[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:36] Katie: It's a real pleasure to have today on the show Thomas Anderson. Thomas is a Swedish entrepreneur, change manager and coach. An inspirational speaker, he is the author of the book The Vulnerable Man, where he explains how we can reconnect with ourselves and master our emotions. Wonderful to have you on the show today, Thomas. Thank you so much for joining.
[01:01] Thomas: Thank you so much for having me.
[01:03] Katie: It's a real pleasure. And I've been reading your book. I have it here. The vulnerable man. And I find vulnerability to be such a fascinating, love, you know, Brittany Brown's approach, but it's nice to also see your perspective on it. So I know that for you this was a few years back, but looking back to that period of your life where you were sort of going through burnout, what do you feel really helped you and really saved you to get back on track and to be good again?
[01:34] Thomas: Yeah, I think this was, I think in the summer of, let's see, 2015, I think when I sort of felt like, overwhelmed, it was like, I don't know what to do. And I felt like I didn't have it felt like it didn't matter what I did at work, at home, it was never enough. And I felt sort of, what's the point? I didn't know what to do. It was sort of overwhelmed and I just felt depressed. And I think that was sort of like, this is not the way it should be. There's something wrong. And I think that was sort of a wake up call. And I started just mentioning to a friend and he's like, well, Thomas, you're just playing a lot of different roles as well. It's like oh, am I? And then I started talking to another friend, like, you need to sort of cut down on work because you're doing a lot of things. And maybe it sounds simple, but I think I remember one key thing that one friend said to me, but I don't know how to say no at work. And she said, well, if you do many different kind of things. And maybe you should say, I can only focus on three customers because at that time I was a key account manager and say, that's enough. Because you say, I want to focus on these three customers because I want to do a good job and I want to have good quality, and that's why it's enough. And then I got a question. Can you do this as well? And then I can say no. I have these three customers, I want to focus with on time and with quality. If I add on more, I will lose my quality. And for me, like, for now, maybe it sounds very simple, but for me, that was sort of a help, because she said, what happens if you take on 7610 projects or ten customers and you will fail? And then the manager will come to you and say, you failed here. This was not really good. This is not good quality. Well, you know, it was too much. Why didn't you say that before? Would be questioned. So that was sort of these, I think, those things that I needed to hear. And it was also a feeling of me, like, not being enough. And I think I was at an event, and I had a friend I hang out with for a couple of times, or a couple that I hang out with, and then they sort of told me that just like, Thomas, you're a good person. And that comment from people at that time was like, they like me. For me, it was not what I did at work or did kind of things. They just liked me. And I just felt I need to change. So that was sort of my start, and I think also my starting point there was, like, to say, I need to know that my body needs to heal. I just done a work, and I sort of more exercise. I started to go work out three times a week and things like that, just to sort of I need to change something. And I felt this is the first thing. And then I sort of also needed to handle sort of the mental part. But that was my first so that was sort of a starting point for me. About seven years ago?
[04:26] Katie: Yes, seven years ago. Come a long way since then. But one of the first things I'm hearing is about having these clear boundaries. And once you're clear with yourself what workload you can take on, then you can know how to allocate your energy and your mental space. And I think this is so important, both if you're an employee being able to sort of stand up to your boss or your manager, but also when you have your own business. I know that sometimes as business owners, we take on so much, and it's the same knowing how much we're willing to take on and having those clear boundaries. And then I loved what you said about reconnecting with your body, right. Getting back into exercise, getting back into the body. Because I feel that sometimes when we get overwhelmed and burnout and things are too much, we've forgotten to listen to what our body is saying. And this is a big part of what you talk about, how to reconnect with ourselves. So the body was obviously a first key part. And then, okay, on a mental level, once you had these boundaries in place once you realized that, okay, maybe it wasn't a matter of always doing more. Maybe you were just good as you were, who you were and that could be enough. What were some other things that really helped you to reconnect with yourself?
[05:41] Thomas: I think one comment that I had, what I also realized, maybe now looking back at it, I think I was also early into sort of the digital stress because I was doing everything right in a way. I did everything right. I was very efficient, as I said, on my way to burnout in a way because I did everything as I should. And I think what happened, I didn't have the keys to. I didn't know how to get out of it because I just did more. And I think we are used to adding more and more because that's what we do as to say we add more things. But something this is not good. Let's take on a new job, let's new relationship, let's rebuild a house like you do something. And I think that was the key for me to actually stop and say maybe it's not adding more because I've been doing that for many, many years. I was very efficient. I did a lot of things and I think that was happened there. I got in touch with something called being a highly sensitive person and that sort of was for me a big, big change for me because that was like oh, I can just talk about my emotions in a different way and sort of express my things. Because what I felt also is that I had maybe for a long time that what I thought and felt was wrong. So I hid part of me like this part I should not show because this is too overthinking, too whatever. And I sort of blame myself for thinking or feeling things. And it was so liberating in this first session. I think we had like a three hour session that first of therapy and what if your thoughts or emotions are not wrong? They just are. And just like letting things out and that was such a relief. And just like this is what I feel, no right nor wrong. It is just what I feel. And just like to express that was a big thing. And also one thing there was that maybe I am a person. That because I'm a fixer, I'm a planner, I'm a project manager, I do these things and I think a lot. And then also giving myself space just to sort of disconnect or just do nothing. Because I think that's what happened. The digital stress, like before, maybe before all this connected world, this pauses and breaks came naturally. Sitting on the bus, there were actually nothing to do. We were home. There was nothing to do with you. You didn't have that connection. You got that break. But now we need to plan for it. And I think that was the big thing that happened in sort of my first sort of that therapy session that I need to plan because I maybe be that overthinker. I want to be there everywhere. I'm like this sort of cheap dog. I want to make sure that everyone is doing okay. And I think that's sort of okay. I actually need to take breaks. Even if I like it. It's like addictive. Like you just want to do more things and just plan. That was sort of one big supportive thing for me to plan those breaks. And what helped me then in the beginning, in the fall before this session, when I just listened to your body and my body told me, in a way, exercise, because in my exercises, in my going out for hikes or walks, I created that space because I didn't listen to music, I didn't do that thing. So I created that space by doing something else. So I think that was the big sort of change to understand that. So I think those three, like, starting setting your boundaries at work and adding exercise and then, of course, be aware of what I think and feel and allowing myself to express that, because I don't know if it's a manly thing. But I think Maggie, also, for men, it's harder to have that part of actually being vulnerable and allowing yourself to feel, because actually, we are humans. It's not being man or not. It's being human and actually being able to put words on what you feel.
[09:25] Katie: And think and accepting that. That huge part of self acceptance. So once you're able to formulate it, once you're able to express it, accepting that this is a part of you. Because I feel that in today's society, or maybe it's always been the case, most of us always wear a mask from time to time. Maybe not constantly, maybe sometimes we take the mask off. But whether it's in our professional life or with certain people that intimidate us or in so many different ways, we have this mass. And I feel that a great part of it comes from not accepting who we are fully. Because when we don't accept who we are, then we want to have this mass to protect. Let's just show the good sides. I know that in my case, I used to be a very fast talker, and I can still talk a lot. So for me, when I meet new people, I have this little alarm in my head. Katie, don't talk too much. You'll scare them away. I'll run away. So it's in a similar way, it's sort of hiding certain aspects of ourselves that maybe we feel ashamed of. And I loved what you just shared right now around breaks also, that they used to come naturally and that now it's so addictive with technology and work can be so addictive that it can be hard to step away so actively planning those breaks. I think that's amazing.
[10:46] Thomas: Yeah, no, I think it's really like it's nothing strange also like putting up this sort of a cade or being playing a role. That's also not something we did before, but it's also when we met people and did different things, but we also meet more people. We are more connected in many different ways. So I think it's maybe that we hold our breath all the time instead of maybe five minutes a day, and that those small stressors just because we need to be at all the places all the time. Or some of us that feel that sort of tension or maybe do that sort of are more open for that, maybe. But I think it's a change. The world is very different than it was just 15 years ago.
[11:30] Katie: Absolutely.
[11:31] Thomas: And I think we are social humans. We sort of thrive on being social, interact and want more information. We want to be social. We want to hang out with friends. We want to keep in touch. And that's because that's what we do and we want to grow. And then now when there's no stop, it's like letting a kid into the candy store and just you eat candy until you get really sick. But we know you just eat candy on Saturday, whatever, but there's no stop. So we need to set our boundaries and being aware of how we react and setting our routines and keeping our balance. It's not that it's bad. We need to balance. And I think we are thrown into something that we are not prepared for. And I think now we see a backlash with all the burned out mental health and these things that we need to set some kind of routines to balance. Like we brush our teeth morning and evening because we know it's good for our teeth, but we don't see the sort of little carriers there. But we plan for it and we do it. And I think we need to plan that as well for our mental well being that we sort of are overwhelmed and we need to sort of wash our brain or I don't know. It's not brainwashed, but it sort of actually sort of released all the things. Cleansing.
[12:45] Katie: Cleansing. Our brain cleansing.
[12:48] Thomas: Maybe it's a better word.
[12:49] Katie: Yes, a better word, yes. Brainwashing might get confusing. So brain cleansing. So what are some of the routines and habits that you have then to maintain your well being?
[12:59] Thomas: For me, it's a morning routine. I do, like, usually workout every morning. I do something before work. I say, like, I go to the gym every morning, 630. It doesn't mean that I need to do a big exercise. Sometimes it's a walk, it's go swing. But I do something before work. Well, I have the possibility. I have no kids at home, so I have that sort of possibility to be that. But that's in a way, me preparing for work, I try to during lunch that I take a break as well. Maybe go out for 1520 minutes, if the possibility. And then after I'm done with work, I usually work now as a consultant, I work between like eight to five ish. So after work I also go for my walk. I work from home now, so this is my routine. But it's like to plan my own time before work and after, of course. So that's sort of if I plan sort of around my work because then I create a space before and then sort of when I'm done with work and done my sort of work or done my whatever, then I'm also prepared to sort of hang out with family or friends and do that kind of thing. Otherwise, if I just close my laptop and then start, I'm still in sort of work. So I create that sort of space is if I think about work but also I plan it socially as well. If it's been a busy week, for example, and people want to like, let's do something on Saturday, it's like, no, I just need time for me because I just need that. So I think I'm more planning in that way. And sometimes also if you plan things with friends and you have that day that you've just been busy, like actually reschedule instead of pushing myself to do things like I did before. But it's so simple when you think back of it. And sometimes maybe I pushed myself to sort of meet friends and I think about it if I should have told them like, hey, I'm just so tired, they would say, Why did we meet? We could just reschedule. Sometimes you think you missed something or something will happen, but if you have a good friend, they will understand, say, hey, it's been a crazy day, can we just meet another day? Then I can be more present. It's being present, being here, it's not being physically there. So it's a difference. It's having that some routines, but of course.
[15:21] Katie: Yeah, it's having that awareness of the needs that you have and what you need and then being able to have the boundaries. Right, first you need to identify, okay, on a really busy day, maybe I don't want to socialize in the evening, especially if you're more introverted. I know me, it's the opposite. On a busy day at work, I need to see people because it helps me unwind as an extrovert. But having that awareness of what works for you, planning for it, and then being able to have those boundaries and sticking to it. Yeah, it sounds so easy, but I.
[15:52] Thomas: Think it's like having sort of daily go ahead, sorry. I think maybe I have a bad connection here, something was up on my computer, so let me know if it's crazy. No, but I think it's having daily routines, like just like things that, you know, like you have your set schedule like, you do you know what you do every day, like just have a daily routines and then maybe it's like a coping strategy. Like if it's busy times, if you know it's a lot, then it's like, what do I need? Then what do I need to manage? Maybe you need to have, if it's busy, three weeks, maybe, okay, this is what I need to manage. Maybe you push away things that could be moved so you also have those things, so you don't need to fix everything. So, you know, when you're balanced, you think about your strategies. Like, okay, usually in my busy times, I need this. For me, it's like if I have busy times, I know I go on a lot of hikes. That's sort of my routine because that really gives me a balance. I go out for like 15 kilometer hike or something like that, and I'd be out in the woods and I go on my own because that's what I need. So then I know, like, in a busy week, I know I have that space even though I know it's busy. And then if people want to do things or know it's like, no, I need this space. For me, it's not that I don't want to meet you, but right now I can't because I need to focus on this. If it's too much also, if you go through crisis, like if you go like, breakups or difficult things like that, it's also to plan to face the emotions. I think that's also when you talk about mental health and you have and things and it's normal to be sad after a breakup. If you have being worried about a new job or doing new things, like we being self employed, of course you get worried. When you do new things. It's like your body, it's normal. And then, okay, plan for it. It's not strange that you're worried or having being anxious or whatever. It's more that's quite normal. So what do you need to balance that anxiety? So it's a lot of being a project manager for yourself, but really to plan, okay, I'm doing a new thing that's going to take a lot of energy for me. Okay, what do I need during that time? How can I help myself through it? It's not blocking it out. It's actually just it's normal to feel just know what you need during that time.
[18:10] Katie: Absolutely. And I think this comes back to one of the key topics here, which is how you sort of can master your emotions, so how you can be in tune with them and not sort of reject them or bypass them, but sort of go through your emotions. So this would be a great topic to continue on and also linking to the title of the book The Vulnerable Man. So the link between sort of reconnecting with yourself, mastering your emotions and being vulnerable because I really feel that they all tie nicely together.
[18:43] Thomas: Yeah, I think in a way, like being vulnerable is also like being honest to yourself. Because I think what happened for me is maybe I pushed a lot of things away for a long time and then, of course, it took a longer time to heal and sort of maybe to recover. And that's what I think is also my message with the book. It's actually be more aware earlier, so you don't push away these things for a long time because I have done that for a very long time. So that was sort of a recovery for me. But the sooner you are more honest and you don't need to sort of push yourself too far. I've seen too many things from pushing yourself, both depressions and even sort of the next step of friends or people I've known. So it's rough and I think it's important to be aware of all of this right now. For me, it's a big as I said, I think we are going in a change with this sort of digital and connected world and in a way to relearn what we have learned before and break these patterns and not to hide these emotions. And before, maybe it was not needed the same way. I sort of think about my grandpa, for example, when he worked in the wintertime and he had a farm and also in the winter worked as a lumberjacket out in the forest and getting everything and what he did in the morning, like, put in the sleigh behind the horse. Went over the ice like, 45 minutes over the lake. Was in the forest. Were there for a full day of work and then sitting on the sleigh back. With a horse and taking the lumber with him. That was his day and coming home to the family. He was not like, on the sleigh, like checking what's happening and connecting with friends and all these things and these stress. He had disease part and you didn't get that many expressions. You didn't have that much information. And the same for my wonderful grandmother. Took care of everyone. Being the caring person she was, caring about the kids and also the granny kids as me and she was wonderful making all these pancakes and the cousins were there and she was so warm person but also she was there she didn't have all these other things which I think we are added on. Now when you move somewhere, you are with that family or with the people close to you. But now we are also still in touch with the high school friends, with the university friends that we need to be there. And we have like we are so scattered in a way, which it's nothing strange, it's just new, but it's also okay. We just need to be aware that it is different. And we are humans. And we want to be social, we want to be part of things. And it's maybe hard to break some connections, like to break patterns. Maybe not do everything all the time. But it is that stop to create that balance I think is key. And then being honest with yourself, being vulnerable, break a pattern. And this is me in a way.
[21:45] Katie: And it's true that in some ways we're so much more connected than we ever were before through so many different means. When you meet a new person, it's like oh, should I take your WhatsApp? Or are we instagramming or LinkedIn? And you don't even know what the best way is to connect with someone. And then in other ways, of course, we're a lot less connected, right? Because we're not as present when we see people face to face and we get interrupted by our phones and there's so many alternatives and opportunities and possibilities that we can have. Maybe this fear of missing out or this overwhelm and being scattered like what you mentioned. So you mentioned a few things like being aware of where you are and having those clear boundaries. But what else can sort of help us in this world of digital overwhelm to be a bit more grounded and to be a bit more present?
[22:41] Thomas: Yeah, there are many things no, but I think you say it there in a way that to actually stop and listen. I think we are pushing ourselves so hard and we're trying to fix things, but just like stay up and actually listen, asking question, being interested in the other person even more, maybe okay, please explain. And just creating space for others without connections, like put away your phone when you're at dinner and just be here. Because I think that's the biggest lack I think we have now. Well, not maybe the biggest, but for some it's actually the presence, like being aware and being here. So maybe that's one key thing to allow yourself to disconnect. And also how do you feel when you disconnect? How do you feel when you cannot be a BCB? What happens then? How do you feel and stay in that and be there? And I think also to allow yourself to try to learn, because I should know this. Maybe you're sort of quick that you want to know everything right now, to see it as a journey. Maybe it's like learning to ride a bike, like to be kind to yourself in this sort of relearning, because it is a big thing. We are in the whole society, in the industrial sort of revolution all these things that we are built to be more also more efficient than creating things and what's a new time in one way and to not blame yourself for being efficient. Fixing this actually to allow yourself to learn and being kind to yourself. Maybe a long answer, but that's my thoughts that come up.
[24:33] Katie: Yes, allowing yourself to learn. And I love what you said about stepping away from being a busy bee and seeing what's happening. Because obviously my brand the focus be and a big part of this is I want to go against this busyness, this constant busyness and distraction and be more focused and intentional and present. So absolutely 2 billion% agree on this. I created my whole brand and website and everything around this concept because yes, we are too busy and sometimes in the wrong way that leads to overwhelm and burnout like we discussed. But instead we can be refocused and we can be present again and appreciate life maybe a bit more.
[25:14] Thomas: Yeah, because I think the efficiency of being more effective is also something that helped us, like being producing more cars or creating a better life for ourselves. Because we have to go back 150 years, there were more starvation in the world, there was a lack of different things and there were a lack of things. And we are now in a different world as well. We have more food, of course we have things to fix in the whole world, but most population, we have more food, we have more things, we have a better lifestyle, we have washing machines and dishwasher and we have all these things and we have been more efficient and creating things in a better way. So we have created a better life for ourselves. But also then we are used to be in this sort of wheel of actually trying to be more efficient. But if we then stop and think about today, what is being more efficient today? Because you can be connected all the time, you can do things all the time, you can search for information all the time. So now it's like there's no stop of being efficient because then you compare it to other worlds and we can work over time zones. So it's also something that was also fun, like in the beginning, I think, because you have the possibility to be aware and you can do so many things, but now there is no stop. So creating that stop is something we need to do together and also by ourselves to sort of okay, what is enough for me, what more do I need, what will make my life better? Because also comparing to my grandparents back again, like the life we are living now with sort of the comfort that we have is so much different and maybe also there to be grateful for what we have. And even though if you look at the pandemic and sort of the rough times there staying at home, but we had food on our plates, most of us. We had roof over our heads, we could work from home, we could order food home or whatever and we had the amusement, we could watch Netflix or we had all these sort of we can look at other things. So we have much more of these things today. So also to look, we actually have. Quite a good thing here. And what are we running for? What is the extra thing that we want to push ourselves for? Maybe it's more actually this connection, but that creating disconnection that we have now is nothing. We can be more efficient in it's being more present and being more here. So it's interesting world that we are moving into. So it's a really disruptive change in society, I think.
[27:55] Katie: And it's all about finding that balance, right? Still being productive, striving for goals, doing work efficiently, enjoying some of the benefits of technology, but still being able to be present, to be grounded, to be proactive in disconnecting from technology. So really, it's not about going to live in a forest or you can, but it's more about that balance.
[28:18] Thomas: Exactly. Because if you don't have the balance, you will not be efficient because efficiency is maybe not being like just that stressed person. It's more what is actually adding value, what is adding value today, what is creativeness, what is actually wanted. And maybe it's more to have a good conversation and especially working with change and being there for people and actually help if you want to help people on their sort of inner journey. And you're also a coach, and, you know, like, if you want to help someone, it's not telling you what to do. It's you to take the step that you can take. So it doesn't matter what I know. It's how can you take your first step? And that's how can I help you take the first step. It's actually me to listen to you and understand where you are and see, okay, what is the boundaries or what is stopping you from taking your next step? And then I can help you on that. It's the same like with planned school. Like, you have first grade, second grade, third grade. You don't start with sort of algebra and all these advanced analytics with the kids know, you start with sort of one plus one equals two. And it doesn't matter that I know it's growing and learning these different kind of steps. And yeah, I don't know how that turns into everything, but that's just that we are on a learning trait in a way.
[29:37] Katie: Yes, we're on a learning and I think what you're saying is we all have our own rhythms and that's okay. And so we're not trying to impose our own rhythm onto someone else and things that we've understood and assimilated great, but it's also about understanding that people are different places. So totally. Yes, absolutely. Thomas, this has gone by so quickly. It's been so wonderful to have you on the show. We touched on so many different topics from vulnerability and emotions to now learning at your pace and change and digital well being and balance. So it's been a very productive 30 minutes. What would be your last note for the audience before we finish for today's episode?
[30:19] Thomas: Well, since it's summer. I would say like enjoy the summer the time. Well I think maybe that's the key thing to allow yourself to actually take a break and allow that space. Sometimes you think you are more efficient than pushing yourself, but actually that break add something. So take breaks and start to see what happens when you take a break from things. How do you feel? What do you think? What come up? Do writing and stay in it and see what happens.
[30:51] Katie: Amazing. Thank you so much Thomas for being on the show today. Thank you very much.
[30:55] Thomas: Thank you so much for having me.
[31:01] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most value able for you and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.