[00:00:27] Jay: Hi everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name is Jay Aigner. Today, I'm lucky enough to be joined by Justin Furniss, CEO and founder of SecureCoders. Justin, how are you, buddy?
[00:00:37] Justin: I am doing fantastic. How are you?
[00:00:39] Jay: I'm great. I'm great. It's, we had some crazy storms come through yesterday, but it's, you know, did you
get anything over there?
[00:00:45] Justin: Yeah. Yeah.
We had like some of like the proper lightning shooting across the sky and my six year old daughter, I didn't know how she was going to be. I don't know if she's really been in something that intense and she was like, it's so beautiful. And I was like, yes, exactly.
[00:00:58] Jay: I love that. My
daughter's like diving under the couch and stuff. She's not a, she's not the, the severe weather type, but, so you're over in Jersey now, where'd you grow up and like, did that have any impact on you being an entrepreneur?
[00:01:10] Justin: Oh, that's a good question. yeah. So, oh, I guess all good questions, right? this is your job here. so yeah, I grew up in South Jersey around like Woodstown area. So not too far from Philly. kind of a very rural area. you know, the big thing there was like, you know, they have a rodeo. It's like a really big
rodeo.
yes, exactly.
[00:01:28] Jay: We went last, a couple of weeks ago, we were at Cowtown.
[00:01:31] Justin: There you go. Yeah. We, I grew up with, a lot of the kids in the family that own that, the Harris family.
And, yeah, like Saturday nights, that's where we would go because that's where all the kids would be during the summer. And yeah, it's just an interesting kind of world as far as that kind of driving me towards entrepreneurship.
Honestly, man, it felt very unapproachable to me. all the way up until after college. I'd have to say, my, my mom and dad were both in education. and yeah, it wasn't something that I was really exposed to very much. so I was always interested in it and always kind of thinking like, man, that'd be really cool.
It just felt like something that I couldn't necessarily do. and I guess for no other reason than I just hadn't really seen it done.
[00:02:17] Jay: So what changed after college? What kind of got you into starting your own business?
[00:02:22] Justin: Probably just ambition in general. I, when I graduated, I started working for a government contractor doing. penetration testing, security assessments and things like that, for like, DoD federal government. And, I, it's kind of funny when I was in school, I, the last thing I wanted to do was write software for whatever reason.
I had this like stigma in my head. Like I didn't want anything to do with just writing code. It seemed so boring to me. I got a little bit exposed to that, like not in curriculum, but just while at school kind of started to get a little interested in it. And then when I was, working for that first job Telos.
I started building, writing scripts to automate what we were doing. Cause we would bring back like tons of like security scan data. And, we started writing scripts to, to use, to aggregate it basically. and then I kind of saw like, wow, I could write software. I could actually write software that would be useful.
And why can't I make something that could ultimately. be a product. And so from there, I started building products. and you know, I had no idea how to sell them. but I had some good ideas. And, you know, it was just, so yeah, we, me and, one of the guys that I worked with there, we build a product.
well, at first we called it how Chuck Norris uses Google HC nug. And, eventually we ended up calling groundwork. And so what it would do is, You know, you would set up filters and things like that,and various Google searches and it would kind of aggregate it all down and then you'd have alerts set.
So the idea was you could find, you know, information you didn't want to be posted on the Internet for your organization from a security perspective, right? Like, you know, people posting about like internal IP addresses or something like that. and, yeah. Yeah. So we had that product. It kind of worked.
You know, this is, this is probably back in 2005, 2006. but, yeah, we had no idea how to sell it. The only thing that we knew how to do was kind of build the software. We did actually, ironically, our only customer that we ended up getting was the Pentagon. the team that manages the firewalls there, they started using it for a little while.
And started to get some traction with those guys. And it seemed like we might be able to work, make it work. Had no idea how to really do it. but then at that time ended up getting a pretty big promotion and at my job. So I decided to kind of, to go that route, get that experience and then come back to the entrepreneurship.
But I think that was the spark. That, that made me realize, okay, I can do this. I just need to learn how to sell, which by the way, still working on that.
[00:04:50] Jay: We all are.
how did you guys, how did you guys land the Pentagon as a contract?
[00:04:55] Justin: Yeah. Well, so it wasn't even really a contract. I mean, I think, well, maybe we did have some type of paper in place, but, there was, there were some people that we worked with through the company that we were at that were, that were working on one of the teams over there. And they ended up using. they were interested in it for a couple reasons, it's kind of going down a rabbit hole, but, they're interested in the idea of using it to detect, to discover new malware, because we would go find these kind of like random corners of the internet, like the gray web or something like that, and use that, and then so then eventually we would like kind of like detonate, whatever kind of payloads in a VM, and then they would inspect it, Man, I don't even know how long that really lasted.
It was only a couple of months before I got this kind of pretty big promotion and then just decided to kind of, to shut the whole thing down, I guess. But yeah, it was interesting. It was the only reason we made that sales because we knew someone, you know, exactly in a position we talked to them about it and they were interested
[00:05:55] Jay: so I guess one other question about that time, do you, was looking back, was shelving that the right move at the time?
[00:06:07] Justin: with my skillset at the time. Yes. if. if. it was me now going back then, oh man, we had some pretty serious opportunity. Like there's a whole product space around that. Now, we actually use a product called flare,to do exactly that. we're really close with those guys. We provide a managed service to, to run that software.
It's kind of nostalgic seeing it and seeing something that's done significantly better than what we were doing at the time. But, man, I, yeah, I really wish I would have, pursued it. You know, we ended up talking to a VC also, which was something that we were, but I was very unprepared for. but it was kind of eyeopening.
And also, the thing I didn't realize was, you know, probably had to talk to somebody that really understood security and, the folks that we ended up talking to, they were like, why is everything you're talking about so negative? It's all about finding this bad stuff. Like, you know, it's just such a negative message.
And I'm
like. I hadn't even thought about that because the world that I was in was Here are the vulnerabilities we found and here's the way that an attacker could do this and watch this video of us getting from this server to this server and like, you know, that didn't even seem negative to me.
but yeah, like coming out of that. I definitely felt probably fairly defeated. just because it was a pretty hard no and yeah, I probably I would have done so much better going to, I mean, at the time there weren't a whole ton, a whole lot of these, but like incubator or something like that, like, man, if I had known about like YC, and could have potentially even gotten in at that point, that would have been, that would have been amazing.
And then it would have been a whole different direction. but I don't regret it. just because stepping back at the time I was. You know, doing a lot of legwork, like doing security work directly. And we were building these scripts, internally still for the company I work for. And those scripts eventually.
Became the way that everyone inside the organization was doing things,the way that they were doing things and, they, the company also sold software that kind of did it, but didn't do it well enough for the contractors. There's kind of two different use cases. There were people that doing it for themselves and then the contractors, what we were doing, and they ended up using the scripts that, that we had built.
And so there was this big like, come to Jesus. Town hall meeting, you know, like COOs running it and everybody's there. And they're like, why aren't we using the software we're selling? why are we using this stuff that this, that these guys are making, like, you know, on the side and, had a bunch of conversations and at the end of it, he's like, he turned to me and just asked, like, do you want to run our software division?
And I was like, Oh, It was an interesting kind of turn of events. and so I was like, well, yeah, you know, you say yes to something like that. And so I went from never having managed anybody to having, a pretty significantly sized team of developers, way more experienced than I. and I just, I had a feeling that was going to be a really good opportunity to learn and, you know, find out if this is something I want to do.
[00:09:03] Jay: Love that. So fast for me to, secure coders, where did that kind of come from? And I think there was another, something else too, something prop. What was the other business you founded? I guess maybe let's just go that way.
[00:09:14] Justin: Yeah. So,
[00:09:15] Jay: did you found after that big promotion? right.
[00:09:20] Justin: can skip along the various things that I did after that. so, my wife, we got pregnant, my wife was pregnant and, I was. I was doing that job and I was down in DC, man, every other week for like an entire week and I just didn't want to be living that life while my son was born and being raised.
so my wife also, she decided, she agreed that, it made sense for me to leave my job and go out and kind of do my own thing. Contracting was not the, an idea that was in my head at that point. I ended up, I was really focused on building like iOS apps because that was the fairly hot thing at the time.
So I built a couple of different apps. and you know, just would check to see, like, you know, just see if it started to catch a spark and if it didn't, I'd move on to the next one. one of the, one of the apps that did catch a little bit of momentum was. a social network for golfers called, I started, I called it social par.
And so basically you go find, you go create your profile. Here's how good or how bad I am at golf and where I am, my age. And you could find other people that wanted to play. So you could pair up with people that maybe had similar interests and similar abilities. And yeah, so got that out there and kind of like off to a pretty good start.
The interesting timing was, this was right when Facebook had first released their ads and I jumped on that for whatever reason. I found that and I was like, let's try this out. And at the time it was like super inexpensive. I think I was paying like, like pennies for a conversions, like by the.
Fast forward three months and it was like several dollars for a conversion. But, so I got this like very quick kind of. I don't know, like 40, 000 users or something like that. And I felt like it was going, and then it was just trying to figure out, okay, now how am I going to monetize this talking to golf courses?
Turns out they don't have money and long story short, ended up talking to, advertisers and like, you know, companies like Adidas that were into golf or Taylor made, they wanted to have like 40, 000 eyeballs a day. on whatever it is that you're putting ads and I was nowhere near that. 40, 000 users is not 40, 000 eyeballs a day.
So, so yeah, started to kind of back away from that. I talked to, one of the companies out there, golf match that was a competitor of mine. my tech was definitely a little bit better, but they had raised money and they had a lot of marketing stuff going. and we started chatting and kind of came to this kind of acquisition kind of plan, like where.
I would come on temporarily as CTO, help them get spun up with, some of the tech that I had built. help them build a team and, you know, he would keep raising money and try to see if we can make things work. And so I did that for a little while and, you know, it was kind of the same thing. It was just so hard to get people into these apps, right?
Building, building a functional piece of software is easy. getting people to use it as a whole different story, especially when you're talking, not on the business side, but you're talking about like, you know, like individuals out there looking to play golf. So, I stayed on as a contractor for that for a little while.
and then eventually kind of moved on to some other things and it would help them out from time to time, but they eventually got, acquired by Topgolf and so it was kind of like a soft landing type of situation, which is great because that team, they ended up, you know, getting excellent jobs.
I think pretty much all of them are still there. but yeah, so that was one of the things it was, I learned a lot with that for sure. and then a couple other random kind of projects along the way. And then eventually I was talking to, are you, do you know Bob Moore?
[00:12:58] Jay: Yeah.
[00:12:58] Justin: Yeah. Yeah. So, Bob Moore and I are pretty good friends and.
we ended up chatting, with, another guy, Adam Kearney, Bob had, when he was at RJ Metrics, they built this, this project during a hackathon. I think they called it Ballerboard, and it was pretty cool. So it would have, they, they had TVs around their office, but there was like nothing to put on them.
Right. You know, you see TVs in an office and maybe there's. A couple things up there, but for the most part, they weren't really very useful. And the idea was let's put some cool stuff up there to celebrate success. And so Bob, You know, gave a, gave us a little bit of money. and you know, we, Adam and I kind of went off and started building this thing.
So we took some of the hackathon ideas and a little bit of the code and build props and like, let's see if we can make this a thing, like where, you know, if I go push a commit. to like the main branch, then it pops up and it says, Justin made this commit and people can react in Slack. and when they do that, it pops up and plays gifts.
It was just really fun, integrate with Salesforce and stuff like that. and yeah, we, we had a bunch of customers, around the Philly area for sure. And then. Started to kind of branch out a little bit more. And then we got very distracted when Comcast started to bite. I remember we were sitting in our office space, which was what wasn't our office space.
We were sitting like in like a random corner of the RJ metrics office, like 11 o'clock at night, working on something. And all of a sudden, like our Slack starts exploding because we see all these. New users being created and they're all Comcast emails. And we're like, Oh my God, we just made it. And I like, this is great.
This is going to be huge. and yeah, we, we ended up chasing down that deal and we, you know, the lesson I learned with that is when you go to like a big enterprise of like that, we kind of had one person that was interested in purchasing it for his organization, and then he was. And we should have just said, yes, let's do it.
I don't care if it's 50 a month, let's just do it. Let's just get the deal on the books. but instead he was like, well, I can talk to my boss and see if other groups would be interested. and that just. Started this long timer, like where we had meeting after meeting. And then like, you know, all these folks around, Comcast had to kind of come to consensus to use the product.
and it just, it was just taking forever. there were a bunch of personal things going on at that time. and yeah, we just ran out of steam. We decided not to raise money for it, beyond like the initial seed funding that we got with Bob, So yeah, it was very sad to shut that down.
But, yeah, that, that was an interesting project. And then, so one of the things that kind of had happened along those, throughout that, you know, we had a little bit of funding, but it wasn't enough to really pay ourselves. And at that point,the cash of money that I had. Saved, you know, it wasn't a lot either.
when I was at my main job or my, my, my main job, my, my previous employer, was dwindling down to, I think I had like 9, 000 in the bank account, had like, Oh, like a one year old at the time, and it was like ticking down and I'm like, Oh man, I gotta go figure something out. I gotta make money. And so, yeah, I kind of was looking for some contract stuff, but when you're like, you know, when you need it, like right now, it's so hard to find something like that.
And I was like, I guess I
got to start interviewing for jobs. And second time I ever interviewed for a job, I interviewed with a company out in San Francisco, you know, got through the initial interviews and I was flown out there. And man, I clashed so hard with their VP of engineering. I don't know why.
I think it was, I wonder if it was me, sabotaging it just because I didn't really want a job, or maybe, maybe I was just too cocky or something like that, but that clearly wasn't going to work and then. Somehow, just like serendipity, kind of struck on the way back. I flew back, I'm driving back from the airport and one of my friends calls me.
He's like, Hey man, I'm really stuck with this, with this application, authentication system that I built. I decided to build it in Node. js and I had no idea what I'm doing and it's live and it's not working. Can you help? And I'm like, Oh yeah, absolutely. so there you go. I got my first contract customer.
and. Yeah, that's kind of what really ended up starting the secure coders would eventually came to be secure coders. and I would just pick up more contract work and it was just me never had the intention to go hire additional people. And at one point, I was one of my customers. They wanted to hire developer, in house and have me help, you know, kind of get them up to speed and eventually be someone that can run the software project.
So I hired this. This awesome developer, Charles Woolley, long story short, that company ended up running out of funding and they were going to have to let them go. And I was like, I'll take them. Like, I didn't have the work for him. I was like, I know this guy, he's amazing. I'll take them. Like, let's just make this thing work.
And then, so had to find work for him. And yeah, it just kind of went from there and, you know. That was probably about five years ago and now we're at 11 people. So we're still relatively small, but, and I kind of like it that way. I don't know how big I want to be. I think maybe 15 is the right size, where I can have a team of just like total like wizards and not have a lot of the bureaucracy, I don't know.
It's not an academic statement at all. It's just something in my head that, that seems to make sense.
[00:18:26] Jay: You gotta be where you're comfortable. that's a. That makes sense. also baller boards definitely sounds like something that would come out of an RJ metrics.
[00:18:35] Justin: Yeah.
[00:18:36] Jay: hackathon. I had Jake, I met Jacob,
Jake probably last year or something. so yeah, that makes sense. He's tracks with the RJmetrics, kind of, party boss they were running.
Yeah, for sure.
having a good time back then. so you, you mentioned
Yeah.
I, yeah, I mean, considering the YouTube video that he went kind of viral on, I think, did you see that the, I'm sure you saw that the, you didn't ever saw Jake's video? I'll have to send you the link. It's it's like a rap video he did about RJ metrics like
[00:19:03] Justin: oh, yeah. Yeah. I know. I
[00:19:04] Jay: yeah,
Yeah.
[00:19:05] Justin: he i've seen jake rap more than once at bob's wedding. he performed a rap. it
[00:19:10] Jay: performed a
rap. I like how, I, like how painfully you said the word performed as
[00:19:14] Justin: No, it was great. It was fantastic. It was fantastic
[00:19:18] Jay: so, so tell me about getting better at sales. What, I mean, you know, especially today, right? I mean, you've, been through some things, you've learned some lessons, but what are you doing today as a successful business owner to continue to drive? And I think we're all, not all, I would say a lot of entrepreneurs are introverts just naturally. you know, we're extroverts when we need to be, but how have you kind of pushed yourself past that comfort zone to actually get sales?
[00:19:53] Justin: Yeah, they It's the same thing as public speaking in my mind, where if you're very confident in what it is you're talking about, like I definitely introvert, by nature can be extroverted at times and it, but it seemed very forced to do the sales thing. and if you were to have me go sell, I don't know, like, like some, like SAP software, I think I would be terrified.
But if you want me to go sell, penetration, penetration testing services, I got that B roll. If you want me to go sell services to help, you know, secure software or review the secure of someone's code,I can do that in my sleep and I'm comfortable and I actually ended up having fun with it.
It just took kind of realizing I have to go sell the thing that I'm very confident in. you know, and in retrospect, maybe,golf social network is maybe not the thing, that I'm the most confident in, but you know, I understand the security thing inside and out. And yeah, that's what works for me is just being confident in it and feeling like I know I'm going to help this person.
you know, selling the snake oil stuff with it's I haven't gotten that one yet. I
[00:21:05] Jay: Yeah, I don't know if I don't know if genuine people ever get that one, you know, it's a I'm, I, feel exactly what you're saying. how are you doing sales and marketing today? How are you generating leads for secure coders?
[00:21:21] Justin: for the most, almost entirely. it's the word of mouth. recently we've been starting to get a lot of referrals in through like, VCs, a lot of our customers are startups. And so like, you know, whether we're doing, an interim, kind of executive security leadership kind of position or penetration testing, we end up kind of getting referrals that way.
A lot of the time, whether it's startup to startup, or sometimes the VC will say, well, here are the companies that we've seen, not very active in like, you know, outbound sales and something that I definitely want to get. Better at, but like marketing and sales, like in the sense of kind of reaching out is we're very, immature, I guess, in that regard, just because we've had enough work come in, luckily,
[00:22:08] Jay: Does that scare you at all? That, that most of the businesses referral, and I say that from a, you know, a personal, I'm not gonna say fear, but I mean, I love referrals, right? And I love that network, and I love that sort of thing. It just doesn't. Feel scalable and it does worry me when a lot of my businesses referral and I haven't and so I've been working in the past. Year or two to really kind of establish that outbound as much as I can. Right. I mean, we're
all kind of working on that. No, I think if anybody, unless you're like an enterprise level company, who's got it figured out, I think we're all just kind of trying to figure out how to do outbound properly for us specifically for our business. But does that, you know, is it a priority for you to get outbound marketing going? I mean, I know you said you've got enough business referral stuff, but are you afraid that's going to kind of run its course eventually? And you're going to have to bring in leads from somewhere else.
[00:23:04] Justin: What I, what we're currently doing now and like a new initiative is starting to, instead of, you know, hoping that those VCs, excuse me, refer down to us is building the relationships directly with them. So I would say it's kind of more like a channel kind of, at least that's the way that I see it is more like setting up channels.
the outbound marketing side, like, yeah, I wish I had something more scalable, but at the same time, you know, right now we kind of have the right amount of work for us. We can take a little bit more, sometimes we can have a little bit less and that's fine. but what kind of worries me a little bit is really kind of building, building too much funnel and now.
Now we're really scaling it to beyond the size of the business that I want to run. where we have like this, like kind of like really fun culture, very, small group of like super, super awesome and skilled people. maybe that's a very, a pretty wacky thing to say.
[00:24:04] Jay: No, I mean, I don't think it is. I mean, we're in a culture of, you know. Hypergrowth get to an equity event.
Oh my god. You got to grow. Oh my god You gotta go public and then everybody is constantly pissed off because you're not growing enough. It's just a weird Treadmill of you know, never ending growth that you're expected to be on as a business owner.
So I mean I think If you're happy as a business owner, whatever level you are, and you can maintain that and you maintain your lifestyle, like I said, you could spend time with your kids. You get to, you know, do other things. We talking about, you know, piloting before this, like you
can, there's, you can step away and not, you know, have to worry about the business exploding because you're not there just constantly throwing stuff in the fire.
I think that's fair. you know, I've hit those plateaus in my business where I felt comfortable now, me just personally. I get bored really quickly and I'm
like, okay, like, oh my God, like, let's, you know, let's, we were at 30 people. Let's go to 40. Let's go to 50. Let's go to 60. And it's like, but I've certainly get that feeling.
And I, it's more about the culture. Like you said, if you have that small core, cause we have a lot of contractors, so we still
have our main kind of core group of people. So we've been able to maintain kind of the internal culture that you're talking about, but
I don't think there's an answer for it.
I don't think it's like a. A right or a wrong, I think, whatever works for
[00:25:23] Justin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I would say that, throughout the last couple of years, cause it's not like we came to 11 people, like, you know, last year,been growing pretty regularly, but the, you know, I think I probably would have said the same thing about like five people's perfect.
and then you see an opportunity and then you take it and, you know, I can't kind of stop myself from doing that. So, you know, when that opportunity to grow comes, it's normally hard for me to resist. And like you said, I don't know if I'd say I end up getting bored, but I feel like, okay, well, this is an interesting challenge.
This is going to be hard. maybe this is something I should try. And then several weeks later, I'm like, oh man, what did I do? But that's the wheel that we're kind of running on, I guess.
[00:26:03] Jay: It's hard to say no to money brother
[00:26:05] Justin: it is.
[00:26:05] Jay: It's
somebody's like here's some money. Do you want it? You're like,i'm gonna pass you it's very hard to say that. All right. Well, let's wrap it with one. one more question non business related, Anything on earth, if you could do one thing and you knew you couldn't fail, what would it be? The silence is my favorite part of the show, by the way. It's this post question silence, that everybody has
[00:26:32] Justin: anything. And so not business related
[00:26:37] Jay: Bucket
list item, anything, you know, altruistic. I mean, anything that you, I've had some wildly different answers all over the spectrum.
[00:26:46] Justin: If I knew I couldn't fail, well, all right. I have a lot of ideas, but if I knew I couldn't fail aside from like buying a lottery ticket and then figuring out who I want to give the money to, like, you know, then I just do it again. And again, that sounds great. But, what I. And in this case failed, not being, not going to jail or rotting in a gulag somewhere,I would, I would probably go build a team of pretty sick hackers and go take down all these ransomware crews.
And as they pop up, I think it's, well, I don't think I, it's just, it's wild to me. how scary it's gotten recently. One of the things that's really kind of rubbed me the wrong way recently was, I think it was in Michigan or Minnesota, like one of the school districts got ransomware and, you know, nowadays, if you don't pay the ransom, they disclose the stuff, the information that they found.
And when they did that for this district, it was one of the biggest school districts and I think Minnesota, they disclosed like all the children's, kind of health records and, you know, like, just like a lot of it's like mental stuff. And you just think about how terrible that is. and I'm not somebody that's out there for vengeance most of the time, but that may that.
Yeah,I think if I got that free pass,I would go do something good like Vigilante style. That
[00:28:15] Jay: Vigilante style, hacker, yes. I love that. That is, I can tell you that's the first time I've gotten that answer. So,
you certainly win for most, unique. that was, that's a good answer. I do like that a lot. yeah, my buddy runs a Cyber security company, I'm saying some manufacturing company, 300 people ransomware, like their whole floor is kind of run by the computers and just like, they just have to shut down until they figure out what's going on.
People are out of work. They're losing 10 million a day. Like all this money is going, it's just like, it's a crazy, crazy thing. So, well I like, vigilante hacker that man sounds like a good. Online username. all right. How can people find you? How can they find a secure coders if they want to get in touch?
[00:29:00] Justin: Yeah. Secure coders. com and, you know, reach out through the site or you can hit me Justin at secure coders. you know, happy to help out with anything from a security. perspective, a lot of focus on software development. So, we're the majority of our team are software development, software developers, and hackers.
so not only do we understand how to break things, but we can give you. Reasonable, advice on how to move forward. So, you know, that's our MO.
[00:29:30] Jay: Beautiful. All right, man. Well, you're awesome, Justin. Thank you for being
on
[00:29:34] Justin: you're awesome, Jay. Thank you.
[00:29:36] Jay: nah, I,
I'm only as good as, I'm only as good as my guests. So, you were fantastic. And, let's go to cow town sometime.
[00:29:42] Justin: Yeah, man. Oh, we just, I just went for the first time in years, last year and it was so much fun,
[00:29:49] Jay: Yeah, we
went on national cowboy day, which we didn't know was a thing, a couple of weeks ago and it was. I've never, there's nowhere to sit. It was completely overflowing with people. It was incredible. so
[00:30:00] Justin: just good fun, man. It's a
good
[00:30:02] Jay: old American fun. The
longest running rodeo in America, I
think is their tagline.
So,
[00:30:08] Justin: you wouldn't think you're in New Jersey.
[00:30:09] Jay: No, you wouldn't. You feel like you're down where I'm from down in Virginia or something. Yeah, it's
a long way from,
[00:30:14] Justin: I didn't realize you were from down there. Cool.
[00:30:16] Jay: Yeah. I hide it pretty well. All right. I'll talk to you, buddy. Thanks for being on, man. I'll see you, Justin.
[00:30:21] Justin: All right. Thank you, ma'am. Later.
[00:30:22] Jay: Later, buddy.