[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the First Customer Podcast. My name is Jay Aigner. Today, I'm lucky enough to be joined by Jon Brown, VP of Technology and Cybersecurity at Interlaced. Jon, how are
you, buddy?
[00:00:37] Jon: Hey, I'm good. Thanks. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
[00:00:40] Jay: I'm glad to have you, man. I didn't even know that you had sold, a company and now I think this is, you work for the company you sold it to, right?
[00:00:47] Jon: Yeah, that's right. So in 2014, I started an IT services, MSB company called Grove Technologies, based in the Washington DC area. We service the Virginia DC Metro and Maryland areas. and yeah, I ran that business from 2014 to 2022, and then sold it to interlace. io. They're a West Coast IT services, based company.
So they did a lot of the same stuff that we did, but they just did it, on a different geographic location, right? So in the San Diego, LA, San Francisco market, their target customer was pretty much identical to what we were targeting. Our service model was providing IT support services to companies predominantly using Apple technology.
So that's the name Grove and the order and a kind of a take on that Apple sort of ecosystem.
Same thing with interlaced dealing predominantly with Apple focused companies. so there's a lot of really great synergy there. And, yeah, it took a good two years of diligence, I would say. So from 2020 to 2022, there was a lot of conversations, a lot of diligence.
requests going back and forth, a lot of just initial interest and kind of seeing where it went. and yeah, that led to a lot of different interesting conversations, conversations like, I wonder what my business would be worth if I was to sell it. Right. Like, I mean, I wasn't really interested in selling it, but kind of curious at what kind of evaluation I would get.
And then. Realizing that service based companies are certainly very hard to sell, they're hard to scale, and they're hard to, invest in.
It's really a very scary proposition, especially when everything is so bound up and centered around one individual within an organization.
[00:02:49] Jay: Mm hmm.
[00:02:49] Jon: got to a point in the negotiations where, I was able to, show real growth value, right?
So I was able to take the company in 2020 to 2022. I was able to double the revenue. I was able to increase the EBITDA. I was able to actually hit all the metrics that mattered for this company who was interested in kind of joining forces at the onset. You know, the, at the beginning, it was more about how can we partner together?
Then it was, why don't you just leave your gig and come join us?
And then it was, well, if you really want to get some value out of what you built, here are the, guideposts in terms of what we're looking for. And set those as goals for the organization, hit those goals, and that eventually led to the sale of the company.
And the goal, now that we've joined forces, is really to... become a unified nationwide company, right? Actually go after the market, the IT services space, those embracing Apple technology nationwide and provide amazing support to that niche of the IT support services market.
[00:04:01] Jay: Hmm. Lots to dig into there. let's go back to the start. Where did you grow up originally?
[00:04:07] Jon: Yeah. So I actually grew up in Southern Maine in a small little town of Kenny bunk in Southern Maine.
[00:04:15] Jay: Mm
[00:04:15] Jon: I grew up there, went to high school, really kind of a boring, sheltered, small town ish kind of life, always longed to kind of get out and do something more, so I did the only illogical thing as, you know, someone who graduated in 97, went to college nearby to another small, area in Rindge, New Hampshire, went to a college called Franklin Pierce University.
The little known, university out in New Hampshire. By then, I was really feeling it, like, I went, I grew up in a small town, now I'm in a college in a small town, graduated with a degree in graphic design and computer animation. That was back in 2001. So the infancy of the internet, I was working on a really cool technology, Apple was.
It's starting to get back into the swing of it, Jobs was back in his role as CEO, so it's really getting into Apple computers, and I was using them a lot. Got a job at a newspaper, realized that I hated graphic design, like I love the concept of it. I enjoy the work, but I hated the critique process. I hated, people telling me that, oh, just, you know.
If you're, I was really into website development when it first came out, when everything was blinking
[00:05:35] Jay: No, yeah,
[00:05:36] Jon: and, you
[00:05:36] Jay: the GeoCities, the GeoCities
days. Yeah
[00:05:40] Jon: right? So I would be making a website and people would be like, Oh, can you make that, text flash rainbow colors? I'm like, no, that's ugly.
I'm like this. I hate this. So I got out of it and I, just started naturally gravitated towards. It's a more of a technical slant, but, at that point I decided that I needed to get out of the small town life I wanted to go explore. So I found a job on online, which sounds really sketchy now, but in 2001, I found a job online, teaching English overseas and, I worked in the school system in Mongolia for a year.
and then I bummed around Asia for, for about. Seven years, just teaching English and having fun and exploring, the world on that side. got engaged, got married, moved back to the States and a buddy, and I moved back to Maine because that's all I knew and that's kind of where I was from, got a kind of dead end ish kind of job.
And my buddy who lived in Maryland at the time was like, dude, you just got to move down here. There's tons of jobs, tons of opportunity. got my Apple certification, moved down to Maryland, and within a week I had a full-time job as an IT support specialist for a nonprofit. And I kind of worked my way around the IT circuit until I realized, hey, I'm pretty good at this.
I could probably start my own company. and the idea was not to actually start a company. The idea was I'm just gonna take a break and I'm just gonna try consulting and see how that goes. And one client led to two, and two led to four, and four led to eight, and before I knew it, I was running a company, and I was at the point where I'm like, I can't say no to money, I just can't.
I guess I need to start hiring people.
[00:07:30] Jay: that's my favorite quote. I say that all I said that today on a podcast. That's my I tell a lot of I think entrepreneurs like you
just start to see it and you can't say no to money I do have one quick question. What was the This is non entrepreneurial, so I usually stay away from it, but what would you say is the biggest lesson you learned bumming around Asia?
Like, what did you bring back that you kind of felt like you gathered over there?
[00:07:57] Jon: It really did expand my world view. The one thing that was interesting, I was one of the only Americans that I even, that I ever met, like, when I was overseas, it was 99%. Canadians, and reflecting back on the political landscape of the US, it just really opened my eyes to how broken the systems were, but from a different perspective, like from the outside looking at the problem, the problems in the country from the perspective of other people outside of the US, and just kind of realizing that.
without getting too political, that like, you know, everything in America isn't as, as shiny and rosy as I thought they were when I lived in a very small town in a very rural area of the United States. So that was very eye opening and that certainly, gave me a lot more of like, respect and, Just admiration for other countries and other cultures.
so that was certainly a big lesson learned for sure.
[00:09:05] Jay: Yeah, I remember reading somewhere on Reddit or something and it kind of, I mean this was probably a decade ago, but it, they were talking about How people viewed like Hiroshima and like the bombing over there Worldwide and you learn about it one way here, and you just think it's like oh We saved the world and we won the war and like all these people are like wait a minute.
That's Maybe not exactly how the rest of the world saw that play out. So, very interesting little detour. I was just curious, but I think that's important to have that expanded worldview. So, talk to me about. You kind of stumbled into running a business. how did you tackle some of the kind of core business things that, you know, you weren't maybe prepared for, like sales and marketing and that sort of stuff.
Like, how did you hone those skills, as you kind of expanded into a business that you didn't know that you wanted to run?
[00:10:00] Jon: Yeah, it is kind of interesting. So, I'd say early on my core foundation of clients. We're pretty instrumental in the, success of the business, over the landscape of me just trying to figure out how to run a business. I certainly just tried a lot of things to get new business and I thought, well, if I am just creative enough or if I just use the right, marketing tactics and I would Google things online and ask friends like, well, what have you tried?
You just kind of threw a lot at the wall to see what worked. there were a few really interesting creative ideas that I had. I think a lot of times, marketing especially, and that was the thing that I really kind of struggled with, was how do I get new clients, right? Like, I would get, I would have some clients and I would lose some clients.
And I'm like, okay, well, now how do I replace these clients? and I tried a lot of interesting things. So one of the first things I tried was, well, my target market is Apple. based, companies. So let me, sponsor as an IT company, a market, a table at like a, creative, marketing and, strategic services conference.
And that worked out really well. I was the only IT services company. Everyone there was targeting the same market as me, but from a different angle. You had Adobe, you had Sketch, you had all the major tools. All of those tools ran on Apple computers, but there was no companies supporting Apple. Apple wasn't at the event.
There was nothing there. So I got a lot of really great leads from that. Another kind of good success story was just going to WeWork and working on a deal where I would go there for an hour a week and I set up a table and it was free IT services for an hour. Come up and ask your questions.
Everyone there had an app, had a Mac. Most of the people there couldn't afford an IT company, but the idea was, plant the seed, if they got bigger, they would come and seek me out. So, those two things really worked. I think it was in the second idea where I realized that in order to get, you have to give.
And that fundamentally was a hard lesson to learn. Because I was always trying to get, get, get without realizing that sometimes it's an investment, right? You have to give to get back. And then the, second thing that was hard for me was knowing what you're selling. So, from my perspective, I was selling IT services.
So I'm like, I gotta advertise how great I am at solving IT problems. But nobody cares about... How great you are at solving IT problems. they don't care. They don't care that you're talented or have certifications. They don't care what your work history is. All they care about is I have a problem right now.
Can you help me? And how do I find you when I'm in need of that specific
[00:13:02] Jay: Hm.
[00:13:03] Jon: And that's a different way of thinking about outreach and growth, especially From a marketing perspective, I think everything else came pretty naturally. The sales, I'm pretty good at explaining exactly what the benefit is and, helping people through the sales process.
So that wasn't as huge of a hurdle. Accounting and bookkeeping disastrous. I got partners to help me with that almost immediately. obviously setting up the business was a challenge that I think most people just legally don't know. One of
the, first challenges I had when I started the company was I picked a name and the name I picked just right out of the gate, Mac Guru's, great name, wonderful name, but it was taken by another company that I had never heard of, called Mac Guru's in Southern California.
They weren't heavily advertising, Mac Guru Consulting, the exact same line of business as me. They worked in IT, Apple Consulting, I started marketing on podcasts, I started doing nationwide advertising and all of a sudden I had a cease and desist letter.
[00:14:12] Jay: Mm
[00:14:13] Jon: use that as an opportunity to kind of rebrand the company and refocus.
The name and during that process had to really do some soul searching on what I wanted the company to be. I was a year and a half ish old at that point. And I really had to commit, am I going to be come and stay a single person, entrepreneur consulting business, or am I going to, do I want to take this and make it something bigger?
And, I worked with a marketing agency. And I was providing IT services to this marketing agency, and they weren't doing so well financially, so we did a trade.
I needed to give them IT support services, and they rebranded the company. Went through the rebrand exercise, came up, came away with Grove Technologies.
The company in question that rebranded me gave me the new logo, etc. Went bankrupt, two months after. We were the last company that they had helped, but almost immediately after I was rebranded and had sort of like re, established my identity, the company just really took off because I actually had more focus.
I had more energy. I had more of a singular goal that I didn't have before. It was really just, can I do this? Sure I can. And I did it. slap on the wrist for picking the wrong name. Now I have a new identity. I have a new opportunity to kind of like get it right. And so that was really important, I think, in the overall growth of the business and it was also growth in me as an individual too,
[00:15:54] Jay: I love all that. tell me so You kind of walked us through the acquisition a little bit. and we talked a little bit before the show. I mean that That is a first customer, right? I mean, you had to go through a bunch of stuff. You had goalposts that you had to kind of reach. one question I had about that is how did you really laser focus on doubling revenue? What did you do differently once you realized what the targets were to really hit them? Like, what did you go after to make that happen?
[00:16:26] Jon: right? So again, I think it really boils down to understanding. What it is that you're selling I think during those two years. I Really focused on providing the best Service that I possibly could so I didn't actually focus on sales. I focused on service I doubled down on service. I hired a client success manager and I really just made sure that I was taking care of all my clients Re evaluated the contracts that we were putting in place from the perspective of a future buyer, right?
If I'm going to be transitioning clients and putting them through this sort of sale process, I need to make sure that my contracts are buttoned up during that review, realize that there was a lot of opportunity in terms of revenue that I was leaving on the table. A lot of prices that I hadn't, you know, hadn't raised since 2014.
so just little incremental pivots like that, definitely contributed greatly to the overall outlook financially. I would say that during that time of growth, 50 percent of the business grew year over year just by word of mouth referrals, putting together an actual referral program, to reward our clients.
So the idea was the more you refer, the deeper of a discount that you would get back. on your own invoice. a lot of our customers love that, refer to a lot of their friends. I mean, I had a lot of really amazing super connectors, just people who were just die hard fans of the business and the brand, and they were constantly connecting us anyway.
So I was kind of doing that in an ad hoc way, but I just formalized it and that brought in a tremendous amount of revenue. And I think the. The last sort of like contributing factor was just doing a little bit more, networking, right? So getting on podcasts and getting out there just a little bit more publicly and giving back to the, to the community.
I think that was big. So going to Apple focused events where I knew that, IT support technicians, IT consultants, Apple consultants would be, and just kind of contributing back into the community, posting about that on LinkedIn and advertising the need for consultants in my space, mentoring other consultants in the space led to,just sort of like a natural inflow of clients just from me meeting new people and being introduced to new people.
And establishing what, you know, I didn't really realize I was doing it actively at the time, but I was creating strategic partnerships and alliances, right? So a lot of my competitors I would meet with on a regular basis and we would trade leads. It'd be like, Hey, I got a lead. They're a little bit too big for me.
You'd be interested. And they would refer leads to me. So we learned how to cooperate. within the same geographic area so that we were all winning. And I think having that kind of perspective and looking at your business from that way. yeah, it just, it really was like I was investing in the business indirectly and I was reaping the dividends of it.
[00:19:58] Jay: Yeah, that's, especially the last one. I think a lot of business owners are afraid. Of their competition. And you'd be shocked at how different those companies are, even though they're selling the same stuff, they're going after the same customers, they're doing all these things, but when I've talked to. Other software testing agencies, there's been massive opportunity. Like you said, maybe they're too big, maybe they're too small. Maybe they don't have the time, maybe it's whatever. And there's always a opportunity, to kind of share the wealth and kind of make sure everybody is successful. So I love that.
if you had to start, and it's a little bit different cause you moved on from it, but, or you're, you know, you've got to acquire, but if you had to start grove over. what would be step one?
[00:20:44] Jon: I would pick the name right off the bat. I
[00:20:49] Jay: all in the name.
[00:20:50] Jon: I wouldn't go. Yeah,
I think that I would, knowing what I know now and, and kind of going into it, I would definitely have a better idea of what my, or who my target customer was, and is, I think, you know, going into it, I just knew what my competition was.
And I knew that, all I knew was, hey, we're all kind of going after the same kind of client, but I was taking on any client that I could get my hands on and sort of learning the hard way the difference between a client and a great client. Right.
A great client is a client that you wake up and you're like, I love working with this company.
I love working with, for the cause. that they're excited about and I feel like I'm contributing and making a difference, in the lives of their customers as well. And it's a win win. I'm making money and they love working with me. I think that a lot of businesses say that, oh, I know who that is.
I know what my, but I think that a lot of businesses at the end of the day, they just slowly make concessions for the sake of enhancing their bottom line. The best businesses out there are laser focused on their ideal customer, and they don't deviate very far from that because they know that if they do, it's a slippery slope.
You start saying yes to this, you start saying yes to that. And before you know it, not only are you as a service based, you know, as a service operator getting worn down by Hey, like, I just don't even see the value clients that flows through the client. Suddenly they don't feel like they see the value you have to work harder to make them happy because you know, when it's a great client, it's easy, it feels easy.
Right. and then suddenly you're starting to think about, well, in order to get the next not great client, I have to expand my service catalog. I have to change my business. And now the whole thing kind of falls apart by making sure that you're focused on your core set of offerings, your core service offerings, and your, ideal client puts you in a position where you can say, no, I think that's a very important thing in a service based company.
And any company is to get to a point where you're comfortable saying no. To money and having the infrastructure like I talked about before a network that you where you can say, hey, you know what? You're a great client I'm sure you would be great to work with you're just not our ideal client, but I
Set you up with a company that can help you
[00:23:35] Jay: Right. No, that's great. I love that. it's very easy to chase like I said Saying no to money is hard especially when you're scrappy and you're trying to just get by and like you think and i've worked for a lot of companies That we're stuck in that loop where,
you know, especially like software as a service companies where they just become custom software developers because they could never say no, cause they're afraid to lose a client.
Now all the employees are pissed off because you got 50 different versions of the platform and it's a mess. And it's the same thing with any business. Once you start to deviate, like you said, that's a great point. your your whole footprint expands so much that you don't even know who you are anymore.
And that definitely trickles down to the client. So that makes a lot of sense. let's switch gears a little bit. what are three things health wise, for yourself personally, that you're trying to work on, to increase your longevity?
[00:24:24] Jon: health wise Well, I mean I for me learning and being, and doubling down and being a lifelong learner is really important. I recently just, wrapped up my MBA at a school called Quantic. It's an all online MBA program. It was really kind of interesting going through that after selling the company, I actually learned quite a bit.
I learned that I, what I learned a lot of was I. I learned most of what the MBA was teaching just by doing it and I didn't realize I was learning it while I was doing it. there was a lot of things that I could have done better and faster and more efficiently knowing what I knew after the program.
So that was cool. I'm actually going now working on getting my CISP because I'm really interested in cyber security and kind of seeing what I can do in that field. I think just in general, just good old fitness, right? And I'm approaching 45, so trying to stay in good physical health, going outside, playing with my son, spending time with the family and getting away from, technology, I think just in general is important.
And I think the last thing is, one of the contributing factors that led to me ultimately deciding to sell the business was going through so many economic upswings and downswings as a business owner takes a toll on you mentally and physically. And I think that, while it was challenging and fun to kind of go through that, I think that being able to Say, I am going to take a vacation and actually mean it and I'm actually going to be able to step away from the business and not feel obligated to work in it and
on it because my personal mental health and success isn't tied to that anymore.
was important. I think that the reality though is of any good entrepreneur, or any entrepreneur, whether they're good or not good, is that, there is a need for you to create. There is a need for you inside of you to do something. And once you get a taste for that, you inherently want to continue it in some small way.
So I'm constantly giving back, to the community on my LinkedIn channel. I'm constantly networking and trying to mentor people, specifically in the services based industry. And I'm constantly encouraging anybody to get out there, find your side hustle, and expand what you think you are capable of. If you had asked me 10, 20 years ago, as an employee of a company providing IT support services, would you ever consider being a business owner, an operator, I would have said no.
but it was because I had never expanded my mindset at that time to think that I would be capable, ever capable of doing it. But there's so much opportunity out there to get in, to become an entrepreneur and just sort of test the waters. There's a way more opportunity now than there's ever been in any point in history.
And it's so easy to say that you've tried something. and fail in a very low risk way. so I'm constantly reminding people, like, just get out there and get your hands dirty, get your feet wet and try it. Yeah,
[00:27:57] Jay: Yeah, those are all, I love all those. I call myself a consulting evangelist. Like I, like everybody should consult.
Everybody should have a side hustle. everybody should just do it. You know? Like, that's the biggest thing. It's like, so many people ask me, How do you run a business? And how do you do this? It's like, you just have to do it. You can't talk about it. Talk is less than cheap. Talk means nothing. You know, talk is literally nothing. Like, you just have to go out there. And you probably have a network of people that you don't even know exist that would probably buy something from you if you had a service or some sort of product to offer them.
So, I love that. I think, you know, keeping yourself sharp and, you know, preaching the word and giving back is, is very important too. alright, so last thing, mystery question, non business related, can't be about business. Has to be something personal. what is one thing you would do if you knew you couldn't fail?
[00:28:57] Jon: One thing that I would do if I knew I couldn't fail. Hmm. yeah, I mean, I'd probably run for president. Why not?
[00:29:08] Jay: wow. That's the first time I've heard that one. You
win the, uh,
[00:29:11] Jon: Like, why not? If I knew I was going to win.
[00:29:15] Jay: I mean, you're eight miles from the White
[00:29:17] Jon: That's right.
[00:29:18] Jay: pretty short commute.
[00:29:19] Jon: I'm in a very politically charged environment
[00:29:22] Jay: very politically
[00:29:23] Jon: I've got a name that's good for politics. Jon Brown. I feel
[00:29:27] Jay: Brown's a great, yeah.
a little sign. That's great.
[00:29:31] Jon: yeah, no, I feel like it, I could do a lot of, I was thinking like, how could I be impactful at scale? That would be what, what the goal would be.
[00:29:42] Jay: and, you know, starting a nonprofit organization, , you know, starting a company where I could give back to people within, you know, within the state or within the US or the world. yeah, I mean it's kind of a cursed role unfortunately, but, It's definitely a cursed role. It's, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. but, look, I mean, President Jon Brown, uh, I love it. hey man, there's still, you know, you're 45, I think you're of age now, right? Isn't it 35,
[00:30:10] Jon: That's right. Yeah. I'm coming in as a young
[00:30:13] Jay: Yeah, you're the young president, man.
What's Biden's like? 140? Dude. You can get in there and do whatever you want to do. all right, well, you were awesome, man. I appreciate the time. I love the story. I hope people glean some stuff from that. I love the travel in the world and, and, you know, starting a business by accident and selling a business and, and giving back and all these things.
So, very much enjoyed our time together today. If people want to find you, if they want to find, interlaced, what's the best way to find you guys?
[00:30:41] Jon: yeah, so you can find me on my LinkedIn page. That's the best way to connect with me and interlace. io. We provide IT support services nationwide to companies predominantly working with Apple technology. So we'd love to have a conversation.
[00:30:58] Jay: Awesome. Well, I hope people look you up, and, I thank you for your time today, brother. And, enjoy the rest of your week, and we'll talk again soon, alright? Thanks, Jon.
[00:31:05] Jon: Thank you.
[00:31:06] Jay: Thanks, man.