[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the First Customer Podcast. My name is Jay Aigner. Today, I'm lucky enough to be joined by Kirsten Bronkovic, CEO and co founder of Empath Ed. How are you doing, Kirsten?
[00:00:38] Kirsten: Great. How about you, Jay?
[00:00:39] Jay: I am great. It's a hot Tuesday here in Philadelphia, but other than that, we're doing good. So I've met you a few times at different events, finally got you on the podcast.
So thank you for joining me today. Let's start with where you grew up. I saw something very interesting on your LinkedIn that I'm dying to ask about, but where did you start your journey?
[00:01:02] Kirsten: yeah, I grew up in Newtown, Pennsylvania and, went to, Council Rock High School and all through Council Rock. and yeah, with my parents. My parents still live there and with, my younger sister.
[00:01:15] Jay: Beautiful.
[00:01:16] Kirsten: yeah.
So,
[00:01:17] Jay: my son just graduated Council Rock and my wife went to Council Rock, so we're all, and I think we knew that. I think there was somebody connected,
[00:01:23] Kirsten: I think my sis Yeah, I think my sister graduated with your wife, I
[00:01:27] Jay: That's what it was. That's exactly what it was. Yes.
[00:01:29] Kirsten: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:01:30] Jay: All right. So, huh.
[00:01:30] Kirsten: on your graduate. Yeah.
[00:01:32] Jay: Thank you. We, man, we got him by, you know, it was,
[00:01:35] Kirsten: Okay
[00:01:36] Jay: we got him out.
He's good. He's made it. He made it out. I did. I'm curious. did anything kind of along your, you know, kind of where he grew up, was there anything that impacted your entrepreneurial journey as you kind of went up and grew up in the Bucks County area?
[00:01:49] Kirsten: Let's see. I would say I don't know. I'd say my parents, you know, were very encouraging. I was always kind of enterprising you know As a young kid. So I think, and I just grew up in a neighborhood where I kind of tested out some of my early businesses. so, it was like a very friendly neighborhood with lots of kids and, you know, very encouraging adults.
So, You know, we would have, we'd make our own art, hold an art sale. You know, I take the doubles and triples of my baseball cards and repackage them in my own packaging and sell them door to door. You know? so I just kind of grew up in a founder friendly neighborhood, I guess. You know?
[00:02:27] Jay: Okay. I like that. tell me about this Seamaster at Sea thing. I saw that and I was like, First of all I'd like, what was the, there was some religion that did that too, they had like a boat that they all went on and,not Noah's
[00:02:41] Kirsten: not Noah's
[00:02:42] Jay: no, it was another boat, it was, was it Scientology, they had like a boat or something and they all like went around the, there was something as, anyway, I'm sure it's not the same thing, but it sparked my, imagination there for a second.
Tell me about Seamaster at Sea, what was that?
[00:02:54] Kirsten: yeah. so it's a program that at the time was, sponsored by University of Pittsburgh, which is where I did my undergrad. and it rotates. to different universities for sponsorship, but it's a program where you take, college courses on a ship and you go around the world taking, you know, different university coursework and then you stop in, you know, 10 to 12 ports around the world and, do field studies there that support your classes and your interests.
So, yeah, I mean, it was. So, you know, we left from the Bahamas, went to Venezuela, Brazil, South Africa, Kenya, India, Malaysia, Hong Kong, got up to the mainland,Taiwan, Japan, and then ended up back in Seattle. So it was, yeah, definitely probably one of the most formative and like life changing, you know, experiences of my life. And, funny that you should ask that question because just found out two days ago, my. Daughter now in college. she was just accepted to semester. It's two semester at
sea. So she'll be going as well, so
[00:03:56] Jay: What kind of boat was it on? what kind of boat was it? Did you, was it like a big giant boat or what?
[00:04:01] Kirsten: Yeah right now the one they run is more like a cruise ship I haven't seen the new one, but the one that we were on was actually a converted Troop carrier from the Korean War that was never used so it was built to be a troop carrier the war ended they Took the ship and they converted it, put stabilizers on it and meeting it made it like a floating university. so it was, you know, they put stable stabilizers on it, but it was still like, a lot of sway, you know,
in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. but it was, yeah, it was incredible. So it was. It was a pretty large ship there about 400 undergraduates, on when I was there, and then there were some lifelong learners, some people that were retired or, that would be on there.
And then all the professors come from all over the country and the world. and then we had inner, port speakers that would come on. So, Desmond Tutu came onto our ship,
to speak to us and, you know, really got to see some interesting, interesting things went to townships in South Africa, villages in India.
And we can't really. You know, speakers that were experts in the area to come work with us. So
[00:05:08] Jay: That is cool. That's a long, that's a long way from Newtown, Pennsylvania. that is, that's quite an experience. It sounds like one that a lot of people should have. that's pretty lucky. so talk to me, about kind of the path after college, how did you kind of meander your way through and eventually kind of, end up co founding your own company?
[00:05:27] Kirsten: Yeah. so, let's see. So, I guess, you know, I went to pit and, political science major and kind of worked in political fundraising for a little bit. Got out of that and actually went back to school for education at night. while I was actually an executive recruiter by day. and, so I did all my coursework for education, everything except the student teaching. so at the time that I was like, got the house, kids, you know, those things that's kind of, It isn't conducive to student teaching at the time. so, and I was traveling with work, so I continued as an executive recruiter. and then actually, started, a business back around the 2000,at the end of 99, beginning of 2000, it was actually an Italian import company.
so right around the dot com era there. So, I had started that up, actually with,you know, in the basement and, we were importing things from Italy and then selling them to, retail and then corporate clients. so I kept that going. but I'd say I probably learned my biggest lesson from that experience was I loved what I was doing.
I loved the business idea and I loved like the feel of the business. but I didn't even understand like what an exit strategy was like, I didn't really know what that meant,
I just thought, Hey, let's start a business. We'll make money. And it's fun. You know, it's like a life
lifestyle type of thing. And, that didn't really enter into my mind really. so, So, I mean, it was a good learning experience, good exercise. shut that down, and moved out of the country for just a little bit. I moved to South America for just a few months, to Uruguay and then, came back,was here on the East Coast for a while and then, moved out to Lake Tahoe. And, there it was, I started working at the school where my children went, starting again with helping out with some fundraising, and then eventually became the advancement director was doing all the fundraising and outreach activities for this private school. Went back to my roots and,You know, actually offered to teach a civics seminar, you know, for my political science background and then soon was teaching that class and then was teaching the social studies class. I'm like directing Shakespeare and helping with curriculum and doing still is the main fundraiser, you know,
in a small private school, you kind of do everything. it was at that time, when we were out there that, my, my daughter was actually diagnosed with dyslexia. So, that was, kind of the, seed that would later become, why I started Empath Ed. But, you know, as soon as she was diagnosed, she was kind of, like, relieved, you know, and she started kind of... She embraced it and started kind of spreading the word started working with other students. and, you know, helping to inform people how she needed to learn and learn best. And, she was like, proud of her diagnosis, you know, so, ended up, coming back to, Back to the East Coast. And I knew I wanted to go back to school for something.
[00:08:20] Jay: I wasn't quite sure. I thought after my experience there, do I want to go, get certified in special education or what else do I want to do? so I took a job at a public school as a special education assistant, just as a kind of a testing the waters. Like, Mm
[00:08:34] Kirsten: do I. What do I want to do here? and then subsequently I got hired as a direct assistant director of admissions at another private school. So, my mind's mulling around and,my best friend actually said, Hey, there's this program at the University of Pennsylvania that really seems like it's like fits you. And, it was a. program to get your master's in education entrepreneurship.
So, I went back to school and, went there and,did a program there, which was, again, very, you know, very formative in life. Great, it was a great cohort. Great, instructors. And professors and they basically kind of taught you how to, form and scale, social impact organizations. So, in the back of my mind, I was like, I knew there had to be something for, and you have to do a capstone project. You kind of have to come in with some. They asked me to come in with some type of idea, and I knew I wanted to do something to help educate, teachers and, you know, parents, siblings, whatever, about their students with learning differences, because I feel like a lot of students are. and a lot of teachers, you know, want to do the right thing and mean well, but they're busy, you know, and so how can I create a short form, type of tool for them to,to learn about their students and, And how to interact more effectively, and teach more effectively and really have empathy for their students. So, so really my first idea was something like, Hey, how about just like a primer, you know, something written kind of old school and it kind of morphed. And while at Penn, I thought, you know, there should be some time at type of like tech component involved here. and, So, you know, when I was talking to my daughter, just, you know, harking back to conversations that, that I had with her, I just thought, you know, some of the things that she would say would be, you know, I'm trying so hard, how come people can't understand that or, you know, I am paying attention or it just takes me longer, you know, like if they could just sit in my seat for a few minutes and see how I see things. And I thought, ah, there it is. Like, If we could find a way to put someone literally in the seat of that student, then I think, you know, you would understand how do they navigate an environment? How might they learn, best and, how do they feel when you're interacting with them? So that, you know. let's build like an immersive platform, for teachers to experience. And if we could have a library of courses that tackle different, diagnoses, I'd thought that would be a great. So that became my capstone project at Penn. and while I was at Penn, I just started, you know, I was there probably a month or so.
And, you know, I formed an LLC and I started to put an advisory board together. Then I started kind of trying to Put the pieces together, how to build the business plan. How do I do this? So that was kind of like the arc of how it came to be. And then, you know, there's a whole post story of once it was the inception, but like, that's kind of how it came to, came to fruition was that kind of arc of experiences.
And I just feel like, you know, empathy is kind of like the root of everything, you know, it's, to understand how someone, feels and navigates Is the key to education
is the key to relationships and you know, my, you know, that's my daughter and my son, you know, he was born three months prematurely and, you know, he, we were in the NICU for months with him and, You know, and I just remember a lot of people saying like, oh, I don't know how you do it.
I don't know how you do it. You know, how do you, how do you deal with that? How do you navigate that? How do you and so it's always been in my brain to, you know, I feel like both of my kids have had life experiences where people ask like, oh, how does that work? Or how do you do that? Or how do you, I don't like to use the word overcome.
People say overcome. How do you, you know, I guess. Move forward, you know, and be successful, when there are certain obstacles that are perceived. So, that's just always been kind of, I think, in my DNA and, but just all the pieces fell into place where I saw that there was an opportunity to build,a real tool that was scalable and it could reach a lot of people and address a need in the market as well as, a need in society, you know?
[00:12:52] Jay: And the need with yourself, it sounds like you were kind of were naturally heading that way.
[00:12:58] Kirsten: Yeah.
Yeah.
[00:12:59] Jay: a lot to unpack there. But I will. I it's a great story. How does somebody without a tech background start to tackle a problem like that requires tech? How did you start to kind of, you know, peel back that onion?
[00:13:21] Kirsten: Yeah. so. You know, first I wrote the plan and I kind of wrote, I don't know, I guess like the best plan in my imagination, you know, of like how this should ideally, how should this work? Right. How should this be? So I did a lot of research on like, what are the capabilities out there? in, VR and, you know, immersive experiences. but then, you know, I was kind of always straddling that, like two things. One is. It's a VR, you know, organization, a VR company, but it's also an education company. Right? So, so I kind of said, what's the most basic wayto build this? Like, there are different modules where you're explaining a diagnosis, you're explaining the brain science behind what's going on. you're explaining how some of the struggles, how you can, accommodate for some of those struggles in the classroom. What are those strengths? What are the, some of the things that we can celebrate? and that's just pure multimedia, you know, just like that's done through animation and that's done through interviews. and then we VR experience, this immersive experience to, as I like to say, to kind of. Talk to the teacher, educational language, teacher's language, like, and then the VR, that's like the field trip, right? Now we're gonna take you to the place that you just learned all about, and you're gonna sit in the seat. So, really, I started out with really a rudimentary,way to do this. I got a, just a program on how to do, like, whiteboard videos, right? And, I'm like, I'm just gonna make, like, the most basic. rudimentary kind of teaching tool to test it out, right? What are people's reactions to this? and, you know, I'm a big believer in the, you know, one of my favorite books is Lean Startup, right? Like, you start with the smallest possible, you know, Presentation your right and put it out there and how do people react? So I just taught myself this program and I took it to school board meetings and I gave it to teachers and, give it to administrators, give it to parents.
And what do you like? What do you don't like? Why don't you like, And, then I was lucky enough to have, someone that I had asked on my advisory board, Remington Scott. and, he is, kind of a VR pioneer and, he happens to live in the same town that I do. His kids go to school with my kids and he had agreed to be on my board.
And I, went to him and asked them like, what's the best way to build this? Right. So he storyboarded things with me. He told me the best way to build this. experience, we were going to be doing like, you know, live VR shots, in classrooms and then we started talking about, oh, or is it better to do it, you know, and,More of an animated fashion, right?
So we were back and forth. He was helping me out with us. And then he, we were talking on the phone and he called me about a week later and he said, Hey, I have these two guys I want you to meet. He said, they are like top notch and, they, you don't do, You know, immersive experiences, multimedia,experiences.
And, he said, you might want to, you might want to talk to them. So I met with them. They're excellent. You know, they're just, we clicked, they had the skillset, they had the passion. Got what I was trying to do. And the idea was for me to kind of bring them on as a, as like a vendor relationship. And, then they said, you know, we had a few conversations and they said, we love this.
[00:16:38] Jay: we do a lot of work in like Hollywood in New York. but this is like noble work, you know? So, I said, that's. It's awesome because,I'm trying to figure out like, how noble are you feeling? Because I don't have any money. So, The answer had to be very noble,
[00:16:55] Kirsten: very noble,
[00:16:56] Jay: very noble.
[00:16:58] Kirsten: Yeah, it's, pretty noble. so we actually start and then about two weeks later, the pandemic hit. So we agreed to be partners and then during the pandemic, we kind of went underground and just started developing, you know, so, and so I lean on them as, you know, my tech, expertise and, you know, I was, I still talked to Remington and, you know, I kind of built a team around me that, Has the, has the knowhow. Knowhow and the savvy. But I think my piece is that I communicate like how I, what I want people to learn and how I want people to feel. Right. and then I kind of depend on my, my, my, technical partners to bring it to life and, and they bring it to life. they're incredible. and then our first course, our dyslexia course, my daughter sat in on and, basically helped build the,the immersive experience. And, you know, we used feedback from several students with dyslexia. but she was sitting there editing with, my co founder saying, no, it doesn't look like that.
No, that's, let's not say that. No. And at the time my daughter was like 16 and she's like, no, that's not right. You know? So, you know, we build it with, the person with the diagnosis to have the power in our, in what we put out there.
[00:18:17] Jay: So who is the target customer for you guys?
[00:18:21] Kirsten: Yeah, so when we first entered the market, you know, I was really going after K to 12 schools, and That was, you know, that was my first client and, but then we've had Tutoring organizations use us. we've had the Easterseals in Arkansas who they're contracted with the state of Arkansas to deliver professional development to, Teachers and special education teachers in that state. so it's pretty much any education organization. so a school, a another 1 of our clients is, University of Pittsburgh, actually the Fox school. So they have, like, a school. A K to 12 school within their, I'm sorry, K to eight school within the university. so it could be a nonprofit. It could be a K to 12 school. we're actually now getting interest, from higher ed, also to train their professors and also their pre service teachers. So, and some schools are saying, hey, can we open this platform up when we train our teachers? So our parents can use it too because our parents have to be on the same page and I said, yeah, absolutely That's we all have to be speaking the same language and understanding The experience, you know people's experiences.
So in short, you know education organizations and any type of like Nonprofit with an education mission.
[00:19:36] Jay: Got it. if you had to start back over tomorrow with all the lessons learned, and this isn't a, what would you do differently question, but it is a, what would be step one? If you were to start things back over tomorrow with all the lessons you've learned so far
[00:19:53] Kirsten: Will be step one. Yeah, I think I thought about this and I feel like I really stepped through the process of how to start a business as I was taking a, experiencing a program on how to start a business. So I feel like I really like stepped through it doing like all the right things, but I think probably should have, I mean, I think this is, I think a lot of entrepreneurs say this probably should have like gone to market earlier.
[00:20:37] Jay: Hmm.
[00:20:38] Kirsten: I think you kind of wait. You're just like, Oh, now we're ready. Okay. Oh, no, I just need these
three things and then we'll be ready. So I think, probably step one would, as much as I'm happy that I built all these, you know, great, an advisory board and built all the supports around it. I think I probably go out to a, a school and just say, Would you buy this?
Like you buy this now,
you know, even if it's not finished, would you buy it? And I got, you know, I got close to that. I was like, Oh, what do you think of this? And blah, blah, blah. But I think probably just like week one, just say, Hey, do you want to buy this? And it wasn't built yet. Right. So, so I think, I think that's probably what I would have done,
[00:21:21] Jay: Yeah, I think
[00:21:22] Kirsten: done differently.
[00:21:23] Jay: I think they always say, you know, You can disprove that something or you can prove that something doesn't work before it gets to production. But you can't really prove that it works until it's in people's hands and they're or they're paying for it. So like it's one of those things where like you said is define the MVP as slim as possible and then just get it out there.
the waiting doesn't matter if it's consulting or whatever like whatever it is, like the waiting game is what kills off or delays you know a lot of people I talk to so I think that's a really fair answer. Well, let's switch gears a little bit. you're a mom, you're a business owner.
[00:21:58] Kirsten: what are three kind of health tips, physical, mental, emotional, whatever it is that you kind of live by, to keep your longevity up, to keep you tuned up as, you know, high caliber for as long as possible? this is kind of newer in my repertoire. I'm trying to sleep more,
you know, I was like going and. And not sleeping that much. And
mostly because my wheels are always turning too, you know, like there's always something to do. There's always
one more thought, one more thing to do. so I've been trying to be conscious probably in the last six months or so.
LikeI need to just sleep. I need to like rest my brain, you know?
So, that, and then just a practice that I think, I keep is for both for with my kids is being present. Right. So, Really, when we're talking, like I'm talking to them, you know, I'm like, I'm not half doing something else, or if I am half doing something else, I'm like, okay, I'm listening, but I have to do this and like, I'm right, I'm in and out right now, or we also go into a zone where I'm just like, okay, I can't, I need an hour where I like, can't talk, right?
so I can be totally present for when I'm, because I think, Okay. I see that in a lot of, whether you have a business or not, like, a lot of, adults and kids, like, everyone's kind of like half paying attention,
like you're half on your phone, you're half checking email, you're half talking to somebody,
so I really try to block that off where I'm just like, I'm not on my phone right now, I'm not dealing with something, business right now, and, I'm like listening and I'm hearing what's going on.
And, you know, we have a great practice with my kids and in our house where we just say like, okay, we're having work hours. So they're doing homework, I'm doing work. Like, it's just like, we know not to kind of, I don't want to say it sounds harsh, but like not to interrupt the other one. Like we're all in the zone,
[00:23:56] Jay: Mm hmm.
[00:23:56] Kirsten: and we're kind of all in flow, right? So, so we have that time and then when that's over, like, okay, let's. Watch a movie. Let's have dinner. let's do this. So, being able to do that is, I think, really healthy.
[00:24:08] Jay: I like to
[00:24:10] Kirsten: Yeah.
[00:24:11] Jay: of something I work on too, for sure. And, with my wife as well. I try not to. I say that and she'll tell you that I probably am not, you know, fully engaged all the time. So, you know, when she listens to these, I'm sure she'll comment to me that I need to do a better job of that.
[00:24:28] Kirsten: But, I love that. heh. It's hard, they tease me, because when I am kind of at half in, half out, I'll, you know, I'll say, Hey guys, can you... And then I'll go back to work
and like, I never finished the sentence. And then they just start laughing. I'm like, what? And they're like, you did it again.
Like, I'm like, what did I do?
Like, I didn't even realize I was talking, you know, I was
like, so out of it. So, your kids are good to keep you honest, you know,
[00:24:50] Jay: Oh They don't hold back. they don't hold back. I'm sure like I Promise trips to the moon and all sorts of other stuff when I'm half paying, you know Though I could didn't get anything they want out of me when I'm not really fully focused. So Mainly financially I have to start, you know, can I buy this?
I'm again, just whatever I'm doing something. I'm not paying attention So I you know, I have to start paying better attention So non business related mystery question is If there was one thing you could do on Earth that you couldn't fail, what would it be?
One thing I could do on earth where I couldn't fail? It's my favorite silence of the episodes, is right now.
[00:25:41] Kirsten: I would say that's a good question. I mean, I don't, it seems like a cheat answer to say like, do what I'm doing. Like I always
[00:25:59] Jay: That's a cheat answer. That is a cheat answer.
[00:26:01] Kirsten: Okay. that's a, cheat, answer. All
[00:26:04] Jay: you know, that's a, I appreciate your honesty of knowing that's a cheat answer, because I
[00:26:08] Kirsten: I thought maybe I could,
[00:26:09] Jay: and sometimes I let it slide, but you caught yourself, so I won't let that one slide. Anything on the bucket list that you would do that you're maybe afraid of failing at?
[00:26:17] Kirsten: Oh yeah. I think I would, I mean, I love to travel, you know? So I would say, You know, hitting as many countries and in the world that I could go to, travel with my kids, travel with my family. all right, I'll give you one. I'll give you one from way back.
So when I was a, so when I was a kid, I was, well, I still am, but,
I was a, I'm a huge Phillies fan,
right?
So, when I was in third grade, you know, I would wear my Phillies hat to school every day. And, you know, I knew the whole starting lineup of the 1980 Phillies. I'd probably still give it to you. And, I always wrote down to like one of my goals as a kid, like I was always writing down goals when I was young. it was that I wanted to be the first, I want to be the first woman in the MLB.
So
[00:27:02] Jay: See, that's fair. I like that. That's a good one. that's a throwback. you know, I think we all wanted to be in the MLB at some point, not all of us, but, I definitely did as well. So that's a good answer. I like that. That's, and my daughter would appreciate that answer.
[00:27:13] Kirsten: she's, my kids are all into hockey and she's, you know, I was like, she thinks NHL one day. So, Oh yeah.
[00:27:20] Jay: we'll see.
[00:27:20] Kirsten: go for it. You never know.
[00:27:22] Jay: You gotta go for it, right? alright, well, you've been fantastic. If they're, if people want to find you, if they want to find Empath Ed, like, what's the best way to reach you or, your organization?
[00:27:31] Kirsten: Yeah. So our. Website is, empath educate. com. And then you can get me at, K Bronko at empath educate. com.
[00:27:40] Jay: Okay. and LinkedIn? are you a LinkedIn er?
[00:27:42] Kirsten: on like I am. I'm a LinkedIn er
yeah,
[00:27:45] Jay: Yeah. I feel like I give them so many plugs for LinkedIn. you know. It's a good site, though. It's good for networking. It's another thing I always tell people, like, why are you not... Making better use of LinkedIn. There's everybody's on it. well, you were fantastic.
I love your stories. I love the semester. See, I love the thought and the, you know, the theory behind empath,ed. So I hope, you know, we'll see you at some other conferences and, it was great having you on. So thank you, Kirsten. And we'll talk again soon. All right.
[00:28:11] Kirsten: All right. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.
[00:28:12] Jay: It was great.
Have a good one. See ya.
[00:28:14] Kirsten: Thanks. You too. Take care.