[00:00:27] Jay: Hi, everyone. Welcome to The First Customer podcast. My name Jay Aigner. Today, I'm lucky enough to be joined by two gentlemen,from England across the pond, as they say, Victor C, Matt A. Welcome, gentlemen. Thanks for joining me. how are you guys doing today?
So there's step labs. Step labs was the, is the current iteration. I met Victor first, like I was saying, before the show, he said we should talk to Matt. We grabbed Matt. Now we have the StepLabs kind of leadership, team together. I know, Matt, you've kind of got more of a background in design, I think, and Victor's a little more of the tech guy.
Matt, talk to me a little bit about where you came from, and a little bit about your entrepreneurial journey to get you to StepLabs.
[00:01:03] Matthew: Yeah, sure. So I think growing up, I was always keen on becoming an entrepreneur. My sister runs a successful e commerce business and my brother ventured into entrepreneurship. So I was the youngest. So I was kind of looking up to them and their successful ventures. the way the step lab started was really interesting.
I didn't actually have plans to start an agency at the time, but my final year at university, I was working full time as well. Working as a UI UX designer for a startup and when you work in tech people who don't work in tech will frequently Assume that you can do anything and everything. So I had someone asked me one day Hey, you know I'm working for This lady at the moment has got this business idea.
She wants to build like an e commerce platform. Is this something that You'd be able to help with so Shopify multi vendor marketplace Now the timeline was like six months on this and, yeah, I was intending on doing it, like alongside my job and keeping it as a side hustle or just like a one-off project.
And then I really thought to myself, if I don't have a website, I've never done any marketing for this and I can secure. One customer that was high, like a higher ticket than I would have expected, I'm pretty sure if I put my mind to it over a period of 12 to 18 months that I could build a business around this.
And that was one of the joys of kind of being young, which meant that when I was in that final year, like finishing at university, I had like the, runway to see if StepLabs was going to take off before deciding what I was going to do next. And fortunately, it lifted off really well from there. in our first year, we completed over 40. design and development contracts, across Webflow and Shopify. since then, since January, we've built, I think now eight or nine web applications using local tools like Memberstack and Wiz. So it's gone really well. It's been a, it's been a great journey. And, there's obviously a very exciting next step for us soon, which is where Victor, we look forward to Victor really helping out with, Which is separating the Webflow agency from the Shopify agency with our Shopify agency, focusing specifically on our CRO service. And, we can kind of get into the depths of why we've decided to, separate out like that, later on. But that's kind of a summary of how I got here, I would say.
[00:03:18] Jay: Love it. I think most people know what Shopify is. What's Webflow for those who don't know what Webflow is?
[00:03:30] Victor: Webflow. I think Webflow, how I would describe it is just WordPress, but just better in every single other way. and most people know what WordPress is. I'm assuming if you've heard of websites, you've come across WordPress. So yeah, Webflow, I think it was founded in 2015 and it's just this new tool that allows people to build websites significantly faster, easier. And I think it's got a great online library of resources. So it's easy to learn. They've got a really, really strong community behind it. Just, I think, about a week today, a bit week ago today, I was just at a Webflow event in Manchester in the UK. And yeah, you can tell everyone who uses Webflow is super passionate about it.
yeah, I think Webflow is just great for building websites. You can also build web apps on it now. And they're always putting out new features and making the platform better. And, yeah. That's it, yeah.
[00:04:27] Jay: side of things, I think, at least from what I gather so far. what was your start to your journey? Where'd you grow up? and how did you end up kind of going the solopreneur, entrepreneur route that you got, hooked up with Matt?
[00:04:37] Victor: where did my journey start? Well, where was I born? I think we'll start from there. I was born in Nigeria. So, my parents moved over here when we were five. moved over to Bolton. Sunny, sunny Bolton. yeah. So, how did I get into web development? I think about three years ago. Actually, a bit more than that. About five years ago, there's this website called FreeCodeCamp. If anyone wants to become a developer, check out FreeCodeCamp. org. It's amazing. it's where you can learn how to code for free. so yeah, my dad put me on there. And I learned how to code HTML and CSS for about, let's say, two months, three months. but then it was just one of those things that you learn and it never came to me. I never needed it. But then, I think about two years ago, this funny little thing called COVID came around. And, yeah, everyone was trapped inside their house. And it was kind of like, what do you do with all the spare time? So, I finally dug up this skill of how to code, and I realized, okay, I can now build websites with this, and I've got the time for it, there's nothing else to do. so yeah, I built some websites, just for the fun of it, during the time, and then I built a website, fully custom coded for my friend, which was Yeah, painful experience.
If you've ever built a website fully from scratch, from code, you understand how painful it is to change things and edit things. even just small changes, you have to go download a zip file, minify it, all this nonsense. So, yeah, that's how I got into working with websites. And then I realized, oh, you can get paid for this. So then I went on a rampage building websites and trying to learn as much as I can about dealing with clients, getting clients. I think the first website I did was for like about 50 or something. so come a long way from those amounts. but yeah, it taught me a lot about websites and I got to learn how to use stuff like WordPress.
And then from WordPress found about Webflow. And then from Webflow found out about Shopify and e commerce. Yeah, excited to keep on learning and, adding more skill sets to, what I know, I guess. So you guys linked
[00:06:36] Jay: So you guys linked up at some point and realized your skill sets complement each other. Not exactly the co founder, you know, typical co founder relationship where you kind of were like, Hey, we're going to go build this thing together. It sounds like Matt, maybe you had a little something going on. Victor, you had something going on.
How did you guys meet and, you know, Victor or Matt, however you guys want to answer this, but how did you guys meet and How did you decide? To actually take the leap because it is a big leap right because you're doing something by yourself. You're super flexible You've got all this time. You've got all these things you can do What was kind of the linchpin that went?
Okay We've got to pull together and kind of pull our resources and that'll help us, you know, make our business better businesses better And, you know, at the end of the day, more profit, right? I mean, that's kind of the goal, is to make more money when we're all doing this stuff. So, how did you guys meet and how did that process work?
[00:07:28] Victor: a ship of
[00:07:30] Matthew: Sure, so I think when we met was I had a particular Shopify project that needed a relatively quick turnaround. And,
[00:07:39] Victor: to do
[00:07:40] Matthew: We met through LinkedIn and we had a conversation like an hour later and, I could, Vic was probably a bit earlier in his, development journey at that stage. But when we worked on projects over the following three to four months, I was quite impressed with, well, I was very impressed with his, ability to communicate as well as his technical ability. And it's very rare in terms of a Venn diagram, it's difficult to find people with a high level of technical ability, but also the ability to communicate at a high level. So whenever you find an intersection there, I think those are really valuable people to kind of bring on board. And I think what ended up happening was the projects that we were working together on, probably it's fair to say, were constituting the majority of the revenue for VIX. like freelancing, kind of agency at the time. And so it kind of just made sense from a financial point of view to pull resources and kind of empower Vic to build out our Shopify team himself. and lean on the resources that we had available and the clientele that we've had access to prior to that. so that he can succeed at a higher scale. and, yeah, I think we worked really well together from the start. And. for that basis. it kind of happened gradually. It wasn't really like a plan from day one. But, Yeah, that's kind of how we came together to work together.
[00:09:10] Jay: And Vic, I'm curious, did you struggle with the thought of losing ultimate control at all? And kind of, you know, stepping back into a of having a partner in crime? Did you and you know, I mean I would assume kind of like I said doing everything you want to do whenever you want to do It the profits a hundred percent yours Walk me through a little bit of just your personal kind of thought process and Matt feel free to cover your ears if there's anything But if there's there any you know, is there questions about you know Do I really want to do this or do I want to do it on my own?
[00:09:58] Victor: Perfect. It's it wasn't too sudden. It was came at the right time and we really got to test each of her out in a sense, see how each of the works before we ever got into anything committed. So I think if you ever find their business partners, probably the best way to do it. I think the power of linked in is just super amazing. in terms of being able to let go of control, I think, yeah. It comes down to game recognises game, I think, so if you find somebody who matches your energy or even supersedes that your energy and your output and your hard work, you kind of don't mind working with that person because you know that they're working just as hard as you, if you do find someone who you deem to be, I'd say, lazy or someone you kind of don't respect at all, it's of course, it's going to be very difficult for you to let go of that control.
But I think for me, it was very easy to see Matt's If not more hard working than me, so it's very easy to know that once we put our forces together and we can go Go as far as we want to Yeah, so I don't think there was any super objections at the start, but obviously didn't rush into anything took my time with things and Made sure that yeah Even outside of just business, that we got along personally, because I think that's also an important thing. you don't want to work with somebody you don't personally like, somebody you wouldn't go out to have like a drink with after work, you know what I'm saying? So, yeah. I don't think there was any significant opposal to it, but I think it, like Matt said, just made perfect sense to work together. I
[00:11:26] Matthew: I think something to add to that is that, when we were working together on projects, generally, even on like the website builds, that Vic
was bringing in himself, they always needed a design anyways. So,
[00:11:39] Victor: anyway.
[00:11:39] Matthew: I was always fulfilling the design portion and he was fulfilling the development portion, even if I brought the contract in or he brought the contract in.
So then you start to look at it and you're like, well, I can't service my clients unless I have two of both of these skill sets in combination. Wouldn't it make sense to just do this together?
[00:11:59] Jay: Makes a lot of sense.
[00:12:00] Matthew: So, so with regards to your comment, Jay, on, on like splitting profit, it, it, nothing really changed because if you get a contract, let's say, you know, for X amount, and you need to allocate some portion of that budget to the design of that website being completed it that the profit still isn't 100 percent because you, unless you have a design and development skill set, you can't service the whole project yourself.
so yeah.
[00:12:26] Jay: that makes sense so I am interested in the splitting off of the businesses and maybe not as much for the operational side of things as I am the targeting side of things, right? I mean, I would assume
[00:12:39] Victor: your ability
[00:12:40] Jay: part of why you're splitting it off is specialty.
[00:12:43] Victor: right? Like
[00:12:44] Jay: Part of, you know, your individual kind of strengths, but also your ability to target those individual types of clients, right?
Like Webflow clients versus Shopify clients. How do you guys plan on targeting those different clients? And what's the real difference in your marketing or your sales or your message, right? Because you would, it's great to see you guys doing that split because a lot of times people try to do it all.
And as you know, when you guys are starting out, we all started out. You try to do everything for everybody and you do everything for everybody because it's money, right? You're like, oh my god I got this contract. This is great But as you guys have matured you've started to identify there's two kind of separate buckets that you want to go web flow and Shopify How do you guys plan on going after those two targets?
Simultaneously, right because you're gonna have to split your attention across both of those How are you guys gonna do that from a marketing and a sales perspective specifically
[00:13:38] Matthew: Yeah, so I think that's a good question. I think the way. That are what the majority of our web flow and web app contracts have come in is through networking in the community building goodwill and securing referrals one of the challenges is that And I think that's important right because when you're starting out a business Hey, I really don't believe in the idea of niching down From day one. I think it's important to get some runway and some cash in the bank Before you niche down to an audience that you may not have validated as having demand for your services It's important to build up your portfolio and credibility before you get to the stage of niching down too hard. at this point, there are a few reasons why working primarily on CRO contracts is quite appealing. Firstly, it's generally considered like a monthly subscription service or monthly retainer. Whereas when you're just building websites or even web apps, those can often be considered as one off contracts. And I know that people do try to build the unlimited design, unlimited development model where they bill you X amount for continual work on your website.
But it's not been appealing to me to lock clients into work that we may or may not need to actually help them with. and I don't really believe in like locking people in to like the retainer model on like maintenance. I don't think that's the most ethical way to behave with your clients. CRO clients and focusing on DTC Ecom brands is really appealing because you can work with them over a continual period of time.
There's an understanding that, they will need to be testing. There's an understanding that this is something that is going to have to be worked on week and changed with adjustments to the data that comes back from A, B testing landing pages. But importantly, also, the service has a relationship to revenue. Because if you're not succeeding in month one, Or month two or month three, that can be, that can be clearly seen with regards to data. it's not kind of subjective in that sense. It's rather objective. And I think it's important to counterbalance the risks of having a business that solely depends on one off contracts, where one month you can make 50k and the next month you can make 10. That makes it very difficult to scale because you can't really forecast cash flow. You can't forecast, where you can invest and how you can hire people. Because you don't know with a decent degree of certainty whether the business is going to go up or go down the next month offsetting that by really nailing the CRO unit of the business provides a hedge against that volatility. so those are kind of some of the reasons I think that sent that switch has made sense. and I think also the final thing I would say on that, is really that I think as an entrepreneur. You can enjoy risk and you can enjoy doing different things on a day to day basis and solving different problems that are stressful, building a web app, and then going to web flow and then going to Shopify and then doing some changes here. Most people aren't like that. I think most people want to come into work and really nail solving one service type or solve solving a problem for one type of customer and becoming really good at that and nailing that so that they have a sense of security day to day. So I think in terms of building a more, enjoyable and let's say work wise consistent, business, it's quite important to, service one type of client at least for a half of the business and still do our crazy projects that we love doing on the other end.
[00:17:09] Jay: a lot of really good points in there Victor, how did you start to define who your customer was for your Webflow projects? and does that carry over kind of what you guys are going to be doing together? And how did you really start to hone in? And I really like Matt's point about not necessarily having to niche down Because it's such a common thing you hear from everyone It's the niche down But, to some degree, really understanding who your customer is Does make it a lot easier to go after Go after people, especially when you're starting out.
So how did you start to figure out, Hey, this is the type of person that's buying Webflow projects from me.
[00:17:47] Victor: Yeah, I think, before you were saying that a lot of people do kind of watch the YouTube videos to head niche down and they just take this as gospel truth. one thing about when you start a business, especially if you have no previous experience in it is You have no previous experience in it. You have no idea what's going on You don't know who the clients are.
You don't know where to get started. You don't know what lead gen is You don't know project managers. You have kind of no clue. so when you Go into the idea of niching down even if it is something that does interest you that does make it easier for sure but you have no idea whether you'll like it in the end So that's why I do agree with Matt's point.
It's good to try a few different things, like try maybe building a web app, or maybe try some Webflow stuff, try some other things, some web devs, see what you actually enjoy, because once you find something you truly enjoy, it makes work doesn't feel like work anymore. so yeah, it's kind of answer your question about how I got, you know, drilled down on the ideal Webflow client. I think it's just looking at where I got my customers from. Because at the start, there wasn't any real strategy, it was just kind of, okay, cool, let's send a message here, let's just be consistent, because I think that's the main thing. I think hard working people will win in the end, regardless. So, yeah, just looking at where I got my current customers from, so I think I had a few different accountants I was working with, so I realized, okay, accountants usually have terrible websites. It usually can get more leads from their website, so maybe we'll go after accountants. And I think I did something in the region of tax people as well. So, looking within and then also at the start looking at where you get off. I mean, from wider families, also a good way to start. this can be hard for. I guess a lot of people because maybe you don't have people who are in your family that run a business I did the same thing. I had the same issue, but you just have somebody who needs a website somewhere So I think I made a few websites for a couple people who ran like a church. in my wider family, So yeah, just people people like that and you can get more experience and you know kind of find out who needs a website who values the website the most and then I guess I wasn't I guess I was kind of sold on Webflow from like the first few times I used it, but then once you do more projects with it and you find out just how functional and it is, you just end up loving it.
So, yeah, that's what sold me in Webflow as well. The friends and family plan. I
[00:20:08] Jay: The friends and family plan. I say it all the time, man. Go ask your friends and your family and your network
[00:20:16] Victor: of the
[00:20:17] Jay: if they're interested in the service that you're offering. Why on earth? I mean, you've already built the trust up over your life. Right, and that's one of the biggest things, you know, knowing that people is this part of the battle and then having people trust you is kind of the other part of the battle and you've already solved two of those things just by talking to Your 15th cousin or your aunt's bro, you know, whoever it is, right?
[00:20:40] Victor: it's somebody in your network, your friends, your family. Like it's a great point. and I constantly say that, especially if you're going on doing consulting, like there's no reason why you shouldn't just start in that Avenue. any hang
[00:20:52] Jay: this question would be kind of cheap to both you guys, but Matt,
[00:20:55] Victor: did, how
[00:20:56] Jay: you can start.
Did you have any hangups being a salesman for your own business? And if you did, how did you start to kind of get over that? How are you continuing to get over that? Did you have any sales training, and how are you kind of just taking on sales? you know, as a guy with a couple of business avenues you're going after, how are you attacking being a salesman?
Because you are right. it's a weird thing to think of as a CEO or a founder of a company. You're like, I'm not a salesman. And then one day you go, wait, I am the salesman. I have to sell this stuff. So did you ever struggle with any of that? And how did you overcome it if so?
[00:21:29] Victor: of that, and how did
[00:21:30] Matthew: Yeah, so I think I was quite fortunate in, in, in that, regard. I've never really felt uncomfortable with sales, I've always been rather,
[00:21:36] Victor: very specific thing, Very specific
[00:21:37] Matthew: probably more extroverted. and I have a passion for kind of connecting with people and having conversations with them. I think, that one of the things people do struggle with when they're selling a technical service is delving too deep into the weeds and not connecting with the person as an individual. And at the end of the day, I know, I think this is something that technical people struggle with more. then people who aren't technical in, at least in my experience, which is understanding that sales is based on emotion isn't always a rational decision. when you're connecting with someone on a call, it's more about how you make them feel about the prospect of working with you as opposed to the logic behind the decision of working with you versus another agency. And I think it's very easy to get trapped in the. The nitty gritty, my service is better than this service because of XYZ. It's easy to get trapped in. I'm, I know that people love, this approach now, and I respect his work, but the whole Alex Hormozy, like, hundred million dollar offers, craft your offer, so it's like, you know, I'm gonna work with you, and within seven days, if you don't see a return, then you're gonna get, I'm gonna pay you three grand, and you're gonna get all your money back, and that's fine, and that on paper makes the decision look rational, but, Until you can get into a room and have a conversation with someone and connect with them as an individual and that person comes away thinking, Do I actually quite like this person?
I wouldn't mind having a drink with them and actually working with them on difficult problems. And I think that they have the integrity to pull through for me on what they say. Then I think you will kind of struggle with sales.
[00:23:04] Jay: It's funny that I think we were both thinking of Alex Hermosi on a couple of these points where, again, yes, there's some great stuff in some of the, you know, his content that's out there, but I think I was thinking of him when you were talking about the niche down thing like it's just so it's preached so hard and it's like assumed that, You're just gonna go make this very specific thing for this very specific person.
You can charge him 500 an hour because you're only targeting like a very specific group. So it's funny you brought up his name because, you know, the more, you know, and the same thing with like the Tim Ferriss's of the world and like all the people that you hear about all the time. you know, there's some lessons in there for sure, but you can't live, you know, word for word by those guys because different stuff works for every person.
But like you said, I think the connections are huge.
[00:23:48] Victor: point there is that
[00:23:50] Matthew: yeah, and I mean also the other point there is that there's a latency to the validity of what they're saying. And what I mean by that specifically is that these guys are talking about things that worked for them six years ago. They're worth hundreds of millions now. They're not in the trenches getting their first million and it's a different ballgame And marketing
[00:24:08] Jay: they're pitching at you. They're selling you. They're not selling their services at that moment. They're selling to you. They're trying to, they're using their methods to sell to you. Like to sell this book or sell this program or sell whatever. So it's a, I think it's a really good point that, it may have been a while ago.
Not that it's, you know, still maybe still not valid. But, what about you, Victor? Do you have any, kind of hesitancy being the sales guy for yourself? and getting yourself out there and. Trying to figure out, like, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna be the guy for my business, my Webflow firm, I'm gonna have to be the one that's front and center.
[00:24:39] Victor: gonna have to be the one that's front and center. I don't want to say alienated from sales a bit more, but you definitely struggle with it more because you get, as you said, just too deep into the functionality of it. So when you're on the sales call, you kind of forget you're trying to kind of pitch that person that you're the perfect person for them and that you can solve their problem without getting too deep into the technicals, the scope and all that good stuff. yeah, so. Me and sales have we've had an interesting journey. I I think i'm i'm trying to get better at it, with every opportunity I can Yeah, I don't think sales is something that I would be Scared of shy away from it's definitely something I would enjoy doing. and yeah, for most of the clients I did cause I did have, you know, sales calls with them and I didn't have the, you know, the typical scripts that, you know, you walk and ask them these questions and then it just go perfectly to plan. It was just kind of more, no plan, just kind of. answer the questions as best you can and see, see what works, see what sticks. So yeah, I think definitely could improve my sales skills, but, in terms of sticking, what was I going to say? Yeah. In terms of just being able to hold down sales for business, I think, yeah, it's definitely an important role and anyone who is starting a business, I'd say. That's probably the number one thing you should focus on. and then service delivery should be, if anything, just as important. because once you have extreme confidence in the work that you do, sales becomes super easy. if you can walk into a room, for example, with an e commerce client and say with confidence, Hey, I'm gonna improve your sales by 20%. And you mean that, and you've got the case studies behind it. I think sales will just come a bit more naturally to you, so, yeah, instead of trying to find out the new latest sales technique, and you pause here, and you do this, and you dress a certain way for the sales call, I think just spend that extra time becoming really, really good at the thing that you do. And, I think clients will definitely feel that.
[00:26:42] Jay: Love it. All right, let's finalize this episode with one question to both you guys. Non business related. It could be physical, altruistic, it could be whatever you want. Matt, I'll start with you. If you could do one thing in the world, and you knew you couldn't fail, What would it be?
[00:27:02] Victor: be? Start because you can... Do one thing in the world and
[00:27:07] Jay: See, Victor gets a little bit of a head start because he gets to hear the question first. This is one that always makes people think a little bit.
[00:27:12] Victor: today. That's a, that's one you can start right now. that's a good, good answer. I never actually...
[00:27:26] Matthew: This is kind of meta, but, um, I would start a podcast for no business reason, but purely to speak to people that I find interesting in long form discussions. that would be what I'd do.
[00:27:41] Jay: Hey man, you can do that without failing today. That's a, that's one you can start right now. that's a good answer. I never, I have not heard start a podcast, as any answer. Victor, what do you got brother?
[00:27:56] Victor: I mean, mine doesn't even make logical sense. Mine would be to be omnipresent in some ways, be able to kind of time travel and just live a lot of different experiences, if that makes any sense at all. I don't think you can fail that,
[00:28:11] Jay: have to this question can be whatever you want it to
[00:28:13] Matthew: My answer sounds incredibly unambitious.
[00:28:16] Victor: Yeah,
[00:28:17] Jay: Victor wants to invent time traveling and Matt wants to talk on Zoom calls. So that's, we're, the two extremes.
[00:28:25] Victor: yeah, no, I just think
[00:28:25] Matthew: bounded by reality.
[00:28:26] Victor: live Hey, I think there's a lot of experiences to live and I think You know, you have a certain amount of time in life to do all of them but yeah, if I had one random thing would be able to go and collect all those experiences and feelings If that makes sense, I
don't know if that would do
[00:28:43] Jay: makes, enough sense. It's fine. It doesn't matter. None of this matters. It's fine. That was, that's a great answer. I love both answers, actually, and,
[00:28:50] Victor: about you what's your answer to
that question
[00:28:51] Jay: God, I hate when people ask me that. I really do. that's my least favorite question I get asked on this show.
it's a stupid answer because it's like anybody's answer, but I would go skydiving because
[00:29:04] Victor: I know if I
[00:29:05] Jay: I'm a student pilot. And I love flying. But I'm terrified of heights. And I know if I got up in an airplane and I was about to jump out, I think I'd probably have a heart attack and die right there. So if I couldn't fail and I knew my parachute would open, I would probably just bite the bullet and go skydiving.
So, cheap answer, but, you know, That and, like, climb Mount Everest, I think, is the other one that I've said. Like, you know, just something kind of top of the top. But, alright. This was fantastic. I love meeting you guys. If people want to find you guys, how do they find StepLabs? How do they find, how do they find you guys individually?
Victor, why don't you go first? How do they find you guys?
[00:29:52] Victor: I think the link will be somewhere in this
[00:29:54] Jay: Yeah, I'll drop the link for sure. I won't make people try to spell your last name. I just, maybe so. They do VictorCHUK, maybe they'll find you pretty quickly. Matt, how do people get in touch with you if they want to reach out for you for projects or for anything else?
[00:30:10] Matthew: Yeah, so
just on the website or my personal LinkedIn. so Matthew and then A T A L A H. I'm, not on any other forms of social media at this time.
[00:30:18] Jay: Alright. Beautiful. Well, thank you gentlemen. I appreciate your time today and let's catch up again soon. All right, you guys be good. Thank you
[00:30:25] Victor: right, see
you
[00:30:25] Matthew: meet you Thank you for your time.
[00:30:27] Jay: See ya
[00:30:27] Victor: Yeah.