[00:00] Kel: It should scare you as the fundraiser a little bit. It should feel a little bit of a leap.
[00:05] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddock here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:43] Katie: In. From New York City, today's guest is Kel Hanney. Kel works as a senior consultant at Donnelly, a New York City based fundraising consulting firm, and they specialize in helping small, medium sized nonprofits grow beyond their size. Kel used to work in companies linked to the theatre. She's done a lot of work with the theatre, and I'm very excited about today's conversation. So fantastic to have you here, Kel. Thank you so much for joining the show today.
[01:14] Kel: Oh, thank you, Katie. I'm so happy to be here.
[01:17] Katie: Yes, we already spoke a bit off, and I already know this is going to be a wonderful talk. I'm so curious about so many different things. Let's see how much we can cram in in half an hour. To begin with, you spoke a bit about fundraising when we were speaking offline just before, and you're working on writing a book that you're going to call taking the ick out of the ask. So if you could tell us a bit more and tell the audience a bit more about how they can improve their fundraising and in that different area, that'd be really great.
[01:48] Kel: Sure, happy to do it. So, basically, Katie already knows this, but I spent 16 years in New York as a theater director, and I needed to do something to supplement my income. So I started fundraising over the phone for my favorite theater company. And suddenly that was still a 13 year old girl who loved to talk on the phone was met in this most amazing way that I got to. Use that skill to be on the phone and actually raising money for this organization that I loved so much and really put that power to good use. So I have 10,000 plus hours of fundraising over the phone under my belt. Just kind of wild. And that ended up being an accidental side career as I started to work as a consultant and train other people and set up other fundraising campaigns that were predominantly phone calls. And then I'm now in this situation where I am a full time outbound fundraising expert. So I have trained hundreds of people, working towards thousands of people on how to fundraise. And what I'll say, Katie, is the most important thing is to really be connected with yourself and to think about what makes each of us special and what makes each of us unique. So that was the same methodology I had as a theater director, of getting to know actors or designers, writers in the room, and just really trying to lead from a place of empathy and to figure out what makes them special. Because if we're trying to fundraise and trying to sound like somebody else, that inauthenticity is what comes across. So what I say is only try to fundraise for things that you really love and get really clear about why you love them. And also enter the conversation from a place that's vulnerable of listening actively to the other person, of what they're responding to in what you're saying and really trying to be like, how do we make this more of a conversation? So I'm really interested in this idea of shifting the narrative of fundraising away from being like a transactional moment to becoming an opportunity for relationship building. And so I'm always thinking about it's not about a one time ask. It's about how are we continuing to build our community in whatever the situation is that we're asking for money, but that we're building the community and that we're building a relationship with this person. The idea is that when we finish the conversation, regardless of what happens, that we as the person who's fundraising, feel good about the conversation and how we interacted, and that the person that we asked feels the same way. We won't even need to get into this too much. But the other thing is that it's so personal and that we all have to really face our own thoughts and backgrounds and obstacles created around money in order to do this work. And I identify as a CIS white woman, very middle class, upper middle class is how I grew up. So I don't have the same barriers as somebody else has. And so I'm aware of that. So I also had a leg up in terms of figuring this out in the first place.
[05:01] Katie: Interesting. And I'm curious, what do you feel are some of the pitfalls when it comes to fundraising? So what are some of the most common mistakes that people do?
[05:10] Kel: I love that question. The biggest mistake, I would say is striving for perfection. I mean, isn't that with so much of what we do, but the idea of thinking that when you make that ask, you're going to get it all right, it's just A, it's impossible, b, it reads as inauthentic and keeps people from connecting to us. So what's most important is to really lead with your own vulnerability, and that includes your own given circumstances. So it's okay to say, I've really enjoyed this conversation, katie, I'm a little nervous about this next part, but I'm going to shoot for the moon and see if you can do donation, $1,000 or whatever it is. So just being vulnerable with how we're feeling in the moment. The other thing, and I don't know how many of your audience members are into yoga, but I really love the idea of a good stretch versus a bad stretch and thinking about like, what does that mean? You should know the amount that you're going to ask for. And that it should scare you as the fundraiser a little bit. It should feel a little bit of a leap because that's what we want to find. We want to find that good stretch for ourselves that also feels like a good stretch to the person for whom we're asking.
[06:28] Katie: And what was it like for you? I'm curious because so many hours on the phone, fundraising, that's a very different shift from working as a theater director. What was that journey like for you?
[06:40] Kel: Well, it's funny because I was doing them concurrently, so I was in rehearsal for the day, whether it was my own projects or whether it was the moments when I was working as the associate on off Broadway or Broadway show. And it didn't really feel that different because so much of it is about verbal communication and about connecting with others. It's definitely using a slightly different part of my brain, but not as much different as you'd actually think. And I think that it definitely was different, the idea of being on the phone with someone as opposed to in person, but it didn't actually feel that different. And I was talking about something I loved. I think that's what's really important is that when I was fundraising and calling people to talk about theater, I was also talking about theater as I was making theater with the rest of the day. So it all fed the kind of inner child version of myself, of, oh, I'm doing what I loved. And it felt so good to be a woman in my twenty s and also being able to support myself financially with my work. And so I knew at that place in America, the idea of being a theater director in your 20s, even into your 30s, is not a career that's going to pay all of the bills. So it definitely felt very empowering that I had this other skill that I could implement while I was pursuing my dream as a theater director.
[08:07] Katie: Nice. And now do you work full time then, as a fundraiser, or do you still do theater work?
[08:12] Kel: I actually work full time as a fundraiser. That's been one of the silver linings to the Pandemic, being very frank with you. When the pandemic hit, I was in a challenging moment in my career. And that catch 22 of trying to get the next big project it not happening. But needing the next big project in order for my career to move forward and watching some of my friends and colleagues lead into a place in their career that I wasn't in yet. And at the moment, I had so much of my identity, katie wrapped up in who I was as a director, and it wasn't healthy for me. And so when the Pandemic hit, I was in tech rehearsals for a show. I had to fly home with my husband on St. Patrick's Day on 2020. It was quite terrifying. And so then I shifted to full time fundraising. The woman I work with now at Donorly, Sandra Davis, said, I think this is going to go on a little while. Do you want a little bit of extra fundraising work? And I said, sure, why not? We're going to be on break for two weeks or a month. I'll do that. And so I shifted to full time fundraising. And what surprised me was that I was actually really enjoying my life. I was enjoying working during the day and having a really clear boundary between my life and my professional life, which I'd never had before. And then suddenly I was living in Astoria, New York, which is a borough of New York City, and I was able to, for the first time, see spring hit that neighborhood. And so every night I took a walk, and every night my husband and I had dinner together at our kitchen table. We usually saw theater. We would see six to eight shows a week. And so I had a real change in my life and a change in the tempo of my life, and suddenly I was actually happier than I'd been in a very long time in my adult life. So I listened to that and listened to, oh, maybe my dreams are actually shifting, and maybe I'm actually going to be happier if I'm doing work that isn't feeling so connected to my identity. So that's how that transition started. Yeah.
[10:23] Katie: The main thing is that it made you so happy, and that is really what is essential, finding joy and fulfillment in your work. What was it like being a theater director? I'm really curious about that field and that work. What was it like?
[10:39] Kel: Well, it was my favorite thing as a kid, and I did not really realize until I was in high school that somebody did this for a living. So then I moved to New York two weeks after graduating from college at 22. And what I would always say is that it was so much harder than I ever anticipate it could be. But it was also so much more fulfilling because everyone I was working with, it's not a career in which you can just kind of like, ho hum, just get by. Everyone's hustling. Everyone is working so hard. You're always looking for the next job, but at the same time you need to similar to how I coach fundraising, now, you have to lead from a place that's so vulnerable and empathetic. And I liked that juxtaposition of having to work so hard and having to hustle, but also having to find a way to keep my heart open and how to connect with people. And it was just so fun because in New York, I was a little fish in the biggest pond and suddenly all the plays that I'd been reading as a young person, I got to meet the people who actually made that work and start to collaborate with those people. And I loved the intergenerational collaboration. I love that sometimes, unfortunately, I was the only woman in the room, but not so unfortunately. Sometimes I was the youngest person in the room as a theater director. And so I'm directing, I'm collaborating with people who have decades of life experience that I don't have. So it really did have this familial dynamic and really led to me having a lot of life experiences that I would not have had and also research topics I would not have known anything about. But you have to become a mini expert of whatever you're working on. So I felt like it really kept like I said, my heart opened, but also my mind really active.
[12:39] Katie: That's so interesting. And it's sort of hard to picture in some ways, of course, I imagine that if you haven't lived that type of life, it's hard to imagine. So you were working most evenings and weekends, I imagine, being in the theater.
[12:51] Kel: Yeah. I mean, Katie, I remember less than ten years ago, my New Year's resolution was to take one day off a month, was to be like, I'm going to take one Sunday off a month, one Sunday where I'm not going to go to see shows. So I was fundraising usually six days a week, and I was seeing as much theater as I could. And so then as I shifted more off of being the person making most of the calls and doing more of the consulting, I was still out every night. And my husband and I did start to take Sundays off. But I kid you not, when I say that we frequently saw six to eight shows a week. There were definitely some Saturdays when we would see three. Wow, it was wild. Yeah. And that's on top of when I was actually in rehearsal myself, or I'd be in rehearsal all day and then go to see a show at night, or we'd be in previews. So when you're in previews, you're rehearsing during the day and then you're trying out the work at night. So it was frequently a 14 to 16 hours workday.
[13:52] Katie: You must have been just living, breathing, dreaming it all the time.
[13:57] Kel: It was it was fun. It was like when I would get on the subway, I would always run into people I know. My mom would say, she's from a town, not a terribly small town in Pennsylvania. She'd say, you run into more people when you're going from your house to Midtown than I run into when I go to the supermarket. And I'd say, yeah, because we're all living the same thing. And I did. I connected with so many people and always felt like my community was around me. And it really is as much as it's a challenging career. It's just like a lovely, supportive people that I encountered all the time.
[14:31] Katie: So you had that experience for around 15 years or so, and then you shifted now full time to just doing fundraising, and now you have that balance and you also fundraising.
[14:42] Kel: Yes, exactly. I mean, the other crazy thing is that my husband and I have relocated our primary residence from New York City to this small island off the coast of Portland, Maine. So we're back and forth to New York whenever we you know, I'm now working predominantly remotely from my favorite place, the place that I thought we would retire to someday, but in no way thought this was a place we could be now, you know, before I talk to you, it's early. Not early, it's in the morning here in Maine. But I actually took the dog for a walk and so I was enjoying the ocean and the salt air before I did this. It's and Michael, my husband and I have dinner together every night. And, yeah, life has slowed down in a different way, and it's just a different season, and I'm really enjoying the difference at the moment.
[15:34] Katie: Nice. There's a different season for everything and for different moments in our life. And so it sounds to me like you found more of that balance and maybe you didn't crave that balance as much when you had that theater lifestyle because you loved it so much. But then came a time and there was a shift, and now you think, well, this is nice too.
[15:51] Kel: Exactly. And it wasn't an option. I mean, every decision I made at that point in my life was about what am I doing that's going to help grow and sustain my obviously, you know, being on a small island in Maine was not part of that, you know, when we weren't so much about doing things over the Internet and in a remote situation. So life has changed for all of us. And I was just in a privileged situation that I could really take some time and make some shifts in my life that are really working right now.
[16:24] Katie: Fantastic. And coming back to fundraising, when you help people with it, so you mentioned already being authentic, having empathy, how did they build these relationships? Because you also said it wasn't a one off thing, that you see fundraising as more efficient if it's actually a relationship and not a one off. So how can they build these relationships?
[16:45] Kel: Such a good question, I would say. I mean, it really is about networking similarly to anything else that we're doing. And again, I forget coming from a career as a theater director that was all about networking, that it's fascinating to talk to people in other careers that don't have that. So I think part of it is truly keeping your eyes open and your ears attuned to people who have a similar interest or the more that we talk about the thing for which we're raising funds, we then figure out oh, who else would you might know that might also be interested. So I think that's also fine especially in a one to one ask type situation, whether someone says yes or no to say is there anyone in your circle that you think might be interested in this opportunity? I think all of the marketing things that we are also using for our businesses we can use in that way. And so I do think it's really important that it's not just random cold asks. I mean everyone that I would reach out to when I was doing this fundraising myself was someone who had already seen a show at that particular theater or someone who's donated before or somebody who has a connection to someone who's donated before. So I think that it works best when there's already a foundation. Even if the person we're asking, we have to remind them what that foundation was know? I actually met you at sarah's birthday party two years ago. And you mentioned that you were also really curious about how to get involved with environmental mean, it's just about always keeping our eyes and ears open and putting ourselves in situations where we're going to meet those people who may want to help us. And that's really the way to start that is to be like and also go with your intuition of I feel like this is someone who may have some interest and to know that most people will say no and that's okay. And that in itself is a gift. And also just the idea if it is a no, there's a way to unravel that no a bit more and figure out what are they saying no to. Are they saying no to the fact that you made an actual philanthropic ask? Are they saying no because this month isn't a great month for them? Are they saying no because they just donated someplace else? Are they saying no because they never give in this example of to the environment for whatever reason you listen to what is that no about and is that no a long term no or a short term no and how to just kind of break out why are they saying no? Or they say no because they're just accustomed to if somebody asks them for something kind of putting up their guards and figure out is there a way to talk through that and see if actually they did want to get involved.
[19:32] Katie: I think what you said about knowing in advance that you'll receive more no's than yes is key because if you go totally fine with your hopes high and this will be I think it's more about building that process and after a while you do get a yes need to be very resilient. How did you manage that? How did you manage the sort of ups and downs and you thought that would be a yes. And they say no at the last minute. And you were really hoping on this? Yes. Because it made such a difference. How did you manage that?
[19:59] Kel: That's such a good question. I think that I just really trusted that how much I love what I'm fundraising for is going to lead me to the right people. And so, I mean, don't be wrong. There were days that were hard and days that were frustrating when I was not taking it personally, when I was able to. I think that's the thing is sounds a little wild, but to really invest in the conversation with the person and really share everything that you can share about why specifically you're passionate about this cause and listen to the other person and figure out what's the potential in with them, but at the same time truly not be invested in the outcome of the conversation. It's really hard. But to be like, I'm just going to give what I've got and I'm going to work really hard to think about all the different ways I want to communicate my passion to this person and I want to figure out what's actually going to work for this particular individual. But at the same time, I'm going to make that the work of the day. You can't control whether someone is going to say yes or no. You really can't. What you can control is, did you really try all of the avenues and did you move away from the conversation feeling good about your interaction as opposed to Icky? Did you walk away feeling good about it? And that's what you can control. You can't control because you could be the best fundraiser. And some days it's just luck of the draw. Sometimes it feels like a needle in a haystack, and that's challenging. But I do train a lot of people who are artists to be fundraisers. So, again, they're used to that degree of rejection. They're used to those ODS, and that's something that they're accustomed to.
[21:53] Katie: Interesting. I like this whole stoic approach, not focusing on what you can't control, all of your emphasis on what you can control. Yeah.
[22:03] Kel: The other thing, and this is also I'd say another when you ask about tips, another big tip I'd say is doing what you can to not comment on the numerical amount of your ask and to not personalize that. So when I was fundraising actively, I wasn't thinking about how much $500 meant to me. I was like, that's the particular ask that given the research on this person, given the scope of this project for which we're raising money, that feels appropriate of how much we're going to ask this person. And I'm not going to personalize that for myself. I'm not going to think about we're all, as Sandra, the woman I work with, Toner, likes to say, we're all a research group of one, so we can have our own thoughts about it, but that is far from necessarily what the other person is thinking. Necessarily what the other person is thinking. So I'm always thinking about being as personal as possible in all parts of the ask other than the particular number. I also encourage people to not verbally qualify it to say, well, could you just do $25? You don't know that person might truly be changing their budgetary habits for a month in order to support a $25 gift. Not going to say just also not going to say, I know it's a lot, but because for that person, $1,000 gift might not be a lot. So I train people to just let the number go. And then the best part of it, Katie, is then I say hold for the silence. So you make an ask and you say, is there a world in which you could do $500? And then you just wait and wait for them. And they might say, it's a moment if you're in person to go ahead and eat a bite of your lunch or whatnot if you're on the phone, they might say, hello, are you still there? And you say, absolutely. I'm just giving you a moment to process and see if this is something in which you may have some interest. So it's a moment within the craft of the ask to give them some space and honor them, kind of working through what you've proposed to them.
[24:13] Katie: I can tell you a real expert at it, and I can tell you really enjoy it.
[24:17] Kel: I do.
[24:20] Katie: Connection also with the people.
[24:22] Kel: Absolutely.
[24:24] Katie: You don't get to do the amount of hours that you did for fundraising without enjoying it.
[24:29] Kel: No. And I guess that's the other thing, right? I would just say in a larger sense, I think we should really work to create lives for ourselves that are only things that really give us joy and that give us a way to express our own passion and the best sides of ourselves. And fundraising has been that for me. And now coaching people and training people how to fundraise and advising them, that gives me that same feeling as it did when I was the one actually making the ask. But you don't know unless you try. And that's the other thing. It's worth a shot, because if this is something that one can tap into for themselves, it's really powerful to be able to think I can help raise money for things that are important to me, whether that's philanthropic causes or starting a business. And it's a skill that not everybody has. So it's really if that's something we can cultivate in ourselves, it gives us a lot of agency and a lot of power moving forward in whatever we want.
[25:25] Katie: Absolutely. Yes. So powerful what you just shared. We're already coming close to the last few minutes of the episode. It has flown by. What would you like to leave the audience with? What would be your last sort of nugget of advice or tip to help them with their fundraising journey.
[25:44] Kel: I went to a larger thought of just this idea of, like, for me, my big dream shifted, and that that was okay. It wasn't just okay. It's been awesome. So I just want to encourage people who might have, like me, tons of to do lists, tons of manifestation, work done, of, here are all the things that I want to do in life. And then sometimes the world changes and or we change and our goals and our dreams shift, and that's not just okay. It can actually be amazing. And that was something that, two and a half years ago, I never would have imagined that I was in this circumstance that I'm in now. And I just feel a lot of gratitude, specifically about fundraising. I just would say only do it for things you're super passionate about and get really clear about specifically why you're passionate and why other people might be passionate that's the same or different than yours. And that's the best place to start because it really is, like I said, just about building on connection. And it's not transactional, it's relational.
[26:50] Katie: And I love what you said about the big dream can shift, because I think especially people like what you were doing that are in something like theater, and it was their dream their whole life. And as a kid, it's hard for them to sort of imagine that maybe there's another.
[27:04] Kel: Yeah, I mean, I was living my dream, so it's like, how could there even be something else out there? And now it's very exciting to be living a different version of a dream that I had no idea even existed when I was a kid. So I feel really grateful for the time I had in theater as a director, and I'm also really excited for what my life is becoming in this new way.
[27:27] Katie: So amazing. Thank you so much, Kelsey.
[27:29] Kel: Thank you, Katie. Yeah, it's so nice.
[27:33] Katie: Thank you so much for being here today.
[27:35] Kel: It's my pleasure. Thank you.
[27:41] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be Show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback. So let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical, and focused day ahead.