[00:00] Katie: Welcome back to the Focus B show. This is Katie Sudddhart here aka the focus b. And on this show, I interview high performers and leaders around the world to discover their secrets on peak performance, productivity, mindfulness, and leadership. So if you want to take your performance and your leadership to the next level, then you're in the right place. Listen up and connect with the magic.
[00:36] Katie: Welcome to a new episode of the Focus B show. I am thrilled to be here today with Shuan Shuan. Yu. Shuan Shuan is an executive coach that specializes in leadership agility. She was named one of the top 101 global coaching leaders and she is the author of The Eight Paradoxes of Leadership Agility. Hey Trent, great to have you on the podcast today. Thank you for joining.
[01:08] Chuen Chuen: Thanks for having me, Katie. Really nice to see you.
[01:11] Katie: You are an expert on agile leadership, so the first place that makes sense to begin is to ask how can leaders develop a more agile mindset?
[01:23] Chuen Chuen: Yeah, great question. I think right now in the business world, it's a lot about perspectives. I coach many high performing leaders. It's never an issue with IQ experience nor the knowledge, but a lot of times, especially right now, with the impact of COVID-19 and everything else that's happening around the world, it's really the mindset that's limiting them at times. So if you talk about then agile leadership is about embracing an agile mindset first. And what does that mean? That means we got to expand our perspectives very intentionally. We got to get to know every person in the workforce because they are likely to be very different from us. We have to be culturally sensitive, generationally sensitive as well. And understanding all these perspectives then will help leaders respond better and be relevant in the future.
[02:18] Katie: Yes, that makes sense. And I feel that what you're saying is particularly relevant in today's context. I'm wondering, do you have an example, for instance, that illustrates the power of agile leadership?
[02:32] Chuen Chuen: An example would be, I think for listeners listening in right now, if you evaluate yourself, if you have been highly effective and successful in the past, perhaps in a previous workplace, and now that your scope has changed, now that we are breaking boundaries, right. Teams are no longer working in silos. You want them to work in a matrix organization. So kind of the rules of engagement have changed, but somehow what made you successful in the past no longer works and you're wondering why. I think that is one typical example where people realize that they need to do something about the mindset. So a lot of the leaders that I work with, they are in such a situation where they used to be highly successful, but somehow it's almost like overnight things just changed and they are wondering why. So where agile leadership can really benefit and help them is helping them reformulate the pathways to success. And when I talk about pathway to success. There are really multiple pathways for every unique leader to succeed. We are no longer talking about just one leadership style. We are talking about expanding the breadth and depth of every unique individual, unleashing their best part of themselves and to be principled, to be guided by values, yet at the same time be very adaptable and flexible at the same time. And I think with that mindset, with that flexibility, versatility, then leaders can continue to be successful. They are satisfied, they are fulfilled, they achieve great outcomes, not just for themselves, with a team. I think with people, that is where all the meaning is and for the organization benefiting humankind.
[04:22] Katie: So from what you're saying, being driven by your values and having that flexible approach is what will make the difference. I'm wondering, could you explain for people who are listening that maybe aren't familiar with the term agile leadership, what that actually entails?
[04:39] Chuen Chuen: All right, so I wrote it in my book, title eight, paradoxes of Leadership Agility. Just a very simple definition. So agile leadership, and in other words we can call it leadership agility refers to your ability to navigate complexities and uncertainties while maintaining a sense of ease and authenticity. So I think right now we live in a really VUCA world. So complex, highly uncertain. But the inner piece is the part that's missing for a lot of leaders. They want to go through that day by day knowing that they have done the best that is possible, right? They want to be able to accept whatever outcomes that comes up from the decision, whether it's good or bad. And that, I think, gives people the inner peace that we have done our best and that it is good enough. I think there's another part that a lot of leaders want is to be authentic. How do I live out to be? The truest, most real person is an existential and a lifelong pursuit of who am I as a person? And this answer needs to be answered. And this question needs to be answered. We are always searching for what's our reason to be? Why do we exist? What is the legacy I want to leave behind? And as we go through different seasons in life, that definition has to change as well. So to me then, agile leadership is not about being the smartest person in the room. Neither is it about always being able to foresee what will happen in the future because we know that's not possible. It's about how do we continue to ride the waves of uncertainty, lots of complexity where there's no one fixed answer, and to be very satisfied, fulfilled, enriched human beings. To me, there is the essence of.
[06:30] Katie: Agile leadership navigating uncertainty. I think that is definitely something that everyone needs to learn, like we said earlier, especially in today's world. But I feel in general, everything is uncertain. So the better we're able to cope, the more peaceful we'll feel, which is what you said. This reminds me a lot of Stoic philosophy. I wonder if you've done a lot of parallels between Stoicism and agile leadership.
[07:02] Chuen Chuen: Not at this moment, but it's definitely good for me to look into. You know, I just want to extend a little bit on this ability to cope with uncertainty. There's a report that's been released by McKinsey lately on the skills that citizens need to thrive in the future of work and coping with uncertainty came up tops in quite a few categories. So this, I think, in addition to the leadership soft skills, it attack skills. This part, being able to cope with ambiguity and uncertainty, is something that all leaders, no matter which sector, which age group, needs to get better in.
[07:44] Katie: So what could be one habit that leaders could put in place that would help them to be more agile and maybe cope better with uncertainty?
[07:53] Chuen Chuen: I think habits. I like that you asked this question because in my methodology I advocate a lot about high performance habits. It's all these small actions. They are very easy for us to do, very repeatable. That gives us the biggest rewards. A lot of people think about leadership transformation as a revolution, but I always think about it as an evolution. So, number one, habits leaders need to put in place to me is about how do you invite perspectives into your mind? Because if we don't have open conversations with people, to hear them, to really seek to understand, like what Stephen Covey says, right? Really seek to understand, then our perspectives will always stay static, which means that we cannot be agile. I like Einstein's quotes, you cannot solve the same problem at the same level of consciousness that created it in the first place. Right? So it's all about perspectives. Every time we feel stuck, we need to have a habit for us to ask the right questions, to dialogue with the right people, to shift our mindset, to shift our perspectives. Because as you move, you will start seeing that there are so many possibilities and they are not as stuck as we initially thought. It's just a matter of standing at a different position to look at that situation. And it always gives clients many, many new perspectives that that possibility was there, but I didn't see it. But now that you ask me, for example, to take a different perspective, even just guessing, just making an assumption, what do you think this person would say? What do you think this person is thinking about? So you could do it with yourself, you could really do it in a real dialogue. The key habit is to expand and widen your perspective because without that you can't be agile. You are always looking at things at the same level. And in my coaching model that I've documented in my book, where I talk about how leaders overcome the eight leadership paradoxes, the first step of the coaching model is reconstruct the map. And I describe it using a metaphor like map makers drew that map for your interpretation. Right? But if you have another map maker, the map probably might look different. So there's also this saying that the map is not the territory. It is then very important for us to look at reality for what it really is, because that's where the perspectives do come in. Without looking at reality for what it truly is, then we are misguided into responding inappropriately. So I think back to that question, what is the one habit? How do we expand perspectives? By asking the right questions and having the real conversation with people.
[10:53] Katie: I feel this is so insightful because when we're able to change our perspective, it really reveals new possibilities. And it helps us to realize that there is no such thing as just one truth. So we might have one core belief that it's this direction or this opinion or this way of doing things. And the more we're open minded also, which is where the flexibility comes in, the more we're able to embrace other opinions and see that there's no such thing as this one unique direction, that there might be a preference, but there's lots of different ones. I'm interested to hear the other steps of your coaching model, the reform coaching. So the first one is reconstruct the map. What are the other three steps?
[11:41] Chuen Chuen: Yeah, so first one reconstruct the map. Second one is to refresh your lens. So refreshing your lens means looking at assumptions, biases, prejudices, or over generalizations that could have formed over the years. Now, all of us have these generalizations. That's how we make sense of the world. But sometimes generalizations don't work for us anymore. For example, a common one, if I work with, say, Gen X clients who are working with millennial leaders for the first time, they may give them a label like oh, they are strawberry generation. At least we have this term in Singapore, strawberry generation, meaning that they are damaged very easily with that generalization. It is not healthy. It doesn't help you appreciate the value that millennials bring to the organization.
[12:35] Katie: Right.
[12:36] Chuen Chuen: So refreshing the lens means that we are challenging what we think is true. We are challenging our biases, our assumptions. I think another common one might be, oh, women tend to be timid and women leaders are not as bold as male leaders. That could be yet another stereotype. So again, challenging norms, challenging what we believe to be the gospel truth because they may or may not be true. And I think it's worth reexamining these thoughts because they unknowingly catch us in.
[13:08] Katie: Right?
[13:08] Chuen Chuen: So second step is to refresh the lens. Now, the third step is to renew your identity. And this one I talk about. What is your leadership persona as a leader? Who do you think that leader is supposed to be? Is the leader, the conductor, the teacher or the cheerleader or the commander who is standing in front and asking all the soldiers to charge forward. Because with each persona the leader will behave in a different way. I've given an example. Let's say, for example, in the past I used to work with a client who is in the compliance unit in the pharmaceutical plant. And compliance she, being the compliance head, was at Logger Hits with the commercial hit because for the commercial side, their role was to I mean, the sole purpose was to push our products really quickly. But for the compliance side they have to make sure that the drugs are safe and then they are at loggerhase. It seems like their goals are set up to be antagonistic. And then so I asked the client so what is the role you play here? What's your identity here? Are you supposed to be the discipline mistress or are you supposed to be like a facilitator or the cheerleader? And she thought about it and she realized that she's not there to be the discipline mistress to tell her colleagues that oh, you are doing this wrong, you are doing that wrong. But she's supposed to play the role of being supportive, right? They are on the same team. Let's work together. So what can I do to meet my objectives and also help you be successful so that our organization is successful as a whole? So it has to do with the identity so that's renewing the identity. I find that very powerful because for example, if you work with, say, leaders who don't delegate well they may think that they have to carry everything on their shoulders, right? They have to do the heavy lifting to show their value. But if you put it another way to them then they realize that to help nurture the next batch of leaders it's not to charge in front and do all the work for them. It is to coach them to do the weightlifting properly, right? And better, more efficiently and that's much more empowering. So third step to renew the identity and the last one is to rebuild capabilities. I intentionally left the capabilities at the last stage because I think a lot of leadership development programs focus too much on skills, too little on mindset. And I think then there is a pitfall why billions of dollars is invested into leadership development and yet we are seeing leadership gaps almost everywhere and you see the rise and fall of organizations. Is it just about the superiority of the product? I don't think so. I think it's a leadership deficiency at some level. So really looking at why is a mindset shift needed from the first three stages? Then we talk about what are the skills I need to build in myself? Then with the right mindset I will then be able to apply them, put them to practice and then you will see outcomes shift once behavior changes, fantastic.
[16:39] Katie: So reconstruct the map, refresher the lens, renew the identity and rebuild the skills. And I like the fact that you finish with that step because inner work is always more important or a bigger base. And I think there is a tendency in general to look for a shortcut, to look for the skill you can use or the strategy you can implement. But if you haven't done the mindset work or the belief work, or looked at your map and your perspective, then the strategy will only take you that far. You'll block if there isn't the mindset there.
[17:12] Chuen Chuen: Exactly. I always joke with my clients, this is not microwave. This is slow cooking. Slow cooking. We got to double boil the soup to get the essence out. We cannot microwave it.
[17:27] Katie: No, you can't microwave it. This is the shortcut, fast cut. What is one of the top eight paradoxes of leadership agility? Because you mentioned eight in your books and which one is the most common?
[17:42] Chuen Chuen: Right. Okay. I think there are two that comes up tops. But if I were to choose, of course, then you'll be paradox one. That's precisely why I wrote it first in the book. That's tasks versus people. So for many organizations, leaders tend to be very result driven. I think Anna rightly. So right. For a profit making business, if you are in the reds, then it results into loss of countless jobs. Right. So I do understand the need for tasks to be completed so that we can meet the revenue goals. But at the same time, on the other end of the paradox, people are also extremely important. So this is the one that comes up very often, especially leaders who come onto the calls with me and they say, I've got this feedback from my 360 leadership assessment and I've been said that I'm very task oriented, I'm a taskmaster. I'm not human centered enough. So I need to be more people oriented. But, you know, I find the interesting thing is as they speak, as the conversation progresses, I realize that all they are people oriented. It's just that they don't project that part of themselves. They deeply want others to succeed. So it is not inauthentic, it's not faking, it everybody. Of course I think I'm biased because there's a certain kind of clients who would come to coaching, right? They want to be the best version of themselves. That's why they come to coaching. So these clients that I work with, they have an inner desire to want to help others succeed. They are actually people oriented in their hearts. It's just that the system, it could be the education, the experiences made them always speak about the task. So I think looking at this paradox, they realize that they can fulfill both the task and be people oriented at the same time. It doesn't mean that if you are a caring manager, then you are a soft one. Right. You could be firm, assertive, and at the same time be very clear about what the goals are. When someone doesn't meet deadlines or doesn't meet your expectations, you can deal with them with respect and love. Right? So I think it's how do you put two ends of the paradox together and create a better workplace that's more human centered, that has more meaning in it? Like, we are not there machines just trying to churn out results. We are there co creating an experience in a workplace that's worth staying in and building relationships with people outside of the home. And I think so then this paradox to me is quite close to my heart. Because even for me, growing up, I was very result driven. I still am okay, I have to confess, I still am very result oriented. As an entrepreneur, I have too, right? But in my interactions with people, then I think the question is, can I bring in a human element? How do I humanize leadership development? How do I look at my clients for their uniqueness, see, hear and understand them? Who are they as human beings and help them achieve great results? So that's where the tasks and people also come in?
[21:15] Katie: Yes. I think it's interesting that you said that they are human centered or they do care about people, but somehow they've prioritized the results. In your experience, why do you feel that they sort of hide behind the results instead of focusing more on the people in the company?
[21:33] Chuen Chuen: I think there's a lot of associating the success with the outcomes, like they will frequently talk about, this is my responsibility as a people manager. Getting results, delivering on outcomes is my responsibility. And being driven by that personal sense of responsibility or wanting to achieve great results, I think it pushes them, and sometimes they don't know how to step back from it. They don't understand that I think at that point in time, they have not seen the possibilities. How do I motivate someone to deliver great outcomes? I'm not telling leaders to settle for mediocre work because we need to continue to deliver, even if we have diminishing resources. But it is understanding how the human motivation works, right? Typically, most of us at least, I can say for growing up in Singapore, the system is probably if you don't deliver as a student, if you don't deliver, you get scolded by your teachers, you get reprimanded, right? You get some harsh treatment. But if you look into motivation, what is that state of flow that we really should try to get ourselves into? Is it by doing something that we are naturally talented at? Is it being able to use strengths every day? That's why I use Gallup's Clifton strengths extensively in my work with leaders pursuing agile leadership. Only when we are using our strengths, then we can be motivated. So when leaders don't know how else to motivate others, the only way they can fall back too, will be the prior experience being reprimanded by teachers, by parents. I mean, as a parent, I'm guilty of it as well, that if my children misbehave, sometimes I will turn into the angry parent or the stern teacher.
[23:37] Katie: Right.
[23:37] Chuen Chuen: So sometimes because they don't know any other way to respond.
[23:42] Katie: Right.
[23:43] Chuen Chuen: And it seems like we have to bully people into giving us good results, but what if we can inspire people to deliver great results? I think that takes a different angle, different skills, maybe different tactics to get people to influence them, to take certain actions. Yeah, I think that's that, yes.
[24:07] Katie: Influencing them and not reprimanding them into getting results. I often feel that we do achieve much better outcomes and results if we feel supported than if we push ourselves. And this is the same whether it's coming from the outside, a boss that's encouraging us or pushing us, but also from within. Having compared both with myself and with clients, if I'm pushing myself and saying I'm not good enough and I should be doing better and why am I getting poor results? That only takes me so far. But if there's first a place of acceptance and acknowledgment, of good results and encouragement, and then just striving for improvement, for the joy of it, for the influence, the contribution of it, I feel this goes a lot further, so it's very similar. I'd like to finish on a bit of a tangent because we have a few minutes left and I'm very curious as to your opinion around agility and resilience. So how are agility and resilience connected?
[25:07] Chuen Chuen: Great question. Someone asked me this question this morning, so I believe everything happens for a reason. So it's great to me, resilience. How does one person become resilient? When I'm able to bounce back from adversities, when I can take failure as a learning point? When I feel encouraged and optimistic that there's something else I can do that's within my control to make it better the next time?
[25:35] Katie: Right.
[25:35] Chuen Chuen: There's a certain sense of that level of control over the outcome if I act in a certain way now, where does agility come in then? If we are always able to adapt and respond and change course according to what life or work is teaching us? The feedback. If we are taking feedback and using it to feed forward into our next action, we naturally then will be able to bounce back. Because in my mind, instead of looking at a negative result as a failure, I'm now seeing it as, oh, this is feedback. That what I'm doing previously doesn't quite work. So what else can I try now? So it's a lot more forward looking, it's a lot more experimental, it's less final. This result doesn't summarize your life, it doesn't mean that that's your potential. There's always that possibility that when you take the feedback to feed forward into a better, more strategic action, you will get better results. So there's always that chance that you can change the future. And I think that increases people's resilience. This morning when someone asked me this question, I also said this I work with so many clients from nearly 40 countries and one client's comments really resonated with me. He said, Look, Chenchen, I don't think my work has become any easier. I still have a lot of problems, lots of firefighting I have to do, and I got to always stay ahead, right? So the stress is high, but after coaching with you, I feel more inner peace, I feel more calm. I feel that it's okay, life can throw me any curveballs and I can just take anything. It's fine if I drop one or two because that's not final, right? So that kind of inner peace, that kind of resilience doesn't come unless you have the right mindset. Looking at failures differently, looking at life as a series of experiments, and also being more self, compassionate, and I think all these things brings up the resilience.
[27:50] Katie: Yes. So the flexibility, compassion and the change of perspective mindset around, for example, failure helps you to develop a more resilient approach. I think this makes sense. They're definitely tied together and it feels more experimental, which I think is an interesting word you use. So instead of it feeling like win or lose situation at every moment, it's more trying things out, experimenting. And if it does work out in one way, great. Continuing if not changing. And that really is what resilience is about, is being able to persevere through these types of obstacles. I've really loved our interview, chuan shane, what is the last tip recommendation you would like to give to people listening who want to work on their leadership or agile leadership?
[28:38] Chuen Chuen: I have put together a very short, simple course, just a 1 hour recorded webinar where I talk about how you can start embracing agile leadership. Because it starts with a mindset as a concept is maybe a sexy concept, right? But how do you put it into practice? I think that is the question most people want an answer for. So in that short training, I will walk through three simple steps that anybody can practice on a daily basis. It involves challenging, looking at your paradoxes, that's one. It involves strengthening the five inner voices, which is part of my agile leadership framework. Step by step, I use metaphors in the work to help them form an anchor. And then how do you build high performance habits, something that we discussed earlier, right? Other than that one habit, there are many other habits that can form as well. And all this is put into a simple introductory course. So if listeners would love to join that, they can do it at no charge or just at a minimal fee later on, depending on when they listen to this interview. But I'll send you the link later.
[29:48] Katie: Fantastic. Thank you so much fenchein for being on the show. Thank you for sharing all of your insights and knowledge or parts of your insights and knowledge on agile leadership or leadership agility. Thank you for being here today.
[30:00] Chuen Chuen: Thank you, Katie, for having me. It's been a pleasure.
[30:03] Katie: Thank you.
[30:08] Katie: Thank you so much for tuning in today to the Focus Be show. I would absolutely love to hear your feedback, so let me know in an Apple review or YouTube comment what was most valuable for you, and feel free to share this episode with a friend or a family member wishing you a wonderful, magical and focused day ahead.