[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the first customer podcast. My name is Jay Aigner and I am lucky enough to be joined by Fiona Jamison. I almost said Johnson. I read my notes wrong. You said Jamison like the whiskey, which is, I used to drink a lot of, I don't drink anymore, but, I'm glad to have you on today.
CEO of Spring International. We're part of the Philly Chamber of Commerce together. you're right down the road in Bluebell. Fiona, thanks for joining me. How are you?
[00:00:51] Fiona: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. It's nice to see you again.
[00:00:54] Jay: It's very nice to see you again. you bring a very, Unique perspective to all the meetings that we've been to, you're very. lively and bring a lot of, you know, fun to the conversation.
you bring a lot of the different kind of analytical view to HR and these different things is like, it's all very cool stuff that you kind of relate back to what you do and all the means we've been in. So very excited to get into it. So, let's jump to the start of it. Where did you grow up?
And did that have any, you know, you know, any. Bearing on you being an entrepreneur later in life.
[00:01:24] Fiona: yeah, I mean, possibly. I was born and raised in Britain. I didn't move here until the year 2000. So, you know, I went to university, I left school at 16 and got a job at a helicopter factory, of all things. and ultimately went to university and then came here as an exchange student. And then ultimately Moved over here and, been here ever since.
It was a three year plan that went wrong. So,
that was, uh,
[00:01:48] Jay: you exchanged the whole country.
[00:01:50] Fiona: Yeah, I really did. Yeah, and I went to Lehigh University, which was just up the
[00:01:55] Jay: Oh yeah. Yeah. I love the best zoo around. very cool up there. so you did not found Spring International. We were talking about that before the show you bought Spring International. So tell me the story of how you bought a company. I mean, did you, was that something you wanted to do? Did, were you, what did you lead up to doing that?
Like how did that happen?
[00:02:14] Fiona: Yeah, it's actually a bit of a crazy story. So I worked for a different firm when I first moved to the U. S. and once I was actually pregnant with my first child, I was looking for another job that was a little bit more flexible. so I googled research in Philadelphia and found this company, and called the CEO and said, Hey, I think you should hire me, which I don't know whether that was pregnancy hormones or what that made me do that.
And I'm after a little convincing, he actually hired me. and then I started there as a researcher, and that was 20 years ago. And I stayed there and I became what I would call an accidental CEO. So at some point he said he was getting ready to retire, and hadn't quite decided what he was going to do, whether he was going to sell the company or just close it out. And I said, please don't. I love what I do. I'm passionate about it. I don't want my job to go away. how about you give it to me? And he said, I'm not just going to give it to you. Imagine that. And so we, we had a conversation about how I could You know, buy the company out over a period of time. and then when he retired, I was a hundred percent owner and became a women owned business registered right away.
And it's been mine ever since. And, but it was never my intention. It was more a case of how do I keep doing what I'm doing and take the reins.
So,
[00:03:39] Jay: doesn't get much more flexible than that. You just buy the company. That sounds that's what everybody should guys. If you want to be have your own flexible, income, just go buy a company.
[00:03:49] Fiona: of that was that, you know, it was established. We knew the clients, the customers knew me, you know, I knew how the company operated. So I had learned all that from him. And so actually buying it out was almost the last piece in the puzzle.
[00:04:06] Jay: what do you guys do?
[00:04:08] Fiona: So we are an employee research and people analytics firm.
which is a very complicated way of saying, we help companies to make more informed HR decisions. Whether that's employee engagement, talent acquisition, talent management, exit interviews, anything like that. We help clients by collecting their data.
[00:04:30] Jay: I have to assume there's a lot of fluff companies out there that don't really provide a ton of value. In your space, right? It'd probably be, it's probably easy to just get a bunch of surveys, provide some data and then move on. How do you guys really make sure you're providing value and like actionable insights to your customers?
[00:04:50] Fiona: Yeah, I think there's a lot of companies out there and there's sort of a spectrum from those that just provide the software, right, who are just collecting data. You're, you know, you're survey monkeys of the world. And then there's the other end, which is sort of consultants who, you know, are just sort of providing advice and insight. We sit somewhere in the middle where we do the data collection and the insight. I think what sets us apart from our competitors is we're very customized. So we customize the surveys for our clients. So if they're in manufacturing or retail or healthcare, the questions that we ask are going to be very different because we're trying to better understand their workforce and how they can be better within their culture, within their business strategy.
So we're much more focused on. Not just are our employees happy, but how can their engagement improve business performance? So we're trying to be very tactical. and trying to make the work and the insights that we provide for them just very, customizable to the, where they are in their growth, their development. we typically work with larger companies. Um, you know, a thousand or more employees. Um, so, you know, anybody who has a lot of employees needs to hear from them. That's kind of the role we play.
[00:06:05] Jay: And how do you, like, after the fact, how is it kind of just in a continued engagement with these folks where you kind of just keep the cycle of, like, you know, improvements and I'm sure as a business owner, that's the relationship you would like to have is those continued long term engagements instead of, you know, chasing around new clients all the time.
how do you guys really. You know, measure your own performance. It's like an interesting question. Like, how do you, how does a survey company survey itself to know that, like, they're, you know, how to improve and get better?
[00:06:37] Fiona: Yeah, it's a great question. So, we really, most of the time it's a multi year engagement. So, you know, we're providing feedback and then we're staying with the client to make sure they have an action plan. And then we follow up with them to make sure that they implement it. And then we're coming back six months to twelve months later to test again and see whether they've actually made any change.
Now, the onus is on them to make the, changes, but we're really trying to give them very actionable recommendations to say, okay, you need to, you know, put this training in place, or you need to increase or change your pay and benefits, or you need to develop career paths for this certain role. So whatever it is, we're sort of trying to hold them as accountable as we can as a third party to actually making some change. and then we're putting measurements in place to see whether change happens year over year.
[00:07:26] Jay: And are there companies that are just doing this to check a box and are not actually, you know, doing some of the things that they are supposed to be doing?
[00:07:35] Fiona: Absolutely. I mean, there's lots of companies out there that just want a number. You know, how engaged are my employees? They want a number. They want to know that they're 65 percent engaged and that's it. And then they just sort of walk away. We tend not to work with those companies because the reason we're doing it, the reason that we exist as an organization is because we're passionate about improving the workplace.
Like, I want every employee to love their job as much as I do. So, I want these companies to change. So if a company comes to us and says, we just want a number. We're probably going to say we're probably not the right vendor for you
because we're really invested in making change and moving the needle for your business. that's not to say we wouldn't, you know, do a survey if we had to, but I think, you know, there's a difference between, there's nothing more frustrating. And I think that's actually really frustrating for employees. If we come in and ask a bunch of questions and then nothing ever changes, I think that tarnishes our reputation as much as the company's. So, you know, we're trying to work with companies who really want to make and see a difference.
[00:08:39] Jay: What's the, what's kind of an example of maybe the biggest impact you guys have had by just running your peer service, you know, your surveys, your feedback, and then kind of seeing the action happen. What was 1 of the biggest impacts you saw?
[00:08:54] Fiona: I mean, over the years it's been different. I think, you know, we've seen significant decreases in turnover. We've seen significant increases in engagement. We've seen improvements in sales and productivity. We've seen massive reductions of safety issues. You know, we've seen employees much more willing to advocate and refer other employees into the organization. So it really varies based on the industry. but for the most part, the biggest change we see is sort of a significant increase in engagement and a decrease in turnover, which in this tight labor market is really important, right? I mean, a lot of companies want to keep the talent they've got. and if they can improve their reputation in the marketplace as a good employer as well, they're going to attract the next generation that they need.
[00:09:41] Jay: How are you guys. Going after new clients today. How are you? Are you doing a bunch of marketing? Are you doing inbound outbound stuff? Are you kind of doing biz dev and these, you know, chamber events and stuff? How are you actually going out there to drum up new business? And
[00:09:55] Fiona: sort of have a multiple ways in which we generate new business. the most common is we do attend a lot of networking events locally. We also attend, industry conferences. so, you know, we might attend a retail conference, or a manufacturing conference. And then in addition to that, I probably do somewhere between 10 to 12 speaking engagements a year. So, you know, as a guest speaker or talking about, Either the work that we do, or a case study, or some of the data that we've generated. Because, of course, we're generating thousands and thousands of data points every week. Right? Of, you know, what employees feel like to work at X trucking company. Or, you know, Y hospital system.
Or this retailer, or that retailer. So we've got thousands of data points. So there's always a topic that we can talk about. In terms of what we're hearing, and who we're hearing it from. So I like to share that information back out there.
[00:10:52] Jay: can you use that information if it's kind of anonymized or whatever? Like, are you, are people like, no, don't use this data for anything else other than, you know, our purposes, you have to get sign off for that. How does that. Data process work,
[00:11:08] Fiona: For the most part, everything's anonymized if we're going to be sharing it. So you're not going to know who's what because, you know, that's confidential. But occasionally we'll have a client who will say, you're, we're happy to be a case study. They've either really liked the work that we've done, or they're willing to share their story because it puts them in a good light.
And in some cases, you know, they've been a co speaker with me at an event. So they'll come and share like this was the challenge they were facing and they used us and this is how they use the information to make change. That's the best case scenario for me, right, where a client is talking about what they've seen improve versus me saying it. I think anytime you can have a client speak for you in a positive way, it speaks volumes versus me saying, hey, I think we're great, you should hire us. It speaks volumes if the client says, hey, we work with them and they were, a real pleasure to work with. that's ultimately why I won. That's why I tried to keep my clients happy.
So we'll say nice things about us.
[00:12:04] Jay: right? How did you get started doing the speaking engagements, which was your like, how did you was your first one?
Oh God, it was so painful. So the founder You remember that very quickly, by the way, it
[00:12:15] Fiona: Oh God, it was so painful. So the founder of our company, Dr. Robert barrier was. incredible as a speaker, you know, he was an MIT Stanford grad, you know, worked in the political realm, was just a very great speaker. I, on the other hand, would much rather melt into the wallpaper.
I would much rather be looking at data in the corner of the room. and when I became CEO, my team basically said, you know, you're going to have to go out there and do that now. And I was like, Oh my God, no. And in the first year they signed me up, they signed me up to speaking engagements and they signed me up to small local county HR meetings and conferences.
So think like a Sherm. Like a local share event or, you know, and they sort of started at the county level and then they moved it to the state level and then took me national. But the first one, I think I threw up. I think I probably cried on the way there. I was shaking. It was, the whole thing was traumatic for me. but I got good feedback. People told me that what I was sharing was really interesting and useful. And I, that was the way I overcame it, right, was that I'm not talking about me. I'm not talking about who I am or anything like that. I'm just talking about data and I do this every day and I find it fascinating.
So if I can just talk about what I find fascinating and what I find interesting and exciting, it's easier for me. So, you know, practice and willingness to put myself out there was, that was probably one of the toughest things I had to do. And becoming a CEO is actually being willing to stand up in front of an audience and tell people this is what I do.
[00:14:09] Jay: As it sounds like the answer is yes, but has it gotten easier as you've done it.
[00:14:14] Fiona: Yes, it has. I think, you know, I always ask for feedback from people about how I can improve. and I do take that to heart. And I think, um, you know, I think when you realize the worst case scenario is actually not that bad. So I forget what I'm about to say. I've learned just own it. I've learned just go, I have no idea where I was going with that story. So I'm just going to tell you another one. So, you know, I've learned just to be sort of, humble and be myself. And if it works, it does, if it doesn't, Oh, well. So I think I tried to let go of the stress I would put myself under for it was probably unnecessary.
[00:14:58] Jay: Probably. Yeah. I'm kind of starting to do some of that. And so, yeah, all that resonates very near and dear to me about being terrified and, It's kind of, it's to some degree, like the smaller scale of that is when you start having to be a salesman for your company, right? Like, to get in front of people and you have to kind of put yourself out there.
And I think if you do that enough, the public speaking thing is just kind of an extension of that. And you're just kind of like putting on a presentation or a show or whatever it is. And, you know, are you, so do you can still consider yourself a salesman for your company?
[00:15:34] Fiona: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I do a lot of the business development. I do the sales meetings, any sort of in person sales pitch and you know, I've learned that, you know, I, and I think this is the same for a lot of small consulting businesses is that, you know, I don't sell stuff. I build relationships. So my job is to figure out what is your biggest pain point, what are you struggling with and what can I take off of your plate and how can I make your life easier?
And so, you know, I spend most of my time in a sales pitch asking them questions. You know, what is it that keeps you up at night? You know, what about that do you feel is in your control? What, how could you leverage data and information to better solve that? And how can I help you with it? So if I go in with it, with the idea that I'm helping them versus selling to them. They then are much better at articulating what they need and then I can come back with a better solution. And sometimes it will say, I'll say, you know what, it sounds to me like what you actually need is X, Y, and Z and we don't do that. But here's a strategic partner that I know who's really good at that.
So sometimes in that process of questioning, you know, it's more of a discovery process. and sometimes they don't have the resources or the data to do the kind of work that we do. and in those scenarios I'm giving them advice about You know what their next step might be or how they may move towards being ready to do like advanced analytics, for example So again, my sales approach is always what keeps you up at night And how can I help you with it versus we do surveys and we do X and we do Y They may not know how that can help them
[00:17:17] Jay: I have two questions. One is how do you handle that pivot from relationship building and being friendly and making connections to the sales pitch, right? Because there's a moment in time where you have to spin it a little bit into a sales thing. And how do you do that comfortably?
And two, does your accent help you? Doyou think stupid Americans like me, which I am enamored with, you know, accents. I think they're, they make you just sound like an exotic, you know, really cool person. Do you think that has helped you at all in your sales career?
[00:17:55] Fiona: I would like to think no, but I'm told that, I get a couple of extra IQ points for just having a British accent.
[00:18:01] Jay: You do, I mean, I'm sorry to tell you, you know, it's not to take anything away from, you know, the hard work you do, but you certainly get, you know, just a couple extra little points there,
[00:18:10] Fiona:
[00:18:10] Jay: for the
[00:18:11] Fiona: sothat definitely, I think it definitely helps. and in terms of the pivot point for me, it's usually. When I hear them articulate a problem that I do think we can help with, I will then lay out a couple of solutions. Let's say somebody says, you know what, we're losing all of our frontline employees, our customer service agents at such an alarming rate, we don't know how to keep them in the door. Then I will say, well, have you considered stay interviews? Or have you done an engagement survey to better understand what their issues are? Or have you tried this? And if they say no, I'll say, okay, well, I think you have a couple of options here. You know, a low cost option might be a quick pulse survey to ask them some key questions. A more, you know, in depth might be, you know, we could come on site and do some stay interviews for you to understand the real issues. Or, you know, maybe you could do some exit interviews. So we could, you know, then we start talking about it, and then I'll typically say, What have you ever done in the past?
Have you ever done a survey in the past? What went well? What didn't? So then you start to talk about, That allows me to talk about the components of our research that might help them. Like, well, maybe you did the survey when I was on paper and it was really tedious. Ours are online, you know, super quick and easy to do. So I'm trying to find opportunities to sort of talk about the features that we might have in what we do. a great example is, you know, especially when, clients have multilingual employees, I'll say, well, in the past have you done your surveys all in English? And they'll say yes. Well, have you considered doing them in multiple languages so you get a better response from your non English speakers? And they're like, oh, you know, so, you know, and then I can talk about how our platform does that. So I'm looking for opportunities to share a feature or a service that could help them. But I'm not gonna say, hey, you should go for the Cadillac because that's what we do best. It's about what things I really think will fit them.
[00:20:11] Jay: It makes a lot of sense. do you, how do you deal with non engaged people at these companies that are hiring you to do surveys? I mean, if you run into them, or they're just like people don't. Want to do it and they're just, you know, all kind of putting kind of B. S. answers down and just clicking through and doing what they have to think.
How do you deal with that?
So one of the things, and this may set us apart a little bit from other vendors, is that we typically approach a project like an engagement survey, with two components. One is we're going to do a survey and we're going to collect data. The other piece is kind of like a communications campaign. That says, hey, this is what we're doing, this is why we're doing it, this is why it's important to you, this is what's in it for you. And so we spend a little bit of time before we do anything, educating the workforce. Educating leaders and educating employees that like, this is your chance. This is your chance to speak up and tell us what the issues are. Good or bad, right? So don't miss this opportunity. Like if you're upset, tell us. If you're happy, tell us. Like, so But that education piece, sometimes companies will just send out a survey and go, I don't know, nobody took it. Well, well that's because you didn't tell them why it was important to them, and why this was their chance, and why this is going to hopefully lead to change, and your employer cares enough to spend money on a survey, do it, tell them. Like, so I think that education piece and that communications campaign that runs parallel, With any survey, any kind of data collection, whether it's focus groups, interviews, surveys, whatever, on site time. You know, we've been to, I've been to, paper manufacturers, you know, fast moving consumer, good manufacturers, food manufacturers, trucking, train organizations, any, you know, any of these, we've been on site talking to employees. We have the ability to say, we're a third party, we're neutral, I have no, nothing to gain here, other than to be your voice piece to leadership. It's not my agenda. Make it yours. So, I think that helps. no, I could see the communications campaign. I mean, I think any, I was kind of trying to think back to any of the ones that I've taken. And it definitely feels like that piece was maybe missing, you know, it was more of just. Shows up in your email box one day and you like click through it just because you're about to go on lunch or, you know, whatever.
you told me, I think you said there was an interesting story for your first customer for the business's first customer. Who was the first customer for Spring, International?
[00:23:02] Fiona: So, who the very first customer was at Spring International was before my time, but I'll tell you who, I can't give you the name of the company, but I
will tell you,
[00:23:11] Jay: fine. Yeah.
[00:23:12] Fiona: I will tell you for me, the very first sales pitch I went on at Spring International was with a very large national retailer. Um, Fortune. you know, 100 company. And for me, you know, this was huge. This was a company that I had read about in business books, right? Coming out of business school, I was like, wow, I get to go here and pitch the executives. And it really was a very, intensive purchasing situation, right? They had a room full of people in like a horseshoe shape or sitting around and they bought in every consulting company to pitch to them. And we were, it was like a horse and pony show. And, you know, we were bidding against, like, the McKinsey's and the Gallup's and the big Consulting Five. And then it was me and my boss at the time, you know, not in suits, not in, you know, there was all these sort of black consultant suits sitting out in the hallway.
So we had to sit out in the hallway with all the other vendors that were getting pitched,
which is an uncomfortable situation to be in, in the first place. They brought us in, we were like, I think, the last but one group to go in, and it was just the two of us. Right. We just, you know, actually there was three of us and we had one guy who was with us who had lost his suitcase on his way in. So it was in jeans and a t shirt. And I said to my boss at the time, how on earth are we going to get through this? Have you seen like every person going in before us? We look like the motley crew. how are we going to do this? And he said, you know what? We are who we are. If they like us, they're buying us. If they don't like us, they won't. So we took the heat and the stress out of the moment. And then we walked in like this ragamuffin group of people. And, the first thing he said was, I'm going to tell you a story about why we're here today. And he explained how we've flown across country, we've lost suitcases, we haven't got the right clothes on, but we really want to work with you.
And we've come through all that and we're going to tell you who we are and what we do. And he had said to me before we walk in, whatever happens, just keep talking. Just keep going. Right in the middle of our presentation, our PowerPoint died, everything, and I just kept talking. I just kept talking. He talked over it, eventually came back up, and we won that pitch against all those other competitors. And we asked for feedback afterwards, and they said, you guys were hungry, you wanted it, you said you wanted it, and you stood out from the crowd. And I thought that is not what I expected from this big fortune company. Um, and I'll remember that until the day I retire, that being yourself, being who you are in our business, they're ultimately buying people. And if it's going to be a good fit, they're going to buy you. And if it's not a good fit, they're not going to, and walk away with a smile. and I've just sort of followed that theme. Path ever since but it was an intimidating first customer to
[00:26:32] Jay: Wow. That may be my, one of my favorite stories of all time. And I think you're, I, you touched on probably one of the most important. And you hear it all the time, but people buy you, they are not buying. There's lots of people that sell the service or the product that you sell. You're nobody's as unique as they think they are, as far as their offering goes, but what you can be unique on is you as a person and your passion for what you're selling and providing value and all these things.
So, Let's end it there. We're not going to top that. That is probably the coolest. That's like, I mean, I felt my heart racing while you were telling that story. So I can only imagine, how that went. So if people want to find you Fiona, to reach out, if they want to find, you know, spring international, how do they do that?
[00:27:18] Fiona: So we have a company website, which is spring ITL comm or you can look up Fiona Jamison On LinkedIn and connect with me there and I'd be happy to connect with anybody who's passionate about people analytics and you know, we love what we do and We'll tell you what we don't do, too. Right? we're very transparent about who we are and what we do, and we're also, happy to talk to companies, you know, who are just looking for some insights.
We'd love to talk to customers. Yeah.
[00:27:47] Jay: you were a lot of fun. You have some great stories and, I can't wait to see you at the next chamber event.
[00:27:52] Fiona: I'll be
[00:27:52] Jay:
yes, I'm sure you will, enjoy the rest of your week. Thank you so much for you. And I'll talk to you soon.
[00:27:56] Fiona: Thank you so much. Take care.