[00:00:27] Jay: Hi everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name is Jay Aigner today I am lucky enough to be joined by Edward DuCoin. He is from Southern Jersey. He's the founding, founder and partner at, Orpical, which actually has a meeting for all those letters. I didn't know that until I was doing my homework for the show.
Ed, how you doing, man? Nice. Nice to see you.
[00:00:44] Edward: Thanks, Jay. I'm doing great.
[00:00:45] Jay: doing great, you know, with the asterisk of
[00:00:47] Edward: being an Eagles fan after, we saw what we saw yesterday, but Eagles
[00:00:51] Jay: too much time crying.
[00:00:52] Edward: Eagles lose in a lot of snow. I just, you know,
[00:00:56] Jay: Well, I tell you what, the, you know, the only silver lining this weekend, was that the Cowboys lost too. So that was a good, you know, balance there for us. all right. So where are you from originally? And did that have any impact on you being, this kind of, you know, serial entrepreneur later in life,
[00:01:10] Edward: South Jersey. They won't let me leave. literally lived in South Jersey my entire life. I mean, I love living here. You know, we've got Philadelphia, we get to the Jersey shore. So you get the ocean, you get to the mountains, you get to New York. so I've always been here and geography didn't have anything to do with being an entrepreneur, but, you know, growing up, it sure did.
I mean, I was the youngest of six, but by far. my brother, who's number five is seven years older than me and, you know, being raised in a home where I had older siblings, but they were basically out of the home. And then, you know, my parents had financial issues like many, you know, middle class families do.
actually it was not too long ago. maybe like 10 years ago now, but that I realized that like, I used to think my parents were so cool when I was younger because once or twice a month we'd have pancakes for dinner, you know? And I was like, that's pretty, that's awesome. You know, we're having pancakes for dinner.
And then I realized literally it hit me one day. It's like. Oh, we had pancakes for dinner. Cause that's all we had to have for dinner till my dad or mom got paid.
so that my entrepreneurial spirit started very young because I kind of observed things that I saw a struggle that I was hoping not to have.
[00:02:22] Jay: Okay. I love the pancakes for dinner story. I think we may be all at least the middle class, you know, families can kind of associate with some sort of thing that made you go, Oh, wait, we weren't exactly 100%. fine all the time, even though our parents never really let us know that, which as parents now, I can definitely sympathize with and, you know, keep the family and the finances separate and they, you know, are happy little kids and don't know anything about, you know, you know, the bank account, even though they ask, which is weird.
I'm like, that's none of your business. which I think my parents told me that too. what was the first real business you tried to start?
[00:02:54] Edward: Well, I mean, it's a silly, but it's not silly. I mean, I legitimately started a business when I was 13 running a steak ski tours company out of Audubon high school in Southern New Jersey. I mean, it was a legitimate business. it was a way for me to ski for free. And then when I was 14, we took like seven or eight buses and I made a few hundred dollars, whatever I made.
And then when I was 15, I went to MCA travel at his little travel agency and walked in as this kid. And got a desk at a travel agency. So that business grew, the good news and bad news is my big business started when I was 18 years old. you know, it was literally a 16, 17 year overnight success.
we were, you know, we were so naive that. You know, twice and not just once, but twice my accountant sat down with me and said, you realize you guys are bankrupt, right? Like you realize you can't continue. I was like, yeah, well, you know, and so we overcame that. So I've had, multiple startups, some tremendous success, some epic failures.
And it's funny,the razor thin line between how people define success and failure is pretty, pretty amazing when you experience it.
[00:04:05] Jay: And how would you define that? That's a great point. How would you define success and failure? Transcription
[00:04:12] Edward: well, not the way most people would define it. Once you have lived in the world of entrepreneurialism, you know, the tangible nature of finance, you know, revenue margins, fancy cars. Big time retirement savings. That's all nice and important. but part of the success is I think, and as I've matured and gotten older, I have different, not values, but different definitions of success.
Like when I was in my twenties, it was, I wanted a Learjet. Okay. I wanted an Audi and a Mercedes, and frankly, I had them. and that was great. and, But the nice thing about maturity is that it ends up becoming even more.
And so like today, what's more for me is seeing my partner be successful and, having people within the company be able to save for their kids college.
so success is definitely different. However, there, there is a. There's a such a fine line when it comes to success. for example, one of my, one of my epic failures, came down to a person getting, it came down to three days, four days and a person getting, food poisoning because it was a company named avid learn.
It was a learning management system. It was a technology company back in 2001. That's part of the story, in 2001, offered a million dollars for the business plan. and what we were doing went to a major law firm in San Francisco that wanted to get more in the technology space and wanted to use our learning platform to work with their lawyers and then other lawyers for development and things like that.
I promise you I was doing cartwheels down California Avenue. I mean, I literally did a cartwheel down California Avenue. The bummer is I went there, we signed the documents, but all the partners had to sign. One partner was out for, he had, food poisoning. No problem. We all signed. He says, we'll get them to sign Monday or Tuesday, and we will FedEx you the documents.
Wednesday rolls around nothing. Thursday rolls around nothing. And that's when the crash of the NASDAQ happened, while I was waiting. And everything shut down. And I got a phone call that week saying we've put the deal on hold and it never came back. Had that gentleman not had food poisoning, you know, but that's okay.
You know, that's okay. Because those things, it's just the opposite. I mean, the time that I was at,at a trade show in Orlando, Florida with my prior company, we got large because we were teleservices company. It started in my bedroom with exactly 102. My, my bio says 500 cause. It's easier, but it really was 102.
I still have the receipt, for an answer machine and a telephone. I took that business from a bedroom to where we had. Over 1500 people on staff and call centers throughout the country. So I was at a trade show in Orlando and it was the last day, the last hour, everybody's packing up and I'm exhausted.
I'm like, you know, I'm just gonna sit here for a few minutes. And this woman comes walking down the hallway and. You know, not being disrespectful, but she was dressed like she was a farmer. you know, very professional, but just like a farmer, like type of dress you might see, if a farmer's spouse or whoever went to church or a business event.
it didn't look like a traditional business suit, let's put it that way. So we got talking. Turns out she was solely responsible for doling out about a half million dollars of grant money. For the state of North Dakota, fast forward about 9, 10 months later, we're opening a call center in North Dakota where they actually paid us to open
[00:08:12] Jay: that.
[00:08:13] Edward: If I didn't have that meeting, if that relationship didn't happen, I don't see a path that we go public. and so just like food poisoning is a negative,
this woman, me not packing up. There was, I remember today, there was like something like, ah, I should be packing up, but I just don't want to.
Well, who was telling me to sit there and wait for this woman? and it was life changing. So It It is what it is. I mean, I know unbelievably financially successful people that can't manage themselves out of a paper bag. You know, it kind of helps when you're, your mom's best friend is Mark Zuckerberg's mom,
[00:08:52] Jay: Right.
[00:08:53] Edward: and then you get to put the money in and then you get inside thing.
I mean, I'm not going to use a name or be specific, but I, you know, particular person I'm thinking about that, you know, he would probably have a challenging life if he was, an insurance. Adjuster or a sales, a car salesperson, but worth a hundred million now, you know, so who really is more successful, you know, that person that, you know, walked into something or the person that tries and it doesn't work out.
[00:09:26] Jay: Yeah. And I think,I think people don't give timing and luck there. It's due for a lot of things with successful businesses. I mean, like you said, why did you sit there for another five minutes? Or why did your, you know, partner at the time eat whatever he ate to get food? Put like, who knows, like, there's no rhyme or reason to it. something you said there though, that it is interesting. if you had to boil down all your businesses, And there was some sort of blueprint or some sort of steps or some sort of framework, what would that be for, you know, starting a business, growing it, and then either exiting or just kind of going into that, you know, perpetual, you know, growth mode that you can kind of sit back and enjoy the fruits of your labor.
Like, is there something common between all the businesses you started,
[00:10:16] Edward: All right. starting a business, you need, You either need a plan that's been proven that you hope to model. And before we started, we talked about a little bit of the difference between a business owner and entrepreneur. And I have very strong feelings about that. So that's more of a business owner and entrepreneur.
You're more innovative.
Being, being a little naive is helpful, a little, not a lot, a little, because everybody who has accomplished anything was pretty much told it wasn't achievable, you know, and then once it's proven to be achievable, it's like, ah, okay, other people can now think they can do it. So being a little naive in the early stages, understanding the amount of effort, time, capital, energy.
not only that it takes, but it takes from is, not understood by what I call them want to be entrepreneurs. in the next stage of growth, by far and away, complimentary and exceptional team. my most successful. Businesses have always been with partners that are just exceptional, you know, I'm very fortunate right now to work with, my partner at Orbical, my brother, who was my partner for 17 years with the teleservices company.
I mean, we, in both cases, it's definitely a 1 plus 1 equals not even 2. 5, but I believe 3. and honestly, I would be a point eight if I didn't have that. So it's a multiplication factor. And then the growth you've, so we've started about the inspiration of the start and then the growth and then the real hockey sticker expansion, things have to be proceduralized so that they're measurable.
A lot of people think that. if you procedure everything out, you can't be in, they can't be creative, you can't be innovative, nothing to be further from the truth. It's just the opposite if you know what's supposed to happen and when, and then you can measure it. Now, you don't have to worry about the chaos.
[00:12:19] Jay: right?
[00:12:20] Edward: I mean, like most, there's no way to quantify this, but if, you know, maybe in your world are certainly listeners, Businesses make mistakes every day, you know, they do and yeah, even airlines make mistakes every day, but, and I don't recall the number off the top of my head, but it was like 0.
0001 error rate, like nine jumbo jets would crash a day, you know, so somehow they're able to do that right. And you need to have a replicatable system when you walk into McDonald's, the fries are on the left, the fries are by the drive through. You know, there's rhyming reasons for that, and that's why An organization like McDonald's has just, multiplied its growth and multiplied its offerings, some with tremendous failure, but because they've got that consistency.
So, innovation, hard work in the beginning, great team members and partners in the middle, and then procedures so you can rely on them, measure them and change them to let you truly innovate.
[00:13:28] Jay: Love that. So tell me about Oracle. what is it? I think it's like a holding company with a bunch of other, is it multiple companies? what is Oracle?
[00:13:37] Edward: Well, Orbical started, out of a frustration. Orbical, each letter does stand for something. I was actually on the New Jersey Turnpike stuck in a traffic jam. I had a business partner who was doing all kinds of nasty things and many issues took place. And so I literally made a list, Of items, you know, I wanted some, I wanted to work with somebody who was loyal.
That's the L. I wanted to work with somebody who, you know, respectful. And I'm not just saying partner, I'm taking, I'm talking the whole breadth. Clients, employees or team members as I prefer, vendors, everybody, you know, O optimistic. And I had all these jumbled around. And so each letter of Orbical stands for something.
Orbical started as a, Website design and development firm. I had basically had a bad breakup with a partner and, just decided to get back to my entrepreneurial roots and get into marketing. but it quickly became much more. We morphed into as we defined ourselves as a business consulting firm disguised as a marketing agency and because we asked as Just different questions, and we get really deep with a client.
Yeah, I was like, well, why do you even need a website? You know, can you afford the marketing to support it? and dozens, if not hundreds of conversations that can come up just from that one point. And then by having those questions. And I will give this 100 percent to my partner, my team. We started to get into really deep bed with some of these clients.
Hey, can you guys develop software for us? Can you automate this marketing system? Can you help us manage these operational? So now we've morphed into a software development agency that Emphasizes marketing and is perceived as a business consulting firm because we don't nobody wants to hire consultants.
however, we are one thing I'm really proud of is we're always trying to stay ahead of the curve. And I'll tell you, artificial intelligence is changing everything. And I believe that for the average agency software development firm out there, we are way ahead of the curve in using AI. and now we're it.
Not just pulling AI in. See, here's what I think is cool is we're not just pulling AI in and using it because then we just be frankly a business owner and thank God for business owners. But if you really want to be an entrepreneur and you really want to innovate, we're pulling AI in and saying, wait, what effect is that going to have on companies and their personnel and their productivity?
And blah, blah, blah. So we're not just looking at developing software. I feel our company could actually have not a performance coach because frankly, there are a dime a dozen and you can go to a franchise expo and become a performance coach just by the dime franchise. I want to have a PhD on staff that does human development, you know, not a PhD person's better or worse, but just having that level of.
Personnel is like you would think a software firm would have the top tech developers.
[00:16:51] Jay: right.
[00:16:52] Edward: We believe that if you have the top tech developers and you're enabling your clients to dramatically grow, potentially cutting operations, altering how you utilize your time. Well, we need to look into that because if we're creating that whatever vacuum opportunity, whatever you want to call it, we can't just create it and say, Oh, let's not worry about it.
We see that's like an unbelievable opportunity. And if you were to tell me 18 months ago that I would be saying that to you right now, I'd say you're insane. And that's what gets us very excited. Craigslist.
[00:17:28] Jay: who was the 1st customer for after your traffic jam on the Pennsylvania turnpike or the Jersey turnpike? Craigslist? Wow.
[00:17:38] Edward: not? Why not? we stuck something up on Craigslist and, you know what? It's funny as hell. I mean, we laugh about it today, but some guy answered the ad. We met with him. I think the first month's billing was a couple thousand dollars. And the most important thing about that was that led to a relationship that led to a relationship.
That we can track back to that very first Craigslist ad of a client that we're working with now, 10 years later that, you know, we've just exponentially grown with, so yeah, that's the first customer from an Orpical’s perspective.
[00:18:18] Jay: yeah, I mean, it's not as crazy as it maybe sounds just because of the, I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. And I love that you, like, found somebody on Craigslist and that's how you guys got kicked off and, it is about relationships though. at the end of the day, right? I mean, it's about I have a lot of agency on our friends that asked me, you know, about their ICP and customer persona and all this stuff and where should I be going?
Who should I be talking to? And it's like, at the end of the day, you just got to talk to your customers, right? You got to find them and you got to talk to them and you got to engage them and you got to get them to trust you. And then you have a relationship and maybe they're not ready to buy right now, but when they are, you'll be the guy that they think of.
Right? I mean, that's, it's not rocket science, but it's a grind. I think for a lot of people that they don't want to put the time into and they want the. Easy button, which like you said, that's why not only is their performance goes to coaches that I'm a dozen, but so are the, you know, we'll give you a thousand leads a month, you know, for a thousand bucks, you know, that kind of thing. so people want the easy button and I think to your point there, it's about relationships, which you can start however you want to start, but it's about getting to those people and kind of growing those relationships from there. Tell me about the race car thing. I do wanna hear about that. what, where did that fit in?
What do you, you know, where, what time was that in your life? and you know, what, do you do anything with that now?
[00:19:34] Edward: That's funny, you know, when I was a kid, bumper cars don't hit me. I just wanted to go around in circle. You know, I wanted to go around in circles and see how fast I could do my laps. I mean, I distinctly remember that being, you know, eight, nine years old, however old it was. and it was a glorious day when I was tall enough to get on the go-karts down at the Jersey shore.
but I kind of got away from it just because. You know, if you don't grow up in that sport, you have no connections to the sport. But I went to a NASCAR race. Actually, this is kind of embarrassing to say in some respects based on looking back. But, I gotta do the math. It's scary. But like 20, 25, 26 years ago, I went to a NASCAR race at Dover, Delaware, and they were doing the parade lap.
It's a parade lap. They're warming up the cars, warming up the tires, and they're on the back side. And we're, you know, on the main, you know, start, finish line area. And I said to my buddy, I'm going to do this professionally one day. I mean, the fighter jet flew over and it was just
[00:20:28] Jay: Oh, yeah.
[00:20:29] Edward: and the guys behind us heard it because they're on the back, you know, the cars on the backside.
So it wasn't super loud. And the guy laughed. He says, you're too old, man. There's no way you're going to do this pro. And my buddy said, Oh, you have no idea who you just said that to. And, I enrolled in, Buck Baker racing school in, North Carolina. that summer it was a five day racing school. 10 sessions, maybe nine sessions.
I think Friday afternoon wasn't a session. So Monday morning, Monday afternoon, Tuesday morning, Tuesday afternoon, nine sessions, he comes to me after lunch, Buck Baker, who's a famous, well, you know, he was very famous, but he was much older at that time. So it was, an older driver, came to me and said, son.
If you go home right now, we'll refund you your full tuition because you're going to kill yourself or kill some, kill yourself or kill somebody else. like the problem was it was two of an advanced school. It would be like the first day you're going to ski school, you don't go on the bunny slope, you go on the expert run.
I didn't know any better, but I didn't give up. I found another racing school, then went back to Buck Baker a year later and he remembered me and, did race pro. If you define racing pro as winning money, then I'll race pro.
[00:21:45] Jay: Beautiful
[00:21:47] Edward: And I'll tell you, it's the highest high. you can't, you know, like you see people all the time, adrenaline junkies, but when you are doing ocular driving, which means, cause I did road courses, so you would, your body is physically turning left into a turn, but your mind is looking at the next corner.
When you experience that for the first time, it's like, Oh my God, that was awesome. Because it's like an out of body experience,
you know, so, and though, bringing it back to a business conversation, started my own NASCAR race team, raced in Indianapolis, not at the big speedway, but the, the smaller track.
We raced on television. I was, I had the opportunity to, work with Toyota. and you know, I found myself fast forward, like seven years later, sitting in,motorhomes with Tony Stewart and,Dale Earnhardt Jr. It's like, how the heck did I get here? You know, but,
[00:22:45] Jay: That's awesome. Well, I love the theme of, you know. Starting a business in the thing that you're passionate about, right? I mean, that's another kind of seems like a common, you know, thread in your career. 2 more questions. If you had to start over again tomorrow was kind of square 1. you know, all the stuff, you know, obviously. What would be step one to start that business over again?
[00:23:09] Edward: well, one of the things I'm proud about Orbical is that we had a client bad debt us for about a hundred thousand dollars. We shouldn't be here today and I, you know, there's no way to quantify this, but probably 98 percent of the people that were in the situation we were in at the time we were in it would never have survived.
so I'm proud of that. so to answer that, to answer your question with that, I would have done a much better job of cash flow management. Managing, the accounts and if you look over the longevity of the company, one of the things that we're bumping into now is. The fries on the left syndrome, you walk in some days, our fries are on the left, sometimes they're on the right.
Sometimes there's no fries. We have to do a better job of processing so that we can replicate ourselves. My partner and I need to be able to go, get it, you know, get it, have an appendix out and be out for, you know, because of an infection and be out for 10 days and have enough, you know, have everything go nice or be on a two week vacation.
You know, we're not in a position to do that today and that's what we have to move forward towards now. So, I would have started better with the procedures and processes than worrying about getting the next client. making that time investment.
[00:24:32] Jay: I love that. all right. So last question non business related and I love to ask this question to people who Have done a bunch of crazy shit like you have like race cars and do a bunch of cool stuff So non business related if you could do anything on earth and you knew you couldn't fail, what would it be?
[00:24:51] Edward: Well, I think that's in various different stages and times in my life. Younger, a rock star. I mean, I would have been a friggin awesome rock star.
[00:24:59] Jay: All right
[00:25:00] Edward: Especially if I could perform in the shower.
then later on in life, the short stop for the Philadelphia Phillies, I mean, Larry Boa would have nothing on me that shows my age, talking about Larry Boa, then definitely,I think in my twenties, a Titan of business.
you know, and a few wrong curves there. You know, I had a net worth at one time that if I mean, I literally remember sitting there January 1st, 2000. All right, well, I can start this thing called Avid Learn. I can just go get a job and take all this money I have and put it into maybe some of these little stocks, like Apple looks like it might be a good company to grow or Amazon might look so I'm going to be able to company to grow.
And the calculation of what that investment would be today, it's just sad. But I always say that I would have. Probably bought a Ferrari, and I probably would have died on the Garden State Parkway. So here I am today alive.
but definitely a tight in a business. Then in my 30s, definitely a NASCAR driver.
I think today, besides what I'm doing, you know, I would love to be,a, not a well known consultant, but a consultant that's well, well known enough to make an impact with, yeah, the economy companies, people like that, because I have a very strategic knack of getting things done and I would like to be able to share that more.
[00:26:24] Jay: beautiful. Well, I can say that nobody's answered that question and kind of a generational, you know, they're the different phases of their life and what they would like to be. So I love that you have different. I mean, and that's probably the most honest answer because I think, There's this weird notion that, like, you just have this one thing that you want to do your entire life and, like, you're driving towards it and, like, that's all it's going to be, but the fact that kind of changes as you grow and you learn stuff and you do stuff and you accomplish things, I love that answer.
So, if people want to find out more about you, Ed, if they want to find out about, Orpical, Orpical, how do they do that?
[00:26:55] Edward: Orpical. com is by far the easiest, just O R P I C A L dot com. I'm on Twitter or X, whatever he's calling it today. also on LinkedIn. And so I'd love to, you know, help any way I can.
[00:27:11] Jay: Beautiful. All right, man. Well, it was fantastic meeting you. like I said, I think I know a couple people on your team already. Seems like a great group of folks. I hope people reach out and, you know, let's stay in touch and I'll talk to you again soon. All right. Thanks for being
[00:27:22] Edward: Thank you. Can I leave you with one thought?
[00:27:24] Jay: I would love for you to.
[00:27:27] Edward: I actually wrote this. Man, I hope I don't screw it up because I don't have it laying around here
[00:27:31] Jay: All right.
[00:27:35] Edward: All warriors are soldiers, but not all soldiers are warriors. All entrepreneurs are business owners, but not all business owners are entrepreneurs. To be an entrepreneur, you have to be a warrior.
[00:27:54] Jay: Beautiful. I'm going to put that quote in the, the notes for this episode. Love it.
[00:27:59] Edward: I really, I believe that's a whole other conversation. We could have the difference between a business owner and an entrepreneur.
[00:28:06] Jay: Yeah. I think we'll have you back on. I think we have more to talk about. So, I hope people reach out and, you know, I think we've got a lot of entrepreneurs and some warriors, in the audience. So, best of luck, brother. We'll talk again soon. All right.
Thanks. Ed.
[00:28:18] Edward: I really appreciate it. Go
Phillies.
[00:28:19] Jay: it, brother. Go Phils, man.