[00:00:27] Jay: Hi everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast today. We have a very special episode. first of all, we have Casandra Mann. Hello, Casandra. How are you?
[00:00:36] Casandra: Hi, Jay. Thanks for having me doing well.
[00:00:38] Jay: Thanks for being here. it's been a long time coming. it's a very interesting kind of, path we've taken. Walt, who owns, PSI, which is Precision Systems Incorporated, I believe,had, you know, throat cancer 20 some years ago.
They gave him a couple of years to live. Here he is. Today, kind of still kicking ass and doing his thing. it's a little hard to kind of get some of that stuff across as far as like a podcast format. So, Casandra and Tim, the VP of engineering over at, PSI were kind enough to introduce me to Walt in person. I sat down with Walt and got kind of a taste of his story. And, you know, so we're going to run through a little bit of just PIs, PSI's history. Casandra's here to obviously, you know, correct me on any of that history or add anything else. But then I want to talk about PSI today. How they're serving their customers still after, you know, Walt started this thing, you know, 40 plus years ago. and so we'll just go from there. So I'm going to kick it off real quick with just kind of a run through. you know, I sat in the same office you're sitting in right now. I got to see all that cool stuff behind you, which maybe we'll touch on, but, I grew up in Mount Pocono area, you know, he called himself a dirt farmer, which I loved. he went to trade school for computers, you know, his dad, was kind of a entrepreneur at heart pushing to do this stuff. you know, said never work for the man a day in your life, which I love that phrase. He learned, you know, a bunch of the core languages in school, you know, Cobalt and RPG and Assembly and Fortran, really excelled as a programmer. And I find it super interesting, and anybody who listens to any of these other episodes, Walt started his company, 40 plus years ago, the same way a lot of people do today. They started with consulting. So he, you know, had this skill set. he kind of worked his magic in GE and a bunch of other places to kind of get his bearings. And then he struck out on his own, right. He started pulling in projects from, previous, you know, employers and like people he used to work for and people used to work with. And it's kind of the same story, which I find super, I guess just. Inspiring is the easy way outward, but I would say it's just like a very cool thing to see that it's just the same stuff over and over again.
We're all doing the same stuff. You can start a successful business 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 60 years ago, maybe a hundred years ago, doing the same kind of stuff, just using some skills you have, to go out and start your own business, You know, he, he basically, had some partners early on that didn't really work out.
Well, you know, we'll fast forward through some of that stuff, but basically, he ended up having his wife as a partner, which was his best partner,out of the lot. And then obviously stayed together for this long and she helped run the company when he wasn't feeling well. So, and actually got to meet her when I was there, which was great. but then nine 11 happened. So he had this business he'd built for 20 plus years. You've gotten through cancer and a bunch of other things. And then nine 11 happened. And you mean you have big government contracts or big, corporate contracts, around that time period, everybody got scared. Everybody stopped spending money and they lost, you know, 7 million in contracts overnight, all their clients and contracts went away. And he could have decided to walk away and go do something else or rebuild it. So he said, I want to rebuild it my way. No partners. And obviously his wife is still there, but, you know, kind of do it his way and, you know, hire people with good standards. it's, I think it's where he implemented his testing procedure for new employees that you guys still do today. and, again, he started the company over with a personal relationship, somebody he knew, you know, previous, I think the previous. Coworker,or somebody he'd worked with that was the new first customer, right? So it's kind of the same thing. Start with consulting, getting a friends and family plan.
I like to call it people, you know, in your network and, you know, saying, look, this is what I do, this is what I'm doing now. Do you have any interest in it? Do you have know anybody who would, and that's another great, You know, just testament to the fact that's still how it could be done today is as much has been done over the past, you know, 40, 50 years. do it right the first time. I love that quote. you know, I think, just meeting you, Casandra meeting Tim. And I told Walt this when I was there. The people you have in your organization are a reflection of you directly, right? Because especially your executive leadership, because you wouldn't have these people representing your company if you didn't believe in their, you know, same ideals and same personality to some degree.
And some, just the general attitude about how to treat customers and other people. So, you know, I commend him for that. And I think he's built a really strong team around him. I did ask, what his thoughts were. On this AI craze. And I don't even, I don't do that. And I don't like to get into the like buzzwordy kind of like conversations, but I was curious.
I was genuinely curious. Like, what else has he seen? you know, besides or similar to AI, right? Like what has come along that was going to change the world overnight. And it was the biggest thing when he said embedded microchips. It's hard to argue that was not true, right? I mean, it has completely revolutionized the world.
You guys have a bunch of embedded microchip stuff behind you that was built by your company over the years. so I really enjoyed my time with Walt. I thought it was a great, you know, sit down, just a great guy and just very inspirational as somebody who owns a business, you know, 20 minutes away from where he does. I find that very cool and very inspirational. Like he went through all these challenges and. Kind of kept the business afloat, but also, you know, kept it thriving and brought in great people like you guys. he also mentioned his grandkids, his 82 Supra and his new black Corvette, some of his favorite things.
So, Walt, when you hear this episode, thank you for your time. It was fantastic meeting you. And now, Casandra, thank you for the patience there. I hope that was a good enough lead in, what did I miss about Walt or the story about PSI, in my overview there,
[00:05:51] Casandra: You're pretty comprehensive. So, so a lot of my like interview of Walt very much aligns with what you said, Jay. and I think just going back to Walt as a person, like it's about his story of resilience and about him doing things like the Walt way. and like you said, building a team, During his rebuild, like, he was focused on building a team of people that shared his values and that shared his beliefs and that, you know, wanted to do things the right way that had the utmost integrity in the work that they're doing in quality work.
and that's really that's Walt and that's the company today. So he and Sue have done an incredible job of just instilling this culture. That's very. Employee centric and, you know, family focus. And I love that because I think so often today we can get bogged down by, like the hustle and bustle of work life and not really having that balance between home life.
And they've just, they've instilled that in everyone here. So, I think you really hit the nail on the head with what, again, just resilience, rebuilding, you know, his failed partners in the past, you know, he, we were kind of talking about, like, if he could do this all over again, like, from the beginning, what would he do?
What would he redo? And it was really just having enough faith in himself that he can do it on his own versus having to rely on partners to kind of make up for what he believed that he lacked. And really what he thought he lacked was just a degree. And so when you go back to, you were talking about consultants and how that's really trendy right now and starting your own business as a consultant.
Walt did not have a like computer science or software engineering degree back in, you know, the late seventies. He thought he needed that to start this business. And so he was relying on a partner who had that to make up for what he lacked. And you know what? Today in like today's business environment, how many people take that non traditional path and they don't go the education route or the college route, university route.
And they go that, you know, I'm just, I'm going to be a calculated risk taker here. I'm going to forego the schooling and I'm going to be a consultant or whatever I have that can bring value into the industry. I'm going to give that to people as a service or consultancy. And that's what he did. Back in the seventies and here, you know, 40, 45 years later, he's running a successful company today.
So, like you said, kind of tying those things from 40 years ago to now, there's a lot of similarities. he just had 40 to 45 years now to look back and in hindsight, see that like, yeah, I should have had that confidence and just have done it myself from the beginning. And that's where he got to then, you know, post nine 11.
[00:08:19] Jay: When did you start at PSI?
[00:08:22] Casandra: I'll be here seven years in October. So it's hard to believe. So seven years, nearly seven years ago.
[00:08:27] Jay: And, so we talk about first customers, in different contexts on the show, typically, who was your first customer that you dealt with at PSI? I
[00:08:39] Casandra: That's a good, I have to think back to, so, so my role today is overseeing the operation side of the business. but my initial role here at PSI was marketing and sales manager. so I did a lot of kind of management of relationships early on, but the first project that I brought into the company, was actually a surgical robotics system, which is really cool to talk about.
I was responsible for running our trade show booths. So I was just staffed at a trade show booth. it was the MD and M trade show in New York city at the Javits center. And we met a startup company that was building a surgical robotics system. And that was there very early on. Didn't have a, didn't have internal software engineering support.
So they were looking to outsource work with a partner. and probably over the course of nine to 12 months or so, we just maintained that relationship, those touch points. and long story short, we ended up working with them on the design and actually Walt worked with them on the design. He was the designer of the system.
I'm not a software engineer, so you don't want me writing any type of code.
[00:09:41] Jay: That's, I mean, my background is in software development. but I'm in QA. You don't want me writing your software either. So we're in this, we're in the same, I break it. I don't make it
well, very cool. So, how has, even in those seven years, how much, how has the targeting gotten better? How has the, have you really kind of, you know, crystallized that ICP that you guys are going at? Like, who is the target customer? Like, how has it changed over the seven years? Like, who was it when you came in and who is it now? And is it the exact same?
[00:10:14] Casandra: yeah. I think it's evolved slightly. so what I will say is when I started out, right, I'm coming in as this like young marketing professional, everything has to be digital marketing, SEO, we know, you know, we have to have shiny website and all that. that's what I thought marketing was.
and what I quickly learned from Walt is that it's actually about like those personal relationships that you have. Of course, we want, of course, we want to have inbound leads and, you know, have our digital footprint looking nice and shiny, but it was about building connections and building relationships.
So where I thought I could hide behind a screen and behind my computer and do digital marketing, I very quickly learned that it's about, you know, going to events, networking with people, meeting people in the community. Establishing relationships and connections that can kind of manifest into, A web of personal relationships.
So people don't just see, Oh, there's a marketing email from PSI. There's Casandra man from PSI. I know her, I trust her. I want to work with her and her company. And that's really what Walt's done for the past 45 years now. so I digress, but that's what I thought marketing was. we are still working on our marketing initiatives.
So Over the years, we've tried different things. Marketing wise, we've tried, you know, buying lists and then doing email campaigns that way. We've tried LinkedIn ads. We've tried the whole digital thing. SEO, it really has. We haven't found our, we haven't found what's right for us yet, though. I think we're getting there.
So we're starting to understand more about our target audience, about who we need to be connecting with. And really it comes down to, again, like those relationships we're learning a lot from. So, we work with a lot of, larger companies and we work with a lot of smaller companies. Mid sized companies are more so they're more self sufficient where they have, you know, dedicated software engineers.
larger companies will often outsource as a cost saving mechanism or to have a specific set of expertise that perhaps a partner would have. so that's where we found a lot of, success. In is helping out those, you know, larger global OEMs and manufacturers, and then the smaller companies, the startups, they just don't have the bandwidth to have a dedicated software engineering team on staff at that time.
So we come in and help them get started and help them, design, you know, their systems and whatnot. So we're kind of a, we're kind of a. The big end and the small end and in the middle, we can play there as well. It's just, there's not as much of a need for us.so how do we find those people so far?
It's been a lot of relationship building and now we're going to start to get into the digital marketing aspect of it, but in a responsible way versus relying on that completely.
[00:12:51] Jay: How, it's very interesting, how, what was Walt's opinion of your strategy early on being, did he like, was he kind of hesitant because he knew the relationships were the way to go? Was he looking for you to come in and try a bunch of different stuff and see what worked? Like how did he view it when you first kind of brought in digital marketing stuff to PSI?
Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:18] Casandra: Very supportive of it. So Walt is always supportive of new ideas. but he, he knows the importance of marketing as a whole. So, he was supportive of the digital effort. Certainly. I think that we went a little heavy in that route and stopped focusing on those relationships. And so he had to help recalibrate, you know, okay, that's.
That digital stuff, but also make sure that we're keeping those relationships maintained and that we're meeting new people and that we're still getting out there and still, you know, branding ourselves locally because a lot of our business is local.so he had to help find that balance and help recalibrate there.
And that's where I really learned a lot from him in that regard.
[00:13:55] Jay: Well, that's where, that's how I met you guys. Not
that I'm a client, but that is how I met you guys. Was at
a pack event, him and I think Alex, were there and, we had, I just sat down next to two dudes and we're like, you know, just talking and I was like, I thought I'd seen them because I used to live in Warrington.
So like kind of up that ish way.
And I'm like, I thought I knew of the company or something. and now here we are. And you know, it's been a great relationship, even if it's not, you know, client. vendor or whatever. It's still like, there's people that I know that, you know, I would refer you guys to and vice
versa.
And it's just like a good, the relationship thing has to be part of it. And it's the most annoying. It's the most like emotionally draining and the most like scary. it's like the, it's like the equivalent of like sales cold calls, right?
[00:14:41] Casandra: Yeah.
[00:14:42] Jay: no. And you're like, you're there and you're at this point. Space where you don't know a bunch of people and you have to like push yourself out of it. I mean, those are the times where you make the connections that turn into something later on. So it's cool that you guys have a, have that good balance. So tell me, tell me what you do as the VP of operations. I know you said you have sales and marketing under you now, still, but like, how does that whole thing work with you? what's your roles and responsibilities?
[00:15:06] Casandra: Yeah. So I still have a lot of involvement in sales and marketing. like for example, right now, in terms of marketing, we're a bit light right now. We're looking to partner with a company that can really, like enhance our digital footprint again in a responsible way. so, so that's a, That's basically a strategic initiative this year for PSI.
and then we've actually recently hired on a business developer representative. I'm super excited about him. His name is Peter Eisenhower. he actually worked at a past client of ours. and then he worked really closely with Walt in that engagement and just really loved the way that Walt did things, had a lot of respect for him and he wanted to come work for Walt.
So, that all worked out really well.so we are, yeah, we're growing in sales. We're growing in marketing. That's my main responsibility. But then there's a lot of day to day stuff as well. So a lot of interfacing with clients, working with our project managers, just to ensure that like transition from sales and marketing into production of our development projects.
that goes smoothly. some back office stuff in terms of like accounting and HR type of stuff, like making sure that our employees are taken care of as well. So a lot of behind the scenes, but then also be in front of, you know, our clients and working on, contract negotiations and lots of fun stuff.
A lot of stuff that I will say, I can truly say, I don't believe I would have had the opportunity to learn different facets of the business like this. In any other company, like Walt and his wife, Sue, who's our CEO. They've really given me that opportunity. So I'm forever appreciated, appreciative of what they've done.
[00:16:36] Jay: Yeah. It's operations is such a, it's like such a bucket. You know, like, like everything just gets stuck in there and
[00:16:43] Casandra: Anything can be operations, right? Yeah.
[00:16:45] Jay: I mean, as you're saying that stuff, I'm thinking like, this is what my poor CEO has to deal with every day is all the literally everything you just said, it's the same, you know, and we're in a similar, like, it services kind of space.
So it's like, it's very similar, like, you know, and a lot of just overarching, yeah. You know, you run like a daycare, right? You run like everything, like you, you keep everybody just like inside the lanes and like, make sure that, you know, nobody gets there, you know, falls off the slide or whatever, and just like keep everybody together.
So, I love that. No, I do have a question. What is your take on. Business development versus sales. Like, do you guys differentiate between that at all?
[00:17:28] Casandra: I would have said previously that they were synonymous. I don't believe that today. So I do feel like the business development aspect is that relationship building component. it's so, so our business development manager, he is attending events, he's feet on the ground, he's, you know, shaking hands. does he also do sales?
Yes. But I feel like that's a component that comes kind of after that business development component. And then of course you can bypass that whole business development component. If you're Doing digital marketing and digital sales because you're getting those inbound leads that are, you know, kind of bypassing that initial relationship building component.
and then the sales aspect, I think is kind of the step beyond business development. And that's where, you know, you've. You've established a relationship. You've established that there's a need. And now you're trying to figure out how to best like sell your services to that person or that entity or whomever.
so I do differentiate those now, but again, previously I would have said, well, they're the same thing, you know, account executive business development sales, all the same thing. But I truly believe that they do have different, Different, I would say roles and the responsibilities, but then also like strengths.
Right.
[00:18:39] Jay: Yeah. Yeah. And it makes sense that when you're smaller, those things are all, they are all the same thing
[00:18:45] Casandra: you wear a lot of hats in a small business. Yeah.
[00:18:47] Jay: that you grow. And you're like, Oh, we, this is specifically what this guy is supposed to be doing for 50 percent of its time versus. Getting on calls and making sales. And like, it's fun to be part of an evolution of a company like that.
have you, what other things, have you seen evolve at PSI since your seven years there that you kind of, you were like, that's a cool team thing, or that's a cool company thing to have been part of this growth. You know, moment for us, like, what are some of those things that you've seen there?
[00:19:13] Casandra: Yeah. So, so I would say the first four years or so that I was here, we were about 20 people or so. And then in the last three to four years, three and a half years or so, we grew about 15 folks. give or take, cause there's been some transition there. But just the way that we were able to grow in a really short amount of time and then sustain that growth as well was really cool to see.
and I think that was just really. Us overcoming some fear of, like, how are we going to manage more people and then actually putting some, like, operational structures in place. So, making sure that our infrastructure was prepared for more people to support more people. As you said earlier, so Walt has standards for our software engineers, right?
But we've grown those standards into business standards as well, so that we can support growth. And I think that's really critical and really important for any company, you know, if you're going to grow. Especially if it's growing people wise, because people management is a lot have policies and procedures in place so that it's fair and equal to everyone.
And so that you know what you're doing. And so, you know, when a situation arises, you have a response plan. Because otherwise, then it's just reacting and putting out fires and never getting ahead of that. So I'm really proud of what we've done there. And there's been a lot of different people involved in that here internally.
So that's been really cool to see. So, yeah, so we nearly doubled in about a 3 year period. We're about, we're 36 people now, so we did reduce slightly. but we're looking at, you know, potentially growing again and there's there. I say this now, so I'll stand by this, but software engineering is not going anywhere.
I know that there's like, the risk of AI and all that, but. Still, I truly believe that there is a human aspect that is needed there. and, like, the brilliant minds that come with that in terms of how to architect a system in the most efficient way and how to design a system. Like, that's not going anywhere.
So, yeah, I love the industry that we're in. I know that there's opportunity for growth here.
[00:21:14] Jay: Yeah, no. And it's always cool to, see a small company grow and,
like just the different challenges and different kinds of cool things that brings along, Is a very cool experience. all right. Well, this was very, very fun for me personally. So thank you for that. Because everything is my wife would love to tell you is about me.
So thank you for indulging me and letting me meet wall and hear your story and his story. let's finish with one question that I always ask
everybody. if you could do anything on earth, non business wise. And you knew you couldn't fail. What would it be?
[00:21:50] Casandra: So this answer might be more subjective to the time of my life that I'm in right now. But, honestly I would just be like the best mom that I can be. So I have a three year old and I have one on the way and I, my life changed when my daughter was born. And so just being the best mom that I can be and like providing her the opportunity, all the opportunities that she can have, like, that's what I would do.
Just be a really awesome mom to her and my future children. nothing, you know, nothing overly inspiring or business
[00:22:18] Jay: No, that is great. No, I think it's, I mean, congratulations, by the way. I didn't know you were expecting. no, I think it's a great answer. I don't think that, I think that's a, you said it without hesitation, which means that like, it's a, Did say, you know, I don't love the, like, what's your, why kind of,
[00:22:34] Casandra: yeah,
[00:22:35] Jay: but I do believe that like having things that, that you're very passionate about or that you care about, or that you're doing things for, makes you a better business person, makes you a better human being, makes you a better parent, it makes you better, whatever.
So I love that answer. It's a great answer. Casandra, if, people want to find more about PSI, how do they do that?
[00:22:52] Casandra: Yep. You can find us at psi-software.com and we are on LinkedIn as well,
[00:22:59] Jay: And if they want to find you,and ask any question about anything they heard, or just reach out in general, how do they do that?
[00:23:04] Casandra: so you can, email me. My email is cmann, cmann@psi-software.com.
[00:23:12] Jay: Beautiful. Well, we'll link that in the bio, of the episode. Well, thank you so much.
it was
[00:23:17] Casandra: This is my first podcast.
[00:23:19] Jay: Well, look at that. Well, you
did great. Oh, already you can, you should hit the circuit, you know, while you're got time,while you're, you know, laid up on maternity leave. all right.
Well, it was great. It was great seeing you and, thanks for being on. We'll talk again soon. All right.
[00:23:31] Casandra: Thank you Jay. Take care.