneagram during this time?
[18:06] Beatrice: Another good question. I would say that I've seen the Enneagram get more global and more globally united. People from all different countries getting together in regional conferences and the global conference. And I think online courses have helped people to we have people from all over the place, even sometimes calling in in the middle of the night from New Zealand in our courses. So that's a big difference. A big turning point for me was in 2004 when I learned what I call the sort of more later version of the subtypes from Claudio Naranjo. I thought that really revolutionized my understanding of myself and the Enneagram. It's like it added a whole new layer of specificity. I think not everyone in the Enneagram community has taken up that same approach. So I think that there still remains some, I think, confusions around different areas of theory that I had hoped would maybe get worked out. But I just think the Enneagram, unfortunately well, I come from academics where we all kind of work together to advance the knowledge. Academics aren't perfect, of course, so I think people are still kind of each doing their own theme. There are sort of different schools of thought, but I guess I would have hoped that it would have evolved beyond that a little bit, where the community would have come together a little bit more in terms of theory and practice. But I think the Enneagram has definitely grown in popularity. A lot of young people really interested in it. I think that's a really great thing in some ways, and everything has its upside and downside. The upside is you mentioned the Enneagram almost anywhere now and people know it, which is surprising. But then the downside is, of course, that a lot of times it gets out there in superficial forms or incomplete forms, and so there can be as much confusion about it as there is light. But I think overall it's nice to see people as time goes by, seeing the value of it very quickly and seeing how accurate it is and powerful it is, and responding to that. I think it's done a lot of good, even despite the fact that you see it in instagram memes and some superficial renderings at the same time. I think a lot of people have come to self development through the gateway of the Enneagram. So I think it's affected a lot of people over time and it's more known. So I think that's really good.
[21:04] Katie: Yes. And I remember during the conference last year, the whole conversations around the subtypes first thought it was fascinating. And it's true that we won't go into depth over this, of course. And for people who want to know more, they can check your website, Beatricecheson.com, and find out a bit more about the different subtypes or read your book that I mentioned in the introduction. It's true that the subtypes make a big difference is what I was going to say. And I remember, especially during the conference, being on a panel, people of my type and different subtypes and noticing that that makes a huge difference. That also makes it quite a strong barrier of entry for people who start with the Enneagram or any people are surprised that I know nine types and well, pretty obvious when you're in it, it's like you breathe them. But then on top of that, having the three subcategories and wings, of course, which also make a huge difference. So yes, interesting to see that. Hopefully the Enneagram community will gain more insight on this. Which leads me to my next question, which is, where do you see the Enneagram going? What do you feel in the next step, the next discoveries? What do you want to start to see and feel in the Enneagram world?
[22:20] Beatrice: That's a good question. I guess I would like to see more people working together and collaborating to do really high quality, enneagram work to talk about what are the best theories that really help people grow and what are some aspects of theory. That are sort of just more people have as hobbies that just don't go very deep and just naming them as such in a clearer way. I don't think there's anything wrong with some of the more superficial treatments, but sometimes there can be confusion and it can be hard for people to discern. So I think just more people. And of course, there's a marketplace of ideas out there, and so I think in some ways the good ideas Rise to the top, but more serious, in depth Enneagram treatment. Sometimes I'll see a book that I'm kind of excited about, and then I read it and it ends up being just more shallow than I hoped it would be. So I hope people are doing, even coming together with other people to really try to advance the field at the edges. I think that would be great, getting into integrating it into more different kinds of fields and understanding at a deep level. What is it, how does it act symbolically? How can it help us in clearer and clearer ways to really achieve that transformation that it's all about?
[23:48] Katie: Yes, all about the transformation. And since the moment in 2004 where you had this knowledge or new learning around the subtypes, what has been some of the other maybe major moments where you suddenly had great insights into the Enneagram?
[24:08] Beatrice: Well, one thing that's been a great learning for me is in the last five or six years, as you know, I started working with Uranio Pais, my friend from Brazil, who now lives in London. And he had been doing a lot of I knew him when we were on the IEA Board of Directors in 2004 to 2009. And he was a business guy. He was an enneagram. He did a lot of work with the Enneagram in businesses as a consultant and a coach. But then when we kind of reconnected in 2013, I learned that he had been doing a lot of spiritual work and that he was even starting to work with people in different ways that were more psychospiritual. We've worked together Very closely in the last five years, and I've Learned A Lot From him about the spiritual development aspects of the Enneagram. He spent years in a Gurjeefian school, kind of training. He spent years in following a Sufi path and Another path, a third path. And so he brought a lot of deeper understanding of that spiritual level and what it takes to sort of move the needle and raise our consciousness. So I learned a lot from him that I didn't know before. I had known about Gurdjieff, but I hadn't really lived in a school and really trained at that deeper level. So I've learned A lot from him about what the Enneagram is about as a symbol of spiritual transformation in very practical, experiential ways, like seeing people do the work facilitated by us, where they really have Big breakthroughs and things that sort of working with the Enneagram can bring about real shifts.
[26:07] Katie: And so would you say think about Gurjevt and Naranhor? Was Naranho more psychotherapy oriented and Gulhiev more spiritual? I mean, this is what I'm hearing. Is that correct in my assumptions? Would you say that's the main difference.
[26:20] Beatrice: Burjiff was really more of I would even call him a he was a lot of things. He's a very interesting character, but what we know from him is a lot of the spiritual significance of the Enneagram symbol and sort of a lot of teachings connected to it around what it takes to transform and nuranjo, I would say, is a more modern figure. Not so much a mystic as an American trained psychiatrist, but also a big figure in the human potential movement. So Narano I see as really the seminal author of the Enneagram work that we use today in much of the world. He really sort of took the knowledge from Oscar Achazo that he learned and refined it, and it translated it a bit into American or Western psychology and worked with Fritz Pearls to develop gestalt theory and did a lot of work kind of bringing together sort of psychological development with the Enneagram. But of course, the thing about him is he knew a lot about spiritual development and meditation. He knew a lot about music and history and art and literature. And so he expressed the Enneagram through many different ways. But I think he was the one who really kind of brought what Achazo rediscovered or brought forward and brought it out in a form that was more aligned with Western psychology and more comprehensible as the types that we use today and the subtypes of amazing.
[28:11] Katie: So, so interesting also to see the history. And I had no idea that Nahan Hall also worked on gestalt therapy. So that was also interesting. There's so many different things that I could also ask you, but we're already at the end of today's episode. What would you like to tell the listeners? Maybe your last thoughts, your last notes overall during our conversation? What would you like to leave them with?
[28:39] Beatrice: Just, I guess, a hope that they get interested in the Enneagram and get inspired to use it to have a deeper sense of what it means to grow and what the possibilities are. I mean, the possibilities are really amazing, but it does take work. It does take really seeing what your personality is all about and having compassion for yourself, to not take that as something to criticize yourself with, but something that you learn to observe non judgmentally in order to move beyond, in order to manifest more of the high side or the higher potential. And I think when we're all doing our inner work, that's what really changes the world. And I keep being sort of discouraged these days about how much lower consciousness there still is on the planet and how that creates wars and things like that. And I think the only way we can move beyond some of these real crises in our world today is by each of us doing the hard work of really confronting ourselves and the ego in us. And so the more we do that, the more it changes the collective. And so I hope people are interested and get inspired to really use a lot of the enneagram information as a springboard for their own development.
[30:19] Katie: Absolutely. 200% on that. Yes. Idiogram wonderful tool for our own spiritual growth, personal development, and like you say, to raise consciousness, as you explained in one of your articles, in collaboration with things like coaching, inner work, therapy. Just a tool for highlighting.
[30:41] Beatrice: Exactly.
[30:43] Katie: Amazing. Well, thank you so much. It has been such an honor, such a pleasure. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Beatrice.
[30:49] Beatrice: Thank you, Katie. Thank you for having me and for your great questions. Thank you.
[30:57] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Bee show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.