[00:00] Kim: Showing up imperfectly. We're showing up without everything fully baked and figured out.
[00:05] Katie: Welcome back to the focus B show. This is Katie Sudddart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:43] Katie: And today on the show I have Kim Marsh. Kim is a writing and book coach. She founded the open book company to help authors, coaches, entrepreneur, inspirational speakers to find and hone their voice through one on one coaching and group writing circles. Wonderful to have you on the show today, Kim. Thank you so much for joining.
[01:07] Kim: Thanks for having me.
[01:08] Katie: I'm really excited about our conversation. This is the first time I have someone on to discuss book and writing and it's a topic I'm really passionate about. I've written myself, I write blog articles, I have a book coming soon and I love writing fiction and nonfiction. So it's great to have a specialist in the room.
[01:27] Kim: Good to be here with you. Thanks for having me.
[01:30] Katie: So how did you get into book writing and book coaching? More specifically, how did that journey look for you?
[01:37] Kim: So it's actually a little bit of a humorous story and my background originally is in. I started my career in the education nonprofit space. I moved over to the corporate world and was doing diversity, equity and inclusion work in the corporate world along with communications. And when I decided to leave to start my own business, I was doing freelance writing and I was really enjoying freelance writing and helping people with career writing because I came with my HR background. And so I was supporting people know, how do they tell their story and tell their journey through the written word. And I was having an interesting conversation with someone who was an acquaintance of mine at the time, but now a year later is one of my closest friends, Tina Strawn. And when I told Tina, hey, I'm starting my own business and I'm going to be doing freelance writing and helping people tell their stories, she was like, oh my gosh, I'm writing a book right now, do you want to be my writing coach? And my first response was yes. And then my second response was, what's a writing coach? And so that was my foray into the writing coaching world. This was a little over a year ago and so I just kind of jumped in headfirst and took my background in communications and in dei work and in all operations and systems and kind of how my brain was working back from my corporate days to say, okay, I'm going to figure this out and see what happens. And it was an amazing journey and it's been an amazing journey. Since then, but that conversation opened up for me an entire world of possibility. And once I started working with Tina and other clients on their writing and dabbling in a little ghost writing as well, my clients really started holding a mirror up to me and showing me, these are the things you're good at. These are the things that you help me through. This is the areas that coaching has helped me in and showed me kind of an awesome path for pivoting my business. And so I in less than a year, changed the direction of my freelance writing business to be a writing and book coaching business, which I officially launched in January called the Open Book Company.
[04:10] Katie: Amazing. So you shifted a bit from writing yourself and doing that freelancer type work to focusing on the coaching side. And I love coaching and we're going to go through the nitty gritty of what writing coaching looks like, for instance, with your clients, people you've been working with, what are some of the key topics or issues that you see come up time and time again in this field?
[04:34] Kim: Yeah, so it's really interesting, Katie, because there's two issues that I ran into all the time with my clients and that I still run into all the time with my clients, regardless of their level of experience of writing their level of experience in the particular topic that they're writing about. It's all about, number one, accountability and carving out the time to actually make writing happen. We're all very busy, let's use the buzzword, the busy buzzword. And so carving out that time and prioritizing that time to make it happen is one of the biggest challenges and one of the biggest issues. But then the second is really around all of this mindset stuff and there's a lot packed in there, so hopefully we can unpack some of that a little bit. But that is the overarching category that covers the inner critic impostor syndrome. Am I good enough? Will anyone want to read this? Hasn't this already been written before? All the litany of things that come into people's minds and come into our own minds, that give us this block and this barrier. And I joke with my clients that the reason that I am equipped to be able to support them through these challenges is not because I'm some master or some guru at dealing with mindset issues, it's because I've experienced them all myself. And so that gives me this ability to be able to speak directly to the heart of some of the things that they're experiencing. So it's accountability and mindset issues. Those are the two issues and challenges that come up without fail.
[06:17] Katie: I'm not surprised, but it's great to hear them summarized that way. I feel that definitely accountability and people not prioritizing it, and also because it's hard. It's hard mentally. It's an effort you have to be proactive. There's that blank page syndrome and you suddenly have to sit and be like, okay, now I need to write something. What do I write about? Get into it. I know that in my case, what helped me in blank page syndrome moments was either to put out a plan of vaguely what I want to talk about, especially in nonfiction, and then once I already had some material, I would review what I've already written and use that to get back in the flow. That's what has helped me. But I'll also be curious to hear your thoughts on that. And yes, and Mindset issues will definitely go into that more because this is a huge one. So just to come back and sort of finish that topic of blank page syndrome, how do you help people to overcome that? Because that is an interesting one.
[07:11] Kim: It is, and I love that. I actually don't know if I've heard it phrased that way before and I'm going to take that one and give you some kind of kitty. It's a good one. So yes, a lot of times we hear this term writer's block. Now I've heard blank page syndrome. I like that. And it's very interesting because there's a lot of writing out there. So writing from writers who have actually talked about the fact that they think writer's block is a myth. So the reality being that when you experience what we call writer's block or blank page syndrome, it's actually tied directly to the second challenge that I mentioned around Mindset impostor syndrome, because it's not that we cannot write. If I said in those moments to you, when you have blank page syndrome, can you write out a grocery list? Can you write an email to a friend? Can you pick something that you do every day? You would probably have no problem doing that. It has been posited that we don't actually experience writers block necessarily because the act of writing isn't what's a block for us, it's when our mind starts telling the stories and censoring and editing before we even get things down on the page. That becomes the real challenge. And so that's a direct correlation to the second issue about mindset. So that's how I actually work with people through this theoretical, potentially theoretical concept of writer's block, which is, all right, let's move on to the second thing, which is really at play here. Let's talk about your mindset and what's going on there.
[09:01] Katie: Yeah, that makes absolute sense. And I like how you said that we can still write a grocery list or we can still write an email to a friend. What I wonder, though, is and we'll definitely get into the mindset in just a second. What I wonder is, though, if there isn't such a thing as creative burnout. Because I know that at one point, when I was writing a lot of posts and a lot of blog articles and just a lot of stuff, at one point I felt I couldn't write anymore. And it didn't feel to me as though I had this inner critic or impostor syndrome about my posts because it's something I don't feel too self conscious about compared to writing a book, it's different. But it generally did feel like I just can't write anymore. I just don't have any idea. I don't want to. It hasn't happened much, and when it did happen, just two, three, four days off worked. But so I'm curious in those moments of sort of creative burnout, perhaps, or pre creative burnout, because it's not really a burnout if it's just a few days work can help people to refind that passion or interest or inspiration to write again.
[10:01] Kim: Yeah, well, burnout in any facet of our working lives or of our lives, period, I should say, is something that does come up and can affect you whether you are writing content or not. And the way that I support people through this experience or what I would advise you, it's actually what people would think might be the opposite of what to do, but it's actually to play into that and to listen to that inner voice and that feeling of you need to stop and not push through. Because when we push through and now I'm getting a little bit beyond writing coaching. So I'll save that for when you have someone on who's more professional in talking about burnout. And I know actually a few burnout coaches if you need anyone to talk to, but yeah, so it's about pausing. And actually I run these writing circles that I was sharing a little bit about with you. And one of the things that we do at the beginning of every writing circle is actually a breathing exercise. So we do some guided breathing, some guided meditation, not a ton of time people have come there to write. But the point is that if we're not connected to, at least from my perspective, if we're not connected to ourselves, I mean, where does our writing come from? It comes from our thoughts, our memories, our experiences. It comes from our feelings, whether you're writing nonfiction or not. And so to me, if we're not connected and in tune with ourselves, we're not going to be able to produce the writing and get our stories out there in a way that feels good to us, feels comfortable to us, feels authentic to us. And so whether it's to prevent burnout or once you start experiencing that, to me it's actually about pausing, it's about breathing, it's about doing the thing that works for you. For some people that's taking a walk. For some people that's saying, okay, I'm going to take a two day break from this and then come back. For other people that's reading about other people who have experienced it, whatever the case is for you finding that thing that supports you in that moment for yourself. But like I said, to me, it's not a separate thing that happens. This is all interconnected because we are our writing and our words that we create. We need to be connected to ourselves and if we disassociate and if we become numb and if we're burnt out and if we're just pushing through for the sake of getting things out there, we're doing ourselves and the people that we're sharing our words with a disservice.
[12:54] Katie: I agree with you on not pushing through. I found that in those moments, as soon as it would sort of kick in, I just paused definitely on the moment or over course of a few days. But I think it's also important to notice the difference and this is where experience comes in hand, to notice the difference between just being a bit resistant because it's tough, and having that inner critic and these doubts and the actual sort of creative burnout when you've been writing a lot. And I think you can know the difference when you experience it because in one case it's literally sort of an overdose and it comes generally after a period where you've created a lot of content whereas the other is more like as you're going through the flow. So they feel a bit differently, I think. And I know that what helped me was also so taking a break, but then especially nonfiction and in the personal development field, it was just listening to stuff, listening to other podcasts or reading things and then I would get inspired again because I'd read about a topic that I like or they'll know about or hear something. So it really wasn't that hard. But I just thought it was interesting to contrast both type of blank page syndromes if you want, because they're not the same. But let's dive into the mindset because I think that's hugely important and it's a great part, like you said, with the accountability on progressing on your writing. So in terms of mindset, what do you feel helps people to overcome this inner critic self doubt? All of those things, all of those I'm not good enough, not worthy enough to be writing, who's going to read my writing anyway? It's all be written before all of those types of thoughts.
[14:26] Kim: Well, how much time do you have? Just kidding.
[14:28] Katie: Let's summarize it in a nutshell. Maybe a good way would be a sort of general process to approach these types of thoughts. We can take one example, maybe not I'm not good enough because that can be in all area, but we can take maybe something like there was another one that you said, like in a critic. So this specific piece of work isn't I don't know, I'm trying to think. Let's take an example.
[14:57] Kim: I got you. Yeah, I have a good one and I say that in jest, by the way, right, because obviously and you know this, there is so much to pick apart with all of these different elements. One of the biggest ones that does cut across a few of those is around this idea of success. And this could be, is my book going to sell X amount of copies? This could be, is my social media post going to get any likes? This could be all of these things. And so the tool that I use to support my clients and what I would advise anyone to do, whether you're sitting down to write a book, whether you're sitting down to write any type, and frankly, this could apply to fiction too, but any type of nonfiction, personal essay, memoir, et cetera. Think about what your goal is and your intention, because that will actually directly determine whether you think what you have done has become a success. And I say this, and it seems really obvious when I say it like that, but I'm going to share an example where it will hopefully highlight how sometimes when you're in the moment and in the zone, it's actually not that obvious. And it actually caused me to I've started using this term, I don't know if I made it up, but false, failure. And so I'll give you an example, which is a client that I was working with wanted to start writing blog posts. And so they wrote their first blog post. They posted their first blog post, and no one liked, commented, or reacted to their first blog post. And so the initial reaction was in their mind, this was a failure. No one wanted to read this, no one cared about it, no one liked it. And so I said, okay, let's go back to what was your goal? Well, my goal was to write a blog post. Did you do what you said you were going to do and write a blog post? Yes. Okay, so was that actually a failure based on what you set out to do? No, the thing that in our minds and in their mind made it a failure was the external reaction, the external validation, or lack thereof. And that's kind of how we've been conditioned in this day and age of constant scrolling, sharing, posting, highlight reels, all of that. Right. And so that's why for myself, by the way, I have to do this for myself all the time. I'll do something and then say, oh my gosh, I'll post a new workshop or I'll do something that I'm just experimenting with. Let's see what happens when you decide to host a workshop about writing a nonfiction book if no one signs up for it. Oh my gosh, that was a total failure. Well, what was your goal? Was your goal to get 100 people to sign up for it? Well, no, my goal was to just see what happens if I just post this workshop and don't market it and see what happens. Okay, now I know I found out the answer to my query and to my experiment. And so I think that's the critical piece when it comes to our mindsets around what we've been conditioned to see as success in the book writing business. Okay, how many have you sold? What reviews do you have on Amazon? All of this stuff. And I'm not saying that that stuff is not important, but it's only important if you feel that it's important for the goal that you have set. If you have a goal to say, oh, I'm going to write a memoir so that I can leave a story and a legacy for my family to read. Well, you're not going to base your success on how many reviews you have or how many books you've sold. Your success is in the fact that you accomplished that and you did that and you now have something to share. So to me, one of the biggest ways that we can get through some of these mindset challenges is to actually go back and ground ourselves in what did we say we want to do, and is our idea of failure actually false failure and not really failure?
[19:12] Katie: I like this term false failure. And also, I think what you just shared is a very general lesson also about success here because we seek so often external validation to define what we're doing as successful. And I often read posts on LinkedIn, for instance, who say that with time, at first, all you're looking for is the amount of likes, and with time it's like who is actually liking or who is engaging. And I have come to see that even though the vanity metrics, of course they do something, when you're really excited about something and it doesn't get a lot of engagement, it is a disappointment. And when a post does really well or it surprises you, it is good. But I think the quality of the relationships that come out of it matters so much more. To take a very concrete example, if you oh, I know that. For example, Alex B. Sheridan, that I also interviewed on this podcast early, early on anyway, he has a very strong following on LinkedIn and he wrote at one point a post saying that the posts that gave him the most views, the most engagement that went totally viral didn't bring any leads or clients. And I think at the end of the day, again, it depends on what your goal is. But for instance, if we come to social media, and if the goal in social media is to get clients, which it often is not only, but it often is, then maybe you have one like but then that one person turns it to a client that's worth way more than 100 likes. They're just sort of scrolling, for instance. But in what you said with the memoirs, it's the same if you're writing it to leave a legacy to your family that matters more than reviews on Amazon. And I think keeping that in mind, but also, even when you're aiming, let's say, to be a New York Times bestseller or to have loads of reviews. And even if that isn't your goal, I would still invite people who think that to consider why like, why is it important for them to be a New York Times bestseller? Why is it and what is it behind that that matters? And I've noticed from working with high achievers that often it's linked to a lack of self compassion. So they're trying to receive love on the outside or validation or approval or awards or whatever you want because they haven't validated themselves. And as soon as you do work on self compassion, suddenly sure, these things still matter, especially in a business world, but they no longer have the same sort of importance or need. I think there's a clingingness to like, I must be number one, I must be a New York Times bestseller. And there's a sort of desperate need, and that need comes from lack of you're at least happy with where you are. You're happy with what you've done with your life so far, and you feel quite content with yourself without thinking you're the most amazing person in the world, but you're at least on good terms. Then I think it's I.
[22:03] Kim: Mean that resonates with me so much because I kind of tongue in cheek share as part of my introduction. Often that I'm not a New York Times bestseller, but I'm still a worthwhile human. And I think that with my clients, with my audience, with anyone, whether you work with me or not, whether you follow me or not, the message that is really important for me to make sure. And part of the reason, one of the biggest reasons why I started the business in the first place is that you and I don't mean you, Katie, I mean you any human being that fill in the blank with your name, you are inherently worthy of sharing your voice. You don't need a major book deal. You don't need a spot on a global stage. You don't need a PhD in English literature to have a story worth telling. And there is a really big gray area between being a New York Times or number one bestselling author and staying silent and keeping your voice and your words and your story to yourself. And that's where I want to play, is in that gray area with people like, let's not limit ourselves because we think, okay, I could never be X, or I'm not going to be X, or that's not going to be me. Let's play in this gray area and let's share your story with one other person and see where that takes you and how that feels for you. So what you said really resonates with.
[23:32] Katie: Me, and I like this concept of the gray area and actually embracing the fact that there is a huge gray area between not doing anything and being a New York Times bestseller. And I feel it's the same in business. It's not starting your own business or not doing what you want to do as a side hustle and having a seven figure business. And it seems that a lot of coaches and mentors out there, it's all about either six or seven figure businesses. And I always think, well, again, what about the gray areas? What about the people who aren't interested in the finances but want more of a work life balance than to work two days a week but actually aren't enough to be comfortable in their business? What about people who still want to kind of be an employee and they just want to have a side hustle on the side and have fun, et cetera, et cetera. So I feel there's too much of an emphasis on things that sound cool or look cool, like how to be a New York Times a seller, or how to have your seven figure business or how to blah, blah, blah. And it's like maybe they're not actually the things that really feel nice, they just sound good.
[24:34] Kim: Yes, and I couldn't agree more. And that comes back to also having the goal, having your intention, and having what you want in mind. Because if you know it's more important for you to have that work life balance and to have that integration with your side hustle or whatever the case may be, you're going to approach things a lot differently than what it may look like on the outside to someone else's success. And to them, what might look like, quote unquote, failure is actually not at all. That's your sweet spot. So that's really when it's about to your point, knowing yourself, self compassion and getting in touch with what your own personal intention and aspiration and purpose is.
[25:19] Katie: Absolutely. And I think that when the goals do sound too shiny and bright and what have you, there's a high risk of pursuing that goal for the sake of it or to be seen and approved by others, like I said before, and therefore to not actually follow your own intentional goal. So there's a danger with all these shiny goals, not that it can't be good on the side when you write your book, if it does become a New York Times bestseller or as you grow your business, it does turn into seven figures. It's not like a bad side effect. But I think putting that as the main goal instead of writing a book that you enjoy writing and influencing people to transform their lives, if that's the goal behind it and it ends up doing super successfully by the cultural terms, then that's fine. But it's true that being really clear on why you want it and what exactly you want out of it does make a huge difference. I'd like to sort of do a bit of tangent here. You mentioned off air the concept of leaps and I'd love to hear more about that. And you said it was referred to.
[26:24] Kim: Moore, actually. Yeah. So thank you for bringing this up because I love talking about this topic. So Tara Moore is the author of a book called Playing Big and she also has a program of the same name. And it's all about how to focused on women specifically, but how to get women speaking up, creating, leading more, and playing big, especially when we have some of these internal messages or societal messages that we've been internalizing around, where we've developed the inner critic and where we've developed this imposter syndrome and all of that stuff. So one of the concepts that I love working on with my clients and that I actually practice myself in my business is called Leaping. And so Tara Moore has outlined these six criteria for what constitutes a leap. And it's basically this idea of how do you get yourself playing bigger pretty quickly and get some feedback and answers to a question that you might have. So an example within my business is actually starting the writing circles that I launched. So I could have said, okay, I'm going to stay over here at the Whiteboard, coming up with a plan, six months figuring out a marketing scheme, all of these things. What's the branding going to be for my writing circles? How am I going to promote these, all the messaging, all the things, the content, et cetera. Six months over here in my little corner, that would feel safe, that would feel comfortable for me, but it wouldn't necessarily get me closer to my goal and to getting feedback from my audience about my goal and what I'm putting together. So instead, taking this concept of a leap, it's something you have to do in one to two weeks and it gets you playing bigger. And so for me, it was, okay, I'm going to do a rough launch of the writing circles. I'm going to kind of use the channels that I've already been using to talk about them, use what I already have. I'm not going to sit here and take a bunch of time trying to come up with something on my own that I think people would like. I'm actually going to get it out there, get it in front of people, and very quickly get feedback from them to see what do they want, what would serve them, what value can I provide, and what's their response to these writing circles? Which, by the way, gives you an exponential head start on, let's say these were a total disaster and no one liked them. Can you imagine if I spent six months over here in a corner putting my time, effort, money, resources, all of this into something instead of getting that immediate feedback? The reason that so many of us are resistant to this idea, though, even though it sounds so beautiful when we think about it and like, oh yeah, Kim, I would want. To save six months of my time is because we're getting in front of people. We're getting into our vulnerable place. We're showing up imperfectly. We're showing up without everything fully baked and figured out and hashed out. But it's critical and helps us exponentially. And so the application to writing and how I work on this with my clients is also this idea of can you take your writing, your content, your idea, and get a beta reader before you're actually going to publication? If you're sitting on a five part article series that you want to publish, what about putting a few snippets of it out on social media or sending in an email to some folks in your target audience to get some initial feedback? Is this a topic they are interested in? What would they want to know about this topic and asking them questions? And then that helps you to exponentially expedite your process of making sure that what you're putting out there is actually of relevance to your audience. Again, maybe less applicable if you have your set specific story that you know you want to get out there. But as you think about what is your goal, if it's impact, if it's action, if it's driving people to make a change, if it's a motivational content, if it's all of these things, wouldn't you want to know how people are going to receive it? What they actually want from your content, and how you can support them on their journey? And so this idea of leaping, it gets you through. You got to push through some of that perfectionist tendencies, get over that hump of the inner critic. But it has radically transformed how I think about my business and also how writers and authors can think about getting input on their books, their content, their blog posts, et cetera, before they go and sit over in the corner like me for six months.
[31:14] Katie: Yes, I love this concept. And I think that the idea of getting feedback as soon as possible is absolutely essential. And you hit the nail on the head when you said that the reason we don't do that is because of the fear of being vulnerable and showing up and showing to others and dealing with this imperfect product. But that is the most efficient way for sure, because like you said, you could spend six months planning it and then it would feel a lot more like a failure because you spent so much time and energy and effort and crafting the perfect thing. And then maybe the timing is off, maybe stuff happening in the world and it's not the good moment to launch maybe this, that, and the other. And it doesn't work. So it's definitely much better. And I'm a huge advocate of start super fast and improve as you go along. So my podcast, I remember I had the idea and I started two weeks later, I think just interviewed first guest and then I started getting a mic and then I got a webcam and then got the software.
[32:12] Kim: You did a leap without even calling it a leap.
[32:15] Katie: That's kind of how I function, though. But I think the difference is there are different people in, there are different profiles. I mean, there's so many different profiles of everything. But I'm a start to end planner, which means I start stuff and then I have a tendency to get bored with things. So then I need to trick myself to believe it's still the start or a different way to do the project. So the podcast is a good example. I've been running it for a year and a half. The reason I don't get bored with it is I feel every conversation is new. So even though it's the same format, it's new people every time, it's new topics, and that keeps me engaged. Now, enter star planners. They have their goal far ahead and they do all the planning of a river backwards. Generally when they start, they may be better prepared. For instance, with the podcast, they would definitely have gotten a mic and et cetera, et cetera. But there is the downfall of them overspending time and in the end not delivering to the quality. So there's pros and cons to both. Like I say, start to end planners are more likely to quit. So they need to work on perseverance a lot and then end to start planners, maybe overly perfectionists sometimes and procrastinate.
[33:23] Kim: A bit, but then I love this. I'm going to have to reflect. I have my gut feeling on what I am.
[33:31] Katie: And then there's just this third category called visionary, and they have an overview vision of all of it. And you can be a mix of both of them or you can be one in particular, and then you can even be a unicorn. And you are star time planner, ed to, start planner and visionary. And my friend came to visit a few weeks ago and I think she was a unicorn. And I was like, yeah. And I could see all aspects super clear. Of course we all do all of them, but there's definitely a preference. Anyway, that was kind of a side note. We're approaching the end of the podcast. I've loved our tour. We've covered so many interesting things from the inner critique and the leaps and then the blank page syndrome that I sort of invented on the spot. So I'm glad that was an interesting term. Didn't even realize I said that until you mentioned it, which is funny. And so what would you like to leave the listeners with? What would be the last note to leave them on? If they're looking to improve their writing, to write more often, maybe even to publish a book, what would you like to leave them with?
[34:25] Kim: Well, thanks, Katie. I mean, for me, I have to go back to this idea of you are inherently worthy of sharing your story and sharing your voice. We talked a lot about this gray area between the top of the mountain and the base of the mountain, and I just encourage people to play in that space and explore that space and dip their toes into that space and have fun in that space. Because you definitely don't need to have a major book deal, a spot on a global stage, or a PhD in English Literature to have a story worth telling. You are inherently worthy of telling your story because you are a human. So that's what I would want to leave people with.
[35:13] Katie: Thank you so much. Kim, it's been a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you for tuning in.
[35:17] Kim: So great to see you. Thank you.
[35:23] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback, so let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend.
[35:41] Katie: Or a family member.
[35:43] Katie: Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead. Sam.