Episode 117: The Great Biblical Creation Debate

The following presentation is NOL Marvis Studio's production. You're listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network. Here is your host, George Hobbs. Welcome back truth seekers from around the world. It's time for a very special edition of the Flat Earth Files. The long awaited debate between Pastor Dean Odle and Pastor Greg Locke from Mount Juliet, Tennessee was one for the ages. You know, I really thought it was going to be controlled well, you know, lay down

the ground rules. One person speak for X amount of time, like an hour, and then the others speak for an hour, and then each get a chance to rebuttal shake hands, praise God, and move on, folks. It couldn't have been anything further from that. The first hour, Pastor Odele did ask on at least two, maybe three occasions if he could just get to his our point presentation and his thing. But Pastor Luck seemed to be instigating things very very interesting. It did kickoff right at seven pm.

They had about thirty minutes of musical worship prior to it, but the actual event did kickoff right on time seven pm Eastern six Pacific. The stream maxed out and just on the one stream between three thousand and thirty five hundred people. And while that may not seem like a lot for a live stream of this sort on a Saturday night, was pretty impressive. A lot of people were watching Flat Earth. Dave was in the chat, I was in the chat. Zulu one was in the chat. A lot of people were there,

and again for Saturday night, that's a very good number. So a recap hour one was a little disappointing. And I'm not blaming anyone really, it was just I think they read one Bible verse in the entire hour, and it was supposed to be entirely based pretty much on you know, biblical cosmology. Obviously, you're at a worship, a place of worship, so it should certainly be based on that. And again Pastor Odel, in all his defense, he was very composed and he was a guest of Pastor Locks.

I don't think Pastor Elect did a great job whatsoever of being a host. The crowd was very divisive, which was a little weird. Now, for some reason, there was a lot of security. Now maybe it's normal for this church, but they had a lot of security and tactical vests with

a lot of mags of ammunition. And at the end, when things got a little testy, and I will tell you not to spoil the ending, things got very, very divisive, and it ended very abruptly, very abruptly, and then these guys walked up on stage, just a really weird scene. But we're gonna let I did the entire four hours in like fifteen minutes, in its entirety, so I will let you listen to everything if you want to skip through. Hour one is a back and forth debate. From

hour number two. For about the next ninety minutes, it's pastor Pastor Dean Odle, and he did a great job of laying things out. And then about the next hour or so, it was Pastor Lock, and he was a bit rude. It seemed like a little bit of name calling, and he didn't really provide a whole lot of biblical, you know, terminology like he promised he would, a lot of rhetoric, and he was louder. And I pointed this out to one of my listeners, just because you're louder

doesn't mean you're you're right, You're just louder. And then again, right about the top of hour four, things got really testy and about ten minutes after that it was over, and it ended very very very abruptly. I did try to cite most of the verses, and I'll have episode ninety five in the show description where we interviewed Pastor Odle, and I'll have Pastor Danodle's information in the show description, and I will have all the Bible verses that

were quoted that I was able to get listen. It was four hours and fifteen minutes. I was in and out of here. You know, I couldn't sit in one place for four hours and fifteen minutes. But I think I got most of everything sited. So again, I would love to hear everybody's thoughts on this, whether you listen to it live, watched it on YouTube, or you listen to it here on the flat Earth Files. And again I'd love to hear your thoughts, and you can do so by sending

us an email to the flat Earthfiles at gmail dot com. And without any further ado, here is the Great flat Earth Debate with Pastor Danodle and Pastor Greg Lock, Great Creation Debate. Who are honored that you are here. Thank you so much for being in our house tonight, the House of the Lord. Here at Global Vision. We honor you for your presence. You can be seated all over the house. I'm going to give you just a couple of kind of some schematics and schedule and ground rules a little bit,

if you will, for tonight's discussion and lively debate. It's going to be super exciting. I know obviously that not just some of our church folk are here, but a lot of other churches and other church folk are here. And then some non church folk are here as well, And that's okay. I'm just glad that everybody is in the house tonight. Amen, I'm honored that you're here. We have people outside that aren't happy to be here.

I'm not sure why they showed up, but they're here nonetheless, and I promise everyone will be well protected and respected tonight in this discussion and in this debate. So I want to say just a word before I bring up my friend, and I do mean my friend. Many of you don't know anything about the context of our church. I know you're you're finding bathrooms and we're

pretty high tech, redneck around here. We've been in tent church for four years and so a lot of people aren't used to that as it gets a little cooler, we'll crank on the heaters and we'll get things to a comfortable level for you in the house. But let me just say this, not everybody's here for a flat spherical Earth debate, right, Some people are here. Maybe maybe you're searching, you know, maybe your mind's already made up, or for some of you, maybe you're here for the wrong reason.

Let me just say this, If you're here for the wrong reason, would you please let everyone else enjoy what's going to happen tonight in the house. We would appreciate that very very much as Christians, and I have to talk from a Christian perspective because I'm a Christian and I'm a pastor, and I know not everybody in the room is a Christian, nor am I forcing that upon you. We'll both preach the Gospel tonight. We're gospel preachers. We're

not heretics. We believe that Jesus is not a way, but the one and only way to the Kingdom of God. We believe that in this room. Okay, now, there are some things that we are world's apart. On world's apart. There are the things that we're a world's part there is no doubt, and we'll discuss those things. But listen to me very close. We have a lot of live stream cameras going, including all of our platforms, many other platforms, pastor Dean's platform, and so there's a lot

going on. There's a lot of working parts tonight. Right, We've got security, we got all of that. We don't want to have to quiet anybody down. Okay, we don't want to have to, you know, drag anybody out, and so let's just all be friends and family. Listen. The worst thing about this culture, one of really the top three worst things about this culture, is we think that disagreement is automatic discrimination. We can disagree and be okay about some things, right at the end of the

day, God's right right, God's right. I'm not right. He's not right, You're not right. They're not right. It's not us in them. And so listen very very closely. I'm gonna talk. And our people know I cry as much as I preach sometimes, so it's a weird context to cry in. But let me just share something with you from my heart that I think is important. And we're gonna get started and we're really gonna have a good time tonight, I get lively, might get a little dicey,

but it's gonna be fun, right, It's gonna be fun. We're gonna let the Word of God do its work. And we're coming tonight from a strictly Christian perspective. But listen to me. As much as in this room there are great levels of varying degrees of disagreement, understand that at the end of the day, we want to leave being friends, being Christians,

being somewhat unified as we can. We will, as believers attack perhaps ideas and ideologies, but we're not going to tolerate attacking people and attacking individuals. Okay, he's not here to attack me, and I'm not here to attack him. Now, both of us have very demonstrative personalities, and so both of us will have to harness ourselves a little bit. And that's okay,

and that's just part of who we are. That's why God made us, and perhaps that's the reason that God of the universe put us up here on this platform and maybe not some others. Because we know when we can really mash the gas, and as the young people say, go ham, and we know maybe when we need to dial things back a little bit. So the context for why we're here tonight is it's not that I didn't know what he believed about the Earth and he didn't know what I believed about the Earth.

We've been friends for a while, and I preached for him at the Skyfall conference and had a wonderful time. I was there to preach on deliverance. I wasn't there to preach on cosmology, nor did he ask me to write, and so we knew where each other was. But however long ago it's been now it seems like months, but I guess really only a little more than a month. I had my now famous rant in a Sunday morning

message for about twelve to fifteen minutes. Because you have to understand, as a local church pastor, there was just a lot of division that began to creep in in various ways and various people, and I thought, you know what, I'm just gonna kind of nip this. Now. I'm a guy that just kind of gets up and says what I feel pastorally needs to be said. But here's what I under and anticipate it, right, I under anticipate it on both sides, just how passionate people are in many ways about

this issue. And so I really picked a scab inadvertently and found out very quickly that there are people on both sides that don't just have a little bit of belief, but a lot of belief right, and a lot of passion behind those beliefs. And so all of that being said, all things being equal, tonight we are not going to, as the old timers say, fix room overnight. Okay, I'm not going to spend the entirety of my

time trying to convince you of my position nor he is. What we're trying to do tonight is draw some simple conclusions from the Word of God and say,

what is the Lord really saying? And for those of you who aren't Christians, I want you to understand that tonight you're going to find out both from this Man of God and from myself and from the Bible, regardless of where we are cosmologically, you're going to find out that they're there is a God in heaven that loves you deeply, and Jesus Christ died for you. He wants you to be saved. There is only one gospel, and it

is the Death, the Burial, and the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. And because we don't serve some dead Jew in a Palestinian tune, we serve a risen savior. You can have freedom and liberty and victory tonight we can at least agree on that would just shout Amen in the house. So as our folks are getting everything prepared, make sure we have Pastor Dean's mike and everything he's going to need. Here, here's how things are gonna flow tonight.

I told him, listen, we had a gifts debate a year or two ago, a couple of years ago, kind of a deliverance debate, and we had a guide. He was super stiff, you know, and he just managed the time. And I said, you know what, I don't want us to have that divisiveness and be like, oh my goodness, we only got one minute left. I said, I really want to make this a debate but also a discussion. And so here's what we're gonna do.

In a moment. When I bring Pastor Dan to the platform, we're gonna sit down and he's comfy chairs, and we're really just going to have a bit of a discussion. Right, We're gonna open ended, just bare bones. He'll be be honest, ask a few questions at each other. I want you to get to know his mindset and the inner workings of how he

was led into this theological position as well as myself. And then after just a little bit kind of get to know you, Tom, then we are going to allow him to go into his time, and he will take the time that he needs. I know he'll have some things hooked up through the you know, the screens and the HDMI cables and all of that, and so he'll have full control over all of that. Once he does that, then I will get up and it won't be rebuttal time. I'll then get

up and give my biblical arguments from my vantage point. And then while each of us are speaking, we'll be jotting some things down. You know, perhaps maybe here's a question, or maybe here's a contradiction or something that didn't quite sound right, and we can write that down. So then after I get through with my discussion, he can then get up and give a rebuttal to what I said. And then I'll get up after that and give a

rebuttal to some of the things that wrote down what he said. And the only way to keep us from going back to back over and over again and making things boring and mundane is to split it up that way, all right. So again we're not gonna answer everybody's questions. What I found in this debate is that hole Lee smokes. This debate could go for a week. There's a lot of YouTube videos. There's a lot of Twitter, right,

there's a lot of Facebook. There's a lot of stuff on both sides of the We're not going to be able to deal with all of it tonight, but we're going to do the best that we possibly can. And so, ladies and gentlemen, I would like you to respectfully get on your feet and give a good applause for the Man of God. Pastor Dean. Oh, look, come on up here, pastor, thank you for being at our house tonight. We honor you, We welcome you. Hollylujah, alrighty,

wonderful, well men, thank you brother. Well, we're gonna have a lively time tonight. It's going to be exciting. I want you to just, you know, kind of welcome the people and just kind of give us. And again, we won't take a long long time with this, but you know, hey, church, it until tomorrow. And you drove a long ways to get here, many of you, and so it's gonna be a good time. Kind of give us a just a working idea in the

ministry of how you were led into this. Well, I came experience Jesus, I mean in heaven a hell, and idn't know the glory of God was around me as I walked down the aisle. I don't even remember. I don't even remember I remember stepping out that I don't remember walking down it. And I got up there with the pastor and pray and accepted Jesus and

I was powerfully born again and baptized not long after that. But then, of course that I got into my teenage years and my parents divorced and so we quit going to church, and of course, like most teenagers, I got into my friends kind of drew me into alcohol and drugs and sexual immorality, and I got into all that real heavy during my high school years of my first year in college, and so when I got I was nineteen years old, I decided, well, I'm gonna go out and work. You

know. In fact, I was in Alabama's at Troy State University's now Troy, and I was really feeling depressed, and I was partying. You know, I was in Singwa Kai fraternity. I was getting drunk every night and partying every night, and I was getting burnout. And I had a modeling contract. I was supposed to be in the first Diehard movie and all that stuff, and so we're we're getting ready to do that. That's a Christmas movie, by the way, it is. We have my favorite ornaments,

the one where he's in the air duck and yeah. But I was gonna just go work for the summer. And I was gonna work for the summer and then go to Hollywood. Actually that's where I was headed. And God had other plans. The guy started working for started talking to me about Jesus, and I knew everything he's said was true. And then when he finally said used the scripture from Galatians, he said, no, drunkard's gonna inherit the Kingdom of God. And I was a drunkard man. And I was

convicted for three weeks. And then somewhere on my day off, about a month into this, the Holy Spirit spoke to me. The first time I really know that God spoke to me, and he said, son, you can have everything the world has to offer and go to Hell, or you can surrender your life to me and live forever. And he was making me choose, and I could see if I went to Hollywood, what was going to happen. The Lord just gave me a vision. I saw it,

and I said, well, Lord, I'm gonna go with you. And I told him, I said, Lord, I'm going with you, or I'm not going at all, when I'll be a hypocrite. And so I went and prayed with my boss that day and repented of my sins and really quit the drinking and the drugs and the alcohol and the sametual imorality, and turned my life over to Jesus. And I've had some powerful experiences with him. Just shortly after that, I had an open vision of Heaven, saw

him, he called me to the ministry. That's a whole other story. But so I started preaching when I was nineteen, preaching on the street and witnessing the people. My first convert was a high level Satanist, which and that was an experience. I learned a lot there and in fact, I've been doing deliverance since nineteen eighty seven. Brother. And then, of course, you know, then God began to progress me on and have me start

planting churches, and I did that. And I've done a little bit of everything, preaching prisons and did evangelism, and did college campus ministry all over the country and stuff like that, and been to preaching the Middle East. Spent time in Elize, Africa, the island of Mauritius out in the middle of the Indian Ocean. So I've led a lot of people to Jesus over the years. A lot of them are pastors now ministers now. So I've

been in the ministry a long time. And so in twenty two thousand and eight, I was in the church in Washington, d C. It was kind of under working on staff. I wasn't the head guy, and I found out that they were compromised in a lot of areas that they were actually semi pro abortion. It was It's horrible, and I knew the Lord wanted me to speak up and deal with it and confront it. So I did, and uh, the Lord told me said, they're gonna fire you on

November thirtieth. It is two thousand and eight. They're gonna fire you. And I said, yeah, okay, they're gonna fire you. And then when you do, I want you to go back to your hometown and start a church. So, uh, they fired me on November thirtieth, and I went back home and we started firing Grace Church in Open Lake, Alabama. We're right next door to Auburn University, so I'm aig Auburn fan, and that's where we started two thousand and nine. So fast forward. You

know, I preach on them just about everything. I talk about, the Nephelom, the giants, the alien stuff, the you know, I'll talk about everything. And that's why I'm going to this place because in twenty fifteen, the Lord spoke to me about two months before God really opened my eyes to this, and he said, he said, I got something else to show you, and it's big. And I thought, what in the world could it be. I mean, I'm already casting demons out of Christians.

I'm already you know, ostracized with that. I had to walk away from the assemblies of God just become independent, you know. And I said, what could it be? And so a friend of mine that I had gotten saved out in Hollywood, and this guy worked with all the big folks in Hollywood. He gotten saved and I was kind of mentoring and discipling him from a distance, and one day he just sent me this question. He said,

does firmament earth ring a bell? Now He's already a little strange being in Hollywood, but I was like, I was like, what is he talking about? I don't even know it. So he sent me this video and it said nothing about flat earth or biblical cosmology, said nothing about it in the beginning. But I just started watching it, and the first part of it was at about NASA's fakery where they've been called faking stuff with the ISS and all kind of stuff in the moonlandings and all that. And I

already didn't believe in the moonlanding. So he sent me this and I'm like, what is he talking about? But as he got about halfway through it, the Holy Spirit just came all over me. I knew. I said, you know what they've lied about everything, not just some things, but everything. And I begin to see, you know, the high altitude balloon footage and there is no curve, and the long distance photography and there is no curve, and we've done the experiments ourselves with and so I began to

see these things and I was like, Wow. And then I pulled the Bible out again and went back and go. You know, I began to realize, I have believed men what men had to say about God's creation instead of what the Bible just plainly said. And and I realized, you know, even in my younger days, when I was in my twenties and thirties, I would read Joshua ten where Joshua told the earth. He told, you know, he's standing on the earth and he tells the sun of the

moon to stop moving. And I would always say, wait a minute, little how does this happen? Because he didn't say tell the earth to stop spinning. So that always troubled me. I could never reconcile that in my mind with what I had been taught from a child. And once got opened my eyes to this, and then I began to see the evidence and into which I'm going to share a lot of that, I begin to see the

evidence. I pulled my Bible out, and I pulled out my strongs and my Greek and Hebrew dictionaries and lexicons and started going back to it all, you know, and I had to admit that I hadn't just taken God's word literally in those areas of how he described he created the earth, and that it was still in at rest, it was motionless, that it was stable, that it was not flying through this vast universe. That he didn't teach any of that. And so it took me about a month. I couldn't

sleep much because I just kept studying and studying and studying. And then finally the Lord had me share it to our church and I turned off everything. I turned off our public broadcast and said, I'm just going to share it to our church and see how how they respond. And it it's been amazing. And then that was eight years ago, and then it's been quite the bride since then. I mean, it's exploded and and here we are.

Yeah, but that's that's it. Yeah. A lot of our folks and even a lot of people watching maybe aren't as into this and understand the reality of it. And that's one of the reasons I think it's good that two

pastors are discussing and debating this from a biblical creationist standpoint. But what I find, and some of this, no doubt, is perception because this is so new to me, and you have to understand, I'm going to be a little bit guarded in the way that I discuss things tonight, because I can be very bombastic, right, and I don't want to seem abrasive. I don't want to come off as a jerk, for Jesus. But here,

here's one of the things that bothers me from the beginning. And I just want to ask you a couple of questions, because you're really the one that we brought here to explain maybe what we don't understand, what we're trying to figure out, right, And so there's no need for me to ask

myself these questions. And so the first one is I have a hard time with the people that see factual things and I'm not talking about curves and all that, and I'm not talking about looking out the window of an airplane and all of that. Right, we goun to argue that the cows come home.

But I watched this show, this Behind the Curve, right, and there were three times in that documentary where the evidence proved rotation and curvature, and in each occasion, the flat Earth individual said, ah, you know, it's it's not going the direction that we want it to go. And then of course they ended the whole show with well that's interesting, right, And so my question is why is it that when when we do come up with an argument, it seems like it doesn't matter what we say, you're

just not gonna believe it. So that makes sense. How can you just reh, yeah, oh understood, yes, because we show evidence and then everybody, you know, people go, well, I don't care. Here's the thing about whether it be the gyroscope, that electronic gyroscope, and I remember that. Now you've got to remember you've got to look at things like

it. Just because somebody does an experiment, that experiment has to be repeated again and again and again and observed again and again before you realize it. But see Michaelson Morley, the two scientists in the days of Einstein did an experiment, the famous one where they proved that the Earth was not moving through the ether. And the ether was an accepted concept back then, and really

more and more physicists of coming to accept the ether. Now. What the ether is is it's an unseen You can see it sometimes if you zoom it on the moon, but it's actually a dense type superfluid type gas. It gets more dense as you go up and I've talked about a lot, but here's what they discovered. When Michaels of Morley did their experiment, they did find one sixth movement. Okay, because the ether is moving. The ether's

what we believe. That the Sun and the moon are moving in a circuit, as the Bible says in Saw nineteen, that the Sun and the moon's moving in a circuit over us, and that they're at a certain altitude, and that literally that ether current is what's pushing it around. I found government documents that actually admit this, that they believe in the ether current, and

they believe in the ether. So the ether is moving. So certain instruments like when Michaelson Morley did their test to see if the Earth was moving and the gyroscope, sometimes they're going to pick up the movement of the ether and not necessarily does it mean that the Earth is spinning. Now, like one of the big arguments of the global side, the spinning ball side, is the folk called pendulum. But what we have discovered is that in Smithsonian I

actually have the documents. The Smithsonian admits that they use an electromagnet to move it. And my friend Matt Long is here who used to where are you at this area is back there. Matt Long used to work for a construction company that actually installed one of those electromagnets on the pendulum. So they say, they try to tell us in the media through the media, and the

agenda is that the Earth's spinning is what's moving the pendulum. But they you have tour guides that will admit when the folk called peddlum will admit that they have a motor on it, an electromagnet motor that that if it was left alone, it stand still, but they keep it moving. So what I'm saying is that there's a lot of stuff that they that's put out for evidence, but once you really look at it, and you could even find them admitting it, that it's kind of gets debunked real quick. But there's a

movement in the ether for sure. But let me just say this too. I spent I've spent hours. I was one of I am the one that put out the government documents because I spent one day. I sit down with a cup of coffee and at like nine o'clock in the morning and I didn't get up until five that that afternoon, digging through the freedom of Information Act Room where there's declassified documents there. I found Russian and United States Military, CIA, you name it, documents that it meant that we live on a

non rotating flat earth. And I could give you literally dozens and dozens and dozens of those documents that our government admits it, but they kept it secret from us. So what I'm saying is there's a lot of evidence and the original science. In fact, Einstein created his famous theory of relativity because once they that Michaelson Morley proved by scientific they admitted that their experiment proved that the Earth was not moving, but they could not accept that because there were hardcore

Copernicans and they just didn't accept it. And so he came up with the E equals MC squared theory. Right. But Tesla, Tesla said his theory was just a bunch of hogwashing and he was a fuzzy headed idiot, and Tesla was the one that was the real inventor and true scientists. So so what I'm saying is is that that it works both ways, you know, but you got to I will say this, people that are on our side, my side about this issue, the other side, that you have to

remember to this about us. We believed everything you believed before, you know, because that's what we were taught. You know, we didn't have a choice. I mean from childhood you on up. That's ingrained in your head that we're spinning and flying through an ever expanding universe. But here's the reason why you know that's not true. We can observe it. But see, remember, brainwashing stops you from being able to think it, even accept what

you observe. Now, they tell us we're going around the Earth sixty six thousand miles an hour sixty seven, I mean, it changes all the time, and they say that that's we're going around the Sun. Then they say that we're moving five hundred thousand miles an hour through our solar system. And then it says that our solar system is moving through the ever expanding galaxies at

half a million miles an hour. Now we do that, They say we're doing that, that we've been doing that for thousands of years, and yet Polaris, the North Star never moves. When somebody does time laps, focuses on the North Star and does time lapse for potography, the circles that the star the star trails are perfectly circular, and every night I can walk out of my house in point in a direction and Orion's belt will come up in

the same place every night. Now, if we're flying, spiraling, spinning through this through an ever expanding universe, then the stars we see should have changed. But we can look back at the ancient Egyptians and they were looking at the same stars and navigating the same way we do today. So just by what we observe and see, we are not a spinning ball in outer space and then flying through an endless space. That's just nonsense. Let me ask you a question, and we're going to get to a lot of that

more in detail when we both do our debate discussions. One of the things I have a hard time with is, you know, look, I get the government lies. One of the hard things about the flat earth idea, what I would call a flat earth theory, is there's a lot of conspiracy theories that are true that I believe in right, there's no doubt about that. And so it's almost like in us and them, you guys are the few enlightened people of reality, whereas I would say, well, of course

I know the election was stolen. Of course I know that vaccines are nonsense. Of course, I didn't close my church. We even put up a sign that said we're a mask free campus. We won't even allow you. We're a mask here. And so it's not like we're into all of the stuff, right, And so it seems like with this you know, us versus them football mentality, that we're tackling each other over some of the same

issues. Because yeah, there's a lot of things that you and I agree on, but then it's like you got to keep going deeper in the conspiracies and keep going deeper, and now you could agree with them all these things. But if you don't agree about the flat earth theory, the flat earth modeling concept, well then you don't really understand the Bible. I'm not saying you can't be saved. I don't believe you believe that either. You don't

really understand the word. You're not really enlightened and like the rest of us. But then we know, you know government NASA lies. But here's the problem that I have. And probably in your presentation you'll talk about some of those documents. I've read every one of those documents that you released, Yet I see them release some of them, Well, the ones that you have released publicly. I read all of them that I wanted to be very thorough. But here's the issue. NASA bad, NASA bad, NASA bad.

But these NASA documents that I just released tell you that NASA is telling the truth. So I don't understand the discrepancy, and I'm just being honest about that. Well, it's simple. When these documents were top secret, meaning if you divulge the information that was in them before they were released through the freedom of information, that you went to prison by accused of treason. Okay, So the government will hide things like Okay, the mk Ultra program,

we'll use that example. The mk Ultra program was denied by our government for decades and decades and decades. They Operation paper Clip after World War Two, they brought all the Nazi scientists over here, gave them immunity, and they basically started the mind control program. Is called mk Ultra, is called Operation Artichoke mocking Bird. Right, So all of this was done the United States

government, the Canadian government was involved, all right. All of this was kept top secret until it got leaked out in the seventies and through the Church Committee, and it got leaked out, and then they found the documents buried in the CIA headquarters and they had destroyed. Matter of fact that the CIA director Allen Dullas, had destroyed about two hundred thousand documents trying to cover it up. But they found some hidden in another office. So all the truth

came out. So what I'm saying is the truth came out in the seventies and finally, actually Bill Clinton, President Bill Clinton actually apologized because experiments were done on human beings mind control using drugs, and physical abuse and sexual abuse, and sometimes against people's will without their knowledge, and some people died in those experiments that the CIA was doing. Now you could look back and go back then and say, oh, that's a conspiracy. See uh, and

the government, you know, the government covered it up. But when those documents come out that were kept secret, now we know, okay, they they were discussing this between them, and they have to do that. And it's the same way with NASA, and it's the same way with our other government agencies and military. They don't tell us everything what they actually do.

And then the Freedom of Information Act, I'm gonnaell you this. I believe the Freedom of Information Act is Jesus made them do because Jesus said, everything done in secret and spoken in secret, it's gonna be shouted from the rooftops. And I actually believe it's a rule that God, God has made them start revealing things to us. And so that's that's easy to determine it.

I look at a document that's top secret. It was kept top secret from us for years and years and years and decades, and finally now it's released. Oh, I can go. I see why they were hiding. It got you, all right, I know you're going to talk a little bit about those documents, and so let me let me just kind of move on into the question because I'm really anxious to get you hooked up and let you start doing your actual presentation and make sure the guys have the core to the

computer and all of that. Ready, Okay, the age old question is why don't you guys still have an actual map? Why do you have a model but not a scaled map? Nobody does you know that all of our maps are wrong, every single one of them. Well, we have a scale, and you can tell me that this is two hundred miles apart from certain towns, and I can look at the scale and a regular map, and I can drive it's exactly two hundred miles. Works really well. And

again you have to know how to use map. Maps have different scales and different different things that you look at. But bottom line is is that all maps are wrong. The projection map, one of the Mercader maps show way show Iceland like bigger than Africa, and that's not true. So what I'm saying is nobody has a true, accurate, to the perfect map. That's just a fact. Not your side, not my side. We're still working on. But we can travel based off our model and based off our map

and get exactly where we want to get. But you can't do that on the model of the flat earth. It's not true. And even Africa is like three thousand miles wider than it's supposed to be because it's looking down on a spherical earth and it's just been flattened out. It's it's absolutely not true. That is one hundred percent truth. No, it's not, No, it's not. In fact. Navigation and I have this in my book.

Navigation is called the great circle navigation. Ye, great sphere navigation. All right, so everything, yeah, but every pilot will tell you that's an actual commercial airline pilot. Where's my army pilot. Where's my army pilot? Yeah, stand up, army pilot, where are you? Okay? See, So what I'm saying is not every pilot to tell you that I have

a friend. Good dear, commercial airline polot will tell you that. A commercial pilot will tell you I have multiple in fact, because I don't want to get on the plane of a guy that doesn't know about the rotation of the Earth, because I'll end up in the wrong place. That's the entire idea, because okay, they say, this's a perfect example what I'm talking about. All right, if you if you believe the Earth is spinning, and if you believe in the Coriolis effect, that you have to definitely believe

in the Coreolis is not even in the Seal manual. And I have a Seal friend. So what I'm going to tell you right now is that if that was happening, you could not land a plane on a north south runway because if the Earth is spinning at one thousand miles an hour and an airplane is flying at five hundred miles an hour, and you have to count in velocity and you have to figure all that in. They could not land on a north south runway. It's impossible. Gyroscopes in planes tell the pilot that

they're flying flattening level. And many, many pilots have come out and F sixteen pilots come out and a whistleblower and said it's flat. He knows it. Here's another thing you see F sixteen. I've been down in Pensacola where you see the blue Angels do their thing. They will fly fifty feet off of the water, breaking the sound barrier. Okay, now that means that they are moving over seven hundred miles an hour, right, they break the

sound barrier. Sometimes they're flying at mock two in a straight line. Now, if they're flying that fast in the Earth's curving, and most people don't on your side, do not know how much the Earth curves. They don't even know the formula. But it's eight inches per mile square. Now, if you do that going that fast, you're going to have to be nosing the plane down. In fact, if you're going five hundred miles an hour, you're gonna be nosing the plane down like two thousand feet, which is

over half a mile. Every few minutes right, if you're flying at mock two, it's incredible. They would have to be nosing the plane down continually. And pilots will tell you that they never knowse their plane down to follow the curvature of the Earth. That is a fact that they don't have to have their nose down to follow the curvature of the Earth. They fly at altitude, and altitude takes care of the curvature of the Earth. That's the

entire point of a pilot. That's how he keeps the plane in the air. Let me just say that you got a nose down and go around the Earth. Explain something about aerodynamics, aero dynams. So tell you right now, you cannot fly a plane at mock two. You cannot fly a plane in any curve. I don't care if it's this way, this way, or this way. They do not fly. They will come apart. That's why the s R seventy one, there was one time it just came to

pieces. It had to fly straight and level or it would just burn up and tear apart. So no, I'm sorry. They don't nose the plane down on So you've never seen a plane curve, You've never seen a plane do flips, go up, go down, barrel roll you hear you, no, No, What you're talking about is you're going somewhere else with this. That's different When I'm talking a plane flying at mock one, Mock two, mock three, they're not noticing the plane down yet. I don't travel

to go preach at mak one monk two. I'm talking about real people understanding the science behind this, not just speculations of being able to say, well, a lot of pilots have come out, well, I would like to see one of them, because here they got one. They're not They're not here. He just said he wasn't a military pilot, got hell. And these are the people. These are then the white shirt guy, commercial airline

pilot, Army pilot, commercial airline pilot. What difference is that because the people that want to talk are helicopter pilots are the only flat earthers I've ever met, and I've only met three of them, which is fine. And then people that fly out small planes for small distances, because if you're going to get in an airplane and I know you guys hate the soun o,

their hemisphere and all that kind of stuff. I'm telling you there is no possible way to make it from point A to point B without curvature and rotation of the Earth. It's an impossibility. Now, I know your side does not believe in that, but to say that, you guys have professional surveyors

that survey I'm not talking about little bitty areas or pilot. Okay, let me bring this up you since you bring up surveyors, Geological US Geological Survey YEP is very clear that they don't even count curvature over one hundred square miles. Well, you know what that's about, foolish because either they don't No, they counted as flat over one hundred square miles. They count the Earth's flat. Do you know how much curvature is it one hundred miles supposed to

be there? Well, we have a surveyor in the room tall No oh, no, I'm asking you. Do you know how much curvature of the Earth is supposed to be there in one hundred miles? Well, if you use the parabolic approximation, which is the zetetic astronomy, which is nonsense because that's a curve is an art she would look like the world would look like the Saint Louis Art. No, you're that, that is not it. Every scientist, I have a PhD in physics here with me. That's highly

sought after across the world by Google and NIH and everything else. She will tell you that if you're going to have a ball that's twenty four nine hundred and one miles in circumference and it's a perfect sphere, right, you have a sphere. And that's what NASA shows us is a perfect sphere, though Nildagrass Tyson says it's a pear shape thing. Right, But here we go, Here we go. If you have a sphere, it's not a perfect sphere, but I get it. Go ahead, Well that's the pictures they

give us. So somebody's wrong. But here's the thing. If it's curving, if it's if it's a sphere twenty four thousand, nine hundred and one miles, the math does not lie. It is eight inches per mile squared at the equator. And actually if you go up the ball going east and west, it actually increases to nine and a quarter nine and a half. It actually the curve gets worse. So no, these are things we can calculate, and they're not arguing, I have engineers and PhDs in physics who

will explain to you the math if you need explain to you. But I don't know where you're coming from with that crazy stuff. The Earth, if it is the ball, it comes right out of the z Tech Astronomy book from Samuel Robot. No, no, no it doesn't. I don't know. I've never even read his book. Know, this math is very clear. It's as clear as it gets. Where's my PhD in physics? Please stand? What's the square? I'm gonna just ask you to raise your hand.

Is it approximation? Does the Earth if it's a sphere curving twenty four nine hundred one miles of the comfort does is that an average of eight inches per mile square? Yes? Right? But the square is an approximation? Yes or no? No? Absolutely, and it is seven point nine inches. It's accurate. It's very accurate. So, like I said, it's it's that's a PhD in physics. Now if you want to go art. She does experiments at Tuskegee University in Alabama, and like I said, she

knows what she's talking about. So that's why I brought these people, because we're not going to go down these these crazy roads. I mean the math is math, yeah, exactly, Yeah, and the math is not in your favor, and so I mean, yeah, anybody could bring testimonies, any growing big doctors PhDs. That's fine. But the squared is an approximation. It's a parabolic approximation for an arts that's one hundred percent the fact. No, that's that's one hundred percent true. No, No, it's not,

it is. It is not. If you draw a circle, you can figure out how much is curving. Yeah, so at the end of the day. So at the end of the day, parabolic approximate. It is an approximation. But the question still has to be answered, regardless of how off our maps are, which we can navigate very well with him, why is there no real map for the model of the flat Earth? Why is there no curvature when we go out with Heizoo cast. It's not what I ask. No, No, I can ask whatever I want to ask.

Look, look, I don't agree with you about that. I know that's I just want an answer to the question, is there an actual map that can be produced? Like we have a map, we don't have a model. We have a map and an entire model that can be made predictions off of I've already answered the question. There are no predictions I'm not answering again that can be made from a flat Earth model. All the maps are wrong, All the maps are wrong. All the maps are wrong. All

the maps are wrong, and they know it. So then why isn't your map wrong? When you say Antarctica encircles the entire disc and the North Pole is right in the middle. Why isn't your map wrong? But our map is wrong? But the model proves that all the predictions for our map are a thousand percent correct. They're not the early Listen, You've got to understand that there are people. That's why they I do understand. That's why I'm

asking you the question. You interrupted me. I tell you what, I'm not gonna do this interruption thing, all right, I'm not so we can just go to a presentation that we're gonna do this. I'm not doing it. I just want you to answer the question. No, No, I'm not doing it. Why I'm not gonna do this interrupt Because I started giving answer, you interrupt me. No, I answered the question. I'm not doing it. I'll give you thirty seconds of silence. Why do you not

have a map or a model that can make predictions what we do. We do, and I want to tell you it's been very accurate. The astro labe is another instrument that's that's proved this. It's based on a flat, non rotating earthlab That's how they navigated Seas long before we got to this nonsense. Okay about their spinning ball thing, it's always been based on Even the compass itself is based on a flat circular or not. It doesn't work if

you're down here. It's not pointing through the ball. So what I'm saying thing is is that bottom line that is not even. That is not even the argument. The argument is not there. We know there's discrepancies in the maps, and the early explorers who went into the Arctic region, who used the instruments that they had based on a sphere trying to they would always find themselves out of reckoning, they said, sometimes extreme out of reckoning when they

went there. I document all this, Captain Ross and all these others. I document captain after captain after captain who before they had to lie and before there was NASA that when you go into the southern part the Southern hemisphere vest what do you want to call it when you go there, that they are out of reckoning, trying to base their navigation on a sphere that's documented history. Well, I mean, you can make a dead man say anything,

So it's easy to talk about what used to happen back then. We have more technology now than the world's ever imagined, and it's growing every day. So why can't you do those same things now? Why do you always have

to talk about these people that used to try to do this? Did you know right now there's between one and five thousand people on the continent, the continent of Antarctica, and people are like, well, you know, NASA's there, and there's these you know, gunny penguins that are keeping people from getting it. It's just it's this fantastical nonsense where people have flown over it, taken pictures. You know, people have circumnat that. All of these

people have circumnavigated Antarctica. You can buy a cruise ticket, all right, you can buy a cruise ticket and go to Antarctica. And here's what's interesting. In twenty nineteen, the flat Earth folks were going to take a cruise to Antarctica to prove their thoughts. Nothing ever came of it. Here. Let me explain that to you. You could fly there today. No, no, you can ye fly there and see the coastline. That's about all you can do a little bit. Oh absolutely, oh yes, oh yes.

And if you want to go there and stay, oh no, you have to have permission from a government. Have you ever seen the amount of stuff you have to fill out to go through this? And also they're not gonna let you go in an expedition inland just as a just as a you know, me or you. They're not gonna let that happen. And here's another thing. If you know, this would be easy to prove, but they hide this from us too. All we'd have to prove is is go

to Antarctica. Let me and you go to Antarctica. Spend a week there in the summer, and let's see if the sun does a three hundred and sixty degree circle all the way around as if so, it's a ball. But if the sun comes in this way and then leaves that way, then

it's not. It is what we say it is. And there's been they've had they have they have webcam videos, right at the Antarctica, and there'll be a flagpole sitting there, and and so if the sun's coming in this way, you should have a shadow here, and then it comes in and it should be here, and then it comes over here, and then it should just be back here. What they do is they never let you see

twenty four hours a day. They never let you. They cut the tape, they edit it, and Jiring of Jeronism actually has emails from them asking why are you cutting the video, And they're giving these stupid explanations like, oh, well it's too cold, we can't run it for twenty four hours. We can run it for sixteen to eighteen hours, we can't run it for twenty four All the footage as doctors, doctor, and they minutes doctors. So then why can't we go and just see it for ourselves. Well,

let's just see if they'll let us. Oh, they will let us. I've already checked into it. They'll absolutely let us. Let's go. They will absolutely let us. And not only will they absolutely let us, I've got a cattle rancher in Texas that will pay for the entire trip. Let's do it. It'll fly right to Antarctica. We stay one week inland. They gonna let us stay one week inland. Oh, absolutely, there's people in land right now. Well, yeah, they all work for different

governments of the world. Nah, you can't, you can't. You don't get to use the governments of the world. There's a lot of treaty man Antarctica treaty. You read it. You know what I did, every line of it, and none of it has anything to do with militarization of the area. It even says peaceful expedition. There are people that live in They go there by himself and he was seized and arrested and put in jail. All right, So don't tell me that you can't. So you expect me

to change my entire theology over one man that got turned away? Go ahead, I say you what, that's crazy, train, Why don't you try? Absolutely right? No, no, no, you agreed to go with me without government approval. You agreed to go with me, go there without filling out the forms, and see what happens. Why would I go without filling out the forms when I can plainly fill out the forms, buy a ticket and go and they will let me in. All I say is,

don't talk about it. Until it's done. You hadn't proved that it's been done. No, no, no, over and over and over and being done right now, been there, then you're just taking the word of people. You hadn't been there, just like you taking the word of people about space. You hadn't been in space, so you don't know it's real. You just have faith in people that are telling you a story. Okay. I mean, we play that game all day long. So there's nothing I

can believe about anything because I've not done it. I've not been there. If you can't witness it with your own eyes, you have to be able to question. That's ridiculous because the Bible says God is a spirit and they that worship him must worship him and spirit and in truth. And if you deny the reality because you can't see God, therefore you don't worship God. That's heresy. And we're not even on the same Christian page. Look at it, we mean, look at this. Your people are just talking about

the physical world and then you start talking about God. That's not what we're talking about. If there is no physical world without God, the physical world is what we're talking about. We're we are talking about the physical world. The heavens declare the glory of God. Have you been to outer space? I don't have to go to outer space. I believe it telescope, I can look at it. Oh my gosh. Okay, is this what we're doing. I'm gonna tell you Gray, I'm not doing this because you have

no answers. I have given you plenty of answers. Stop. Hold on, hold on, we're stopping right now. Hold on a second. I didn't come here to have an argument, okay. I came here to have a debate where we look at the scriptures. So we're gonna look at the scriptures. I'm gonna tell you right now. We got to set the tone before we look at the scriptures, because we got to get through all this crazy trained nonsense so we can understand what the Bible actually says. All right,

we're spending we're spending one thousand miles an hour. We're flying at sixty six thousand miles an hour, sixty seven. They change it regularly, five hundred thousand miles an hours through your space that you believe in and get our show. I don't go. Your star has never changed. I know the Earth rotates one time a day, one thousand miles one thousand miles an hour, and I believe in the sixty six I don't know about all this.

The whole galaxy's moved. If there are people in this room that believe the Earth is stationary but want to convince me of upward acceleration instead of gravity, that's not true. Nobody believes that, truly believe that that. I know. Nobody believes in upward acceleration in the form of to misplaced gravity. Do you hear it? No, we don't know. No, that's the Flat Earth Society. They're controlled opposition. They believe a bunch of nonsense like a

pancake. So the flat Earth system. So y'all, okay, So y'all don't get along with the Flat Earth Society. They're what do you call them shields? Yeah? So okay, Look, this is what I have a hard time with. There are like nine different models or beliefs about flat Earth, and I don't understand who's right, who's wrong? Why is flat Earth Society wrong? But why are you guys correct? You know, you see what I'm saying. That's what I don't understand. And so just shouting things

is not gonna help. The reason people can't fathom this is because there's so many different belief systems about it, whereas we have one model that works. Yeah, because you've been bringing washed with it since you were born. That's why you have one model. That's what they wanted you to believe. But listen, we can go back. We go okay, we can go back to the scientists who believed, you know, the people that y'all looked to for this, you know that created it. I don't look at any of

them, Copernicus and all them. Look, they were thinking the Sun was three million miles away. Then it was twelve million miles away. Now it's ninety three million miles away. So don't tell me about you guys have been working on this because there's technological advancements across the age. But again, it's been changing all the time, and I don't believe the sun's ninety three million miles away at all. In fact, there's evidence to prove that it's not.

So what I'm getting at is we can do, like I said, we can do this little argument right here all day long. But I didn't come to argue like this. I mean, I mean, maybe you want to make a show out of it. But I'm not here to argue, like I just want to answer the questions that I don't have the answers to that I'm trying to figure out. Well I gave they're very simple questions. Very you know you're not gonna play. Look, here's what you're doing.

You're playing this little game here with me. You don't have an answer. You don't have an answer because I'm not a flat Earth. Now hold on, hold on, I'm talking about your model. You do not have an answer as to why we've been flying through this ever expanding universe at five hundred years. Well, I do have an answer. Hold on, And the stars never changed in our view. Ever, that's not true. That is true. That is true because I've been I've been looking at it for a

long time. It is true. Well, go to the southern hemisphere and look at the same ones I've looked at it. I know you've been Hemisphere I and you've looked up. Can you see Polaris from the southern hemisphere? Sometimes you can, It depends. You never can. No, no, no, to a certain degree south you can. But here's the thing. In our model, the biblical model, I believe and we believe that both the Sun and the Moon are much smaller and much lower and closer to the

Earth, as well as the stars same size. We don't. Yeah, we believe there's the same size, and we don't believe we don't believe the stars are some distant allexies that are trivillions of miles away. I believe the stars are much closer. So when things are smaller and closer, when you move away from them, you don't get to see them because of perspective. It's anything like I've got a video i'll show you in a minute where a guy puts his camera on the ground on a flat football field and he starts

walking away from it. Well, he starts walking away from it. His feet disappear first, and then he gets up to his knees and then up to his waist, and then by the time he's at the end of the football field, he can squat down. You can't see he hadn't left the flat football field, right. It's a matter of perspective. And so what happens is like the sun doesn't go down, it doesn't go around a curve, It just simply gets too far away for us to see because it's lower

and smaller, and it gets further away. And it's actually what the Bible says. The Bible doesn't say, you know, the King James will say, except the sun goes up and down. If you look the word up, it's bow in the Hebrew. And it means just to come in and go out. It's all. It means, like to walk in. It says like to walk in the front door and walk out the back door. It's not talking about going over a curve. And so again that's what I'm

talking about our model and then and that's what we get it. I'm not you try to take your model and apply stuff to it. To ours, they're completely different. Oh they're way different. There's no doubt about that. Different. And I'm not trying to amalgamate the two. There is no amalgamation in them. Okay, there's no way I can believe that the sun and moon of the same size and the what thirty two miles wide? Is that something like that, like three thousand miles? Why can't I go out in

the middle of the night and get a telescope and find the sun? You can't because every instrument I don't care what we have. I don't care. If it's the most powerful instrument you've got, it has a limit to its vision. I have most of us in here have a P nine hundred. Yeah, but I'm talking about like a telescope. Yeah, we've used telescopes. We've used so why can't I find the sun If it's only three thousand miles it's too far away, and it's moving even a thousand miles an hour,

and it's moving too far away. Again, it's perspective. It's like anything. I don't care. You can drive a car down the road and sooner or later, it's even if you're in New Mexico or Arizona, sooner or later it's going to disappear from your vision. Though it's still on the road, it's still going. And then you can take a high zoom camera and you can pull it back in and catch it again. But eventually, as it keeps going, it's going to get out of the range of that

high zoom camera or telescope. They're not Every telescope and every camera, no matter how powerful its optical abilities, it still has a limit to it. So it runs out. And so what happens to us We have a convergence the way we see things. Everything goes down like this to a point. That's why when you see a plane, a plane can be flying in us from this direction, and it can be maintaining an altitude of forty thousand feet, But when you're looking at it coming at you, it's going to be

low on the horizon. Then it's going to look like it's high above your head as it goes over you. Your eyes are seeing it as it's going down this way, and it's never changed altitude. That's the same with the sun or the moon of the stars. It can't be the same with the sun, the moon and the stars. That's an impossibility. And you disagree,

I disagree. I disagree. You can't have a sun and a moon that are the same size and stay in the exact whatever if y'all use the phrase orbit in the exact same orbit, in the exact same path, in the exact it's an impossibility to have that. There's no way in that model. You don't understand that that scientifically was I don't understand the model because it doesn't work well. Our government sure thinks it works. How does our government

think it works? They tell you everything. They even base their aircraft flying off a non rotating flat earth. They programmed it. Listen, I have a document from nineteen sixty two. Now, we already had satellites, right in nineteen fifty eight, first satellite, Echo satellite. They this is funny. They tell us that it had one hundred basically one hundred yard my lar balloon and it went into outer space. Yeah. Right, here's the thing.

Nineteen sixty one sixty two. I have the document there was classified, meaning that if you exposed it, you were going to prison. In that document it says that to NASA scientists, rocket scientists program their IBM computer to track missiles in space based on a non rotating flat earth, and that document was classified. Now they programmed their computers. So if it's not flat and non rotating, why on Earth would two rocket scientists from NASA program their computer

to track a missile in space that way? So when I say, the government believes it because they have to build things to work the way the Earth really is and the way the system really is. But they just don't tell you that you have to dig and find that out. Well, we have a military got how many military folks do we have in the building on either side, If your military stand up, if your military stand up all over the room, thank you for your service, thank you, thank you,

thank you. All right, do you, then, any of you on your side? And I'm asking politely, do you deny the reality that our government has spent billions of dollars on over the horizon missile systems. Why would they build over the horizon missile systems unless they were gonna shoot them over the horizon for the curvature of the earth, for an enemy that you can't see. Here's the fact. Have you interviewed a I interviewed a guy named Sean.

He's in my book. He was a sparrow missile instructor for the Navy. And I interviewed him and I said, tell me about your laser weapon on your ship. Now, the Navy has a laser weapon. I actually have the article. I actually have it in this The Navy has a laser weapon. That is clearly lasers or line of sight. They don't bend over a curve. But I'm talking about the ones that do. I no, no, over the You can shoot Okay, let's let's give you your alleged

curve. Yes, you can shoot a projectile up in the air over a curve and then make it land where you want to. All right, hold on, I'm talk about shooting straight prog. Nothing does this. Laser doesn't do this. I'm not asking about a laser. I'm telling you about a weapon system. Now you want to talk about your weapon system. I want to talk about mine, all right, But I asked you about mine because I asked the question, and I just said, I don't know exactly what

weapon you're talking about. I'm being specific. What weapon are you talking about? Over the horizon missile system? Which is a missile that shoots across the ground over the horizon because of the curvature of the earth and hits an intended target that you can't see because of the curvature of the earth. Okay, here, what I'm about to say, I don't care about that. I'm telling you. I'm going to tell you what. No, no, no, no, don't interrupt me, because if you interrupt me, we're just

gonna be done. Because I'm not gonna be interrupted. We were done when we got started. I can tell you that. But you know, my brother is a lieutenant colonel in the military. My friend lieutenant colonel. Then I won't stand up, and I want him to publicly deny over the horizon missile systems in the United States military. Let's stop right there, all right, I'm gonna tell you about a laser because we know lasers are line of

sight weapons. Right, my lieutenant colonel friend, he actually speaks fluent Russian, taught at West Point, and will tell you that there not only are their radar, but laser weapons or line of sight weapons. The Navy, it mints in their defense magazine that their laser weapon that has no curvature to it whatsoever, it's not curving, can shoot down Russian and Chinese cruise missiles

flying fifty feet over the water over one hundred miles away. Now, let me explain to you what one hundred miles is, because you didn't know, you didn't know a minute ago, what curvags are supposed to be there at a hundred miles. I'll tell you. If the Earth is a sphere twenty four nine hundred one miles circumference, the eight inches per mile squared on average means that in one hundred miles there should be six thousand, six hundred and

sixty six feet of curvature. That's well over a mile of curves. There is no laser weapon shooting from a navy doing this to hit a missile moving at mock four. I'm sorry, but the Navy admits by that the Earth is level and non rotating. I can assure you the United States military does not admit that the Earth is flat. And if it does, then how come you can't trust him? But now you can trust him. You see, you only answered that question. You only trust people that are on your

side. You never trust anybody that has an opposing side. Not true, that one hundred percent true. I've I've listened to all kinds of people about this stuff. I've interviewed all kinds of people. I guarantee you I've done far more research than you have on this issue. Oh, I guarantee you, after this debate, I'll never research this foolishness again. I can promise you that right now we'll see. That means you've already made up your mind.

I have made up my mind because I'm about to show you from the Bible God's made up his mind. I love to see that you're about to I know you can't do this. You get to go first, So get your computer and get that thing hooked upcause I got a lot of questions I could ask, Hey, shook his flook us up straight up? Ass yeah, get his up up fronts. There's supposed to be a car cord for in my hears all right, there it in this one. M hm.

So we're an hour in and we've hardly gotten any Bible verses. You're listening. I'm actually recording this live the Great Flat Earth Debate with Pastor Dean Odle and Pastor Greg Lock. Pastor greg Lock has been I think a lot of people I'm watching the live chat, it's been a little disappointing. He certainly did not come this with an open mind. I don't know. Hopefully he'll be a little more open both sides and you know, share the knowledge.

And but Pastor Lockett, like he just said, he's already made his mind up. So I'm not even sure at this point why he invited Pastor Dean Odle to come and bring this presentation if he was going to be rude like that, right, I just don't get it. But hopefully this coming hour he's setting up his computer right now, Pastor Odle is and he's about to give his presentation and hopefully he can give it openly without being mocked. But the one surprising thing to me, and again I'll jump right back in.

He's about to go on. But the one surprising thing to me again is how closed minded Pastor Locke is. If you're going to invite somebody, if you're gonna have a guest, you need to be open minded. We're gonna turn it back over. It looks like Pastor Otle is about to start. I have no idea exactly at least all right, absolutely, guy in the green is one helping man went, m hmm, there's an issue about all right, she couldn't find your purser. Mhmm. Pastor Mansa couldn't find her

with your person. But we don't want to start a tcher. They're still working it out there having an audio issue. But reading some of the comments, it's pretty interesting when person noted, where's Pastor Locke going to explain heliocentrism in the Bible? And somebody did mention kind of what I did. Why would they, you know, why would Pastor Locke make it argumentive when you're

in the house of God? Right, So again, hopefully we don't need pride, you know what I mean people should be willing to admit and have an open mind, and because you know, as an adult, you've changed your mind tens of thousands of time and looked at things differently. But it's quite obvious that Pastor Locke is not going to back down. He's not going to change his mind, and obviously he's not going to be open minded.

We'll see, maybe he'll change. And one thing that everybody has made a point of in the chat room was that Pastor Locke made his microphone much louder than Pastor Dean's. I noticed that pretty quickly as well. And I'm not even talking about you know, that little eight second audio gaff at the very very beginning of the presentation. So I'd like to hear your thoughts as they're still you know, I'm recording this live. It's Saturday night, eight oh

four pm Eastern time. According to my recorder, we're about an hour and three minutes in to this presentation. I do really hope that he does have an open mind, because it's the most important thing. Is the word I got here goes all right, everybody. I think we're ready to get started here, and I'm gonna show some things I'm gonna go through. I actually have a lot of slides, but I'm gonna try to get through them as quickly as possible. What's that, Let's pray I agree with that. Father

and Heaven. We come to you today, and we just thank you for this time, and we thank you for this opportunity. Just open, Lord, just pray you just open hearts and minds right now to hear your word for what it says. It's not metaphors and similes and illustrations. That Lord, your word. You said exactly what you meant about how the Earth is and how your universe is. And we believe that, God, and we thank you for it. And we just pray for your peace and your truth

right now to go forth in Jesus name. Amen. Now, let me just go ahead and state this out front. When it comes to the Bible, it's without question a flat, non rotating, geocentric earth. That's the way it is. The only way the other side gets to make it a spinning, flying sphere is that they have to say all those passages about the pillars of the Earth and the foundation of the earth and the Earth doesn't move. That that is just metaphors. That's just poetry. But folks, I'm

going to read this scripture here. We're gonna read a few scriptures first to start off with. And this is tewod Peter one sixteen through twenty. You guys can put it on the screen for everybody. Let's read this, he says, For we have not followed cunningly devised fables when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eye witnesses

of his majesty. For he received from God, the Father, honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent Glory. This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice, which came from Heaven, we heard when we were with him in the Holy Mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy, where until you do well that you take heed as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn and the day star arise in your

hearts. Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy ghosts. Now here's the other scripture. We're going to go through all scriptures second time, twenty three sixteen, all scripture, even the parts that they want to call metaphors and poetry. And I think Pastor Gregg called one he

said hyperboleeve. But hyperbole means exaggeration and lives and God doesn't do that. The Bible doesn't use those things. God means what he says. Now there's few, there's symbolic language. I'll say, like frist Is, let's talk about a symbolic language. The Bible talks about a seven head, ten horned beast in the Book of Revelation, and then Daniel right, But that seven head ten horned beasts we find out as a literal thing. It's going to

be a world government. In fact, the United Nations has already become that a seven head ten horn beast. You have the five on the Permanent Council, you have the P five plus one, which is Germany win six, and then the EU head comes in when they have a serious problem like the the Iranian nuclear deal. So you have seven heads, and then under that you have ten rotating positions. So literally, the un that's going to end

up being a world government has already seven heads and ten horns. So even though there's symbolic language at times in the Bible is talking about something that's real, okay, and that was what we need to agree on. But all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine. So the moment somebody says, well, what the Bible says in the Book of Job or whatever about creation, does it matter? No, it matters because it's

profitable for doctrine. Right. See, the thing about it is, I'm not going to have to do theological jumping jacks to agree with the secular system about how the creation is. I can just stick with the word of God all right now, when he says here, all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction, and righteousness, that the Man of God may be perfect thoroughly furnished

under all good works. This will not hear Revelation twelve nine, And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the devil, and say, which deceiveth the whole world? He was cast into the Earth and his angels were cast out with him. Now we are told, this is in the Book of Revelation, chapter twelve, that that Satan would deceive the whole

world. How is it that we think that Satan, who is invisible, who has power, who actually has people who serve him in the government and the militaries of the world, how is it that we think if we gave him sixty million dollars a day, which is NASA's budget, that he couldn't deceive the whole world with something. And we know from the Bible that the number one way we know there's a creator, and that leads us to a

creator. It says that we're without excuse is the creation. So if you were the devil and you wanted to lead people away from the Bible and finding Jesus as their Lord and savior, you would need to twist the creation's story to make it completely wrong and get people to believe that your version of it is right and the Bibles is wrong. All right, but that's exactly what Satan has done. Now, people old Christians, when they come up, they ask, well, why does this matter? Well, we're gonna find

out in just a second. But here's another verse, people don't talk about conspiracy. Look, there's conspiracy theories and then there's conspiracy facts. Lord, when they tell you, like, for instance, they're going to make a vaccine, well Bill Gates said this in twenty ten. He said, when they say, oh, yeah, we're going to lower the population of the world through new vaccines. Now they just told you what they're gonna do. Most people can't even believe that. But it's already been happening. Now.

The Bible says there's going to be a massive plot, a massive conspiracy against the God of the Bible and his messiah, Jesus Christ. We read it right here, Psalm I. Why are the heathen rage and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, let us

break their bands asunder and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens, though shall laugh and shall have them in derision, Then shall he speak it to them in his wrath, them in his sore displeasure. So he tells us here that the evil and this is the Last Day's context He's going to talk about the Messiah coming and ruling with a rod of iron. Jesus is going to return and fix everything right. But he tells us that the kings of the earth are going to take counsel, and actually

the Amplifi says they're going to bring together a plot. And yes, so they're all in on it. Every lie that's out there, folks, whether it be about creation I mean, or whatever, every lie out there is to turn people away from the truth of God's work. You understand. That's what this is over. We can sit here and argue maps and models, and I have my military experts and he has he is. We can argue this stuff all day long. But the bottom line is the fruit the fruit

of what's going on, and does the Bible say it? But there is a plot. Now, let me show you part of where that plot is. Let's go to Romans. Here we go to Romans. He says. Here, this is Romans one eighteen through twenty. He says, for the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold the truth. Now, this word in the Greek hole means to hold

down, suppress, withhold. He says that there are men who withhold the truth, because that which may be known of God is manifest in them. For God has showed it under them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power in Godhead, so that they are without excuse. So he tells us here that part of the plot, remember Acts, I mean Psalm too, we just read part of the plot. Is this

hiding the truth about creation? Suppressing it? They know there's a firmament. They tried to blow it up in the nineteen sixties with Operation Fishbowl. Glad it didn't work. Right. Now, let's keep going here, not that wrong one. Here we are now, this is what Pastor greg said when his first rant here he said, I don't care about biblical cosmology. There is no such thing. It's man made. A few minutes later he said,

I want to be fair to that side. Because we've been lied to in a bunch of other areas does not mean we've been lied to about the shape and cosmology of the Earth. Well, it's cosmology a thing? Or is it not a thing? I just wondering but cosmology is simply the definition. Cosmology is the science of the universe. Cosmology is the study of the universe as a whole from its origin. And of course they use the term evolution. That we don't believe in evolution, but they it's about the origin

of the universe. All right, this is what it's about. Now. The world system has their version of this. They believe in a big bang, that nothing exploded and created everything, right, which that's to me is mind blowing how they believe this. But this is their thing. Is the next let me see, did I do it? That one's right there? So they're big bang? Look at it. Look at billions of years, these galaxies and stars and all this stuff. This is their version. But

this is not God's version. Now let me ask you a question. We would think it's ridiculous. Now, like modern science. Modern science says that we evolved from the primordial goo, and these creatures came along, and then we finally became primates, and then we finally, after millions and zillions of years, we evolved from primates or monkeys. Now, why as Christians do we not believe that number one, there is no evidence if there was millions

of years of this transitional phase. There would be skeletons and fossils of this transitional phase. So number one, there's no evidence that we can see. And the Bible clearly teaches that we didn't come from monkeys. Over millions and billions year now, we don't believe the scientists. Scientists would get up here and tell you it's a fact that we came from monkeys, but we don't accept that that we're gonna accept their version. You say, well, I've

heard people say, well, I believe in the Big Bang. God made a big bang, and that's the way it was. No. No, he tells us exactly how he created the earth in Genesis and Joe and Psalms. He tells us exactly how he did it, and it's important. He said, well, why is it important? Well, let me show you something before we get to that. Let me show you what Neil degrast Tyson, one of our top astrophysicists, and Mitchyukaku tell us, these are your

scientists. A crisis in cosmology. Usually in science, if we're off by a factor of two, are a factor of ten, we call that horrible. If we say something's wrong with a theory, we're off by a factor of ten. However, in cosmology, we're off by a factor of ten to the one hundred and twenty that is one with one hundred and twenty zeros out there. I think this is the largest mismass between theory and experiment in the history of science. Dark matter, I could ask what it is,

and my best answer is, we haven't a clue. We don't know what it is. We look out in the universe and eighty five percent of all the gravity that's out there has some mysterious unknown source. We add up all the stars, the galaxies, the planets, the commets, the black holes, the dark clouds, everything out there that we can see, touch, smell, or taste, and it doesn't add up to give us the gravity that we see operating in this universe. So really we should be calling it

the dark force, because we don't know if it's made of matter. It could be a profound misnomer, sending people off in thought directions that might not really be the right path. So dark matter is just simply what we call this thing about which we know nothing, responsible for eighty five percent of the gravity of the cosmos. We've known about dark matter since the nineteen thirties. Back then it was called missing mass. That's what it was called, because

yeah, there's got to be some mass. Where is it. We can't find it. It's got to be here somewhere, because we got the gravity. If you have the gravity, you got to have the mass. Mass and gravity go together. It's really dark gravity. Actually we shouldn't call it anything. We should call it fred something that has no meaning because we don't know what it is to call it, but it has been. It is

the longest standing unsolved problem in modern astrophysics. Now here's two of your top scientists in the world telling you that on cosmology they're off by ten with one hundred and twenty zeros beside it. Then they start telling you for our model to work, this all this gravity nonsense and spinning and flying things. They said, it's got to have a certain amount of gravity, but we don't know doesn't have that. What they're saying is that our whole system we've built

makes no sense to us. It doesn't work. And I will tell you why they call it missing mass. The missing mass is called the fermament. You're gonna see that in a second. That's what they miscalculate. But I want to share you with you this here, and we're gonna skip ahead here. I'm talking about this. This is what is called the Hebrew concept of the universe. This is what the Bible teaches, all right, and we'll

get back to this in just a second. But it shows you that this is what defirmament is the dome structure over the flat, non rotating earth. Hell is beneath, Heaven is above that. God's throne sits on that. This is what the Bible teaches. There's all the scriptures around that. We're gonna get to that in a second. So more like that. Not that in fact, that sphere you're looking at there is. It is a composite

image. But here's what the Bible says. The Bible describes a solid firmament dome covered the flat earth, set on pillars, on a foundation that God himself built. Nothing in the Bible describes the earth as a sphere. All right, And I'm gonna show you that, and I'm gonna prove that. But many Christians ask why does it matter, or just say the issue of the nature of creation doesn't matter. I'm gonna tell you why it matters, and you're gonna see this now before we get to that wants you to see.

Jesus said this. This is Matthew twenty four. This is Jesus talking. These are in your red letters here. Jesus said that immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be dark and the moon shall not give her light. The stars shall fall from heaven. He didn't say meteorites comments, he said the stars. It's the same word he used throughout the Bible for the stars. Now, either they're stars or they're not stars.

Now, the heliocentric Copernican model that you guys, some of you want to believe in, says that the stars out there a bigger, are massive, bigger than the earth. They are huge things that if one fell to the earth, it would swallow the earth. So Jesus did not teach a Copernican cosmology. He taught a Biblical cosmology, and that the stars are smaller, closer, and are going to fall to the earth. Now that's Jesus in

the Bible. And if you say that it's not the stars, it's some meteorites or comments or whatever, you're making up stuff because you are filtering that through a bias you've been brainwashed with from birth. All right, the Bible says the stars. Now, I was talking to a person who is a science teacher who's a strong Christian, and I said, I said, what about the stars falling to the Earth? And he goes to Revelation six and he says, well, don't you think that's just what John was seeing was

asteroids and meteorites falling it? What really stars? And I said, well, I said, you got a problem with that if you're going to say it's just asteroids and meteorites, because Jesus said it was stars. So did Jesus know what he was talking about or not. So here's the place that, seriously, the Bible does not agree with the cosmology of this world system, NASA and a everybody else. And what's amazing to me, let me just say this. What's amazing to me is that Christians have tried to mix

the world system cosmology into Christianity and they don't work. You can't do it. And this is proof of that right here. And I'm going to show you what the atheists do. Now, let's listen to this. This is Neil Degrass Tyson again, one of your top astrophysicists, astronomers. And here's what he says about this issue of the stars the Bible, saying the stars falling. People who make this case that that was the beginning, and that

there had to be something that provoked the beginning. Do you give them an a at least for trying to reconcile faith and reason. I don't think they're reconcilable. What do you mean, Well, well, so let me say that differently, All efforts that have been invested by brilliant people of the past

have failed at that exercise. It just fail. And so I don't The track record is so poor that going forward, I have essentially zero confidence, near zero confidence that there would be fruitful things to emerge from the effort to reconcile them. So, for example, if you knew nothing about science, and you read, say the Bible, the Old Testament, which in Genesis

is an account of nature. That's what that is. And I said to you, give me your description of the natural world based only on this, you would say the world was created in six days and that stars are just little points of light, much lesser than the sun than the fact they can fall out of the sky. Right, because that's what happens during during the Revelation, one of the signs that the Second Coming is that the stars will fall out of the sky and land on Earth. Since even right that means

you don't know what those things are. You have no concept of what the actual universe is. So everybody who tried to make proclamations about the physical universe based on Bible passages got the wrong answer. So what happened was when science discovers things and you want to stay religious or you want to continue to believe that the Bible is unerring, what you would do is you would say,

well, let me go back to the Bible and reinterpret it. Then you say things like, oh, they didn't really mean that literally, they meant that figuratively. So this whole sort of reinterpretation of the how figurative the poetic passages of the Bible are came after science showed that this is not how things

unfolded. And so the educative religious people are perfectly fine with that. It's the fundamentalists who want to say that the Bible is the literally literal truth of God that and want to see the Bible as a science text book who are knocking on the science doors of the schools, trying to put that content in the size shure. Enlightened religious people are not behaving that way. They say, yes, science is cool, We're good with that, and use the

Bible to get your spiritual enlightenment and your emotional fulfillment. I have known serious religious people, not fundamentalists, who were scared when Carl Sagan opened his series with the words the cosmos is all it is, or ever was, or ever will be. That's scared them because they interpret that to me, then if this is it, there's nothing else, no God, and no life

after for religious people. Many people say, well, God is within you or God there are ways that people have shaped this rather than God is an old, gray bearded man in the clouds. So if God is within you, what I'm sure Karl would say, in you, in your mind, in your mind, and we can measure their neurosynaptic Okay, I way, It'll move on from here. But you understand, see you say, why does it matter? Because people have believed this instead of believing what's God's word

said, and many people have fallen away, They've walked away. People have said, I'm not following God anymore. I'm not even Christian. I watched the thing this week where even many Bible scholars are departing because they accept science as God. It's like it's infallible instead of trusting God's word. Let me tell you, this world is full of lies, folks. I believe they've lied about everything. I believe they've lied about the sun, moon, stars,

the whole thing. I can tell you this much. I don't care how many people you brought in here. I'm going to stand with what Jesus said and the way he described it. And what's beautiful about is every now and then he gives us the ability to prove it. And I have Joe Hanvey here. We may call him a up, but Joe Handy has been doing some amazing experiments in photography. He has actually photographed the nebula with the stars in front of them, with a with a shadow behind the stars on

the nebula, showing you it's not what you've been told. Matter of fact, NASA artists do most of what you what you think is space and planets and all this stuff is NASA artistry. And I have them admitting it. Disney God work for Disney, now works for NASA. I'm gonna skip this atheist right here. We're gonna now I'm talking about how science can impact Here's a story of how science can impact young Christians. And boy do we have

young Christians falling away from God left and right. And one of the reasons is they go to school, they go to college, and they start getting taught this stuff that is not the way that the creation, is not the way God says, not the way the Bible says, and they fall away, and some it's even worse than that, they commit suicide. Jesse Kilgore, community College student, New York, took his own life when he was

just twenty two years old. He was raised at a devout evangelical Christian household was a firm believer of Christianity until he took a biology class in college, which led him to experiencing a crisis of faith. The biology professor also recommended Jesse to read The God Delusion, a book written by atheist Richard Dawkins, an atheist biologist. As a result reading his book and taking the biology class, he learned a lot of things which challenged and contradicted his own beliefs,

which caused him to abandon his faith and ultimately take his own life. Is sad, but it's true, and this is where we are. I could give a lot of examples of this. There's more studies, but it says right here in a research study on the impacts of science and the discontinuation of faith in practicing Christianity and young adults in their observations this is the Center for

Science and Culture. To this study, they noted that fifty nine to seventy percent of students growing up with the Christian background will likely lose their faith or abandon their religion by the time they reach college. An example of someone who contributes to the statistic is Kyle Simpson, who had a similar story to Jesse. Like Jesse, Kyle was raised a Christian, but science changed his mind and beliefs when he was in his twenties. Although he did not take his

own life like Jesse, Kyle decided to discontinue his faith in Christianity. So you're gonna tell me it doesn't matter now. I want to say this tonight. I want to say hey to our atheist friends. One of the reason I'm going down this road is because here we have od Morgan, who has about four hundred thousand followers, another guy, the friendly Atheist, who has about one hundred thousand. They're all talking about they're going to watch this tonight.

Well, I'm here to tell you right now. I'm gonna show you some fruit that when people have seen the evidence for a flat, geocentric, non rotating earth, that many atheists have seen the evidence and come to Jesus as their lord and savior. They've come to the faith. And I just want to say hey to them, and I appreciate them sharing on their channels that we were having this debate and now they're laughing it up. But I want to tell you what they don't realize. They're losing a lot of their

atheist friends over what we can show them they're coming to Jesus. Now let me share with you. Let's go this right here now. I want to say I put this up because I want everybody here and what I'm gonna read this, So many atheists have come to know God, they've come back to

the Bible, they've come to know Jesus as their Lord and savior. And they didn't do it because all of a sudden they just started believing the Bible out of the blue or somebody showed them something another lie, or another trick, or another you know, another fairy tale. So many atheists and scientists think that those of us who believe in a geocentric, stationary flat earth only came to this belief our religion or crack pop YouTube videos. But that is

not the case. It was seeing the evidence of real experiments, doing the math, making our own conclusions from our own observations about the nature of our world that brought most of us to this understanding of creation. For ninety nine percent of us, it was after seeing the evidences that we all realized what

the Bible taught, That the Bible taught these truths all along. And it is that journey of examining the evidences that show we do actually live on a geocentric, stationary flat earth that has brought many atheist agnostics to faith in the Bible and thus finding God Almighty, our Lord Jesus Christ as their creator and personal savior. Now I want to show you we're not afraid of science.

We actually go out with high zoom cameras and telescopes and lasers and actually do test in different climate, you know, in different weather, in different conditions to see what we can prove, and I'm going to show you some of that in a minute, but I want to here's a testimony that. This is Paul Logberg from Sweden. He was raised an atheists, became a mechanical engineer and again looking into some conspiracies and came across flat Earth and he laughed

at it, and then well you'll hear his story. It's only two minutes. I was an atheist thirty nine years, have gone through universities, schooling everything. Never had really an interest in God, never really was a God hater. But of course I had other issues like idols and stuff, and like all atheists have. In Sweden, basically all people are atheists. Eighty

percent atheists, fifteen percent Muslims nowadays and whatever five percent others. I was one of the atheists, of course, Like oh, in twenty eleven, I started messying, what is wrong with the world? Why is the world going absolutely crazy? Land that flat Earth? Around twenty and fifteen, yes, April twenty fifteen. Just laughed it off and you know, okay, this is completely crazy. But after a month I looked into it anyway, and I thought I got a good laugh, But no, I saw as

right, Okay, there's no way that it's a ball. And then I got interested in know what does the Bible actually say? Oh, if it was right about that already from the start, maybe it's right about the other parts. Also regarding the endings turned out, yes it was gave my life to Christ and twenty and sixteen, and yeah, I didn't look back. The world is just so filled with lies. It's actually quite sickening and disturbing. But we have one hope that's Jesus and his word, and I'm grateful

for it. I hope this helps someone take care. God bless bye bye, Now. I love this. Paul flew in twenty seventeen, all six foot seven of Meim flew all the way from Sweden because he wanted a pastor that believed the Bible to baptize him in water. Amen. But he's not the only one. This is soaring from Denmark. He actually heads up the Denotle Europe page now. But he was a complete atheist. I want you to hear his story. How you guys doing. My name is Sorin.

I'm from Denmark. I used to be an atheist up until twenty fifteen when I mockingly began researching flat Earth, and when I had researched that for about a year and a half, I came to the realization that we've been lied to, that the Earth was in fact a flat stationary plane and not a spinning water ball. That opened up the possibility of a creator, which in

turn shattered my atheism. And while I was researching that creator, I came across videos from Pastordine and the late Robskeper, and as I was watching them, they were talking about creation, Biblical creation, which matched perfectly the research I've been doing and thousands of others on the true shape and nature of creation. So my trust in the Bible was restored, where I before didn't have any faith. Why trust the Bible when you couldn't even trust page one?

Now I could trust page one. And as I continued listening to these guys their sermons, I began to understand sin, and I understood the Gospel and why Jesus had to come and die on the cross for us, which led me to true repentance and saving faith in Jesus Christ and his finished work on the Cross. And now I am a born again, spirit filled disciple of Jesus. Praise be to God. Were thankful that truth in truth sets people free. And I'm forever grateful to my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ God.

Bless y'all. Love from Denmark. Hallelujah. I'm sure Soren's watching right now. One more before we move on from this. This is Chelsea. She's actually here tonight, and God's done a great thing. It was a staunch atheist for about fifteen years, and it was a dark and despairing worldview that I wouldn't wish on anyone, but always loved me Wondering what's the point.

I found this little corner of hope and mystery and the possibility of life out there, and I could fill a library with all the Siden inspection that I read over the years, trying to fill the voide of atheism enter COVID, and like so many others, I ask myself, what else are they lying about? And it turns out the answer is everything. It turns out the world is run by a bunch of Satan loving liars who have a sooba bosil that we don't even know where we are. It turns out that we've

been living in their science fiction. You see, when you tell a story that begins with something exploding out of nothing at a aajillion years and the whole lot of chance. You don't need God for that story to make sense. In fact, you have to do some disingenuous gymnastics to write God into that story. But if you see that we're really living in something like a cosmic terrarium, you can't avoid the conclusion that we're in somebody's terrarium. Try to

write God out of that story, and dare you? So there's only a few short steps for me from the mind blowing realization of the flat earth to the God of the Bible. I thought, okay, there really isn't any evidence to support the helocentric glode model short of CGI. But why would they

construct a lie at that scale? And how the biblical worldview is the only worldview that can truly make sense of that level of deception, the level of deception that is multiple generations into believing that we're on a spinning water ball on the vacuum when everything in our experience screams the opposite. That little deception demands that we confront the existence of evil, because that's what their science fiction is and that's its purpose. People ask me, what does it matter, what

shakier it is, Well, the truth always matters. No lie is benign. But I'd ask them, would they construct such a massive lie for no reason? No way. This massive lie has an equally massive purpose from beginning to end. It's the very foundation of the scientific worldview that aims to make God irrelevant, and I'd bet the farm that it plays a critical role in

the great deception of the times I had in my experience. Had I not come to the truth of creation, I can't imagine what else would have not only shaken me from my atheism but also brought me to the truth of God's word. I'd heard the gospel I grew up in the Bible belt, but I could not reconcile that worldview with the one that I had already implicitly accepted,

which told me that the world is a meaningless accident. I had to first understand that the very foundation their supposedly scientific creation story is a lie before I could come to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. At the end of the day, I think the inherent cynicism of the heliocentric universe that

exploded from nothing is fundamentally incompatible with the Gospel of Jesus. Do you really think that our creator, who's so personal that he offered himself as a sacrifice that we may be redeemed, matches up with some behind the scenes intelligent designer and had a veiled hand behind a big bang. It created an ever explaining universe where there's no such thing as up or down. I don't. I

believe we are very carefully, intentionally and lovingly placed in a world. This is not just some random peace of a vast creation, but it's the very heart of creation itself. I believe that He is not in heaven we vaguely imagine as somewhere else, that his throne is just right above us. He has invested in us, that much the Bible makes clear. And so I pray that you reject the lie that what have you believe otherwise? Now?

Literally, in my book, like Clay under the Seal, I have one chapter dedicated to atheists come to Jesus, and it's testimony after testimony, and just for the sake of time, I'm not going to read them all here. But you see, I could do this. I could do this for two hours on atheists that have come to Jesus because of understanding and seeing the evidence for a flat, stationary, geocentric, non rotating flat earth, as our government documents want to say. I'm gonna speak through this. I want

to say this. These are reasons people that people believe that we live on a spinning ball or sphere orbiting the Sun in an ever expanding universe. These are really the main reasons the boat's disappearing from the bottom up when we say that doesn't happen pictures from space. We found out that that's a lot of fakery. Fish eye lends photography that creates a fake curve all the time, the alleged shadow of the Earth of the moon surface during the lunar eclipse.

That's easy to deal with folk cots pendulum. I mentioned that earlier Arrastnothenes, who probably didn't even exist, But his experiment works on a flat plane with a close sun exactly, so there's no sense in that using that as an argument. Circumnavigation, you can go around your neighborhood, or you can go around a sphere. You can do it either way and end up back in

the same place. And satellites and GPS I have a great deal about what those are from, not only declassified government documents, but just available documents and of course grandiose scientific explanations. Now I'm just going to show you this. Of course we've all seen this. If the boat went over a curve, there'd be no way to bring it back. But as you see, when you zoom in, the boat's there. Now, if it's over a curve, you can't see it. Nothing would enable you to see that boat.

But I don't care how powerful your zoom. But when you zoom in, it's the horizon's empty, and you zoom in and the boat's there. They're not disappearing over a curve. They're just getting out of our ability to see it. So that is another disco. Here's the video. Actually hear about perspective. There's a guy walking away and notice that this feat are disappearing. Then those up the seas and up to year twey. He's walking on to play football. Job. I want to disappearing from the ball, you know,

the wood grasses, all these buds. I always want to the boat go up for nobody. They still safety, and then I can't believe that they don't know me. I think the intention to your seat when you see something that that's how are you are? And of course here's a so you're telling me you can drag that ship back over the curve of that the little telescope there. Now, I don't have time to go through. I'm gonna just run through these very quickly. But we know that we've caught them photoshopping

clouds and stuff. They create these images of Earth. They're not real pictures. Even the guy who did the blue Marble says it's photoshop because it has to be. I mean, it's ridiculous. NASA artists do the pictures of the world. This is just this. Here's here's two pictures they tell us are from space of the Earth. I want y'all to look at North America. Which one is correct? Because the one on the one there, the big one, seems like North America's taking up the big section of the ball

there, much bigger than it really is. So we we get these kind of things and they want us to trust them, but it's just impossible. Here's where they faked the Uh. The big picture we had for years was Apollo seventeen and Apollo seventeen they said, you know, they're at the moon two hundred and forty thousand miles away, they can see the whole earth. But look, they only got a picture of that little circle there. They didn't get the whole lit side of the earth. So it proves that they

weren't high enough to get it. That they faked it. Finally, the element that seals their things. And this is the way they faked that. I'm not even gonna play it. You can go this. Go watch a funny thing happen on the way to the moon. Bart Sembrel. He shows the picture footage. How many you want to see it? Y'all want to see it real quick? All right, I'll back them and show you just so you know you can't trust them. Here we go, I'll play it.

Finally, the element that seals their things. Of all the footage of Apollo eleven requested from NASA over a five year period, one gem was discovered

just before the completion of this documentary, an old real received Bumpstink. It contains the raw footage of the crew of Apollo eleven, Michael Collins, Edwin Aldrin Junior, and Neil Armstrong staging part of their mission for nearly an hour in living color with exceptionally clear behind the scenes audio of conversations discussing the techniques used to achieve a disingenuous picture depicting the Earth at a distance in order to

falsely demonstrate their far journey from it and their ability to survive passing through the Van Allen radiation belts. It cannot be misconstrued that this staging was done for some other reason prior to the mission. For the real itself is slated and dated July eighteenth, nineteenth and twentieth, nineteen sixty nine, the very days

of the mission when they were said to be approp again. The illusion they are attempting to create is the Earth at a distance to demonstrate their far journey from it and their ability to survive passing through the Van Allen radiation belts.

Understand true, but only about twenty seconds of this raw footage was ever broadcast to the public, and these conversations discussing their deception were believed to be private until now here they discussed that these television transmissions were in fact not broadcast live as everyone believed. They were first screened and edited for playback later. All Right, Awaken Pity, Mary and Winn could play back weak to Carlie,

what were they? Thank you. Then here they discussed the fact that they have turned out the lights and have blocked out sunlight from entering the spacecraft through the other windows as to not cause any reflected light to fall onto the spacecraft's wall in the foreground. Okay, very good, wowy that though luck and away up number one went on and many reflected lights. The reason that this was done is so that the truth of the matter would not be revealed.

It is this. Though the federal government would have you believe that this is a view of Earth from a distance out of the spacecraft's window as it nears the Moon, it is not. What they have ingeniously done is placed the camera at the back of the spacecraft and centered the lens on a circular window in the foreground, outside of which it is completely filled with the Earth in

low orbit. The circumference of the window then appears to be the diameter of the Earth at a distance, with the darkened walls of the spacecraft appearing to be the blackness of space around it. That is why they wanted the interior dark and blocked out the sun from entering through the other windows. Here you can see the extruded window, probably two inches thick at the bottom. This

is because the earth shine is coming in at a downward angle. It also causes the Earth to appear to be an irregularly shaped for you are seeing the outside of the window at the bottom and the inside of the window at the top, which together formed two different sized halves of a circle. Subsequently, this take was never used as they perfected the shot. A crescent shaped piece of black material was in set slightly into the window to create the illusion of

the Earth's terminator line dividing night and day. It is uncannily convincing. During this segment intended to be edited and played back later for the worldwide television audience, dated July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, Neil Armstrong condemns himself as he states that he is one hundred and thirty thousand miles out or halfway to the Moon, as the NASSA flight log also states on this date, when he is in reality in low Earth orbit of a few hundred miles a mile out

here. During another segment also intended to air after review, Neil Armstrong falsely explains to the viewers how the shot is attained by putting the camera's lens to the windows glass, as it would have to be if they were acclaimed distance away from the earth. We only had one window that had a view of

the Earth, and it was filled up with the d error. If the window was completely filled up with a TV camera, as he stated, then an astronaut's arm would not be able to get between the camera and the window, as it obviously does here in this outtake America the company on the terminator or get you can also notice how the astronaut operating the camera reacted to the mistake by attempting to pan away from it. All right, I'm going to end that. You guys see, we can't This is why we can't trust

their picture. Finally, but I'm gonna go on. I want to go through all this. I could go through all the fakery. They were using fish eye lenses and all the way in the sixties. I need to get to the Bible stuff. I can give you this proof all day long right here. What things really are high altitude balloons, that's what satellites are. We're gonna go down through all of this stuff. I'm gonna go that's what they say is out there. You never see those satellites and debris out there

though in the ISS flyover feeds. But here we go. Let's get to this, y'all. See. I had a lot of slides. There's long distance photography of Chicago sixty miles. You shouldn't be able to see any of it, all right, I can't do it all. I'm getting to the Bible because I know we're out of time. All this stuff's on my website, folks. Then the Sevenfold Doctrine of Creation series. This is our own test. I can show you we saw spools sitting on the dock e eleven

miles away. That's my film right there, at eleven miles away, spools sitting on the dock. This Earth's not curved. I can tell you that right now. You can go with us and we can show you see. Let me zoom out at eleven miles there should be a seven story building bulge blocking my view of what's sitting on the dock in the Alabama State Docks there. Now, let's keep going. I've done shots. We've catched cars going across bridges at thirteen fourteen miles away. We know the height of them and

everything. So we've done our own experiments, and we've had PhDs and physics, we've had engineers, we've had army officers. Just let you see, I'm going through them quick here. I'm gonna get to the Bible. Stuff. Had two hundred and forty four slides. Y'all, scientists proved that Kansas is flatter than a pancake all the way across. All right, let's go here. We're to the Bible. Let me do this, all right, so we go back to the genesis. I'm gonna go through the Bible as

quickly as I can on this stuff. In the beginning, God created the heavens of the earth, and the earth was out form and void. Darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, let there be light. And there was light. And God saw the light that it was good. And God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light day in the darkness, he called night in the evening in the morning with the

first day. Now, I want you to notice something. He uses the term here first of all the waters. One thing we know about water, it always finds its level. We use levels to build buildings, and to keep them level. And the term face is a term, it's a geometry term, it's a math term. And to use the term face of the earth and face of the waters is used multiple times, many times in the Bible. And what does the face mean? An individual flat surface of a

solid object. But even if you want to argue that, I can tell you that you look at and you go out and you see like a pond or a lake, and you see this perfect reflection upon it, That perfect reflection, that mirror reflection that you're seeing cannot happen on a curve surface, only on a flat one. Let's keep going here. Here's the key though, Here's what most ministers and even the so called creation ministries get wrong is this issue is what is the firmament? What does the Bible teach about it?

God said, let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, that let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the ferment from the waters which were above the ferment. And God called the firmament heaven. I'm going to break this down as fast as I can for you. He talks about the open

firmament of heaven, our atmosphere with a bird's fly. The Bible teaches that the firmaments that he's talking about here, that he calls heaven is a solid crystalline structure that supports waters above it. That is called heaven. And then there is the third heaven where the throne of God is all right, that's your three heavens, not some outer space, not some expanse. In fact, the most disingenuous and the most dishonest definition of this word is to call

it some empty expanse. That is not how it's defined. That is not how Moses and Joshua and everyone believed what it was, even Josephus. I want to show you that we got to let the Bible interpret the Bible. When you talk about what is the firmament? Right, we know that God said here Genesis one, sixteen seven, about the firmat divided the waters from the waters. The flood happened here. And it says that there were three

things in six hundred year of Noah's life. In the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day where all the fountains of the Great Deep were broken up that's one. And the windows of Heaven were open. That's two. And God remembered Noah. And this was at the end of the flood, and all the cattle that was with him, and God made wind to pass over the earth, and the waters were assuaged for the fountains of the Great Deep, and the windows of Heaven were stopped, and

the rain. So you had the fountains of the Deep, the windows of Heaven which opened to let that water in that was from above, and then you also had rain. Anybody that says it was just rain is not being honest with the scriptures. As that fact, we had three sources of water at the flood. What Christians believe for many years was a thing called the

canopy theory. Doctor Carlball taught it, others taught it, where they said that the firmament was a vapor canopy that was around the Earth that condensed and then flooded the earth and thus doing away with the firmament. The problem with that is the Bible proves that wrong, that the firmament collapsed as a canopy, because thirteen hundred and fifty years after the flood, the Holy Spirit moved on David to say praise him, Ye heavens, and ye waters that be

above the heaven. Let them praise his name, or praise the name of the Lord. For he commanded and they were created. He hath established them forever and ever. He hath made a decree which shall not pass. So anybody that says that the firmament or was condensed vapor canopy that disappeared is not true. We have thirteen hundred and fifty years later, he's telling us the waters are still above the heavens. The Hebrew word for firmament is the Hebrew

word rokia. It has a root word. Almost all Hebrew words have a three letter root word, so you have Rokia is the word for firmament, and the root word is raka. All right, here's the definition of these words according to not only what the Hebrew meant, but also what they believed. And so we have to see how God uses it. But firmament rokia does not mean an empty expanse. Anybody tells you that the firmament or rokia means empty expanse, Like doctor Danny Faulkner of Answers in Genesis, he will

say it's an empty expanse that the firmament is out of space. He is not being true to the definition of the Hebrew word. Literally, it says it is an expansion of plates broad plates beaten out. So it's literally the word means taking something that's solid and beating it into a shape. Okay, that's the definition of the word. The verb raka acquires the sense of beating out precious metals, spreading that out in results to spread over to overlay.

All right, he goes on here, of course, this is the brown driver Briggs. It says extended surface solid expanse as beaten out, not an empty expanse, but expanding something that's solid over something. That's the picture of this word and the Hebrews, the ancient Israelites believed that it was solid, The firmament was a solid structure and called it the vault of heaven. So here's your definition. The vault of heaven or firmament regarded by the Hebrews as

solid and supporting the waters above. This is what all of the ancient Jews believed, because they believe the Bible. Man, they believed it about the

firmament. Here is another lexicon Jcinius Hebrew calty lexicon defines rocky like this, the firmament of heaven spread out like a hemisphere above the earth, like a splendid, pellucid, translucently clear, transparent, crystalline glassy, allowing the maximum passage of light as glass sapphire stone, to which the stars were supposed to be fixed, and over which the Hebrews believe that there was a heavenly ocean.

Now this is another lexicon, defining it as they believe it, as the Bible spells it out, not as new Copernican Christians want to believe it is to be. Now, let's keep going, says. Additionally, Hebrew scholars believe again when they translated, you know, in two hundred and fifty BC, they translated the Hebrew Old Testament into from Hebrew to Greek. That was called a Subtuagt version. Around two to fifty BC, when they translated

the word firmament, they used the word stereoma, all right. And when they use the word stereoma, that is known word. There's Greek lexifi lexicon defines stereoma that which has been made firm, the firmament, the arch of the sky, which in early times was thought to be solid, a fortified place. Do you hear that? So the word they translated, so you're gonna tell me Hebrew scholars translating the Bible from Hebrew and the Greek scholars translating

it to make it. They just decided, No, we should pick a thin vapor or some kind of gas. No, they said something that's firm, that's solid. Again, this is what the scriptures teach. Now let's keep going because there's more. Here's the uh. It says an strong extended surface expanse beat. Now just show you that it's it's multiple lexicons. Now

here's Job thirty seven eighteen. Now this is gonna show you. Now this may not be technically God speaking, but this is one of the wise men of the East that were Job's friends, and this is what they believe. This is showing you what he believed. He said to Joe hast thou with him spread out the sky which is strong and as a molten looking glass. So what this proves you can say, what I wasn't God talking, but this is what they believed. And that why did they believe it? Because

they believed the Bible. They believed what God had already revealed to them. But let's keep going here is it that way? Now? The Hebrew word for spread out there is raca. Now here's the definition of raca, and you need to We're gonna come back to this in a minute. The definition of raca means to pound the earth or as a sign of passion, to expand by hammering, by implication, to overlay with sheets of metal, to make braad, to spread abroad into place, to stamp. Oh, somebody

says, stamp or like a seal pressed down. This is what a stamp is. He says, this, that's what this word rock is. Now let's look at the ancient Josephus the historian. Now many believe that Josephus was also of a pre priestley line, that he was a priest and a pharisee. So he was well acquainted with what the Jews believed about creation. And this is what he said about the firmament. He said, and this is in book one entitled the Constitution of the World and the Deposition and Disposition of

the Elements. Josephus the first born in the first century, but crossed over into the second century. He said, after this, on the second day, he God placed the heaven over the whole world, separated it from other parts, and he determined that it should stand by itself. He's talking about the firmament here, that God placed it over the whole earth, and that it stands by itself. In fact, in architecture, an arch is the strongest structure that you can build. And it also must be strong because it

supports a lot of water. And he says here that he placed this firmament the crystalline nose. He says, crystal crystalline firmament round it and together in agreement and agreeable to the earth, and fitted it for the giving of moisture and rain and for the affording advantages of dews. On the fourth day, he adorned the heaven with the sun, Moon and the stars and appointed them

their courses. So this right here, Josephus is teaching a true biblical Hebrew cosmology because as God placed the firmament over the earth, he says, the Sun, Moon, and stars are in that firmament, and they all move in a circuit. So he's teaching the Sun moves, the Moon moves, the Earth moves. I mean the stars, sun and the moon, but not the Earth. You understand this is what the Jews taught and believed. All right, now, let's keep going. Does the Bible say more about

this? And basically, God made a terrarium. This is the longest lasting terrarium in the world. You put the right things in a terrarium, guess what things flourish, They live forever. It's a beautiful structure that God made. Now let's go to this. We need confirmation. We'll go to the firmaent is it crystal? What is it? So? Ezekiel's talking about it Ezekiel Chapter one, and he says, the likeness of the firmament upon their heads of the living creatures was as the color the king Jamej's a color.

But the definition of that word is the appearance of the terrible crystal stretched forth over their heads above, and there was a voice from the firmament that was over their heads. And when they stood, and they had let down their wings and above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone. And upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness and appearance of a man above it. So Ezekiel

in his vision he is seeing this firmament over their heads. And he said, the appearance of it is like a terrible crystal. And he says, and I see the throne of God sitting upon it, and I see this image of a man upon it. So the Bible says, God's throne sits upon this firmament that's solid, and it's like a sea of glass. I wonder where that's in the Bible. We keep on revelation for says after this,

I looked, and behold, a door was open in heaven. In the first voice which I heard was as it were a trumpet talking with me, and he said, come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit, and behold a throne set in heaven, and one set upon the throne. And he that sat upon the throne was the luca pite like jasper, and a

sardine stone. And there was a rainbow round about the throne, in the side of an emerald and the throne, and before the throne there was a sea of crystal, of the sea of glass like under crystal. This is what the Bible said, that before the throne is like a sea of glass that's like crystal, and God's throne is seated upon it. And it's interesting. He says, that there is an emerald rainbow or light emanating from that, and I wonder what that might be. But of course the scientists say

that's electro magnetarialus radiation from the sun. Right, you know what I believe it is the glory of God coming into the earth, shining through the crystalline dome that he sits upon. Revelation fifteen also refers to the sea of glass at the throne of God. He says, I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues, and for in them is filled up the wrath of God. And I saw, as it were, a sea of glass mingled with fire. Well, guess what.

One of the ways you make glass is melting sandy with fire, And he says, he says, the listen to this. He said, a sea of glass mingled with fire. And then that had gotten victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name. Stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God in their hands. Folks benny him the other day said heaven was a planet, another planet out there. That is the biggest bunch of nonsense

I ever heard in my life. It's right above us. God's throne sits upon it, and he looks at us like grasshoppers through his firma a dome. This was Amos ninety six. Of course, the heat you know, the King James. I love my King James Bible. But sometimes they did not translate words, picked the right words correctly. I know some people I think that they were perfect translators. They were not. This in the amplified you actually have to look up every word in the Hebrew in this verse to

even understand what he's talking about. But listen to this. This is amplified version of ninety six. It is he speaking of God who builds his upper chambers in the heavens and has established his vaulted dome, the firmament of heaven over the earth. He who calls the waters of the sea and pours them out on the face of the earth. The Lord is his name. So here's another scripture that gives you an idea of the ferment. Now here we

are. The Bible teaches a circular, flat earth. The North Pole Magnetic Center, the Antarctic of the ice walls. We've talked about that the Earth is stationary. Now this is what the Bible says with a molten dome over it. Now, let's keep going through the scriptures. Now anyway you go from there south. We could talk about this all day long. They say there's not an ice wall, but there it is. Antarctica is the ice wall boundary around the oceans. I've got a whole sermon. It's like two

hours long. I'm just Antarctica, the ends of the Earth. There it is Job twenty six ten. He's compassed the waters with bounds until night and day come to an end. He has inscribed a circular limit. Right, it's not on the face of the waters. I mean you just keep going. He has fixed a circle on the surface of the waters. And on and on. There's even declassified documents that says most of the coast of Antarctica are covered by great depths of snow and ice extends seaward beyond the shore line,

terminate with vertical clefts approaching two hundred feet in height. So we want to say the wall's not there, but it is. Now. Language is important. Language is important. A circle is not a ball, okay. And God's word makes this very clear here that a circle is not a ball. In Isaiah forty two, We're gonna read that in a minute, says it's he sits upon the circle of the earth. There are people Christians that are still saying that that means there's a sphere. It never says sphere.

The definition this word is kug and it means a circle, and it talks about in Proverbs he inscribed a circle upon the face of the deep, not a sphere. In another place in Isaiah twenty two eighteen, he uses the term that Kingstain translates ball. It is the word dr. So there's two different words in the Bible Hebrew, the original Hebrew for circling, ball, coug and dirt. And God never uses dr, which means a sphere to describe the earth, never never never, All right. Here it is you

look it up, a circle, a circuit, a compass. That's the strongest definitions circle. Proverbs eight here's the word dr. Just show you look it up, says ball, pile, something that has shaped to it like that, all right, two different words for circle and ball never use here.

It is This is Proverbs says, when he established the heavens, wisdom, I wisdom was there, when he drew a circle upon the face of the deep, when he made firm the skies above, when the fountains and springs of the deep became fixed and strong, when he set the sea its boundary so that the waters would not transgress the boundaries by his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth. So he's talking about God drew circle. Let me tell you. I built my own firepit back when

I turned fifty. I'm about to turn fifty six. I don't know if I can still do it. But you know what I did. I wanted a perfect circle because I wanted to build a four foot diameter firepit out of the We have stones in our property. So what I did was I took a state and drove it in the ground. I took a chain ran it down the state. Now I took another one out here two feet and I

inscribed me as circle. And then I started building my outer wall. I just didn't put a ferment on it because I wanted to cook stuff in Amen. Now this is again what God describes. Let's keep going. Now, let's go back to that when he says He's made the sky strong like a molten looking glass. Now let's go back. Now, let's go to look at Isaiah forty twenty one and twenty two. He says, have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the

beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth. It is he that setteth upon the circle coop, not dirt, circle, not ball of the earth. Now, the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers, that stretches out the heavens as a curtain and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in. So when he's talking about spreading out the heavens, he's talking about when he spread out the front over the earth. Notice he said like a tent, Like a tent, not a ball. Do y'all see the difference.

I ain't never been in a spherical tint in my life camping. And God said he made the earth like a tint, And here we are in a tent. Is the fur curved? No, God said this. You want to know what the earth looks like. It's like a tent, just like a tent. And the word for tints of course, here's what an old tint like Abraham and Sarah would have been, in flat ground spread out over them for a place to dwell in. The word for tint here in the Hebrew is ohel, and it means tint. Right. But I'm gonna

show you something. Let's go to This is Psalm nineteen. Now Psalm nineteen. I couldn't start out the beginning, but this talks about how the firmament shows the handiwork of the Lord. All right, So the context of this, he starts out talking about the firmament, and then he says this. He says, their line is gone out through all the earth, their words to the end of the world in them talking about in the world, our world he made for us. He has set a tabernacle for the sun.

Guess what the word tabernacle is here. It is the Hebrew word o hel, which means a tent, meaning that the sun is in the tent. Amen. Then he goes on to talk about the sun. He says, he set a tabernacle, a tent for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber and rejoices as a strong man to run a

race. His going forth is from one end to the heaven of the ferment to the other, and his circuit unto the ends of it, and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof the Bible word here for a circuit. Guess what it is, coog, It's a circle. Its circuit means to move in a circular path. So what we believe and what we see what the Bible teaches. What Joshua was saying, what was happening was the Sun was moving in its circular path. Now get this, this is this is

what'll blow your mind. Notice it says that nothing will will will escape the heat of our son. Nothing. Somebody say nothing. Guess what? Look up nothing in the Hebrew and it means nothing. So let me ask you a question. If if nothing that God made can escape escape the heat of our son, how are their galaxies millions and millions of light years away? The Bible says the Sun is in the tent, inside the firmament, closer to us, smaller, moving in a circular path, and that nothing that

God made for us escapes the heat of it. So you'll gotta deal with that one right there, big time. Here's another one there. It is an example of it. In the tent. Now is there evidence to show that the sun is inside the tent, inside the firmament, closer to us, smaller we have it every day. You're gonna start watching, some of you who are skeptics that don't believe this. You're gonna walk outside one day and you're gonna see this. You're gonna see it with the sun. You're

gonna see it with the moon. But you're gonna see the clouds behind the sun and the moon. You're gonna see this. I have photographed this. If the sun is ninety three million miles away, there's no way there should ever be a cloud behind it. Not ever. And notice that Job said there in thirty seven twenty one. Now men see not the bright light or the sun that was in the clouds which the wind passes away. He's trying to tell us where is the bright light he made, the great the great

light? Where is it in here with the clouds? And sometimes we catch the clouds behind the sun. Even photographers who aren't trying to catch it look at that, and then somebody want to say, oh, it's this the sun so bright, it's just an illusion. And then somebody puts a negative filter on it and proves it right there, clouds are in front and behind. I'll tell you something else about a sun ninety three million miles away. Let me tell you there's war. It doesn't make hot spots. If that

sun is ninety three million white. This is a high altitude balloon that reached one hundred and ten thousand feet. If that sun is ninety three million miles away, how is there a hot spot directly under it? There should be even light across those clouds. This could have over and over again. Look at the hot spot there above it. This is just a photographer who's not

even a flat earther. The hot spot above the clouds are there. If that sun's ninety three million miles away, the light race should be coming in evenly, and there's no way there should be hot You might get refraction. You might say, oh, the light rays are refracted, But wait a minute. Now that's a hot spot, meaning that's close to it. It's just like anybody that knows lighting in theater knows that you got to deal with

hot spots, meaning where the light's right on it right. I could do this all day long, but there's evidence, And this is why atheists come to Jesus because of this kind of evidence, the sun is not ninety three million miles away. It's just not like. These are pictures for people who are not flat earth biblical cosmology believers. I could do it all day long. Look at that. It happens with the moon too regularly. In fact, this redd it posted this is a person saying I went out and saw

the moon and it looks like there's clouds behind it. There's no how is that possible? And people were like, it's just an illusion. You're not really seeing what you think you're seeing. That's an excuse they have. You're not really seeing what you think you're seeing. Look at there clouds in front and behind the moon. I have photographed this myself. Now let's move on to this. The Bible is very clear about this. You know, you

want to believe we're on a spinning, flying water ball. Now, as you call yourself a Christian, you've got to deal with these verses right here and this verse. We're gonna start with a few of them here, but it's pretty clear. Zachariah one to eleven, and here's what it says. And the angel that was talking with Zachariah answered and said, and he said, and the Angel answered, of the And they answered, the Angel of the Lord among the myrtle trees says, we have walked to and fro through

the earth. These are these entities that have gotten permission. And they said, behold, all the Earth sitteth still and is at rest. Somebody say, all the earth sit us still? And is that rest? How is it wobbling, spinning, flying, and in danger of asteroids hitting it? Some people say, oh, that's just talking about the people of the Earth. No, he said, the Earth said, it's still and is at rest. And guess what. I look these words up in the Hebrew.

Guess what it means, sits still at rest, not moving. In fact, the word in the Hebrew, actually a shoub here means to sit down, especially as a judge, or sitting in ambushing quiet. All right, now, this is what this is. So you're if you're going to say, no, I believe the Earth is spinning and it even wobbles. Says it spins, and it's flying through an ever expanding universe, then you just got to throw this out right here. But is that the only place God

said it? No, it's not so. The Earth is not moving. Here we go first Chronicles sixteen thirty. For fear before him all the earth. The world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. Now now literally, I heard doctor Danny Falter of Answer in Genesis say, well, this just means like David when he said he wouldn't he wouldn't be moved. Now, we're not talking about a man and his emotion or his religious beliefs and his death. Were talking about the earth. He said, the

earth is stable. He said it, that it be not moved. The Psalm ninety three one, the Lord reigneth. He is clothed with majesty. The Lord is clothed with strength, wherewith he had girded himself. The world is established that it cannot be moved. So they say that cannot be moved. What does Satan come in? God said the world still, the rest said it cannot be moved, And Satan comes in with a theory, says

he's spinning, flying, wobbling, moving. Yet Einstein admitted that there's no experiment that can be done to prove that the Earth is moving, but then he said, I still believe it's moving, right, So Einstein knew you couldn't prove that the earth was moving down here Psalm one O. Four one through five, he says, blessed and affectionately, praise the Lord, oh my soul, O Lord, my God, you are very great. You

are clothed with splendor and majesty. You are the one who covers yourself with light as with a garment, who stretches out the heavens like a tent curtain. Here it is again multiple scriptures. The Bible says, let let by two or three witnesses left every word be established. So here it is again the world he stretched out like a tent to dwell in, who lays his beams in the upper chambers, in the waters above the firmament. That's actually

exactly what the amplified says. Who makes the clouds his chariot, who walks in the wings of the wind, who makes the winds his messenger, flames the fire his ministers. Those are angels. So those are literal things. He said. He established the earth on its foundations so that it will not be moved forever and ever. So see, I'm in the earth is still guy, and you got the earth the moving guy over here. It's pretty plain. Then it takes us to Job thirty eight. So if you think

we take verses out of context Job thirty eight, you can't. When you're talking about creation, God himself speaks to Job, and the context of that conversation is the nature of God's creation. God himself speaking to Job, he said, the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, who is this at Dartmouth Council? By words without knowledge? Gird up thy ones like a man, and I will demand of thee in answer, thou me, where were you? Where wast thou would I laid the foundations of the

earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding, who hath laid the measures there? If if thou knowest? Or who has stretched the line upon it? Whereupon the foundations thereof are fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone? So the context of this verse is clear. This passage is about creation, and God

says he has foundations to the Earth. Now, if you believe the spinning ball heliocentric nonsense, you you believe that we have an iron molten core that is that is hotter than the sun like thirteen thousand degrees, with liquid magma around it. And now they say there's even water around down in there somewhere. Does any of that sound like a foundation or stable or solid? No? No, In fact, they say that the here's where is that? They say, we have a lead nickel core. How many ever checked the

melting point of lead nickel. It's way lower than thirteen thousand degrees. But of course they'll say, well, it's because of pressure. It's always their little excuse to get out of something. But it's crazy. God said he laid foundations of the hear let's step reading. He literally said, to sink them down, just like you would. I used to be in construction. We used to have to dig deep foundations, and they were poured very specifically. So he talks about it. Now I need to speed on through here.

You see it right there to Saint Press. Oh, like a seal too. He talks about the foundations. Now here's first Samuel to two eight, and that says he raises up the poor out of the dust. He lifted up the beggar from the dunghill, set them among princes to make them inherit the throne of glory. For the pillars of the earth are the lords, and he has set the world upon them. Does that does the heliocentric Copernican model. Sound like he's setting something on pillars on a foundation, the

stable not moving, stealing at rest. I don't know, you know it. See, this is what happened to me. You talk about what happened in the beginning. I just started believing this. I didn't filter it anymore through the world's nonsense. Now we see the world is stealing at rest. And I mentioned a minute ago about the Michaelson Morley experiment. It says Michaelson Morley found the Earth wasn't moving by using the speed of two light beams against

one another. The null results was one of the greatest puzzles of physics at the end of the nineteenth century. It says. The possibility was that there would be the velocity would be zero and no friend shift would be expected. But this implies that the Earth is somehow a preferred object. So number one, they discovered that the Earth is really the center, the preferred object of the whole creation. And then he says that it was not what moving,

and of course it was. They did find one sixth movement of again, only one sixth of what they said it was supposed to be moving. The speed is supposed to be moving. They found one six. So that's the movement again of the ether current. And I can't get into that. But here we go. Let's go, let's get some of this this. Here's one of these documents. Now I'm want to read this is this is one of these documents. I dug up. This is Uh, let's see which

one of this is. Oh, there it is the general equations of Motion for a damage asymmetric aircraft. Now what's interesting. This is point one point two. This is one of my favorites because here in the introduction one, it says, in order to analyze the dynamics of damaged aircraft, the dynamic equations of motion must reflect the underlying the physics. Somebody say, must reflect

the underlying physics. So if they're going to study damaged aircraft and how things happen to it in the sky, it says that the dynamic equations of motion must properly reflect the underlying physics. In the next part, he says, this is just part two that was in part one. He says, in this paper, the rigid body equations of motion over a flat, non rotating Earth are developed. Now, if in point one you say that studying this

must reflect the true proper underlying physics. And the next you say, all of our equations of motion are based on a flat, non rotating earth. How else can you how else can you read that? And if there's not a flat, non rotating earth, why would it be in here? Why would this unicorn be here? I'm talking about the fairytale unicorns. Unicorns were real, by the way, but not the fairytale unicorn. Y'all see that. Let's read it again. In order to analyze the dynamics of damage aircraft,

the dynamic equations of motion must properly reflect the underlying physics. In this paper, the rigid body equations of motion over a flat, non rotating earth are developed. So here we have the Bible saying that the Earth does not move, it's stable, it's at rest. We have the Michaelson Morley experience proving the Earth does not move. That just blew up physics in the end of the early nineteenth century there and then I mean the late nineteenth century,

and then we have a government document about how damaged aircraft work. They admit that the proper underlying philic physics and equations are based on a non rotating flutter. That's three witnesses, y'all, don't hear me. That's the Bible, true scientists, and a technical manual about aircraft. Three witnesses. Now, I know some people love to pull this one out, so I'm gonna deal with this. Oh about the earth hanging on nothing? What is that talking

about? Right, Let's just go ahead and get this out of the way. Right. Here's what it is. King James Version says Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering. This is Joe twenty six, six and seven. He stretches out the north, over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. Now the Copernicans, the ones that want to have this space, oh cccc that's that space. That's we're hanging on nothing. No, no, no, my friend, you must dig a

little deeper because the Hebrew words bear out what this means. And again we have to take context. You can't take verse seven. You got to take versus. So he's talking about hell or shield or the underworld, the underground. What do we know is in hell? We know there's there's there's different degrees of hell. And I'm not talking about Dante's. I'm talking about Bible degrees, but we know that we have different words. And there's tarturous for

the deepest part of hell. And then we know that Satan is going to be bound when Jesus returns. Satan's going to be bound and placed in the somebody say bottomless pitch, which is in hell, which is the lowest part of hell. Okay, now what this here is saying, and let's go the amplified does it really well? But the Amplified Bible, and looking at the original Hebrew word here when it says he stretches out the north over the

empty place where he hangs the earth upon nothing. When it says the word for a pawn clarifies this question about the earth allegedly hanging upon nothing and place is the word tohu, Now tohu in the Hebrew Tohu Vabo, who was used in the creation that says the earth was without form and void and darkness

covered the deep. Well, if you look this word up, it means a desolation, destruction, chaos, and I can't get into all that right there, but he says that it's pronounced tohu, right is chaos, wilderness, waste, confusion, a place of vanity or emptiness. The Hebrew word here upon is all which can be translated above or over, and so in the amplified it says she Old. The place of the dead is naked before God, and abaddened. The place of destruction has no covering for his eyes.

It is he who spreads out the northern skies over the emptiness, and hangs the earth over nothing. See there is this is what we believe. Nobody knows how deep the earth is. God said, the heaven for height and the earth for depth. Nobody would know. It's unsearchable, unknowable. The deepest hole ever dugs about eight miles. The Russians didn't. We don't know anything beyond that. But at some point down there in hell there is

nothingness. There's a place of vanity and emptiness. There's a bottomless pit where saything's going to be changed for a thousand years, and God stretched it out. And if you guys saw my Mountain of God in the north in Paradise series, some of you. If you haven't seen that, you need to watch it. You understand that God's throne is right above the North Star. The North Pole is right there, and where we're taught. The Bible shows

us that it's really underneath. Underneath there is where paradise and hell starts right there. So it makes sense. This verse makes sense when you know the truth of the shape of the Earth and the nature of things. But taking this into context, it's not talking about hanging the earth in some empty space. It's talking about hanging the earth. Oh, the earth is just over this place of nothingness. So we deal with that. Now we get to

Joshua. I'm just gonna say, what do you say, sun stands still upon Gibeon and the moon in the valley of Ashalon, and the sun stood still in the moon's and the people avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is it not written in the Book of jay Shure? So the sun here's the Bible says. So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven. That means it was moving, not the earth. So Joshua here is teaching a completely

different cosmology than the world, and many of you have accepted. So the Sun stood still in the midst of heaven and hasted not to go down about a whole day. And here's what's interesting. He said, the sun was over Gibeon and the moon over the valley of Ashlon. Do you know what that means? The Sun in the moon were over specific places that were pretty close to each other. It's amazing, exactly east and west of each other. Look at here, there's gibbeon. There comes our moving sun, and

there's our moon down over here in the valley of Ashlon. He could see them both there was interesting. Is that happens to us every now. In their circuits they catch up with each other once in a while, and that's why you'll see the sun over here sometime in the sky and the moon right thereby. But Joshua knew exactly what areas of the Earth they were over. And that's what the Bible says. Can we keep going? I can prove here we go, let's get let's let's go on. I got more illustrations.

I'm going through them. The sun doesn't go down. We talked about that. It says to go or come now there's Gibbean there it is again. Goodness, I must have doubled up some slices. Here here we go. We're getting through. Of course, these crepuscular rays, these type of rays coming down shows the Sun is not far away. I can't get into that right now, All right, I've covered this. The Bible says the sun moves in a circuit to the ends of the earth. There's nothing hid

from the heat thereof there's your circuit means course or path. Here's the Hebrew word for circuit. There a revolution that is the sun's course circuit. Here's another thing that's impossible in their model. And I'm trying to go quick, y'all, but it's a salot the sun, he says, here, excuse he asked. He's the sun arises, And that word arises simply means it's not elevation. It means the rays begin to shoot forth when it comes close to us. And then he says, the sun goeth down again. That's

the word bow. That just means to come and go. It doesn't mean to go up and down. And he says that the sun, though hastes to his place where he arose, then he goes back to the same place. How is that possible in a heliocentric universe? How can the sun, they say, the sun's moving through this universe, just it ever expanding? How can it ever return to the place it was before? Doesn't do it either? The Bible's true, or your secular heliocentric Compernain cosmology is too.

They can't both be true. Here's an interesting document I found from one of Russia's top scientists that we stole from them during the Cold War. Aa or Law of his family was highly awarded decorated scientists in Russia, and we stole this from him. And this is in declassified now. And he's talking about lunar solar disturbances in motion of artificial Earth satellites and he says this here it is assumed that the Sun moves along a circle near the center of a planet

satellite system of the masses. He says, an analysis is made of the motion of the satellites could characterize any eccentric tricicity. He says, an inclination of its orbit relation to the plane of the Sun's motion. He says, the Sun's motion, he says. He says the Sun is moving into cera. This is a Russian scientist in a top secret document says, the Sun is moving, has motion, and it moves in a circle. Isn't that amazing that God said in psawm nineteen the Sun moves in a circle. Now

the shape of the earth. I know we're pastor you told me we could do it six hours, So I'm trying. I'm trying, but i have to get it all in all right, Now, this is the shape of the earth. Now, of course everybody knows my book is entitled like Clay under the Seal from this this verse in Job thirty eight fourteen. Now, I know he's going to try to attack that, So I'm gonna deal with this. I'm gonna just destroy any possible attack on it, because number one,

the context of Job thirty eight is creation. Many Bible scholars translators have translated that this is talking about the earth being or taking shape like clay into the seal. But I'm going to give you some other witnesses from scripture that this is exactly how God made the earth or shape the earth. But here's a few verses, we'll look at them. Here's the King James says it is turned. Talk about the earth is turned. It's not talking about spinning,

because he said it means changed. That Hebrew word means changed like you would change a potato into mashed potatoes, right, or like a person who was clean. The word is used when they got leprosy. It says their skin changed, okay, So it's not saying spinning. He says it's turned or changed as clay to the seal or the signet ring. And so clay was a glump of clay or seal, and they would press it down with a signet ring, all right, So that gives you a flat surface with

upturned edges. There the complete Jewish Bible. Anybody think the Jews know how to translate their own Hebrew scriptures. I would think the Hebrews would know that no Hebrew would get us the Hebrew correct, Okay. So here's the complete Jewish Bible says, then the earth is changed like clay under the seal. So they even got it in there. And then of course the Amplified Bible says the earth is changed like clay into which the seal is pressed. The

NIV says the earth is takes shape like clay under the seal. So there you have all these several different translations, and you have the definition of the words which I could go into. Now here's the verses that confirm this. Because the Bible says, in the mouth of two or three witnesses, let every word be established amen. So this idea of the earth taking shape like clay under a signet ring or seal being pressed down flat. This image is

also what we get in other verses about creation. But you have to look up the Hebrew words. Gonna give it to you here. So Isaiah forty two to five says this. Thus saith God, the Lord Yahweh Jehovah, that created the heavens and stretched them out Lotus. It says he that spread forth the earth and that which cometh out of it, He that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein. When he says he that spread it out, just remember that he spread forth the

earth. Another scripture Isaiah forty four to twenty four, Thus saith the Lord thy Redeemer, he that formed thee from the wound. I am the Lord that maketh all things that stretcheth forth the heavens alone, that spreadeth abroad the earth. Again he says that term. Now I know that it says by myself, I mus show you a mistake the King James makes. Here, he says, who stretches out the earth by himself? Do you know I can read a little Hebrew. And you know what, and I've got my

Hebrew scholar here. One of them are doctor John's trastras. Is it to get it right there? PhD from Fuller Theological Seminary. He'll tell you this too. This right here when it says he spreadeth abroad the earth in Isaiah forty four by myself is not in the original. It's at my em in Hebrew. At my em means upon or in relation to the watersim is the waters of creation. So he's saying that he spread the earth in relation to the waters, just like he says in Genesis one. Let's keep going,

he says. And then there's a Psalm one thirty six six. It says to him that stretches out the earth above the waters, for his mercy endures forever. So let's look at this term spreadeth out because three times here he says he spreads out the earth, meaning telling you this is how I did it. Like if a woman is rolling out some dough, she says, I spread out the dough, But how does she do it? Right? He's gonna tell you how he did it right. Here is the word.

It's that word again, raka. Where we get the word Rakia from but the word rock of the verb where he spread out the earth, this is what it means. Look at this brown driver brigs lexicon. Also the strongs beat. Somebody say stamp, spread out, spread it out, press down, y'all see it. Stamp. Stamp is just another term for guess what a seal. But he uses the term stamped pressed down so literally you could

read those verses. If you back up to those verses that he stamped forth the earth, that he pressed it down, this is the same picture. So three times you have this there. It is to beat, to stamp, to beat out, to spread out. Guess what you can buy these they called stamp kits. You see it, Go ahead and put it back up there. Stamp. What's the definition of stamp? Bring down one's foot upon heavily on the ground, or on something on the ground. He stamped

his foot in frustration, impress a pattern or mark wax. Stamp kit. There it is right there. That's where what the word stamp means. So we have those verses. Now I'm gonna end, well, hopefully we'll end on this. But here's if you want confirmation from the New Testament. I was getting prepared to do a message on the marriageupper of the Lamb. I wasn't even study in creation or cosmology, and I was reading this, and

I've read it many times. Out of the King James words. It says, when the thousand years were expired, this is Revelation twenty seven through nine. When the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and he shall go out to see the nations, which you're in the four quarters of the earth. God, and may God together them together to battle the number of whom it has the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and they compassed the camp

of the saints about in the Blood City. A fire came down from God from heaven and devoured them. So this is talking about the last rebellion after the one thousand year millennial rate. Now notice he's to use this term the breadth of the earth here. Now, Now it's what hit me. The Holy Spirit hit me. And I'm reading this and I'm like, he could have just said that they came out upon the earth. No need to put the breadth of the earth there, right, It's actually like an added word.

I'm like, why is that even there, and I'd never looked it up. In all my thirty six years of studying the Bible, I never looked it up. So I looked it up. Start looking up these Hebrew and Greek words. It gainst dangerous because the word breadth. Here is the word plateaus. Sound familiar, plateaus? What are plateaus? They are a flat land? All right? Well, the word the root. And then notice in in your Greek dictionary, you're gonna it's gonna lead you down the

root words. And it says the word here is plateaus, which means width or breadth, plateaus. We know what it means. He says, it's from though four one one six in your Greek dictionary. So let's go to four one one six, which is the well the root word platus platus. What is this platus mean in the strongs Greek dictionary to spread out flat? So literally the verse in Revelation twenty. So they went up upon the flat earth. That's the definition of the words in the original language. Here's where

it gets evening crazy. Notice it says that the platus has a root word. Platus says it comes from four one one one, right, So let's go to four one one one, and see what it says. Here's the word four one one. Here's the word in Greek. Listen to what it means here plaso to form, mold something from clay or wax. Literally the potter, fabricase or shape something from clay or wax. That's flat. That's that word, the breadth of the earth. This is why you have to

study the Bible deeper than many of us have over the year. We lose so much understanding when we don't go back to the original Hebrew and Greek. It even sometimes to the verb tenses of the Greek language. And there they're all three together. And I'm gonna just end with this part. I'm not going to show you, but there have been two astronauts that were interviewed. One the general highly decorated mischl Hermont Hermaneski, who recently died. He was

the only Polish cosmonaut for the Soviet Union. He was asking an interview right here you've been there is the Earth really a sphere hanging in outer space? And his answer was the Earth is flat, as some may expect, I didn't expect this question. I assure you it's flat. And there was another Russian cosmonaut who was awarded to be the Hero of the Soviet Union. He said, we haven't been to space. If someone claims that we have been, it's not true. It's not the truth. These are two astronauts.

I believe in the days ahead, these are whistleblowers. I believe in the days ahead, we're going to have more whistleblowers that come out and tell the truth. The folks. I have given you the witness of scripture, the witness of scientists, astronauts, But even those don't matter. The word of God is clear. God made the earth still, and it rests immovable, stable upon pillars, upon a foundation. And in God's creation there is an up and a down. Jesus ascended up. Where is that? Where is

up? For the poor Australians, Heaven is up, Hell is down. That is a simple concept. Doesn't work on a spinning water ball, all right. But God said he made the earth with a firmament over it, and it's a solid crystalline molten glass dome, and his throne sits upon it, and he says over and over the earth is shaped like clay under a seal. It's the breadth of the earth. The flat earth. It's motionless. This is what God describes in the scriptures, and this is why many

atheists have got saved when they've seen the evidence. So I rest my case. God, bless thank you, pastor thing, thank you. That's good. Give my hand. Not everybody wants to debate these issues, and so that's a big deal, right, that's a big deal, and so thank you so much for your thoroughness, Sor. We don't really have six hours apiece. We could talk about this for twenty hours a piece. Okay, you're not going to get the whole the whole ball of wax, right,

You're just not. You're not going to get all of it at one time. There's a lot there, and so I recognize the fact that we feel like at least that we're feeding you with a fire hose and just trying to give you so much information. And I know we had to skip through a lot. So once again, give them round of applause. Thank you, sir for your honesty. I appreciate that. And it's good to have a little our honesty back, and for even our snarkiness. You know, we

get a little get a little fired up about things. That's all right, that's part of it. And so I want to go into the Word of the Lord and give you the perspective from my vantage point theologically. Now, I'm not a real big high tech Redknick PowerPoint guy, and so some of the verses will come up just when I call the guys in the back that can throw them up. I'm just gonna I'm just a Bible god, right, So I'm gonna do some flipping. And this is a Bible debate.

So I suppose that at least a few of you have your Bible tonight, and so I don't have to take as long as he did, only because he has a lot of information that I don't have, right, a lot of information that I am not privy to, as it were, and so he had a lot to say, and so I just I want to kind of keep the perspective so we can kind of go back and forth if there's

time for that, Lord willing in a few moments. But let me just start right off the rim with the Word of the Lord and then just kind of go down through some very important aspects of what I believe the Bible teaches. So I'm eight in verse one, the Bible says Oh Lord, our Lord, how excellent is the name and all the earth, who has set thy glory above the heavens out of the mouth of babes and sucklings, hast

thou ordained strength? And the Bible says, because he's ordained strength, he says unto the people that he steals, he stops the avenger, he stops those that come against him. And then he makes a very interesting declaration in

Psalm chapter eight. He begins to talk about the fact that because God made everything the way that he did, because the world has been absolutely made by God, I read just today, as a matter of fact, this right here, he says, when I consider your heavens, the works of your fingers, the moon and stars, which thou hast ordained, he said, the finger work, the finger painting like a little kindergartener, the finger painting of God is indeed the heavens, the firmament that the moon, he says,

and the stars. It took nothing for God to make that. But then he asked this question, what is man that thou art even mindful of him? Or the son of man that thou visitest him? So here's the two different directions that we're going give in closed home. All of that. We'll talk about that, But listen, my idea is not just talking about the expanse, because firmament clearly means heaven. It's what the Bible says. I don't believe it means expands. It means heaven. It's what the Bible

says. But I so believe in the expensiveness of God that David looked up and he saw all the things that the Lord had created. He saw all the unbelievable things in creation and said, holy smokes, who am I? What is man that you are even mindful of me? Why would you even think about me? Amongst so many unbelievable things that you have created, the vastness, the expansiveness, the more and more you see. I don't believe that the universe expanding Genesis two one. God made it all at one time.

I believe our understanding of the universe is expanding. And those are two very different ideas, you understand, and so we have to recognize the fact that, yes, we believe that we are the cream Dela cream of God's creation. Okay, he didn't die for birds, he didn't die for rocks, he didn't die for planets. He didn't die for atmospheric conditions. Jesus died for the sins of the world. So yes, I understand that we are the center of creation. I understand that we are the darling apple of

God's eye. But even in the Bible, the man created by God said, Holy Smoke's creation is so much bigger than me, Why would you even think about me? So this, to be honest, is not about creation. We don't disagree on creation. I don't believe in a big bang theory. I don't believe in millions of years. I believe in six literal days of creation. I don't believe in any of that. I don't believe that we're from monkeys. I don't believe any of that stuff. Okay, all

of that's nonsense. We know that that is evil. We know that that is wrong. That is science falsely so called. That is Roman chapter one suppressing the truth. And the Man of God said that I get all of that. And so really, at the end of the day that there was a lot of talk about creation, but not really a lot of talk about yay or nay about flat Earth. We believe in creation just because I believe in a model that is different than yours, which I believe is our show

and a long it's biblical does not mean that I'm an evolutionist. I don't believe in evolution. I don't believe that that science is greater than the Bible. Because the Bible is not a science book, but it's scientifically accurate. You understand, it's not a math book, but it's mathematically accurate. And so to begin the debate with really what I would consider a straw man argument of it's about creation. Yeah, of course, it's about creation. We

don't disagree on creation. We don't even disagree on the way that God did creation. We know in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was void, and darkness was upon the face of the deed, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and God said, let there be light, and there was light. Nobody in this room, unless you're lost, would deny the reality of that biblical fact. And so we're really not fighting creation. We're fighting let me just use

the word cosmology, right, we're fighting the shape of the earth. Okay, So I'm gonna get to the Bible. But it's interesting because so many times people say, well, this is what all of the early believers believe. No it's not, it's what some ancient Hebrews believe. Absolutely it is, and they like to use that little picture from Logo Software. Logo Software is promoting you know, this particular idea. I called Logo Software and I

said, look, I gotta ask you guys a question. They sent me actually a statement back, an email statement that I have in my phone right now, and they say, we absolutely do not believe in what they say

anti science when it comes to the flat earth theory. We just have to put things in there based off of what people actually did believe at one time, until they begin to understand through observation, through experimentation, and through what you guys would say, what you can clearly see, experience and feel. And so it's not that some people did not have that cosmology. But please know this because here's where flout Earth for sometimes on YouTube want to change the

game a little bit. They tell you that it was the cosmology. No, no, it was a cosmology because a lot of people believe that the Earth was on the back of a turtle, or it was square, or it was triangle, or it was and some people still believe this to this

day, an infinite plane, over and over and over. Some people, and I'm not saying the people in here, so you ain't got a boom me, but some people have the fantastical notion that if you could somehow get to what they refer to as the edges of the earth, when you go through one side, like pac Man, you come back in the opposite side. Now we've gone into signs fiction realm. Okay, now we've gone far beyond the reality of the Bible. And then they're like, well, you

know, that's just how things operate in space. Well, you don't believe in space, so you don't get that argument. You understand, right, And so the Bible is extraordinarily clear. I believe. And so let me say this in Acts, chapter seventeen and verse twenty six. You know, if the Bible says we are all men made of one blood, for to dwell on all the face of the earth. The times are appointed, And here's what God says, And he hath given us the bounds of our habitation.

That's why I don't believe in aliens. We agree with that, right, I don't believe in et and little green men. I do believe that is going to be a last Day's deception, that they are going to say, oh, look what the aliens can ain't no aliens. You believe in that nonsense, you need quit smoking mouth. Okay, you don't believe. There's no such thing as that. But I want you to understand that at the end of the day, right here, according to the Bible, he

bound our habitation. My question is, why does he have to specifically tell us that our habitation to Earth has been bound? Because the other planets, yes I believe in them, that He created, are not habitable. They were just built because the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament,

the firmament, the heaven showeth his handyword, and the handy word. According to what the Bible just said in Psalm chapter number eight, that David was so mesmerized by the handiwork was the moon and the stars and all that God created. We have been bound to inhabit only the Earth, and so from that banished point that makes us the center of God's creation. But the Earth

itself is not the center of a orbital galaxy. It's just not. There's nowhere around that fact, I know I won't get nearly as much applause. And the reason our people aren't gonna applaud because they're just trying to figure out what I'm gonna say, because they never heard some of this up. So they're just trying to hold on for dear life and buckle in and hope I don't break a microphone tonight, right, and so they miss quiet as they won't do. You see, I don't have to have collaps I don't have

to have validation. I got sixty six books right here that will validate everything that's about to come out of my mouth. Eleven hundred and eighty nine chapters, frank seven hundred ninety one thousand, three hundred and twenty eight words. Okay, the Bible is going to tell us everything we need to know. Now, I'm about to pull something out here, and you go, I

have to start flipping around with me and help me out here. But I want to go further and prove that about we're the only one that's inhabited, but we're certainly not the only one. You know what Hebrews eleven says, it's a faith chapter. And Hebrews eleven and verse three says, by faith, we know that the world's plural. We're framed by the word of God. He does not say by faith we know that the world. He said, by faith, we know that the world's multiple. We're framed by the

word of God. And the reason that's important is because Acts seventeen, as we just said, because there are multiple planets, there is only one that is inhabited, because there is only one that Jesus was sent to to die for the sins of the people that inhabit that earth. So there was a time I thought, well, you know, maybe this is not a gospel issue, and I don't want to make it a gospel issue. But when you say things open ended, like if you're a Christian, then you're gonna

have to believe the way that we're that's that's dangerous. That's dangerous because you can believe flat, square, spherical and go to hell with it. Broke back. This ain't about the shape of the earth. Okay, this is not a salvation issue at all. And I'll go one step further and I'm gonna get to the word Praise God. I got time. I am excited about atheists that if listen, if you think I'm gonta sit there and me

be like, I'm not gonna applaud man. I'm happy when anybody gets born again, Paul said, if Christ be preaching contention, he's gonna be excited about it. Amen. So I'm excited when people get saved. But let me tell you something very interesting. You gotta be careful about that because what it sounds like is flat Earth saved me. No, the Gospel saved you. Flat Earth may have been a highway that got you there, right, and that's okay. Creation may be something that got you there, but it

didn't save you. Globe Earth didn't save you. She's a saved you. You didn't put down a bottle because of the shape of the earth. You put down a bottle because the shape of your heart got changed when Jesus invaded your space. Now I'm supposed to be debate, not preaching, but listen, I mean, just just just think about that from us. So I'm not against the people that have been saved. I'm glad for it. But but I want you to think about something. I wrote this down for later

rebuttal but we rolling listen. This is not, by the way, a loaded question. Okay, this is not a loaded question. This is important. I just want to ask Pat pastor Dean just from your vantage point. And here's why I'm asking you this. Okay, So this is not a trick question because I think we agree on this. Do you believe or do you teach like a secret rapture? Because I don't? Okay, Okay, great, so we agree on that. There was a time I was all,

you know, do you jumping Jack's? Okay? Right, I get it, and and listen, the rapture is not a salvation issue, okay. So there was a time that I really did you know? I preach rapture, rapture, rapture. So here's why I bring that up. Both he and myself do not teach a secret rapture. But neither one of us would discount the number of converts that had been reached because of things like left

behind movies and books and teaching about a secret rapture. So neither one of us teaching, but neither one of U would get a pert and say, well, you can't really be born again because you came around and you know, in a false theological system, no, they can get born again. So it's interesting that you can use a wrong model, but get right results because the results are based on the Gospel, not on the model. You

understands that makes sense. I hope it does. You know, Moses got water out of the rock both times, but one time was right and one time was wrong. Right, so understand that. I'm not against the fact that people get said. I'm glad people get back in church because of conspiracy theories that led them to flat Earth. I am great with that. I'm not against that. Okay, there are people in this room, for example, that are glaringly a thousand percent different from me. But if we weren't

necessarily having this conversation, I think would get along. I think me and flat earth Day could go to coffee and really kind of be friends. But if you put us on a YouTube channel, I'm telling you whoa the Earth would spind. I'm telling you it's just the facts. Okay, It's just the facts. And so I'm not trying to be a jerk for Jesus.

I'm just trying to tell you the Bible's pretty plain, and the only way a person really comes to faith is through Jesus, not through helio centrism, geocentrism and all these big fancy words that most people have no idea what they mean. Okay, I'm just a hell billy. I'd like to use simple King James English. All right, Now, I'm not going to guys. I want you to put up the passage if they can hear me in the back. If not, I'll turn to it. He said I was going

to attack his message in this book. I'm not gonna attack it. I'm just gonna correct it. All right. So Job thirty eight is where I want the guys to go if they can hear me back there. If not, I'll just read it. Job thirty eight. Need you to go there? This is important job chapter number thirty eight, verse twelve through fourteen. All right, Job thirty eight, twelve through fourteen. Now, I did read the book, not all of it, not verbatim, not word for

word. I did like chapter six because it had a lot to talk about the testimonials of people that are being saved, that have been saved. Now, let me read through this. Right. Here is the clay under the seal analogy that he uses. I don't attack that because I'm gonna be honest with you. I'm not real interested in the whole smashdown in the whole stamp down, in the whole upturn sides. And I'm not interested in it from this passage because this is not at all what that passage has anything to do

with. Okay, I just I want to show you now it's on the screens there. But sometimes I like to turn to certain places in the Bible. Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days? Now again he was correct. Okay, job is being rebuked by the Lord harshly. Things are happening in this context. God's asking him eighty four questions and are basically unanswerable. And so he says, look, have you commanded the morning since thy days? No, you haven't commanded the morning? Okay, because we don't get

to do that. But watch this, and caused the day spring to know his place? Well, what's the day spring? Well, the day springs is just a King James word for the sunrise. And we know later in the context that Jesus is called the day spring, right, and so understand he's just he's simply talking about an analogy of the sun. Right here, he says, plainly, is this not the day spring? Don't don't hey, guys, don't move them things back there because I don't know my Bible

until I go to the next one. Thank you, And so you caused the day spring the sunrise to know his place. Hey, it's obvious he's talking about the sunrise. Now watch this that it and I see that word it. Oh, you're gonna get quiet now that I brought the Bible out. What's the word? It referring to the subject, which is the day

spring, which is the sunrise? Y'all quit changing in passages back there, go back to verse number twelve again, hast thou command of the morning since the days and cause the day spring the noise place that it the day spring. The sunrise might take hold of the ends of the earth. We'll get to that passage that the wicked might be shaken out of it. Next verse he's still talking about the sunrise. He's saying that nothing, as the Man of God said, is going to escape the heat of the sun. The

Sun's going to rise. No wicked person can hide. Okay, it doesn't matter. Men love darkness rather than light. But the sun's gonna rise, It's gonna shine light. It's what the Bible says, that it might take hold of the ends of the earth. That the wicked might be shaken out of it. Watch this, It is turned, and he's correcting in his analogy to say that the word does not mean turned like this. He's not talking about orbiting so much change. It is changed as clay to the seal.

Now listen, we can use a thousand analogies about rings being pressed into wax. Here's exactly one thousand percent. Nowhere around it. Nowhere around it. He could even come back up and explain himself about it if you want suit right, But I got a long way to go, he says. Just as wax has no form whatsoever, okay, And we don't even talk in this terminology. This is old English. Just as wax has no form.

It's just wax. It's just hot wax, he says. Just like when a signet, signet ring roll, I don't care what it is, okay. Just like when it is dipped in the wax. What happens. The wax gets into the cracks of the signet, and the signet comes to life before your very eyes. When the sun rises, it takes the darkness of the face of an earth that has no contour and no shape. But as the sun rises, the darkness of the crevices and the cracks of the

earth began to show themselves. And when the sun rises, it sheds light on an earth that you could not see its contours and curvature or whatever you want to call it before that. And so just as the sun brings reality to what we could not see, so when a ring is dap dipped into the wax, all of a sudden, the wax feels up the crack. There's only one thing he is talking about, and it is the revelation that

sunlight brings when the sun rises in the morning. Now, wait a minute, is there anybody in the room that would say that's theological gymnastics, because it's not talking about the dayspring. Is it talking about the sunrise? Yes? Or no. It's only talking about the sunrise. And as the sun rises, it sheds light on things we could not see. Just as wax has no form until you dip something in it that has form, and it

come forms to it, and now you can clearly see it. And by the way, that happened in the very first chapter of the Bible, because when darkness was upon the face of the deed, God said, let there be light, and guess what the light shed abroad the contour of what God was creating. This verse is not about cosmology. I'm sorry. Now, it may be a cute verse to use and talk about the upside the upturned sides, and that's great, that's fine. I don't mind if you use

it. Here's my beef with it. You can believe the earth is any shape you want to, and we can have coffee, just not Starbucks. My dripe is not with people that believe flat earth. My gripe is with people that say the Bible teaches it. That's a totally different concept. Now, look, it ain't kill the ogretime. Chill out, chill out. I'm five verses in and get a lot way to go. I'm going so on purpose, because look, you cannot take that verse, I mean anything

other than what it means. It's a sunrise verse. That's it. It is a sun rise verse, that is it. Okay, Anyhow, let's get to some Bible and has if we've got already dealt with some When I talk about the Bible, let me say something. I'm not talking about the Book of Enoch. Stop that nonsense. Stop it. You see, you like to quote the book of Enoch when it fits. But when you get later in the Book of Enoch when it doesn't fit, you skip those parts.

Anybody's like the Book of Enu, Well, you know the Bible quotes the Book of Enoch. Yeah, and what part of the Bible quotes guess what the Apostle Paul also quoted lost historians and poets. It was historical framework. But if you're gonna say the Bible teaches a flat earth, then don't use a non canonized book that's not in the Bible to do it. Am I making sense? You don't get to say I believe the Bible the Book of Enoch says. I don't care what the Book of Enox says. The

Book of Enoch was not even written by Enoch. And don't say things like, well, you know David had it on his mind when he was writing. The Book of Enoch was at least a thousand years after David. Okay, And so when I say I'm going to talk about what the Bible says, I don't care what NASA says. Did you know there is not one thing I believe about the Earth that NASA taught me. I can't remember one

single time I saw one guy. He did a video. He's like, well, you know, I got a plastic globe here and on the bottom of it. You know why we can't trust it because it says not for educational purposes. Okay, right? Cool? You ever seen in the back of a condom box it says it don't prevent sexually transmitted diseases or pregnancy. It's a disclaimer, folks. There's nothing I believe about the globe that I learned from NASA, right, and I love these huge leaps of faith.

Well, he went from working from Disney to NASA, so it's all fake that is excused upon circular reasoning. That's nonsense. I don't care what NASA says. There's never been a time in my life that I've ever can have. I don't care what NASA says. You know, Samuel Robothum was a long time before NASA. What was his excuse? He was a snake old salesman that believe he had an elixir that if you drank it you would live Everlastingly. The guy had more atheism than he did Christianity, and his Christianity

was sketchy at best. He's like in his middle twenties, when he comes up with the zetetic astronomy. But I would not trust my twenty one year old son to pastor and outhouse, much less build my entire theological framework by some cat that couldn't get a real job. And so what he decides to do is go to a channel, go to a creek that seemed to be flat for like three or four miles, and because it seemed to be flat, which was later disproven by the way, which was seen to be flat

for just a few miles. Now he's built this entire theological framework that the church has bought into hook line and sinker. And they say we believe the Bible, we believe the Bible, and quote no Bible. I don't care what NASA says, I don't care what your fifth grade teacher said. Those people are not the authority in my life. Okay, Disney is definitely not the perverted authority in my life. There's things we can agree on, but

stop saying you believe the Bible and then discounting the Bible. So here's what happened. Right from the very get go. He said, you can't get up and say that the Bible is just metaphors. Well, you can if it's a metaphor. If it's intended to be metaphorical, it's intended to be a metaphorical You can only take the Bible literally where it's supposed to be taken literally. And many times figurative analogy leads to literal understanding, right of a

metaphorical you know translation. There are many metaphors in the Bible. I'm just gonna very quickly explain that to you. Right, think about this one. In John chapter three, Jesus came to a guy named Nicodemus and said, ye must be born again. Well, Nicodemus had the same mindset as a lot of people in this tent, because he was such a literalist. He said, oh, does that mean I got to re enter my mother's womb and be born? And Jesus said, no, that which is born of

flesh is flesh. But that was just born of spirit, a spirit marvel, not that I said under the ye must be born again. That's the biggest metaphor in the whole Bible. And nobody in this room would have trouble with that. Everybody sees that it was a metaphorical reference that led to a literal salvation. In this man's life. But it was a metaphor. Ye must be born again. No, you don't crawl back into mama's wound. Thank God. Right, it's a metaphor. So you can't say things like,

well, don't say the Bible's metaphor. Well, you can because in Psalm twenty three and verse five, the Bible says God prepares a table in the wilderness. Do you think that's literal? You sitting out in the wilderness. Now, look y'all gonna watch me eat arrows flying everywhere. It's not literal, it's figurative. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor that God's gonna provide for you and protect you no matter what situation you face. And by

the way, no matter what your cosmology is, that's true. Nam Chapter one, verse three. The clouds are the dust of his feet. The clouds are the dust of his feet. Sometimes I play with that one. I'll be sitting on an airplane. I'll look at somebody and say, hey, we just missed him. Then be like what, look at the Bible says name one three the clouds of the dust of his feet. Okay, look, it doesn't literally mean that God's walking around right now in the sky,

in these clouds and those clouds, in those clouds. It's a metaphor referring to the sovereignty of God that everywhere you look there's God's finger prints and footprints. It's a metaphor. I love this one. Acts seventeen verse six. Now, by the way, both parties are gonna like this one. Pay attention, Buck Lynch, Act seventeen six. You know what the Bible

says. The Bible says that when these people were arrested, the religious crazy political dignitaries looked at these disciples and said, these men have turned the world upside down. Now, if that's literal, y'all's model is screwed. Woo. That's not literal. It's figurative. It's not even a globe situation. He's not talking about turning the world upside down. He's talking about the power of the Gospel through them made so much change around the world that it looked

like they were wrecking everything. Does that makes sense? Now? I know when you go to Brother Dean Church, y'all get preaching right, you get the word of the Lord. But I can tell and our people they get the word of the Lord. I can tell some of y'all done showed up. And y'all don't have a pastor that preaches the Bible because you can't figure out right now what you're supposed to believe, because what you want to believe is what YouTube told you. What you failed or believe is what God clearly

tells you in the Bible. And that's danger, and that's where you are going to have to draw the line right. And so there's metaphors and turn the world upside down. That's a metaphor. Oh you'll love this metaphor Isaiah sixty six and verse number one. Heaven is his throne, Earth is his footstool. Okay. First of all, God is a spirit. They that

worship prem must Worstupremian spirit. In truth, you start talking about God having feet, that's not even Christian theology anymore, okay, And so understand listen to me. It says simply that the footstool was beneath the sovereign rule and the authority of God. And people are like and I don't say everybody in this room, but there are people all of the Internet that say, well, you know, it's a footstool. Footstool has pillars, a footstool is

slat. Well, that's cuted until you get to Hebrews chapter one, where God the Father said to God the Son, because Jesus is God, deny that theology. Now, I don't care what your cosmology is. Okay, God the Father said to God the Son, I'm gonna make your enemies your footstool. You see, both of them are figurative, because you can't use footstool Isaiah sixty six and verse one to proclaim flat earth unless you're gonna believe

that enemies are flat as well. It is figurative language, ladies and gentlemen, there, it's a metaphor. It's an analogy that God is very clearly speaking. What about this, Matthew chapter five. You are the light of the world. Are you the light of the world? Yes, figuratively. Here's why Jesus is the light of the world. We're the reflectors of the glory and the light of God Matthew chapter five. But you don't walk around

with batteries in your back. It's a metaphor for the glowing of your testimony because of the gospel, which, by the way, only half the crowd will like this and less than half the crowd will understand this. That's also a beautiful picture. You see, Jesus is the light. We're not the light. We reflect and radiate that light, just like the moon reflect and radiates the light of the sun, because the light does not come from the moon itself. You do understand that, right half of you understand that.

It's metaphorical terminology. Metaphorical terminology. Metaphorical terminology. I got the mic. You don't. Now here's one Remember when I said, when I did my little what they call a die tribe, I got one verse. Everybody said, yeah, he gonna go to Isaiah. Circle of the Earth. I could care less circle ball because here's the argument. Well, a circle is not a ball, that's true. But a ball is a circle. And guess what ball in early Isaiah. He's exactly right, ball in circle two

different words. But you know what the word ball means in the Hebrew. Circle. But I don't care about the circle of the earth. The comp Okay, listen, that's not even than we take. You know, there's one verse in the Bible that disproves flat earth immediately without hesitation. We had to drop the mic and go home. Yet ready for you wanna wait for it. Okay, this is what the Bible says. It's two verses one concept Psalm one O three. Some of you know where I'm going. You

was hoping. I didn't know this one was in the Bible, verse eleven and twelve. We're gonna take you one verse a time. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy towards them that fear him. Now do you believe that, yes or no? I do. As the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy. But if you believe there's a limit to the heaven, you've limited God's mercy. And Roman says that you know, any height or depth can take

you away from the love of God. So if you're gonna tell me there's a structure that's blocking the rest of the heaven, you have just minimized the mercy of God. For as the heaven in the same way, in the same man, as the heaven is high above the earth, not just a few thousand, you know, miles, and the throne of God sits on top of No, no, no, I'm explaining all that to you from the Bible. Also, by by the way I have my right to a

theological opinion. You understand that I set there quietly clapped and amen, okay the whole time, and enjoyed it and learn some stuff, because every man can be my teacher. If you can't learn, if you know everything, you need deliverance. So as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. So then let me just say it this way. My model, the mercy of God's endless. In your model, there's a cap on it. Now, don't shrug your shoulders

and be like any what the Bible says. It's clinging with the Bibles. I don't care what version you use. That's what it says. But that's just the first part. Because you can believe, by the way, in a dome, but not a flat earth. That's okay, I don't you. Believing in a dome does not offend me. You see, you believe in half a globe. You halfway there. We just believe God completed the whole thing. You believe in a snow globe. We believe in the full

globe. Okay. But nonetheless, some of you, like man, I've been believing flatter of loll inch time. I never heard my say it like that. Well, that's all right, it's the facts, because here is right here, the stop to the whole argument, as far shout far, as far as the east is from the west. Now, wait a minute, why is that even the theological concept? Because when you're going east, you're always going east. When you're going west, you're always going west.

But when you go north, you eventually go south, and when you go south, you eventually go north. Now I understand their explanation that in the middle and then go south, south, south south. I just saw it on his model. So not only have you limited the mercy of God,

you have limited the redemptive power of God. Because in a flat earth model, east and west is not the same as in what the Bible teaches a spherical earth matyr, where east and west never meets, never intersect, never show up, and never say how they n shake hands as far as the east is from the west. So God had taken my sin and remove them far from me. They will never ever, ever, ever ever meet again unless you're a flat earther. Is that no? Why is that not the

facts? Oh see, I love that. I love when they say that going in circles is circumnavigation. No, no, no, Going in circles is what people in a looney bin do. There is no proper East and West unless you make it up on a flat earth model. Because if you believe in infinite playing in all directions, some of you do, some of you don't care, then guess what. North and South keep going, going, going, going, going going. East and West keep going, going,

going, going going. And if you're going to say that, well, you know, East and West just work on the inside, round and round and round and round, you know as well as I do. That had no intention in the text whatsoever. If that's the only verse we had on what we need, I see them little balls float around. Look, there is no other way to dissect and exegeat properly that verse other than what we know to be true, because it's what the Bible said, not what

NASA said. See if you'll get mad all they want to. But I'll preach to a full tenth tomorrow, whether you show back up or not. I'm saying that I ain't here for money. I'm so sick of these people. Well, you ain't nothing but a shield. I've heard people call Dean a shield. Well, he's just paid opposition. What at least he believes it. At least he's passionate enough to proclaim it and get up here and fight it out and do get out in front of thousands of people all over

the world with me, y'all just a bunch of shields. Now, let me tell you something. There ain't nobody in this room. Nobody in this room. I promise you this today. Nobody in this room fought the Masonic Lodge more than I have. That devilish, wicked, lowdown, sorry, good for nothing, sex trafficing, satanic cult of an organization. It's wicked as hell. But somehow or another, because I believe in a spherical earth, I'm siding with the Masons. You know. The authority that tells us

who the Masons were in the historical records. Are people on YouTube that have no authority to tell me that. Not everybody's in the Masonic Lodge. Folks, some of you know I done called out some false prophets in this church. I could have made millions with them. Cats. I ain't for sale no matter what shape the earth is, So stop all this, well, y'all just working for the free. We ain't working for the Freemasons. Freemasons can eat my dirty socks, A bunch of devils, bunch of demons.

We call it out every Sunday night. There's a spirit that goes along with the Masonic Lodge. And to say that a Christian that loves God been preaching thirty one years, well he must be just yoked up with NASA and the Masonic Lodge because he believes in a spherical earth. That's nonsense. Stop all that that's apples and oranges. I mean, that's ridiculous. And I want to tell you one of the reasons I called it out because we got people

in our own church inviscerating each other over this ridiculousness. We got marriages on the rocks because of flat earth. And I'm not saying that people ain't stupid that believe the other way. I mean, there's crazy people on both sides. I get it. Both side. We all crazy. But I've never, ever, ever, and I have messed with a lot of doctrine, I've never dealt with anything that is more divisive in the local church than flat earth theology. Never. Never. I mean, we got people that came

to this church two or three years, good people here tonight. Moment I called it out, I was lost. I'm not even saved. I'm not even reginerate you working for the Mason? What you believe? Everything until that one little deal. It's that big a deal to you. You know why it's that bigger deal. I'm gonna tell you, Oh, it's that big a deal because it has become a graving image to you. It's all you think about. I didn't even start studying until I said I'm gonna do the

debate. And I'm sick of thinking about it already. Now. Look, if you can handle it in moderation, handle it in moderation. But it is becoming idol of some people. It's all they talk about. And they're like, well, you know who Jesus came to bring a sword and bring division, not about the shape of the earth. So anyhow, y'all, and wheezy, you weigh out of Salm one O three, verse eleven twelve all you want to, But then I'm gonna do something real quick, come

of, y'all. I got it all marked up. How man, y'all seen this right here? Flat Earthdoctrine dot com. Let me ask it again, how many of you have seen the verses the two hundred and forty plus versus flat Earth dot com. You've seen this at least floating around as a meme on the internet. Dear God, I hope you've actually read some of these verses, for you should to this debate. And all right, anybody ever seen this? It's usually black? Okay, a handful of you.

Well, that's telling right there. I want to get this cat's name right. He might be here tonight. I don't know. Nathan Roberts, author of the Doctrine of the Shape of the Earth A comprehensive Biblical perspective. If what I'm i about to read to you is comprehensive, somebody needs changed that man, Stiper, he's a baby in the Lord. Yeah, I did say, a baby in the Lord. Comprehensive. Doc. Have you seen

some of the stuff on this list? Oh no, no, no, no, because you just share it on Facebook without reading the two hundred and forty some odd verses that are supposedly on here. Here we go, let's just deal with a few of them. Let me get some low hanging fruit here real quick, by the way, two hundred and forty plus flat Earth doctrines, and let me say that if you've not read every single one one of the verses that are on this list, I know more about your stuff

than you do. That's all there is to that, because I'm sick of y'all, said nurse, two hundred and forty verses. What how come you don't read them? You just assume they're there? So you know, one of the verses on this list is Psalm forty six y ten, Be still and know that I'm God. Well, you know the earth is still, so you know, so I'm forty six teen. Be still and know that

I'm God. Somebody didn't even know that was on the list. He could have put Worship Bozo the Clown on the list and put a fake reference. And some of you have been like two hundred and forty one verses. Now Preacher getting even read it. Then you'll likes to say things like this, Well, you know Matthew's Bible from fifteen thirty seven says flat earth. Okay, First of all, I don't read Matthew's Bible from fifteen thirty seven because the s's were f's and the v's were this. You couldn't read it if

you had it in your lap. Yeah, it says flat earth. It's sort does second seven to eleven eleven? I believe it is. You know what it says talking about a military installment, an army in a certain area fighting another army, and it says, and they went up and pitched their tents upon the flat earth, which literally means open field. And everybody's like, oh, oh, give me that thirty thousand dollars. Flat Earth's in

the Bible. Yeah, yeah, sure is. You think one army in one sax city against one other military institution installment is spreading their tents out over the whole flat earth. Now you're reading a comic book if you believe that. It's just a simple phrase that was mentioned in fifteen thirty seven, and every other time it's been translating. And I don't even mind the translation. Some people like to play translation games. I'm gonna read twenty translations until it

says what I want it to right now. This ain't a bad marriage. This is the Bible. Some of y'all argue, until you get that person in that text to say what you wanted to say. That's not exit Jesus, that's ice of Jesus. That's reading into the Bible. What you wish was there, because what is clearly there doesn't need to be brought out because it'll make you uncomfortable and you'll have to change your foolishness about anything about anything. And so he puts that in there. It's not even a reference.

He even puts a reference in Revelation twenty one to fifteen through seventeen. It says this new Jerusalem, the huge cube. We ain't talking about cubes, and we aint talking about New Jerusalem. We talk about Earth. You know that was on there has nothing to do with flat Earth, as most of these verses do not, by the way. But let me give you a couple of good ones that I think is quite interesting in Second Kings and they can put it up there, but I'm not gonna read to all these.

I gotta give you a bunch of just the highlights. Cliff Throats, you can read this. It's on every one of your Facebook pages at some point in the comment section, every one of you. I get in like fifteen times a day. So don't tell me it's not there, Okay, It's everywhere, he says, uh. And I love how it gives his own descriptions of what the passage is supposed to say, but is it second of King's twenty eight through eleven. You remember has Akaya the Bible talks about the

sun dial going backwards. He says, the sun moves backwards. Two things about that number. One that has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. Secondarily, here's what's interesting. Did you know how sundial only works because of a curved earth? What home of goodness? He's breaking out science. He's one of them scientists and believers. Sundal cannot work on a flat earth. Y'all can stay till two o'clock in the morning, argue all night.

We'll turn the live stream off. I'll sleep good. I promise you can argue in fuss, cause you can get mad as you want to. But sun dials have nothing to do with the shape of the Earth, but everything to do with the fact that, guess what, the sundal don't even work forward or backward without proper shadowing of curved earth. But nonetheless, we'll keep going. Eat if you don't like that description, it still has nothing to do with the flatter of model. Oh I love this one. Everyone

sees Jesus Revelation one seven. Right, Well, you know In Revelation one seven, the Bible says, when Jesus comes again, the who every eye shall see him. Okay, even if the world was flat, you wouldn't be doing that. Show me somebody parachuting fifteen miles from here right now. Okay, it doesn't work that way. You say, Well, he's God. He sure is, And so he explains himself. Well. Revelation one

seven is a prophetic fulfilling of Matthew chapter twenty four. When he comes back and the Jews see him, they look upon him whom they have peers, and the nation shall be born in a day. But just in case that wasn't don good enough for you, it don't do you fancy? I got one better for you, because everybody's like, well, you know, everybody's gonna see Jesus. And so the only way everybody at one time can see Jesus is if the earth is flat. Well, that dog only hunts until

you get to Revelation chapter eleven. Revelation chapter eleven talks about the two witnesses, and when the Antichrist kills them, the Bible says, and their dead bodies shall lie in the street in the gate of the city, which spiritually

is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people of the kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies for three days and a half, and shall not suffer the dead bodies to be put in the great question, how are nations and kingdoms and tongue? How are people around the world gonna see two dead people in the middle of the street in Jerusalem, Because it's not about cosmology, it's about technology.

And everybody says, well, you know, everybody's going to see Jesus when he comes back. You know why, because if indeed that verse is literally referring to everybody seeing him, everybody's got a device in their hands. Everybody's gonna see him. Has nothing to do with shape of the earth, nothing to do with the shape of the earth. But that verse is there. Then I love these high altitude perspectives, right, that's what he calls them.

He puts three of them in here, Daniel four eleven and Daniel four twenty, which are both, by the way, the same story, the same passage. Look, we can stay here and go verse for verse line belone all night long. But it's right there you look the list Daniel four eleven, Daniel four twenty. It talks about a tree, right, the tree grew and was strong, and the height thereof reached un to heaven,

and the sight thereof to the end of all the earth. And then in verse twenty talks about this tree that's so tall, and so he puts it here as a flat earth doctrine that only on a flat earth model can you see a tree that grows up that high. But what they do not tell you is right in the context of the verse, it says, and the tree that thou sawest o nebuchon Ezer is the o king, and the nations shall bow down before you. And what's interesting is that in this context he

wasn't just talking about Neba can Nezar being the tree. It's plain in the King James, he plainly said two times in the story that it was a dream. You know, I've flown in my dreams, but I ain't ever flown in real life. A dreams a dream, And you're gonna base a theological position off an evil king's dream that already had the interpretation from Daniel himself.

You are the tree. So we could deal with that now everybody loves Matthew chapter four, the Bible says that the devil and by still with me says that the devil took Jesus up into an exceeding high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them, and said, if you'll fall down and worship me, I'll give you all the kingdoms. I'll give you all the authority. I'll give you all this pilate Matthew four

eight. Look it up. Now they say the only way that can happen is on a flat earth model, that he's taken to a high elevation and he is able to see all the kingdoms of the world. A couple of things. Number one, please show me where that mountain is. Okay, we're talking about Jesus, not Santa Claus killdown Skippie, Okay, but I

don't care where it is. I don't care if it's Midwest Pole. Here's what the Bible tells us in Luke and here's what the flat earthers hate in Luke four, when it says that he was taken up by Satan to an exceeding high mountain and showed all the kingdoms of the world. It adds this little phrase and says, showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment we're talking about God and Satan. This was an obvious in context vision

that took place on top of a mountain in a moment. I mean, look, you can go to Mount Everest and you can't even see the next ocean. At it's twenty nine thousand and thirty two feet high. You can't even see the next ocean. Okay, Oh, you're exactly right. And guess what I'm about to help you with that, because you're not either. Because the whole purpose was for Jesus. Why did the devil take him up to an exceeding high mountain because the devil had to teach Jesus the finger two

about cosmology. No, because in the Old Testament, when Israel failed in demon worship, it was always in the high places. It was always in the high mountain. And Jesus was the success and fulfillment of the failure of the nation of Israel. And the devil took him up to a high place and said, if you will fall down and worship me, I'll give you all the kingdoms and Jesus basically said, I don't need them because I'm gonna take them from you one day anyhow, whether you give them to me or

not. This ain't a high altitude perspective. This is a fulfillment of Jesus. And since I ain't Jesus, I don't get to impose cosmology on it. So it works both ways. From the peanut gallery, anybody, all right, all right, now listen, very first, one Earth created before the sun. Okay, what's that gonna do with flat Earth? Nothing? Understand that universe is complete, not ever expanding. I believe that our understanding

of it is expanding, but the universe is not expanding. God made it all bamn, just like that in a moment's notice, and spoke the word and it happened, and it happens. So that has nothing to do with flat Earth. Nothing, absolutely nothing to do with flat Earth. And then he says this, skies have a face, and then he puts this in parentheses, a geometrical, geometrical flat surface. So he he imposes on us

what the definition is before we even read the verses. And in this verse, by the way, when he talks about you know, the sky having a face, he's using Matthew and Luke same passage to different eyewitnesses. And these guys are speaking, they're not talking about the shape of the heaven or the earth. They're talking about weather conditions plainly. But here's what's interesting. They love to use that word face. My brother did it, did it a moment ago, the face of the waters. And so what he does

here is he says, that's a geometrical flat surface. The face of the sky, that's a geometrical flat surface. Really, a couple things about that. Number One, you ever seen the face of a mountain. That's not a geometrical flat surface. You ever seen your own face, like look in the mirror. Not only does it have topography, it's the front of a

sphere. It's connected to a globe on your shoulders. And he has dozens and dozens and dozens of verses twenty eight in fact that says a geometrical flat surface is the fact when the Bible says Earth has a face, And there are twenty eight verses that simply say the face of the earth, the face of the earth. But he tells us what to believe before we get a chance for the context to tell us why we should believe it. It's a geometrical flat surface. No it's not. No, it's not. It's an

expression when the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. That doesn't mean that he went from one side to the other across all the flatness of the earth. It's a metaphor. I just gave you ten metaphors, and there's ten thousand of them in the Bible. It is a book of poetry. Even if people want to say you shouldn't say things like it's a book of metaphors and a book of poetry, why not. It's a book of poetry. Most of what is quoted comes so often out of the Book

of Psalms. It's a poetry book. It's beautiful. I love it, believe every word of it. But it's still a nalogistic And he has twenty eight verses for that one. He has I call them up here, fifty four verses for the other faces of co of water and sky, all of these verses, and they all say the exact same with No, you don't even need my context or your context. The context is it's a simple illustrative term. Just the face of the earth. That's it. There's No,

there's no shape in it. Nobody wins that argument, not me, not you. It's not a face as far as the shape of the earth. It's an expression of what's happening in that particular part of the earth. Man. There's just there's so many I love this one. Job thirty seventy ten. Can we put that up there? Job thirty seventeen. He says his description is waters are straight, not curved. Based off this verse, by the breath of God, frost is given and the breath of the waters is

straightened. He's talking about frozen water. By the breath of God, frost is given and the breadth of the waters is straightened. Yeah, I have been, uh, snowmobiling on frozen waters. That's that's not a difficult reality. Now. I do find it interesting. It's anybody back here in the little little backstage place back here. I'm a I'm a gravel of something here. I find it interesting. I can just keep talking to walking that.

One of the things that's that's always said is water finds its own level. Water don't curve. It's interesting that when you get an actual tool called a level, that the water in the middle of it is a bubble. And wait a minute. You ever seen a rain drop? It's spherical? Huh. Water don't curve? Really, you ever seen do in the morning on the grass? Water don't curve. Tell us surfer that water don't curve.

Tell the people in Philippines right now, they're probably experiencing a unbelievable weather pattern of the ocean coming against them in a tsunami because of a huge I think seven point two perhaps earthquake happened to just maybe three hours before we started, four hours before we started. Tell them that water don't curve. You see, I love how everybody's like water finds its own level. You know why this is beautiful? Do you know why water always finds its own level because

of gravity? Because of gravity? You know why a level works only because of gravity? That's it. Now, I'm not interested in other people's ideas of what they think gravity is. Would be here till one o'clock in the morning, but just to show you, right, just to show you, let's just be honest. We're trying to be honest, all right, That what we want bootleg honesty. Let's just be honest. How many of you in this room on either side in our church it don't matter. No shame

in this game. We just talking. We just debate how many of you do not believe in gravity? But you stand to your feet right now? Stand? You just stand up for a minute. And that's okay. I'm not shaming you. I'm not shaming. I'm not shaming. All right, letna sit out. That's fine, man. So all of that, we can get into all the science. But I find it interesting that we want to use Bible verses to try to backhandedly teach something that simple observation doesn't even

teach. Okay, you can come up with all these and I know even mister flat earth Dave, I know he has a whole different you know, he doesn't have the you know, Uppard acceleration he's got, He's got this whole you know, fantastical idea. Get it. I applaud people that want to use their brain. I'm not trying to shame people. My whole build is believe in flat earth. All you won't and let's be friends. But

do not tell me that the Bible consistently teaches it. It doesn't. The Bible does not teach any form of cosmology as far as the shape of the Earth is concerned. I'm not talking about creation for all of the sound bite technicians that are in the room. But then it says earth has ends. There are forty verses that talk about the ends of the earth. Now do I believe in that phrase? Absolutely, of course I believe in that phrase.

I wouldn't be a Bible believer if I didna Deuteronomy, chapter number twenty eight. And again, he's got all of these verses. There's no way that I can deal with all of them. But in verse forty nine, listen what the Bible actually says about this context. The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far from the end of the earth. It pretty plane He's gonna bring him from the end of the earth as swift as the eagle

flieth. A nation who's tongue thou shalt not understand. He tells Israel, a nation from the far reaches of the world are going to come and they are going to subdue you. But let's just say, let's just say hypothetically from my side, that this really means that these people are coming from to gather them up, coming from the end of the earth. Then I have to be clear. Are you then saying that you believe there are multitudes of people that live on the ice wall at the end of the earth that are

going to come in and subdue the nation of Israel. If you believe that, that's okay, that's okay. But it's the problem of taking metaphorical terminology and trying to make it literal, because he clearly is not talking about any actual ends of the earth. He's talking about far regions and distances. Let me give you another one. He gives many. You can read them anytime. They're all right here, and they're all in the Bible, right, They're all in the Bible. First Samuel, chapter two, First Samuel,

Chapter two, Verse ten. The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces out of heaven shall he thunder upon them. The Lord shall judge the ends of the earth. The Lord shall judge the ends of the earth. Okay, So it's God literally literally speaking. Is God going to pronounce judgment upon those geographical real estates ends or is it maybe referring metaphorically to the people in the far regions of the world that God's going to judge because they did

not live right. Well, if a gun was put to my head, I believe I'd go with the metaphorical analogy, okay. And there are many, many, many, many many of these Isaiah fifty two. Matter fact, let me just give you another one, Isaiah chapter fifty two. I love using the Bible, so I like to flip. I don't care about them screens Isaiah chapter fifty two, Verse him, By the way, these are on his lists, not mine. The Lord hath made bear his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the

earth shall see the salvation of our God. So now the ice wall has eyes, and they're gonna see the salvation. No, it's the people from far distant regions. It's it's simple metaphor. And it's truly unbiblically silly to try to force anything else into the text. And there are many, many, many of these. Matter of fact, here's one that he did not put on his list, and I don't think it was accidental oversight, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Psalm twenty two, verse twenty

seven. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord, and all the kindreds of the nation shall worship before him. I wonder why he skipped that one well, because it proves that the ends of the world are people, not actual ends that are guarded by a continent that is not stretched around the entire circumference of a flat earth model. It's just not And I can't wait till we go. We're going. We're going. Okay, money's in the bank, We're going, We're going, Hey, lemitate

something I'll eat crow. I've apologize for a lot of things my ministry, but I hope y'all be willing to repent as well, because we're going. Don't tell you something else we're gonna do. Maybe I'm working on this. You see, I came well prepared. I may not have all the understanding scientifically the inner workings, and I appreciate all of his study, but I do some pretty good due diligence. There's an outfit called Worldview that launches next

year. They got these big capsules that they put six people in. Want to come out, and they no, no, no, no, don't see gi me because I'm gonna put you in one of them. And they they put six people in these capsules. They put them in a balloon. They take them up to one hundred and ten thousand feet. Now, look, look, I don't care about your fish eye lens. I don't care about you. I don't care about your horizon. I fly around the world all the time. You ain't gonna see no, you know, curvature at

thirty five thousand feet, You're just not So you win that one. But I love how you say that picture of curvature out that airplane window is curved. Yeah, but when it's straight, the picture's okay. I guess right. So she can't have it both ways hypocritical. So I contacted the people that have already done their tests and gone up there, right. They cost seventy five thousand dollars. You're computing with me seventy five thousand dollars to put

one person amongst six in a capsule. We've got a rancher friend in Texas. I called Worldview like it's what to call, and I've got things worked out, hopefully not date wise. Got it down to fifty grand fifty grand, and got a cattle rancher in Texas gonna pay for the ticket. And I'm gonna let either Dave Dean, Mark Sergeant ain't going Mark Sergeant ain't one of y'all by the way, you know that he's done more damage to the

flat earth movement than any Hollywood actor on the plane. I don't care if you had to room the night Mark sergeant, you ain't gonna get the might know how I love that show, you know, Beyond the Curve, And they're trying to make flat earthers not look like they're people that are crazy that live in their mother basement. And then the next scene is Mark coming out

of his mother's basement and she's cooking in food. He's not done you any favors, but you can choose whoever you want to, whoever you want to. We'll get the cattle rancher. And since I've not seen it and you've not seen it, I'm gonna take your word for it. You ain't gotta take no fish eye limbs. You can just go right on up in that capsule, will sip you some coffee. It's an eight hour tour got him down to fifty grand. What a deal. So wouldn't you get froggy let's

jump you see, I believe in putting money where the mouth is. I don't believe in just open end and say wall I ain't never saw it and you know that most people never will until now. So we gonna send someone up and me and him gonna get sent out there, and we're gonna go find your magnetic mountain maroon nonsense with the spirit of destiny. You started that a Satanist. Don't you come about this argument of authority NASA? NASA, the first person to put flat Earth on the Internet was Mark Braun, and

that guy is a Satanic blood ritualistic heathen. And I don't care if you're in a building either. Odcast that demon out of you tonight. Quit And then I so NASA is evil. You got your ideas of a lot of this nonsense from Mark Braun, who is beyond evil and even claims to be Satan himself. Don't come to that argument of authority. You have no authority. Nobody believed this stuff before YouTube, other than a handful of people that

got a little bit resurrected in nineteen seventy one. But before that it was just a Catholic church, which I find interesting Catholic means universal. It was a Catholic church that on to Samuel ray Botham's stuff. For all these years, nobody went for it. It's been outdated and disproven for twenty five hundred years. Twenty five hundred years. Uh, that's fine, that's fine. Oh you know, oh tells me you're part of the Last Day's deception.

That's what you're part of now. By the way, if you can get up here and say that about me, why can't I get up here in this church and say that about you. It's a deception. It's cost more division than anything I could ever imagine. I have been treated better by the Alphabet cult than I have flat Earthers in a month. In a month, I got Muslims, and I call out that treat me better than flat earthers. It has become the most fitcheryolid, divisive amount of bogusry on both sides.

I'm not saying that we're not always you know, the right ones. Listen, we've caused in trouble too, were throwing gas on the fire too. But I hope that at least we can understand that when we leave tonight. Yeah we get passionate, Yeah we get fired. Oh yeah, we talk back to the crowd. Yeah we throw maters and taters. Okay, we get that stuff all the time. We've been into trenches for a long time. But if we're gonna talk about being spiritually persecuted, make sure it's

for the Gospel. Now, because of what you think the shape of the earth is. Oh my goodness, I just can't get my family to invite me back to Thanksgiving dinner. I just love Jesus so much. Maybe it's not because you love Jesus so much. Maybe it's because you won't shut up about the shape of the earth. It's really not that big a deal. It's really not because we believe the same thing about creation, and you've tried to make creation flat earth. We don't disagree about creation. We disagree about

the shape of that which was created. Now, look, there's two hundred and forty of them on here. I'm not going through all of them, obviously, but it's shocking to me that I can ask, can I don't even know, maybe a bunch of people raise your hand out when I can ask who's read this? Who's seen this? And everybody's like, we got this a whole full room. And these are the definitive doctrinal verses for flat earth. Do you have any more? Oh? I got these lists,

I got all the verses. We've already dealt with some of the verses that then gave me every single one of them. Do you need to say something? But oh yeah, go ahead, go ahead, you've got the mic. Just go ahead. Let me finish my verses, but you go ahead. I just want to say this about about that list and about Nathan Roberts. Okay, list, And I'm not saying you're affiliated with him. No no, no, no, no, no, all right, s let me just a second second. I just want to say this about Nathan Robbins.

Okay, what you're doing with that list there, you're debating Nathan Roberts, not us. No, Okay, hold on, I'm telling you the Bible. And here's how I know that, because when I discread it. Let me let me finish when I say about Nathan, okay, but I don't know where about Nathan. No, but but you've been debating his list. I do know I have. Let me. Let me say what I gotta say about his list. I have never posted his list because I don't

agree that all the verses refer to. I don't believe that you agree with all of them. Absolutely. There's some of them that are just foolish. Now, some of them refer he says flat Earth. But he's talking about just cosmology in general. But listen, Nathan Roberts was a young believer who I had to correct and rebuke and instruct on many things. He was a very young believer, and he was wrong about a lot of things. And he has since disappeared. Now, if you want to debate him, I

know he since disappeared. But here's the deal. These verses have so infiltrated the movement, whether you wrote him or not. That's why when I contact usually disproved them, the crowd shouts at me and their math. Well, hear what I'm saying, though, I hear what you're saying. Here. What I'm saying is Nathan Roberts is not the issue. And we don't agree with a lot of scriptures that's on his list that he took them out of context and they don't apply. So using his list is not debating me,

it's debating him absolutely. But the question is how many verses do you have for flat Earth? How many? No, he didn't, No, he didn't. He only dealt with the firmament. He only dealt with the firmament. There were no verses that he used on flat not one. Yes, I did not only the clay, and I explained that that's the sun. Right. No, no, no, no, you didn't deal with the other verses I pulled from Isaiah and sosngs. You didn't deal with that. But I will, I suppose gonna say in my rebuttal. Do I still

get a rebuttal? Sure? Absolutely, I mean we are not gonna be able to go all night, but you go ahead and start doing a rebuttal right now, and be all right. I got so much to say these verses. There's tons of these verses I got. I got pages of my own notes pages. Amen. Amen, all right, I'm gonna be I'm gonna try to be brief here, and I do you said, and I'm gonna hold you to your word. You said that I could bring anybody I wanted. So I'm gonna call up a couple of people to answer some things.

Austin and Uh, We'll let you come up and answer a couple of things that you've said. But let me let me address just a few things in what Pastor Gregg has showed. I'm gonna show you some things now. First of all, I want to say this, and let me go back to my notes here that I made while you were speaking. First of all, you say you're okay with us believing flatter then you say that is in

time deception. Then you talk about you don't you don't want to insult people, But then you say things like you make God a liar if you believe flat earth. So I don't see how that you called us clowns. I didn't say that tonight, No, but you said it through this whole thing. So what I'm saying is is that we, the people out here that are getting a little upset with you, is because the way that you insult people. Oh no, no, no, no way. Uh huh.

You said we weren't Christians if we didn't believe in flat ar. Yes, you most certainly did say that. Oh no, absolutely no. Don't you shout me down in own church to me, I never said. And then this is a fact. You absolutely You've reached this for years. Don't interrupt me. I have said for years you do not have to believe in flat earth biblical cosmology to be a born again Christian. I have never made that

an issue. We'll rewind the video tonight when we're done. When you said that we're not biblical Christians, if we do not adhere to these to speak out against tongues in deliverance, you were not a biblical Christian in that area. And guess what tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Flat earth is not a gift of the Holy spirits in the body hold aretical bunch of non sin. Do I get to do my rebuttal without you interrupting me?

Or no quit asking me questions if you don't want me to rebuttle back you I needed you said you would speak, then I would get a rebubbal. Yeah I was still speaking, but I've been nice enough to let you jump up in rebuttal let me finish. So rebuttal actually give one without interrupting. Then don't ask me a question. That's the whole point. We did this a minute ago, where we asked questions and you let me speak and I let you see, I didn't say and that's what we're doing. I didn't

say, so give you a rebuttal. So I'm gonna give it all. Right, first of all, let's say this, and by the way, I'm just gonna have this in it. You know, when we came this weekend, I was hoping that things would stay sweet nice between us. But it's not the case. And so what I did was I rented a room

at the UH at the Marriotte for tomorrow morning. If anybody wants to come have church with fire and gray shirt, absolutely, because I'm not gonna sit here under this kind of belligerent attacks and calling people names and stuff like that. I'm just not gonna. I can't. I can't come back here because of okay, all right, but here you can do it, but I can't be abrasive. And because then that hurts everybody's feelings. That's okay, I get it. I get it. I'll second, I get it.

Has anybody? Has anybody? I've never called you a clown? You called when you got up talking about this a few weeks ago, you said, hey, quit saying a few weeks ago. That was the first time I ever even mentioned it. I'm talking about tonight. Tonight you have been insulting and and and I wanted to keep it nice and listen, let me say this very let me say this very clearly. Let me say this very clearly.

You told me that I was involved in a deception. You are, and then when I say it, You're like, oh my goodness, my feelings hurt. We believe each other is deceived, and that's fine. But when you say moronic, idiotic, when you start going down. I didn't call you or anybody that. I said. We attack ideologies, and as far as I'm concerned, the ideology is moronic. All right, let me, let me, let me show you where you were this, this is the kind of stuff, he said. Okay, you've started this out.

In Hebrews eleven three. I took a little note here he says, through faith, we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that which so the things which are seen are not my even things which appear. Now, his argument was that the term worlds here means the planets, the soldier system. The word here, if he looked it up in the Greek dictionary, find out he doesn't mean anything like that. In fact, the word is the Greek word eon, which means ages or time periods,

not planets. So that that you just did, but that verse is deception and error. Well, then explain the two verses that I use that led into that verse, because they did prove that we are the only habitable planet amongst many. No, no, no, well, first of all, the word planet does not exist. It's used one time in the King James version, and that's a mistranslation because the action it's always a mistransla your side, it's always mistranslation. The actual Hebrew word is mazi law, which

means constellations, not planets. And that's a fact. And that's not a fact. Then you're deceived, all right. If me being deceived means I believe in a spherical earth, I'm deceived. And you can just go ahead and leave and cancel this debate right now, because you're not gonna convince me what the Bible clearly says. The Earth is not flat one thousand percent. And if I got people in our church that think it is, that's great. I love you. But if you want to go to his little service

in the morning, then go to His service in the morning. It's not gonna bother me one bit. The Earth is not flat. It was disproven twenty five hundred years ago. You can't show me one verse in the Bible that proves that the Earth is flat. It's nonsense. It's nonsense. We're not gonna get anywhere else because here's the problem. You use two hours of

PowerPoint presentation, and your people are quiet. I use an hour and fifteen minutes of the Bible and they get mad and start throwing maters and taters at me. Okay, all right, so here's a bill. Let me just say this, and now I will I'm out now, but I want to say this. Oh listen, your folks are standing up yelling, go get out. Okay, you know what. That's fine with me. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I gave you the scriptures.

He gave you his version, he told somebody else's. But hold on, hold on, no, no, this is non You came up with your scriptures and gave your interpretation of them. I gave. I gave you the Bible interpretation the Bible. I gave more Bible than you did. For a fact, right there? All right, Oh really that's a fact. Well I'll tell you what. How about how about in your rebuttal, I'll keep my mouth shut and you tell me how wrong I was about your misapplication

of the rings stopping in joke Chapter thirty eight. First of all, hello, is it sunrise or not? Not? Not at all? I don't agree with that party is Mike off? Get out. Wow, you're a Bible denier. You're a Bible denier. You're a Bible denier. That is ridiculous, Bible denier. Just get out, get the band up here, let's worship the Lord. I ain't putting over this nonsense. No, I gave you our platform. Then y'all want to get up here with a bunch

of nonsense. Come up here, band, let's worship the Lord. We're gonna we're gonna actually do something spiritual in this room. Tonight's set of talk about flat earth nonsense. And by the way, if you go to this church and you're upset about me taking the Bible in its context and dealing with it, and you're gonna keep sowing that discord, don't ever come back. That's all I'm gonna tell you right now. Don't. I'm not listening. It's a last Day's deception. I do not care if this is a UFC

smack down to the MAP. I would highly suggest that people keep their mouth shuts, getting in their car and go where they need to be. We'll see you at ten thirty in the morning. We're gonna have a packed house and we're gonna preach what the Bible says, if you believe the Bible, global vision shot. Amen, and there you go. What a crazy ending to this four hour and eight minute what was supposed to be a debate. And it's a really odd scene. There's a bunch of gentlemen up front by

the stage who were wearing like tactical vest. Now I did see somewhere on social media that there was some kind of and now there's a woman on stage twirling flags and a guy in Nashville Predators Jersey standing there with a hat on. Just a very weird scene. Four hours of Now listen, here's what

should have happened, hindsight twenty twenty got it. It should have been ten minutes of here's the ground rules, one hour of pastor total, one hour of pastor lock and then you know, fifteen minute rebuttals for each and done. That's it. This became a very divisive event, and from a Christian, you know, christ following type of perspective, it was disappointing and divisive. Now you got guys in a church full battle rattle. What a weird

scene on this Saturday night, December second, twenty twenty three. It's now eleven to ten pm Eastern standard time for all the people listening live. We've been streaming since seven pm Eastern Time, and again it's now what eleven eleven pm Eastern time. Just what a crazy, crazy scene tonight. Again, our one was really useless. It was back and forth banter for the next ninety minutes. I thought Pastor Dinodle did a tremendous job, really laid everything

out really well. And I looked on the YouTube count. At some point I think it was close to thirty five hundred people were watching just on pastor lock stream. And that's the when I looked up the Global Vision Bible Church. The chat room was very divisive. And again, this is a Saturday night. To have a a lot of people invested in this was quite interesting. But you're in a church and you have the congregation yelling at each other.

So if you're going to present this in a church, it has to be you can't bring teammate, a team b it's just got to be in a controlled environment and you present it very peacefully. And it should have been. And here's the thing. I reached out to Pastor Locke and I said, hey, I want to come and present it just in the form of what was in the Bible. The first hour, I think they've read one Bible verse and it was because you know, Pastor lac scene to be instigating.

And hour two when Pastor Odal came on, he used a little bit of both. You know, he talked about the Bible, but he also used many of the resources that we talk about on the podcast. So again, the YouTube comments were interesting, very divided in there. Inside the church, people were very divided. But it also seemed to me and this, I think the most disappointing thing out of the whole thing was everybody had their

minds made up before it started. Now, one of our listeners I was chatting with I'm actually in them right now, Gary, and I was chatting with Dan, and everybody is basically with the way it ended, mouths open, like what really that just happened in a church. Disappointing, disappointing, very disappointing. Obviously, Pastor Odo will be holding church in I think he said the marriyout tomorrow morning. But it started promptly at seven pm Eastern time.

And again it should have been one hour of each with the ground rules and maybe fifteen minutes, and that should have been it everybody should have been allowed to make their own decision. Right, you present your side, the other guy presents his side, and let the congregation decide for themselves. Not to get into this unruly and Pastor luck if you notice guys, not to say this is a conspira theory. But Pastor Locke's microphone was certainly a few

decibels louder than Pastor odeles. I pretty much notated all the Bible verses that were used. Pastor Odele used I think close to I'm just guessing looking at this twenty five Pastor Locke, uh seven or eight, and you know, at the top of our four things got very chippy, and then five six minutes later that was it. That was really it, Pastor Locke. I don't want to make it seem like I'm one sided because I'm friendly with Pastor Odele. I don't want it to come off that way. But I don't

think Pastor Odell overstepped his boundary. And once again I told you that the alex jo in effect was going to take place. When you invite somebody to your chow, your church, excuse me, to your place of worship, to your home. They're your guest and they are your guests, and you simply cannot Greek people that way. So very interesting. This is going to be a hot topic over the next few days. We'll see where this goes. I'm going to wrap this up, do a quick edit and put it

out. It's eleven almost, you know, it'll be close to midnight by the time I'm done editing this, and I'm tired. It's been a busy day. So there you go. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this. Send me your thoughts the flat Earthfiles at gmail dot com. Again, it is the flat Earth Files at gmail dot com. I'd love to hear your thoughts. So I had a whole bunch of notes. But folks, it's four hours fifteen minutes in. I think everything has been said that needs

to be said. God bless you all. Keep your head on a swivel, and until the next time we meet, my friends, we will see you. You're listening to the Fact Hunter Radio Network The Facts Mammy