[00:00] That cultural story has a large interplay with why we can't turn off our phones.
[00:05] Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddock here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:41] Today's guest is coming all the way from Tasmania. Danielle C is the co founder of Spacemakers, a productivity consulting group for busy leaders. His book Spacemaker how to Unplug, Unwind and Think Clearly in the Digital Age. Won the Australian Business Book Award in 2021. He is a trainer, coach and keynotes speaker. Danielle has worked with CEOs, executives and senior professionals throughout Australia and beyond. So wonderful to have you here today, Danielle. Thank you for tuning in.
[01:18] Yeah, thanks for having me here, Katie.
[01:20] And like we discussed, a bit off air, we couldn't be further apart, tasmania and Sweden. So these are some of the benefits of technology, at least.
[01:29] Yes. Fantastic. We really are a long way away from each other. But look, this is live and in person in many ways, using zoom. So thanks for catching up.
[01:39] Absolutely. I'd like to begin with your book, Space Makers. I think it's a wonderful title and it's so important. And you mentioned we spoke a bit before about this, but we need to make pace in order to make space, and I think that's a wonderful place to start. So would you mind clearing and explaining what you mean by that?
[01:59] Yeah, so, look, I'm a productivity trainer and coach. I think we're in a similar field on the other side of the world and working with leaders and executives. I've just noticed that there's a bit of a pattern in terms of busyness and productivity, which really started out my investigation into the book. And clearly you need to use technology to be productive nowadays. And if you imagine graphing productivity against technology usage, well, then it's almost like there's a line that the more technology you use, the more productive you become. But then I noticed a bunch of leaders and executives who were using lots of technology and really good at it, actually, but they were just, I don't know, really distracted and they were busy doing the wrong things and never had space to think or rest. And their relationships were kind of all over the place in the sense of they just didn't have time for people that really mattered. Their strategies went all over the place and I just thought, well, what's happening here? They're really good at technology and they're really not productive. And so I went on this journey to look at the research and it's actually more like an upside down curve, like an upside down you where there comes a point where if you keep using technology, you end up plateauing. And I call that the productive middle. But if you keep going, if you're reaching for your phone first thing in the morning and last thing at night and sneaking it on the loo or toilet I don't know if you use that term where you are. If you're just constantly online all the time and you don't have this time to think creatively and strategically, to rest and reflect, be with people, then you end up being in what I call digital overuse, and the curve goes upside down. The more technology you use, the less productive you become. And so in that sense, to make pace, going back to your question is about productivity on the left hand side of that curve, where you need to get your inbox to zero, to use calendars to be effective in using multiple apps and communication tools to be productive. Then you reach the productive middle. And then you need a set of skills nowadays, post COVID, where all of culture is now in digital overuse, where actually to be more productive, you need to unplug and unwind and think clearly, which means unplugging from technology on a regular basis. And I call them the habits of being a space maker. And the irony about productivity nowadays is you need the habits of pace using tech well, and you need the habits of space not using technology well. And that's a new world for us. And if you look at productivity generally, I think more and more of us need to focus on doing less and not more. And that's where we get our true productivity gains and our attention gains nowadays.
[04:44] Yes, it's so well put. And I like this idea of the curve and using it to be productive on 1.1 aspect of it, but then on the other side of the bell curve, it's yes, resting and unplugging. I didn't actually even consider that technology makes us productive because I really thinking of how it's a distraction, it's to do it less. But it's true that for instance, I live off my calendar and I have everything time blocked in my Outlook calendar. So without that, I know I'd be a lot less productive in the way I work. So it's true that there is an aspect of technology that does enable high levels of productivity, but then we reach that plateau. I suppose one major question that comes to my mind is how can people know when they've reached the max where okay, they've used technology to help them to level up their productivity, but now it's starting to deteriorate their performance, how can they know when they reach that plateau?
[05:46] So firstly, I don't think it's a linear process. I don't think you're in digital overuse or you're in like I don't know, I don't know technology enough and I need to use it more. So let's say going back to well, probably looking at my life and also the leaders I coach. It's quite possible to be terrible at your inbox and have your emails going everywhere and not have skills on that left side of the curve and at the same time be addicted to Candy Crush. Do you know what I mean? So it's not necessarily one side or the other. We need both skills in tandem. But in terms of the symptoms of digital overuse or sliding down that right side of the curve, they're the kind of symptoms people intuitively feel, particularly post COVID. So the zoom fatigue is a classic. That sense that I'm just sick of looking at a screen or I'm just tired of always being online and I crave for kind of human contact or simplicity or a sense of quiet. It's that feeling that you're just constantly busy and you're always moving, but you don't have the space to think really deeply. Like your external life is driving you, not your inner life. And there's this lack of the inner life shaping who you are at a deep level. It's the kind of symptoms where obviously you're sleep deprived. If that's a symptom because you're just using screens too much, or literally, if you just have a moment of quiet, you find it really hard to not gravitate towards something to keep you distracted. So you just find it hard to read a book or to sit in the bath and just think, do you know what I mean? To relax or just to have a conversation and then not be wondering how many hearts you have on Instagram. It's those internal processes that are digitally driven, that shape, that demonstrate that there's something going on in your heart and in your head and your paradigm. There's something about your relationship with the online world that might need revisiting. Does that make sense? Have you experienced stuff like that with your life or your work?
[07:43] Yes, I see exactly what you mean. And yes, I have coached people who, for instance, they had a huge reluctance to I wouldn't say resting, but maybe going for a walk at lunch or even taking a Friday afternoon off. It seemed to them like something that was crazy or finishing earlier at six and then unwinding. And it is making me think of because I read a lot and I talk a lot about the books I read and then a lot of people have said, and especially in the last few years, that they struggled with reading. And I think it's because they're used to that fast dopamine that you get through Instagram or technology or even Netflix and films that somehow a book seems boring or slow or not doesn't give you that boost. But I never broke that habit, so it wasn't todd for me because I don't particularly enjoy being on my phone. So in that way I haven't experienced it myself. But I have coached people and seen that people do struggle to re guide their attention towards something more mindful and calm. It's a whole sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system. They're always in the go go action mode, and somehow they can't switch it back the other way.
[08:53] Yeah, sounds like you're doing better than I am with my technology addiction. So there's an author that said that I teach best what I most need to learn. And I think my battle with space has been this constant thing for years, and I usually win. But I'm also quite aware that if I didn't have these patterns and rhythms in my life, if I didn't unplug each day and each week and each year in these kind of disciplined or habitual ways, that I think, I would be totally wired, like you said. I would just be one of these hyperactive people, these A type personalities that just burn themselves to the ground and burn others to the ground with them. So, yeah, I admit that I have certainly had my own challenges.
[09:41] I think, yes, we definitely teach best what we struggle most with. I know that in my case, although I'm very interested in productivity, I often focused on prioritizing because I struggled to prioritize on being focused, because I struggled to have one or two key projects and I wanted to do 20 things. Those were my struggles. And then recently, I've been working a lot on the hyperachiever mindset and the self compassion. And this is something I see a lot with people in high position and leaders and people who have awards, and you're probably like that too. These people crave the achievement in order to feel good about themselves. And so I'm working a lot on myself and with my clients, on self compassion and doing a great job having high performance, but not depending on that external reward to feel good about yourself. So we all have our struggles is what I'm trying to say. And even if I'm not addicted to my phone, there's other things I definitely had to work on. I'd love to go back to some of the habits that people can put in place in order to unplug and rest. So you said you're very disciplined about this and you've trained yourself to put these practices in your life. What do you think are the ones that make the biggest difference?
[10:53] Yeah, so look, I used to be a physiotherapist. I don't know if you call them physiotherapists where you are, or physical therapists in the States. And what I realized is I had a bunch of treatment techniques, but if someone came into me in my clinic with a shoulder pain, I would need to spend a bit of time diagnosing. Is it a bursitis or muscles or instability? Once you know the pathology or the reason for the pain, well, then it's easier to target the treatment. And I do think it's similar with space making. So I'm very happy to give some general tips that work for most people based on the research. But my first reflection would be that the tips generally don't work without people reflecting on their relationship with the online world and recognizing that they have a relationship and that there are changes in their brain, neuroplastic changes. You alluded to that because of the Internet practice that we're giving our brains. There are loves and longings and identity issues that relate to how we pursue external, like you mentioned, external validation through our devices. And there's also cultural stories that shape us. So all I want, I just want to pause before I answer your question and say, I really do think we need to start with our beliefs because there's a great guy called Jamon Fraser who says that our behaviors are at the end of the assembly line of our beliefs and stories. And so if we don't examine our digital story first, what I've found is I can tell an executive, turn off your phone on the weekend, don't check email. We can talk about not starting and ending the day with your phone. But if your beliefs are very entwined at a very deep level that say I'm a better person when I'm online all the time, or there's aspects of me that feel safer or I can't let go of my device, for example, well, then your beliefs and story will stop you from changing your behavior. So I hope that's okay to start with that. I think that's really important for my coaches.
[12:55] Yes, I think that's absolutely essential because people go too quickly to hear the strategies and here are the tools and if you haven't gone through the beliefs and the stories yes, absolutely. Great point. Yes, start with that.
[13:06] So look, in the book, I spend like a quarter or third of the book on the paradigm of technology and then the principles. But in terms of the practices, the last bit, there are a few really good tips actually. So look, simple tips are nice one, and people have heard this before, but it's really helpful to not start and end the day with technology. To begin the day with your own mind and your own thoughts rather than someone else's mind and someone else's noise. So most of us, or many of us reach for our phone. It's our alarm clock. And as soon as we press go in the morning, we go to whatever actually gives us affirmation and wherever our heart kind of finds its identity. So whether that be social media like Instagram or email, which is work, or the news, which is kind of just to keep in touch with everything. And again, I'm not pointing fingers because I'm quite aware that these have been my behaviors. And it just frames your mind in an unhelpful way to start the day as opposed to what I do now, which is I lie in bed, I pray, I think I reflect on my day that's coming up. I wake up slowly and I kind of try to focus on what I'm grateful or thankful for. It's a far better way to start the day than hearing about the bombings in, I don't know, the Ukraine. We can do that later, maybe ten minutes after you get up. Does that make sense? And at nighttime, reflect on your day or read a physical book or, God forbid, talk to the person who's lying in bed next to you rather than you both playing games on your phone and then saying goodnight. It's really important. So the key habit is to charge your phone and everyone's phone if you have children. I mean, the research says that eight out of ten children, teenagers, are on their phone awake at night when their parents believe that they're asleep. One in ten children in Australia check their phone more than ten times throughout the night and it impacts their mental health and their sleep. So get everyone's phone, charge it outside of the bedroom and learn to have a pause at the beginning and at the end of the day where you can make some space to think and rest and just not be wired from the beginning. One very simple tip. I mean, I hope that's useful. We've probably heard it before, right? But it's good to be reminded about why we need to do that.
[15:32] Yes, I think the why is always important. Before we go to another tip, I want to go back to what you were saying about the beliefs. So what are some of the two, three core beliefs that prevents people from implementing this? So they might hear this tip, they might read it, they might hear it in a video, and it might be that tip, it might be another one, it might be going for a walk or whatever it is. And somehow some of the beliefs behind it is preventing them from taking action and also identity. But maybe it's too much to cover beliefs and identity.
[16:04] Yeah, no, that's fair enough. Look, and I know we're in different cultures right now. I mean, you're in Sweden and I'm in Australia, but when I look at American, English, Australian culture, it's definitely built around what I call the freedom narrative, the idea that freedom is almost the ultimate value, and particularly the freedom of the individual. And freedom for us is not defined in the way it used to be. And I'm not talking about political freedom or legal freedom. I mean, I'm talking about individual personal freedom here. And we define it really as freedom. Means I have no restraint, no restrictions, no limitations on how I think, how I act. I can really do what I want, when I want without society getting in my way. Now, that doesn't really work when it comes to dieting. I'll eat what I want and that's freedom. Or I'll spend what I want and that's freedom. Or I'll drive and ignore the road rules and that's freedom. So there's clearly limitations to our freedom in most areas of our life, but we still believe that more choice in the west equals more freedom. And that when you take away my freedom to choose, therefore you're restricting my humanity. And that cultural story has a large interplay with why we can't turn off our phones. Because we haven't recognized, even in the way we see dieting and exercise, we haven't seen the value of limiting tech use for our health and happiness. Because we haven't recognized that true freedom is the ability to choose healthy, life giving limits as opposed to do what I want when I want. Does that make sense? And so what we really need to recognize from the tech perspective is that actually true freedom means we disconnect from our devices and we create an independence from our tools. So we master our technologies rather than them mastering us. It's not that we can't enjoy them and it's not that we can't get value from them, but freedom means we disconnect and we create limits deliberately and that's how we become free. And that's quite a shift in at least the Australian psyche and how we understand and speak about tech. Does that connect at all from what you see or where you are?
[18:17] Yes, I think that's a fantastic way of putting it. And I think it also is linked to some of the reluctance that people have around being organized or time blocking because it's the same, people think, oh, their whole life will be boxed. And even though you might read a million times there's creativity in organization because then your mind is clear and can be fully creative in the process, people still are reluctant to that idea. So that definitely ties to what you were saying. I think we can explore this a bit deeper because I think it's such an important concept. So what can help people to shift? What can help them to really understand that we have freedom in these constraints, that these constraints give us freedom, whether it's time blocking or constraints without a phone, what needs to happen for them to take on this new belief?
[19:07] Yeah, look, I think it's easy to go into the tech space and just say no. Particularly if you look at teenagers, don't do that, don't do this. No one likes to be told they shouldn't do this, or they, et cetera. There is a real sense where you shouldn't spend so much time on social media or you shouldn't check your inbox at 11:00 at night. And we know this, but we don't want to be told it, do we? But I also think to really captivate and challenge the freedom choice narrative or story, we really need to paint a positive image about why we're creating the disciplines of unplugging and why we're setting limitations. Because it's only a positive story, a life giving story that will give us the ability to put down something that we're actually addicted to, which is actually designed to make us addicted in order to do something else. Okay, so the no story won't work. And that's where, again, I spent a lot of time in the book talking about the research, let's say into something as simple as relationships. The research is incredible in terms of community and spending time face to face with people who you love and building broad, diverse in person like warm bodied relationships with a broad group of people. Without a doubt. And this has been extraordinarily well researched with good randomized control studies and longitudinal studies, that people who have good connections and relationships with people, they live longer, they're happier, they're healthier. A neuroscientist in this, she's like a neuroscientist who focuses on social dynamics. It's really unusual. Susan Pinker, she basically said staying in close physical contact with people who are meaningful to you is at least as important to your mortality as giving up a pack a day cigarette habit, breathing fresh air and getting cardiac rehab post like heart surgery. It really is the thing that makes us happiest to be in relationship. And yet none of that translates in terms of social media and the connectedness we have online. I'm not saying social media is bad. There are certainly benefits and I use it for business and there are some benefits to staying in touch and strengthening the in person friendships. But what we're doing across culture is we're just trading real relationship for digital relationship and it is absolutely affecting our mental health and happiness. So to answer your question, how do we change that paradigm and that freedom choice narrative? Well, let's just have something positive actually. Let's just remember that being with people is amazing and it's better when you don't have a phone. And let's retrain ourselves to value real relationships and not trade it all off for Zoom or Facebook or whatever we're trading it for. And I think if there's a genuine positive imagination for why you're doing this, whether it be relationships or deep thought, examining the inner life, resting deeply without a phone or learning a craft like music or a language, whatever your imagination for it is, that is what will help you to recognize. Yeah, there's freedom outside of tech, and there's freedom within these limits. Does that make sense?
[22:39] Yes, it does. That's wonderfully said. I feel it's so important what you just shared in terms of the importance of relationships and how that makes an impact on our well being. And it's something that people don't necessarily realize, or they realize it after some time, after several months or years, or after the last few years that we've had. And it's not as immediate as other things. So I think people don't always realize that they're missing it or that it's not how it used to be or that they feel the need to be with more people. So I think, yes, trading looking at what are the trade offs of constantly using technology or overusing it, and what can be done instead, and looking at all the positives, like you said, of, okay, if you use technology less, then you can invest in a hobby. I loved you said a craft or music. I play instruments and I love drawing and all of this. So definitely in for hobbies and dance also. And I think all those things happen because you're prioritizing them over watching the next Netflix show or whatever it is. Of course we can do both, but it's like you said, it's about having those boundaries and those limits. So I think it's a wonderfully poem.
[23:48] We're not living a balanced life. When you look at the research, I mean, I think the average American is on a screen nine to 12 hours a day. Think of that as Internet practice, as if you're practicing a piano 12 hours a day. And the research shows that we are trading everything else for online screen time. So we are living in this digital, overuse kind of world. So I'm not saying reject tech, but my assumption is that most people, particularly in the executive senior leadership space, most of us, are almost always online. So to be productive and healthy and happy, we need to broaden the neurological scorecard of what we do with our brain and with our bodies and with our life and create those pockets of space. So the more you really believe that at a heart level, the more likely you will be to unaddict yourself. And this is where we go back to the practices.
[24:46] Yes, absolutely. We're already approaching the end of the episode. This has flown by. I feel we could go in so many directions. It's so important. It's so interesting. I specifically loved what you said around the freedom and the idea that we have a freedom compared to what the reality actually is. What would you like to leave the audience with? What do you feel would be a nice last note to end on?
[25:11] Yeah, look, I just encourage us that life is so good and there are so many amazing, rich and beautiful things we can do with our life. And we don't need the research to say going for a walk without a phone makes us happier. We just know that, right? Getting into nature, spending time with our children and playing board games, reading a book, just looking at the sky or sitting by the river and just breathing fresh air and being present. Like, life is so big and we're shrinking it. And so, yeah, let's just actually live a broader, more creative, more beautiful life by making space from the online world.
[25:52] Amazing. What a beautiful note to finish on. Thank you so much for being on the show. Danielle, I really loved our conversation. Thank you for tuning in.
[26:00] No, thank you, Katie. I really appreciate being here. Thank you.
[26:06] Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Bee show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback, so let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member. Wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.