Episode 203: Interview with Author Mark Gober

Gober to the podcast. Hello Mark, how are you. I'm doing well? Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, thank you so much for coming on it. And again thanks to I think Ryan who linked us up. Why don't you go ahead and take a moment and introduce yourself to the audience.

be working in New York. I was at a large bank called UBS, so it was one of the banks that was having problems at the time, but it was also a bank that advised other financial institutions, and that was my role within the bank, was to help other financial institutions like insurance companies, asset managers, banks. So it was quite a stressful period and I left that firm in twenty ten to join a firm based in Boston

and Silicon Valley. First I moved to Boston and then spent the majority of my time in Silicon Valley advising technology focused companies on their intellectual property and the way in which their patented technologies related to their business strategy. And was very interested in all that work while I

was in it. But in twenty sixteen, at the firm in Silicon Valley, I started listening to podcasts and then reading books and scientific papers about the nature of consciousness, and what I was finding was that there was a lot of evidence suggesting that there is a part of our being that transcends the body. So I was getting into topics that were forcing me into topics or into concepts that I would have called spiritual, and at the time I was very resistant to that. I was more

of an atheist diagnostic. I thought science had taught us that anything in the spiritual domain was part of a superstition from the past that we had. We've moved beyond that with our scientific findings. So this was a big shock for me to learn there were really there was an abundance of science coming from the University of Virginia, their Division of Perceptual Studies at the Medical School, the Institute of Noetic Sciences, Princeton University, and a whole host

of others. The US government conducting remote viewing programs, which is basically psychic spying. And this has led me on a journey now almost ten years to explore not only the nature of reality and what a human being is, but most recently, to explore where is it that we live? Because initially my exploration was okay, if there's something in consciousness that's beyond the body, maybe our brains, like an

antenna receiver or a filter mechanism. And so I was focused on who are we and why are we here? And I'm still very interested in that, But until more recently, I wasn't asking the question what does it mean to be here? What is here? I had this very mainstream model stuck in my mind, really branded in there, of a big Bang thirteen point eight billion years ago leading to a heliocentric solar system where Earth revolves around the Sun. Earth is a spitting globe and we are a pale

blue dot in a massive universe. We are just one of many other places out there, and we live in this unimaginably large place. And the Big Bang, the start of the universe happened at really an unthinkably long time ago. In my book, and then too, the Upside Down Cosmos looks at those assumptions and shows hopefully shows the flaws.

world's upside down. It's not quite but similar to you know, getting out of college in nineteen twenty nine, did seeing I guess did being attached to money twenty four to seven? At some point do you start to see the esthetics of money and the false kind of world that it creates? Was Did that have some impact on your journey and your changing of the way you used to think?

New York, it's almost like there's never enough. And I was at the bottom of the totem pole, so I didn't really see that the larger politics, but I was in the jungle. I was in that environment, and definitely that shaped me. I think my work, especially in Silicon Valley, dealing with patented technologies and the ways in which companies will sometimes steal from each other and then litigate each other. I saw that angle, and I saw a corruption in

the court systems, corruption in the media. So I was exposed to a lot that probably primed me, in hindsight, to question paradigms, especially working with patents, because when you get a patent, by definition, it's granted if it's novel and non obvious relative to other inventions that have been put out. So I was always working with people who had questioned paradigms, and often they were demeaned for doing so. So I probably had a good base for doing what I do now. But as you say, George, I was

around thirty when this paradigm shift happened. I was on my way to being partner at my firm, which I eventually became a partner at the firm. So I was squarely on a mainstream path. But even at that time in twenty sixteen, around when I was thirty, I was feeling like I was on a treadmill. But I was not looking for something new. I thought science had taught us everything we needed to know and we were just

working out the details. There was no meaning to life, and when we die, that is the end of our consciousness. It's all random and meaningless. That's what I believed. It just happened to be that I stumbled across podcasts initially that led me to books and scientific papers, which kind of forced me to look at consciousness. It was not something I was interested in at all, but I realized

the implications of what I was learning. Whether it was declassified documents from the US government validating psychic spying and the implications that our consciousness could transcend space and time, that was something I couldn't deny when I was looking at these documents and reading the books about it. That's just one example. And then peer reviewed paper after peer review paper on these sorts of phenomenon, near death experiences

and others. I just realized I had to reconsider life completely, and I didn't know I would go into these other areas. So initially it was just about the nature of consciousness. My first book An End to upside Down Thinking, and then the follow on podcast series. It's an eight episode series called Where Is My Mind? And then I was led to look into politics when twenty twenty happened. I wasn't really interested in politics then, and I saw deception in the media and other places, and I said, wow,

I've seen this in the world of business too. What's going on here? Is there is there something that I didn't quite look into when I was just looking into consciousness, the dark versus light. So I wrote an end to upside Down Liberty, and then I wrote an end to upside Down Contact, which talks about the forces and interdimensional intelligences, which I know might sound crazy, but I couldn't believe. The more I dug into this stuff there was evidence

that I had not previously encountered. And that's been the patterns even as I've gone on to an end to upside Down Medicine and now an End to the upside Down cosmos. There's this abundance of information that seems to have been supper and I thought I was pretty well educated, but now I don't feel that way.

further your education, you went to Princeton. If you're lucky, you get a scholarship, whether it be educational or athletic. But for the most part, people, and I say this all the time, they make it so difficult starting out in your life. If you go to college, there's a very good chance that you're in debt one hundred k before you even you know, walk through the office doors

for the first day. I think they've carefully created the matrix, you know, for lack of better words, so that you are working sixty seventy hours a week trying to pay the bills. So you know, in many cases, both mom and dad have to work, so you send the child off to the school because they can create. They can create and mold the minds of your children while you're working and scrambling to pay your bills. I think all of this is intentional.

I call it unlearning. It's like I'm unlearning the things I was taught. And in many ways I feel like I learned things that were incorrect in my education. But I also did learn how to learn, which has been very valuable in this journey and especially in my business career.

A lot of what I had to do in Silicon Valley was translate complex technological and legal concepts to business leaders and to be able to provide a board of directors with the five minute snapshot and have all the resources and references available, but to be able to summarize and synthesize. So what I've done is taken that skill set and apply it to areas that I'm finding to be much more meaningful because they get to the big questions of who are we, why are we here, what

is this place? And therefore, what should we be doing, and how should we prioritize our lives?

you can imagine what a landscape that creates. And so I saw it from the inside because I worked with so many different companies, sometimes large companies and sometimes small companies. I saw from both sides of the angle of the spectrum. And when twenty twenty happened, especially with the medical issues, we were told a narrative that this was something very severe,

we should all be very afraid. And I remember there were some doctors that came out who worked in the er and said, look, this is not as severe as what the media is telling us, and then immediately suppressed and taken off YouTube. And that was the pattern we've all seen now for a long time. That was my first exposure to this sort of corruption that I had

seen in the business world. I actually did see it a bit in my research on consciousness, because many of those scientists are challenging the mainstream paradigm of not only science and philosophy, but also neuroscience, and they're often called pseudoscientists. I think very much inappropriately and their Wikipedia pages get taken over. But what happened in twenty twenty was a bigger society wide scale of corruption that I said, okay,

I've actually seen this before. And then George, what really surprised me was that many of the people who supported my earlier work were going with the name's mainstream narratives, and I became very confused. I said, wait a second. I thought these people were so enlightened in many ways, and I still have a lot of respect for them, But how are they not seeing the manipulation and they're

actually supporting the mainstream narrative. So I started to realize what Ken Wilber, a spiritual philosopher, he calls it lines of development, meaning that we can be evolved in different basically pillars, but they're somewhat independent of each other. So you could have someone who's really good at one thing but then misses it on another thing. And I said, okay, there's a lot more than because initially, when I wrote my first book, I thought, Okay, here's my first book.

I'm done. I'll just continue in my career, And when twenty twenty hit, I realized there was way more for me.

Democrats and the Republicans felt back in twenty twenty. If you can believe that, I was very naive in that area because I just didn't care. Twenty twenty hit and all of a sudden it mattered because some people were saying, you need to put a man ask over your face, and other people were saying, no, you should be free. I was very quickly resonating with the people talking about freedom and talking about freedom of speech and being able

to question medical paradigms and political paradigms. So I would say at first I was very much drawn toward the conservatives because I felt like they were hitting on the truth better than the left was in twenty twenty with

regard to the medical stuff happening. But then I realized that basically anywhere on the political spectrum is one group of people imposing their will on others, and I felt that had a moral problem as it pertained to what I learned in consciousness, and that led me down the road of what's known as voluntarism, which is basically allowing people to be fully free a society without rulers, but

a society that would have rules within private property. So that led me to look at the Austrian school of economics Ledig von Misis, Murray Rothbard and very libertarian ideals, and to me, that was the only philosophy I could find that aligned with the research I had done on

consciousness and natural law. And that's what this book and End to Upside Down Liberty talks about is combining what I call it metaphysical political philosophy, not just a political philosophy, So it's one in which people are inherently free and acting that way outside of the state, but also have a mindset that is in alignment with the nature of reality and the nature of consciousness, So because I think

both are important. If you have people that are not of that more spiritual mindset living in a free society, you can have lots of problems. You'd also have those problems within the state, which is what we have now. So I'm pointing toward this north star of the future because, as you say, George, I think the system we have

now is a system of enslavement. That might sound harsh, but it really is when you get down to natural law and the Golden rule, which I view as something that's built into the fabric of reality based on a lot of research like near death experiences. So if we view the Golden rule to be built into the fabric of reality that we should not initiate aggression against another person or their property, then the way we run society right now, with government as a political monopoly, is inherently

violating natural law and spiritual principles. So there are varying degrees of oppression within governments, of course, and I think in America we have done much better than other countries and governments throughout history. However, it is still a form of enslavement in that the government can impose things that we didn't agree to. That's right, and we only have

implied consent. We only have a quote unquote social contract, which I'd love to see what that says, because I don't remember sitting down with the government and agreeing to all these things. So that's what I get into in this book and end to upside down liberty.

a citizen of the United States, you can carry a gun. Well, according to the government, will that just their crime rates must be through the roof if everybody's walking around carrying a gun. But the truth is their crime rate is forty percent less than the median in the United States of America. So the whole concept of this government and not just here in the United States. But you know,

we're already very much a global government. But you're going to give up a little bit of your security, or I'm sorry, you're going to give up your freedom for security. And again, it's this contract that they have, right because if our freedom is threatened, and listen, the threat may be in Vietnam, it may be in Iraq, but you know, we have to protect that and you have to be

willing to be drafted. And we're going to take twenty percent of your income for this, and on and on and on, and that is the social contract that that is really our enslavement. And I've been working very hard over the last several years to try to break people of the left right narrative.

not really a difference between professional wrestling and politics. It's all scripted. And if you think that the President and Congress and Scotis are the most powerful people on earth, they work for the military industrial complex, they work for Silicon Valley, they work for other government entities. They answer to people. If you think that the president doesn't answer to other people at Bankers just another example, you're missing the boat.

The problem is that this undermines the entire belief in government, because if the belief is the assumption is we do not trust people, therefore we're going to take a subset of people that we already said we didn't trust and put them in power in a political monopoly with unilateral decision making authority. Then you've basically said we shouldn't trust government, and we shouldn't trust the people who we said we

couldn't trust. To elect the right people into power, and we shouldn't trust the people who you said you didn't trust to run fair elections.

throat actually makes it worse. So what I prefer to do now, and this is why I like writing books and doing podcasts and giving talks, is that the information is now out there for people to absorb it if they want, so it's not being forced, and it's a way of being both proactive but also passive in that it's not forcing people because the cognitive dissonance is so strong sometimes where a person actually feels threatened by their worldview being challenged and can get angry. Some people might

never break out of this lumber. That's what I've realized, and some other people might do it on their own time. What I wrote about in my second book and then to Upside Down Living, it's more about theosophy of having this more spiritual worldview, and I studied many spiritual awakening journeys. Often what happens to people is that they're given nudges by life to make changes, and often they will ignore those nudges, and then the nudges become stronger and stronger

and more painful until there's a complete life crisis. It could be some kind of illness, it could be death tragedy, and it's through that tragedy that they're forced to wake up to something and their whole life changes. Sometimes they don't wake up, and maybe they live a miserable life, but sometimes they do through these tragedies. And that's really beyond our individual control, where everyone's on their own path.

But I do think there is a responsibility for those of us who can see through the deceptions to try to do our best to share it in some way, and it might not have to be in a public manner like this. It could be in small ways within our communities. I think waking up to the truth and transcending the veil that's been imposed on us is really critical in life.

So please take a few moments stop by his website, say hello to them on social media, and please do support all of the great people in the alternative alternate media who rely on our support, So please do support Mark and his work. The other book I want to talk about before we get to your latest is The End to the Upside Down Reset, and you talk about the leftist, progressive Marxist I'm using my words here, not your title, but the vision for society under the Great Reset.

And again, the bigger part how it can fool people into carrying into supporting these harmful cause is and I try to tell people, and we talked about this on the radio show yesterday. I don't think people understand when you hear build back better and a reset, that that means to completely destroy the current ways of living. Right,

They're not going to just change things. They're going to completely when they say reset, when you completely reboot your computer back to you know, the original factory settings, everything is gone. And for all the people who champion a lot of the things that are going on. And that's how evil exists. It doesn't come out and say I'm Satan and I'm going to cause you all pain and misery. No, these things come under the guise of goodness and they get you to believe in it. And that's why you

know it's certainly post twenty twenty. You have to question everything and you break down in your book, you deconstruct the Great Reset stated vision. What were your thoughts on that?

Anyone can read the book COVID nineteen, The Great Reset. It's on Amazon, and it explains this new vision for society. It views COVID as an opportunity to reshape society and make a better world. And the language used in that book is very It sounds compassionate. It's not saying we're trying to centralize power in order to control people and take away freedoms. It's we are here to try to make this a better world and to keep you safe,

and we know what's best for you. It's very much an elitist mentality, and it's an anti human mentality as I see it, in that it views human beings almost like parasites who need to be controlled otherwise we'll destroy the plant it, rather than inherently free beings. So when I talk about, and you mentioned this in the subtitle, the way in which carrying people can be fooled into supporting harmful causes, I think that's really critical because these

agendas are not positioned as being nefarious. They're positioned as we care so much about you, we want to keep you safe, and it's really a wolf in sheep's clothing. And in the title of I talk about this leftist vision for society because as I looked at the Great Reset, it had many parallels to a philosophy that I refer to as leftism in the book. But I see leftism as something beyond just a political philosophy. I see it

as a socio political slash metaphysical philosophy. It's sort of this nihilistic worldview that life is inherently random and meaningless, which I totally subscribe to. Before there's no spirit or soul, as you've all know, Harari says, and he's an advisor to the World Economic Forum, it's much more of a

it's an anti free market mentality. It's in the worst case, as you say, George Marxist, but it's not about allowing people to freely engage in a marketplace, and it's about having big government rather than allowing people to be free and not having rulers. So I view that as inherently problematic, and one of the reasons I'm so sensitive to it is probably because of my background. So many people in my network are in that camp, and I don't think

all of them are nefarious. They just believe they're being caring and compassionate and have not looked at another way of life. So the first part of this book, and Enter the Upside Down Reset, is devoted to analyzing the psychology underlying this leftist ideology and showing the way in which compassion is weaponized, looking at political psychology and hope, hopefully helping people break through and say, oh, I never actually thought about it this way. I think I'm being caring,

but I'm actually not. And that's one of the main intentions of this book.

talking about. How do we get people to think that way, how to continue to ask questions and vaccines were that way. When I was in the military, I got the anthrac shots. We got a shot ninety one that made me sick for a couple of years. But we continue to get them. Right, Well, it's October, we got to get the flu vacs and we just roll up our sleeve. And how many times in your life did you ask your doctor what's in

that shot you're about to give me? And he pulls out you know, well, it's got this that just never happens. You're just trained like everything else in our society, it's the fall. So you get the flu shot. But again, COVID twenty twenty a double edged sword. I do believe that event wo a lot of people up. Maybe it wasn't their intention, maybe it was, I don't know, but

that was a significant event. While as horrible as it was, it did it was kind of a great awakening, and it caused a lot of people to actually do research into vaccines and you start to see, well, why does that thing you're about to put in my body have formaldehyde or mercury or cells from a dog's kidney, all of these things, and you know, it really has you know, caused people to consider everything that's going into their body and obviously can lead to other things, like you know,

geoengineering and bioengineered food products. But go ahead and give us a hypnopsis on your book and what really inspired you to write that one.

the Science of an afterlife. I mean, it took a lot of internal work to say, Okay, I'm going to do this, and I'm going to try to do it in the most responsible way twenty twenty hits to write on politics at that time, that was a new thing for me, and I knew how many people I would upset, and so each time I've had to do the internal work.

The Medicine book was a great example of that, and end to upside down medicine, because not only was I talking about vaccines, and there's a whole chapter on that. And my hope is that especially for parents, that would be a very good synthesis for them to read that one chapter and to say, Okay, I need to at

least ask questions about what's in these injections. But I talk a lot about germ theory in that book, the germ theory of disease, which is the belief which I never even thought to question, that there are microbes that make you sick. Yep. And that makes sense because if you have an infection, we can see a lot of bacteria and we say, okay, the bacteria cause disease. The problem there is there's another potential perspective, which is that yeah,

bacteria exists and they are associated with disease. But the bacteria are there because there's an underlying toxicity, and the bacteria are there to clean up dead and dying tissue. So they are like firefighters putting out the fire and they get falsely accused of being the one that started the fire. That's a whole paradigm shift in of itself. And we could look at parasites and fungi it the same way that maybe they are uniquely qualified to help

us clean something up. Virus is our whole, separate issue, which I had heard about in twenty twenty. If you remember, early in the pandemic, there were some people who were questioning the vaccine narrative, which I listened to, and I said, this is really interesting because I was new to that topic. And there were a small number of doctors like doctor Andrew Kaufman, doctor Tom Cowen, doctors Mark and Sam Bailey, New Zealand, classically trained doctors who were saying, yeah, that's

all good and well with the vaccines. The vaccine stuff is really dangerous, but actually there's no SARS cove to virus and actually we've never found any viruses ever. So I heard that and was like, I don't really know what to make of that claim. These people sound like they're serious and they're speaking very technically about the methodologies used in virology labs, and I didn't really know much about that, so I put it off to the side.

And then twenty twenty three hit and people were still talking about it, and I met alex Zek of the Way Forward podcast and he was saying, Mark you've got to look into this. He did a series that I highly recommend to your audience. It's called The End of Covid, available at the end of covid dot com. It's like one hundred plus hours of content on these sorts of topics.

And Alec invited me to be a guest on that and I participated in three of the panels, talking more about my books on politics and ND to Upside Down Liberty and the Great Reset, and then to the Upside Down Reset. But because I was a participant, I listened to some of the other interviews with the doctors and they were talking about the methods used in virology and how virology labs actually lack an independent variable and proper controls.

These are basic things that you would need to have in a scientific study, and this goes back to the history of virology. The initial study in nineteen fifty four by Enders and Peoples, which alleged to have come up with an isolation method for viruses. The problem is they actually didn't create a sample of a virus by itself. And that might sound simple, but it's really pivotal because in order to run any studies on viruses or to

know that a virus actually exists. You need to have a sample of just the virus and then introduce it into a system to show that it causes disease. Very simple, need an independent variable. The problem is the way these studies are conducted is they don't have a sample of just a virus. They assume a virus is in there, but it's really unpurified. That on its own really messes everything up because yes, people get sick, and yes we can show effects in laboratories, but we can never tie

it back to an alleged virus. There could be many other causes that make people sick. And that's really the crux of this argument. I go through all that history and the science and it's pretty mind blowing, especially when we consider the work that Christine Massey and her colleagues have been doing. She and her colleagues have been sending freedom of information requests to health organizations around the world, including the CDC, saying, Hi, can you please send me

a purified sample of SARS, cove two or HIV. You name the virus where it's just the virus by itself, not mixed with other stuff, just the virus. Please send us examples and they say, we have no records, and in fact, what you're asking for violates the gold standard because the gold standard mixes things together and we never

have an unpurified sample. I'm paraphrasing. So I was just mind blown when I came across this and realized there are many reasons people get sick that have nothing to do with an alleged virus, such as toxicity in the environment EMFs, so many other things, or even metaphysical concepts like energies that science doesn't understand, and I go into

all that. So that's a very quick synopsis of something that when I first wrote the book, George, I actually wasn't sure it was going to be a book that I would ever send to someone or send to my publisher. I wanted to write it to see can I make this argument well enough. And the reason I'm giving a large preface here that leads into the book on cosmology

that practice of there's something here. It seems too hard to believe, but I'm going to try to put it all together and let me see if I can make an argument that I actually can't robot myself or something that's worth sharing. And that's what this book is an end to upside down medicine.

familiar with it. It looks like it's a plethora of information and I'll be spending some time there this weekend. Another thing is mark. A lot of people claim that this whole alternative medicine thing is just within the last ten years. It's a YouTube phenomenon. But when you look back at the original vaccines of the eighteen hundreds, there were like the entire city of Montreal rose up against the vaccines. Many towns in our country said, nope, this

is nothing new. It was the same in nineteen eighteen, and it was the same in twenty twenty. You can use Google, you can use yandex. You can do research and find all of the old pictures of people protesting against vaccine.

a lost chapter in the history of biology. And then you start coming across books like you said, Smulllins, murder by injection and all these other things, and you've realized.

is that it's not new. It didn't just pop up ten years ago. Even this question about viruses and germ theory. If we look back at the HIIV era, there was an organization called the Perth Group perth available at the perthgroup dot com that was writing technical papers on whether this virus alleged virus HIV has been established using the scientific method, or whether there are other reasons people are getting sick that are not being explored. So it didn't

just pop up in twenty twenty with COVID. And when we look back with Louis Pastor, for example, he was looking at Rabi's and he said, well, there must be something that's transmitted, but I can't see it, so it's probably there, but I just haven't found it. So we often see this. We see this in cosmology too, which

we'll talk about inferences and logical fallacies. So that's what I This exploration into medicine was really critical for me because it exposed the need for clean logic and following the scientific method before we come to conclusions, whereas I'm seeing this throughout science and even in politics and economics, people are jumping to conclusions based on a bunch of observations and then making inferences but not telling you their inferences. They're calling it fact or close to fact.

to Google and they put in Perth Group. Well, the very first result is the Perth Group is a group of HIV AIDS denialists based in Perth, Western Australia who claim in opposition to the scientific concess.

them up. Why can't I talk setting them up for failure to a certain degree, because if they just go to Google and plug it in, they're going to get led down the same path they've always been led down.

about these topics. It's not just someone saying I don't believe anything the mainstream says, I'm just denying it to be contrarian. These are real scientific arguments.

flat and now we know it's a spinning globe. And the Copernican Revolution taught us otherwise, or the revolution that we didn't understand that germs caused disease until we got a microscope and then we could see these little germs. I made those comparisons a long time ago, not trying to make a point, but just because I assumed those

were foregone conclusions. And my second book, An End to Upside Down Living, has a globe on the cover, not because I'm talking about cosmology, but it just happened to be the logo that we used on the cover of An End to Upside Down Living. It Probably it was twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two. I was listening to a podcast with Dave Weiss flat Earth Dave. It might have been on Expanding Reality hosted by Brandon Thomas,

and he's done a great job. I've been on his podcast multiple times exploring many topics, and I remember just listening to what he said and thinking this is interesting. Like I didn't. I was resistant to it because so many of the people that I know talked about flat earth as a syop meaning an intentional deception geared toward misdirecting genuinely curious people, and by the way, the germ

theory virus thing I heard the same argument. So before I wrote the Medicine Book, I really had to overcome this and think, I don't want to be succumbing to a stye op, so I'm going to make this as scientific as possible and let people make their own decisions. So I was a little bit concerned with this flat earth stuff when I first came across it, But then again, I also didn't feel like I could overcome the arguments because I didn't know enough about it, just like with viruses.

And then I remember getting on an airplane that year and looking out the window and saying, hmm, do I see the down and away curvature? I actually don't see it moving down and away from here. I see circularity. But that's not the same as spherical curvature. Circularity could be on a flat plane. So anyway, I was looking at all that pretty naively and was not thinking about

writing a book on this topic. But after I wrote the Medicine Book, I noticed that many of the people I respected who were questioning germ theory and virology were saying and even telling me personally. Mark the same logical fallacies that you've identified in medicine, they exist in cosmology.

You have to look into this. And I went to a conference in Texas called Confluence, hosted by Alex Zech and many of his colleagues, and people were talking about not just viruses, but some of them saying like, have you looked into this flatter thing? And some people I was talking to Eurasimos of Here for the Truth podcast and Melly Nubeck. They in some ways inspired this book because they were saying, look, everyone here's talking about flat Earth.

I don't really think it matters. What do you think? Mark? And I would say I don't have much of an opinion on this. But also around that time, April twenty twenty four, doctor Stephen A. Young, a theoretical physics PhD, came out with a book called A Fool's Wisdom, which I recommend to your audience if you haven't heard of it. A Fool's Wisdom by Stephen A. Young, Theoretical Physics, PhD. And in this book he says something this is almost

a direct quote. I can't say with one hundred percent Excuse me, I can't say with one hundred percent certainty what this place is. But I can tell you with one hundred percent certainty what this place is not, and it's not a spinning globe. And he went through some of the arguments and I said, okay, what's going on here.

This is a highly credentialed physicist who has worked with the most mainstream physicists you can imagine, and tried to debunk flat earth himself and basically was unable to do so, or more precisely, he was trying to prove the spinning globe and was not able to do so. So he summarized some of the arguments and I said, this is interesting. So I had this kind of convergence of things happening where people were telling me, you've got to look into this.

I said to myself, if this is real, I need to look into it because I need to basically correct some of my old statements and expose what might be the truth, or more precisely, expose the falsehoods. So that led me to look into more research. And Kelly Brogan, a medical doctor who's been very brave to challenge many paradigms, and I was on her podcast talking about this reclamation radio.

She had some resources that She sent me just to look into things, not to try to prove anything, but to just summarize the landscape of what's out there, what people were arguing. So I looked into that, and then I went down the rabbit hole, which you and your audience are very familiar with, where basically I was unable to verify the claims that have been put forth. And I know the term flat Earth comes up a lot. I use this term cosmology more often because I think

it's more than just the shape of Earth. It's what is the cosmos. Was there a big bang thirteen point eight billion years ago that led us into a heally eocentric universe where Earth is a spinning globe with a radius value of roughly four thousand miles at the equator and so forth. All of those are very specific claims that have been put forth, and my book explores all of those. And what I realized is that I couldn't

prove the spinning globe. We certainly can't prove the Big Bang, which happened in some very far away place a long time ago. We have a few observations which scientists have just superimposed over a Big Bang model, but the spinning globe.

It really blows my mind. We should have if there is a spinning globe, video footage of Earth as a spinning globe globe meaning sphere doing a full rotation where you can zoom in and see buildings standing upright on the top and upside down on the bottom, and sideways on the side and so forth. But what do we get every time I look for it, to just say, mark, you miss something. We get partial pictures from just a high altitude of ambiguous curvature, which doesn't show us a

full globe. And often there's a fish eye lens used, or CGI or composite or who knows what else. But we don't get a full sphere. And we don't have anything actually showing of Earth, or showing Earth revolving around the Sun, or dare I say, showing Earth's position in the alleged Solar system with all the other planets there and the Sun at the center. We don't have direct

evidence of any of the stuff. It's always indirect. And that's been something when I speak to people about this who are very skeptical of the cosmology questioners, they always do pause at that and they say hmm, And then I point out. You know, NASA's budget is around twenty five billion dollars a year. Think about how much money that is over many decades. And they've allegedly sent people to the Moon, they say, and they've sent probes out into deep space, and yet they can't give us video

footage of a sphere. They just have some pictures that look like a disc, not a full sphere that we don't know if they're CGI or not. And so and then they they do question that because it is curious.

their head above water. And I think that's why the Apollo thirteen mission happened the way it did, because after the first time, like I saw the numbers between Apollo eleven and Apollo twelve, once you do something for the first time, people just don't really care as much. And they were shocked, and so they're like, well, we have to career. We ate this drama with Apollo thirteen, and they're going to slingshot with the Moon's gravity and create

this great story and heroes. And every now and then NASA will do things to get your attention, whether it's the challenger and not sure if you went down that rabbit hole yet, And just as recently within the last week, you know, oh those two people were stranded.

end up sick. And while many people perceive that as Hollywood entertainment, I fully believe whether it's Outbreak or Contagion, whether it's Star Wars or Battle Star Galactica, these things are used as psychological warfare to get your mind to accept these things when they are played out on the world stage.

possible because their whole narrative is based on a set of cosmological and assumptions in physics that we can show not to be true. So the way I start my book, and I hope more and more people talk about this is with dark matter and dark energy. So dark matter and dark energy, according to mainstream scientists, they comprise ninety six percent of the whole universe, so only four percent of stuff that we know. Ninety six percent isn't something

we even understand. So on its face, physics has some problems. But more recently, dark matter has been falsified by an astrophysicist named Pavel Krupa and his colleagues in Germany. For over twenty years, they've been looking at dark matter, and they're saying the predictions that you would expect to see with dark matter have been falsified with more than five sigma confidence, meaning more than ninety nine point nine to

nine percent confidence. This is significant because dark matter was allegedly discovered in nineteen thirty three by an astronomer named Fritz Swickey. He was looking at the Coma cluster of galaxies and found that things were moving around in ways that would not have been predicted by Einstein's gravity his general relativity theory. In other words, there was missing mass there needed to be much more mass than there was

there in order to observe the things he observed. It was off by something like ninety nine percent, so big mismatch. And there were two options, as I see it. He could have said, well, we need to reconsider the foundations of physics because maybe Einstein's relativity and Newton's gravity are wrong and things move for other reasons. Or we discover dark matter and there must be matter there to preserve Einstein's relativity and gravity, and we can just plug in

that dark matter. It must be there because we couldn't be wrong about the other things, and then we'll call it a discovery. We discovered dark matter. What do we think happened? Well, I would think now that maybe dark matter was just a plug in a post hoc rationalization which has now been falsified. And what Pablo Krupa says, this astrophysicist in Germany, because he was asked in an interview, well, if dark matter has been falsified, why are so many

people trying to study it? Why hasn't this been talked about more? And what he says is it's due to sociological pressures. If you study dark matter, that's where the prizes are awarded, that's where the funding is. So basically, our collective consciousness is being steered toward this dark matter idea, and it's a house of cards, and dark energy is its own problem too, So on its face, we don't

need to talk about anything else. We don't even need to talk about a conspiracy, because if dark matter has been falsified, it is a problem for gravity, and gravity is foundational to modern physics and modern cosmology, and it might help us understand why there is no unified theory in physics. This is one of the main problems that physicists talk about. We cannot reconcile the two leading theories,

which is Einstein's relativity and quantum mechanics. Metaphorically speaking, the equations blow up when you combine them, so on its face, modern cosmology modern physics is completely broken, and therefore we're in a good position to ask questions about everything. You know.

the agenda get discredited. People like Stanley Meyer, who invented the hydro engine back in the seventies. He was killed by big oil, you know, by two Belgian businessman after he sipped to some cranberry juice, and all these people that there are people who have stood up against big pharmaceuticals who have had you know, unfortunately just untinly demises,

and that's really what we are up against. And whether it's and I guess that's my next question to you that when you finally did understand you know, I call it biblical cosmology. Some people call it geocentrism flat earth, compared to when you found the truth about whether it's politics or medicine. Because for me it was a big deal because I understood if they could lie about this, then everything is a lie. And it took me two weeks of just pacing around and rethinking and understanding how

big the lie was. Obviously it was a big enough deal for you to write a book, but it is very life changingoute life changing.

at NASA, where every scientist is in on it. I think most people are innocently propagating a narrative because they haven't explored assumptions and it's just too big a deal to question. So I think there's probably a small group. I don't know who or how it works. I view this as part of a spiritual war, which I've talked about in my books. I think there are dark forces that are not necessarily physical, feeding into these deceptions. So it has been a challenge, and then it's another challenge

to then speak about it publicly. But the way I describe it in my book, I call it globe skepticism, meaning finding the holes in the mainstream narrative without saying I know exactly what is true, because for various reasons, there are certain observations we don't have in order to directly show this. Ideally we'd have video footage of super high altitudes that we can independently verify without a space agency. We don't have that. For example, we haven't been able

to dig down very far. I mean, if first radius is roughly four thousand miles, we would love to be able to see what this molten core is like, and what's the farthest digging expedition ever under eight miles? So all the stuff with the core is a guess. But if we wanted to have a full model of what Earth is, we'd want to have a better picture of what's beneath us. And we want to be able to

explore Earth more fully, including Antarctica. And I know people do go there, and there are certain bases people have gone. There was the quote unquote Final Experiment, which was just a single observation at one base, But we would want to have lots of observations at all over Antarctica, not just one location. So there are restrictions in terms of what we can actually observe, which prevent a comprehensive model

with direct observation. And that's why I like the term globe skepticism, and I do think it does disarm people, and that's what I like to do with this stuff. Same thing with germ theory. I'm not going to tell you with certainty what is true, but I can show you the model we've been told to believe it is false for these reasons. And then they say hmm. But then they want to say, well, but Mark, you can't tell me with direct evidence what is true. That's okay.

Then we're left in a position of saying I don't know with certainty, and that could be uncomfortable for people, but it is an appropriate answer to say, I know this is not true, but i'm not quite sure what is true. I think I'm leaning in this direction for these reasons, but I'm not sure with certainty. And I do notice people do exhale a bit when they're put there, rather than this is what's true, this is what I know for sure. And here's why. That's a good point.

anything about it, but they will blindly defend it. That is the problem. And it goes back to the Flexner Report, the Rockefeller's hijacking of both medicine and the education system and the way that we are taught, and that all changed very early twentieth century.

been asking that question for a while. I don't know for sure, but having the cosmological framework is critical because if we believe in a spinning globe with this unimaginably long evolutionary timeframe, that leads way to things like Darwinism and Stephen A. Young talks about this in his book A Fool's Wisdom. I call it Young's framework of social engineering, but he calls it basically looking at Elements of scientism. I think he's brilliant in the way he just talks

about this. He questions, first, atomism, the way that we believe there are physical things at the core of reality. But if you look at an atom it's ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine percent empty space. And the stuff that's believed to be physical, we've just assumed that it's physical, like these electron clouds or quarks and subquarks. What he argues is that a lot of this stuff could be just explained more energetically or through the elements.

We don't need to impose a physical framework on this stuff. But the belief that it is physical leads us to things like gravity, because gravity is all about mass, which leads us to heliocentrism. And when you have heliocentrism, you have a thirteen point eight billion year universe, which leads us to Darwinism. And because if Darwinism, we're led to believe in the germ theory of disease, where these microbes are all competing against each other, which leads us to

then want to have vaccines. So you can see how the deception really builds on itself, and it almost feels endless. Like every paradigm we've been taught, there's some fundamental flaw in it. Absolutely.

been falsified. You probably haven't heard about that. Then I would move a little further and say, did you know that Einstein and Stephen Hawking admitted that when you look at the lights in the sky, you cannot tell whether we Earth revolves around the Sun or the Sun revolves around Earth. That geocentrism Earth at the center versus heliocentrism

are what's known as kinematically equivalent. And there's something known as the Copernican principle which has led scientists to prefer the idea that Earth revolves around the Sun because they don't want to believe we're special. Roberts and Genis is a great documentary called The Principle on this. So did you know that's true that there's been a philosophical preference

to put Earth not at the center. Most people don't know about that, And then I would say, do you know one of the reasons there are so many people who believe Earth is flat is because they've gone out and done measurements and they can see things that should be blocked by the physical curvature of Earth. Because if you assume a radius value of four thousand miles at the equator of Earth, there are certain things that you

should not be able to see. It would be like trying to see around a bend, and people are consistently able to see things, and the only way to try to explain that is to say that life light bends and it's all refraction and you're seeing a mirage. And then I'd move on to talk about the Selenelian lunar eclipse, which many people have not heard about, but then they google it and say, oh, actually that's a real thing.

That is where you can during a lunar eclipse, you can see the eclipsed Moon and the Sun above the horizon at the same time, which should not be possible on the low model, because the Earth is supposed to be in between the Sun and Moon causing the eclipse, and yet you can see them both. What does science say? They say, well, that is just a mirage you're looking at in the sky. That's a pretty tough one. Then

I would reference magnetic declination Earth's magnetic field. No one's ever been to the core of Earth, and the only reason we believe Earth has a magnetic field is because of the geodynamo effect in the outer core, which no one ever has found. And the geodynamo effect has never been replicated anywhere, and because of that, people who navigate have to manually adjust their compasses called magnetic declination. That's

pretty wild. Go to magneticdash declination dot com and you can see the amount of adjustment you need to make on your compass, especially when you go to Antarctica. It's pretty crazy. Sometimes the compass reading is it's like off by negative one hundred and seventy degrees, which means whatever your compass says, just turn around. That's pretty strange. And then I would also lastly, I talk about horizontal wave propagation, which is trying to send let's just say whales. Whales

use z are to communicate. These are just waves being propagated horizontally, and yet they're supposed to bend around a curve over long distances if you want to reach someone, and so whales communicating over thousands of thousands of miles using sonar. If we lived on a globe, those waves should just fly out into space through the water because they're going straight and the globe curves down and somehow the waves community are able to reach from one whale

to the other. It's much more difficult to invoke infraction in the water. So what scientists say, is that there is some basically banned through which the waves travel, so that the waves travel along the curve. Is that believable or are the whales just communicating on a flat stationary topographical plane. All great points.

opening up. And I'm also finding on the side of spirituality and the science of consciousness and near death experiences, there is growing momentum to talk about that topic relative to when I first published the book, even among business communities. So I feel drawn to speak about the stuff that I just love sharing. But at the same time, I am curious about just all of it. What we talked about today is really opening up a can of worms to so many other things. Yeah that you know, who

really are we? Why are we here? What is this place? How was it generated and created? What is all the life that we see? What should we be doing? I still have those questions.

all these different subjects. But what has it been in your journey that has been the most successful way of getting people curious? Right, because we can't force feed him. That really doesn't work. But what has been your success way of success in getting people to research the truth?

We've got a big problem. Neilda grass Tyson says dark matter is one of the biggest mysteries we have in the universe. I quote him. I'm paraphrasing there in my book. I quote him. So I try to find the sources that can get us to that place of agreement. I think Austin witz It does a great job with this. He has a YouTube channel, wits It gets It. I learned a ton from him. I recommend him to your audience if you're not familiar, because he gets really technical

with the stuff. And I like that because then I can talk to people and say, look, do you know Einstein said this? And Stephen Hawking talked about basically the interchangeability of geocentrism and heliocentrism. So that's disarming. And then to say, this conversation is not about proving the truth. Let's just poke holes in what we've been told. Let's just do that. We don't have to go to what

the truth is. And you kind of work them step by step, example after example, and then it becomes like a bundle of twigs where you can't maybe you can break an individual twig, but the bundle on its own is strong. That's an analogy I've really resonated with. So when you have a conversions of evidence in multiple areas, that's ultimately powerful, but that usually comes after you've established the foundations absolutely all great points.

it rained. That leaves out many possibilities like sprinklers and do or many other We could come up with a million examples of why grass is wet. This happens all over science, cosmology, politics. Where we observe things, we correctly observe them when we jump to a causal explanation, So we need to be super careful with that. My website, as you said, is Mark Gober dot com m A r K g O b e er dot com. I have seven books currently. They're all available in hard copy,

kindle and audible formats. I narrate the audibles myself if you're interested in that. And my podcast series, which I mentioned, Where is My Mind. It's an eight episode bingeable series on near death experiences, telepathy, the scientific scientific evidence for that stuff. My apologies and on that one for talking about Galileo and I was in an old paradigm at the time, but I think the broader themes of consciousness

that you'll hear in that podcast still stand. So I've heard a lot of people who are still listening to it even though it came out in twenty nineteen. Where is My Mind on Apple Podcasts, Spotify all the major players.

a great point. If you can poke holes in people's beliefs in scientism, in germ theory, that is going to lead most people to well, if this is a lie, then what is true? And I think that's what gets the fire burning and people to researching. So Mark, thank you so much for your time. Have a great weekend, and again much success with all your books, and we'd love to have you again down the road if you write another book.