[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:41] Katie: I'm thrilled to have John Puss on the show today. John began his career working at Google and he's now global facilitator and speaker in the areas of conscious leadership and human potential. Fantastic to have you on the show today, John. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:58] John: Thank you, Katie. It's lovely to reconnect through this way as well. And I'm very curious where the conversation will take us.
[01:06] Katie: Yes, I'm here. I mean, we met on the training for Make Time, so we're both passionate about making time for what matters in our life. And I think this is a really nice transition with what I'd love the key topic for today to be, which is how we can create more purpose and meaning in our work. So this is something you've been focusing on more recently, right?
[01:28] John: Yes, that's right. I've been busy launching a program which is all about how to live a life and career of purpose and meaning. And I've actually this week completed the first cohort of that. We had ten people that dived in and I'm still feeling really energized and grateful for all the beautiful things that happened, all the insights, all the feedback I've got so far. So it feels like a very alive topic for sure.
[01:57] Katie: Amazing. So it's also top of mind. I think it's so important because I often feel, especially when you have your own business, that this is something that really carries you and really gives you that impulse and energy. So if you lose that purpose and meaning, then there's no drive and there's nothing left. So I'd be very curious to know what have you seen are some of the key ingredients that contribute to this feeling of meaning and purpose?
[02:26] John: Yeah, great start. So one of the key ingredients that I've seen is actually unfortunately missing in a lot of the purpose related programs that I've seen over the years is that a lot of it focused on what I call horizontal development, which means there is a lot of amazing tools and frameworks and practices out there. But a lot of the program just pour more and more of those tools, practices, frameworks into people's minds, into people's cup as I like to use it. However, our cup size, our mind capacity is limited. So there's only so much that we can actually take in and then integrate into our lives. And the main missing ingredient is vertical development, which is not about pouring more into the cup, but about making the cup bigger. So it's actually helping people to create enough capacity and control over their attention so they can actually integrate and take in more and also bring it into sustainable behavioral change in their lives. Not just as something nice that inspires and sparks and then they go into their old scripts and patterns and stories, but actually something that lasts, that creates enough sustainable change that they are starting to actually move closer to a career and a life that feels meaningful and purposeful.
[03:49] Katie: I love this idea of horizontal and vertical. I'd love it if you could explain it again because I'm trying to visualize so horizontal is just the amount of information we get and vertical is how it translates into behavior. I'm just trying to see if I've understood what you mean.
[04:06] John: I would say horizontal is around learning more information, tools, frameworks, basically reading about them or hearing about them through voice or audio and basically taking that in. And then vertical is actually training our mind to become more spacious, to have less noise and busyness and clutter which often actually creates a lot of fog and distractions of actually really working with all those amazing things we learn. So I actually bring in a lot of the practices and wisdom from the Search Inside Yourself program that I'm certified in where we train people's attention because we see that around 50% of the time our minds are wandering so we don't decide what we give our attention. So with this attention training gradually over time we can move that to like 40, 30, 20%. So we have a bigger part of our day where we can actually consciously choose what we give our limited time and energy and therefore also choose to engage and bring into practice and into our life all these things that we're learning rather than getting constantly hijacked and distracted again by all the things happening all the time. So yeah, it's really deepening that cup, deepening that capacity to really have those things stick and change. That's how I'm seeing it.
[05:30] Katie: Yes, I love this concept and it's really linked to attention and focus which are obviously topics that I'm also passionate about. And I'm curious then in order to have more of this vertical and more of this absorbing and enabling these changes, do we need to then reduce the input? So I'm thinking of for example, listeners listening to this podcast, then they need to listen to maybe a few other podcasts but then actually implement more from this podcast as an example.
[06:01] John: Yeah, that's a great question. Actually, as I've told you, I've been wanting to start my podcast so I haven't really given thought how to make podcasts most effective. I guess it depends. Some of the podcasts I listen to are really just because I always just feel energized and more happy after listening to certain people. So I just come for the spark, the inspiration, the opening, the aliveness and yeah, other things I do are more for me to actually really make notes, mindfully. See, like, this is something I want to try and work with. So I think podcasts maybe for me are more a place of inspiration. But for example, courses like the cohort based course I did over the last few weeks, I love to take people through a number of modules and actually give them practices, homework, so to speak, to practice between the sessions, so they get to actually see how it is to bring that into their life, into their work. And this is where it gets real, because this is where we can start interrupting the old scripts and programs that often keep us running on autopilot in some ways with those new intentional choices around how we spend our time and energy, what things we do. So I think the longer you have with people, the easier it is to bring this into practice.
[07:25] Katie: So the link between intention and attention then is directly related with purpose and meaning because let's go back to that original topic. So you're talking a lot about how this helps us to work and live more intentionally, how it helps us to manage our attention, and how does all of this contribute to greater meaning on an everyday perspective?
[07:49] John: Yeah, that brings me to the other ingredient, which is that often I feel purpose and meaning is something that we create as a bigger long term goal. And we feel that once we finally arrive there, it's going to be great, it's going to be amazing, life is going to just be full of unicorns and butterflies. But what I love is really bringing it back to the present, to the here and now, and looking at your life and the way how you spend your time and energy right now. And that's only possible if we bring attention and look at it and bring intention really intensely. Starting to choose every day. What can I let go of that doesn't serve me, that doesn't feel alive, that doesn't feel true to me? And what can I give more of my attention? Where can I be more intentional about choosing the people I spent my time with, the places I hang around with, the activities I engage in, the habits I cultivate? So I think that's where purpose starts, not in sort of working towards a long term goal. Of course there's a place for visualizing a desired future. This is very, very helpful. Gives us a North Star, but we also need to be able to let go of it, detach and really focus on every day, every week, making the shifts towards more aliveness, more meaning, more purpose with that attention, with that intentionality. And I feel that from that place, the rest will start crystallizing gradually.
[09:15] Katie: What would you say to someone that doesn't have that clarity? Because I think that this is made easy once we know a bit more what we want to focus on, once that intention is clear, then we can work on our attention, things like single tasking and then that gives greater meaning. But what if someone is just not clear how they want to spend their time? What would you recommend to them for them to gain that clarity?
[09:42] John: Yeah, so one thing I use in my program is journaling and one of the ways that it's helped me a lot and that I also keep getting feedback from my students is to ask yourself in the evening what are the main things that really energized me today? And what are the main things that really drained me today? And if you keep doing that for a number of days, for a number of weeks, at some point you start seeing patterns of the typical things that keep somehow being a part of your day of your week, but they actually leave you feeling less happy and more drained. And this is where more and more clarity starts coming of ha I start feeling more now what I want to start letting go of. It doesn't always mean it's so easy because maybe we have certain commitments, we might have to have a difficult conversations, we might have to develop the skills of setting boundaries and becoming better at saying no to things, which is also a scary thing for many of us. But the clarity will start growing as we keep building that awareness every day around what works, what doesn't work. And this is also where the body comes in a lot. So I think the more we cultivate awareness and also awareness of the body, the more we start getting the feedback from the body. When something opens us, brings aliveness, feels energetic in our bodies, or when something feels contracting, feels draining sluggish and this almost becomes like a decision support tool that gives us information and clarity. What's needed next?
[11:18] Katie: Yes. I love this. Both the journaling and the body pop because they're so true, the journaling. I remember when I first held the Five Minute Gratitude Journal, when I reread through it pretty much every day, I was grateful for the interactions I had. So I was grateful for having a tea with this friend or having a coaching session with this person or going to my guitar lesson. I read through pages and pages and it was always the people I'd seen, sometimes the sunshine and sometimes the sports activity pretty much every day. So it's so true. You get to really see what do you enjoy, what gives you that energy, what gives you that meaning. And then the body part, it's something that helps so much once you're able, like you said, to have this as a compass and once you're able to really feel it. And sometimes I feel it so quickly that I can't stay in a room or in a certain location because instantly my whole body contracts a cafe place or a restaurant. Sometimes I just doesn't feel right and I need to leave or on the contrary, I arrive somewhere and it's like my whole body opens up. You just feel so calm and present and well and what would you recommend for people who haven't yet developed such a body awareness to get more in tune with themselves and to help them to pick up on this?
[12:40] John: Yeah, beautiful question. I love also what you said around gratitude. That's actually something I include in that evening journaling because it's also around shifting our mindset from focusing all the things that don't work, which then becomes our reality. A lot of victimhood, a lot of complaint, a lot of unhappiness with life. Whereas if we practice gratitude, like you said, we shift it more towards what is working well and sort of counting our blessings and all the things that are going well. And this is also part of how we are shifting our reality and experiencing therefore more meaning and joy every day. Yeah, definitely. The process of tapping more into that wisdom is not always easy. Growing up in a western part of the world where a lot of our focus goes on to cultivating our mind, our cognitive rational capacities, which again are incredibly beautiful and make us able to build incredible things and make progress as humans. And yet if the balance is off with also being here, then we get into trouble and we start overriding things like even what you say sometimes I might be in a cafe and I might feel like this is not the place I want to be. My body is sending all the signals, but my mind is still so strong that it overrides it and said, yes, but if I spend time here, I'm going to network. I'm going to meet the right people. So I'm going to just have to suffer through for one more year until I meet that one contact that is going to make my life amazing. And this is just an extreme story, but we do that on a daily basis in more subtle ways all the time. So yeah, really becoming aware of all the different stories and scripts that are running, that are overriding the wisdom of the body is a way to start getting a chance to not give into those too quickly, but to stay curious and drop in deeper. What's behind that limited story that I'm running all the time? So I do still feel that cultivating our awareness through, for example, very simple mindfulness exercises, like following a fixed object, which could be the breath, it could be a sound, it could be a sensation in the body. And just staying there and every time your mind wanders, to bring it back to that place is like training a muscle. Attention wonders, we bring it back. Tension wonders there, we bring it back. And by doing that, we'll also notice whenever our attention is going to that mind that tries to override the wisdom of the body and we bring it back to the body and we ask ourselves, what is really important now? What's my body telling me? And then we just feel and we let intuitively the answer come. And yeah, the final thing about that, that I'll say is it really helps to remove a lot of the noise and distraction and busyness that's around us all the day. Whether it's notifications in your phone, whether it's looking into your email all the time, whether it's surrounding yourself with a lot of busy loud sounds, noises, people, places, whether it's reading the news all the time, all of that just fills up our head with a lot of noise and clutter. And because of that, we don't see clearly anymore. So limiting all the impulses and stimuli leaves more space to feel yourself, to feel your body. And I think that's where a lot of potential lies.
[15:57] Katie: That's such a great point. And I know that shifting my way of behaving and thinking based more on my body and intuition compared to my mind has been so powerful and something that I've implemented a lot more in my coaching. So I know that when a client is hesitating between two options or where to live or which job to take, I just go straight to the body. I do two visualizations of both scenarios and then they open their eyes again. I say, sir? Which one? How did you feel? And every time, every time, right?
[16:33] John: Yeah. I love that. It's sometimes so simple, just indeed visualizing it and just sensing really, where am I, what am I smelling? What am I seeing? What people around me? How am I feeling? As I sort of imagine my life in this scenario A and then with scenario B, I actually literally did this exercise in the course. And every time they just know instantly, okay, wow, why was that so hard? And even better if we don't have to visualize it, but if we can actually taste it. So when I was deciding between signing up for a coaching program, when I was getting certified some years ago, I had a few options and I was spinning in my head, like, which one should I go for? Which one is going to make me really have the most aligned people and the most aligned content? I don't want to have fear of regrets, fear of missing out. You both know that as type sevens in the enneagram. So what I did, I just went on the phone with a few people that are facilitating the program and I just started going in conversation, asked a lot of questions, so how does it look? So what do we do in the first month? How does the second part look? And just feeling how it feels to be in that conversation. And when I did that with the three options, it was just obvious for me. I just felt so much more excitement and I was sort of having the next chat around this one and with the other ones. Oh yeah, I have also this one scheduled, but I already don't feel alive around this anymore. So it sort of makes the decisions for you.
[17:59] Katie: Yeah, I feel a lot of it comes down to self trust. So the ones we hear and get the signals for a specific decision that we trust it, it's when we start to question it with our mind that we get lost.
[18:13] John: It's a strong force.
[18:14] Katie: A strong force. So what tools do you have to stop that overthinking and tune back into our intuition? How do you help, for instance, your clients to stop being in their mind, stop overthinking all the time and tap back into their intuition and their body?
[18:33] John: So I feel another one. It's really a combination. So I think the journaling, the attention training are important pieces to it, but then also things like the body scan. So what I do often when I lay down, for example, when I wake up or before I go to bed, what I do is I just sense my body. I really put my attention on the different parts in my body. I scan it, so to speak, which firstly helps to calm the mind and helps me to fall asleep quicker. But it also helps me to feel what residue is there left from today? Is there certain parts that feel really tight? Is there certain parts that feel really open? And by doing this, I cultivate more connection with the body and I start feeling more what's needed to take care of some of the things in my life that are maybe contributing to that that doesn't feel right in my body. Whether it's certain tensions or contractions around a conversation that didn't really feel quite well, where there was still some tension in the air that I get intuitive impulses around, this is something I need to clear because otherwise I'll keep feeling a lot of tension in my body every time I'm around this person. Whether it's a specific thing I said yes to, but it actually feels like I've overwritten my boundary. It's not a yes and I feel something contracted around that. And the intuition sort of comes up as we just hang out with the sensations, the raw data in the body, which is an antidote to just overly spinning and analyzing and sometimes ruminating in our head. So, yeah, I would say doing that on a daily basis, laying down is a good moment to do this. But you could even do it the moment when you just take five to ten minutes break between two pieces of work that you're working on that day. Just to reconnect, feel yourself scan what is there and check in with what impulses are coming up, what that means.
[20:33] Katie: Yes, in general, I think the more attention we put on our body, whether it's as you said, body scan at the end of the day or pausing during the day and noticing if something is feeling off or tense, that can happen quite a bit. I think if we're procrastinating something, generally we feel it energetically in the body, that something isn't quite resolved. And I want to come back now to what we mentioned around Meaning and Purpose, because we spoke about intention and attention and also seeing what energizes you to help you to figure out where to place your intention. But this is quite individually driven and not contribution driven. And I feel that a great part of Meaning and Purpose is linked to how we impact or how we contribute. So how do you help people to tap into that and to find in which way they want to have an impact and contribute?
[21:27] John: Yeah, beautiful transition, because, indeed, it starts with that piece of putting your own oxygen mask on first, taking care of yourself, your energy, your awareness, your life. And from that place, as we become more equipped and more able to take on bigger responsibilities in life. What I love is the Ikigai model, which I'm sure you've heard of. Yeah. So this is also one thing we did in the program. We literally asked people to find their Ikigai, which is a 30 to 60 minutes exercise inspired by positive psychology. Martin Saligman is a big figure in that space, and he has spent the last 20 to 30 years figuring out all the different strategies that people use to find meaning, purpose, well being in their life. And he sort of found the things that work and the things that don't work. And he has found ikigai to be one of the core models, which, in a way, simplifies things, but really can give you some profound insights in how can you find that thing in your life or those things that you love, that you're good at, that also are valuable to the world and that also eventually can earn you money. So it's sustainable, so you can keep doing it without having to take on other jobs to be able to do it. So really listing the different things that you love, taking some time for that, the things that you're good at, the things that the world needs, and then what you can get paid for, and then starting to find the connecting dots within those columns is where you can start getting curious about what are you equipped with? What talents, what gifts, maybe unmanifested potential do you hold dormant that could start becoming a bigger and bigger part of your time, of your career. And, yeah, give you meaning and at the same time, give a lot of value to others, which is a loop back to you feeling even more meaning, so to speak.
[23:30] Katie: Yes, it's true that the Ikigai model can be very useful to that. I was thinking while you were explaining it that it's a bit like getting paid for your zone of genius, right? Because your zone of genius is what you love and what you're good at, excellent at, and then probably what the world needs. I think that's a valid point, but I have a feeling that in any field, the world probably needs it. It's hard for me to imagine someone's zone of genius, whether it's writing or teaching or acting or drawing or whatever it is, I feel the world probably needs it if you maybe formulate it or do it in a certain way, and then it's just a matter of getting paid for your zone of genius. Right, and you have ikigai.
[24:12] John: Yeah, exactly. And what always makes me sad is that when I do my workshops, for example, in companies, I work a lot with very innovative and forward thinking companies. And in the last three to four years, I've worked with over 5000 bright, ambitious individuals and leaders. And every time I ask the question, who of you has really paused and slowed down and taken time to understand your core values, only around three out of ten hands go up. So then I really ask myself, what are we doing with our life, with our time and energy, when most of us are firstly not even in touch with what's most important? What do we love, what do we value? Because that's the foundation to also find your ikigai. And as you say, there is plenty of opportunities to connect those gifts, those talents, that zone of genius to what the world needs. And it all starts with becoming more, again, intentional and conscious around who am I first? What am I here for? What are my gifts? What are my talents? So, yeah, that feels like a very important part. And what I wanted to add is what I see is therefore also that a lot of us have gotten good in certain skills, certain capacities that at some point we just chose because we have to choose on an early age, what career are we going for, what university direction are we choosing? And then we get really good at that. But it's not always connected to our heart. It's not always what we also love. So when we get like a later stage in our career and we've invested into this resume and to all these possibilities in this specific industry or type of work, and we notice that it's not giving us fulfillment anymore, then it's sometimes a scary leap to be able to, for example, consider letting go of that and reinventing yourself. Or reinventing another part of you that you haven't given so much of your attention. And this is often a scary piece that keeps people sort of stuck in the comfortable, in the known, but at the same time also keeps them away from really experiencing that purpose and meaning that we can, when we do, find that place where we're meant to serve.
[26:19] Katie: In a way, I can definitely relate to that leap from being an engineer and having studied my maths and physics and engineering background to making that leap into coaching. Absolutely. And you mentioned Seligman with the Ikigai. He also has a model called Parma, right?
[26:40] John: Yes.
[26:41] Katie: Maybe you can share a few words on that model.
[26:43] John: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I love perma because Burma is what I start with. Also in the course, we brought it in as sort of a higher level place to think about, hey, this is all the different ways that people have tried to find genuine fulfillment and joy and happiness in life. And these are the five factors that keep coming out as the ones that are most successful. And this is why perma is beautiful. And then from perma, you can take it deeper into the topic of meaning and purpose, but it's more than that. So perma is firstly stands for positive emotion. That's the B, which is all around experiencing peace, gratitude, joy, happiness as much as possible in your life. And a lot of that has to do, I feel, with gratitude because we shift our attention to all the things that are going well that we say thank you to. And that becomes, as Yoda said, your reality. Your focus is your reality, Master Yoda, a lot of wisdom in Star Wars rather than our focus going on to all the things that aren't working so right. Positive emotion. The second piece is engagement, feeling that we can really put our strengths to use for something that takes our full engagement, where the peak form of that is a state of flow, which is when time seems to pass by, we are completely immersed in something. It feels effortless, it feels natural. And our level of skill is matching the level of challenge. So it's not that it's too hard, which creates anxiety. It doesn't mean that it's too easy, because then it creates boredom, but it's just that right mix. And many people can experience flow in many different ways, but that's something we want to have a lot in our life. Then the R stands for relationships, right? That seems like an obvious one. We're social beings. We need to feel surrounded by people that want the best for us, that respect us, that love us, not just when times are going well to celebrate this with, but also that we can rely on when times are not going well. And a big missing link often is that we have a very individualistic society where we tend to rely a lot on ourselves, where we feel too vulnerable for ask for help. So a lot of the practice is also to really let in and ask for support from those people around us. So that's a big one that you can elaborate on for hours, but keep it concise. The M stands for meaning, and meaning is really if you connect it back to Ikigai, the place where we can sense that what we are doing is for something. Greater than ourselves. It genuinely serves others, serves nature, serves certain social causes, climate change, wherever we feel called to bring our contribution. Feeling that it's genuinely adding to the goodness of that, leaving it behind in a better place than we found it. And that's in the end giving us more meaning because yeah, that's what it's basically it's the razon dead, the reason for existence, finding your place in that. And then aid achievements, which is something we also seem to need. Feeling that we are making progress, we're achieving greatness. This has motivated the human race for many, many centuries. Seeing that we are able to solve complex challenges, extend human life, prevent children dying from unnecessary reasons, travel to Mars for our bigger ambitious goals. And feeling that we are really moving ahead and getting the most out of ourselves seems to be another part that really contributes to that picture of a fulfilled and meaningful life.
[30:17] Katie: Yes, I love the Perma model because it really englobes both the individual side of positive emotions and engagement and then also the contribution side with relationships which is sort of both ways and meaning. And then achievements. I don't know, I think it's important, it's good to have goals but as a hyper hyperachiever that's tried to mellow down achievements and focus more on inner peace or good relationships and meaning. I still get a kick out of achievements but I try not to overvalue them too much because an achievement is just an achievement. Sometimes I feel it's a bit like a material possession. You desperately want it and then when you have it, you're like now what do I get next? Right. So I'm not sure. I think I could stop at Palm and the A would be included in the M, I think.
[31:11] John: Yeah, I hear you. Exactly. Achievement is definitely something that's a little distorted in our current society because we are so being pushed to achieve, to get good grades, to be the best in the class. So with achievement we have to be a little bit careful, especially for those of us that have the inclination towards really going for it in an excessive unhealthy manner. Which for example, using the enneagram can happen a lot to type trees. And I also recognize the tree in me which partially is maybe my nurture but also partially nature, all the influence of society around me. And this is where actually we need to be aware, where it's out of balance. Where are we excessively driven by just showing the world our achievements rather than just having more space and peace and celebrate our human beings, love ourselves for who we are and not feel like we have to just be in our human doing and only feel that we're lovable when we do and achieve great things. Great.
[32:12] Katie: Exactly. So the meaning doesn't just come through achievements but just from being and then making the most of our energy and our attention towards what is meaningful, I feel. This was such an amazing episode. John, it has been fantastic to have you on the show. Loved everything we've covered from Meaning and then we dived a bit into the Ikigai and Palma. Where can people find you if they want to get in touch with you?
[32:39] John: Yeah. Thank you so much. Wow. I'm also feeling so much energy and aliveness, and I really feel, like, even more motivated to get that podcast running because it's just a great excuse to have some amazing conversation with amazing people like yourself, inspire each other, and maybe also help others that listen to it, get some more inspiration and sparks about what they want to move in next. So thank you, firstly a lot for having me where people can find me. So I have a website called TrueYou CC. So helping people to discover the most true version of themselves is basically the idea. That's a big part of what my mission is and helping people to stay true to themselves. That's why it's TrueYou. CC and this is where people can find different ways that I work with them. Whether it's through the longer purpose program that I run through Maven, whether it's through my Master Your Mind course, which is all about building that vertical development and really tapping into that higher level of attention and intention instead of just running around on autopilot and getting distracted all the time, or whether it's through my in person retreat. I started doing more with retreats as well, where we can go a little deeper because we spend a few days and, yeah, there's information on the website about those and they can also contact me, they can write me. I'm also available on LinkedIn, especially when people are interested in some of my work with corporates, with startups. I work a lot with innovative and forward thinking companies, helping them become more human centered, more purpose driven, more connected. And, yeah, I love facilitating programs and keynotes there as well. So if anyone feels inspired to have some of that coming to their teams or their organization, I would love to talk. So, yeah, that's it.
[34:32] Katie: Thank you. Thank you so much, john, thanks again for being on the show today.
[34:36] John: Thank you, Katie. Speak to you soon.
[34:43] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be Show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.