[00:00:00] Jay: Hi everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name is Jay. I'm going to say I am lucky enough to be joined by Ryan Bouton. He is the co founder and CEO of Gatsby chocolate. Ryan, how are you, buddy?
Ryan: I'm doing well, man. How are you doing, Jay?
Jay: Good. I'm good. We were just catching up a little bit before the show. talk to your brother, founder of Halo top.
You were employee number one. you guys did the shark tank thing, which is how we're even connected together. But, I really want to talk about Gatsby chocolate. I want to talk about, you know, kind of starting a business and maybe siphoning some people out from a place you used to work and just [00:01:00] kind of talk about your experience so far.
So where did you grow up and did that have any impact on you being an entrepreneur?
Ryan: yeah. So I grew up in Virginia. I went to school in D. C. And I'd say the greatest impact it had on me being an entrepreneur is originally I wanted to be an actor, actually. that was my goal. My goal is to move to LA and get into TV and film acting. And that alone was very entrepreneurial in terms of, you know, you're hustling.
You're trying to get your own name out there. You're trying to build those connections. And so once I kind of made the transition from that career to Halo top and a more defined entrepreneurial route, it was I had that background, I had that experience of creating my own schedule and working for myself.
and that was really strong for me to rely on in the last 10 years or so that I've been in this business.
Jay: But you said you grew up in Virginia, and then you mentioned D. C. Whereas, I mean, you grew up in Northern Virginia, or did you grow up in Virginia? Because I'm from Virginia, and there's definitely a
Ryan: no way. Yeah. I'm from Virginia. I'm from, outside of Charlottesville, rural Virginia, a small town of, only about 10, 000 [00:02:00] people. It's called Rutgersville, Virginia.
Jay: Okay. Alright. I'm from, outside Williamsburg, which is probably, like, similar,backwoodedness,to where you grew
Ryan: yeah, well, Williamsburg was like our big like field trip that was like going to a big city or town. I look forward to it too. It was a great time down there.
Jay: Yeah, it's good. It's a lot. It was like the weirdest thing growing up near there. People would be so excited to come. We're like, this is like, you know, it's in our backyard. It wasn't that big of a deal, but, it was definitely bigger than where I grew up. So very cool. so tell me the Gatsby chocolate story.
you know, I know you, like I said, you were probably number one at halo, but like kind of did your thing there. Where did Gatsby come about? What is it? And you know, who are you guys targeting with this chocolate brand?
Ryan: Yeah, so Gatsby chocolate. It's the first ever low calorie chocolate. There actually is no low calorie chocolate on the market. And so coming from Halo top. I looked at the chocolate category and basically recognize that it was positioned exactly like ice cream was, right before Halo top began in that there was no product that checked off the low [00:03:00] calorie box and even the quote unquote healthier options that are out there, sugar free, et cetera, not only were high in calories, but the texture was off.
it wasn't very sweet. It didn't really deliver on that chocolate indulgent experience. So we figured. Hey, we can do the exact same thing to the chocolate category that we did to the ice cream category. If we can create a product that meets, that chocolate and delivers on that chocolate indulgent experience for the consumer, people will go nuts for it.
so that was the genesis of the idea of a sort of recognizing the opportunity in the market. And knowing that if we could develop a product, or chocolate bar that was low calorie and also tasted amazing, it could really take off.
Jay: I read a book recently, God, how stuff works or something. And it was talking about chocolate. And like, I don't think any, like the layman person really understands like the chemistry that goes behind, like. The processes and all the weird stuff that has to happen to make chocolate taste like it does.
Did you have to get really well versed in that whole [00:04:00] universe to kind of understand how to even, how to make it the way it's made today, but then how to make it in a way that's, you know, lower calorie and a little more healthy than the
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. It took us almost two full years of R and D before we actually brought the product to market. Because, and this is one thing I learned too, from being in ice cream and in chocolate, it's the fat and the sugar that delivers the consistency. and so once you've cut out the fat and the sugar, That consistency is going to be gone and you have to invent something totally new in the recipe to still deliver, on that consistency.
So, you know, for ice cream, for example, you cut out the fat and sugar, replace it with other sweeteners. Whatever it might be, the ice cream freezes super hard and you know, instead of a nice soft texture, it's just completely frozen. Same with chocolate, you cut out the fat and sugar, instead of that melt in the mouth sort of texture and consistency you want, you're used to, it gets really chalky, crumbly, et cetera.
so yeah. Diving into that is, has been a huge education, and it took us a long time to get the product to where we believed it was [00:05:00] actually ready to introduce to customers. Like I said, almost two full years of just working on the recipe.
Jay: And what did you learn from the Halo top shark tank kind of experience that you applied to the Gatsby?
Ryan: so we actually went on Shark Tank with Gatsby chocolate. we
Jay: Oh, Gatsby was on. Okay. So it wasn't Halo top. I thought it was the whole time. Okay. All right. So, wow.
Ryan: No. Yeah. Sorry.
Jay: now it's my fault. You're locked in. You're all right. Makes sense. Okay.
Ryan: Yeah. So we went on Shark Tank, this season actually last September with Gatsby chocolate. We've learned the reason we spent so much time on the product with Gatsby chocolate those two years and recipe developments because we learned with Halo Top. That's sort of how much time it takes to get the product there.
So when I joined Halo Top as the first employee in 2012 2013 It was nowhere near, the product that ended up being super successful and taking off around 2017. So that was about five years of R and D [00:06:00] with us already on shelves, changing the formula constantly, et cetera. So once we got the Gatsby chocolate, we knew we needed to dedicate that time initially before we got on the shelves.
To make sure the product was there and to avoid having to make all those recipe changes, which, you know, consumers notice that, and you got to communicate those to consumers. So having to do that isn't necessarily the best look, even though we are always working on the ingredients and recipe we knew with Gatsby chocolate, we wanted it to be closer to the final version once it reached shelves, compared to what we did with Halo top.
Jay: That's a really interesting point. I mean, if you know, the software world is all about, you know, iteration and constant change and agility and all this other stuff. Like, how do you. Deal with like, you know, if you get a bunch of customer feedback that. Some part of the product is not ideal.is it a big deal to go in and kind of re engineer some, you know, whether it's the physical packaging or whether it's the product taste or whether it's the texture, whether it's the, whatever, like, how do you take in [00:07:00] this feedback and then know that, you know, you've got enough of it that represents, you know, something you should change in your product.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, I'd say it's a lot of work, right? I wouldn't say. It's exciting to hear to be like, Oh, we got to go back to the drawing board on the packaging. We got to go back to the drawing board on the formula or the recipe. but for us, it is the most important thing because we want that product to actually deliver the experience to consumers that they want.
So a lot of times I feel like the healthier products out there in any of these categories that are better for you. They don't necessarily meet that expectation for the consumer where they're almost feeling like they're punishing themselves for eating healthy. They're eating an inferior product, but I got to eat this because like, I got to follow my diet.
We want to, that's not what we want from Gatsby chocolate. We want people eating it because it's delicious. And then secondarily, it also happens to be low calorie, low sugar. Basically, you know, you taste it. You can't believe that it's actually low calorie. And so we're not receiving that feedback from consumers.
If we're not getting that response. That's just an alarm to us to get back to work [00:08:00] on the product and the recipe and the packaging and even though Sure, it sucks. You know, you put in all your time and effort you thought it through for so long You thought you had it you get that feedback and it's like, oh shucks But for us if we're not getting there with the product, we don't have anything to begin with That's the whole point.
So if consumers aren't giving us that response, why are we even doing this? We have to get the product there first. And once we do get that response And we have gotten there with Gatsby Taclo, especially the response is phenomenal from people who tried. It's like, okay, that gives us confidence now that we are onto something that If we're meeting and getting that feedback from consumers, that means we can continue to build on what we have.
so it's kind of like a mindset thing. like I said, it's not all, not always fun to have to go back to the drawing board and redo it and redo work. But as long as you sort of see the path that you're on and understand your goals for us, the product, like making sure the product is exceptional. well, that means we got to work on the product until we hear that feedback.
If we're not hearing it already, then we got to do some extra work on it and get it [00:09:00] there.
Jay: I love that. so what, tell me about your shark tank experience then. you know, you don't have to go through everything, but just what were some of the highlights and what did you kind of take away from it? You know, I mean, I've heard lots of different things, obviously, you know, I didn't know that you had to create your own set when you went out there and there's like all sorts of like little things that, you know, you don't know
about if you don't, talk to somebody that's been on the show.
But what are some of the highlights for you guys there? And what was, like I said, what was the biggest takeaway?
Ryan: Yeah. And I'd say some of the highlights, again, I might sound like a broken record already, but the sampling of the sharks, being able to have them try the product there in the room and get such a positive response on how incredible it tasted, how the texture was, et cetera, even having Mr. Wonderful say nice things about the product.
for me, that's just like. The triggers in my mind of like, okay, there we've got something here with the product. If we can get the word out, you know, people really do love it. That was an absolute highlight. otherwise it's also just a blast, to be able to go in there with something that you've built, that you've grown.
that's your baby to actually be able [00:10:00] to present it to people of that magnitude. if you're lucky enough to air to be able to present it to the audience and the viewership, And that's incredible from a small business perspective. And me, you know, I'm not an influencer. I'm not a famous celebrity, so I don't really have a platform.
I can't get the word out there like that to share it with millions of people. So to get an opportunity to actually share something that I built and poured so much into to finally present that, sort of to the audience. Honestly, that was by far the biggest highlight and the best, coolest part.
Jay: so. I'm assuming that you probably have a couple. Or maybe multiple types of customers, right? You actually have your actual end user customer who like buys this thing off the shelf somewhere, but you also have like, you know, the Walmart to the world or the distributors that you sell to, you know, talk to me about how you got your first customer and whatever flavor, you know, no pun intended, that you could kind of share, who, who was the first one to actually pay for this, chocolate, you know, as [00:11:00] a consumer.
And then who, how did you start going after these other places? Are you selling other places? You just sound online. Like, how are you trying to move the product?
Ryan: Yeah. You know, you hit the nail on the head. We actually do sort of have two different customers if you think about it. So we're sold in retail right now. which means a customer theater in theory for Gatsby chocolate would be Kroger would be Walmart would be Safeway. now obviously it's also our job to move the product off the shelf.
So that sort of downstream is also our responsibility and our customer too. With Gatsby. The first part of it was actually easy. I will say because we were coming from Halo top. So we had a network of retailer relationships for that customer. at Halo top, it was a different story. That was a huge challenge of us to actually get the retailer as the customer and make those connections, meet those people and get us on shelves.
The Gatsby, that part was easy. and to be honest with you, we thought the next part would be easy too, which was moving it off shelves. We basically thought, Hey, if we just throw up this product on the shelves, it's going to fly. and that's where [00:12:00] we really underestimated brand awareness, and how to reach that consumer.
and understand that it's our responsibility to reach that consumer and get it off the shelves because the retailer is not going to do that for you. so our first Retail customer with Gatsby was actually Kroger. we kind of did a soft launch with them in 2021 or 2022. but I would say because we underestimated sort of that downstream part of it, who that consumer was that would actually be buying it off the shelves, it really wasn't a very successful launch for us.
and we didn't end up having a lot of success with Kroger. And that's one of those examples. We had to go back to the drawing board and say, Hey, you know, we got nationwide distribution at Kroger. Every company in the world is supposed to be celebrating and going nuts for that. But it quickly. Wasn't successful because we didn't have that consumer to actually move it off the shelves.
And so we had to do a lot more research and understanding of, Hey, how are we going to generate that awareness and reach that person to actually get them to go into the store and buy a bar because we're not sold online, [00:13:00] too expensive to, sell the chocolate online. And that becomes, you know, a bigger issue.
People are busy in their lives. It's really hard, especially as you're a brand awareness to say, Hey, take time out of your day to go visit some store and find us on shelves and buy a bar. Sounds simple, but I'm 33 with kids now. And you know, it would actually take a lot for me to do that. And I'm not just going to randomly see like a Facebook ad or something, unless it is.
It's incredible. so that was sort of our journey with our first consumer, first customer, our retail partner. our soft launch wasn't quite as successful as we wanted it to be. We went on shark tank soon after that launch. And then we launched nationwide with Walmart, and we've had a lot more success there as we sort of tried to reach that consumer on the shelves a lot more.
Jay: And what did you guys do? I mean, what was your kind of, uh, course correction? Like, what were your actual things you did when you realized the soft launch didn't go the way that you wanted? I mean, you did these other things, obviously [00:14:00] that gives you brand awareness, being on Shark Tank and these other things, but what about the packaging or the product itself?
What did you guys change to make it more attractive?
Ryan: Yep. So we actually did two things. The packaging that we initially launched with, it's very different from the packaging that you'll see. Now, the packaging that we initially launched with was, looked like a Gatsby tuxedo was black, had the buttons, had the bow tie, et cetera. We thought it was amazing and don't get me wrong.
I'm proud of it. but it was very masculine. and it didn't necessarily stand out on the shelf in the category either, where it blended right in with all the other chocolate bars. So we evaluated that and decided, Hey, that needed to change. We made it a lot more colorful. We got rid of the, we kept the bow tie logo, but we got rid of the tuxedo.
the colors, et cetera, spoke a lot more to the female consumer. and then also stood out a lot more next to the other chocolate bars on the shelf. We also did do, a little bit of a recipe tweak, sort of what I was talking about earlier to make the chocolate a lot more creamier. and then we changed up our strategy a bit, to be [00:15:00] honest, we, when we initially launched, again, coming from Halo top, we had gained that brand awareness, so we just thought we had to put something out there.
Like people respond to it. so, you know, we had our website and everything with that Kroger launch and we, Had a lot of our digital marketing tactics and ads that we were doing in the later stages of Halo top. and we realized, well, that's not working because that was working at halo top because we had gained all that brand awareness, but this digital, these digital marketing tactics aren't going to work for us until we gain that, brand awareness with Gatsby.
So that's where we shifted our strategies to focus more on awareness, obviously shark tanks. A massive awareness, play, but you can do other things like work with influencers and bigger partnerships. and that sounds, you know, obvious and everyone's doing it and this and that but Again, it's something we did miss and kind of underestimate was that we need other people getting the word out for us That we exist because once people once that consumer hears about us from a trustworthy source Then they're more willing to go to the store and get us off the shelves That source, what we've learned, us just being [00:16:00] that source and our Facebook ad or our Instagram post isn't quite enough.
We needed more partners in there who were willing to help us spread the word in that, so. All of that combined, sort of into a new strategy of the last six months or so. and it's been a lot more successful for us.
Jay: So what's next? I mean, it sounds like you're honing in on your customer, maybe a little more not female focused, but aware of them as a consumer. Like, uh, are you guys continuing to hone who you're going after? Are you continuing to You know, try different marketing things, or you just kind of, you've made some changes and you're going to let those bake for a while.
Like what's the, what's next for you guys, whether it's, you know, when it comes to client acquisition or, you know, packaging or whatever, what's next, what's the big thing on the roadmap
Ryan: yeah, I would say constant iteration on the marketing front on it, on the acquisition front, especially in today's age, these, social platforms, everything changes so fast, that we just kinda almost on a week to week basis are just on top of it, of how to generate that awareness and how to get [00:17:00] the word out.
if we can establish ourselves at Walmart. We add the production capacity, and flavor and product profile to expand extremely quickly. so once retailers see that demand, which would happen from having great success at Walmart, hopefully we can expand, you know, back to the Kroger's back to Safeway, et cetera, and be flying off the shelves.
There. so that's our main goal. we keep growing with Walmart. We should generate enough success and awareness there to expand other retailers. And we have the infrastructure set up to do that quickly. which is an important piece because again, coming from Halo top where we did grow rapidly and very fast, we didn't necessarily have the production capacity and supply chain, to meet that expansion.
With Gatsby, thanks to that experience. We have that all set up. so we're sort of ready for that explosive moment. we're still hustling really hard to create it though.
Jay: That's awesome. what, what are you guys using for, any tools with [00:18:00] marketing? Like, are you kind of a traditional marketing avenue or are you doing things with like anything cutting edge? Or, I mean, I don't want to use the word AI and chocolate in the same thing because, you know, we're already saturated with AI and you can't get enough chocolate, so I don't want to ruin how great chocolate is, but what are you guys doing tools wise?
Like, is there any, anything you guys are kind of doing that's different than maybe somebody you did for halo, but it wasn't available then.
Ryan: Yeah. you know what, to be honest, tools wise. It's almost like what we first tried to do with Kroger is that's where we got really focused is on all the software and all the tools, digital marketing, et cetera. And I think those funnels work really well, especially if you have that e commerce arm.
we didn't have that e commerce arm. And so using those tactics, softwares, et cetera. It really wasn't generating much success for us to reach the consumer who was going to go to the store and get us off shelves. So in a weird way, we almost went backwards. or we went back to the drawing board. And now, instead of using all those tools or [00:19:00] outsourcing our marketing work to agencies, et cetera,to do that outreach for us, I'm just doing it myself.
and my brother and our other team member, there's only three of us and we just took everything in house and just said, look, most companies, they don't want, the founder doesn't want to do customer service. He doesn't want to Instagram or he or she doesn't want to answer Instagram DMs, et cetera. We said, let's differentiate ourselves that way.
so if you DM Gatsby chocolate, you're going to get a response from me. If you email info at dojo brands. com, which is our customer service channel, you're going to get a response from me. If you see our email marketing and send a reply, you're going to get a response from me. and as far as outreach goes and tactics, that's all driven and led by me too.
So we do work with a ton of influencers, and that's pretty much our most successful tactic. All of those relationships, all that communication, the coordination, shipping the product. My brother literally packages boxes in his garage for hours a day and ships those out himself. So, yeah, in a weird way, we [00:20:00] really kind of went backwards and brought everything back in house, got right back to our roots.
I would say, you know what, we're back in that garage, like Steve jobs, making apple, just out of someone's garage. and Doug is literally in his garage. So. We're not too heavily focused on things like software, et cetera, right now at this moment, again, if we can grow, I do 100 percent see the value in there.
we're just not quite there as a brand and sort of accepting, admitting that, allowed us to conserve not only capital, but, allocate our time in a different way that's made a bigger impact.
Jay: No, I love that. I mean, I think a lot of companies have some success and then, uh, you know, push that work downstream, but it sounds like being laser focused on it may be the mechanism for you guys to break through that, that
next, next sealant. So that's pretty cool, man. can you share any of the magic with us?
How did you guys, you know, obviously you can't tell me your formula, but, how did you guys replace the things that are Not so good for [00:21:00] us, but things that are maybe a little better for us, when it comes to chocolate,
Ryan: Yeah. The main thing, like I said, when you want to cut out fat and sugar, it hurts the consistency of the product. So you got to find if you're going to cut out sugar, right? What's the sweetener going to be? so we use allulose, it's a naturally occurring sweetener. It's found in things like figs and raisins.
the most important thing is it has zero calories. so replacing sugar with something like allulose, that alone is a really popular thing. Now, it's not as simple as, okay, now you swap that ingredient and it's good to go. You need to find the right ratio, in the quote unquote recipe. so that's where the tactics become, or the R& D becomes, fun because whether it's allulose or whatever the sweetener might be, you start to play with those to see, all right, well, we use allulose here, we use stevia here, you know, let's test the difference in consistency.
same thing with fat. We cut out all the fat in the chocolate. by using a different ingredient, it was, it's a new ingredient. Actually, it was approved by the FDA, I think in 2020. [00:22:00] So, you know, not a lot of people are using that yet. it's something we were able to get our hands on and spend all that time in R and D, sort of iterating on the product.
So we cut out a lot of the fat and the sugar. We replaced it with things like allulose, things like stevia.and that really allows us to maintain the taste and texture. But most importantly, all of those ingredients have zero caloric value. so that's where the massive drop in calories comes from,
Jay: how much chocolate did you eat over those two years? It had to just be like a
ton, right?
Ryan: I mean, to you, it's still, it's ongoing at this point. If you, if I could turn my laptop around, you're gonna see a bar, a box of bars behind me. I eat one of those things a day. It's all coming from Halo Top. I went from eating a pint of ice cream a day to a chocolate bar a day. I mean, it's been, yeah, I can't complain about that.
I, all those perks of the job.
Jay: Yeah, no, I love that. I'm going to have to try this. I have not tried a Gatsby yet. I'm going to have to,
Ryan: I really, I know that one's my fault. I screwed up. I can't believe I didn't get you Gatsby before we're doing this. But don't worry, I'll [00:23:00] ship it to you right
Jay: All right. All right Then we got a deal. Then I will air this episode. I was going to not air it, but now
Ryan: you go.
Jay: Chopper,
Ryan: Yeah, you're asking about the tactics, that's it. I bribe people with chocolate, I bribe people with ice cream.
Jay: mean, it's hard to, you know, think that wouldn't work. All right. I got one more question for you. A non business related just about Ryan, the entrepreneur, and dad and just human being. If you could do anything on earth and he knew you wouldn't fail, what would it be?
Ryan: I would be, you know, you might not get this answer a lot, but I would be on stage doing theater, right now. I really would be, I really, Something about that I love. And every time I tell people about that background, and then the fact that I'm in chocolate and ice cream and CPG and entrepreneur, they're like, what?
That doesn't make any sense at all. but it is, it's the honest answer. And that's
Jay: gotten that answer. You're right. I haven't gotten that answer before.
Ryan: wouldn't imagine, but that's outside of what I'm doing. I don't want to like, I don't love, and I'm not super, super grateful for the job that I do [00:24:00] have now. this has been some of the most fun I've ever had in my life as well.
But if I had to do something else. And I knew I wouldn't fail. I would be doing theater.
Jay: I love that answer very much. I actually had a guy on last week who runs a very successful tech company that like was a hardcore theater actor until he was in college and now he just does tech stuff. So it's like, you never really know
where it comes, where it goes. That's cool, man. That's, I love it.
all right. If you want to find more about Gatsby chocolate or even reach out to you, Ryan, other than the, customer service channels, how do they do that? Well,
Ryan: Gatsbychocolate. com. We're at Gatsbychocolate on our social media channels. My email is ryan. dojobrands. com. Hit me up anytime. I really do reply to everything.
Jay: you're a very cool guy. I love the story. I love the iteration of the product. I think there's some good stuff in here today. So, check out Gatsby chocolate, check out Ryan and, Ryan, enjoy the rest of your week, brother. It was great talking to you. I'll talk to you again soon. All right.[00:25:00]
Ryan: Likewise. Thanks, Jay.
Jay: Thanks, Ryan.